Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: ggl205 on January 02, 2016, 10:37:55 AM
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I am far enough along with my lakester chassis to post a few images (if file sizes will allow). The frame started out as a 1984 Reynard FC car mostly because a) I had it b) I fit in it and c) about 85% of all the parts were there to complete the car. Three other considerations were limited space to build the thing, even more limited resources to transport it and that my engine, transaxle and rear suspension fit without modification. All that said, the car still needed to be built and assembled in two pieces. This way, I can transport the car with my short open trailer and garage storage will be easier. OK, that is the background. Here are some of the car basics:
1. 150" wheelbase.
2. Front and rear suspension. A big thank you goes out to stainless for allowing me to copy 90% of his front
suspension.
3. 36.5" tall from bottom of chassis to top of roll cage.
4. 26" wide at widest part of chassis excluding suspension and wheels.
5. Overall length has yet to be determined but should come in somewhere around 220" to 250".
6. Estimated frontal area less all outboard goodies is 6.85 sq. ft.
7. Cd is a big guess but based on less aerodynamic formula cars and my first lakester, I am guessing around
.40 but could be a little better.
8. 1.625"X.095" 4130 in driver cell, 1.50"X.095" 4130 in front section.
9. Front axle is 1.75"X.125" 4130 with trailing arm supports stitch welded (I listened, Rob).
10. Rear section behind driver is pure Reynard FC using 1"X1" square mild steel.
As soon as I get a few images of the chassis and front axle formatted correctly, I will send them along.
John
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Here are a few more images.
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John, you are a welding machine! 8-)
Sid.
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John, you are a welding machine! 8-)
Sid.
Sid, I wish those were my welding skills but sadly, they are not. Those skills belong to a friend of mine at Buzzard Racing in Kenosha, WI. He builds and repairs sprint and midget chassis with the occasional LSR frame. John Callahan is his name and an absolute magician behind a welder.
John
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10. Rear section behind driver is pure Reynard FC using 1"X1" square mild steel.
I think that's a brilliant idea, right there. Most of your chassis engineering and driveline packaging is already a proven design, and it lets you concentrate on what you need to do to make is safe and fast.
:cheers:
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Powered by ??
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Powered by ??
A four cylinder, 2.0L Ford Cosworth BDG variant. Burton Brown used it in his streamliner last year along with my Hewland Mk9 sequential 5-speed transaxle which is is also going in the lakester.
John
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Having a little trouble adding an image to my last post. Here is one of the engine I will use.
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10. Rear section behind driver is pure Reynard FC using 1"X1" square mild steel.
I think that's a brilliant idea, right there. Most of your chassis engineering and driveline packaging is already a proven design, and it lets you concentrate on what you need to do to make is safe and fast.
:cheers:
That was my thinking, MM. Hope it works out that way.
John
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I've talked with Woody and Burton about that engine a lot. It's a marvel. Even the engineers at Ford gave it a critical look-over at PRI in 2014.
It's a lot of power for that Hewland box.
Your transmission might be the weak link in this combo, but I also think LSR on a slick surface will prove less punishing than road racing a similarly powered vehicle.
How much are you weighing in at?
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I've talked with Woody and Burton about that engine a lot. It's a marvel. Even the engineers at Ford gave it a critical look-over at PRI in 2014.
It's a lot of power for that Hewland box.
Your transmission might be the weak link in this combo, but I also think LSR on a slick surface will prove less punishing than road racing a similarly powered vehicle.
How much are you weighing in at?
Target weight is at or under 2000 pounds dry or roughly what my first G lakester weighed. This Mk9 Hewland was used successfully in LSR for about eight years behind a YBM Cosworth producing 306 hp and 185 ft. Lds. of torque. Granted, this combination was run at Bonneville exclusively but the old YAC Cosworth Sports 2000 road racing series cars used a 180 ft. Lbs. YAC engine behind a relatively stock Mk9 without incident. Considering these were road racing cars raced on asphalt and concrete tracks, banging gears pretty hard at full throttle, I do not see any reason why this new engine would damage the gearbox when it produces just 5-10 Ft. Lbs. more than the YAC. But like the man says, "you pays your money and takes your chances". We will see how it all sorts out. My new car will initially be set up for an airport track so if there is a weak link, that track surface will find it quickly.
John
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John said: "A four cylinder, 2.0L Ford Cosworth BDG variant." Looking at the picture of your little "banger" I would say the word "variant" is not quite strong enough! Two sets of injectors!? Not knowing the details of this engine is it a good guess that each of the intake valves has it's own intake tract and therefore the double injector setup?? How about a little more info??
Looking at your chassis I like the two part idea but it also looks like your body will be of the "gutter and down spout" design, i.e. flat side panels with a flat bottom similar to a rear engine dragster. Not the most aero but that dynamite engine may make up for the non optimal shape. Keep us up to date, great build and love the concept.
Rex
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John said: "A four cylinder, 2.0L Ford Cosworth BDG variant." Looking at the picture of your little "banger" I would say the word "variant" is not quite strong enough! Two sets of injectors!? Not knowing the details of this engine is it a good guess that each of the intake valves has it's own intake tract and therefore the double injector setup?? How about a little more info??
Looking at your chassis I like the two part idea but it also looks like your body will be of the "gutter and down spout" design, i.e. flat side panels with a flat bottom similar to a rear engine dragster. Not the most aero but that dynamite engine may make up for the non optimal shape. Keep us up to date, great build and love the concept.
Rex
Hi Rex:
The engine employs two intake tracts, both offset opposite each other from centerline of valve(s). This offset generates swirl well ahead of charge fluid entering the cumbustion chamber. Cams profiles look like street units with low lift under .480" and duration just over 300 degrees. This engine could easily benefit from more aggressive cams but I am happy with the 342 hp available. I believe Burton is working on a 375 hp version with more serious cams.
You concluded correctly that this car will be more or less, slab sided, with a flat bottom. But don't count out the aerodynamics of this setup. Ride height will be between 1" and 1.50" and travel of around 3/4". Keeping air from migrating under the car via low ride height and a near 100% perimeter splitter, negative lift should be helpful to grip and handling. Lakester streamlines are hard to keep laminar due to so much turbulence coming off wheels and other extremities but there may be ways to mitigate some of this turbulence. I haven't worked that out yet and CFD would be very helpful here. Also keep in mind that body shape will not necessarily follow chassis form.
John
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John said: "A four cylinder, 2.0L Ford Cosworth BDG variant." Looking at the picture of your little "banger" I would say the word "variant" is not quite strong enough! Two sets of injectors!? Not knowing the details of this engine is it a good guess that each of the intake valves has it's own intake tract and therefore the double injector setup?? How about a little more info??
Rex, excuse me if I seem surprised that you haven't heard about this one.
Here's the teaser from Woody's website.
http://www.designdreams.biz/design-portfolio-1---cfd-studies.html
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Looking at your chassis I like the two part idea but it also looks like your body will be of the "gutter and down spout" design, i.e. flat side panels with a flat bottom similar to a rear engine dragster. Not the most aero but that dynamite engine may make up for the non optimal shape. Keep us up to date, great build and love the concept.
Rex
Rex, I am curious what you might consider an optimal lakester shape... but maybe that needs its own thread...I recall a lot of successful lakesters are your garden variety "gutter and downspout design". Thinking a lot of the 300 MPH lakesters are flat sided...
John, looking good, guess I should come visit in person :cheers:
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I don't think you'll have any problems with the Hewland box.
Some really nice ratios for them if you can still get them. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Looking at your chassis I like the two part idea but it also looks like your body will be of the "gutter and down spout" design, i.e. flat side panels with a flat bottom similar to a rear engine dragster. Not the most aero but that dynamite engine may make up for the non optimal shape. Keep us up to date, great build and love the concept.
Rex
Rex, I am curious what you might consider an optimal lakester shape... but maybe that needs its own thread...I recall a lot of successful lakesters are your garden variety "gutter and downspout design". Thinking a lot of the 300 MPH lakesters are flat sided...
John, looking good, guess I should come visit in person :cheers:
Stainless, you know you are welcome anytime.
John
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I don't think you'll have any problems with the Hewland box.
Some really nice ratios for them if you can still get them. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fortunately, I have all sets made left over from the road racing days.
John
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Most Hewlands behind small(er) engines are reliable to the point of boredom. But once you exceed the design input levels of torque and rpm, things tend to go downhill quickly.
The "rhino" case is helping "elevate" the max torque the box can handle. I'm thinking you "might" be close to the edge though. Checking ring and pinion wear should be a regular inspection. Use a small inspection camera inserted through the original drain plug, now on top of the R & P section. You might have to drain the gear lube. Genuine Hewland R & P sets hold up the best, if they are still available. We had lots of problems with Mk 9's behind YC's, until we upgraded to "rhino" cases. They were then, just acceptable. The drivers were not the easiest on the gearboxes though . . . . . .
And 1st and 2nd gears might be an issue at elevated torque input. I'd run the integrated shaft 1st gears only, and I would run as tall a 2nd gear as the car will stand. 2nd gears tend to break in the small section(s) between the bottom of the gear teeth and the tops of the shaft splines where the gears are broached for the splines of the 1st gear shaft. The small section there tends to be weak and can not withstand excessive torque for its' size. Taller gear ratios are thicker there. You will want to look carefully at both 1st & 2nd gears, anytime the gearbox is apart. A tipoff is: if the 2nd gear becomes difficult to "slide off the 1st gear shaft", it is probably distorted, and should be discarded. Every "distorted" gear I've ever seen, has failed "magnaflux". The 1st gear shaft can become "twisted" as well. The tipoff is that the other gears, (2nd, 3rd, etc) will not slide easily on the shaft splines. That is the discard point.
And I think it is important to note that gearbox "wear" varies with a driver's "driving style". The old Indy joke was that Rick Mears never broke gearbox pieces, but Mario Andretti could break a Hewland just by walking by it . . . . . .
YMMV
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Fordboy, all good advice and I do plan on a thorough inspection of the box when I get it back. The R&P in the box now is a genuine Hewland and has just a few passes on it since new. I will keep my fingers crossed.
On another subject; I noticed you are from northern Illinois. About three years ago, we moved from Cary, Illinois (just below Crystal Lake) where I retired from AERA (Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association). We loved it there and made some lasting friendships in neighboring Kenosha, WI. Weather could be a little rough but tolerable. I raced Lola cars at surrounding tracks and found proximity to the Newman-Hass Racing quite handy.
John
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Stainless,
I know that there are many flat sided "top fuel" shaped lakesters that have gone fast, in fact very fast,I think that "Fast Freddy" right about 380 mph, but you will agree that most of them have a blown huge motor bolted in the back which would probably make almost any shape fast. I do have an opinion on the optimum lakester shape but as you said it should probably be discussed in a thread of it's own.
Rex
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Stainless,
I know that there are many flat sided "top fuel" shaped lakesters that have gone fast, in fact very fast,I think that "Fast Freddy" right about 380 mph, but you will agree that most of them have a blown huge motor bolted in the back which would probably make almost any shape fast. I do have an opinion on the optimum lakester shape but as you said it should probably be discussed in a thread of it's own.
Rex
Rex, I would think it fare to discuss pros and cons of my lakester body here on this thread. I looked at a number of different shapes that were practical to build and made my dissision based on a few simple factors. First, I wanted air to flow faster over the top and sides than it does under the car. This is pretty easy to do so flat bottom it is (I like pressure differentials so long as they work in my favor). Secondly, I wanted air to flow over the body as laminar as possible so no torturous paths. Slab sides work pretty well in doing this and makes it easy to contain any spill that may occur. Thirdly, it had to be something I could make without spending a fortune. I accept the fact my lakester is not aerodynamically optimal but then which ones are? Keeping a few basic aero features in mind can generate positive effects. Sure hope I can get it right enough.
John
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On another subject; I noticed you are from northern Illinois. About three years ago, we moved from Cary, Illinois (just below Crystal Lake) where I retired from AERA (Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association). We loved it there and made some lasting friendships in neighboring Kenosha, WI. Weather could be a little rough but tolerable. I raced Lola cars at surrounding tracks and found proximity to the Newman-Hass Racing quite handy.
John
I know Cary well. My wife & I had a school friend who lived there for years. And my oldest son has just moved to Pleasant Prairie WI. And of course I have spent countless hours @ Road America, etc. My engine shop was in Wauconda IL, still there in fact, still run by my ex-partner.
When you live close to a border, you end up operating over and across it a lot. I grew up a big winter sports guy and loved the weather. Now, not so much. But I'm not ready to move as 3 of my kids and my wife's close family still live here. So I guess I'll have to tune-up the snow blower occasionally . . . . . . and install a heater in the garage . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Stainless,
I know that there are many flat sided "top fuel" shaped lakesters that have gone fast, in fact very fast,I think that "Fast Freddy" right about 380 mph, but you will agree that most of them have a blown huge motor bolted in the back which would probably make almost any shape fast. I do have an opinion on the optimum lakester shape but as you said it should probably be discussed in a thread of it's own.
Rex
Rex, I would think it fare to discuss pros and cons of my lakester body here on this thread. I looked at a number of different shapes that were practical to build and made my dissision based on a few simple factors. First, I wanted air to flow faster over the top and sides than it does under the car. This is pretty easy to do so flat bottom it is (I like pressure differentials so long as they work in my favor). Secondly, I wanted air to flow over the body as laminar as possible so no torturous paths. Slab sides work pretty well in doing this and makes it easy to contain any spill that may occur. Thirdly, it had to be something I could make without spending a fortune. I accept the fact my lakester is not aerodynamically optimal but then which ones are? Keeping a few basic aero features in mind can generate positive effects. Sure hope I can get it right enough.
John
John,
Your intentions are well stated, lower pressure beneath the car and laminar flow over the car but you need to do some thinking regarding how you intend to do both. Flat bottom cars need to be at extremely low ground clearance to limit air under the car probably less than 3/4 of an inch. With any type of suspension this would be difficult. To generate down force you need to have the air under the car accelerated to a velocity higher than the air going over the car (Bernoulli's law verifies this) so you may want to think harder about your ride height. Laminar flow is always the very lowest drag but long flat panels do not promote long runs of laminar flow and also flat panels unless they are very stiff like to deform from the aero forces (look a the bodies of top fuel cars at 300 mph none of them are flat!) this deformation will not provide laminar flow. Laminar flow can be translated into turbulent flow by protrusions as small as .010 inches or even less. Getting the aero right on a lakester , in my opinion, requires close attention to details and especially to the wheels/tires and their selection, placement and any aero attachments that you may conceive along with a proper body design that will promote laminar flow and a general attention to fit and finish.
Rex
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Rex:
My target mph is in the 230's. Body distortions shouldn't be much at that speed or at least they were not for my first lakester. That car had an all aluminum body and was quite angular. Let's face it, front wheel location is never going to be optimal and I would be happy to just be able to effectively manage tire wake. As I see it, I either go narrow and tall or small and wide for tires. I chose narrow and tall (21"X 3") for front tires. If I build the body I have in mind, the top will be more rounded but converge to slab sides. If I knew where to put them, I would use vortex generators to keep air moving along those straight sides. I believe I mentioned my ride height will be between .500" and 1.50" depending on track surface. Rex, I use pretty stiff springs for the sole purpose of holding ride height at target speed. With a .500" suspension travel (or less). I should be OK with air flow under the car and enough travel for my dampers to work correctly in bump and rebound. I almost bit my lip when mentioning laminar air flow for a lakester but it does have its place. I haven't worked out those details yet and may take a few attempts to understand all that I will be working with for the new car. But that is the appeal of LSR racing for me; all those little unknowns that make themselves visible at the most inconvenient times (lol).
John
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Rex:
Ask "Woody" (Dave Woodruff) to send you files depicting streamline velocities, pressures and orientations for the BUB streamliner body. That too is slab sided and manages to hold straight air streams over the entire side area. If lucky, I will be using a narrowed and cut down copy of this body.
