Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => 2017 and before: SW & WF => SpeedWeek 2015 => Topic started by: Dynoroom on October 13, 2015, 01:21:49 PM

Title: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Dynoroom on October 13, 2015, 01:21:49 PM
Ron Main forwarded this email to me this morning. Thought you might like to see what other people think about the depletion of the Bonneville Salt Flats...




By William White

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3014279-155/op-ed-speed-week-cancellation-does-not

 

First Published Oct 09 2015 01:36PM    •    Last Updated Oct 09 2015 01:36 pm

William White

Sadly, 2015 Speed Week and World of Speed events were cancelled by the racing community due to undesirable surface conditions (partially dissolved surface salt-crust layer or stratum) that prevented establishment of a race course having sufficient length required for record setting.

Some members of the public believe that this year's poor racing surface is proof of purported Bonneville Salt Flats deterioration and that it is solely due to brine extraction by a potash mining company. They also believe that U.S. Bureau of Land Management has not been sufficiently rigorous in its protection of the salt flats. Disputing facts follow.

All potash production from the salt flats prior to 1963 was from private land south of Interstate 80, which was patented between 1917 and 1927 under the 1872 mining law. Potash production north of I-80 from collection ditches on the eastern margin of the flats, is from a federal lease issued by BLM in 1963; production is a small percentage of total annual production. This lease was issued prior to the 1969 National Environmental Policy Act with its requirements to consider impacts to the environment. The federal lease is a valid existing right subject to specific conditions set forth in the lease.

It is indisputable that surface salt-crust stratum conditions are changed this year from previous drought-influenced years. May 2015 was wettest on record during the 1997 - 2015 period (Western Regional Climate Center, www.wrcc.dri.edu/). Although surface salt-crust stratum has changed this year, overall mass and volume of the salt flats remains relatively unchanged. This is based on BLM salt crust thickness studies conducted in 1988, 2003, and field-checked in 2015.

The 2003 study concluded that there was virtually no change in salt crust mass and volume during the 15-year period between 1988 and 2003 when the same measurement method was used. Since there was no change in volume, purported annual depletion rate of 1.1 percent generated from the 1988 study was shown to be invalid. Consequently, perception that Bonneville Salt Flats is disappearing at this erroneous depletion rate is unsupportable based on thickness data and volume calculations from the 2003 study.

Responding to the racing community's concerns, BLM and University of Utah geologists examined salt-crust exposures at mile posts 3 and 5 of Speed Week's 2015 proposed race course. During the July 15 examination, they observed that surface salt-crust stratum had thinned, become soft and slushy in some areas, and like scattered popcorn in others, exposing underlying thin gypsum stratum. However, when BLM augered bore holes adjacent to each mile post, they measured an additional 2 to 3 feet of salt thickness present beneath the thin, 0.5 to 1-inch thick gypsum stratum. These thicknesses are consistent with total salt-crust thicknesses measured from nearest bore holes drilled during BLM's 2003 salt-crust thickness study.

BLM engaged in a cooperative agreement with two potash mining companies (Intrepid Potash Wendover, LLC and predecessor, Reilly Industries, Inc.) to conduct an experimental Salt Laydown Project to replenish salt to Bonneville Salt Flats. Between 1997 and 2012, an estimated 9.8 million tons of sodium-chloride salt were transferred from company private land to the salt flats north of I-80. Since 2012, another 1.5 million tons have been added for a total of 11.3 million tons to date.

BLM's monitoring and data collection from the Laydown experiment and the subsequent 2003 salt-crust thickness study produced three peer-reviewed published papers, which assessed the Salt Laydown Project's efficacy (see "Salt Flats Research," www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/salt_lake/recreation/bonneville_salt_flats.html).

Based on these published papers and review of Intrepid's 2006 mining and reclamation plan, BLM mandated that Intrepid continue the Salt Laydown Project for life of lease. Intrepid is also required to quantify and report salt tonnage being withdrawn from federal-lease collection ditches. Furthermore, tonnage extracted from federal-lease collection ditches north of I-80 may not exceed tonnage being replaced through the Salt Laydown Project, and Intrepid must perform a salt-crust thickness study similar to BLM's 2003 study by 2018.

Intrepid recently contracted with Brenda Bowen, Associate Professor, Geology & Geophysics, University of Utah, to conduct the 2018 salt-crust thickness study. BLM will use results of the 2018 study to determine if additional mitigating measures will be necessary in management and protection of Bonneville Salt Flats.

William White is a registered professional geologist (Idaho & Utah), and was BLM's physical scientist responsible for monitoring and assessing progress of the Salt Laydown Project from 1997 through 2007.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: SPARKY on October 13, 2015, 01:58:46 PM
Hmmmmmm  lets see if I got this right?

