Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Polyhead on January 09, 2016, 03:37:00 PM
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Well, lets start by saying I have little in the way of common sense, or at the very least have no idea how to tell what's a good idea and what's a bad idea until I'm upside down and on fire. So, with that in mind I've decided to give building a car to race on the salt an honest to god attempt. This past summer was spent just getting the car cleaned up, and patching up the many many holes. I have a rule book. However the plan for the next couple of years is to run the car at the 130mph club and 150mph club events. Money, build space, time, are all limiting factors and I don't see this car properly competing at SCTA or ECTA events for at least another 2 or 3 years. That is unless there are people in the Portland Oregon area that want to help. So, it comes down to sitting at home complaning about the things I don't have, or, find a class that it can run in with what I DO have. I've chosen to persue the latter.
Anyway, this is how the car currently looks.(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sD4MKsFRPx9b18QRyRMyhkVkTw0RVGQhhy-IALyQqkDEePTkqscZwKvmW1oQyfh_du5yFvRwrzzoXG1kcwwIX7HXN51L2ncEPrSzhMcE1IxG88INA_hD9wFdheenFIqNS2Zd2I95l0nb0XaHH0FqbL4r8MQj3tN-2QWhXe4MP8BDuycVaMSRu-erFIvhMY_OF3eMWk8JbXMKBZoOs-wXgfR_CAWfnx5Z41C_xXhgWxFNZqYINKgiO988znnNxegajLPKGDzW9WAx7jipP0jI2praIuPdqJmtlk797-zOLDf_7KqxkjZLB_dKTLQ1BBwMTq79xa6ydTdntEQ6GOb5-4MMKwrrXfcXHVV7GszXCB25xoGdBhmGGO96-Hq3oniX3nuSjfk1qpZ2Yf-e5eRCN745v3jlASVriwAckvW_4kp0i4pko523DV8zW3f-Xvd6JMbdrZgOT26NWmv-KRITOTcfB7C1ferq2jmant2SW8fskyi2TwFEuiR6wM6upm6IKl2BM8cpBcfO9o4LLAL8jlXrd28vbP5mOl63OJ7qraVduBPlPJPdFywu32ulkQZ2Nsev=w1243-h698-no)
I've got a collection going over on google Images of work done thus far on the car. Nothing to really get it specifically race ready, still in the stages of repairing 55 years of abuse on the streets.
https://goo.gl/photos/6c5jzkkv6MsCLtc17
No need to tell me how difficult it's going to be. I get it. I've got the rule book. But I think by starting at the 130mph and 150mph club events I can be running the car and getting use to driving on loose surfaces at speed much much sooner than I will any other way.
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EXNER MOPARS ARE THE COOLEST! :cheers:
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Hey, the guys running the big Caddy at Wilmington are having fun. No reason you shouldn't join the club!
https://plus.google.com/photos/115248360774022016668/albums/6198947679277811825?sort=1 Photos in this link Gregg posted in the Wilmington September Photo thread.
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Hey, the guys running the big Caddy at Wilmington are having fun. No reason you shouldn't join the club!
https://plus.google.com/photos/115248360774022016668/albums/6198947679277811825?sort=1 Photos in this link Gregg posted in the Wilmington September Photo thread.
You know the thing is about this car, it's actually rather small, especially compared to that caddy! The weight is around 3400lbs, 18ft long, but wide... REALLY wide, like 6.7ft. We tried to put it on a car dolly back in July and she wouldn't fit! I'm 6'2" and getting in and out of the car without banging my head on things is a chore... this is before the cage goes in! I'm not sure what I'm suppose to do with my legs once that happens. I'll have to put some hand holds somewhere around so that I can just swing through the opening like i'm monkey bars or some crap once all the door bars and crap are in.
That caddy is bad ass though. The guy I bought this car from also has a '72 cadilac hearse that's for sale. Maybe I should have got that instead.....
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I'm more intrigued by the motor home beside it! :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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I'm more intrigued by the motor home beside it! :-D :-D :-D
Pete
Yeah that's my buddies actually. I bought the car from him. There is actually a really great story over on Barnfinds about his adventure in returning UV #307 home.
http://barnfinds.com/jays-1967-ultravan-adventure-part-1/
Very interesting coaches though. I keep telling him he should get them to have a motorhome class and go set the record... at you know, like 50mph... because at altitude and with only a 190hp corvair engine, that's about all it's going to do. The best bit of fun with that thing is tuning the ignition timing and carbs as you're going down the road. Since the engine is under the bed in the back of the coach you can just flip the cover open and fiddle away. That said... that big magnesium fan spinning away with the engine at 3000rpm (who knows how many at the fan I don't know what the drive ratio is at all) is a little bit intimidating at first.
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What a fun read about the trip. It brings up memories of the 40 some years of road trips to Bonneville :-o You never know when your next problem will be or what you will have to overcome to fix it.
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Hi to all: I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that Ultravan. They are really cool and just yesterday a good friend of main saw his Ultravan drive out of his shop after working on it for 9 years. There is a Ultravan club and they do get together. I can't wait to show him this site, he's 76 years old and in poor health but I know he will get a kick out of it. Thanks Mike
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Hi to all: I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that Ultravan. They are really cool and just yesterday a good friend of main saw his Ultravan drive out of his shop after working on it for 9 years. There is a Ultravan club and they do get together. I can't wait to show him this site, he's 76 years old and in poor health but I know he will get a kick out of it. Thanks Mike
Well if he's in the club he'll know that UV. It's owned by the son of a long time UV club member.
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Very interesting coaches though. I keep telling him he should get them to have a motorhome class and go set the record... at you know, like 50mph... because at altitude and with only a 190hp corvair engine, that's about all it's going to do. The best bit of fun with that thing is tuning the ignition timing and carbs as you're going down the road. Since the engine is under the bed in the back of the coach you can just flip the cover open and fiddle away. That said... that big magnesium fan spinning away with the engine at 3000rpm (who knows how many at the fan I don't know what the drive ratio is at all) is a little bit intimidating at first.