John
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"I almost bit my lip when mentioning laminar air flow for a lakester but it does have its place"
Reminds me of an old T-shir my buddy had
I have given up on reality by I refuse to give up my fantasy
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Hah! I think more than a few of us suffer from that, Sparky.
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"I almost bit my lip when mentioning laminar air flow for a lakester but it does have its place"
Reminds me of an old T-shir my buddy had
I have given up on reality by I refuse to give up my fantasy
Sparky, I believe that you can have laminar flow on a lakester body if you place the front axle properly and "aero" it correctly. Obviously laminar flow on the wheels is not possible.
Rex
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So this begs the question: Where should the front axle be place on a Lakester?
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boundary flow is the possible reality
laminar flow control is the fantasy YMMV
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So this begs the question: Where should the front axle be place on a Lakester?
Between the wheels? :? :?
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I'VE GOT THIS! :roll:
At the front.
Sorry but I had to.....
Anyway, getting back to earth , I do have a sensible suggestion. Every pound you have in front of the front axle is less downforce on the rear end. Put your front axle as far forward as you can if only for that reason, it is basic fulcrum stuff.
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boundary flow is the possible reality
laminar flow control is the fantasy YMMV
So, you are saying no part of a lakester can enjoy laminar air flow? I may disagree, Sparky.
Airflow over an object creates a boundary layer. If Reynolds number are low, the boundary layer can be laminar without turbulence irregardless of surface or shape. In LSR, we see much higher Reynolds numbers and now shape and surface become more important for those boundary layers not to go turbulent. I believe much of a lakester body can reasonably manage turbulent boundary and even achieve laminar properties in some areas. I am speaking of those parts of the body begining with the nose all the way back to rear axle. A round front axle can legally be faired within the rules so long as fairing does not exceed the inner vertical plane of the tire. Tire wake is another matter but it may be possible to redirect this inner wake so as not to mix with body streamlines. I periodically see evidence of this on F1 cars going back as far as 1970. Sparky, I agree that generating laminar air flows is quite difficult, even futile, on any LSR car but there are places where it can be done with little effort. I do concern myself more with common boundary turbulence and intuitively try to manage it. If I could have Woody for a week, much of this could be better optimized.
John
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Rob Freyvogel and Brandon Barnes' Project 66018 was designed and built completely around the ability of the NACA 66018 air foil shape being design specifically to have "long runs of laminar flow" to quote Abbott and Von Doenhoff. Several things are involved in obtaining "long runs of laminar flow" one is "fairness" which is the smoothness and fits of the body (could be a problem for Sparky) sorry Sparky, the other is to have a shape that promotes laminar flow, a flat panel is not one of those shapes. If you fair the front axle properly into the front of the body you can greatly reduce or eliminate the loss of laminar flow at the front of the car, read "The Leading Edge" by Goro Tamai.
Rex
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If we can, I would like Woody to chime in about the BUB streamliner body. He has all the data on that shape and it is slab sided. Woody?
John
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Chime rant: Virtually all real world fluid flow is technically turbulent! Flow can be turbulent but still be smooth around a given shape. Some sail planes and experimental aircraft are achieving very high laminar flow results (on the wings) but under very controlled (& slower) conditions. [Read Bruce Charmichael's: Personal Aircraft Drag Reduction and you will find out about laminar separation bubbles, too!] IMO, Rob's toy will not quite get their results but will be far better than any other wheeled vehicle to date! E.g. Longer runs of laminar flow! High laminar flow may be a worthy techincal goal but me thinks not the highest priority for most builders! Now Blue can tell us we're all full of s**t [salt?]! While BUB may appear slab sided there is subtle curvature and shaping designed to improve the pressure gradients within the design limits imposed by safety considerations, packaging and the rule book! It's all a compromise guys! Besides almost anyone's sexual appliance can go 400 mph with 1500 HP laminar flow or not! :-D Chime over! :cheers:
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So this begs the question: Where should the front axle be place on a Lakester?
In the front Marty!
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My first introduction to air flow was airplanes and then gliders and sailplanes. On a lakester just the tire squirt of salt spray is going to kill most laminar flow but maybe not boundary control efforts. YMMV
I would like to quote my favorite German Red Hat holder, " You can spend millions in design, wind tunnels and construction and have it all undone by sitting in the sun for 15 minutes." May not be exact but pretty darn close and I have witnessed on the salt exactly what he is referring to. YMMV
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IMO with enough horsepower you can make a barn door fly. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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My first introduction to air flow was airplanes and then gliders and sailplanes. On a lakester just the tire squirt of salt spray is going to kill most laminar flow but maybe not boundary control efforts. YMMV
I would like to quote my favorite German Red Hat holder, " You can spend millions in design, wind tunnels and construction and have it all undone by sitting in the sun for 15 minutes." May not be exact but pretty darn close and I have witnessed on the salt exactly what he is referring to. YMMV
Hi Sparky:
I may be a little rusty on what I learned (or possibly slept through) decades ago in fluid dynamics classes but it helps to define which flow volumes we are talking about. Often, I think, when discussing laminar air flows, we tend to think of those volumes with very thin boundary layers, i.e. sail planes. Those volumes are, as you correctly state, are not very likely achieved on a lakester. Laminar flows I am talking about enjoy larger boundary layers and are not turbulent. These flows are achievable on a lakester. My concerns surround those forces that would interfere or otherwise disturb those laminar flows. I have one of those red hats too and find that when I wear it, I am no smarter.
John
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It was a beautiful day in Wichita, Kansas so I decided to unpack a few storage boxes of Reynard FC stuff to hang on the lakester. I hoped that moving this car around the country for nearly two decades had not lost anything important and to my pleasant surprise, it was all there. I am using a bone stock 1984 Reynard Formula Continental rear suspension and wanted to see if it all still fit. It uses the transaxle for some of the suspension mounting positions and hoped the parts were serviceable. As you can see from the images, everything is usable but needs stripping and painting. Even the rod ends and sphericals were usable. I like these a little on the worn side so they all seemed perfect. No play but loose.
I made so much progress today, I thought I would try getting into the car. Oh my, do I need to loose a few pounds. Actually, more than a few pounds. I can get in but very difficult getting out.
John
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HMMMM---dam there you go dealing with the reality of the
present 74 6'2" 250# tight 40" Wranglers pre shrunk stiff with Uncle Authur
in the past 20 6"3" 192 tight 32" Levis not pre shrunk limber could but my heels behind my head YEP stuff happens with time LOL
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HMMMM---dam there you go dealing with the reality of the
present 74 6'2" 250# tight 40" Wranglers pre shrunk stiff with Uncle Authur
in the past 20 6"3" 192 tight 32" Levis not pre shrunk limber could but my heels behind my head YEP stuff happens with time LOL
Amen, brother, amen.
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I wanted to ask about the inboard lower control arms.
Aren't they going to bind under load?.
The rod end looks very close to the bulkhead.
Great build despite my question. :cheers: :cheers:
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While BUB may appear slab sided there is subtle curvature and shaping designed to improve the pressure gradients within the design limits imposed by safety considerations, packaging and the rule book!...
A few pictures of BUB...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/b-ville%20meets/2006%20BUB-10.jpg)
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/b-ville%20meets/2006%20BUB-12.jpg)
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/b-ville%20meets/2006%20BUB-13.jpg)
.... maybe about the lowest Cd numbers of anything that has run on the salt. Slab sided at the very back. Sam's...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/b-ville%20meets/2006%20BUB-17.jpg)
...liner is there also and probably wins on frontal area (just as important).
More on them and Ack Attack (the one that got it done with the record) here, but is from the 2006 Bub Meet...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/b-ville%20meets/2006%20BUB-index.html
I think it would be unfair to leave Max's streamliners...
(http://www.vincentstreamliner.com/BlackLightning/2003-2004/thumb.jpg)
...out of the group above. He hasn't had the engine sucesses the others have had but his body shapes and especially his frontal area figures are right up there. Also notice I said "streamliners". He has built a number of them...
http://www.vincentstreamliner.com/BlackLightning/2003-2004/
John great build and the best to you and the car on the salt,
Sumner
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Sumner, wrong BUB and yes there is a story! Our BUB is my avatar! Short story version: When I got involved with that liner there was no project name. Every project deserves a name even if it is irreverent!
One of the sponsors was Bottoms Up Furniture company and everyone liked Betty Boop so I coined BUB - Bottoms Up Betty. And yes I knew the original BUB story so ours is the family version. In 2009 I did a project presentation at a SolidWorks World and noticed that the original BUB was there so I swapped voice mails with Denis for a few weeks before we connected. I asked him why he did not remember me since we had met in 1970 when he ran his first "BUB". We had a good laugh about it all! LSR people are the best! :cheers:
Denis's BUB is shaped liked a salmon so he likes to say he has a very low Coho-efficient of drag! :-D
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I wanted to ask about the inboard lower control arms.
Aren't they going to bind under load?.
The rod end looks very close to the bulkhead.
Great build despite my question. :cheers: :cheers:
Good eyes, Tauruck. Those inboard lower links actually attach above where you see them on my car. The transmission must be in the car, then another piece is bolted to it and captures the rod end. This will allow the link to move freely in bump without binding. Here is a picture of a car with the same suspension.
John
Thanks John. Now I get it. :cheers:
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Sumner, wrong BUB and yes there is a story! ....
Sorry about that..... :-P :cry: :cry:,
Sumner
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A little more progress. Forecast is for warm weather this week and the time I expect an engine to arrive. The car is now ready for it so good timing. Since Bonneville is questionable for racing right now, I am setting up for a mile track. So, the five speed Hewland gave way to a four speed unit. I hope there are enough gears.
John
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Nice setup John.
Is that a Hewland gearbox? :cheers:
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Nice setup John.
Is that a Hewland gearbox? :cheers:
Yes. It is a Hewland Mk9.
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zIt looks like your about the same distance from Wilmington as we are 800 miles +-.
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John Stowe and Ted Wenz sure build a beautiful engine even without the exhaust or FI stuff attached. Fits like a glove in my chassis too. What's not to love?
John
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All of it looks great.
Beautiful motor.
More pics please?.
Thanks. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Any dyno tq/bhp numbers you are willing to share?
:cheers:
fordboy
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Any dyno tq/bhp numbers you are willing to share?
:cheers:
fordboy
I'll see what I can get, Fordboy. I will need those data to gear up properly so when it becomes available, I will post it.
John
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What happened to the Burton Brown "special" from page one?
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What happened to the Burton Brown "special" from page one?
Jack, the Burton streamliner is still a viable race car but will be using a different transmission going forward. Burton tells me he still plans on using an upgraded Stowe 2.0L engine (more hp) but will decide that at a later date. For now, the transaxle and engine are going in my lakester.
John
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Any dyno tq/bhp numbers you are willing to share?
:cheers:
fordboy
OK, here are the numbers (see attachment). What doesn't show on the dyno sheet are power figures from 7,000 to 8,500 rpm. At 7,000 there is 250 hp, 7,100 272 hp, 7,500 285 hp with 194.6 foot pounds, 8,000 290 hp and 8,500 310 hp. The attached dyno sheet takes it the rest of the way. There is approximately another ten horses left in tuning and another 35 hp with larger valves and bigger cams. Cams in the engine now are considered street cams.
John
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All of it looks great.
Beautiful motor.
More pics please?.
Thanks. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
OK, here are three more. Everything is now on the engine and looks like it will fit inside the body without external air scoops or body bulges.
John
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What happened to the Burton Brown "special" from page one?
Jack, the Burton streamliner is still a viable race car but will be using a different transmission going forward. Burton tells me he still plans on using an upgraded Stowe 2.0L engine (more hp) but will decide that at a later date. For now, the transaxle and engine are going in my lakester.
John
Sorry, without all the injectors in the picture, thought you were using something else. I looked at that at the PRI show (concept anyway) 2014. Sweet.
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Any dyno tq/bhp numbers you are willing to share?
:cheers:
fordboy
OK, here are the numbers (see attachment). What doesn't show on the dyno sheet are power figures from 7,000 to 8,500 rpm. At 7,000 there is 250 hp, 7,100 272 hp, 7,500 285 hp with 194.6 foot pounds, 8,000 290 hp and 8,500 310 hp. The attached dyno sheet takes it the rest of the way. There is approximately another ten horses left in tuning and another 35 hp with larger valves and bigger cams. Cams in the engine now are considered street cams.
John
Thanks, looks interesting. Any reasoning on the manual test?
My understanding is that this is a 198?cc based on a Ford/Cosworth bore spacing architecture. Is that correct?
With peak power at 9900 rpm calling the cams, "street cams", is perhaps a "stretch", although they might be considered a "soft" race grind by builders with a lot of Cosworth experience.
Anyway, the results are an impressive gain over a Cosworth BDG. Can't wait for more info.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Yes, the low end is pure Cosworth BDG. The cams are soft racing that by todays standards are street grinds. .450 lift and 300 degrees duration is pretty mild.
John
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Work progresses but at a snails pace. Humidity has been high all week so that makes it worse. But things are getting done. So far, I am pleased with how the car is coming along. No big hurdles so far but like my golf game, there are at least two disastrous holes in 18 lurking out there, waiting to unleash havoc.
The driver cell is nearly complete save fire bottle plumbing, shift and parachute levers and electrical. I hopped in the car last night to see where shift and chute levers should be placed. Happily, there are good locations for these parts.
One question for the group; there is a window on each side created by a forward facing support bar and top of main chassis rail. Once I am belted in, they are well above my hands but will I need to cover these windows or can I leave them open?
John
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If all goes well, the car should look something like this.
If the rear wheels look smallish, that is because they are. This is a one mile to 1 1/2 mile airport track setup. Front tires are 22" diameter while rears are 20.5" diameter. 1" to 1.5" ground clearance.
John
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John, we need to belt you in, with arm restraints, if you can get your hands outside the protective envelope of the cage you will need to add inner panels.
Let me know when I should drop by to get you tucked in there... do you have belts yet?
Fired the motor in the Bockscar, next stop is probably the dyno.
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Stainless:
I spoke with Joe Timney yesterday and he is ordering a 7 point harness for me. Not sure when it will arrive but when it does, I will give you a call. In fact, I may have you stop by when you have the time so I can identify where to cut my seat for the lap belt to come through.
Hey, if you are going to the dyno, can I tag along? I love dyno time.
John
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Finding 7-point belts isn't easy, many companies who used to offer them have discontinued 7-point belts. I ordered mine from DJ Safety and was well pleased.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Stainless:
Hey, if you are going to the dyno, can I tag along? I love dyno time.
John
The dyno is in his shop :-D
John
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Finding 7-point belts isn't easy, many companies who used to offer them have discontinued 7-point belts. I ordered mine from DJ Safety and was well pleased.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Neil, Joe named the company for the belts but he did say they would likely be custom. Hopefully this will not be too long a process. But I like 7 point if done right.
John
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"The dyno is in his shop" :-D
Hah!
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John,
If you have problems getting the belts, Schroth Racing SFI 16.5 Hybrid III belts are a 6 point that will accept a 7th anti sub strap standard. All of the shelf stuff, had mine in a couple days. Can get either 2" or 3" shoulder and lap belt depending on if using Hans type head restraint. Not the cheapest but nice belts.
Andy
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Thanks, Andy. If Joe has trouble obtaining a 7 point, I will let him know about Schroth.
John
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Thanks to Stainless for allowing me to use much of how Boxcar is front suspended, my car is now ready for damper valving and springs. Both will have to wait until the car is nearly done but I can at least get a baseline suspension setup with wheels on.
John
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Hey John, I also have scales if you need them in the future.... I need to come over and see your art in progress
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I have finally completed front suspension and steering. The big holdup was finding clevis' that fit 3/8" rod ends! Stiletto offers them as an option for their rack & pinion systems but just try to buy them separately. Anyway, these clevis' are kind of a strange duck. They take 3/8" rod ends but require a .500" wide slot to fit the rod end ball. Almost every 3/8" clevis I found had a .375" width slot. Not sure what goes in these clevis' but a 3/8" rod end will not fit. So, I thought I was forced making these parts when I did an unusual Internet search. I asked for a birdcage clevis. Behold! Four of them popped up and all fit a 3/8" rod end and a .060" AN washer to fill the gap (slot width is .560"). They even had the 5/8" threaded shank that fit my tie rods. Speedway Motors sells them but I figure it is common among circle track racers.
