Landracing Forum
Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials => Bville Motorcycle Speed Trials Rules Questions => Topic started by: 56KHK on August 31, 2016, 05:10:49 AM
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I am a fresh face and a bit ignorant, awaiting arrival of my 2016 rule book. I am building a blown fuel 56 KHK in an attempt to run in the MPS/VBF class. Can I use a 1972 frame? The only frame modification is altered front downcomer legs to accommodate the blower and a 3"-4" stretch of the rear swingarm. I believe I have the option to lengthen the swingarm by 10% of the stock wheelbase. The 1972 frame is my concern.
Jim Tarleton :cheers:
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Jim,
Send that question to the Motorcycle rules guy listed in the rule book
mcleishracing at gmail dot com
Derek should be able to help you out... officially
I think the vintage classes are just motors, and modified requires the same frame and motor manufacturer with some alterations allowed... but go to the horse for the right answer.... and then post here what he tells you.
Good luck with the project...
:cheers:
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CAUTION ALERT!!!
Stainless gave you the name of the SCTA guy -- and you've asked a question in the BMST thread. That would imply you need to ask for AMA-type rules.
Right, Stainless?
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Rats. I posted in the wrong place. It is the SCTA tech guy I need to contact. Give me some time and I will eventually catch on. New guys asking dumb questions must drive you guys nuts. I must admit I am having a lot of fun with this project. I am enjoying reducing my kids' inheritance. Wait until they find out I spent it for a ride on the Salt Flats.
Jim :dhorse:
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The only frame modification is altered front downcomer legs to accommodate the blower
Jim Tarleton :cheers:
If this is a perimeter frame you may have to work around those legs to stay in Modified Production.
7.F "Perimeter-type frame engine cradle tubes must remain unmodified".
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Every one that races Land Speed was a beginner at some point. This forum has provided me with a wealth of knowledge and insight. Keep the questions coming.
Joe
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Joe's right -- don't feel too dorky when you ask a question-- 'cause one of us has already cornered the dorky-market for that particular subject. At least come up with new dorkitude, okay?
Seriously -- welcome to the Forum. Don't be afraid -- you'll get a smart-acura response now and then, but mostly it'll be folks trying their dangdest to help you.
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Thanks, guys. I have wanted to run BSF's since I saw a picture of Bluebird in that pond. Life carried me in a different direction. Now I am retired and my wife left me for a younger man :-D (poor fool), so I can at last fulfill my dream. I love Harleys and I had this KHK engine that had been in my care for over twenty years. I saw one of those little Aisne blowers and i figured they would be a perfect match. Being an engineer, I figured it would be a breeze. I quickly found out there is NOTHING better than experience. I have enjoying the people I meet as much as the build. I hope I can pass it forward, if I ever know enough to pass forward.
Jim :cheers:
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Jim, where are you? How 'bout putting your location (town, state) in the profile page info so we can figure out if you're close enough to visit and drink all of your beer? Not me, you understand, but there are some on here that'd do such. . . :evil:
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The only dumb questions are the ones you don't ask! :x Jim, hurry or Slim will have you living in BF, Egypt! :-o :-D
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Too late!!! :evil: :evil: :-D :evil: :-D :-D
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Be careful on that swing arm stretch calculation. You are only allowed to add 10% from the most forward original axle slot position measured to the most rearward new axle position after the stretch.
For example: Say...you had a 50" stock wheelbase (at that position) and the chain adjustment range (slot length) were 3", the result would mean a max swing arm stretch of 2".
It's wheelbase extension, not swingarm length. I learned it the hard way.
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Thank you for that heads up. I was going to stretch it way too much. I need to speed a weekend or two with that rule book (on its way) to avoid stupid mistakes. I spent years reading the CFR's while sitting on the john. I'll do the same with the rule book. Shades of Smokey Yunick!