Wow! It has a Corvair turbo? Those are the only ones rated at 190 bhp.
:cheers:
Fordboy
No, I mis-spoke, I guess it's the 160hp?... I don't know, the one with 4 carburators from the factory. Although two of the carb holes are blocked off and it now only runs on two...
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What a fun read about the trip. It brings up memories of the 40 some years of road trips to Bonneville :-o You never know when your next problem will be or what you will have to overcome to fix it.
He is suppose to do a right up about the work he did getting it ready for burning man this year. It made the trip just fine but, holy hell the things he found during preperation for that road trip. Like, bent tie rod ends, worn out hiem joints (the entire front steering gear is heim joints), crushed U joints in the trans axle, bent axles, axles that were the wrong length... carbs that didn't work right. Ugly stuff.
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This was at El Mirage in November. '55 Desoto with a Duramax. Cool build, and you wouldn't know it from the exterior, but really well done.
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63/64 turbos (Rajay "B") are 150hp
65/66 turbos (Rajay "F") are 180hp
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Suffice to say that we're looking at one desperately underpowered motor home.
Doesn't mean it's not very hip - but I recall touring the Black Hills in a VW Vanagon, 7 people on board.
You could count the guardrail posts as we slowly slinked by.
But back to the Dodge.
Am I to judge by your handle that we'll be seeing a Poly head Mopar under the hood?
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If I remember from the foggy past your Dodge will not be the first one. I think that a fellow named Norm Thatcher ran one when it was new with maybe a 413 and ran over 180 and he might have come back with a 6-71 on it and gone faster. I am sure that some of the "old" guys that have been around for a while, Glen or Freud?? remember.
Rex
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This was at El Mirage in November. '55 Desoto with a Duramax. Cool build, and you wouldn't know it from the exterior, but really well done.
I want to know what he's running for axles. Those things are real monsters. ... also, I hope he routed the exaughst through the bumper. I kept thinking about a diesel swap in the phoenix, and then run the exaughst out the backup light holes in the bumper. Rolling coal out of the bumper would just be cool... crap performance of course, but cool.
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Suffice to say that we're looking at one desperately underpowered motor home.
Doesn't mean it's not very hip - but I recall touring the Black Hills in a VW Vanagon, 7 people on board.
You could count the guardrail posts as we slowly slinked by.
But back to the Dodge.
Am I to judge by your handle that we'll be seeing a Poly head Mopar under the hood?
Those vans were much lighter than you would think, about 4500lbs fully laden. All aluminum monocoque center section with lexan windows and a fiberglass nose and tail. With the kitchen/bathroom removed and all the tanks empty they weigh in around 3400lbs. In other words, actually lighter than the car! They actually kind of haul ass... you know... for a 22ft RV with an air cooled engine...Till you hit 50mph and the aerodynamics come into play. Then it's like 70mph down a 6% grade with the throttle on the floor.
Something else that should be mentioned is that... with 12" of foam and blankets and 20ft of distance between you and the engine, you don't hear it at all.. i mean not a single bit! Along with that slip-n-slide powerglide trans in it, it's like driving an electric car. Then there is the crazy crazy big windshield on it. The only way to get a better view is to be on a motorcycle. You just can't appreciate the view out of the front of one of those till you've been in one. Then of course you realize that you're riding in what amounts to a canoe shell at 55mph and that the crumple zones are your knees. One wrong move and you'll be enjoying the view of a honda in your lap.
But back on the dodge, yes. Just ordered one of Chrysler Powers brandy new small production run, air gap style intake for a 318 poly. Next step after that is fitted is to start adapting the LA mopar paxton kit to the poly. This actually fixes several problem areas. My era of poly had no harmonic balancer. But if I add an LA one, which is easy to get, I get some pully misalignment. Well I'm not keen on the generator, would rather have alternator, but that's a pain to replace a well. BUT the paxton kit has it's own alternator bracket built onto the blower bracket! I can knock in a couple of holes on the blower bracket and the drilled/tapped holes on the heads of the poly will then be usable, move some spacers around and make new ones here and there, and viola, I get an alternator, spaced for LA style pulleys, which then allows me to run an LA harmonic balancer, and a saginaw power steering pump intended for an LA application, and probably the LA engines aluminum water pump. And I get boost... because, freakin' everthing is better with boost.
This engine received a rebuild in the early 90's and then got parked. it's in excellent condition, no visible wear in the bores (I had the heads off to be sure), even some of the hone cross hatching is still visible! One problem.... they used LA 318 pistons in it.. reducing it's compression ratio to only 8.2:1 (if my math is right... I own a set of depth mics, i'm fairly confident.) So it's rip apart an engine that isn't destroyed just to uprate the compression, so I can destroy it, or, boost it till it detonates.....No reason to throw pistons away that don't have holes in them! (yet)
I still need to find a header shop to make some headers for me, or, buy a tig machine and roll my own. At this point, with the hassle of trying to make this work, I may make my own. That said, I keep getting this idea that ends up with a header that would require removal of a torsion bar to install. If it were a drag car I would have just cut holes in the fenders and dumped it over board out the wheel wells high and mighty style....
Anyway, intake is scheduled to arrive next week.... $600 for that damn thing...
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If I remember from the foggy past your Dodge will not be the first one. I think that a fellow named Norm Thatcher ran one when it was new with maybe a 413 and ran over 180 and he might have come back with a 6-71 on it and gone faster. I am sure that some of the "old" guys that have been around for a while, Glen or Freud?? remember.
Rex
I've got the Wiend Add featuring his car hanging on my wall! Along with an extensive collection of photos of his cars and engines. The thing I don't have is ANY details on the car. where was his weight box, did he have a weight box? how much weight? What trans? what did the cage look like? How did he keep the hood from comming off.