Nuts and bolts are not tight but just wanted to see if everything fit (they do). Spring rates and damper valving will be accomplished soon after the car is completed. Time is almost here to bolt front section to the main tub. It will look more like a race car then.
John
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Seems like undue concern to use clevises there, if the rods are merely in single-shear at their outer ends. :?
Nice looking work!
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Making a little more progress on the lakester. Coolant, coolant recovery, heat exchangers, dry sump system plumbing, sequential shift, and parachute are now complete. Fuel and fire plumbing are next.
John
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looking at the front suspension it looks like you have some nice anti dive and caster. It doesn't look like a lot of king pin inclination though, from the picture. Do you have a good idea where your scrub radius will end up?
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Scrub is .370" positive.
John
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Time to build a body beginning with the nose. I really need to get this part right or everything after it is way less effective. To retain desired shape we made a 3D printed copy in six sections. We will laminate top and bottom with .010" thick twill and epoxy resin.
John
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More specifically, .010" thick Twill what? :? Also that seems a bit thin. What did you print with as far as material goes? By the way it sure looks good. :cheers: Wayno
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More specifically, .010" thick Twill what? :? Also that seems a bit thin. What did you print with as far as material goes? By the way it sure looks good. :cheers: Wayno
Wayno, twill is the fiberglass weave I will use. It conforms well to compound curves and has decent strength properties. Yes, two layers of .010" thick fiberglass cloth does sound thin but it will be used primarily to reinforce the .060" ABS from the 3D printer. Depending on smoothness of surface, I may use a finishing cloth that can be sanded smooth. Epoxy resin should also help with additional strength.
If this works out, I may use the process in areas like recesses for access panels, an aero bubble for exhaust tube clearance and any area of the body I may have trouble shaping correctly.
John
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Interesting and innovative use of 3D printing; it (the printer) must be a monster!
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If you need any of the body work stuff, English wheel planishing hammer hand hammers and so on your welcome. have finished my buck today so I will be starting on my sit on Vincent tomorrow, drop by. cheers, BTW the little car looks good. max
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Hi Max. I am at your disposal. I will contact you this week.
John
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Interesting and innovative use of 3D printing; it (the printer) must be a monster!
Not small, not big. The nose was printed in six small sections and on one palate. They broke off like puzzle pieces, then glued together with super glue.
John
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The "buck" is now complete and ready for styrene or ABS cover. This body is more than 95% straight lines front to back and vertical features are gentle arcs so covering in sheet should be easy enough. Once done, the first 60 degree day we get out here, fiberglass layup begins.
John
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hmmmm that maybe a bad perpective!!
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Expand, Sparky.
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Pictures not rightside up. :-D :-D
Ron
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Pictures not rightside up. :-D :-D
Ron
Ron/Sparky:
Not sure if this works on desktop computers but when I open these images in my iPad, they are in correct orientation. Depending on the device used, you may have to open the image file in another window.
John
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I was kind of wondering how you'd managed to defeat gravity. Aren't computers great :? :? :?
Pete
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Aren't computers great :? :? :?
Pete
Love 'em and hate 'em, Pete.
John
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John,
Looking at your last picture (they turn right side up in my computer when I open them) is that last bulk head that the , I assume the chute tube, comes through the final shape for the back of your car?
Rex
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Rex:
Yes, the last aft bulkhead defines the back of the body and that hole through the back of it is the chute tube. Exhaust will also exit just above the chute tube. Somewhere in there, a push bar will locate. I just need to keep it away from sheets and ropes when they deploy.
John
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Originally on the MacKichan-Shultz #136 liner the exhaust and chute tubes were in close proximity through a bulkhead. There was enough vacuum turbulance at speed behind the bulkhead that was burning the chute lines. Problem was solved by a fairly small diverter plate to point the exhaust in the right direction.
Not trying to tell you how, just hoping to help you avoid future problems.
Ron
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I opened them using the link below the pictures and that put a whole new look on things. When they come out right side up and larger they look great. Nice work John. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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John,
You know as well as I do that having the back cut off like that is nothing but drag, looks like you may be suffering from the "not deep enough garage" syndrome. I have seen it happen alot when some one gets the car all laid out and if they make the rear body to be long and aero it will not fit in the garage! So they chop it off or make it at such an angle that the air could not possibly follow the body shape. I have even seen it happen because the trailer was not long enough. The Specter streamliner was originally owned by Jr. Kurtz and it had a cut off rear end because the trailer wasn't long enough, it went 310 mph max, Specter bought it and added a real tail to the car and with possibly an additional 2-300 hp went over 410but they didn't care if the trailer was to short. The back of the car is where the speed is.
Rex
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Yep! That's the same reason the nose & tail come off my liner, so I can close the shed door.
Sid.
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At his mom's garage where it was built, Al had to take off the nose, tail piece, rear body support framework with chute tubes and left rear wheel to get the door closed and walk past it.
Ron
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Ron,
Al did not compromise. He was one of those salt racers that was a great motor man and also a good aero guy which equals FAST!
Rex
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Rex et al:
I am indeed challenged by space and yes, I have just .125" between that rear bulkhead and my garage door. A continuation of the tail is planned but probably not before the car is sorted. I should mention that once the body is built, that rear bulkhead is removed and replaced with a tube structure leaving air in for induction, a place to escape. I remember a number of Trans Am cars decades ago, wrestling with this same problem; what to do about the back of the car? I think they may have been a rule governing overall length and no room to treat this part of the car properly. Through wind tunnel testing, they found that chopping the back off flush was the best compromise. For now, this and maybe a couple rows of vortex generators will have to do.
On the subject of space; I am so restricted, even my trailer length is way too short. I made the car in two pieces so I can transport it on a short trailer. Some assembly will be nessisary but batteries will be included.
John
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Originally on the MacKichan-Shultz #136 liner the exhaust and chute tubes were in close proximity through a bulkhead. There was enough vacuum turbulance at speed behind the bulkhead that was burning the chute lines. Problem was solved by a fairly small diverter plate to point the exhaust in the right direction.
Not trying to tell you how, just hoping to help you avoid future problems.
Ron
Hi Ron:
Yup, that exhaust could be a real problem and thank you for the diverter idea. Due to tight packaging, my chute tether loop is very close to the cylinder head. I managed a little air space and some flexible heat shield to keep from cooking that loop. All part of sorting the car but suggestions from the group are welcome to eliminate as many potential problems as possible.
John
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ABS sheets in place. Almost ready to lay up fiberglass.
John
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Terry Mourer just finished my lakester front wheels. Beautiful works of art. They are made to fit 18X4.4X10 aircraft tires and are two piece with a large "O" ring in the middle, machined to fit spindle mount axles and a machined moon disc covering everything. It goes without saying, Terry will be making my rear wheels too.
John
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Wow! Sexy wheels. More pics plz :cheers:
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I'm coming for a visit in a week...
Love the body, the wheels....
When's that wiring guy showing up :roll:
Dyno ready when you are
:cheers:
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I'm coming for a visit in a week...
Love the body, the wheels....
When's that wiring guy showing up :roll:
Dyno ready when you are
:cheers:
Stainless, wheels are still in Indiana but I will be driving there to pick them up on the 24th of this month. This gives opportunity to drop off rear hubs so Terry can match them up and make sure everything fits.
Dave will come as soon as I can get the car far enough along to make an accurate wiring diagram. I still have a ways to go not withstanding completion of the body.
As soon as I get the wheels back to Wichita, I will post more detailed photos.
Anyone requiring custom made aluminum LSR wheels, Terry is your guy, period. Super easy to work with and only deals in quality, precision and perfection.
John
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Looking good. Hope to see it when I come to work on the Bockscar. :cheers:
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Any time, John.
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TM "Super easy to work with----"
Yeah, I suspect he's like a lot of us, if he gets PO, first can't remember why, then he forgets that he was---next step "What's POed ----maybe that why they call them the "Golden Years"---- but he sure knows how to do sexy wheels!!!!!!!
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John,
Really like the looks of your body plug, great thinking on using the ABS sheets, it is really going to look good. Your front wheels are very neat but why so wide? Many cars (think Sparky) are going with the narrow Goodyear 22.5x17 top fuel fronts that are 300 mph approved by SCTA. Over 80% of the drag on a lakester are the wheels and tires so going with the narrowest makes sense. The top fuel tires are only 3.2 inches in section and if you trim the shoulders a little they are actually pretty aero. Do the tires you are using have a great cross section shape which can certainly reduce the Cd and make up for the extra width. With so much of the drag of a lakester being caused by the tires it is extra important to make them as aero as possible.
Another note John is Simon McBeath, who does the aero analysis for Racecar Engineering magazine, has just completed a three issue wind tunnel testing of a 1992 Swift SC92F formula Ford car that he uses for hill climbing. ( As you know a formula Ford is just a lakester that can go around corners!)The main target of the test was drag reduction which he was able to reduce by about 13% in the wind tunnel. One point that I found really interesting was that the final Cd (area) was .433 and this was a car with fat, wide tires, without any wheel covers and also the uprights and brakes hanging out in the wind. From his testing I would think that with proper attention to the wheels and tires and some detailed attention to getting the axles and suspension parts covered with aero appendages a lakester could easily have a Cd in the .25 to .3 area which with a frontal area of say 7 square feet would require about 115 hp for 200 mph for a Cd of .3 and 96 hp for a Cd of .25. As these are the numbers I happen to be targeting for the Schimmer and Son lakester, hopefully we may able to find out next August!
Rex
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Rex:
I think you have been reading my pre build notes (lol). We both have heavy road racing backgrounds so much of what I base my car design around, comes from Formula cars.
Originally, I had planned to use those dragster skinnies just like I did on my first car. I switched to the 18X4.4X10 aircraft tire after a short discussion with Stainless. Rob has far more experience with tire and wheel combinations on Bockscar so when he compared the two tire/wheel combinations, I listened. These 18" aircraft tire's need to be shaved so I believe there will be an aero improvement over stock. I have already begun my whining campaign to enlist help from Stainless to shave two tires. It is kind of an ugly, time consuming mess so I may have to ratchet up my whining intensity.
I am very interested in the McBeath three part study completed on a 1992 Swift FF. From what I remember of my FF and FC days, a good Cd for that vintage car was in the .40-.45 range so it would be hard to make too much improvement. As you may already know, I began my Lakester project with a 1984 Reynard FC chassis. Rear rocker suspension is stock and quite aero. When I talk with Maurer this month, we will be discussing how to hide as much of the rear uprights as possible. The upper rocker has a rounded leading edge but does not taper. Half shafts will be the big issue from an aero standpoint. When first putting pen to paper, I was assuming a .40 Cd, 7.2 sq. ft. frontal area. As it turned out, I will have a 7.4 sq. ft. FA, should stay under 2000 pounds and hope my Cd is .40 or better. Woody may be doing some initial CFD work for me to establish a few baselines. From there, decisions can be made as to what changes will yield best bang for the buck.
Your car will see the salt before I do. I will be trying hard to make the September USFRA meet.
John
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Rex:
From what Woody has sent me as example of his analysis capabilities, he used a basic drop tank lakester. That car developed a .25 Cd so I think your car should be very close. The only thing that nags at me is why drop tank lakesters don't go faster than they do? They have the horsepower but as a class of vehicle design, don't seem to make speed that non drop tanks do. Curious.
John
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John,
Rex's theory on why "tank" lakesters aren't as fast as the appear they should be: 1) I feel that most of them are ran way to low to the ground. If the belly of the tank is very close to the ground and I have seen many that are at the 1 inch or lower area, then the air that is trying to stay attached and go under the tank becomes very high in velocity and is turbulent and becomes unattached when its boundary layer collides with the non-moving ground plane which then makes pretty much the lower rear half of the body look like a bluff body to the air, i.e. high pressure drag. If the tank happens to be a P-38 300 gallon tank or replica there of then just because of the large diameter it is very difficult to get any kind of major ground clearance. 2)Many (most) of the tank lakesters are really trying to look like the original tanks which means exposed radius rods and mounts, exposed axles, springs and shocks, exposed steering rods and little or no effort to add any type of "aero patch" that would lower the paradisaical drag of these elements. 3) Many of these cars are sit up style which have various types of roll cage exposed to the air stream which is a lot of extra drag. McBeath saw a reduction of 2.4 % drag using a simple fairing made from duct tape and foam.
John, I did not know that the tire you are using is the same as the ones that Stainless is using on the Boxcar, that means the 18 on the size call out is the overall diameter and the 4.4 is the width which means that the frontal area is only about 10% greater than the new Goodyear top fuel front but with your trick wheels it should really be effective.
Rex
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Rex:
I read all three 1992 Swift aero articles by Mc Beath and found them interesting and in concert with other studies done on similar cars. Of particular interest were fairings fore and aft of suspension attachment points. Before reading the article, I was wondering how I might deal with this for my rear suspension. Simon gave me the answer. Not a big change in drag but big and simple enough to incorporate on my car. Another area of interest was air flow impingement from front wheel to rear. Stainless showed me Bockscar moon discs and asked what I saw. Not being the brightest bulb in the room, I gave no answer. He showed me where salt from front wheel wakes were hitting the moon discs at rear. Never gave this much thought until Mc Beath dealt with it. Up to now, I was always trying to deal with tire wakes impinging upon the body. Really good stuff, Rex and thank you for pointing this out.
Oh, BTW, my front tires are identical to those on Bockscar.
John
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TM "Super easy to work with----"
but he sure knows how to do sexy wheels!!!!!!!
That is a fact, Sparky.
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TM "Super easy to work with----"
but he sure knows how to do sexy wheels!!!!!!!
That is a fact, Sparky.
I saw Sparky's wheels when I was at Podunk's shop a few years back - I think even before Sparky saw them. When the chips were done flying, the end results were masterpieces.
Of course, SOME of those chips I found in an engine block he left too close to the lathe - but even Rembrandt spilled a little paint from time to time . . . :wink:
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MM,
Hope you got um all out before you fired that muther up.
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Building a mold-less body with ABS is something new to us so a few unexpected problems were expected. Everything was going well until I sprayed two coats of EVA mold release. First coat was a light tack and the second much heavier. Prior to using EVA, I asked the supplier if it would react negatively with ABS. He said no problem (where have you heard that before?) so we proceeded. Well, EVA does react mildly to ABS in that it softens and swells it some. After just two coats, large distortions began forming and those of us involved in this project were noticeably bummed. Now what do we do? After a period of discussion, we decided to be good Boy Scouts and do nothing until the next day. It was a cool night, around 40 degrees, and I hoped that would help shrink these distortions out of the ABS. Cool air or just more drying time, all distortions were gone by morning and our positive countenance returned.
I post this in case others try this method. I must say that when observing these distortions, we darn near tore everything apart. A little patience went a long, long way and returned the project to normal. Tomorrow we are supposed to experience 70 degrees and a good day to lay up fiberglass. Now, I hope epoxy resin plays nice with an EVA coated ABS.
John
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John, this just confirms my mantra that everything has consequences! :-o :-D
We are all itching with anticipation for your fiberglass lay up! :cheers:
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John, I have never used EVA but PVA, or polyvinyl alcohol, works well. I have had good luck using aluminum foil over foam to get a smoother surface and a clean release. Your build is looking really nice. I hope we have good salt this year for racing :cheers:
http://www.fibreglast.com/product/PVA_Release_Film_13/Mold_Releases
Johnboy
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Woody:
Hah! We will literally be itching to get this glass work done.
Johnboy:
Thank you for the kind comments. Building this body has been an adventure into the unknown. So far, so good but we ain't done yet. BTW, fiberglass materials have gotten expensive!.