By the way, I live in Burgaw, NC. Burgaw is an Indian word for "stinking mud". I live on a 20 acre farm just outside of town. It's just me, my dog Boo, two horses, and four pigs that are all retired with me. I am somewhat hindered as a storm blew down my shop, and I am building this LSR in my kitchen - no kidding. I will start on my new shop this fall. Stuff happens when you think you are retired.
Jim :?
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I lived like that once. :cheers:
Welcome Jim.
Bummer on the storm. :evil:
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Well I guess I am psychedelic... you said you were waiting for a rule book and that means SCTA.... the AMA is online.... Did not even look at the thread location.
You will need to go in to your profile and fix your location... at least he didn't locate you in Nobals, Nevada...
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Lars (Octane) put a supercharger on an Indian single a couple of years back. It is wealth of knowledge.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5849.0.html
Joe
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correction 741cc v twin ...
Joe
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OMG, what a magnificent bike. I am awed from the get-go. I hope mine is half as nice.
Jim
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Lars is a frequent participant and he is helpful if you have a question.
Joe
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Patrick aka French Owl is the Bonneville KHK guru! :cheers:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,10404.0.html
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,13494.0.html
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oxJX61v0BM0/UgkBp7bJUpI/AAAAAAAAD9w/CGVc2XmoZM0/s640/11.jpg)
Graham :-D
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Thanks for the good idea, Stainless. You had the state wrong, though. . . :?
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Patrick aka French Owl is the Bonneville KHK guru! :cheers:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,10404.0.html
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,13494.0.html
Graham :-D
Patrick is a forum friend of mine. Super nice, and very knowledgeable, guy. I hope to meet, and out-run him, in 2017. I thought we would be in different classes, but now that I know I cannot modify my engine frame loop, and depending on how much I have to change my original design, we may not be.
Jim
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Thanks for the good idea, Stainless. You had the state wrong, though. . . :?
Nobals, ND? Sounds better than Burgaw, NC.
Jim :cheers:
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TKI One of my kids figured it out---he came out to the BSF in August as a rookie and now is pushing me to go back to WF :-D
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Hi Jim,
Welcome here, you're in good company!
Personally, I think a 72 frame is stretching a bit the vintage cut off date, but you never know until you ask and get the answer from the horse's mouth...
One could say a 100,000,000 year old dinausaur is the same family as a 200,000,000 one ; O )
Patrick
PS: Thanks Graham in Aus for pointing me towards this thread!!! I'm well and looking forward to saving some money and come again to Speed Week 2017... Richard is also tempted by another trip... What do you think? I'd love to have the old 2013 crew together, we did sterling work in that short space of time despite the problems... and a 121.775mph brass plaque to boast about : 0 )
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14232601_10208649321223411_7984686423888179077_n.jpg?oh=e7796bf88b4e2ac13ff072d9488dad35&oe=58548447)
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I think an argument can be made that the 1972 frame offers no advantage in strength, weight, stability etc. over the original 1956 frame except the longer (1.5"?) wheelbase. IIRC the KHK engine is a bolt-in in the 1972 frame, and a 1972 XL engine same in the 1956 frame.
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I hope you are right, Panic. If I have to replace it, it is what I call a useless cost. Mind you, I will do so if required. Finding a K Model frame isn't going to be easy by any means, nor cheap. So be it. I chose to chase the dragon.
Jim :cheers:
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Well I reread vintage under engine classes section and Modified.... No where I see that the years have to match, modified says same manufacturer. Of course the only opinion that counts is the SCTA Motorcycle committee.
If they shoot you down, your path is easy.... Special Construction...
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That is encouraging, Stainless. I am still awaiting a reply to my email. The break has given me more time to think about the repositioning of my blower.
I need to spend some serious quality time with the rules book. I had planned to cut the frame loop last week, but my GrassHopper mower cratered and I have been tweeking its limp carb ever since. Turned out to be a swollen float hitting the edge of the bowl. Lucky for me the Chinese make such crappy floats. I suspect the culprit is Seafoam.
