Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Koncretekid on September 10, 2016, 10:48:35 PM
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(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/koncretekid/KampL%20Dyno.jpg) (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/koncretekid/media/KampL%20Dyno.jpg.html)
I found this on Craigslist and couldn't resist. Unfortunately, the computer is not reading the floppy so I can't use it as is. K&L Supply whose name is on the manual claim no knowledge of it although they sold it around 1995. They referred me to the Carlson company who was the manufacturer, but they don't seem to want to help me get it working either. Does anyone have any knowledge of these machines?
Tom
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Nice score Tom. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
My bet is you need some kid who understands electronics and computers. He'll likely be able to hook it up to a modern laptop and make everything right. Google is probably going to be your very close friend for a while.
Pete
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Tom,
What kind of PC is it? Does it even "boot up" at all? If it is an XT or AT you are going to need somebody older and experienced with "Frankencomputers". There used to be programs for PC testing which evaluated performance, etc. An older computer tech might still have those diagnostic diskettes. Try cleaning the diskette drive, older computers stored in adverse environments can sometimes be "resuscitated" back to life. Or you might have to replace the drive. In any event the first place to look is the aforementioned older PC repair technician who has ACTUALLY worked on them. Another tip is that the "BIOS" might need to be "upgraded" to recognize this millenia, just to get it to "boot up".
It also would not hurt to ask the manufacturer for the original computer specs as delivered. At least you would know what it is supposed to be there, if they are co-operative.
Or you can call Kevin @ Performance Trends to see if he has a package to replace/upgrade the data accumulation. This assumes that the brake and other mechanical bits are in, or can be put into working order.
This is a great addition to your arsenal, but it is going to be a "project" in itself.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Nice score Tom. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
My bet is you need some kid who understands electronics and computers. He'll likely be able to hook it up to a modern laptop and make everything right. Google is probably going to be your very close friend for a while.
Pete
I have a daughter and her partner who are both electrical engineers, who have no clue about the older computers! Luckily, they may have friends who do.
Tom,
What kind of PC is it? Does it even "boot up" at all? If it is an XT or AT you are going to need somebody older and experienced with "Frankencomputers". There used to be programs for PC testing which evaluated performance, etc. An older computer tech might still have those diagnostic diskettes. Try cleaning the diskette drive, older computers stored in adverse environments can sometimes be "resuscitated" back to life. Or you might have to replace the drive. In any event the first place to look is the aforementioned older PC repair technician who has ACTUALLY worked on them. Another tip is that the "BIOS" might need to be "upgraded" to recognize this millenia, just to get it to "boot up".
It also would not hurt to ask the manufacturer for the original computer specs as delivered. At least you would know what it is supposed to be there, if they are co-operative.
Or you can call Kevin @ Performance Trends to see if he has a package to replace/upgrade the data accumulation. This assumes that the brake and other mechanical bits are in, or can be put into working order.
This is a great addition to your arsenal, but it is going to be a "project" in itself.
:cheers:
Fordboy
The PC is a 486 IBM type that was manufactured in 1995. It does boot up with a couple of error messages regarding the CMOS drive and the floppy disc drive. The CMOS drive has a lithium 3v battery which apparently operates the RAM and communicates with the BIOS (I learned these terms overnight), which I understand must be replaced every 5 years. So I investigated and found out that the battery is spot welded to 2 flat metal contacts. Now there's a good idea - - weld the battery connectors in place.
I have a lead on some old computer techs which I'll try this week. There is a "Data acquisition" board in the computer that can be transferred to another computer if necessary, and I just hope the floppy disc I have (the original one) is not compromised.
This dyno is an accelerometer type unit, so is basically just a very heavy drum with a Hall Effect or other magnetic pickup and a hand held button to start the timing cycle. Knowing the inertia of the drum and the time it takes to accelerate it from a given RPM to maximum RPM will generate a torque and hence a horsepower curve with the correct software.
Thanks for the name you supplied, and I will be contacting him if necessary.
Tom
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Tom:
PM sent.
Pete
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If you can figure out the settings and "if" you can get the thing to communicate with a new computer.
Here is a link to free dyno software. It's what the folks use at Dayton Dyno...
https://www.sportdevices.com/download.php (https://www.sportdevices.com/download.php)
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Got the Dyno working last week, with some new(used) acquisition hardware from Jacksoni, and some new software from Performance Trends. I haven't been able to try the race bike yet, as I've already had a noise complaint - - from my wife! So I'm working on a muffler system using a 4" x 30" x 7" truck muffler, but am waiting for some proper hose.
Here is the BSA B50SS street bike on for testing:
(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/koncretekid/PlumCrazy%20on%20Dyno.jpg) (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/koncretekid/media/PlumCrazy%20on%20Dyno.jpg.html)
From the back. I had to buy a new computer, which was cheaper than getting an older model upgraded. So far, so good.
