Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Mr. Schimstock on February 17, 2016, 08:46:32 PM
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Back in 2013 I made my first visit to the salt. The wife and I packed up the old car, left the kids with Grandma, and headed west on what we considered a second honey moon (and a dream trip for me). My trusty old red Chevy never missed a beat the whole way there and back to Wisconsin.
While we walked the pits and watched the racers speed off to the horizon I felt the call.... an unmistakable draw... I NEED to do this.
That was it I was hooked. For 2 years I've mulled the idea over.... how?... with what?... maybe a bike?... I like bikes but I'm not a "bike guy"... lakester's!... they are what get's my blood pumping, that and inline Buick eights. The plan was set.
I've lurked on this website for a while now. Watching and learning from what others have tried and done. I figured, to be fair, should share as least some of my successes and failures as well.
A couple weeks ago armed with a '53 Roadmaster, an old quickchange, a pile of 1.5 and 1.75 tubing, and countless sketches I started to tack up the chassis. I ran out of tubing to finish the cage but I think I'm off to a good start. I picked up the last bits of tubing I'll need for now and I'll be back at this weekend.
The top and bottom rails and all the driver's cage tubes are 1.75x.125 DOM. The brace tubes in the rear are 1.5x.125 DOM.
The over all dimensions are 24" wide, 43" tall, and about 20' long. I would have like to go lower but the engine choice was not going to allow it so I went as narrow as I thought I could handle.
I'm excited and, believe it or not, have the full support of my wife. She is actually pushing me to do it... I'm a lucky man!
Comment and suggestions are welcome.
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I'm ignorant on lakesters but I don't see anything wrong so far. I do know that the support of a wife is invaluable !!! I've been lucky in that respect too. And I know it makes life and racing a pleasure. Good luck with the build and don't forget to hug your wife every night.
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You've got the fever and there's nothing wrong with a Buick straight 8!!!!
Just ask Buick Guy3. Nice build brother. I wish you all the best and like the advice I got
overkill and patience are your friend. :cheers:
Mike.
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Wasn't there a straight 8 tank with some history up for sale a while back?
Sid.
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You've got the fever and there's nothing wrong with a Buick straight 8!!!!
Just ask Buick Guy3. Nice build brother. I wish you all the best and like the advice I got
overkill and patience are your friend. :cheers:
Mike.
Absolutely get in touch with someone who has built up a Buick straight 8. Their advice will prevent many pitfalls and they will be able to give you an idea of what is available and what will need to be custom. Start looking for a shop willing to flow test and dyno your project now, as there won't be many interested. And you might want to model the potential performance of your build. It will save you some headaches down the road.
Older style engines really respond to applications of "current technology", IF, it is applied correctly.
Good luck on what looks to be a neat project.
Also, don't take your wife for granted, she is in the minority and is definitely a "keeper".
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Mike and Gary did a LOT of development work on the Buford a few years back -
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4974.0.html
It's a good read and a good discussion regarding the attributes and foibles of the Buick, and this thread concentrates on setting up EFI and testing. It's been a long time since anybody went through this thread, and while the end result was less than they had hoped for, there's much to learn here.
SO GLAD to see another Lakester coming out of Wisconsin! I was just in Berlin, WI, two weeks ago.
One quick thought - I see you're running disc brakes. Consider changing out to drums. You can back the shoes off, and they won't hang up or drag like discs are wont to do. Turn the power into speed, not heat.
The chute is going to do most of the stopping, anyway.
TO SUPPORTIVE WISCONSIN RACING WIVES! :cheers:
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Check www.teambuick.com . They have a section on st8 engines.
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Mike and Gary did a LOT of development work on the Buford a few years back -
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4974.0.html
It's a good read and a good discussion regarding the attributes and foibles of the Buick, and this thread concentrates on setting up EFI and testing. It's been a long time since anybody went through this thread, and while the end result was less than they had hoped for, there's much to learn here.
SO GLAD to see another Lakester coming out of Wisconsin! I was just in Berlin, WI, two weeks ago.
One quick thought - I see you're running disc brakes. Consider changing out to drums. You can back the shoes off, and they won't hang up or drag like discs are wont to do. Turn the power into speed, not heat.
The chute is going to do most of the stopping, anyway.
TO SUPPORTIVE WISCONSIN RACING WIVES! :cheers:
I like that idea. The discs came on the axle and I haven't given them much thought yet. Ultimately the drums might package in the wheels better and provide less drag.
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You've got the fever and there's nothing wrong with a Buick straight 8!!!!
Just ask Buick Guy3. Nice build brother. I wish you all the best and like the advice I got
overkill and patience are your friend. :cheers:
Mike.
Absolutely get in touch with someone who has built up a Buick straight 8. Their advice will prevent many pitfalls and they will be able to give you an idea of what is available and what will need to be custom. Start looking for a shop willing to flow test and dyno your project now, as there won't be many interested. And you might want to model the potential performance of your build. It will save you some headaches down the road.
Older style engines really respond to applications of "current technology", IF, it is applied correctly.
Good luck on what looks to be a neat project.
Also, don't take your wife for granted, she is in the minority and is definitely a "keeper".