Jim :cheers:
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Jim, I hope you got three rulebooks. One for the coffee table, one for the shop, and one for the back of the toilet.
You'll soon discover that I'm not really kidding -- having one right at hand is always good. :-D
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SSS, I remember Smokey Yunick and his "I read the rule book"comment every time he came up with a new trick that resulted in a new rule the following year. I was advised to buy a rule book before I ever turned a wrench. What did I do? I plunged right into the fray with no rule book. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Now I have to redesign my blower drive after spending no small sum, and a huge amount of time, building the one I thought would do the trick.
I can hardly await its arrival. I probably should have ordered three.
Jim :-D
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Jim, There is always "A" class (special construction) it opens up a lot of possibilities.
Don
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Jim, There is always "A" class (special construction) it opens up a lot of possibilities.
Don
That will be Plan B. I think they will allow me to use the 72 frame, since it is essentially identical to the 56 frame. I can't imagine why they would object. Still, I will abide by their decision. And you are right in that "A" classification opens a lot of new doors. The good of it all is that I have learned a very important lesson - listen to those who have been there and done that. Back to chasing the dragon.
Regards,
Jim :cheers:
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If you shop around, be careful - the K and KH frames are different, rake is shallower on the 1952-53 (and 54?), late KH is same as XL.
Remember that "V" is "pre-1956", but what that actually means is another question. When in 1955 your engine may have been produced (viz. September - December) is a historical question, be prepared. Tatro has been running a self-described later KR in vintage forever.
Important members: ignore this rant.
The purpose of the rule book is so you know who to ask when the rule offers no answer, or both answers (vague, inconclusive, self-contradictory, or allows something that will be ruled illegal if you use it. Google "Buick L8 head").
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If you shop around, be careful - the K and KH frames are different, rake is shallower on the 1952-53 (and 54?), late KH is same as XL.
Remember that "V" is "pre-1956", but what that actually means is another question. When in 1955 your engine may have been produced (viz. September - December) is a historical question, be prepared. Tatro has been running a self-described later KR in vintage forever.
Important members: ignore this rant.
The purpose of the rule book is so you know who to ask when the rule offers no answer, or both answers (vague, inconclusive, self-contradictory, or allows something that will be ruled illegal if you use it. Google "Buick L8 head").
Thanks for the heads up. I got my rule book today, and I have been reading it and watching Downtown Abbey. I think I have a good chance they will allow the 72 frame. No rule disallows it, but they may think it is not in the spirit of the game.
Back to reading.
Jim :-D
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I have been reading the Rules Book and I discovered on page 149, item 7.J.10 states that VF class is limited to engines produced prior to 1956. My engine is a 1956 KHK. Since it is identical to a 1955 KHK engine, I am hoping there is some way to get an exception. I tried to contact a person listed in the Rules Book with no success (probably a defunct email address). Can someone tell me whom I should contact that can give me a definitive answer as to whether I can use my current engine?
The alternative is to purchase a new engine, which I will do in a heartbeat if I can find one.
Jim :dhorse:
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Don't run for the cliff yet... The vintage rule at 56 is basicially to keep OHV Harley Sportster motors out of vintage. There is a thread on here somewhere about that. Use search function.
Are you sure you motor was made in 56... and not in December 55 for the 56 model year. I believe the ruling has always been if it is identical and provides no advantage over the earlier year it is acceptable.... because your 56 motor could have been produced before, and stamped for the next model year.
Don't figure "no immediate response" means it didn't get to the right guy, this is the busy season.... Give them some time, don't know what all you asked, but they may have to talk about it.
You can always call the SCTA office and ensure that the guy you are trying to contact has the correct email address listed.
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Thanks, Stainless. You made me feel much better anyway. I wasn't too worried about the lack of an immediate answer, I was just trying to reduce my suffering time. Once I have an answer, I will either go into "acquire" mode and quite worrying about it, or if the answer in in my favor, proceed as planned.
I will call the SCTA office as you advise.