I have been able to work out from the photos that his hood scoop was just a piece of pipe cut in half and then welded to the top of the hood. I'm going to reproduce that just for shits and giggles, although it may not pass for c/cpro if I do this, I'll just have to run my "good" hood that isn't cut up at bonne.
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As I recall, the DeSoto had most of the diesel truck,s chassis. It runs Time Only.
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As I recall, the DeSoto had most of the diesel truck,s chassis. It runs Time Only.
That's kind of what I was thinking. Sure look like truck wheels and axles to me. I don't follow when you say it runs time only.
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I believe that because of body and chassis modifications, it doesn't fall into any specific SCTA category.
No, there isn't a class for everything -- but most can run SCTA events under the Time Only category if they meet specific safety requirements (and often a speed limit).
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EXNER MOPARS ARE THE COOLEST! :cheers:
I also love the Exner MOPARS! I've got a '55 Lancer project (not race) car in the garage. I'll be following this one.
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Most people don't get too excited over a 4bbl aluminum intake arriving... but the world of polyshperical engines is weird.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7LXH2VlufQ1lRGvZSZLNOH6a-4KlEShS1GaGx1IkTyAO7aTwFrNEL-zU8Jetb6cf5NjQqhazgWSy3GkbnUzfYyHyBfGOSgTga9pyfdYxmglEUyKVSywbo3W6XfeJkaXDb35R6NFj_m-7qVzkNnWgD2WTt7znd6_xlB16Bqni9TqiOQM7VyM1-jGwC2eAQqFKaFdDh13HOBMRmkFfN4kJOxGqaN2VQAsGTs6WW3quHaIPZ2UNmbaAAyH3MjgHJSFA_y19aCZy1O8Qdp5LqIjRlQIpC56SkgYc-Q-69dU4iu3B85ulI5CcAgzEHTNOgRsJS_YeKq2Fgc_QyTfbXcHr3x28f2m0yfBWVXTZaJnqjygEg5uWUw0-BBGFW5P7yqnNJII_klNfeRaEaT21UL2XZ29I3svMKS8nM_g55ioW1L3o3kVcqY672TqND7yb0wSDfubsGmImYmeYCIRDaoHyzvrK8CSCJ0C_Kv-hmOux2fxP4HU_8veEC5HBnecm_gA_6UzYeSLWznRaT6opYkIo2tXcI0BOUI3fkvLNLfvRAPipZY7IaghFKDX0_1qZjhZUzvvg=w1243-h698-no)
Looks amazing, the entire underside of the manifold is milled, which is weird. They seriously could have done a better job deburring this thing though. All of the pipe threads have serious burrs at the thread leads, all of the ports have serious burrs inside the ports and there are burrs all the way around. Nobody deburred this thing! Certainly wouldn't fly where I work. Anyway... time to get a file and get to work.
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Typical hot rod stuff: Some modification required".
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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They seriously could have done a better job deburring this thing though. All of the pipe threads have serious burrs at the thread leads, all of the ports have serious burrs inside the ports and there are burrs all the way around. Nobody deburred this thing! Certainly wouldn't fly where I work. Anyway... time to get a file and get to work.
About 20 years ago, Edelbrock sent me a Performer 390 manifold with the same issue. I spent an hour just getting it to the point where it was safe to handle without chainmaille gloves.
Typical hot rod stuff: Some modification required".
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Just once, though, wouldn't it be nice to receive a finished part?
Would any of us accept a television from Best Buy that needed the receiver circuit soldered into place?
If any of us walked into Home Depot and left with a Weber Grill, would it be too much to expect that is has paint on it, or that the grate is chromed?
Not beating up on you, Doug, but why are we as racers expected to accept half baked products?
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They seriously could have done a better job deburring this thing though. All of the pipe threads have serious burrs at the thread leads, all of the ports have serious burrs inside the ports and there are burrs all the way around. Nobody deburred this thing! Certainly wouldn't fly where I work. Anyway... time to get a file and get to work.
About 20 years ago, Edelbrock sent me a Performer 390 manifold with the same issue. I spent an hour just getting it to the point where it was safe to handle without chainmaille gloves.
Typical hot rod stuff: Some modification required".
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Just once, though, wouldn't it be nice to receive a finished part?
Would any of us accept a television from Best Buy that needed the receiver circuit soldered into place?
If any of us walked into Home Depot and left with a Weber Grill, would it be too much to expect that is has paint on it, or that the grate is chromed?
Not beating up on you, Doug, but why are we as racers expected to accept half baked products?
In my experience most televisions DO need the receiver circuit sorted! Not to mention the power supplies. I can hear the power supplies on most LCD screens 3 or 4 blocks away splattering all over 20 and 40 meters! They wipe out half the HF spectrum in some cases! But I degress, i'm just being a nit picking ham.
anyway, for $600 ($700 landed) they could have paid someone to take a file to this thing. It's dangerous to handle for the layman I would think. Being a machinist I know to watch for sharp spots on any machine aluminum surface, others though.... If someone gets sued, I won't be shocked.
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Ben, would really love to see that special single plane "POLY" intake, could you repost the pic please?
How much did it end up costing you ?
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Ben, would really love to see that special single plane "POLY" intake, could you repost the pic please?
How much did it end up costing you ?
https://goo.gl/photos/WYPNzCJy5dcL8cV78
Not sure why the link is broken...
It's actually a large plenum dual plane. It's made by the same folks that make the hot heads early hemi stuff. Apparently it's been tweaked by tom Hoover as well as others for the poly engine. The runners ate pretty generous. I'll use spacers under the carb to lift it till the hood barely closes and it should do pretty well.
Any way try that link.
Cost delivered was $700
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This thing is fighting me. I am trying to post some examples of FI manifolds That I made for my Plymouth four cylinder. The larger TBs are from a 4.6 Ford and the smaller from a 750 Suzuki GSX. I used to be able to get these things for $15-$20 each. But now they seem to be going more for $50. I don't know why. Also a old 331 Chrysler Hilborn FI half that I cut up. turned sideways and put on a Lotus 907. (Jensen-Healy).
