Landracing Forum
Thrust-powered Land Speed information => Discussions on absolute land speed records => Topic started by: Malcolm UK on February 01, 2016, 05:35:12 AM
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I was directed to www.wlsra.com by Rosco McGlashan, whose rocket car may have some problems in meeting the one hour FIA turnaround time requirement.
The self styled "World Land Speed Record Association" is offering a series of new classes; a new running procedure for unlimited records;new timing possibilities; on a website which does not indicate how independent of contenders this body might be.
Rosco has indicated that this association is the work of one current team - North American Eagle, led by Ed Shadle.
Nothing on the website indicates that, since Thrust SSC broke the sound barrier during its record bid, any of the 'Unlimited' teams have been working with the FIA on discussions which could have resulted in changes to their regulations for the 'unlimited class'.
Apart from adding the word 'speed', this new governing body seems to be the rebirth of the 1984 World Speed Record Association (headed then by Gary Baim), although all those years ago the WSRA were working with many teams, but they were challenging FIA or FIM regulated records.
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I somebody builds a vehicle that is unable to work within the rules that everybody else has & is running by, then they screwed up!
Creating a new association with different rules to be able to claim a record is just Horse $hit & is an insult to the LSR community.
We've already seen the non existing "Women's Land Speed Record" claimed from the American Eagle team.
Sid.
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My earlier post should have read "The WLSRA added the word 'land' ....." Then they state they have classes for for water speed records as well as acknowledging running on ice.
The WLSRA have listed four classes for wheeldriven speed contenders (in some 'unlimited' form) so they will be taking record recognition away from the SCTA/BNI, as well as the FIA.
They do not put gender in their rules (although I believe these are not yet complete) but they have already listed two female contenders in their records list - Jessi and Kitty.
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Also under "their" rules, Invader & Eagle would not be competing against the existing Thrust SST record or the new Bloodhound due to their choice of engines. Now these guys want to start a new game on a different size field so they can claim "World Record"! WTF!
Kitty O'neil wanted to claim a 1/4 mile record under NHRA but couldn't back it up to meet the rules that everybody else was running on.
How is it any more dangerous with all the technology now than it was back in the 60's for Breedlove & Arfons?
Sid.
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WLSRA - as somebody once said: "you cannot be serious".
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WHO ARE THEY WHERE ARE THEY LOCATED. Who is the board and where do they plan to run.
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WHO ARE THEY WHERE ARE THEY LOCATED. Who is the board and where do they plan to run.
Who are they - certainly Ed Shadle, supported by others.
Where are they located - do not know where in the USA because e mails do not get through to them
Who is the board - not declared by the WLSRA website
Where do they plan to run - anywhere that a contender for their 'records' sees fit.
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I hear a lot of venom in the critics writings. If you think the WLSRA is a joke then don't acknowledge them. WLSRA acknowledges the other organizations records. It not like they are claiming to be the only authority or the best authority, just another that is different set of rules that opens up new venues (which we are in desperate need of) but does not offer any real performance advantages. Also, the FIA has had a monopoly on this and they have treated us as such. The pricing to run at a FIA event is really high. The WLSRA may make LSR a little more affordable to smaller less funded teams.
I believe the WLSRA will eventually force the FIA hand in accepting GPS speeds which will be safer and much less expensive as we will only need one FIA representative on the salt to witness everything, download and verify record GPS data logs. I would think this would help tremendously to keep cost more affordable. I am still very new to this but am I missing anything else here?
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If the contact web address allowed for direct communication it would not be necessary to use other forums and social media.
Robert, you may be missing the historical aspect of World governance when you just focus on cost control and affordability (the WLSRA body has concentrated on a 'safety' angle too). If GPS recorded velocity is as accurate as the timing through the measured mile (or kilometre for those in Europe) using the passage of the car to initiate recording of the elapsed time then governing bodies would be looking at such methods. The bikers have two hours to compleyte an attempt, car drivers only one. Do record breakers want to see the 2 hours or does the community want 24 hour?
I feel sure that to give World coverage, the costs of organising a WLSRA recognised record will not save the contenders so much money. As contributors to landracing.com will know there are only two International (FIA and FIM) events at the moment and both are held in the USA, one for bikes only and one for bikes and cars. Outright thrust powered racers on four or more wheels do not want to run on the surface offered so they have to organise their own locations and attempts.