John
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Sometimes it helps to make something goofy, like a flower pot,to see how the system works before you try something important.
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We used PLA printed molds on our fairings between the wheel pants and wing and fuselage and wing.
We covered them with PVA then two layers of 7781 glass w epoxy resin at 45° to each other.
We then popped them off the PLA, rinsed the any residue of PLA off the inside, scuffed up inside and layed up a couple of more layers of 7781 for strength.
We also kept the stiffening layers away from the edges a bit so that the glass was very thin where it attached to the wing making body work a breeze.
We also had to super glue our PLA pieces together as our printer was 12 x 12 x 5.
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We used PLA printed molds on our fairings between the wheel pants and wing and fuselage and wing.
We covered them with PVA then two layers of 7781 glass w epoxy resin at 45° to each other.
We then popped them off the PLA, rinsed the any residue of PLA off the inside, scuffed up inside and layed up a couple of more layers of 7781 for strength.
We also kept the stiffening layers away from the edges a bit so that the glass was very thin where it attached to the wing making body work a breeze.
We also had to super glue our PLA pieces together as our printer was 12 x 12 x 5.
We took a similar approach with our nose. The printer available to us mandated doing it in six sections, then super glue them together. We are using three laminations of Hexcel 7500 for strength and 7781 for finish. I had planned on using 120 for finishing but my supplier had a near full roll of 7781 he wanted to get rid of at a knock down price. A little heavier than 120 but at $2 per yard, I could not pass on that.
I like how you oriented laminations at 45 degrees. Very strong structure that way and we my very well do the same. This is my first experience at fiberglass so keep your fingers crossed.
John
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looks and sounds way more than beginners luck to me-- this little baby is going to be sexy
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I sure hope it all turns out right, Sparky. We managed to get one layup done today but ambient wasn't quite as warm as forecast. Much of the day was 55 degrees. 4:1 mix for epoxy and hardener was spec but not enough for 55 degree air. It did give more time to saturate mat and squeegee out excess resin, however.
It was decided to let this layer harden before moving on. After three layers is completed, we will mix a batch of microspheres, fill small cavities, then sand. The final layup will be a finishing layer. Lots more work to be done but not sure I will get this warm weather for very much longer.
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Well, the first layup was completed on Monday and awaiting the slow cure time for epoxy resin. Next layup will be on the next 70+ day we get. Attached is a new 3D rendering of what the car will look like. Those with sharp eyes can see the exhaust bubble is backward. That will be fixed soon.
John
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John, If the 3D rendering is accurate there may be a forward visibility issue.
At least that's what I see when making a strait line from where I think the eye port of the helmet would be in relation to the front cowling.
Hope I'm wrong.
Love the name "Kansas Twister" :cheers:
Don
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Making the fin taller and extended more to the rear may help your high-speed stability, John.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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We had some glass that would not quite cure. Months later we put it outside and let some summer heat and UV work on it after 3 days it no longer "seemed" green
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John, If the 3D rendering is accurate there may be a forward visibility issue.
At least that's what I see when making a strait line from where I think the eye port of the helmet would be in relation to the front cowling.
Hope I'm wrong.
Love the name "Kansas Twister" :cheers:
Don
You guys really do have sharp eyes (lol). Don, visibility may be a problem as is. I jumped in the car early on in the build process and thought the same thing. If this proves true, we will extend the polycarbonate forward until we get it right.
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Making the fin taller and extended more to the rear may help your high-speed stability, John.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Neil, I almost left the tail fin off given experience with my first car. There is quite a bit of flat from roll cage back and I spent quite a bit of time getting my Cg as low and far forward as possible so I didn't think I needed the fin for additional Cp. But I reckoned it wouldn't hurt having one even for a little extra insurance and the car is, after all, an LSR so why not?
John
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We had some glass that would not quite cure. Months later we put it outside and let some summer heat and UV work on it after 3 days it no longer "seemed" green
That is good to hear, Sparky. I tried to be as careful as possible when weighing resin and hardener but some batches were a little over the 4:1 ratio. Oddly, the first batch was way over on hardner and it cured just fine. That is not supposed to happen with epoxy.
We get some brutally hot 105 days out here so I should have good opportunity to bake the glass.
John
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John said: "... we will extend the polycarbonate forward until we get it right."
SawZall to the rescue!!!! :-D :-D
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Good forward vision is way over rated, there is not a lot to look at 200 feet in front of the car... everything you need to see is a 1/4 mile away and coming at you fast! :-o
Car is looking good John, I will drop by soon :cheers:
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" good forward vision is overrated", shoot i keep my eyes closed during most of my passes. Stainless says i need to work on my tuck. i built the motor on the bike, a potential steaming pile of shrapnel, i am usually in a flinch which kinda looks like a tuck only longer i don't care that my eyelids are only a 12th of an inch thick, they have to slow something, anything down.
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Yesterday, my crew was really motivated and put down three additional structural layups making a total of four. All the way through this process, I had my doubts. I wasn't sure .030" ABS sheet would be enough to hold form unsupported. I wasn't sure if chemicals used would react negatively with ABS. I wasn't sure at all that we knew what we were doing but as the old saying goes; in for a penny, in for a pound, so we soldiered on. The end result, after four layers of 7500 Hexcel 9 mil mat and Axon epoxy resin/hardener, we have a very strong and straight shell with only a hint of where we overlapped seams. I am completely satisfied with the result and after a week or two, will begin sanding and filling low spots and irregularities. With a little more luck, we should have a body for the Lakester before winter ends.
Ross, all those nasty looking seams you asked about all but disappeared after the last layup. Kind of surprised me too.
John
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" shoot i keep my eyes closed during most of my passes. Stainless says i need to work on my tuck. i built the motor on the bike, a potential steaming pile of shrapnel, i am usually in a flinch which kinda looks like a tuck only longer i don't care that my eyelids are only a 12th of an inch thick, they have to slow something, anything down."
Geez, that sounds familiar. :roll:
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I am at the filling/sanding stage and surprised how smooth overlapped seams now appear. There are four layers of 9 mil 7500 Hexcel mat (five layers when talking about overlapped seams) and glad we went with the extra lamination. Sanding takes one layer down to the next for high spots but yields a very uniformly smooth surface (see image). I did find a number of depressions where glass cured with distortions. Before asking the forum what products they used to fill with, I went ahead and tried Bondo Glass to fill these low spots. This is very nice, fiber reinforced filler putty made to be used on fiberglass (metal too). Once this product is consumed, I will switch to Everlast products. Everlast has a similar product to Bondo Glass but can be had in larger cans. Everlast was recommended by a fellow forum member and has a wide range of professional grade fillers and putties.
John
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The Bondo Glass and others like it are to add extra strenght. If the panel is not weak or thin, regular filler will work fine and is about 500% easier to work and get to the finish you need.
Ron
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The Bondo Glass and others like it are to add extra strenght. If the panel is not weak or thin, regular filler will work fine and is about 500% easier to work and get to the finish you need.
Ron
Ron, the body shell is super strong. I just wasn't sure at the time if regular Bondo was up to the task of filling low spots of up to 1/4" without cracking or crumbling. Enough of you who have had successful experience with regular Bondo over fiberglass has convinced me to use it as a skim coat to smooth out small surface irregularities. I plan to wrap the body instead of paint so normal surface prep reserved for paint will not be needed.
John
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Every imperfection in the body will show thru the wrap.
That's from the experience of 4 wraps on Target 550 streamilner.
FREUD
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Hi FREUD:
Yes, and that is why I am trying my best to make the body as feature perfect as possible. I guess I will have to ask the wrap guy how he wants the surface finish to be. There is still one more lamination of 120 Hexcel mat to go down after imperfections are taken care of. It is a finishing mat but heavier than normal (9 mil). After that lam, more sanding.
Did Target 550 streamliner have any trouble with wrap coming loose at speed? I can only imagine what would happen if any high speed air crept under the wrap.
John
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If the panel doesn't flex much, I wouldn't worry about 1/4", especially if you are putting on another layer of fabric.
Ron
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Ron, you are probably correct about Bondo supported by the last lamination of glass. I will let you know in a few weeks.
John
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John, that 3D rendering looks quite nice. With that tiny vertical stabilizer, your excellent side vision might be more important than the forward view. Hope to see you out there this year.
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Hey Dick K:
I will be relying on improved weight distribution, a low/forward Cg and all that vertical flat panel at back for stabilization. The small stabilizer is there mainly to put class designation. The great white dyno will quickly tell me if this combination works or not.
John
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John,
Sorry. I just couldn't resist the opportunity to apply the needle. Actually, a tall tail fin would just impart a roll moment, which you really don't need in yaw. Do you have a snow plow for that thing? Nasty weather this week - I need a wind breaker on my bike today.
When you get to light that motor up can you post a video on YouTube? :dhorse:
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I need a wind breaker on my bike today.
When you get to light that motor up can you post a video on YouTube? :dhorse:
Your killing me, Dick! 28 degrees out here for the past two days with no letup in site for a week. And yes, I will post a video for startup of the engine. Lots to do before then but should be close in a couple of months.
John
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As I close in on completion of my 2 liter lakester, I began looking downrange two or three years for other engine/transaxle combinations that would fit my car. Coincidentally, there is an F-class engine and gearbox available from an ill-fated streamliner project. The engine is a 1000 hp, turbocharged Toyota Supra mated to a Lola Indycar transaxle (Hewland DGB internals). Anyone want to guess what the speed potential would be with this drivetrain in my lakester?
John
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I know, I know but I'm not tellin'! :x :x
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Screw the potential speed -- put it in and take it to Bville so we can enjoy the purty engine. Eye candy is always good. :-D
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Like SSS said. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I too am an engine guy but in the final analysis, these things are just tools to a given end. As nice as they look, the bloody things have to perform or they might as well be wall hangers.
John
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How much real doubt about if the one in the pictures will perform :? :? :?
Ron
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John said: " Anyone want to guess what the speed potential would be with this drivetrain in my lakester?" Probably fast enough to cut into your shorts supply!
Funny how the car isn't even done and we are already looking at the next bullet! Doing the same thing with my I/fuel lakester!
Rex
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John, better add a second chute if you are thinking about that engine....
that is my guess about potential :cheers:
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... a 1000 hp, turbocharged Toyota Supra...
... Anyone want to guess what the speed potential would be with this drivetrain in my lakester?...
I don't see any forced induction system. Has it actually been run with turbo's?
SCTA record for F/BFL is about 263 MPH, if that's any help. Seems to me if a person could put 1,000 HP to the ground with an F lakester the record would be over 263. :?
It's somewhat ironic that while many builders contemplate "faster" via more engine, I'm personally thinking about 'slower' (smaller engine)... perhaps less stressful initial fire-up and dyno session. 8-)
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... a 1000 hp, turbocharged Toyota Supra...
... Anyone want to guess what the speed potential would be with this drivetrain in my lakester?...
I don't see any forced induction system. Has it actually been run with turbo's?
SCTA record for F/BFL is about 263 MPH, if that's any help. Seems to me if a person could put 1,000 HP to the ground with an F lakester the record would be over 263. :?
It's somewhat ironic that while many builders contemplate "faster" via more engine, I'm personally thinking about 'slower' (smaller engine)... perhaps less stressful initial fire-up and dyno session. 8-)
If you can get the power to the ground, if the car keeps pointing down the track, if it doesn't break anything I reckon it's in the two chute range but gee there's a lot of maybes in going that fast.I watched a few people have a reality check at the salt here this year. 1000hp will break more things than traction. Better aero, same power more speed, just like that...
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... a 1000 hp, turbocharged Toyota Supra...
... Anyone want to guess what the speed potential would be with this drivetrain in my lakester?...
I don't see any forced induction system. Has it actually been run with turbo's?
SCTA record for F/BFL is about 263 MPH, if that's any help. Seems to me if a person could put 1,000 HP to the ground with an F lakester the record would be over 263. :?
It's somewhat ironic that while many builders contemplate "faster" via more engine, I'm personally thinking about 'slower' (smaller engine)... perhaps less stressful initial fire-up and dyno session. 8-)
Jack:
The engine does use a turbo but has not been started yet. It was waiting for the liner to be built and at some point, far enough along to justify completion. So, how do I know it will produce 1000 hp? These engines have a history of that much power and more. 1000 hp is about middle of the road.
I agree with you that often less is more but when it comes to horsepower, I will always take more. You can always take a little out if you have trouble planting the car.
John
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... a 1000 hp, turbocharged Toyota Supra...
... Anyone want to guess what the speed potential would be with this drivetrain in my lakester?...
I don't see any forced induction system. Has it actually been run with turbo's?
SCTA record for F/BFL is about 263 MPH, if that's any help. Seems to me if a person could put 1,000 HP to the ground with an F lakester the record would be over 263. :?
It's somewhat ironic that while many builders contemplate "faster" via more engine, I'm personally thinking about 'slower' (smaller engine)... perhaps less stressful initial fire-up and dyno session. 8-)
If you can get the power to the ground, if the car keeps pointing down the track, if it doesn't break anything I reckon it's in the two chute range but gee there's a lot of maybes in going that fast.I watched a few people have a reality check at the salt here this year. 1000hp will break more things than traction. Better aero, same power more speed, just like that...
Star Spangled Banger was a Lakester based on an older Indy car. It used a turbo Offy and those were notorious beasts on drivetrain bits. But that car had a lot going for it. It was a proven setup for that speed so I am sure the crew concentrated on handling and grip, all the things a solid road racing team would do. If/when the time comes, I hope we are as successful in F-class. But for now, everything is aimed at G/GL and G/FL.
John
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The "Star Spangled Banger" FBF/l was (is) owned by Bill Manley from Santa Rosa and was originally built by Dick Russel a noted fabricator that worked for Parnelli Jones in So. Cal. It was made from "spare" Indy car parts and sported a 159 cu. in turboOffy that made about 1000+hps. It used a Weisman tranny and that was its limitation because they could not find a ring and pinion that would allow them to go much faster than their record or 262 mph although they had plenty of power they didn't want to over rev the Offy. Bill had been going to Bonneville for years and even though he had some pretty stout equipment he never set a record, which is something he really wanted to do. He put his son, Brian, who had never been to the salt, in the lakester, he got his licencees and then set the record at 262 mph and his comment was "What is so hard about this"!!!! They say his dad almost hit him!
As I understand the Star Spangled Banger may be for sale and they have found some gears for the Weisman that will allow it to go over 300 so it mite be some competition for you John.
Rex
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The "Star Spangled Banger" FBF/l was (is) owned by Bill Manley from Santa Rosa and was originally built by Dick Russel a noted fabricator that worked for Parnelli Jones in So. Cal. It was made from "spare" Indy car parts and sported a 159 cu. in turboOffy that made about 1000+hps. It used a Weisman tranny and that was its limitation because they could not find a ring and pinion that would allow them to go much faster than their record or 262 mph although they had plenty of power they didn't want to over rev the Offy. Bill had been going to Bonneville for years and even though he had some pretty stout equipment he never set a record, which is something he really wanted to do. He put his son, Brian, who had never been to the salt, in the lakester, he got his licencees and then set the record at 262 mph and his comment was "What is so hard about this"!!!! They say his dad almost hit him!
As I understand the Star Spangled Banger may be for sale and they have found some gears for the Weisman that will allow it to go over 300 so it mite be some competition for you John.
Rex
Rex, I would be curious about gears for a Weisman transaxle too...
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IIRC, If that is the same transaxle Al used, it is based on a 12 bolt GM R&P. I think Al got a set or two of the 2.13/14 R&P that Lingenfelter (sp) had made.
Ron
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"I understand the Star Spangled Banger may be for sale and they have found some gears for the Weisman that will allow it to go over 300 so it mite be some competition for you John.
Rex"
Rex, I would welcome the competition.
John
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Dyno room, try contacting Can-Am Racing in St. Louis, MO. They have just about everything in spades for old and new Indy cars.
John
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The website is www.canamcarsltd.com/ . He has huge stock, lots of cars you'd likely recognize, and is a really good guy to deal with.