:cheers:
Fordboy
The work on the engine will come later, quite possibly next winter. I figure I need to get the bulk of the car done before I work on the power plant. I have considered, just for the hell of it, to see what it will do with basically the stock motor. Might be an interesting baseline. Either way, I've got a ways to go before I need to make that decision.
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Looking great!
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It's been suggested that I could maybe lower the overall height a little more. After looking at I think that might be possible and still leave enough room for the intake and have a good enough view.
I've looked through the rule book and it covers the helmet clearance to the side but doesn't address the top. Any suggestions regarding what's worked for you?
2" seams like a reasonable starting point to me. The only issue I see with running it too close is getting in/out of the seat and not having it so close that it contacts the helmet if things go poorly.
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Making more progress. There are still a handful of tubes to fit but it getting really close to being ready for final weld.
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After I get the final tubes tacked in place I'll tackle building and mounting the front axle. Planning on using a similar mounting strategy as the rear axle. 1.75 OD by 0.75 ID should be plenty stout for the axle tube.
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Couple more tubes and the front bulkhead fitted and tacked. The front bulkhead plate is 3/8" thick and will support the peddle assembly.
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Very nice work. When I built my Lakester frame fitting all the needed stuff became an endless challenge. The water tank, fuel tank, fire bottles, battery and so much more needed to be packaged inside what was left after the driver and engine positions were locked in. Packaging will be where you will spend a lot of time. But as you know the final results will be worth the effort. :cheers:
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I like it. One thought though. As you are adding to the chassis, be careful that you don't block yourself from getting in there to do your final welding. It can happen. :roll: Wayno
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I like it. One thought though. As you are adding to the chassis, be careful that you don't block yourself from getting in there to do your final welding. It can happen. :roll: Wayno
LOL! ..... I found the that out already. Had to take the helmet off, stick head through bars, put helmet back on already. Really wasn't expecting that issue. Haven't found anything I absolutely can't reach yet.
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Mike and Gary did a LOT of development work on the Buford a few years back -
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4974.0.html
It's a good read and a good discussion regarding the attributes and foibles of the Buick, and this thread concentrates on setting up EFI and testing. It's been a long time since anybody went through this thread, and while the end result was less than they had hoped for, there's much to learn here.
SO GLAD to see another Lakester coming out of Wisconsin! I was just in Berlin, WI, two weeks ago.
One quick thought - I see you're running disc brakes. Consider changing out to drums. You can back the shoes off, and they won't hang up or drag like discs are wont to do. Turn the power into speed, not heat.
The chute is going to do most of the stopping, anyway.
TO SUPPORTIVE WISCONSIN RACING WIVES! :cheers:
I like that idea. The discs came on the axle and I haven't given them much thought yet. Ultimately the drums might package in the wheels better and provide less drag.
Get the right wheels ( a six inch rim on zero will do it) and you'll be able to tuck the drums inside a flat inner wheel disc.
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z187/fourdoorshitbox/Mobile%20Uploads/utf-8BSU1BRzE1MzMuanBn_zpsa265b1a4.jpg) (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/fourdoorshitbox/media/Mobile%20Uploads/utf-8BSU1BRzE1MzMuanBn_zpsa265b1a4.jpg.html)
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The more I look at SOS, the more I think I should have built one.
I was just about to throw the drum brakes I have away.
I think I'll keep them for a rainy day. :-D
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The more I look at SOS, the more I think I should have built one.
I was just about to throw the drum brakes I have away.
I think I'll keep them for a rainy day. :-D
drums are less drag, drums are faster. lighter too so you have less unsprung weight.
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On a vehicle without suspension or very little wheel movement, unsprung mass really doesn't matter much. With no suspension it could be all considered unsprung.
Disc brakes generally have better power density than a drum arrangement. For an LSR application it depends on what you have room for and what your plan is for how to stop.
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If you need to stop a lakester in a hurry because it's on fire or you just need to clean the $hit out of your fire suit, you're going to need more than a couple of drum brakes on the back that will either be locking up or fading. Run your old drum brake vehicle down the freeway & nail the park brake & see how that works out for ya.
Sid.
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i took the spot brakes off my roadster and replaced them with '56 Olds drums. No drag. It will easily lock the rear wheels on pavement, let alone salt. more brake won't lock them any tighter. front brakes would help a lot.
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From what I've seen/read about, front brakes on the salt need to balanced really well with the back if they are going to be applied at higher speeds.
I don't think it would be good if the front tires to skid or push the center of resistance (center of pressure plus the braking force) too far forward. That would result in a spin out.
This will take some additional pondering.
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If you need to stop a lakester in a hurry because it's on fire or you just need to clean the $hit out of your fire suit, you're going to need more than a couple of drum brakes on the back that will either be locking up or fading. Run your old drum brake vehicle down the freeway & nail the park brake & see how that works out for ya.
Sid.
You make some good points.
The biggest point against discs brakes is the difficulty in getting them to not drag. Streamlining around them can be dealt with.
I wonder if anyone has ever put a set of springs between the pads to push them off the disc. This would be similar to what the springs are doing in a drum brake. Clearance over the disc would be an issue and it would take some fine tuning to get the clearance dialed in and take a little more volume from the master cylinder...... but it would provide the some of the best of both worlds.