Not sure you can 'hear .. venom', but the creation of a new body which is 'introduced' to many by an Australian team newsletter could not expect to avoid written criticism or arrive without questions being asked on a public forum.
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... different set of rules that opens up new venues .... Also, the FIA has had a monopoly on this and they have treated us as such. The pricing to run at a FIA event is really high. The WLSRA may make LSR a little more affordable to smaller less funded teams.
... accepting GPS speeds which will be safer and much less expensive ....
Rob, I don't know you but I am willing you to set records with the Carbiliner (which I have been following since it was known as the NACA 66 Streamliner).
You make several very good points, particularly the cost issue and the poor treatment US racers have had from the FIA in the past, but I don't understand:
New venues. How do the new rules open up new venues? You still need a lot of real estate to accelerate and slow down, even if you don't insist on a fixed measured mile in the centre. Which venues become viable only under WLSRA rules?
Safety. How does using GPS for time and distance measurement make LSR significantly safer? Maybe there is a marginal improvement if there are no timing lights to hit, or is there something else I am missing?
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No timing light to hit is pretty significant.
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Pm sent
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When an FIA event is conducted, there is a significant fee for the FIA, about 12 to 15 thousand for starters. You also have to be allowed into the USAC or other sanctioning body to be allowed to run (kind like getting voted into the Elks Club). You also have a venue set up for multiple racers so there are usually timing systems set up, course survey and marked, food court, officials, safety equipment and all the other things. Even when it is distributed amoungst several race teams it will cost you quite a bit. Now imagine if there is NO FIA event available in this year because of any number of reasons, ie: bad salt or rain out. For ONE guy to change his venue to some lakebed in the middle of nowhere, can he afford to mark out a course and get it surveyed? Can he afford the cost of the FIA, USAC, USAFRA or SCTA clocks plus all the other costs. Probably not. Just because he has no event to go to what is wrong with making a single car event affordable? When we went out last year, the Rice Brothers clocks were not available because Cook had them committed already. We had our time already set by the BLM and our own team availability so we were locked in too. We did get the USAFRA clocks for about $5000 just to make sure there was no complaint launched that would make our speeds invalid. If GNSS is utilized with the accuracy being greater than the clocks, we would save the $5000 plus the $12,000 FIA fee. For a regular Joe, that is important. For the deep pockets guys I guess it doesn't matter.
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Back in 1997, Andy made a two way pass that would break the record but missed the turnaround by a very small margin of time, I think it was about 1 minute or so. That required him to and the team to go back the next day and do it all over again. IF, on the next day, Andy had an accident and was hurt or even killed, how would the racing community and especially the FIA folks feel about that, just because of a one minute miss in the turnaround. I vote for the turnaround time to be offical sunup to official sundown. So what is the purpose of imposing a one hour turnaround anyway? Is someone afraid we might swap out our engine for a BIGGER one?
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Back in 1997, Andy made a two way pass that would break the record but missed the turnaround by a very small margin of time, I think it was about 1 minute or so. That required him to and the team to go back the next day and do it all over again.
After concluding runs on the last day, film does show Andy saying something like 'we had to make two runs too many'. As the driver penalised by the over run of time you would think Andy would lead the demands for a change by the FIA. However, the Bloodhound SSC team are working towards a 1 hour time period and Andy has agreed to drive that car.
Yes the FIA and FIM are two separate bodies, so only they know why the time period for consecutive runs differs. As both organisations dictate the amount of allowed maintanance of vehicles - for bikes it is very limited - the time periods were chosen for other reasons.
Most recent British speed contenders have had to foot the full bill with a solo vehicle attempt on ground thousands of miles from home - and since 1960 they have been ordinary Joe's too. No deep pockets.
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*****Why do we have two threads going on this??****I
Sid.
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*****Why do we have two threads going on this??****I
Sid.
When I first posted the information a few days ago, the WLSRA stated that they were dealing with the "Ultimate" land speed record hence Rosco and his Aussie Invader project embraced the news. In other words supersonic cars.