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Thanks Ben, That was the one I thought you had, I forgot it was dual plane, unlike the last aftermarket intake which was made by Weiand many decades ago. That Weiand one was just a single four knock off of the Factory dual quad, weird cause the intake divides the left and right bank makes your V8 into 2--- 4 cylinders.
great if you want a lumpy idle... :-D
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Thanks Ben, That was the one I thought you had, I forgot it was dual plane, unlike the last aftermarket intake which was made by Weiand many decades ago. That Weiand one was just a single four knock off of the Factory dual quad, weird cause the intake divides the left and right bank makes your V8 into 2--- 4 cylinders.
great if you want a lumpy idle... :-D
I'm not sure what you mean. Dual planes always have superior idle quality and partial throttle response compared to a single plane. Single planes have a habit of only working wide open and even then only when the Rpm gets above 3000rpm. Higher peak power in a single plane intake however. Almost all factory intakes are dual plane.
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Thanks Ben, That was the one I thought you had, I forgot it was dual plane, unlike the last aftermarket intake which was made by Weiand many decades ago. That Weiand one was just a single four knock off of the Factory dual quad, weird cause the intake divides the left and right bank makes your V8 into 2--- 4 cylinders.
great if you want a lumpy idle... :-D
I'm not sure what you mean. Dual planes always have superior idle quality and partial throttle response compared to a single plane. Single planes have a habit of only working wide open and even then only when the Rpm gets above 3000rpm. Higher peak power in a single plane intake however. Almost all factory intakes are dual plane.
A few years ago Edelbrock made a big single-plane SBC manifold that they called "4+4". It wasn't terribly popular although it was very closely related to their Victor E. Even today Edelbrock says that it was a very good manifold.
I suspect that it was a victim of its name- 4+4, which was too similar to 4x4. I'll bet that, like me, they misread the name and thought it was made for four-wheel drive trucks & RVs.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Thanks Ben, That was the one I thought you had, I forgot it was dual plane, unlike the last aftermarket intake which was made by Weiand many decades ago. That Weiand one was just a single four knock off of the Factory dual quad, weird cause the intake divides the left and right bank makes your V8 into 2--- 4 cylinders.
great if you want a lumpy idle... :-D
I'm not sure what you mean. Dual planes always have superior idle quality and partial throttle response compared to a single plane. Single planes have a habit of only working wide open and even then only when the Rpm gets above 3000rpm. Higher peak power in a single plane intake however. Almost all factory intakes are dual plane.
A few years ago Edelbrock made a big single-plane SBC manifold that they called "4+4". It wasn't terribly popular although it was very closely related to their Victor E. Even today Edelbrock says that it was a very good manifold.
I suspect that it was a victim of its name- 4+4, which was too similar to 4x4. I'll bet that, like me, they misread the name and thought it was made for four-wheel drive trucks & RVs.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Oh I see, so it was a dual single plane design. I think all of Chrysler's cross ram setups are such a design. Then again the long ram setups had an equalization tube. I guess those would be a semi dual plane.
That edelbrock thing could really give people fits I bet. People tend not to read instructions. If you made the mistake of a progressive dual carb setup on that intake...
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Chrysler used many "360 degree" (divided single plane) manifolds including almost all 2 X 4 except the ram type.
The new manifold is very pretty and I would guess the CFM flow per runner and mixture distribution are excellent, but with a blower these things have significantly less impact.
Your displacement is small enough that an Eaton M122 (Ford Lightning etc.) off eBay may work well, with an adapter plate to locate it above a 2 X 4 manifold (or other with the top milled off).
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Chrysler used many "360 degree" (divided single plane) manifolds including almost all 2 X 4 except the ram type.
The new manifold is very pretty and I would guess the CFM flow per runner and mixture distribution are excellent, but with a blower these things have significantly less impact.
Your displacement is small enough that an Eaton M122 (Ford Lightning etc.) off eBay may work well, with an adapter plate to locate it above a 2 X 4 manifold (or other with the top milled off).
There are several problems with that. First, this is the only intake for a poly that is in production. The chances of finding an old dual quad intake are slim, and will bring over $1500. A Paxton setup will be cheaper and more readily available.
Also, I have to say I'm not real impressed Roth this intake on the face of it. The coolant passages look choked off and the intake ports are in even in both shape and size. It's just not a very good casting. The OEM intakes were certainly better made.
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Chrysler used many "360 degree" (divided single plane) manifolds including almost all 2 X 4 except the ram type.
The new manifold is very pretty and I would guess the CFM flow per runner and mixture distribution are excellent, but with a blower these things have significantly less impact.
Your displacement is small enough that an Eaton M122 (Ford Lightning etc.) off eBay may work well, with an adapter plate to locate it above a 2 X 4 manifold (or other with the top milled off).
There are several problems with that. First, this is the only intake for a poly that is in production. The chances of finding an old dual quad intake are slim, and will bring over $1500. A Paxton setup will be cheaper and more readily available.
Also, I have to say I'm not real impressed Roth this intake on the face of it. The coolant passages look choked off and the intake ports are in even in both shape and size. It's just not a very good casting. The OEM intakes were certainly better made.
Well, you could be using this quite rare factory single 4 bbl intake instead. :-D :-D
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/gearheadeh/Poly%20318/1957-4bbl_zpsbb5d071a.jpg) (http://s179.photobucket.com/user/gearheadeh/media/Poly%20318/1957-4bbl_zpsbb5d071a.jpg.html)
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Chrysler used many "360 degree" (divided single plane) manifolds including almost all 2 X 4 except the ram type.
The new manifold is very pretty and I would guess the CFM flow per runner and mixture distribution are excellent, but with a blower these things have significantly less impact.
Your displacement is small enough that an Eaton M122 (Ford Lightning etc.) off eBay may work well, with an adapter plate to locate it above a 2 X 4 manifold (or other with the top milled off).