Pete
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OK, I have exhausted every known fastener I think will work to secure my fiberglass body but am not happy with any of them except the Camlock 4002 series 1/4 turn with a Plus-Flush grommet. Only problem with Camlock is the $15 or so price tag each. Dzus fasteners are economical but will eventually auger out the glass hole so I am not over joyed about using them. So, what are you guys using for a reliable fitting on fiberglass that does not break the bank?
John
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John;
Try these self-ejecting Dzus fasteners:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Self-Ejecting-Quarter-Turn-Fasteners-500-Inch-Grip-Pack-10,1573.html
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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http://autofab.com/c-335610-fabrication-goodies-dzus-fasteners.html
https://www.amazon.com/iJDMTOY-Finish-Release-Fasteners-Bumpers/dp/B00JJYPATO
Have you seen these?
Johnboy
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Neil/Johnboy:
Yes, I have seen an even used some of them before. The self ejecting Dzus are good but I would like to avoid using a riveted aluminum plate on top of the glass. What do you think about a doubler plate on the back side? There are some super strong adhesives that will avoid using rivets. To make the tapered Dzus flush, I would have to ream a taper in the fiberglass. Does this sound like a weak idea?
John
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A very fast liner was that way from 1976 on till retirement.
You could glue on the ss tapered washers, called a half grommet, takes a little bigger recess to keep the Dzus level.
Ron
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John;
Try these self-ejecting Dzus fasteners:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Self-Ejecting-Quarter-Turn-Fasteners-500-Inch-Grip-Pack-10,1573.html
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Neil, it is looking more and more like Dzus with reinforcing and backing plates is what I will use. Not many more affordable alternatives. I will just have to live with the less than desirable aero.
John
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A very fast liner was that way from 1976 on till retirement.
You could glue on the ss tapered washers, called a half grommet, takes a little bigger recess to keep the Dzus level.
Ron
Ron, these are EXACTLY what I was looking for. You are a life saver, my friend.
John
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It has been a long road completing the lakester body shell but the last two finishing laminations were put down last night. Some sanding will take place to remove seams, overlaps and runs but this will be minimal. Can't wait to pull the shell and begin working on the car again. Just five months till WoS so no time to waste.
John
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Good luck on the glass work. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Good luck on the glass work. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I could have used a fiberglass pro like you out here, tauruck. First time doing this sort of thing. We made it strong, now we have to make it pretty.
John
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John, now I understand how you determined the length for your lakester body. The distance from the overhead door to the back wall.
As an old Indy 500 fan, it reminds me of George Salih's comments on why he built the Indy-winning Belond AP Special "laydown" Offy roadster. It won in 1957 (Sam Hanks) and 1958 (Jimmy Bryan). He said the nose had to fit under his work bench in the garage. I hope your car has the same success.
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Dick, you reckoned correctly. The nose protrudes into the lower shelf of the storage rack and 1/8" clearance at the garage door. I had to make he chassis in two parts for roughly the same space reason as well as transporting the car on a short 8', double deck trailer. Space in my garage is at such a premium that I had to build the body over the complete car underneath. I envy guys with real shop space.
John
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Well, today was the day to pull body off chassis and wouldn't you know, it rained. Fitting because after trying out a couple of primers, it looked like a beached whale. The task is done and now I can get back to working on the car. Just five months and counting.
John
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Steering finally done. Very responsive with little to no compliance. Stainless, it was a good recommendation you gave me to use a telescoping steering shaft to manage any movement in bump. Works like a charm.
John
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GM parts?
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It looks good John. You did a nice job and by what I see that fairing paste worked well.
Keep at it. You'll make it. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Mike.
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GM parts?
Yes. From an older Camero, I think.
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It looks good John. You did a nice job and by what I see that fairing paste worked well.
Keep at it. You'll make it. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Mike.
Thank you, Mike. I have new found respect for those who work in fiberglass.
John
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Steering rack attached to sprung axle?
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Steering rack attached to sprung axle?
Yes.
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John, we fought bump steer after the original build... The body would change position as speed increased, Johnboy reported he could see more front tire the faster he went.... then figured out the rack on the axle would eliminate changes in toe and bump.... that was fixed in about 86 or 87. We found the old collapsible Camaro parts were easy to find in junkyards. I think you can buy D and double D male and female parts on Ebay to make your own.
Looks like you are making progress :cheers:
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Hi Stainless:
Yes, I found a brand new collapsible steering shaft for a Camero on eBay. I think these were used for steering wheel adjustment but it works perfectly on the lakester to accommodate any fore/aft movement created by trailing arm arcs in bump and axle tilt. If you would like to see toe change in bump, take a look at a Formula Vee. It radically goes positive to negative and back again under braking and cornering. Scared the heck out of me the first time I saw it from the cockpit.
Progress is definitely being made. I will send in WoS entry fee next month and hope you have not raised the G class NA bar too high at SpeedWeek. With a little luck, I should have the car ready for dyno testing and corner weight scaling by late June or July. My biggest problem to date is renting a tow rig (I will take you up on use of a trailer) and very likely a push car as well.
John
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John,
Regarding a tow car, my friend, Steve Nelson, G/GL class, rented a nice new Ford pick up from Budget (I think) and it was $30/day and he told them it was going to Bonneville and they had no problem with that!
Rex
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John,
Regarding a tow car, my friend, Steve Nelson, G/GL class, rented a nice new Ford pick up from Budget (I think) and it was $30/day and he told them it was going to Bonneville and they had no problem with that!
Rex
Rex, did Steve say how much per mile Budget charged for the truck rental? Out here in Wichita, they want 72 per mile. Total less gas would set me back $2200.
John
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That's R28,000 in our money. Big bill even for you guys. :-D
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No worries John, running the 1 liter at SpeedWeek.... will swap the big motor in for our fun at WoS.
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No worries John, running the 1 liter at SpeedWeek.... will swap the big motor in for our fun at WoS.
Excellent!
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Stainless,
Is your 1000 cc motor going to be on some N02? The record in I/FL is high enough!!
Rex
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Stainless,
Is your 1000 cc motor going to be on some N02? The record in I/FL is high enough!!
Rex
No Rex, it's blown... we will leave the I/FL record alone until you break it... and we have welcomed you and your son to the club. 8-)
:cheers:
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Stainless,
You are all heart! Is you blown motor going to be gas or fuel? My son and I are thinking about putting a hair dryer on our "good" motor to run I/BF next year as that record is a little "softer" than your I/F record. With our constant flow injection and methanol we wouldn't need a charge cooler if we keep the boost below 12 psi so it could be a relatively easy mod, but as you so well know NOTHING is easy at the salt. You have so much experience with so many combinations and we are truly "babes in the woods" there.
John, sorry for pirating you build now back to your great G lakester build.
Rex
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"John, sorry for pirating you build now back to your great G lakester build."
Rex, not a problem at this end. Poor Stainless, he is being challenged in I and G class but lots of fun to be had by all.
John
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Poor Stainless?
I counted 9 Lakester records in the current Rule Book.
I guess he does (and has) known what he's doing.
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Stan... even a blind squirrel manages to find an acorn every now and then :roll:
To continue the hijack, I entered us in I/BFL at SpeedWeek, will enter in G/FL at WoS and will enter anything not in pieces at the Finals... :|
Back to your regularly scheduled G/FL thread....
John, looks like you are making great progress.... take more pictures :cheers:
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"I guess he does (and has) known what he's doing."
And therein lies my difficulty. Stainless most certainly does know what he is doing and I am just now trying to find out.
John
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I guess the hijack continues...
While I enjoy leading the Mountain States Automation Bockscar Team, we are a team! When I was a lot younger I was fortunate to "fall in with a bad crowd" and have continued to be teamed with some really smart folks for many years (read Ben Jordan, Johnboy, Martyn, Kevin, Corey, Barc and yes, Pork Pie).
Knowing and learning the failure points of mechanical things are far different beasts.... :cheers:
John knows we have tried to take his records on several occasions since 1997... managed to get one in 04, but destroyed a lot of hardware along the way.... there is no easy path in any of this....
although when folks ask about the 200 MPH Club, I usually tell them it is an easy club to join :roll:
All you have to do is set a record over 200 MPH or the club minimum in your class ....
That means you must go faster than anyone else has since 1953 :cheers:
Now can we concentrate on the task at hand... more pictures John... we need more pictures :cheers:
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Here's what I don't understand about the 2-Club . . . that first hat is so expensive, yet they almost give away any more after that.
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How expensive is a Dirty 2 hat?
Just curious. I'll never challenge.
FREUD
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"Now can we concentrate on the task at hand... more pictures John... we need more pictures."
OK, I will post a few more images this Saturday. Plan is to begin cutting the body shell and fit all panels to chassis. This sounds like such an easy task but I am dreadfully worried about not getting the cut lines right. Gotta do it sometime so Friday is the day. Measure twice (three times), cut once.
John
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John, measure with a laser, mark it with chalk and cut it with a sharp axe! :-D :-D
BTW: After cutting three times it will still be too short! :-o :-o
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John, measure with a laser, mark it with chalk and cut it with a sharp axe! :-D :-D
BTW: After cutting three times it will still be too short! :-o :-o
You know me too well, Woody.
John
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OK, this ain't Saturday but I found a little time to fab a critical bulkhead. There remained some doubt as to how tech would interpret the word "isolate" for fuel components so Stainless came over and suggested I build a formidable barrier between driver, fuel tank and fuel lines. After noodling out a few alternatives, Rob left giving me good information to work with. The rules say all fuel components must be isolated from the driver compartment. Isolation means to set apart or stand alone so I figured the two .125" thick 4130 bulkheads welded in the chassis was sufficient "isolation". Turns out what tech may want is something more akin to the firewall. Not fluid tight but close. I have attached a couple of images depicting my (and Stainless) solution to this problem. Keep in mind, the two panels on either side of the footbox are not installed yet but will be there when the car is complete. Also, Rob suggested I weld in two thick wall round tubes that fuel lines run through if for no other reason than to absolutely insure tech would love this. One more trip to The Yard for thick wall tubing.
John
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Looks good John.
Don't listen to Woody. He's just full of "air"!!!!! :-D :-D :-D :-D
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I have been debating for some time now which dampers to use. Koni double adjustable or Penske doubles. The Koni dampers need rebuilding and the Penske's are near new. But the budget is getting tighter so the Penske's get the nod. Full extension is a little longer on the Penske dampers so I will have to use droop limiters for sure. If I don't, the bottom pokes through my belly pan in full droop.
John
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Looks good John.
Don't listen to Woody. He's just full of "air"!!!!! :-D :-D :-D :-D
Mike, just remember that all forms of racing have only three airflow regimes: Inner, Outer & Hot! :-D :-D :-D
And certainly not in equal amounts! :-o :-o :-o :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Looks great John. Nice shocks.
Awesome build man. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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One of the scary moments is when you have to cut up the body shell you agonizingly built. Yesterday was such a day but with the skills of friend Glen Ediger, we got the job done. Here are two forward sections ready for mounting. Note that my bulkheads need a little adjusting to fit (lol).
John
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It's easier to remove metal than to add. Still looking good. Can't wait to see it on the salt in September. There will be salt in September, right?
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I sure hope so, Dick.
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I still have a bit more time left to fiddle with getting body seams perfect. Gaps are easy to get right but matching radii are not. If I can't make these areas better, I may have to follow a good friends advice and use duct tape over seams I cannot make perfect.
John
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In the picture, the joint on the right, at the top, is not quite right. With the Dzus's buttoned up (they can change the profile) use a ruler or metal strip to see whether the front of the joint is low or the rear is high. If the front needs built up, if not with cloth, I would use Kitty Hair or similar, fiber re-inforced filler, instead of just filler. If the rear needs to come down to get it to match, you may need to add material to the underside to maintain body thickness and strength. Do your sanding with all Dzus's in place so the profiles are right. You will scuff some Dzus's but if they are all the same length, you can transfer the scuffed ones to where you are working at the time so you don't scuff too many.
Good luck
Ron
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Ron:
Thank you for help getting these seams straight. I went back out and juggled shims until I obtained a balance between the two parts in question (see image). It would have been better to have these two Dzus fasteners directly across from one another but my clamp must have slipped while drilling. Even when these Dzus plates are in properly, getting them the correct distance from the body is something of a crap shoot. Can't begin to tell you how many times I measured these thinking they were perfect only to find one is a few thousandths high or low. Shimming has been the answer to get the right balance. All this aside, one pass down the track and everything changes.
John
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In the picture, the joint on the right, at the top, is not quite right. With the Dzus's buttoned up (they can change the profile) use a ruler or metal strip to see whether the front of the joint is low or the rear is high. If the front needs built up, if not with cloth, I would use Kitty Hair or similar, fiber re-inforced filler, instead of just filler. If the rear needs to come down to get it to match, you may need to add material to the underside to maintain body thickness and strength. Do your sanding with all Dzus's in place so the profiles are right. You will scuff some Dzus's but if they are all the same length, you can transfer the scuffed ones to where you are working at the time so you don't scuff too many.
Good luck
Ron
Tough crowd!
My friend photographer Simon davidson told me a young guy was looking at our tank at the lake one year ....
" is this a real one?"....
"Yeah" said Simon, "Of course it's a real one"
"Like from back in the day? How old is it?"
"Well, I think it's less than ten years old"
"Huh?" said the kid, who obviously thought it was from the fifties or something
"How come it looks so f#%$^$&"... :-D :-D :-D :-D
It's not just "the first run down the track" for us, there's the hundred miles of terrible road into the lake, it's beats the hail out of everything...
yours is looking good btw. :wink:
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Finally found the right tool to countersink my Dzus fasteners flush. It is a simple spot facer. The Dzus fasteners I am using were originally found on old war bird aircraft. These are some very nice fasteners but do require an aluminum grommet and special tool to swedge them in place. But these flush mount fasteners do not have a bevel under the head that fits in a dimpled panel. Rather, they are flat under the head so a spot facer works very well. Here is what the tool looks like (like you guys don't know what a spot facer looks like) and the end result. Thank goodness for The Yard.
John
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I thought The Yard was gone?????
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Still in business but material choices are more limited. All their sheet aluminum is heat treated T6 or higher. Still a great place to go when you need metal. They have a second store about three blocks away for tools both new and reconditioned. That is where I got my spot facing tool.
John
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For the uninitiated... what is 'the Yard"?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Been several years since I've been there. Surplus nuts, bolts, fittings, clecos, tools, metal, etc. a lot of it aircraft or military surplus. You need a chunk of 6" thick aluminum, they got it, aluminum sheet discolored by water, they got it. Nuts and bolts, etc. were $3.00 a pound. I bought .5" ss Dzus buttons for $3.00 lb, 5/16 double action SS pit pins for $.25 each. You get the Idea.
Neil, sounds like some of the places you've shopped. :-D
Ron
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Ron:
Those were prime rib years for The Yard. Nothing like that now but still a very handy place for the kind of stuff we need.
John
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It sure does, Ron.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Here over the years first it was Cal Nelson Aviation followed by Lockheed salvage sales, Joe Factors and now Luky's hardware. Sure miss the lazy L salvage yard, everything from crates to end mills.
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Well, not the prettiest push bar but strong enough to take a serious hit if it should happen. Next year we will do pretty.
John
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Go John!!!.
All the best. :cheers: :cheers:
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Almost done fitting body sections to the chassis. Here are the forward three sections with one more to go (engine cover). For those with a keen eye, there are no fasteners at bottom...yet. These will be added when the belly pan is fitted. Completing the canopy is next up now that everything is secure in the driver compartment. Small steps.
Began building the canopy today. Need to form a lip around inside perimeter for flush mounting of the polycarbonate. In order to keep things simple, a piece of 3/4" thick structural plywood will be used at front to form the poly and act as a bulkhead for the canopy. Should add quite a bit of strength as well.
John
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More ideas taken from Stainless's Bockscar. These are simple, inexpensive, available and effective canopy latches. You can find them on eBay for around $5 each. Not too difficult to mount, either.