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I wonder if anyone has ever put a set of springs between the pads to push them off the disc. This would be similar to what the springs are doing in a drum brake. Clearance over the disc would be an issue and it would take some fine tuning to get the clearance dialed in and take a little more volume from the master cylinder...... but it would provide the some of the best of both worlds.
That's what we do on our bike and it works well.
With new pads we don't have pump up issues.
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A trick some of the bike guys do is just before the take off, they pry open the discs a touch with a pry bar. Gets it done, but if you enclose your brakes inside a disc, another approach might be necessary.
Mark once mentioned machining the disc a few thousandths off center to push the pads out as you roll - a trick some sports racers embrace - but few capable of over 200 mph.
It all depends upon where you run and how fast you go.
I asked Joe Timney last year about running my Midget at Wilmington. I'm only running rear drums, and ran a best of 126 in 3 at Bonneville - it might hit 110 in the mile on pavement - he didn't think it would be a problem.
You'd likely be using much bigger brakes than I do, and they ran drums in NASCAR up until - what - the late 1960s when they were getting close to 190 mph in cars that weighed 3500 lbs.
In the end, you need to feel safe driving it.
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A simple spring mechanism between the pads will retract them from the rotor & the style of that will depend on the style of your caliper.
I've done it on a lot of race cars over the years & learned to left foot & heel n toe. My new 4WD liner has 4 wheel steel brake rotors (built by Podunk) with 3500 Chevy calipers on all 4 corners with horseshoe springs between the pads & they retract for zero touch. I also have spiral gear diff carriers so it can't lock a wheel without breaking something.
The brakes only brake the wheels, the tires brake the vehicle.
Sid.
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Sid,
By "spiral gear diff carriers" are you referring to the Torsion style diff? These are a proportional style diff. I'm not sure what you would break by locking a wheel.
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Geeze Marty, I did not know you were working on this!?
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A word of caution here. This story goes back 40 years to our drag racing days. We had the same idea. Spring loaded brake pads to back them off of the rotors. Worked great, well maybe not great, good. When I got to the top end I applied the brakes and there were'nt any. It seems that two calipers hold more fluid than one master cylinder can supply in one stroke and on the second application, one caliper applys first and the car goes that way. At over 100 mph that is a big surprise. [We only made one pass with them like that].
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Geeze Marty, I did not know you were working on this!?
Been kicking it around for a while. Finally decided to bite the bullet and go for it.
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A word of caution here. This story goes back 40 years to our drag racing days. We had the same idea. Spring loaded brake pads to back them off of the rotors. Worked great, well maybe not great, good. When I got to the top end I applied the brakes and there were'nt any. It seems that two calipers hold more fluid than one master cylinder can supply in one stroke and on the second application, one caliper applys first and the car goes that way. At over 100 mph that is a big surprise. [We only made one pass with them like that].
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
You make some good points there. Sounds like the pads may have been backed off too far. I'll have to keep that in mind when/if I decide to take that path. Thanks for the input.
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Got the front axle mounting figured out and ready for final welding and machining. It's starting to come together the way I expected. That's always a good feeling. Now just need to work through the dampers and get the right toe links.
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Finally released from the build deck and flipped to weld all the underside joints. So far it has stayed nice and straight.
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A word of caution here. This story goes back 40 years to our drag racing days. We had the same idea. Spring loaded brake pads to back them off of the rotors. Worked great, well maybe not great, good. When I got to the top end I applied the brakes and there were'nt any. It seems that two calipers hold more fluid than one master cylinder can supply in one stroke and on the second application, one caliper applys first and the car goes that way. At over 100 mph that is a big surprise. [We only made one pass with them like that].
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Hi Doug,
Been thinking about this some more. If a spool is used instead of a diff it shouldn't matter if one brake comes on before the other. The wheels are forced to run at the same speed. The brake torque would be distributed the same way the input torque would be. Maybe that's the key to making it work. No diff.
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I was looking at your build and noticed the curved bars you used. I did the same on mine... what a pain those were! I also considered a spool for the rear end. I was told by many on this board, as well as most I talked to outside it, and the consensus was to run an open diff. The main reasoning given was that open is far more controllable at high speed with a loss of traction. Personally my logic told me a spool would be more stable but after thinking about it I was sold on an open diff. I have yet to run, so for me the jury is still out, and Im sure there will be may opinions on both sides.
I am also running rear drums only. I am sure they will not stop the car on there own, but thats what the chute is for right, heh.
By the way, I love the build. It looks great, I can wait to see it all come together.
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...and if the chute fails to deploy? :-o
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Our car can stop in time from about 200 with rear drums only -- of course it's a brick. Open keeps you from incessantly measuring tires. What do you do when it sits with one in the sun for hours?
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Making some progress again. The chassis is off the table and the front axle is machined for the king pins. Now I can start working through the damper mounting and getting the track of the QC to match the front. The idea I got from this board of using the cherry picker to pull the tubes from the bells worked very well.
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The idea I got from this board of using the cherry picker to pull the tubes from the bells worked very well.
That's really slick. :cheers:
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Finally got back in the shop for some quality time. Got the front suspension mocked up.
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.... and the rear as well. The spacer tubes are currently too small. These will be replaced by larger diameter aluminum tubes in the future. The steel is just what I had available at the time.