(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/koncretekid/PlumCray%20on%20dyno%20rear%20view.jpg) (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/koncretekid/media/PlumCray%20on%20dyno%20rear%20view.jpg.html)
The pickup uses a magnet epoxied to the wheel.
(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/koncretekid/Dyno%20pick-up.jpg) (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/koncretekid/media/Dyno%20pick-up.jpg.html)
Funny how accurate photos can be. While reviewing this pic I see that the magnet has already picked up a lot of "fuzz" which I hadn't noticed before.
And I'm working on a starter motor, as my race bikes have no starter or even a kick starter. This is the mechanism but the wheel that is mounted on the starter is only a dummy as I'm waiting for a proper polyurethane faced drive wheel.
(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/koncretekid/Starter%20motor%20on%20Dyno.jpg) (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/koncretekid/media/Starter%20motor%20on%20Dyno.jpg.html)
This is the starter linkage. Hopefully, I'll get the muffler set up and the starter working next week.
(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/koncretekid/Starter%20Linkage%20on%20dyno.jpg) (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/koncretekid/media/Starter%20Linkage%20on%20dyno.jpg.html)
The torque and horsepower numbers I get will only be relavent for making improvements because I can't determine the exact moment of inertia of the wheel. I've made an estimate and calibrated the horsepower to a stock Yamaha SR500, which was claimed to have about 32 horsepower.
I'll post more photos when I get the race bike on for tuning.
Tom
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Nicely done Tom. That should be a great addition to your program. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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can you find out how much the wheel weighs?
G
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The numbers are just numbers.
Finding out if you're making improvements is what he can do now.
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and after Bonneville, you will have a speed to go with a number.... :cheers:
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can you find out how much the wheel weighs?
G
The short answer is no. There is a number stamped on the perimeter of the wheel which reads 14.xxxxx, which a tech from Dynojet told me is the weight in slugs which equals about 460 lbs, but that number does not work for the weight of the wheel. It is way heavier than that. The sides are solid and I've drilled 2.1" into them, ditto the drum itself. But it's apparently not solid because assuming it is solid (1308 lbs.) results in too much horsepower for the little Yamaha. The Performance Trends software offers a dyno spec window that lets you enter parts of the wheel and the material (steel) and then does the calculation for rotational moment of inertia. By using 2-1/2" for the two side flanges, and a little over 2" for the drum as well as a "coast down" test which determines the resistance of the rear wheel and chain, I arrived at the 32 horsepower I was looking for. That's certainly good enough to make before and after comparisons of any changes I make. It remains to be seen if I can dredge any more ponies out of the old BSA, but I'll try. Unfortunately, I'll be going back to N.S. at the end of May, so I don't have a whole lot of time for any major changes.
Tom
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Tom, one tip the manuals never tell you with this type dyno is to never use the bike's brakes to slow it down after a run, it will fry the brakes in seconds. Lots of Dynojet operators have learned this lesson the hard way.
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Also, it is imperative to tie the bike down in both directions... And don't try to bump start the motor from the speed after the run.
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Tom could you take the Yam to another Dyno get some results then fiddle with the software to replicate it.
Good advice on overrun from the roller you will need to be careful with the BSA gearbox,i usually pull the clutch and use the dyno's brake to slow down then select neutral once stopped.
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Drag chute won't do? :roll:
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Tom, one tip the manuals never tell you with this type dyno is to never use the bike's brakes to slow it down after a run, it will fry the brakes in seconds. Lots of Dynojet operators have learned this lesson the hard way.
This dyno has no brake! Allowing it to slow down on its own takes about 3 minutes, which incidentally is how I performed the coast down test to determine rear wheel, chain, and bearing drag. As a result, I have to use the bikes brake to slow it down as gently as I can. So if the rear brakes wear out, I don't really need them anyway.
Also, it is imperative to tie the bike down in both directions... And don't try to bump start the motor from the speed after the run.
Like transporting a bike in a trailer or on a truck, I always tie the bike down with 4 straps. On the rear wheel, the tie downs don't want to be too tight and the tire pressure needs to be at the upper limit of their rating to prevent excessive drag.
Tom could you take the Yam to another Dyno get some results then fiddle with the software to replicate it.
Good advice on overrun from the roller you will need to be careful with the BSA gearbox,i usually pull the clutch and use the dyno's brake to slow down then select neutral once stopped.
Andy, I could test one of the bikes on another dyno, but the dyno guy I used before (Dan Dunn) has left the area. By using the Yamaha factory rating, I should get some "happy horsepower" numbers anyway. And as for not downshifting while the wheel is spinning, I think I've already learned the dangers of that - - twice! Remember my infamous transmission swap at Bonneville last year?