Then the new 'organisation' WLSRA decided that they would not only have four thrust powered classes but they would include wheeldriven cars, wheeldriven three wheelers and wheeldriven bikes (hovercraft and unlimited watercraft).
'Discussions on absolute land speed records' does not attract the usual Bonneville racer to look in here, so I wrote the second thread to alert SCTA/BNI & USFRA racers to the WLSRA.
If Slim decides it should be one thread, then please alter it to leave the thread running in the Bonneville section.
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Copy that Mate!
Sid.
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Dang it, Malcolm, but you Brits come up with the goofiest ways to justify your actions. I'll go with it -- sounds like a reasonable way to get more folks to see the information.
Long Live the Queen, all others eat Vegemite! :-D
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On 13 October ThrustSSC set a two way km speed of 760.474 mph and mile 762.146 mph. Unfortunately the second run was 49.6 seconds outside the turnaround time, so no record. Two days later the team set the current record that has stood for over 18 years - the longest for any outright record.
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Summers Bros. record was good for 45 years. That record was good enough to be called the 'ouright' wheel driven record.
DW
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Al Teague's 425.050 record in 1991 was faster than Summers Bros., so nearly 26 years. But I was meaning 'Outright' in the modern-day FIA sense, i.e. "irrespective of category, of class or of group".
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Check Charles Nearburg record over the Summers Bros. FIA class and rules, 45 years.
DW
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Check Charles Nearburg record over the Summers Bros. FIA class and rules, 45 years.
DW
............... and then DW someone family got a turbine car to run very fast and piston engines are now having to play catch up in the bragging rights. This new organisation may finally consign pistons to the bin of history. Should we allow that to happen?
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On 13 October ThrustSSC set a two way km speed of 760.474 mph and mile 762.146 mph. Unfortunately the second run was 49.6 seconds outside the turnaround time, so no record. Two days later the team set the current record that has stood for over 18 years - the longest for any outright record.
Sorry, but a small correction....the longest outright standing record was Gary Gabelich and the Blue Flame....from November 1970 to September 1997....630+ mph over the kilo....
Richard broke only the mile record at Black Rock October 1983.....
but one Man had the record much longer....John Cobb set the record in 1939....and pushed them higher in 1947....
to the big rule change and the split in different categories for wheel driven and thrust powered car....his record was not broken before 1991....Big Al Teague and Betsy....
Cobb's engine was supercharged.....Campbell had a turbine.....Summers N/A.....three different classes after the change in 1964/65......so Cobb had the record for 52 years, Summers incredible record from 1965 stood for 45 years.....both are legends in our sport....
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In the late 80's when we were knocking on the door of 400 with Betsy, there were a few times down at the other end I found myself referencing the history that Jon Cobb had been doing the same thing in the same place 50 years earlier & how lucky was I to actually be here.
Sid.
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In the late 80's when we were knocking on the door of 400 with Betsy, there were a few times down at the other end I found myself referencing the history that Jon Cobb had been doing the same thing in the same place 50 years earlier & how lucky was I to actually be here.
Sid.
following Al, setting all his records over the years with Betsy....something you will never forget.....
just Al's first run for his final record (2002)....432 mph with the little engine out of the door...the sound took care that the hair in your neck stand upright....so awesome.....and he run after Nolan's fatal run...
the picture of him with the celebration beer in his hand and a smile.....so wide.....
Al still own the kilo record from the 1991 run....425 mph.....as he told me....he got no idea where this speed is coming from....he knows only that he run a so speed in one direction...
...it's so in the FIA books....
Hope, that is for you folks not too boring when I correct from time to time the real facts...... :roll:
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Check Charles Nearburg record over the Summers Bros. FIA class and rules, 45 years.
DW
Sorry Dan, I thought you were talking about the time the Summers Bros. record was called the outright wheel driven record.
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On 13 October ThrustSSC set a two way km speed of 760.474 mph and mile 762.146 mph. Unfortunately the second run was 49.6 seconds outside the turnaround time, so no record. Two days later the team set the current record that has stood for over 18 years - the longest for any outright record.
Sorry, but a small correction....the longest outright standing record was Gary Gabelich and the Blue Flame....from November 1970 to September 1997....630+ mph over the kilo....
Richard broke only the mile record at Black Rock October 1983.....