Thank goodness for this web site.
Jim :cheers:
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My engine belly numbers show the engine was actually manufactured in 1955. How lucky can I get?
Jim :cheers:
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8-) beans Jim, stop fretting and start building :cheers:
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Stainless,
Right on! I am working on a quick change blower drive sprocket set up that would allow me to change blower OD ratios in about 15 mins using interlocking rings. I wish I could post pictures on this site, but regardless of the size of the picture i am trying too post, I am told I have too many characters. The problem is in my computer, and I need to get it resolved.
Jim :?
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Jim, try to change the names to something unique to you... like Jimkh121, Jimkh122 and so on, you should be able to post 4 pics 120K each...
If that does not work, email me the pics using the icon in my ID. I will see if I can post them because we all want to see pictures as you build
:cheers:
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Well, I believe I have discovered a way to enable quick change primary blower drive sprockets using the original primary drive sprocket nut. It will also enable me to use a remote starter to crank the beast. Take a look.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/zevron/56%20KHK%20LSR/Blower%20Drive%20Crank%20Setup.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/zevron/media/56%20KHK%20LSR/Blower%20Drive%20Crank%20Setup.jpg.html)
The cogged belt sprocket driving the blower is welded to the Pulley Ring...
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/zevron/56%20KHK%20LSR/Pulley%20Ring.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/zevron/media/56%20KHK%20LSR/Pulley%20Ring.jpg.html)
...which engages the Base Ring which is welded to the primary crank sprocket...
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/zevron/56%20KHK%20LSR/Base%20Ring.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/zevron/media/56%20KHK%20LSR/Base%20Ring.jpg.html)
... and a third Ring is present just for compressive fitment...
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/zevron/56%20KHK%20LSR/Ring.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/zevron/media/56%20KHK%20LSR/Ring.jpg.html).
The primary nut is pinned to the Pulley Ring to prevent being loosened during cranking operations (not shown in drawings).
It is a simple set up, as is most good solutions to complicated problems. There is one concern I will discuss later as I am looking for a solution to that issue as I write this.
Jim :cheers:
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Jim, I just read through your thread here, Might I say a couple things from another Newbie ?
First , I have to say all these guys who write back to you have a real wealth of knowledge, I love reading both
your questions and their answers .
Building in your kitchen, I bet there wasnt one guy here that read that and thought , Thats Weird !
On Reducing your Kids Inheritance , I say Hell Yes ! You earned it, You get to spend it, And when they find out as you said, Its for a
Land Speed Racer For Bonneville Sat Flats , I wish for you they take it like my kids and say, Awesome ,Your finally gonna race Bonneville!
And last, Again from a newbie to newbie, I ran Bonneville in 2014 & 2016 So compared to everyone, Im a Newbie, So might I say, As for your comment, Im going to meet him and I hope beat him, Im just sayin ,Dont get your hopes up on beating anyone, Last summer, Right after my third run of my life,I had No Traction and ran slower than before, As I sat in my pits, Two older guys came up and said, No traction on that run ,we were watchin, I was dejected , They laughed and said, How many runs have you made ? I said ,Thats the 3rd run of my life, Jim, Remember this answer the older guys gave me after I said 3rd run of my life , , ,
They looked at each other chuckled and said, "So you thought you would come to a place where racers have been going fast over a hundred years , And run right up there with them after two to three runs" For Me Point taken . . . . .
Go to Bonneville ,Fall in love with it , And enjoy any speed you get ! Because my Friend, Its a Blast and so are all the people you meet there !
DW
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I have been reading the Rules Book and I discovered on page 149, item 7.J.10 states that VF class is limited to engines produced prior to 1956. My engine is a 1956 KHK. Since it is identical to a 1955 KHK engine, I am hoping there is some way to get an exception. I tried to contact a person listed in the Rules Book with no success (probably a defunct email address). Can someone tell me whom I should contact that can give me a definitive answer as to whether I can use my current engine?