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Started fabricating the chute tubes, fuel tank, and cooling box as well. Can't wait to start working on the body.
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Chute anchors through the tube and is good per the guys at Stroud.
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As per putting springs between the brake pads...the rubber seals in the wheel cylinders relax after pressure is released and they pull the pucks back enough to allow the disk to freely rotate. Any goop or corrosion between the puck and the cylinder wall will cause binding and prevent this. Then the brakes to drag. Sometimes putting in new seals helps. It is important that they face the right direction. A brake cylinder technical salesman can help a lot with caliper selection. Some calipers are better at retracting the pucks than others. It is an annual task to drain the brake fluid on the race bike, and then to take the caliper apart and clean it and lube and adjust everything so there is good retraction and no dragging. A well cared for and adjusted conventional brake system seems to work OK.
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Some really nice fabrication work there Mr. Schimstock. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Where do the rubber donuts you're using in the suspension come from.
Pete
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Some really nice fabrication work there Mr. Schimstock. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Where do the rubber donuts you're using in the suspension come from.
Pete
I got them from McMaster Carr. Not the cheapest but a good section of durometers and sizes. I ordered 3 different rates so I can tweak them to match the axle loads when it's at final weight.
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It looks great. Can't wait to see the finished product. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Fordboy turned me on to McMaster-Carr. Especially for those of us in the Midwest, if it's in the catalog, they almost always have it in stock, and I've ordered items as late as 4:00 in the afternoon and had them delivered the next day to Milwaukee.
The return policy is no BS, and while they're not cheap, the service is second to none.
https://www.mcmaster.com/
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I first encountered McMaster-Carr in 1978. The engineering department said if you need anything get it from the big yellow book! If they don't have it - no one does!
So I said,"Oh yeh! Do they have sling psychrometers?" :x They had three models! :-o :-o :-o [Only two today!]
I got to visit one of the old warehouses in the '80s and the wooden floors had deep grooves worn between the shelves. No automation - everyone knew where stuff was at like the old-time hardware store! :cheers:
I still go there first and if they have it - order it! Like MM says their service is REAL! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Ditto
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Mc Master -Carr may not be the cheapest but they can be one stop shopping.
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I'm back at it after a bit of a break to help Burton with getting his streamliner into the record books. I learned soooooo much in the process of helping him.
With the chassis roughed in the first order of business was to get the canopy figured out. The bubble is from a small jet, Sub Sonex, built in Oshosh Wi. They were kind enough to let me take a lot of dimensions and sell me an un-trimmed bubble I could tweak for my own needs. After a few nerve racking cuts I had a general shape of what I wanted.
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A little more trimming and some CAD (cardboard aided design) and I had a plan for how to make the frame.
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That is a really nice-looking canopy!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Bit of hammering and some welding (the cursing was silent) and I had something I thought would work.
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After adding a second layer to support the bubble and more trimming It had a nice clean look.
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view from the front
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Used a pair of gas springs to aid with opening to get out. The just reach over center when the canopy is down so very little force is needed to hold it shut and it only needs a little bump to get it to open.
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Mr. Shimstock, once trimmed, your canopy looks very similar to mine. Could I trouble you for a few dimensions of the polycarbonate?
John
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Mr. Shimstock, once trimmed, your canopy looks very similar to mine. Could I trouble you for a few dimensions of the polycarbonate?
John
What dimensions would you like? The original bubble was about 4' x 6'. I only used a little over half the length. The widest point on the car is 24".
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Mr. Shimstock, once trimmed, your canopy looks very similar to mine. Could I trouble you for a few dimensions of the polycarbonate?
John
What dimensions would you like? The original bubble was about 4' x 6'. I only used a little over half the length. The widest point on the car is 24".
Let me get some measurements together and see if your canopy can be cut to fit. One measurement I do remember is 20" across the back. That is the widest part of my canopy.
John
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Well... It's been a while since I've updated this... it's been a fairly busy winter and the Lakester is starting to come together. All the little things are getting checked off the list like where to mount the battery. Not where I originally intended but it fits in the body shell.
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Also fit the firewall in place and added the extra tubes to the cage to keep me in should a run go poorly.
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The base layers of the body are done as well. The remainder of the work on this will have to wait until it's warm enough to leave the shop doors open. Way too many fumes otherwise.
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The original plans for the fresh air supply didn't work out. Thinking about running a tube along the inside lower corner of the driver's compartment. There's just enough room to clear my left heel.
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It's been a while since I made and update. I found places for all the "stuff" to fit... but... there is a high likelihood that I missed something. I'll have to deal with that when it comes up. Went through all the welds then it was off to get the chassis powder coated. The chassis is back and looks good. Now it's time to do the final fitting of the body and drilling the holes for the fasteners. The current plan is to make the first pass at the ECTA event in Sept.
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The original idea for the water/ice tanks used large diameter fuel caps. They are big enough and readily available. The more I thought about fuel ending up where water should be the less I liked the idea. While a good crew would likely never make this mistake it had a chance and it wasn't sitting well with me. So, while the chassis was out for paint I took the time make a pattern and cast a set of flapper style doors that are clearly marked for ice water. Just need to finish the machining, add a little blue paint and a thumb screw to keep them closed.
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Looking good there Marty, I like the nose ski.
Sid.