John
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John;
I think these are stainless steel latches made by Hartwell.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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You are correct, Neal. But Heatwell makes one that looks like these but has less open and close force. I would stay away from those. These are some really trick latches.
John
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Looking great John.
Will the canopy be 3D?.
:cheers:
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3D? You got me on that one, Mike.
John
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McMaster-Carr has hold tight latches we used to hold cleanout doors closed on duct work. never had one come open in use.
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BB, I looked at Grainger and M-C for latches and found several that would work but I really wanted flush mounts. I decided early on that I would make this car as slippery as possible given it is a lakester. So far, so good.
John
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Lakester = Brick
with a "right" foot you can be very fast with a brick :wink:
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:cheers: :cheers:
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Even a brick can be improved aerodynamically.
John
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Fortunately most lakesters are small bricks (small frontal area).
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And they are mostly pointy on both ends! :-o :cheers:
Those %%*#$% tires are another matter! :x :x
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The Goodyear motorcycle LSR tires were pretty low in frontal area. They were 19 x 3.50 inches, 27.2 inch O.D.
Could they still be available somewhere?
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Here they are on a "lakester" at Bonneville.
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Here is a link to the hydrogen peroxide-powered "Pollution Packer":
http://www.the-rocketman.com/RPV/packer.html
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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The Goodyear motorcycle LSR tires were pretty low in frontal area. They were 19 x 3.50 inches, 27.2 inch O.D.
Could they still be available somewhere?
Dick:
The "skinnies" are still used at Bonneville but are now 300 mph rated. These new tires are a little wider but still fit the old rims.
John
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And they are mostly pointy on both ends! :-o :cheers:
Those %%*#$% tires are another matter! :x :x
Not all of them, Woody.
John
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John,
Duke and i have a set of the new Goodyear TF front on our car and it looks to me like you could shave the shoulders a little bit to get a rounder profile. No time this year but we might try next year. I think some of the motorcycle GP tires would be pretty aero but you would need SCTA approval. Maybe next year also.
Rex
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Rex:
There has been some interesting work done on performance bicycle wheels and tires that may cross over to automotive. For years, bicycle racing rims and tires were very narrow. Lately, wind tunnel testing has revealed a wider tire and rim is better aerodynamically. Bicycle time trial and triathlete racers spend huge amounts of money trying to clip an extra few seconds off their times. This demand has led wheel and tire manufacturers to spend big dollars developing these aero advantages. Putting this into perspective, it is not uncommon for a competitive TT or track cyclist to spend upwards of $10K on two wheels alone. Can we learn from cyclists? I think we can and your idea to round tire edges is a good one.
John
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As a matter of general information, there is a fellow out here in Wichita, Kansas that is something of an old school artisan when it comes to heat forming poly and acrylic plastics. Danny is about my age and has better than 40 years experience doing this sort of thing for aircraft and other needs for plastic forming. I am especially happy to have found Danny because I want to use poly rather than acrylic for my wind screen and every company I contacted wanted to build some elaborate (and very expensive) custom made forming bucks. Danny will use the part I cut out of the body as the buck. He has the ovens and will slow heat the poly to get all the moisture out of the sheet before heat forming. For anyone interested in contacting him, here is his information:
Danny Decaire
KLP (K Line Plastics)
330 S. Water
Derby, Kansas 67037
316-788-3251 business phone
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John, just so you know, you can't use acrylic anyway. It shatters.
Wayno
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9ODMVdoWXM
Just out of interest, watch this.
He's cool and always willing to help with advice etc. :cheers:
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Wayno:
Once again, I am saved by my own ignorance (lol).
John
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Just picked up my new Terry Mourer made rear wheels (Podunk). Terry did a superb job tucking rear uprights in as far as possible on 4.125" wide wheels. His machining and wheel design skills are top notch. Take a look at the images and I am sure you will agree.
John
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John;
Are those Lola rear uprights?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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John;
Are those Lola rear uprights?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
They look like it, don't they, Neil? Reynard made them for their FF and FC cars.
John
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Thanks, John. I hope your car isn't very heavy. FF & FC cars are pretty light.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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That's some beautiful machining. Way to go Podunk!!!!. :cheers:
John, I wish you all the best with your project.
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John,
Your wheels are gorgeous!!!! Just to check it looks like you have four drive pins, have you checked with SCTA to see if that is a sufficient number? They will not let you run 4 lug wheels I am wondering if they would look at 4 drive pins as the same deal? I would make sure that you have some calculations regarding their diameter and shear load etc just to be safe. As we all know some times the inspectors can get a little touchy interpreting the rule book.
Sure nice wheels!!
Rex
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Hi Rex:
I sent Lee Kennedy and the SCTA tech committee detailed pictures and they signed off on it. They understood that the four pins are drive pins only and not lug studs. The large nut in the center is what clamps the wheel to the axle (center lock). It goes down to 110 foot pounds and is locked with two bronze tipped set screws. I have put e-mail copies of my conversation with Lee in my binder in case this part is questioned.
John
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Thanks, John. I hope your car isn't very heavy. FF & FC cars are pretty light.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Neil, I am hoping to bring total weight under 2000 pounds or a little more than twice what a Formula Continental weighs.
John
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You'll be running about the same weight as my car, John.
The difference in shear strength between drive studs and wheel studs is significant, The threaded portion of a fastener has lower strength than an unthreaded drive stud. If I remember correctly, the MacLaren Can-Am M8 used 4 drive pins (wheel studs).
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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You'll be running about the same weight as my car, John.
The difference in shear strength between drive studs and wheel studs is significant, The threaded portion of a fastener has lower strength than an unthreaded drive stud. If I remember correctly, the MacLaren Can-Am M8 used 4 drive pins (wheel studs).
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
You are correct, Neil. Initially, I wanted to fit my hubs with .500" diameter drive pins (same as Can-AM and F5000 cars) but could not find them and making them was not in the cards. What I did find were shoulder bolts. I turned these down to .620" diameter or nearly twice the diameter of those used in a FC car.
Also, with regard to weight; the car will likely come in well under 2000 pounds but it really doesn't matter much to me. I am more concerned about how weight is distributed. I tend to over build my LSR cars but the great white dyno eventually finds the weakest link even if we don't see it.
John
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No where near the quality of an Aircraft Winshield canopy but turned out race worthy. Very little distortion and clear visibility. If it is OK to film tint polycarbonate, I will go ahead and do so. If not, I may make another windscreen in a dark grey tint.
John
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It's beautiful!
But from this picture, can you see over the front "hump"?
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Yes, but just enough to see the track, line and mile markers. Like Stainless said, forward vision is highly over rated (LOL). But really, vision is good. I was primarily worried about distortions given the nine degree angle. As it turns out, there is very little distortion and quite a bit of clarity. I think a tinted version will be even better.
John
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There's a lot of work in that canopy.
Must have driven you nuts??.
It looks good. I'm also worried about vision etc.
I may have made my roll hoop too low. Just thinking. :|
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Far less than building the body, Mike, but it wasn't without problems. Every time I made progress, it changed something else. Canopies need to come off quickly and after securing the poly, I must have introduced enough stress to change mounting locations. Good thing I had not installed two pins up front or they may have changed position as well.
No worries, mate, vision out this canopy is good although somewhat restricted. No corner apex's to look for so all is well.
John
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John, there are corner apex's to look for on the elusive turn out roads at Bonneville. :-P
Wayno
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. . . and you're usually going faster than you think you are, so take the next one.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9ODMVdoWXM
Just out of interest, watch this.
He's cool and always willing to help with advice etc. :cheers:
Mike, the more I looked into blow forming polycarbonate, the more it appears the best way to get a distortion-free canopy. I wonder if instead of free forming the bubble, I can get reasonable quality by blow forming against a felt covered buck? If so, I think I can make a high temp box that will work.
John
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I found a local company that manufactures motorcycle screens.
War Eagle. They seem to know their stuff but it all comes down to cost.
I honestly don't have a budget. My build is based on miracles, luck and hard graft.
Gary Lavarack is building a car with his system. Big tooling.
Our needs are way less so the box the pressure vessel sits in will need to be pretty small.
I honestly believe my infra red heater with a small fan can generate the temps required.
It goes past 180*C. I'm going to have a go at it.
My concern with your method is the the polycarbonate might stick to the felt. In fact it will adhere.
Gary gets a water clear finish and uses a small laser to measure the height. As soon as
the material reaches the desired height he puts the air pressure on hold.
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Mine was drape formed over felt and it was perfect. Again, Aircraft Windshield in Los Alamitos, California. :cheers:
Wayno
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Thanks Wayno. I learn something new every day.
Thanks for that. :cheers:
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OK, so after all my wining, the canopy didn't turn out so bad after all. A good cleaning and polish will improve things further. I still want to make a dark grey one to reduce glare. Possibly a little thicker than the .093" sheet I have now. An .118" sheet will blend better with the fiberglass.
John
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John,
viewing this picture I think I have to give you an idea.
you got a very mild light, also not a direct light, on this windshield.
make this picture outside (again) with your windshield directly into the sun and if this is not possible get a light (in your workshop) directly from the front into the windshield and with an angle of 20 degrees above the windshield...
you will see a different picture...or maybe you can't see nothing anymore....
better you proof it with light now, before you make this experience when you try to run at the salt.
Hope to see you in September
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Good idea, Pork Pie and thank you.
I can't, at this time, move the car outside but I did take the canopy out in direct sunlight. If I point it at a dark object, like inside my garage, visibility goes to near zero. If I point it to a bright spot, visibility is very good. I reckon once the car is on the salt and pointed down track, all that white should help a great deal. I have a picture of Speed Demon from inside the car (see attached image) and if there was a visibility problem with all that polycarbonate, this car would have had it.
John
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How did you make the canopy John?.
I'm really interested.
BTW, why don't you just use a tinted helmet visor?. :cheers:
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How did you make the canopy John?.
I'm really interested.
BTW, why don't you just use a tinted helmet visor?. :cheers:
Mike, I heated the polycarbonate sheet to around 200 degrees F and left it in the oven for two days. This dried out moisture so when I turned up the heat, I would not get blisters. I used the part cut from the fiberglass as a buck, covered it with felt and when the poly was hot and pliable, draped it over the buck and smoothed by hand(s) until cool enough to hold form. There was only three of us (we needed four guys) so on our first attempt, we didn't get the hot sheet over the buck correctly. So, back in the oven and another attempt. Third time was a charm but left some defects behind and form wasn't ideal. Now that we know what not to do, the second sheet should go smoother. I will let you know next week.
All that clear poly makes me think I am in a fish bowl. Everything in the cockpit is open to view from toes to helmet. I will get more than a little self conscious when people see this fat boy crammed into a Lakester.
John
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Thanks for the info John.
Hey, we love you no matter what your body looks like. 8-)
I hope you don't cook inside the cockpit.
I'm still not sure what route to use for the screen.
What thickness did you use?. :cheers:
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I installed a CoolShirt fresh air system to my helmet. That really is a game changer and makes sitting in the car quite comfortable. Without it, I was prone to onset of a panic attack when breathing became labored.
The clear poly is .093" thick. The second tinted sheet is .118". I would go with thicker material for sure.
John
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Panic attacks???. Don't go there.
Happy you found a solution in the fresh air system.
We're all human and panic attacks are a SOB from hell!!!.
Anyone that's never experienced them might think sufferers
are weak etc. Not the case. I feel for you John. :cheers:
My screen will be pretty small but I need the 3D shape.
On that I won't compromise. Gotta have a go at this blow molding thing.
The local guy that makes canopies for planes and gliders is a jerk.
I called him to ask if he could manufacture one for me and he treated me like
I owed him money or something!!!. Not cool so I'm even more determined now.
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Yeah, panic is no fun. Hard to explain the feeling but if allowed to completely take over, you become completely irrational. Fortunately, it is controllable and managed with a fresh air system and sufficient visibility.
BTW, Aircraft Windshields got back to me today on a quote. They are actually quite reasonable but you need to provide tooling (a proper buck).
John
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John, I may have missed it but what are you using for an oven and how big is it?
Pete
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Peter, the oven is owned by a friend. We are going to heat form another windscreen late this week and I will post pictures of the oven and tools used to do the job.
John
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Finally have all but a few fasteners left to anchor the body. Lower perimeter all around and rear support for the very rear are all that is left. Next up is making/installing NACA ducts and aero bubbles for header and fuel rail. Very close to final teardown and finish welding 360 degrees of the chassis. Once accomplished, sand blast, prep with POR-15 and a top coat, then final assembly. I am getting excited just thinking about completion of this car.
John
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A little more progress today. Installed three NACA ducts, two for engine intakes and one for fresh air system. Bubbles, one on each side, are in two laminations of fiberglass now but when cured, filling and sanding will be done in preparation for a third glass lamination to cover any Bondo used. Additionally, I finished the support structure for rear body section. It also gave me a good place to put a master cutoff switch. Yes, it is a big opening but this is as far as I can go for 2017. However, this opening qualifies as access to the engine compartment so no additional panels are required.
John
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Lots of serious work going on there John!!!!.
The thing that impressed me most is that you used the correct NACA ducts.
Some may not know this but there is a formula for them dimension wise.
Well done on all the progress. I'm impressed by the whole build.
You ROCK!!!!!!!. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Hi Mke:
Well, as Sony and Cher sang, the beat goes on and finally, it ends. Ten weeks to get it all together. But 3D printing has made some things easier. We almost used it to make the bubbles but figured shaping foam was a faster way around this problem. Not the most uniform but acceptable. Printing NACA ducts was where printing shined. We were able to reproduce exact features for a correct duct. I had three guys over that helped build the body and got it all done in a day.
John
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John, it is great to see the correct application of submerged air inlets (NACA ducts) on your lakester. So many of these NACA-styled features are simply air scoops located at the front of the body. 3D printing is really a terrific solution to fabricating these correctly. Now, git 'er done! :cheers:
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I have the formula here so I made about 40 templates using it.
It's either right or doesn't work. You've seen the stuff some
companies sell. :-D :-D :-D
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John, I got your email with the video etc. Thanks so much. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Mike, the sheet of ploy in that video buckled when fully cooled so back in the oven it goes. That is one nice thing about this family of plastics, if you make a mistake, try again without damage to properties. The first windscreen went through three heat forming's before calling it quits. There were a couple of deformations that I didn't think would be a big problem but once bolted to the canopy and left to sit in my very hot garage for a couple of weeks, the poly began to noticeably improve. Go figure.
The last two days have been spent making rear body supports. Just about done with this sort of thing and next week should see me taking everything apart for a final 360 degrees of chassis welding. Stainless stopped by with some beautifully water jetted aluminum panels to make two fire doors for his car and made two for mine as well. I can't say enough about Stainless. One of those real, genuinely nice guys.
John
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This canopy thing intrigues me. I have to give it a try. What thickness do you suggest I use/try?.
Stainless and all the guys here are good friends. One big family. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I can't mention names because I might leave someone out but you won't believe the help
I've gotten and I'm on the other side of the planet!!!!.
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John, I want to make something similar to the screen on Bobby Moore's car
but if I use the Lavarack method of blow molding I'll have to cut an elipse
that's symmetrical and that will give me two examples back to back.
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Mike, if I didn't know better, the Moore windscreen looks like it could be cut directly from a flat sheet.
I used .093" thick poly for the first windscreen but went to .120" for the second one.the speed your car will go, maybe the .120" is better.
John
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Time to see if the front wheels fit without interference. Of course, they did not. I like using anti-ackerman on my race cars but due to the small wheel diameter and wider width, the steering arms contacted before wheels could be mounted. So, I now have a little Ackerman in my steering. No big deal.
John
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Those rims look really small. What tires are you running?
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250 mph rated, 18X4.4 aircraft tires.