The alternative is to purchase a new engine, which I will do in a heartbeat if I can find one.
Jim :dhorse:
My understanding of 7.J.10 is that if the motor is identical to motor produced prior to 1956 it is OK
Also in 7.J.10
Above components made after 1955 and exact reproductions may be considered legal in Vintage classes if they offer no competitive advantage.
G
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I've been building, tuning and writing about flathead H-D engines since 1968, and in my opinion there is nothing significantly different between a legal (pre-1956) and an actual 1956 KHK engine. Some of my work on this and other subjects appears on Wikipedia. I'll be happy to furnish a notarized statement to that effect if it will help.
Some of my published work:
http://www.victorylibrary.com/books1.htm
Some of my public service (a.k.a., free) work:
http://www.victorylibrary.com/tech/tech.htm
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I have most of your books, maybe all of them. You sir, have been my guru for many a year. Your website has entertained me many a dark night. I have followed your advice for many years, and it has served me well. You are quite famous in my corner of the Harley Flathead world.
As it turns out, my belly numbers indicate a manufacturing date in 1955, but your offer is greatly appreciated and may yet be needed.
Thank you, sir.
Jim Tarleton :cheers:
PS
You once had some serious data about blown bikes on your website, but I can no longer find it. Can I buy it?
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I haven't posted in a long time. I will try to catch up. I am actually running three projects, 1) Bought a RV to make the trip and had to do maintenance work on it like replacing the in-tank fuel pump. I am doing 100% of all work by myself, so time becomes a serious issue. 2) Getting my old Jeep CJ7 in shape to be the chase vehicle. Bike will mount on the back of the Jeep for the trip out and back on a custom built bike caddy I modified to fit into the tow receiver hitch. RV will tow Jeep. More work and lost time. 3)Final plan for bike finalized and mock up started. My work plan may be a bit odd to some, but I get it done. The pictures show a rusty frame, etc. All beautification will take place during the painting phase (yep, I will do that also). I have had some wonderful help from Patrick (French Owl) who diverted me from a failed path many times, Don Rothwell, who built a coupe of much needed handmade pieces, modified my S&S fuel carb for methanol (lots of it), and a host of others to which I am indebted. I took a month hiatus from the bike construction to take care of other issues that had to be done (RV and Jeep). I am mocking up the bike as of now, in its final form before blasting and painting.
The blower installation and intake system took many forms before I decided on what you will see. I modified a turbo flutter valve to be a pop-off valve (open x-section area is slightly more than I calculated I would need), and I found a new aluminum tig guy to weld up the whole thing after I did the fitting by hand. It is amazing how 1/4" clearance here and an 1/8" clearance there can complicate an install. I installed a steel Blast Box to protect my nuts in case of a catastrophic blower failure. I spent more time than expected on the blower belt drive setup because I had to do the design and verification myself. My local industrial suppliers had very little knowledge about their products - and I mean very little. That has been a problem from the beginning. I became disgusted with my local Gates rep very quickly. What happened to the old sales guys who knew their products from top to bottom? Asking one of them to calculate anything is like asking them to run with the bulls.
Mine is but a meager effort to run fast and safe. It is way more complex than I initially thought. Of course, I am preaching to the choir. I do admit I have spent a lot of money, but I have enjoyed the process immensely. I have salt fever more than ever.
Jim cheers
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Jim, it looks like you're having lots of fun. I do wanna ask, though, if you've got pictures of the other right side of the bike. Just askin'...
Welcome back to active Forum participation. Keep posting. . . :-D
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"What happened to the old sales guys who knew their products from top to bottom? Asking one of them to calculate anything is like asking them to run with the bulls".
More and more I am finding that the most knowledgeable sales person in most chain auto parts stores is a "Bull" who takes pride in know more than the guys!! I have one at Auto Zone and one at O Riley's that I go to
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I became disgusted with my local Gates rep very quickly. What happened to the old sales guys who knew their products from top to bottom? Asking one of them to calculate anything is like asking them to run with the bulls.