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Thanks Sid. It may cost me a tiny bit in aero but given the track condition lately I'm sure it will be nice feature to have. Rather bounce off than dig in.
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Thanks Sid. It may cost me a tiny bit in aero but given the track condition lately I'm sure it will be nice feature to have. Rather bounce off than dig in.
Tell me about it. I had that very problem at 2017 WoS. It is a 1/4" thick aluminum plate belly pan from now on.
John
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I guess I wasn't the only one... :|
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Gotta Ask... Powder Coating the Frame? My background is formula car and off road racing. Powder coating was always a no,no. Reason being it is great at hiding cracks, and makes for a tough time when comes to repair welding. I realize my comment is to late but I was just wondering what other felt about this.
BTW your Ice Water caps are just flat out bitchen! I'd buy one :-D
Chris
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Just remember that when fitting the driver control systems to have on the full fire suit as they will restrict movements and reaching the safety devices etc. That includes the helmet and neck support as well as seat belt. The bail out at inspections are watched very carefully. I am sure others will make comments on this as well.
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As a fabricator I've never liked powder coat on racecar chassis just for the stated reasons. It's really hard to remove to do an effective repair and when you do have it all removed and start to weld it liquefies and runs toward the weld from a different area. I've always preferred a good coating of rust paint which is easy to remove and offers little interference with welding when things have to happen in a hurry. Then again I've always been known for more go than show and that doesn't always sit well with some owners. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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Looking good Marty.
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Thanks Sid. It may cost me a tiny bit in aero but given the track condition lately I'm sure it will be nice feature to have. Rather bounce off than dig in.
Tell me about it. I had that very problem at 2017 WoS. It is a 1/4" thick aluminum plate belly pan from now on.
John
John,
Wow! That's nasty looking. How much ground clearance and suspension travel were you running?
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I'll have to keep in mind the powder coating issues for the future..... obviously too late now. I went with a light color, silver, to help it show cracks if they should develop. We do that on test stands at work. Lighter colors really make them stand out.
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I really wasn't meaning to slight your efforts. Unfortunately experience is one of the best teachers but she can at times be a little tough on a person. For future reference, if you want a glossy finish a good enamel finish can give you what you're looking for without the annoying side effects and it's relatively easy to hide repairs and changes. I don't like two part paints because they can give off some nasty fumes as well.
Just as an aside, I do use powder on lots of small parts. For those it often works well.
Your progress is looking good and I do wish you well with the project.
Pete
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John,
Wow! That's nasty looking. How much ground clearance and suspension travel were you running?
Beginning ground clearance was too low at 1.5" and became a salt plow on the first run. We raised clearance twice more to eventually achieve a little over 2" but that was still too low. All the pounding and repairs eventually compromised the under tray and it folded up on Lyn's last run (180 mph). Fortunately, it held long enough for her "B" license and qualify for long course next outing. Lyn was one of many to get a Spin Pin that meet.
Another contributing factor was the eight brand new front trailing arm rod ends. There was far too much combined stiction to allow suspension to move freely. Even with fairly stiff springs, the first bump compressed suspension and rod end stiction was at least partially responsible for a slow return, if any. Changes for next meet will be to greatly reduce stiction, raise front ground clearance to around 2.5" and put in a 1/4" thick aluminum belly pan that is bolted in, not Dzus fastened.
Oh yeah, I was planning on .500" of front suspension travel.
John
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John;
One thing that might be contributing to your problem is aerodynamic downforce on your front end. At higher speed the downforce compresses your front springs and the ride height decreases. Try tying a nylon ty-wrap around the rod on your front shocks (as the springs compress the ty-wrap will be pushed further up and it will stay at the maximum travel point). That will indicate how low the nose of your car is being pushed down. You might need a higher spring rate.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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John, Neil probably hit it with his down force thinking. Flat bottom cars can generate sizable amounts of aero down force which could certainly make the car drop during running. Another thought would be to put some stiff shock snubbers and cut their length so that at ride height you have your 1/2 inch compression travel before you hit the snubbers. Keeps the bottom off the ground and also doesn't go to full solid suspension.
Rex
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Neil/Rex:
Thank you both for the suggestions. I am considering a higher front spring rate, maybe even rising rate springs but not too much more than the 350 pounds per corner I have now (front corner weights were in the 275 pound ballpark). I have a front 1:1 motion ratio and may, at some future date, go to a 2:1 rocker ratio. So much salt found its way to my dampers, it was easy to see damper travel of 1" or about twice what I was shooting for.
On the way back home from WoS last year, I stopped by the Darko tunnel. Front downforce is a little over 100 pounds positive at 250 mph so not enough to cause me grief. I am changing a few things around so I may even see a little less positive downforce next time out. But I hate stiction with a passion. It kills almost anything you are asking suspension to do and I knew that going in. I just did not have the time to fix it. I had hoped a few passes down track would loosen them up but it did not.
I will definitely use elastomers on dampers for compression control. Cheap and easy. I will also use rubber snubbers instead of leather belts for droop control. Belts kind of got in the way and stretched some as well.
Anyway, all in the name of vehicle development, right?