There are several problems with that. First, this is the only intake for a poly that is in production. The chances of finding an old dual quad intake are slim, and will bring over $1500. A Paxton setup will be cheaper and more readily available.
Also, I have to say I'm not real impressed Roth this intake on the face of it. The coolant passages look choked off and the intake ports are in even in both shape and size. It's just not a very good casting. The OEM intakes were certainly better made.
Well, you could be using this quite rare factory single 4 bbl intake instead. :-D :-D
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/gearheadeh/Poly%20318/1957-4bbl_zpsbb5d071a.jpg) (http://s179.photobucket.com/user/gearheadeh/media/Poly%20318/1957-4bbl_zpsbb5d071a.jpg.html)
You know the thing is, this car was a factory 4bbl Polyhead car.. Somewhere along the line it's original engine went missing and was replaced with a 2bbl engine. The base engine in the 1960 Phoenix was a 4bbl equipped poly.
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-28199
I think I may have had a brilliant bit of luck! The Dodge P7 heads have port spacing similar to an LS7. The port spacing of a polyspherical is similar to an LS-7... Meaning, this raw as cast intake can probably be machine to work on a polysphere! and better yet, it's CHEAP(ish). I just might know a machinist that can take tackle this job!
Has anyone on the forum played with a Dodge R5 and P7 combo?
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-28199
I think I may have had a brilliant bit of luck! The Dodge P7 heads have port spacing similar to an LS7. The port spacing of a polyspherical is similar to an LS-7... Meaning, this raw as cast intake can probably be machine to work on a polysphere! and better yet, it's CHEAP(ish). I just might know a machinist that can take tackle this job!
Has anyone on the forum played with a Dodge R5 and P7 combo?
Why not an intake made for an LS7?
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That's what I thought after reading HRM this month. I also notice that a 1050 CFM Holley seems to be most popular with the killer Y block using two 750s.
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-28199
I think I may have had a brilliant bit of luck! The Dodge P7 heads have port spacing similar to an LS7. The port spacing of a polyspherical is similar to an LS-7... Meaning, this raw as cast intake can probably be machine to work on a polysphere! and better yet, it's CHEAP(ish). I just might know a machinist that can take tackle this job!
Has anyone on the forum played with a Dodge R5 and P7 combo?
Why not an intake made for an LS7?
Because these were only $80 and unmachined.
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Ben, We love photos here. I've never seen those heads. How about some pics?. Thanks, :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Ben, We love photos here. I've never seen those heads. How about some pics?. Thanks, :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Which heads? The dodge P7 heads?
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soooooo... needed to move the car today and tried to fire it and no dice. I swapped in points ignition back in because the parts are there and it fired right up. -_-;
I'm thinking just ditch everything in there and go with a complete MSD setup. Everyone seems to run them, probably a good reason for that. But my home built setup appears to not be very reliable. :P
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How did the points look ....... Maybe it was just a matter or remaking a connection that was slightly corroded.
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How did the points look ....... Maybe it was just a matter or remaking a connection that was slightly corroded.
Well it had been sitting for 3 months, so, that's probably the case. Removing the electronics and having the points carry real load and real voltage would mean a stronger signal and therefore ignition that works. You're probably spot on with that. They looked better than the mouse that refused to be evicted! He got bashed in the head with a 9/16ths, not pretty.
But lets face it, ideally I would be using a magnetic or optical triggered system. But lately there are a lot of choices for chrysler products since mopar performance quit making their electronic ignition conversion kits. MSD Billet goodies, HEI style systems, and of course, magnetos. I like the idea of a magneto but, i'm sure more modern technology is both more reliable and more powerful. Cheaper as well.
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It will be easier to find replacement parts if needed if you are
running MSD. O'Reilly carries MSD, so that's always a plus. Hope-
fully they are in Utah/Nevada area.
Most people are running MSD AL?. I just don't have the extra
room for such a setup in my TBucket. But I do have an AEM
AQ-1 data acquisition system to measure several inputs like
TPS, MAP, Acceleration, and AFR .....etc. Sure helped me tune
the Demon carburetor.
Good Luck! :cheers:
Rick Miller
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One of the many issues with polyheads is lack of gasket kits if you want anything other than OEM style. The OEM intake manifold gasket is steel. These are known to crack aluminum intakes (so I'm told.) Not wanting to risk a rather rare and expensive aluminum intake I decided to make my own composite gaskets since you can't buy them. (well you can but chrysler power want way too much for them and they don't come with foam end seals anyway.)