Drag chute won't do? :roll:
Good idea Jack. But I haven't figured out how to get the dyno moving fast enough to make that work! Although the wheel did slow down a bit faster when the tail end of one of the tie-down straps got caught in the rear wheel.
Tom
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Latest update on the old Dyno is shown in the following photo. It shows the new brake shoe I've added as well as the polyurethane capped starting wheel on the starter motor. Both features work well so I'll be able to save some brakes on the old bikes. The brake shoe is custom made with dual 3/16" steel supports which were radius'd on a CNC mill to get the exact radius I wanted. I then had a piece of 1/8" plate rolled to fit and welded the supports to the shoe. The brake lining I picked up on Ebay as sold for old tractors thru which we drilled a dozen holes, counterbored for rivet heads, and fitted to the shoe. The lever mechanism is self energizing and is welded to a piece of tubing with bushings so it operates separately from the starter with which it shares the shaft. The pedal is not shown here but protrudes up thru the floor of the Dyno adjacent to the right side of the bike, same as the starter pedal does on the left side.
Hopefully I'll get a couple of bikes on the Dyno this week.
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Looking good! :cheers:
Nothing like being able to gather data at your own pace in house when you want to.
Ed
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Thanks, Ed, but unfortunately, the dyno is in Colorado and my race bikes are now in Nova Scotia! It's getting tougher to make the long drive between places.
Hope to see you in Loring where I'll be bringing the B50/ 600cc with the new rear suspension and a longer tail, as well as a new untested B25 (250 BSA/Triumph).
Tom
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Tom,
My 4 mile drive between work places suddenly looks much better to me now!
We're currently getting the head back together with a better cam and valve springs to match. Still far from being a bullet but along with some other changes it's no longer a 'yard engine. Planning on being back in July to see just how many steps we can climb the speed ladder. Looking forward to checking out your new old iron, stealing tech, and picking your brain again.
Ed
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A short video filmed with my I-phone showing a dyno run with my BSA B50 Tracker project. I didn't have the hold down straps tight enough which is why the tire slipped upon starting. Quality with the I phone is poor, but it shows how it works. Performance Trends dyno hardware and software recorded a maximum horsepower of 37, but that is only comparable to my other bikes which showed as follows: BSA B44, JE piston +.020", electronic ignition, otherwise stock = 28 hp
BSA B50 SS, JE piston + .020", points ignition, otherwise stock = 31 hp
BSA B50 Land Speed Bike, punched out to 600cc, Megacycle cam and much, much more = 64 hp
This bike, BSA B50, +.020" JE piston, 32mm Amal carb, electronic ignition, Sifton HT cam, ported and dual plugged head = 37 hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShaNig9EpB8
Tom
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I've updated the old K&L dyno significantly with the addition of Performance Trends Datamite hardware and software, a new computer, and a full enclosure.
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Computer doesn't like my attachments so I'll try again.
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More photos: The exhaust flows into a 4" diameter truck muffler and then into one of those rubber garage hoses. I'd like to add a stack to get the noise directed more upward. We've got several horse farms within a half mile, so I have to be careful. Luckily, the immediate neighbors are all gearheads! I've also added a "leaf blower" at the front aimed at the motor for cooling.
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And more, no more than 500 KB per post. The fan bought on eBay as "surplus" was new and powerful enough for about 9 air changes per minute. Window in the back causes about a 10mph wind to flow thru. Side window came from local recycle facility and is triple glazed.
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And finally, the starter, made from a Dodge reduction gear starter and a polyurethane wheel is actuated by a foot pedal on the left. The brake shoe is fitted to the dyno wheel and lined with brake shoe material riveted on. It is operated from a pedal at the right of the operator. Before I had this brake in place, I burned up the rear disc brake on my APS bike as well as ruining the disc.
Also the view on the dyno room empty.
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That's a really nice installation Tom. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Tom,
That dyno is really nice!!! and serious! Looking at the numbers on your various bikes the 600 is really impressive. I live in Northern Cal and near Petaluma and Duke and I have our engine done by Engine Dynamics. The owner there is Mike Crowther who happens to have been the engineer at Triumph back in England that ran their research and dyno facility. They are probably the most expert at doing motorcycle head work in the US. They have done a number of research/development projects with the likes of Honda and KTM to name a few so if you ever need head work on your B50s you might consider them. They did the head on our 1000 cc Kawasaki and it is impressive. They have done a number of the 450s that are run on the flat track circuit and are getting 75+ hp from them.
Which meet are you planning to run this year? Duke and I are planning to do both Speed Week and the World of Speed.
Rex
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Rex,
World of Speed - -thanks for the advice and complements
Tom
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Tom,
See you there!!!
Rex and Duke
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Nice looking setup Tom! (is there a "jealous" emoticon anywhere here?)
Just got back inside from trying to split some firewood... ;)
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That Triumph tank on the BSA should add at least five horsepower.