John
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I really wasn't meaning to slight your efforts. Unfortunately experience is one of the best teachers but she can at times be a little tough on a person. For future reference, if you want a glossy finish a good enamel finish can give you what you're looking for without the annoying side effects and it's relatively easy to hide repairs and changes. I don't like two part paints because they can give off some nasty fumes as well.
Just as an aside, I do use powder on lots of small parts. For those it often works well.
Your progress is looking good and I do wish you well with the project.
Pete
No problem Pete, I took it as constructive criticism. The company that did the coating also provided a rattle can of paint that is a perfect match to deal with the inevitable and already occurring nicks and dings. If (and likely when) I need to do any welding I'll just need to pay attention and get it all off and far enough away.
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Finally moved forward after some noodling on how to get the holes through the body lined up with the tabs on the chassis. Some are pretty straight forward, drill from the inside out. Others required putting a flashlight on the inside and drilling through the center of the shadow. Couple more to go on the nose but it's off to a good start.
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It's been a long time since I last posted. A lot of work has been done. Essentially the chassis is almost complete. Still need a drive shaft, all 4-1/2" of it and start the final fitting of the body.
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I just love the looks of this lakester! What class will it run?
John
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I just love the looks of this lakester! What class will it run?
John
XO/GL and XO/FL is what it is set up for now.
Marty
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John,
Wow! That's nasty looking. How much ground clearance and suspension travel were you running?
Well, I recalculated spring rates and was I way off. Looks more like 900 front and 1400 rear.
John
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Few pictures of the test fit with the suit and helmet. It's snug but I can get in and out without issue. If I can keep on it I just might be able to make a run with it this year.
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Gratuitous header photo and one more of the cage.... just because. :-D
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Looking good Marty, love the look of that long 8.
Sid.
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It's been a long road filled with ups and downs and periods of being just burned out..... Recently I regained my motivation and resumed work on the body. It won't be mirror flat but should get the job done.
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Well done! It's hard to keep enthusiasm up on a project that takes a long time. Only a small percentage ever get finished. You're almost there. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Thanks Pete. The hurdles seem to be getting smaller and easier to get past. I'm thinking this is a good sign.
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How did you bend the roll bar padding?
Thanks
John
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It'll bend a lot tighter than that if it's fresh but will snap when it's old.
Sid.
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That describes me too - I bent a lot easier when I was fresh. :cheers:
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John. LOL. Yeah, I can just barely remember fresh but that was another country & a different dream. cromag
Marty. The body's looking good Mate!
Sid.
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How did you bend the roll bar padding?
Thanks
John
I broke a few in the process. But found gentle even pressure got it in there. I did this by using the zip ties incrementally. Don't try to tighten the ties all at once all the way.
Marty
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First layers of shiny stuff have been applied! Not perfect but I'm happy with it. Needs to cure for a few days then I can start applying the some color.
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one more pic
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...... and a view from the front.
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Added the color and finally got to pull the plastic off the canopy. Really happy with how it turned out.
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Detail on the side
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Last one...
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Amazing what some color does, that looks great Marty!
Sid.
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:cheers: :cheers:
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. . . and you're gonna put that to suffer on the salt?
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. . . and you're gonna put that to suffer on the salt?
That's that plan!
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Nice man, proud of a fellow Vagabond. I am staying home for carpentry and our wedding planning
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Gave myself a little motivation by putting the car together and getting it on the ground. Just sitting on the sacrificial "transport" tires but they are pretty close to the size of the race tires. Car always seemed big sitting up on the stands. Feels a lot smaller now. I think it's time to make the final push to get it to an event this year.
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One more picture from the back... then I should go pull the harness and bottles... they need to be re-certified.
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Nice looking car. Keep up the good work, and best of luck with it.
Tom G.
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Way cool😀
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Yes! What Jerry said! :clap
Mike
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Very nice... can't wait to see it on the salt. :friday
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I am with Stainless, can't wait to see it at the salt!!! Really nice looking car,
Rex
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Nice work! I love to straight Buick too.
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Finally moved forward after some noodling on how to get the holes through the body lined up with the tabs on the chassis. Some are pretty straight forward, drill from the inside out. Others required putting a flashlight on the inside and drilling through the center of the shadow. Couple more to go on the nose but it's off to a good start.
Thankyou - I know this is an old post but the recent pics meant I was working backwards through the build- I was wondering about body attachment aligning tags and fibreglass panels and et voila. Loving the look of the finished beasty too but this post made my day. :cheers:
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Have a tripod for your camera?? Mount a laser pointer on it .Piece of tape on the tab...make a cross with a pen and line the laser up on center. Place the body panel on and Voila'...Laser is pointing at the hole's centerline. :cheers:
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Thanks for all the kind words. Started working on motor #2 today. It's dirty inside but so far it looks like a solid foundation. The motor in the car currently is stock with the exception of the intake and header. Motor #2 will be upgraded.
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Welp... the engine didn't get built. Lots of issues with getting parts. Regardless, the stock motor is still capable and it's time to see how the car handles. I booked some hotel rooms for 2021 World of Speed. Now I just need to get an entry and get the car there.
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Making some good progress. The list is getting very small. Got one of the tougher items off the list today. Repurposed a Durmax EGR cooler to cool the air blowing into my helmet. It was a tight fit but I got it in there.
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Not much room left behind the seat
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Starting to come together.