I got a late start, spent too much time working on camera stuff. But so far I'm happy with the results. The Harbor Freight hollow punch set seems to work reasonably ok in this application. I've used the metal gasket as a pattern. Only time will tell if this is a good idea or not.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/VmkZMcInQPMfd2OnL1XDT6oceqGcg0F-KvY1vIaZlvYNNRAUwzqoymIXeXJECqx5TKQSu55BjMnv7b-jEbiejIKJCvdVJnzi0yfu2T2NXnUP-a8BwGIGzavVyXV6zJ1sPKozmR7wK6tjfpPHovSWOarq6-GIWqnztSEvvcT2APLXfBIfbpbbcAA_P3tq2Mi3-VMRDpI2qsdL2Oznm2Q_d3O9J9W7HDfra7u1ViqmHOrFf5GO0-G-y3ghJQZVXA0BCAHRyILmP3DwwDH37AWAH70BrPtzdSL3lq2HUT0cTpJJFroekatfd-kV6QuGVkhnEIJQtj0dZPMLJdIs6koCttJQr4YOa1x076leMuwRWYCrs6l9PrVkNkyN8nEeNzkBcDYxD5tLBJkyfric8GTIK0jK6eo1S5-1zUpxmu-CJoMu1yZdD8ay-W72Ls9RoFYQfNU8PDp4dKhKv6IHan3-u5rAmJR8a3Z0yBqNslEYtoCvB9pM9I6lbst4TX-h4e7DS6MDO-YsKuOppWBEmtJTd5Tnqd1dyzpFIfyLvEZVeMQId9HeLqZhIeGI9a8pcdL7Xz10=w1243-h698-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/CLxGOQVhGdc0yo0cfXOJ4VdaSyN4ZG_zqjEYzRYzF0Apqoyg6F7SxD-yFqpqkydB4ZZpvP8f06Hl8bB-sVkUHh9m2N53-Gz7SgRxtioUM9KGfUWCyzhRwoOVnQHC1MYVy8DCEhfY8ZBeUmg5ukkcoam-F-6z7aB7IajKFGsmaYEgSNmgEu2rs3p00nE_Q4cLUbZK_C_OwPAVNXFZIjawwkgDQYvV9auwkPbCXVJ4wNQdyxTfRbYuas7UQmiRip6C8-WS9AWrfInWIMr5V4UiBIpBsyMVuQB7WB_Tp_QkmnEm27PWqeVI-yUUJZqvIUFbPXVJO6Y-9CS6r94y11l-IeZn7EqkO1G3rfDfsXKqUclh2JMtNVrFDWSxrZn9JjrZKhvX6LwpJ2n86OMeK_lIWfWBwl4RtsShPnWyup_x3T3HKM2pWjsh2bqKb-43JQYG9w48TZIK4Kk3y0CDdhdahgXBXXPv_lYDQwz9GITsk4VKci8hQY7hj3shbFKF_4HmMyfdsor7Jzn8KjZ1Ja2hx6ETnuuwiBzqDHcLZIVPdgcZPGG3GVvi07k-sxM5RRfgcwW3=w1243-h698-no)
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I used that same gasket material to make a supercharger to manifold gasket for my B&M blower, hasn't leaked yet. I'm guessing you'll be fine.
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Is that engine a Mopar 273, 318,340, or 360?
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Is that engine a Mopar 273, 318,340, or 360?
Wobbly, it is the grandfather to those, the Poly 318
Very nice work on the gasket, how much to have you make me a set or 2? :-D
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Is that engine a Mopar 273, 318,340, or 360?
Wobbly, it is the grandfather to those, the Poly 318
Very nice work on the gasket, how much to have you make me a set or 2? :-D
I would never do it for money, but I would do it for beer! I should get a shot of those gaskets now that they are totally finished. They came out pretty slick. My only worry is that they may be a little on the thick side. I think I'll be just fine though.
The project is stalled a bit right now as I have to take care of some other things with my money and time. I've come up with a set of brackets to convert the car to an alternator, so getting rid of the generator setup and reworking the wiring harness for an althernator is the next project.
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Ditch the alt/gen all together. You should be able to run on just the battery for the length of the course.
Just one less parasitic loss on the engine.
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Ditch the alt/gen all together. You should be able to run on just the battery for the length of the course.
Just one less parasitic loss on the engine.
This car pulls double duty as a street car though. of sorts... it's a little loud inside.
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Is that engine a Mopar 273, 318,340, or 360?
Wobbly, it is the grandfather to those, the Poly 318
Very nice work on the gasket, how much to have you make me a set or 2? :-D
I would never do it for money, but I would do it for beer! I should get a shot of those gaskets now that they are totally finished. They came out pretty slick. My only worry is that they may be a little on the thick side. I think I'll be just fine though.
The project is stalled a bit right now as I have to take care of some other things with my money and time. I've come up with a set of brackets to convert the car to an alternator, so getting rid of the generator setup and reworking the wiring harness for an althernator is the next project.
Cool, however not too likely that I would be down that way anytime soon, Nice work though :cheers:
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Hmm so... maybe the alternator swap needs to happen sooner than later. I broke my word and fiddled with the car on saturday anyway. Charging system failure. Bypassing the exciter output end of the voltage regulator did result in a generator that made power. Looks like I get to rip the voltage regulator apart, again... or hurry up and swap that crap out of there.
I'm kind of dragging my feet on this because I want to go blown with the car via a paxton setup. Now the small block mopar paxton bracket has an alternator bracket built onto it. Everything looks like it'll fit the poly with a few modifications. The biggest concern is header clearences. Well, since I haven't started on the headers yet anyway, I was going to get all that crap in the car then build headers around that junk rather than try to fit that junk around the headers. But... the car is really starting to force my hand on this issue. I should probably just take the easy/cheap way out and put in a GM style one wire setup in it... but it makes me feel dirty.
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Ben, this is a link to something that might be adaptofitted to the dart.www.paxtonauto.com/product.php?id=127 (http://www.paxtonauto.com/product.php?id=127)
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Ben
Flip side of the cheap/easy one wire installations is they take the voltage signal from the alternator output and don't compensate for any voltage drops between the alternator and end use points. If you think you might be using any electronic engine controls in the future you should consider a self regulated set up that runs a voltage sensor/signal wire from the point of use back to the alternator. 'tronic stuff can act real weird real fast at anything less than 100% full voltage. Been there.......... :-D
Ed
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Ben
Flip side of the cheap/easy one wire installations is they take the voltage signal from the alternator output and don't compensate for any voltage drops between the alternator and end use points. If you think you might be using any electronic engine controls in the future you should consider a self regulated set up that runs a voltage sensor/signal wire from the point of use back to the alternator. 'tronic stuff can act real weird real fast at anything less than 100% full voltage. Been there.......... :-D
Ed
Well, and that's why i'm loathe to do it. I realize that. Yeah I should just swap in an OEM chrysler setup. Really all I need to make that work is the bracket from a polyhead with an alternator, and then cut the generator mount from the exaughst manifold. Early polyheads like mine have the generator mount on the exaughst manifold. Of course something similar is needed to put headers on the car. I'll just have to hit some junk yards and see what turns up.
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Ben, this is a link to something that might be adaptofitted to the dart.www.paxtonauto.com/product.php?id=127 (http://www.paxtonauto.com/product.php?id=127)
That's what I was already talking about. Note the location of the alternator. it's mounted to the super charger bracket. It shoudl solve several problems. to go that route.