Thomas, can I attempt a small correction of my own? When Richard Noble beat Gary Gabelich's mile speed it became the outright record because it was also faster than the kilometre speed. Gary retained the kilo class record but it was no longer the outright record.
There can only be one outright record at any given point in time.
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On 13 October ThrustSSC set a two way km speed of 760.474 mph and mile 762.146 mph. Unfortunately the second run was 49.6 seconds outside the turnaround time, so no record. Two days later the team set the current record that has stood for over 18 years - the longest for any outright record.
Sorry, but a small correction....the longest outright standing record was Gary Gabelich and the Blue Flame....from November 1970 to September 1997....630+ mph over the kilo....
Richard broke only the mile record at Black Rock October 1983.....
Thomas, can I attempt a small correction of my own? When Richard Noble beat Gary Gabelich's mile speed it became the outright record because it was also faster than the kilometre speed. Gary retained the kilo class record but it was no longer the outright record.
There can only be one outright record at any given point in time.
good point.....Richard run 633 mph (622 mph Gary) over the mile....and 634 mph (630 mph Gary) over the kilo which was not enough for the 1 percent rule......
interesting here - from a "talk" with the FIA I had a couple years ago - for the FIA mile and kilo are both outright records.....don't ask me why and when I tried to get the reason for the answer was...."it is so"....... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
the same strange answer with Al Teague's kilo record from 1991....the 425 mph....albeit it looks that this speed is wrong...and maybe they can correct the list.....the answer was....
"it is so in record list and we let them so in the record list".....great for all the racers who like to break the record in this category....
Hope you can now understand why I wrote this earlier note....
we not have to understand the FIA :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
about "outright wheel driven record"....it was great to see, that the FIA after all this years, gave the wheel driven speed community(or the Purist as we call them) the World Land Speed Record back....instead of international records :? :? :?.....like the end of the 1 percent rule....it was only one fellow in the FIA who blocked this change for years....therefore he got the nickname Mr. One Percent......
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the same strange answer with Al Teague's kilo record from 1991....the 425 mph....albeit it looks that this speed is wrong...and maybe they can correct the list.....the answer was....
"it is so in record list and we let them so in the record list".....great for all the racers who like to break the record in this category....
Hope you can now understand why I wrote this earlier note....
we not have to understand the FIA :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
In my imaginary world there is a filing cabinet (or a room full of filing cabinets) containing all the paperwork relating to all records recognised by the FIA.
It should therefore be possible to revisit the calculations that resulted in the 425 mph speed, identify the error(s), recalculate and publish the revised record with apologies to all involved.
Tom Burkland took Al's mile class record in 2008 and probably should also have been credited with the kilo record from the same runs. Is he bothered?
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Al wasn't even aware of the kilo record until FIA posted it & we both went "What!!" How the hell did they come up with that!
Speedo's still read in MPH in the U.S. & most people here don't even know how long a kilometer is, it's just not a measuring stick we use.
How much is a litre of gas right now? I dunno! It's a buck-89 a gallon.
Sid.
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How much is a litre of gas right now?
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About £1 at the moment. :lol:
But it's still much more expensive in the UK compared to USA. And we don't agree on the size of a gallon ...
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Another question: who held the FIA class record before Al?
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Kiwi,
I'm not sure if Al was really aware of the kilo speed....it was 1997 or 98 when Al gave me a picture of the FIA certification...I saw the kilo speed ..... in km/h...and said to him, if his aware that he run 425 mph.....his answer was "No and by the way I never run this as an average...I run this only one direction...."....
He told me that he still got the paperwork for that record....if necessary I could get them from Dave Petrali....
I contact the FIA about...I told them that this listed speed isn't right....as I wrote before....they was not interest to correct it....and yes, especially for Tom Burkland this decision from the FIA is tough....if the kilo speed from Al had to be close to his mile speed Tom had the chance to get both records.....
The FIA simple says....we are not making mistakes.....and the victims are the record breaker....
Louise Noeth worked a couple of years ago with the FIA to get the mess in this record lists a little bit cleaned up....and it needs her a long time....this lists are still not all right to the facts....but improved....
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Another question: who held the FIA class record before Al?