John
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18 X 4.4 is the tire. The wheels are 10 inches :cheers:
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Made some real headway today. Firewall just about done. Found some 1000 degree (F) sealing tape that made things easier and fire putty for all other hard to get at areas. The engine cover, nose and forward body section are now in high fill primer. Used a paint roller to apply and was very pleased with results (see images). Thanks for the roller idea, Mike. Aero bubbles turned out well too. For those wondering if I penetrated the inner vertical plane of my wheels/tires with these aero bubbles, I strung the car from front and rear centerlines and am legal with a little room to spare up front. Actually, both bubbles tuck inside the widest part of my body so no worries.
John
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John, stringing from front to rear is not enough. The parts must be within the narrowest of the two. :cheers:
Wayno
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Way to go John.
That looks good man.
Glad to be of help. :cheers: :cheers:
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John, stringing from front to rear is not enough. The parts must be within the narrowest of the two. :cheers:
Wayno
Wayno:
I measured out from the front centerline of the chassis to the innermost part of my front wheels. I took this front measurement and repeated it from the centerline of the rear part of the chassis. The widest part of the body fits within these measurements and a little to spare. Rear track is far wider than the body so no worries there.
John
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Well, the lakester just got 12 pounds heavier. I had to ad a separate scatter shield for the clutch. No way to do one for both flywheel and clutch so...
John
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You'll have to help me -- that doesn't look like an "enclosure" -- maybe a "deflector".
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Stan, I must have missed it but I cannot find anywhere in the rulebook where the flywheel and clutch shield must be an enclosure. Both my clutch and flywheel shields are 360 degrees so maybe that serves as an enclosure? It is impossible to fully enclose my transaxle the way a conventional gearbox can so yes, it does deflect any clutch parts that may try and exit the transaxle bell housing. Deflectors extend well past the clutch and are very close to the trans case so an argument can be made that it is an enclosure. But the real reason for those deflectors is to create room for coil over dampers and still give as much explosion protection as possible. The flywheel, however, is fully enclosed. I bounced the finished product off to SCTA tech and they said OK.
John
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When are you going to mount the tires?
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Right after they are shaved. I do have a question about assembling the two piece wheels. Are you in Wichita now?
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Right after they are shaved. I do have a question about assembling the two piece wheels. Are you in Wichita now?
No at work in Denver. Lube torque the bolts. Our wheels have the spec molded in. 5/16 bolts with AN flat washers on ours
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Both front tires have now been mounted on Mourer made, two piece wheels and leak tested. I just snugged down the 3/8" grade 8 bolts and zero leaks. Once we shave tires and apply Alodine 1201 to all aluminum wheel surfaces, I will remount them and torque those bolts to 42 ft. lbs. with lube. Oh yeah, I used AN flat washers under bolt heads and nuts.
John
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John, torque those nuts to 42 lb-ft. Ft-lb is energy. Lb-ft is torque. Just a fetish of mine after editing technical documents for a century. :cheers:
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ah so now I know
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John, torque those nuts to 42 lb-ft. Ft-lb is energy. Lb-ft is torque. Just a fetish of mine after editing technical documents for a century. :cheers:
Shoot, Dick, all this time I thought it was just a British thing to call torque lb-ft.
John
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And all this time I thought the Britts used Newtons per Meter N/m which would probably be the same relationship as Lb/Ft... :|
luckily everyone makes the same mistake so it is universally misused.... (OK, everyone but Dick) :cheers:
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where is Slim---it sounds to me it is more like nouns vs. verbs
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Dick, do we all have to get our torque wrenches re-calibrated of just wait for the click? :? :-o :-D
Devil is in the details! :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Where is Slim? I'm sitting here, eating a bowl of Frosted Flakes and wondering how the heck I'm gonna enter the fray.
I think I won't. PASS.
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Sorry about the minutiae, but since we are all working with torque, whether that produced by our wheel-driving power plants, or to safely tighten our fasteners, it is about time that we all use the correct terminology.
Torque is defined as the radius (r) times the force (F). So, it is obviously NOT ft/lb (lb/ft?) or N/m (Newtons divided by meters).
Sorry, Stainless, it is N-m, not N/m. Actually N "dot" m, but I can't find that math symbol in my font. The "-" is commonly used in texts.
I was the engineering Manager at Stearns Electric for 9 years designing magnetic clutches and brakes. We manufactured TORQUE. I still find it incredible that even torque wrench manufacturers get it ass backwards.
What is really important here is that John's wheels remain firmly attached to this marvelous lakester - and the engine produces enough torque at the appropriate speed to get his 300 mi/h hat.
GO JOHNNY G!
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Mayoman, I usually don't bug the hot rodders about ft-lb & lb-ft [no caps] but the engineers - that's another matter - especially the ones that can't spell hysteresis! :-o :-D
N•m
To get the dot: hold the ALT key and type 0149
• ALT0149
° ALT0176
± ALT0177
² ALT0178
³ ALT0179
µ ALT0181
Ø ALT0216
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The phenomenon in which the value of a physical property lags behind changes in the effect causing it, as for instance when magnetic induction lags behind the magnetizing force.
I Googled it!!!!. More confusssed than ever now. :-D
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"With lube" changes torque value depending on what lube is used. Too slick can excede metal strenght before torque is reached. Several sites give charts, don't remember off the top of my head.
Ron
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The phenomenon in which the value of a physical property lags behind changes in the effect causing it, as for instance when magnetic induction lags behind the magnetizing force.
I Googled it!!!!. More confusssed than ever now. :-D
An easy example of hysteresis is something that's triggered on by one condition but then not triggered off when that first condition is no longer valid. Like a radiator fan... turns on at 200°F but turns off at 190°. The 10° gap between on and off means that you get a clean on/off. Otherwise, if the on/off point was the same temp, you could see the fan turning on and off as temp floats around the trigger point.
Now back to being on topic again...
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Hey John, what's the latest?. :cheers:
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Mike, I have been at Stainless' house shaving front tires for the past two days. What a job! The wrap guy stopped by and said we can stop sanding (great news!), that surface finish is good enough to wrap. Over the next week, I will be finishing up all chassis details and begin stripping the car for chassis paint.
John
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Mike, I have been at Stainless' house shaving front tires for the past two days. What a job! The wrap guy stopped by and said we can stop sanding (great news!), that surface finish is good enough to wrap. Over the next week, I will be finishing up all chassis details and begin stripping the car for chassis paint.
John
Fun job shaving tires :-D We are getting better at it :cheers:
John
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John, you guys have tire shaving down to a science. All the changes Rob has made to equipment make shaving multiple angles a breeze but it still takes time. We did five tires in two days.
John
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Dang! My beautiful new front wheels and tires are just small enough to rob me of the required 1.50"-1.75" ground clearance. So, the next two days will be spent raising the bottom damper attachment points. Time is running out to fix unexpected things like this.
John
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Hey, wouldn't be any fun at all if there wasn't a last minute thrash and/or credit card busting expense. This is Bonneville after all! :cheers: :roll:
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Not cool John but if it wasn't for the 11th hour nothing would get done. :dhorse:
I hope you come right?.
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John, let me suggest you do yourself a psychological favor.
Take an hour, go back to the beginning of this build diary, read it front to back, and then realize precisely how much you have really accomplished in a very short period of time.
Then go out and fix the ride height.
You're still in really good shape - you just need to remind yourself of that.
Kate and I will be there - looking forward to meeting you. :cheers:
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John, let me suggest you do yourself a psychological favor.
Take an hour, go back to the beginning of this build diary, read it front to back, and then realize precisely how much you have really accomplished in a very short period of time.
Then go out and fix the ride height.
You're still in really good shape - you just need to remind yourself of that.
Kate and I will be there - looking forward to meeting you. :cheers:
Miles to go before I sleep, MM but appreciate your encouragement. Sorry to miss you at SpeedWeek this year as we are registered for World of Speed instead. Less crowded and a good place to take a new, unproven car. It also gives me an extra month to get things done.
John
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Ground clearance adjustment, restored along with my sanity! Cost me two days but am very pleased with the result. Hey, Stainless, I can even use the small tires!! Plenty of adjustment to about three inches, exactly what I originally wanted when working with the 22" skinnies (17X2.5 dragster wheels).
John
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It took us 17 years from start to making a run this July at Loring.
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It took us 17 years from start to making a run this July at Loring.
Now I don't feel so bad.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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So, I am trying to stay out of the tech inspection frying pan and decided to change how I route my fuel lines and where to mount the fuel pump. I think the new method is much better (safer).
John
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Nice install...
Don't forget rule 3.I.1
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Made me look . . .
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Nice install...
Don't forget rule 3.I.1
Yes sir. I have an inertia shutoff switch at hand but not without much bellyaching to Stainless about why it is needed. Good thing Stainless is patient. I can be a handful at times.
John
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POR15 rust preventer/inhibitor and silver top coat isn't the most beautiful paint job you will ever see (especially brushed on like I did) but it sure covers metal well. I hope it does what it is supposed to and protects my frame and related steel parts from rusting.
John
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Looking good John. All the best!!!!. :cheers:
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Nice install...
Don't forget rule 3.I.1
Good thing Stainless is patient. I can be a handful at times.
John
That is a side of him that is not seen often :roll:
Johnboy
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Back half of the chassis is in POR15 rust inhibitor after sand blasting. Didn't want to spray in the open so eight hours behind a paint brush got the job done. No time for a top coat so will have to try and limit direct sunlight. Finally, I get to start putting the car back together.
John
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The lakester is scary close to completion. Stainless stopped by and sorted my ECU wiring loom. Rob's generosity with time and resources is humbling. A true friend and patron of the sport. Anyway, with Rob's help, Dave Dahlgren now has a working electrical diagram to complete wiring. This means I very well may be able to start the engine and check out all systems by next week! Maybe even a little dyno time as well. Might just make WoS yet.
John
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Looks great John. I hope you pull it off?. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Looks great John. I hope you pull it off?. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Thanks, Mike. Started the engine today and boy, does the thing sound angry! No oil or coolant leaks so it is on to finish wiring. It will be close but I think we will make it.
John
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The real race has been preparing the lakester in time for WOS. With little to no time to spare, it appears as though we might make it. A few things left to do on the car and trailer, then, wheels hit the ground for one more hot test before the trek west.
John
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Good luck with it John. It's looking great. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Show Time!!!!!! Have fun John!!!!!!!!
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John,
Go fast and be safe! Looking for good things from you and your car.
Rex
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Thanks, guys. You know better than I that that big white place can humble you. We sure will give it our best.
John
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John,
Go fast and be safe! Looking for good things from you and your car.
Rex
Like Rex said. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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well John, I disagree with your description ---its not so great any more :cry: pols have let the BLM allowed it to be mined out of existence
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John,
Ross tells me you may need some ground crew.
Team Graybeards will be happy to help. Even a 4 wheeler...
When do you arrive in Wendover?
Sam
#6062
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John,
Ross tells me you may need some ground crew.
Team Graybeards will be happy to help. Even a 4 wheeler...
When do you arrive in Wendover?
Sam
#6062
Sam, sorry for the late reply. Still thrashing long hours getting ready.
I had three guys lined up, then they couldn't al go, then they could go but at different times and now they all three can make it. But I will look you up when we get to the salt. I appreciate the offer.
John
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Last day of WOS and had a great time. We fought a shifting problem that would not allow us to shift past 3rd gear until the last day of competition. We found a small spring that one of its legs would randomly lodge between two dowels, not allowing the shift barrel to rotate. Too bad we found this so late or I have no doubt the car would have gone well over 200 mph. The final run saw the car spin but Lyn still turned in a 178 mph pass at the quarter. At the end of the day, my co driver, Lyn St. James and I did get our B license.
I have to send out a huge thank you to Stainless for all the help before and during the race. He kept us all organized and pointing in the same direction.
I must also mention that the John Stowe/Ted Wenz race engine performed flawlessly the entire meet as did the little Hewland Mk9 gearbox. Other than that little spring issue, the gearbox held up just fine.
We will definitely be back next year stronger and faster than ever, if Mother Nature smiles on us.
John
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One last word on this build project; if you can swing it, book time in the Darko Technologies wind tunnel. It will reveal things you had no idea existed and will give you a faster, safer and more stable race car if you heed the data. I would have bet money that my Cp and Cg relationship was good but it turned out not to be the case. The tunnel confirmed what was experienced driving the car and how to correct the problem. Woody can do the same thing with CFD and I was going that direction but Darko was more convenient after WoS.
John
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Good one John. Keep the faith.
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You guys did a beautiful job on the lakester. I was checking it out and took a bunch of pictures. Well thought out and nicely designed.
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Wicked:
Looks like we had a mutual admiration society going at WOS. I was doing the same thing to your car. I love Ghia's and after seeing how clean and well prepared your car is, I started thinking unforgivable thoughts of finding a road going version. I like the early models best but also like IRS. Still, a clean 1964-67 with a killer engine would keep me smiling for years.
The lakester had a few new car teething problems at WOS. I expected this but you never know what to prepare for. Sequential shifting problems plagued us for three race days preventing us from getting 3, 4 and 5 gears. We were chasing ride height all week and when finally getting it right, something in the badly beaten up belly pan gave way causing the car to spin at 180 mph. Not too much damage but it ended our week (everybody else's too on the short course). One bright spot was the engine. It performed flawlessly all week. Can't wait until next year when we make necessary improvements and see this car run to its potential speed. It may open some eyes.
John
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Bonneville has a way of showing you all weak areas of your car and does so very quickly. We had a horrible time seeing out of the homemade, heat formed windshield and was barely able to pick our way down the track. Just too much distortion in critical viewing areas. The only solution was to put this in the hands of a professional and get it done right. I contacted a recommended company in Los Angeles who has built polycarbonate windshields for a number of LSR racers but never got far with them. Don't understand why but after sending pictures of what I wanted and an enthusiastic exchange of ideas, no future contact was forthcoming even after several attempts to reengage. Bummer. Lyn attended a race event at Phoenix International Raceway and met with a rep from Racing Shields out of Martinsville, Indiana. She explained the problem and they said it should be easy making a windshield to our satisfaction. I used .093" poly and Racing Shields said it should have been a minimum of .125". Now that I have seen the final product, I can see no distortion in this new shield whatsoever (see image of windshield as viewed from inside the car). Hopefully, one problem solved.
Second, my right rear rocker took a big hit when Lyn got airborne and spun. Both rockers were sent to Ron Mong's shop for redesign and substantial strengthening. I think you will agree, the end result looks like a tank.
Thirdly, Stainless is helping me widen my front axle from 33" to 50". The tunnel said this will be an aero improvement so it will get done. While we are at it, a Watts link will replace the horrible Panard bar that caused us to constantly correct for a self steering car.
There are other things too. A much, much sturdier belly pan bolted, not Dzus fastened to the chassis, three foot addition to the rear, all the stuff tech wants to see next time through inspection and the list goes on.
John
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Thirdly, Stainless is helping me widen my front axle from 33" to 50". The tunnel said this will be an aero improvement so it will get done.
John
I sincerely appreciate you sharing what you learn. The track width has been a question for me for a while and the primary reason I am building a scale wind tunnel. Now I have your empirical data and eventually some relative scale data to give me a direction. I will let you know the results I get in scale (if anything useful emerges). I am in the US for parts buying work for two weeks and will start on the model when I get home. If nothing else the model can sit on my office desk and remind me why I go to work.
:cheers:
John
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Stainless cut and welded into the existing axle tube, a 50” long, 1 3/8” OD, .250” wall piece of 4130. This brought the original axle from 33" to 50". All hardware for the Watts link is made and loosely installed for fit and function purposes. Modifying the original axle to fit a Watts link system was no easy task. Initially, everything wanted to get in the way of everything else. Eventually, a workable solution was found.
After campaigning the car last year, connecting links (camber, caster, toe and trailing) leftovers from the donor Formula Continental seemed a bit light duty for Bonnevillle. They worked OK but for no other reason than a little extra confidence, I built bigger, beefier ones with corresponding increase in rod end size. The wrench hexes don't hurt my feelings either.
John
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The final front axle assembly. Now, on to the rear for a three foot addition.