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That is quite the expensive alternator mounting bracket... :mrgreen:
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That is quite the expensive alternator mounting bracket... :mrgreen:
but... but... boost!!
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https://vine.co/v/ipqXWrnuA2B
Today was the day. Today she went on the road for the first time since 2008. Tommorrow she gets a vin inspection and proper plates. Then onward to the 130mph club.
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How fun -- taking it on the road after all that time. :-D
Enjoying the ride so far? It gets better and better...
73 from WA8GDW a/k/a SSS
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Cool car!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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How fun -- taking it on the road after all that time. :-D
Enjoying the ride so far? It gets better and better...
73 from WA8GDW a/k/a SSS
Yeah... it rides, ok... needs stiffer torsion bars and shocks up front. Both are in good shape but I want to get the ride height lower and as is it's very easy to bouncer her off the stops over any speed bump. Needs new tires too.
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An excellent machine and one to be proud to own. That car is from the era when beer cans were opened with church keys and then evolved to pushing in two dots on the top of the can. The little one let in the air and bigger hole let the beer escape. Such fond memories. Does it have the push button trans?
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It's the sequel to '57's "Suddenly it's 1960!"
Brings back a lot of good memories from those times.
Ed
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An excellent machine and one to be proud to own. That car is from the era when beer cans were opened with church keys and then evolved to pushing in two dots on the top of the can. The little one let in the air and bigger hole let the beer escape. Such fond memories. Does it have the push button trans?
It does have a pushbutton torqueflight, with the accumulator spring removed, shifts very nicely. :D
Because it was the upper trim level of the line, it came standard with 4bbl polysphere, 11" drums, 8 3/4" diff with 2.76:1 gears, and power steering. The difference in price over the base model Seneca was about $200 so they were expensive cars for what they were. This one has no optional extras, it's the absolute base model phoenix. The only thing the origonal owner spent extra money on was a two tone paint job, which cost him the lofty sum of $4 extra.
I do plan to convert her over to manual at some point, I even have the factory delete panel for the push button unit in storage. This year though, we'll beat up on the 727.
But yeah, proud to own, you have no idea. The car is just too much fun and blows minds everywhere it goes. I've only run into about 4 people that even knew what it was.
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It's the sequel to '57's "Suddenly it's 1960!"
Brings back a lot of good memories from those times.
Ed
Which is to say "suddenly we look dated!" The car was probably behind the times in styling in 1960. But at the time it took chrysler two years to go from design to production on bodies. So, the car was designed in 1958, didn't see the light of day till 1960. Virgil Exner could design a car though.
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IIRC back in the 1970s there used to be a street racer on Union Tpke. (Queens, NY) called "Batman" with a '60 coupe, 413 New Yorker junkyard engine, 727, with a few bits in it, won a few.
Famous for a safety incident: speeding along, the hood came unlatch and (duh) blew up and blocked his vision. What to do?
He pulled over, tools out, removed the entire hood and propped it up against a bus stop sign, and drove away - much to the amazement of the waiting bus passengers.
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needs stiffer torsion bars and shocks up front.
At least in the later years (my 72) they had a heavier torsion bar option used in the models with A/C. Switching to the stiffer bars was a nice change in handling for more "energetic" driving.
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Or a B/RB. or trailer tow package
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Or a B/RB. or trailer tow package
I'm not sure if they did that in 1960. I've asked a few "experts" and just got "I don't know if they did or didn't"
I may just resort to coil overs. I would need to re-enforce the shock towers to keep them from bending in that case.
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I'm pretty sure trailer tow was offered in the 300F.
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I'm pretty sure trailer tow was offered in the 300F.
I haven't found any information about tow rated springs, however, I have found information on torsion bar options. there were slant 6, v8, B/RB, wagon, and D500 torsion bars. Dodge, Plymouth and chrysler/desoto had their own spring rates, plymouth aparently had the stiffest set labelled "furry" torsion bars.
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Wish I had photos, but I don't, got some progress made.
Steering wheel off, finally. After 3 months of near daily shots of PB Blaster the puller just slipped the stearing wheel right off. Man that stuff is good.
Horn: Still not working, but now the ground/rotor issues are fixed and the horn button activates the relay, now I need to wire up a new relay.
Turn Signals: Fixed, and man do I feel dumb. I thought for sure the switch was hammered, as it turned out it was a single loose screw allowing the fork to slip off the top of the switch. So the entire issue was a screw loose behind the steering wheel.
Back up lights fixed
Heater blower motor fixed, The inline fuse holder on it had cracked.
Electronic iginition fixed itself, could have just been low battery voltage
Rear diff pinion seal was replaced, now she retains the gear lube back there.
Next up, drop the drive shaft and have it rebalanced. The car picks up a vibration around 70mph and I suspect it's the drive shaft.
On top of this I put some serious millage on the car to start shaking crap loose, I'm driving this junk to bonne so, need to see how it behaves. Drove from Portland down high way 26, up in the mountains around mt. hood till it connected up with highway 35. Drove highway 35 into Hood River across the toll bridge into White Salmon Washington where I stopped in at Everybody's Brewing for lunch and sour ales and finished it up with a nice nice nice double IPA. After hanging aorund for a couple of hours to sober up I continued on highway 14 into Washugal to refill the tank. 11 gallons up it's butt and drove her home into Portland. Totally road weary, didn't even use an entire tank. It may not have power but man that thing gets good fuel economy. 20mpg. It'll almost be a shame to ruin that.
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Turn Signals: Fixed, and man do I feel dumb. I thought for sure the switch was hammered, as it turned out it was a single loose screw allowing the fork to slip off the top of the switch. So the entire issue was a screw loose behind the steering wheel.