After all the changes in the 60's with the classes and categories it was (as I wrote before) John Cobb and his Railton Special from 1947 (he had the record since 1939 and pushed them higher after WW II, setting the 47 record he was the first to break the 400 mph (one way)
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In my imaginary world there is a filing cabinet (or a room full of filing cabinets) containing all the paperwork relating to all records recognised by the FIA.
It should therefore be possible to revisit the calculations that resulted in the 425 mph speed, identify the error(s), recalculate and publish the revised record with apologies to all involved.
I know I often sound like a stuck record (for those of a young age we call such items as 'vinyl') .......... the paperwork should be in the offices of ACCUS in the USA, as they acted for the FIA for all records set on the lands of the USA. Someone should also know where the kilometre was located in relationship to the mile timed distance to see if such a difference in speed was credible.
The "supercharged above 8 litre record" might not have existed in the pre-war years - the use of supercharging did not change the class. (It still does not in UK National record breaking). There was controversy over whether Al had gone fast enough to 'beat' the Summers Bros Goldenrod record until it was determined that there were by then two classes (non supercharged and supercharged). It would have been the Cobb Railton record of 394.20 mph to be beaten.
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Now then everyone - whose FIA record did the Summers Bros (Bob driving) beat ???
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Putting aside as I suggested the use of supercharging (which the German car had) the cubic capacity is recorded as being 5.6 litres, therefore it was in a 'lower' class (B) than the Goldenrod (A).
The fastest speeds on any public highway though remain to this day.
So who was the quickest in Class A unsupercharged over 8000cc prior to Goldenrod ??
Do you have any records for this period Pork Pie??
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Putting aside as I suggested the use of supercharging (which the German car had) the cubic capacity is recorded as being 5.6 litres, therefore it was in a 'lower' class than the Goldenrod.
The fastest speeds on any public highway though remain to this day.
Do you have any records for this period Pork Pie??
II 10 1 M FS 208.792 336.018 Ford Thunderbird Coupé Ford Lyn Saint James 10.10.1988 Talladega USA 7
II 10 1 M FS 221.511 356.487 SONOCO Pontiac Firebird John Baechtel 01.10.1990 Bonneville USA 8
II 10 1 M FS 320.114 515.174 Vesco / Nish Streamliner Vesco / Nish Streamliner Terry Nish 14.10.1995 Bonneville USA 9
II 10 1 M FS 340.364 547.763 Danny Boy Streamliner Thomason & Tradup Racing Richard Thomason 20.10.1999 Bonneville USA 10
II 11 1 M FS 409.277 658.667 Goldenrod Summers Bros. Bob Summers 12.11.1965 Bonneville
here the FIA record list from 2005....means before Charles Nearburg broke the Summers record.....
engine size 10 ....the record wasn't that fast and the first record at Bonneville was 1990....I'm not sure if there was a FIA record in this class before set at Bonneville....we talking here about FIA records....not SCTA.....this record, maybe was faster in 1990....
for engine size 11....means unlimited...maybe FIA forgot himself....the last N/A record in unlimited engine size (to the size classes FIA rule from 1965) was an outright record....
set in 1929 by Segrave in the Golden Arrow at Daytona (Ormond) Beach....231 mph....all other record holder (later) used engines, with a displacement they got them into the unlimited size, which run with a charger system...means blown engine.....
No idea why the FIA not shown the Segrave record....
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Another question: who held the FIA class record before Al?
After all the changes in the 60's with the classes and categories it was (as I wrote before) John Cobb and his Railton Special from 1947 (he had the record since 1939 and pushed them higher after WW II, setting the 47 record he was the first to break the 400 mph (one way)
to get the Railton record confirmed as the prerecord to AL
I 11 1 M FS 394.196 634.397 Railton-Mobil Special Reid Railton John Cobb 16.09.1947 Bonneville USA 9
I 11 1 M FS 409.978 659.796 Torque Speed-o-Motive Streamliner Torque Speed-o-Motive Streamliner Elwin Teague 21.08.1991 Bonneville USA 10
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When did the FIA change from letters to numbers for engine classes?
Or to put it another way, was Goldenrod in Class A or Class 11 in 1965?
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When did the FIA change from letters to numbers for engine classes?