John
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Looks good John. You don't realize how far you've come until you look at how the build started out.
I don't think there's another branch of motorsports where the cars take this long to build.
This is all passion and determination IMO. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Very interesting how the width of the front axle can make such a change. It will be interesting to see how it works on the salt. Are you planning to be at WOS?
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Very interesting how the width of the front axle can make such a change. It will be interesting to see how it works on the salt. Are you planning to be at WOS?
Most of the wider front track aero change came from moving contact point of the inner wake vector farther back along the body. Should help with stability too (I hope).
Couldn't make WOS this year but plan to make it in 2019.
John
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Gravity power?
If so can you skinny up the wheels a little?
I did that with my boys years ago, good fun, especially when the shop is to cold.
Rex
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Gravity power?
If so can you skinny up the wheels a little?
I did that with my boys years ago, good fun, especially when the shop is to cold.
Rex
Rex, our pack has pretty strict rules for kids cars. Mostly stock parts, un modified other than to take mold flashing off wheels and polish axles. Other than that, about all you can do is reduce weight in the body (still must maintain a 7" long and 1 3/4" wide body) and put remaining weight wherever you want but not to go over 5 ounces, total. And yes, it is fun but tried to get my grandson to participate. Has been a great opportunity to teach a little physics along the way.
John
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Many improvements and outright changes are being made to the lakester before WoS this year. One modification was to strengthen my Strange Engineering spindle mount front axles. A number of people suggested I strengthen these spindles or at least make thicker steering arms for them. I guess some have had cracking and/or flexing problems with these parts. Now, I had these same spindles on my first car for over eight years without issue but this latest round of suggestions to replace them, began to slowly erode my confidence.
So, I called Terry Mourer (Podunk) and asked if he would make new and improved stainless steel kingpins and while he was at it, strengthen the steering arms. What we came up with are two spindles with welded in place, .250" thick, 4130 steering arms and a 4130 rectangular bar triangulating the steering arm to bottom portion of the spindle body. What I ended up with is a very strong weldment and a spindle I have absolute faith in. If you have any concerns with these spindles on your car, give Terry a call.
John
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John,
Did I read some where that you were not going to be at WOS? Really sorry to hear that Duke and I were looking forward to seeing your car.
Rex
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Hi Rex:
Yeah, I had to bail this year. We were going to concentrate on getting Lyn into the 200 mph club but she crashed pretty hard at an SVRA Race of Champions held at the Indianapolis road course and fractured the T-22 vertebrae. She said everything was OK and that her doc had cleared her to drive but I was not going to risk it. Lyn is a true professional and she really wants into the 2-club (we want her there too) but in the event something should go dreadfully wrong on course, well, you know what I mean.
So, we will be back next year and really ready for some serious speed.
John
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We had a little time over 2018/19 to make changes and create a few updates. Attached are images of the completed Watts link, new battery placement (farther forward), wider front axle, new spindle arm, repositioned plate for all electronics and fire bottles (easy access) and a glimpse at what all new trailing links look like (much beefier). I think we now have better weight distribution. What remains is to build a three foot addition to the rear complete with rear stabilizer. This should give us a more favorable Cp/Cg relationship.
John
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John
How long (centre to centre) are your Watts linkage ?link arms??
I am trying to decide between Watts and a sliding block for the rear axle and was worried about short arms. (With deep pockets)
I guess the axle movement is quite slight in terms of bump and rebound so won?t find their limits?
Lemming John
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John, I will get those link lengths out to you tomorrow but it really doesn?t matter how long they are. Given the amount of vertical travel we see, even short arms work fine.
John
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John, horizontal links are 4.25 inches long end-to-end and 7.25 inches long center-to-center on rod ends. I can move the front axle up and down through a full range (before things begin to run into one another) and the vertical prop link hardly moves. When one end of the axle moves up, the prop link does move some but does so in concert with the other end. It is a great setup and should keep my axle in perfect alignment through bump. The old Panard bar caused the axle to shift laterally in bump.
I don?t see any problem with sliding block if it is aligned properly and kept greased. Things take a hard pounding on the salt so whatever you decide, make it sturdy, then go back and double that.
John
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Thanks John
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Depending on how you go about it, I think a Watts link easier to build than a sliding block.
John
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I am leaning that way. My rear design has subtly altered from my original concept sketches and may well be better suited to Watts. The rear axle rear cover with reinforcing and bracketry could go either way.
Recognising your Watts pic was a front end here, I am still undecided on the front axle setup.
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I have been re thinking front suspension. I am uncomfortable with how close lower shock attachments are to the under tray. I have an axle droop stop but any compression of the rubber stop and shock mounts contact the tray. I was going to redo front shocks in favor of a rocker arrangement for 2021 but decided to do it this year instead. I think it better for a number of reasons so here is what it looks like so far. Just waiting for warmer weather to finish welding pivot posts and drop links.
John
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I wish I could be at SW2020 and see it in the metal.
I have mocked up version 1 of my rear rockers but the load path isn't ideal so I am moving to version 2 and procrastinating by doing work in other areas hoping for a light bulb moment.
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John, I went through a similar process. Originally, I wanted to use as much existing utility on the car as possible. That meant making pivot post brackets bolting to top shock mounts. That didn?t pass muster with an aircraft structure engineer friend of mine so on to the next iteration. I must have gone through several designs in my head, hoping for that ?lightbulb moment?. Most ideas I was coming up with were 15W at best. Tom Burkland eventually bailed me out with the idea of simply welding directly into the top chassis crossmember, two pivot posts much like you would with threaded weld-in bungs. Perfect solution with an even lower profile. Only perceived downside is the rocker pivot is operating in tension rather than the more desirable compression. I think this acceptable because specs for these rod ends say they are safe to 17,000 psi. So, as it stands, other than having a beam front axle, everything has changed from the original front end.
John
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We are having unseasonably nice weather this week and it gave me opportunity to complete the front suspension. My version of a Watts link, rocker front axle.
John
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That looks tidy. Is that a lot of preload on the springs or just in mock up at the moment?
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A mock up, for the most part, John. Once car is on the ground, spring perches will be adjusted for desired ride height. Any additional adjustments will be through vertical links from axle to rockers. If I got it right, springs will be in contact with both perches with axle in full droop. Counting on about .500? spring compression with tires on the ground.
John
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Did you make the rockers for the front suspension more than 1:1 for a particular reason?
Also I noticed the front radius rods are ahead of the axle instead of behind like we usually see on roadsters, sprint cars ect... Any particular reason for this?
Also when one see's a G/F designation, does that mean you plan on running two different engine classes with the same car (I'm new to land speed racing)?
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Pup, I can help here a little, John is almost my neighbor and we were planning to run on each others records in a little competition the 18 WoS... we wrecked the Bockscar, so I was John's crew chief instead of his opponent, trying to help him take my G gas record. John owns the G (120 inch) fuel record with his previous car.... hence G/F Lakester. He had the G gas (G/GL) record until I took it... Bonneville competition is kinda friendly... although those Roadster guys fight a lot... :? OK, just kidding.... calm down guys... aktion086
Anyway that is what is going on there.... :cheers:
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Sorry... us old guys get sidetracked easily.... the rockers are intentionally more than 1:1... the idea is if you limit your axle to 1 inch of total movement, your shocks don't really have a chance to be effective... to small of an area... BUT...
if you make the shock move almost twice as much the suspension is has a better chance of controlling the axle...
That is my target... so just guessing here.... but I'd bet John would tell that is why.....
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Oh I get it, it was G FUEL Lakester, not G 120c.i. AND F 180c.i. engine sizes..
And thanks of the rocker info...
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Puppy:
Stainless pretty much covered all your questions. The G/F designation was for a single engine running for ?G? class gas and fuel records.
Radius rods pointed in opposite direction from what may be considered conventional, was to gain a little space for possible changes going forward. I borrowed this configuration from Stainless?s Bockscar 1.
John
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Thanks guys!!!
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Oh I get it, it was G FUEL Lakester, not G 120c.i. AND F 180c.i. engine sizes..
And thanks of the rocker info...
Although sometimes on the vehicle, folks don't put a / in the class designation, the first letter designates the engine size class and is AA to K. After the / comes G or F for fuel designation preceded by a B if blown. Then the body class lettering P, GC, Alt, CC.S, L etc and then you throw in various V, X's,O's C's and such for other categories(engine and body). It sure can get complicated for a newbie but after a while actually makes sense...?sorta. :roll: :cheers:
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... and then there are bikes....
opps back to the subject of the thread... some guy building a lakester in Wichita.... really... aktion086 :laugh:
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Well, now that World of Speed has been canceled and I don't have enough time to prepare the lakester for Speed Week, I can relax getting a few things done on the car. Aside from all the obvious things learned from 2017, finishing off the final three feet completing a better aero package (according to the Darko wind tunnel), has taken quite a bit of time. Like most things of this type, several iterations were considered, then discarded, to the point where I had to shoot the engineer and start building. As it turned out, that was a good way to begin. Bad ideas presented themselves quickly and better ideas emerged. So, I began at the bottom with a triangle and worked my way up.
I wanted to retain both push bar and parachute tether locations as they had worked well in 2017 but everything had to expand three additional feet. Images are better than any words I can muster so here are a few. I am limited to 500 KB total image size so I may have to post the rest in another posting or two.
John
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Here are the rest of the images. Once the 3/16" thick aluminum plate belly pan is bolted in, I should have a very rigid and hopefully, better aero structure. Rex, don't let Duke see my welding (LOL).
Stainless water jet cut access doors a couple of years back and now that I have nearly closed off the back end, they needed to be installed. Not the most perfect perimeter cuts but will spruce them up before color goes on.
John
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That's a tiny machine for a 500" Keith Black hemi!
(Maybe not G, but Gee!)
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Hah! Good catch, Stan. I corrected my error. Huuum, a 500? KB in my little lakester...naw, won?t fit. Heck, even I don?t fit in it any more.
John
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Too small.... oh come on... one of those big hemi's will fit in anything if you work at it.... this is not a photoshop shot... actual pic from when we a question to the SCTA about frame sizes... got a quick 'NO WAY we will let you run that".... it's all part of the fun...
:cheers:
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So, the insanity really DOES run that deep.
John
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We had one laying around out of the dragster.... soooooo who knew it would fit.... :cheers:
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You had a dragster, Stainless?
John
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Mountain States Automation... Racing division... That motor was in a Blown Alcohol RED... That thing was a little more expensive to operate than the 1 liter Lakester.... even if you factor in the failures attributed to over use of N20.... :laugh: :? :wink:
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After watching an Ultrachiller cool shirt work at Speed Week (Bockscar), I though this the perfect addition to my lakester. It is a simple device and all parts save the shirt and submersible pump, can be sourced from Home Depot or some other big box store like it. The only real problem, at least for me, was finding correct poly tubing connectors. I settled on 5/16? and had to order the T and one 90 degree elbow from the UK. Thank goodness for free freight. So, other than waiting for a couple of fittings from overseas, the chiller part is done. Ultra chiller sells just the cool shirt for $100 so the whole mess set me back about $150. That beats $600 by a bunch.
Now, I haven?t tested it yet So it may not work but all components are duplicates of an Ultrachiller. I want this system to mount in car so additional water lines have to be installed. Depending on whether I use insulated lines from chiller to driver or just regular poly tubing remains to be seen. Insulated is best but expensive.
Hope this works because with money saved, I can get a much needed GPS Speedo.
John
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Why do you need a GPS speedometer?
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Just like you Stan, he drives it there. :-D
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Stan:
Originally, I liked the idea of having a GPS speedo for licensing runs but later saw value in it for normal runs as well. I have a shift light but seeing mph at mile markers gives me a better idea on gearing. I use a very reliable gear calculator for time and distance but so many things can interrupt the normal, having mph available will help. This may just be a personal choice but if it helps, then it is a good tool.
John
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John, I used GPS when I ran in the 130 club and got a talking to for going 150+.
I had no idea that there was a GPS speed lag, it was showing 138 mph.
That said, it was 2004 and I'm sure that new GPS speedos are much better now and with your intensions it probably doesn't matter anyway.
Don
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Don:
The GPS speedometer I will be using is an RB Racing unit. Bob custom makes these to order and uses a Garmin 18X 5Hz receiver which refreshes five times per second. That should be fast enough to eliminate any perceived lag (I hope).
John
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Your cell phone makes a pretty good GPS. I downloaded a free app tried it in the roadster it was within 1 MPH of timing slip and may actually be dead nuts on recorded top speed.
I have been using an app called Speedometer 55 GPS Speed & HUD.
Besides it's an easy way to check the speedo/odometer in your truck, car, bike, skateboard, ETC.
Anyway it's free!
I also have an Ultra Chiller. The owner lives near me so I went ahead and supported him and bought one. Yeah full price. I honestly don't think you need the insulated lines. Might consider insulating the Reservoir?
Anyhow, I tossed the AA bat. pack & ran power for the pump to cars 12v with a switch. I switched so I can turn off when I am cool enough & not using up all the ice before I get moving.
I going to try taking a 1 liter water bottle freeze it, cut the bottle off when ready to use. Now I have a chuck of ice that fits right into the Reservoir. Got to be better than pieces of ice & easier to store.
Chris
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Chris:
I thought about using my cell phone as GPS speedo, several racers do. Not exactly sure why but I like the looks of a dedicated gauge. Also, I will have three or four warning lights on the same GPS gauge mount. RB racing uses a single large bolt to secure the gauge so I do not have to use a 4? hole saw on the mount bracket.
Yep, I am going to insulate the reservoir. Sound advice. And yes to wiring this unit into a switched 12v fused relay. Also sound advice.
John
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Hey John, firesleeve makes a pretty good insulator... in and out could be in the same piece... I might have the right size... come look Tuesday.... should be installing my Landrum Performance springs if Linda doesn't have re-direction efforts in the plan.
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See you Tuesday, Stainless.
John
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How is this little Lakester going haven?t had a update in a while
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Unfortunately, I sold the car to a young fellow in Colorado. He has the resources to extract its full potential. It got to be a little though to do on social security (lol).
John
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Hey John
Disappointed to read you moved the lakester on but completely understand the logic. I am back online but only lurking. We relo'ed to NZ last year so some big life changes ate a lot of time; building a house but the planned workshop is contingency budget and that's pretty much blown. I do have space at the rental and am progressing slowly. Increasingly looking like 2025 so that's 7 years for a 3 year project - I think we first went to SpeedWeek in 2016 as spectators and got bitten so 9 years is perhaps a better timeline.
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Howdy, John:
It can be very hard facing reality at times but it became quite clear I was going to have to move the lakester into younger hands. To bad, really, as the car benefitted from a season at Bonneville and wind tunnel time. Both pointed to several changes that would help it get closer to the car?s potential. That said, there are no plans to leave Bonneville entirely. I have three engines, (one 2L turbo, one 2L NA and a semi finished I6 3.0L turbo) one of which I would love to partner with someone with a good car. All in the hands of the Salt Gods, I suppose. Any interested car owners out there?
John
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Been wanting to do a 2 liter in the roadster & run G/GR. Not sure how the C4 transmission would work with the smaller displacement?
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Chris,
I have a good start for a 2 liter salt motor. 2008 Ford Zetec, Hilborn electronic fuel injection, custom header, adapter for a BW T-5 five speed tranny, 10 lb flywheel, 9 inch performance clutch (don't remember the mfg). Trans has the .85 fifth gear instead of the normal .73. Bought as a Ford replacement long block has less than 5000 mile on it in my 28 lakes roadster. Probably good for 150-170 hp as is but with cams, CNC heads and some extra compression would probably be north of 250. Probably not what you can get from a bored and stroked Hayabusa but lots cheaper.
Rex
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As you all know, I don't know much.
But what is the advantage of having an automatic trans. when you can have a manual that goes straight through in high gear?
Especially in a vehicle with a smaller displacement.
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It's mostly about space. just don't have room for a shifter, Linkage, & clutch pedal.
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Ain't a C4 bigger than a T-10?