Lucky you... lots of issues, especially that loose screw thing, can be resolved if you remove the nut behind the wheel... :evil:
:cheers:
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Turn Signals: Fixed, and man do I feel dumb. I thought for sure the switch was hammered, as it turned out it was a single loose screw allowing the fork to slip off the top of the switch. So the entire issue was a screw loose behind the steering wheel.
Lucky you... lots of issues, especially that loose screw thing, can be resolved if you remove the nut behind the wheel... :evil:
:cheers:
hahahaa... yeah, good luck with that!
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Switch plate bolts to steering wheel retained by 4 bolts.
Contact plate, horn ring adapter, retained by 4 bolts and 4 plastic spacers to switch plate.
Horn ring retained to horn ring adapter by 4 bolts.
Folks... that's 20 parts for the horn on this car... and no assembly diagrams to work it all out, just a bandaid tin full of screws and parts, mixed in with other interior screws. Never mind that the horn ring is in two pieces and that uses two more screws to retain the emblem. Never mind the horn relay and the two horns... I spent probably 8 hours total getting the horns working. I need a beer, but i'm just going to go to bed instead.
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Progress!
All holes in floors welded shut. Still some work to do in the trunk. (not rot, hack job performed by previous owner)
New U-Joints... The rear was especially bad, began making noise. Not clunking, but squealing. The U-joints were the 55 year old factory Detroit units! Rebuilt the ball and trunion with an old but new in box TRW kit and the rear is sporting a new Moog 315G. The failure of the rear U-joint was because one cup was packed with rust. It must have sat for some time with that one U-joint pointed down in the weeds for just one single cup to fill with water and stay filled!
TUNES! Hey it's a long drive out there. Modern tunes were in order. Made a face plate and installed a modern DIN unit. Bluetooth and hands free in a 55 year old car is a bit odd but nice. Rear packing shelf was already cut for a pair of 6x9 speakers so those factory locations were utalized and a 10" sub where the back seat use to be. Now I can rock out with my ... you know...
Competing in the 130mph club event is still up in the air, but at this point it's at the very least capable of the long haul from oregon to utah to spectate. Work has become spotty, catching lots of MTO so the shop can make ends meet. This cuts into the parts budget. The largest problem this creates is in the area of safety equipment. The car shipped with no seat belts at all and the 130mph club event requires at the very least a 3 point belt setup. With a bench seat and no B-pillar mounting such becomes extremely difficult. The only sollution I have found is to install a 4 point roll bar and race seats with a 5 point. Honestly this is the best solution anyway as, a 3 point belt is going to do me no good at all in the sort of event that would make 3 point belts useful. If the car goes over on the lid the roof is going to pancake, that's just what these cars did. The A pillar has a dog leg in it and there is no B pillar, seat belts become a moot point.
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Ben said: "... The car shipped with no seat belts at all ..." Were seat belts optional back then, do you know? My first car was a '59 Thunderbird that I bought second-hand. It had factory seat belts when I first saw the car - but I didn't see the window sticker to see if they were factory.
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I believe it was 55 or 56 that Ford made seat belts an option. That may be the first ones.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Ben said: "... The car shipped with no seat belts at all ..." Were seat belts optional back then, do you know? My first car was a '59 Thunderbird that I bought second-hand. It had factory seat belts when I first saw the car - but I didn't see the window sticker to see if they were factory.
Seat belts were an option, however, this car was ordered with NO optional equipment so there you go. Even then it was a lap belt only.
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I believe it was 55 or 56 that Ford made seat belts an option. That may be the first ones.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
The '48 Tucker had seat belts standard. :-D
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Sooo, work has been spotty, things are slow in the old machine shop and this has lead to lots of days off. Bills are still getting paid buuuut, really cuts into the budget on the car.
That said, progress has been made. Seat belts are in, secondary firewall is in and she passed NHRA tech. Now why would I take it to an NHRA event? Well, I have to abuse the old girl somewhere, and streets are a bad place for this. The results? It's slow... REAL slow. The best ET was 17.56 at 78mph. 2.622 sec to 60 ft with a good bit of wheel spin. It didn't get out of second gear, and pulling 78mph through second is a good actually. It was still pulling at the 1/4 mile. The car probably actually has a good shot at pulling 130mph in the flying mile.
Ignition timing is perplexing thus far. at 28 degrees total she goes 17.56, at 32 degrees it slows WAY down and only ran 17.87 and gives up 1.5mph. This goes against everything I have read. Seat of the pants feel seems like 25 degrees total gives best acceleration. I need to get to the drag strip on a less busy night, where I can get more than 5 runs in and play with timing more. Fuel is ARCO 87 octane. I didn't HEAR any detonation and i'm not seeing any signs of it on the tops of the pistons (got myself a boroscope) or on the plugs. In theory, as far as my understanding goes, the lower octane I can get away with the better as the burn time is shorter on lower octane fuels. So my short stroke big bore engine will from my understanding want a quick burning fuel. But then again, detonation would explain the fall off in performance.
Now some of you are going to ask what my shift point was. The truth, I have no idea. The tach doesn't like my home built CD ignition and begins to swing around like it's drunk. I need to work out some sort of tach drive circuit, and the couple of things I have tried haven't worked at all. This is a real kick in the jimmies. I may abandon my pride filled but somewhat unfunctional home built CD system for an MSD setup... if I can get some hours at work.
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There is a Union 76 station just east of I-5 at the Ellingson Road exit in north Wilsonville. They sell an unleaded non-ethanol premium that is consistent quality and is the best pump gas for racing. Far better than ARCO.
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I don't see the advantage of non ethanol fuel. If anything the ethanol kicks up the anti knock index. It'll also lower intake charge as the vaporization of ethanol will absorb more heat than gasoline. If the car isn't detonating then the fuel is good enough. Also the car seems to prefer Arco fuel. I'm unsure why that is. It's a cheap date sort of car I guess. If you have since sound logic otherwise I'm listening.
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Subscribing
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Is this build still live??? I have some 57 354 Poly heads for the asking.
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Different motor.
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Thanks for the responses--- heads are committed for