Or to put it another way, was Goldenrod in Class A or Class 11 in 1965?
they changed nothing....
the digital number stand for the engine size not the type.....11 stand for unlimited engine size....
the kind of engine N/A or Charged shows the roman number at the beginning of the list....
I stand for charged engine....doesn't matter if a turbo or a supercharger is used....all blown engines
II stand for N/A engine...all engine without a charger
the letters you thinking for the engine size are used for SCTA.....
also the engine sizes are not always the same number on displacement....as an example....45 ci are the same...next bigger engine is 61 ci for SCTA and 67 ci for FIA.....
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Thomas, I am thinking of the AIACR engine classes (introduced in 1925?) which I assumed the FIA inherited in 1946. Nothing to do with SCTA.
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Thomas, I am thinking of the AIACR engine classes (introduced in 1925?) which I assumed the FIA inherited in 1946. Nothing to do with SCTA.
Alright, more information for better understanding
Four wheels vehicles was split into two base categories....
A = special construction....like speed record racer
B = production vehicles
in 1965 they add
C = thrust power - two different type of engine....JE = Jet....RT = Rocket...
A and B stayed for special and production....
but the type or kind of engine was split
I = charged fuel/gas engine
II = N/A fuel/gas engine
FIA makes no different between gas and fuel....
III and IV = diesel engine....
VIII = electric - split in three different weight classes...this changed last year to more weight classes...I think now 12
IX = turbine engine - split, like electric in weight classes - three - and now to more
the piston engines using than the 1 to 11 for the engine size....1 is the smallest, 11 is unlimited
before the engine size was in letters...Frank Lockhart run the Stutz Black Hawk in size D as an example......
hope this helps to understand this categories and classes world inside the FIA record rules...
it could be around 1925 when the start to use this new vehicle classes (A and B)....this was also the time when the short distance speed record vehicles became special construction....before they was regular street cars at first, than regular used race track cars, so the Sunbeam Tiger....Campbell's BlueBird (his first own built, not the 350 hp Sunbeam) was the first just for record breaking built car...and so this first bigger chance in the rules makes sense....
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In the 1930s Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union famously set many Class B (5-8 litre), Class C (3-5 litre) and Class D (2-3 litre) records. In modern terminology these would be engine classes 10, 9 and 8.
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............... and to create even more interest as to who holds which record the Category A capacity classes for 2016 are now thirteen in number (1 to 13!) up by two on the previous year:
1 up to 250 cc
2 250 - 350
3 350 - 500
4 500 - 750
5 750 - 1100
6 1100 - 1500
7 1500 - 2000
8 2000 - 3000
9 3000 - 4000
10 4000 - 6000
11 6000 - 7000
12 7000 - 8000
13 8000
and if you enter a (true) manufacturer production car (Category B) there are now 18 cylinder capacity divisions, starting at 1 - 500cc and ending with 18 - 6000cc plus
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It would seem accurate that Goldenrod exceeded (beat) the Golden Arrow record in what was Class 11, (which had been Class A) and is now Class 13!
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............... and to create even more interest as to who holds which record the Category A capacity classes for 2016 are now thirteen in number (1 to 13!) up by two on the previous year:
1 up to 250 cc
2 250 - 350
3 350 - 500
4 500 - 750
5 750 - 1100
6 1100 - 1500
7 1500 - 2000
8 2000 - 3000
9 3000 - 4000
10 4000 - 6000
11 6000 - 7000
12 7000 - 8000
13 8000
Why?? ?? ?? ?? ?? :x :x
As far as I can tell the Category A capacity classes above 500cc have been unchanged since they were established in March 1925 by the AIACR. What motivated a change now?
So Class 11 (above 8 litres) became Class 13 (above 8 litres) at the end of 2015. But when did Class A (above 8 litres) become Class 11 (above 8 litres)? I think it was some time between 1960 and 1990 but have not been able to narrow it down further!
[Edited to be linked to the correct post. Sorry, brain malfunction.]
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Malcolm & Tricky,
I used by purpose the older 2005 FIA list to be not in conflict with Charles Nearburg run....
the idea for the change from 11 to 13 they had, when they add the weight classes, instead of three now 12 (?)....have to check this
I think both racer match into the 13 (former 11).....Golden Arrow .....24 000 cc.......Summers....28 000 cc.....just a little bit more than 8 000 cc :roll:
to the lists I got it looks that they changed from letters to digital when they done the big change in the 60's.....