Litigation is what happened. If they do the calculations for you, and something fails, it's their fault. Even if you gave them incorrect or incomplete information about the application, you might come back on them over it. It's not right, but it is the way the world is now. :cry:
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Maybe Shakespeare was right. Henry VI, part 2 Act 4, Scene 2.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Part is fear of litigation, part is shear stupidity and lack of common sense. The only thing they know is computers, if it's not there, your out of luck. I was told at an OReilly that if I didn't have the year and model he couldn't help me. With the old crap I work on that is hilariousy funny.
Ron
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If the engine's angle to the horizontal plane is correct in the photos, your oil drain in the floor of the right crankcase to the return pump will not be the lowest point, and some oil will pool under the #1 and 2 (rear cylinder) camshafts. This may cause them to churn through the liquid, and although not a major parasitic drag will tend to aerate the oil, and reduce the efficiency of the return gears. There may be enough room to raise the floor in the rear of the chest to improve the natural drain.
Are you confident that the float bowl angle as shown will insure the right fuel depth of the main nozzle, etc?
I would not end the air horn pointing rearward, but end in a box with its entry in still air to avoid weird air correction changes with MPH.
Have you decided in breather timing yet?
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The bike is sitting on a trailer that has it tongue sitting on a block. The engine/trans will be dead level with the horizon, as will the carb; and the carb will sport an air filter (K&N) that resides in a Dead Air Box sitting inside the fairing. Ground clearance will be less than 3"by design. That may turn out to be too low, as surface texture at BSF is one of the unknowns to me. The carb will be level if I have to cut and refit/weld the runner.
Picking my oil pump and setting breather timing was the first project phase I did. I am using a particular setup that I decided on after reading everything I could find on oiling and breather timing, including your recommendations for the big flatties, although not directly related to the KHK. From just recall, I have a 72 pump, a couple of racing pumps, and a bag of parts and springs. I have limited experience with changing breather events, so I will rely heavily on outside recommendations. I would greatly value any recommendation from you.
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I've been running a small (350cc) blown pushrod vee-twin since 2013, and the Aisin blower works well if set up properly...
I don't know how much boost pressure you are planing to run, but 5 to 7.5 psi would be a good place to start....
Camshaft selection can be tricky, and wasted spark ignition can play havoc with everything...
If you have questions, I'll be glad advise...
Great project....
Robert "Smitty" Smith
The Baron Race Team
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Jim,
Try this contact , he was very helpful when I was in setup mode.
PHILLIP AITKEN BEng (Mech)
Product Application Engineer
Industrial Replacement
paitken@gates.com
Tiny
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Thank you, Tiny.
Jim
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I am a fresh face and a bit ignorant, awaiting arrival of my 2016 rule book. I am building a blown fuel 56 KHK in an attempt to run in the MPS/VBF class. Can I use a 1972 frame? The only frame modification is altered front downcomer legs to accommodate the blower and a 3"-4" stretch of the rear swingarm. I believe I have the option to lengthen the swingarm by 10% of the stock wheelbase. The 1972 frame is my concern.
Jim Tarleton :cheers:
BMST 2017 Rule Book http://bonnevillespeedtrials.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/2017-AMA-BonnevilleSR-FINAL.pdf
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You are a sweetheart, and if that avatar is your picture, a very attractive sweetheart at that. Thank you. I now have my reading for the night (and a few days hence). What do I owe you?
The ever grateful, Jim.
Jim
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…. you owe me nothing but the promise that you will go fast and stop safe.
See you on the Salt.
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Only if you point me in the right direction!
Jim
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don't forget....you cannot add 10% of the stock wheelbase to the swingarm. You can only add enough that the rearmost wheel position (in the chain adjustment range) is now 10% over the advertised wheelbase (which is usually with the wheel adjusted all the way forward.
It means you only get about 5% or so (depending on the length of the axle slot).
J