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Huge milestone for me yesterday. Started at 6 am with a bit to do on the car yet. Fast forward to 5:30 PM am a little late for an appointment with a local small airport who kindly agreed to let me make a couple of shake down passes. I still can't believe they let me run down their runway. They only had 2 requests:1 no burnouts, 2 don't damage the runway.
For the most part it went well. I need to adjust the timing, add more heat shielding, swap out the fuel pressure regulator, shave the rear tires, and work on the bail out.
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another pic
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one more
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Nice!
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Looking forward to seeing your beauty at WoS... :cheers:
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Looking great! Have fun, go fast and STAY SAFE!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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DAYMMM! :cheers:
Mike
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That is a fine looking piece!!
Looking forward to seeing how it runs.
Rex
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That's a nice looking car. I expect you'll get it running as good as it looks. :-D
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Thanks for all the kind words and encouragement.
Main goal this year is to get there and make some clean passes. I'll keep tuning the engine to get it to run as best I can. It's stock assembly with a new intake, header, and ignition system. Not sure what to really expect for power.
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It'll be enough for now Mate! :-D
Sid.
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Looking for recommendations on how much to shave off the rear tires?
I'm running Dunlop 700-19 R1's on the drive axle. Current record for XO Lakester, unless it was bummed at speed week, is 201 for gas and 212 for fuel. I'd rather not shave off more than needed to get more life out of the tires. I'm expecting it will take a few runs before I'm getting close to those records.
I did a search and found anywhere between "just enough to make them round and knock off the corners" to "down to the wear bars".
My initial thought are halfway to the wear bars or whatever makes them round, whichever comes first.
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Here's what I would do/have done:
Call Nate Jones at Cowboy Tire Signal Hill, CA 562 597 3369 Many racers have got tires from him for years. Tell him the particulars (where you're going to race, class record speeds, etc) and he'll give you details for your tires. I bought my tires from him, he shaved them and delivered them to me on the salt.
He was at SpeedWeek this year and stopped by the radio trailer for a visit (so I know he hasn't retired).
PS Ask him how he happens to have the keys for a battleship.
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I can attest to the quality of the work that Cowboy Tire does, but I will say that turn-around was an issue. It's not going to be as cheap as it used to be, but very VERY few people do this anymore due to the litigious nature that the very idea of removing tire tread would bring to a courtroom.
You and I get it - 12 honest jurors would be, at best, deadlocked.
Also, there seems to be "Nate" and "Nate Junior", and it seems that they sometimes aren't sure who said what.
I'm not complaining - it's a small family business, and I got my tires back in time and the look great.
It's the USS Iowa that Sr. has the keys to.
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Talked to Nate Sr. a few days ago. He was very helpful, especially given I could not send him the work. Just not enough time. I know were I will be going when I need replacement tires. They answer the phone "Nate's Tires" now.
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My first event is in the books. Made it through tech after one of my crew purchased some tri-bar buckles for my wrist restraints from fellow racer. Saved the day!
I could not have asked for a better crew to get me there, helping pit the car, and getting me back to Wisconsin.
For a wheezy old motor running on 7 cylinders I think it did well. Best pass on the short course was 143.699 mph. The GPS on my phone speedometer registered 146 mph at the exit. Car drove straight and handled well. I got what I wanted out of this event.
Now it's time to clean it up and start working on a good engine for next year.
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Picture at the end of the run... could hardly believe I finally made a pass.
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So good finally meeting you, Marty.
Sorry I missed the runs - you probably heard we were a bit busy in the Midget pit. :roll:
Keep us posted on rhe straight 8 development - I love the oddball stuff!
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My first event is in the books. Made it through tech after one of my crew purchased some tri-bar buckles for my wrist restraints from fellow racer. Saved the day!
I could not have asked for a better crew to get me there, helping pit the car, and getting me back to Wisconsin.
For a wheezy old motor running on 7 cylinders I think it did well. Best pass on the short course was 143.699 mph. The GPS on my phone speedometer registered 146 mph at the exit. Car drove straight and handled well. I got what I wanted out of this event.
Now it's time to clean it up and start working on a good engine for next year.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Picture at the end of the run... could hardly believe I finally made a pass.
That was definitely the fastest straight-7 I've ever worked on Mate! 8-)
Marty put together a really nice piece here & considering #6 in the junkyard engine was a passenger it did good. The serious engine will get it moving.
Sid.
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Definitely only getting power from 7 of the 8 holes. Here's the results of the compression test:
Cylinder Pressure
1 135
2 120
3 140
4 125
5 125
6 20
7 125
8 135
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Uploaded an edited video to YouTube of my second run from WOS 2021.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnJf87Y4t8Y
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Picture at the end of the run... could hardly believe I finally made a pass.
Yep, you did it! Made it to Bonneville and made a pass! Thanks for sharing the video.
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In an effort to remove some losses I decided to replace the quick change with a single reduction GM axle. I was able to find the 2.14, 2.28, and 2.41 ratios along with a posi carrier. This will allow me to go with 28" tires rather than the big shaved down Dunlops I ran originally. To get around the axle C-clip issue it machined a set of Grand National style spindles to fit the GM axle tubes from from cold rolled 8620. This allows me to use the brakes and hubs from the quick change. I also like the full floater style axles.