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............... and to create even more interest as to who holds which record the Category A capacity classes for 2016 are now thirteen in number (1 to 13!) up by two on the previous year:
1 up to 250 cc
2 250 - 350
3 350 - 500
4 500 - 750
5 750 - 1100
6 1100 - 1500
7 1500 - 2000
8 2000 - 3000
9 3000 - 4000
10 4000 - 6000
11 6000 - 7000
12 7000 - 8000
13 8000
Someone in the FIA is going to have a lot of fun redistributing the records from the (old) Classes 9 and 10 over the (new) Classes 9, 10, 11 and 12! :evil:
And there are going to be some pissed off people who used to hold records with a 4.x litre engine when they discover they have been usurped by others with a 5.x litre engine.
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the chance from 11 to 13 was done when the add the weight classes, instead of three now 12 (?)....have to check this
I think both racer match into the 13 (former 11).....Golden Arrow .....24 000 cc.......Summers....28 000 cc.....just a little bit more than 8 000 cc :roll:
to the lists I got it looks that they changed from letters to digital when they done the big change in the 60's.....
Thomas, the number of FIA weight classes increased from 3 to 11 (not 12) on 1 January 2013. As Malcolm has spotted the change from 11 to 13 capacity classes is only since 1 January 2016.
I had a quick flick through the new Appendix D (available on the FIA web site) and the only other change I could see in this area was splitting hydrogen-powered reciprocating engines into two groups: supercharged and not. So all you people looking to set hydrogen records: you can now double the glory by setting records with and without your turbocharger connected. :roll:
There's also a lot of pages about safety equipment that I don't remember seeing before, but I don't know whether that is new this year.
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...what I can't understand is the big gap in 10....this are two liter....before they used one liter different....and with 11 and 12 they are going back to one liter.....
how makes this sense......this is FIA.... :roll: :roll: :roll:
to get this properly filled....hope to all the record runs, they have now to take care....they got also the data sheet to the engine size....and a lot of records are now sitting between the chairs....means they are not anymore record holder...too big for the record in the lower size...and too slow in the new class....
....and what's up with this racer, who tried to break a record and the speed they set was too slow to set a record...but with the new size rules they had the record....
I'm not sure if the FIA had all this on the screen....they had trouble to keep the mess out of the list with no changes in the rule for the last three decades.....
Tricky, thanks...I wasn't sure if it was 12....so we got now 11......about the engine size....when I talked to the FIA in 2012 about the possible changes in the weight class they also talked about the engine size.....surprised that they need now that long....maybe they realized the conflict with records they are running into.....
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The vehicle driver and event safety supplements are new this year and represent some of the lessons learnt at the Shootout event a day after George crashed. The event regulations will affect anyone attempting an FIA speed record on a straight course. As anyone who is building a spaceframe chassis needs to look at the SCTA rule book, I am sure sales will arise for 2016 and onwards.
What it shows is the FIA Records Commission are aware of what is happening with record attempts and if approached in the correct manner they do respond and make alterations.
So have representations been made to the FIA representatives in Australia and the USA regarding the one hour servicing being changed to 2 hours on the grounds of safety?
[I do not gamble but it might be a safe bet to take].
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The vehicle driver and event safety supplements are new this year and represent some of the lessons learnt at the Shootout event a day after George crashed. The event regulations will affect anyone attempting an FIA speed record on a straight course. As anyone who is building a spaceframe chassis needs to look at the SCTA rule book, I am sure sales will arise for 2016 and onwards.
What it shows is the FIA Records Commission are aware of what is happening with record attempts and if approached in the correct manner they do respond and make alterations.
So have representations been made to the FIA representatives in Australia and the USA regarding the one hour servicing being changed to 2 hours on the grounds of safety?
[I do not gamble but it might be a safe bet to take].
About the safety requirements.....there was more or less no requirements in the FIA rules for safety......in the other hand....the FIA records in the last years was all set by racers which run under the SCTA safety requirement rules....so all this racers were well prepared and if Salt Happens the protection works right...and the driver walked away...
This new safety rules can mean the end of the NAE attempt....this racer had to be modified in some points....depends what the FIA like to see.....if they like to follow the SCTA rules....which would make sense....the NAE team will have a lot of work to fit in.....Invader and Bloodhound are built proper and match to the SCTA standard.....
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This new safety rules can mean the end of the NAE attempt....this racer had to be modified in some points....depends what the FIA like to see.....if they like to follow the SCTA rules....which would make sense....the NAE team will have a lot of work to fit in.....Invader and Bloodhound are built proper and match to the SCTA standard.....
But does the North American Eagle comply with WLSRA safety rules?
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But does the North American Eagle comply with WLSRA safety rules?
One would imagine that when they are written there will be one red car meeting them ......
[The FIA do allow any vehicle of a monocoque design to have 'equivalent safety'.]
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About the safety requirements.....there was more or less no requirements in the FIA rules for safety
Not true. I was reading them just a while ago, before the new ones were posted, and the rule was quite clear. "Vehicle must be of safe construction." (something like that, anyhow)
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. . . Seems quite subjective, but I think the intention is noble (no pun intended).
Back to the subject of "A New Governing Body with new rules - WLSRA", I think that
things should be kept relatively uncomplicated regarding vehicle classifications, categories,
etc. -- particularly if the intent there is to primarily help attempts at really FAST speed
records.
Maybe it could be something like 2 classes:
A) Primarily Wheel-driven (allowing exhaust gases to help with thrust)
B) Other (primarily thrust-driven)
And no, this way it would not be about "fairness". It would be about official (within the
scope of the particular sanctioning organization that recognizes it) acknowledgment of
the speed(s) attained.
I do, however, think that safety should be of extreme importance.
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"Vehicle must be of safe construction." (something like that, anyhow)
....how often did Lee Kennedy heard this when he sent the racer back into the pits without sticker....... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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I was present at the meeting of FIA officials on the salt when the idea of a set of FIA specific safety rules for LSR was proposed. I worked with the FIA for a few months in an attempt to incorporate SCTA safety rules for their use. Eventually, a current salt racer and engineer with credentials far exceeding mine was chosen to draft safety rules. The new rules are a result of this effort.
I missed a chance at a trip to Paris for meetings I guess.
DW
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And another thing . . .
If they're the effing WORLD Land Speed Racing Association, why are they using the flying start mile? The WORLD uses the metric system.
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FIA/FIM recognize both the mile and kilo as record qualified distances. I thought this was well known on this board.
Don't flame me, I am under medication and wine and feeling a bit buzzy after working all day.
DW
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From out here your "blend" doesn't seem to be doing you any harm Dan! :-D
Sid.
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FIA/FIM recognize both the mile and kilo as record qualified distances. I thought this was well known on this board.
Don't flame me, I am under medication and wine and feeling a bit buzzy after working all day.
DW
The WLSRA rules refer ONLY to the mile. I should have been more clear.
My particular interest in kilo world records is that two way kilo record runs, at least for the smaller displacement classes, would be practical at airport tracks. The 12,500 ft. runway at Mojave would allow about a 7/8 mile runup and stopping distance for a kilo trap.
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Loring is 12,500 also.
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The vehicle setup and gearing for the 2 way flying start kilo is the same as that for the 1.5 mile as currently run at these tracks. Adding start lights to time a one way kilo would be very cheap, and seeing timeslips showing that your car or bike was world record capable might build interest in a world record meet.
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My particular interest in kilo world records is that two way kilo record runs, at least for the smaller displacement classes, would be practical at airport tracks. The 12,500 ft. runway at Mojave would allow about a 7/8 mile runup and stopping distance for a kilo trap.
Are you seeking World record interest from Bikes or Cars?
We would love to have such length of runways in the UK but even at 12,500 ft these two tracks unfortunately do not meet FIM requirements. Once over 750cc class capacities for cars the World records are 220/240 mph average speeds under FIA. [The 250cc is about 122 mph set on a UK runway by a Kart]. Most of the kilo records were set on BSF.
Once the FIA has got their new capacity divisions sorted in their record lists there may be some opportunities above 3000cc.