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Pic of the spindle in the tubes ready to be welded.
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Just read through your whole build. Thank you for sharing. I am still working on my car for CGALT. Where in WI are you? I am outside of Fond du Lac. It would be great to meet some of you in WI and BS, bench race, ask questions, etc.
Eric
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Nice job on the spindles!!! What type of bearing are you planning to use? I did full floating hubs on a early Ford rear end with a Hildebrand quicky for my little track roadster a few years ago and bought the complete set up from Cole3man Bros Racing. You obviously had some 8620 laying around and some time. Again, nice job!
Rex
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Nice job on the spindles!!! What type of bearing are you planning to use? I did full floating hubs on a early Ford rear end with a Hildebrand quicky for my little track roadster a few years ago and bought the complete set up from Cole3man Bros Racing. You obviously had some 8620 laying around and some time. Again, nice job!
Rex
Using Timken tapered roller bearings. Same ones the circle track guys run.
I tried to just buy as set but could not find anyone making them for the 2-5/8" axle tubes. Best option I could come up with was making my own. Wasn't too bad machining them. Scary part was the threading. I'm not great at it but got the job done.
I picked 8620 to get some strength and still be easily welded. 4140 and 4340 really needs some pre and post heat to be welded correctly.
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Just read through your whole build. Thank you for sharing. I am still working on my car for CGALT. Where in WI are you? I am outside of Fond du Lac. It would be great to meet some of you in WI and BS, bench race, ask questions, etc.
Eric
North of you by about an hour. Little town called Redgranite.
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My opinion only... If you are looking to eliminate rolling resistance....ALL Timken style bearings should be removed.
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My opinion only... If you are looking to eliminate rolling resistance....ALL Timken style bearings should be removed.
Generic name= "tapered roller bearings"
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My opinion only... If you are looking to eliminate rolling resistance....ALL Timken style bearings should be removed.
I agree. That's on a list for future upgrades/changes but more than I wanted to take on right now.
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Jimmy is right!! Tapered roller bearings have a lot of drag compared to a good ball bearing. If you really want to go high buck then ceramic ball bearings are the trick. $$$$! but very low drag. Free(?) horsepower.
On the tapered roller bearings be sure to use very low, if any, pre-load as they will get hot, expand and weld themselves together, voice of experience.
Rex
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Just read through your whole build. Thank you for sharing. I am still working on my car for CGALT. Where in WI are you? I am outside of Fond du Lac. It would be great to meet some of you in WI and BS, bench race, ask questions, etc.
Eric
North of you by about an hour. Little town called Redgranite.
That's not far at all. Been thru there many times. It would be very cool to meet you and see the car sometime.
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Jimmy is right!! Tapered roller bearings have a lot of drag compared to a good ball bearing. If you really want to go high buck then ceramic ball bearings are the trick. $$$$! but very low drag. Free(?) horsepower.
On the tapered roller bearings be sure to use very low, if any, pre-load as they will get hot, expand and weld themselves together, voice of experience.
Rex
Thanks for the input. Much appreciated. I usually run them just out of preload but not enough endplay to show up as wheel wobble.
What are you guys running for grease?
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Diff oil level is your lubricant M8.
Sid.
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Wasn't thinking like that Sid. The Quickchange didn't pump any oil into the wheel end area. The GM 7.5 will likely though given the way it is designed. I'll have to keep an eye on it and see how much oil gets pushed out there.
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5-20 syth. motor oil is what i run in my 7.5 900+ hp
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I use Kluber ISO Flex NBU15 high speed spindle bearing grease. Pretty expensive and you don't get much of it but they do include a nice syringe and assorted needles so that you can inject a small amount of grease between every roller (or ball). I then use a small dab on a clean cloth to wipe over the outer race on a roller bearing. Back when I was doing machine tools this is what we used on our high dollar spindle bearings, good for over 10,000 rpm.
I have seen guys that run the ceramic ball bearings run ATF and have gone over 200.
It all depends on what the bearing load is and the RPM.
Rex
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Just read Sparkey's post and not wanting to change the subject but I don't think a lot of people think about the power it takes to turn a differential that is filled with cold 90 weight oil. Also over filling either or both the tranny and diff with to much oil.
Rex
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Made some good progress on the strengthening the rear axle. Added a 1/2" thick girdle plate with bearing cap support screws. Also up-sized the cover bolts from 5/16 to 3/8" studs. The upper part of the oversized plate will be for the upper suspension links. I'm planning to rung some triangulated plates to the input yoke area to relieve some of the loads in the plate.
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With the plate made it was time for a beefier cover. Melted down a bent Audi wheel and came up with this. There's a provision for additional stiffening rods that go from the cover to out by the axle. Totally stealing that idea from "Perfect Launch" and a few other companies.
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Made a spare just in case.
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The almost finished product.
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Nice job on the casting...One of your many talents?
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Nice job on the casting...One of your many talents?
Indeed. Usually pour "found-alloy": random aluminum I found under my bench. For this one I wanted some reasonable properties. Found Audi marks their rims with the alloy. This should be approximately Al Si7 or A356 here in the US.
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That is damned impressive! You are a man with many surprising talents. That is a nice part. Looking forward to seeing your car (truck) at the at the salt.
Rex