BLM  in charge of Resource  contracts extraction rights to commercial venture

 who then Pays a College Professor to "asses" the condition of the Resource and write a report on how well the resource is doing

the BLM employee then "ASSES" the "asses report" and then write an article and let every one know they can't believe
 their lying eyes-- that they "HAVE" the truth and are reporting it!

Yep I think I got it, I must have lyin eyes!
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 13, 2015, 02:16:21 PM
  It would be nice to know If any "independent" geologists or spectator's were allowed to witness the July 15, 2015 "tests" or if the University of Utah receives or received any compensation for their past and present "help" with studies and findings or if in fact they only provided manual labor (as in "lackey's").
  I don't recall that any of Russ or Sid's drill holes mentioned "two to three feet of salt thickness under less than one inch of gypsum stratum at the three and five mile".
  Maybe they didn't count the two feet of bull sh*t that the public has been fed by the BLM for the last fifty years.
  The question remains:  WHERE HAS TWO TO THREE FEET OF SALT DISSAPEARED TO SINCE 1960?
                                                                                               Bob Drury
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Peter Jack on October 13, 2015, 02:23:33 PM
If one reads the last sentence describing who the author is, I have to think he's simply covering his a$$. The article lacks credibility big time.

Pete
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: fredvance on October 13, 2015, 02:43:52 PM
Well if things continue as they are going right now Brenda will have an easy job. There wont be any salt crust to measure!!
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: BHR301 on October 13, 2015, 02:55:20 PM
Hope he was well paid for selling his integrity to write this piece of misinformation!

Bill
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: sofadriver on October 13, 2015, 03:21:17 PM
People like this just dont seem to understand that the additional salt needs to be on the SURFACE.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 13, 2015, 04:01:44 PM
  One more observation:  The 2018 date of the next Salt Crust Survey contracted by the BLM and to be carried out Brenda Bowen, associate professor of Geology and Geophysics, University of Utah sounds like BLM funding of a hired gun using their Title for private work.  I don't see any collusion possible here...............
  Please tell Me that this isn't the same "smiling faced non-committal spokesperson" who took part in the original Salt Lake City Tribune Round Table Discussion which coincidently the BLM was invited to and was "unable" to attend...............................
  o.k., I lied... Does this mean that the BLM intends to do nothing until they receive the report of the 2018 Survey or should I go back to sleep?
                                                                                                               Bob Drury
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: donpearsall on October 13, 2015, 04:21:31 PM
Did I read that correctly? BLM will wait until 2018 to conduct another "study" to determine if the BSF is being depleted? Nothing will happen until then?
I hope Save the Salt responds to this "expert's" opinion.

Don
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: desotoman on October 13, 2015, 05:44:33 PM





By William White

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3014279-155/op-ed-speed-week-cancellation-does-not

 

First Published Oct 09 2015 01:36PM    •    Last Updated Oct 09 2015 01:36 pm

William White

Responding to the racing community's concerns, BLM and University of Utah geologists examined salt-crust exposures at mile posts 3 and 5 of Speed Week's 2015 proposed race course. During the July 15 examination, they observed that surface salt-crust stratum had thinned, become soft and slushy in some areas, and like scattered popcorn in others, exposing underlying thin gypsum stratum. However, when BLM augered bore holes adjacent to each mile post, they measured an additional 2 to 3 feet of salt thickness present beneath the thin, 0.5 to 1-inch thick gypsum stratum. These thicknesses are consistent with total salt-crust thicknesses measured from nearest bore holes drilled during BLM's 2003 salt-crust thickness study.


William White is a registered professional geologist (Idaho & Utah), and was BLM's physical scientist responsible for monitoring and assessing progress of the Salt Laydown Project from 1997 through 2007.

Did STS or ? have anyone present when these measurements were taken? Can we obtain the exact location or spot where these measurements were taken so we can hire someone to verify that the salt is actually that thick, and their measurements are in fact correct? Was there a video taken at the time of the measurement to prove what they say is in fact correct?

I want visual proof of the salts thickness, or someone from the racers side present when these measurements are taken for verification purposes.

Tom G.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: jh333 on October 13, 2015, 07:52:03 PM
Do any of you skeptics and nay sayers really think a Professional Engineer, College Professor, or anyone else would lie on a document that could so easily be debunked with just a 12volt drill and a auger attachment ? Come on folks let ditch the Black Helicopter stuff and look for facts that seem to be present in the report as written.

We all might not like what we read but lets at the very least wait until someone has done a follow up to the facts presented before we throw anyone, especially a PE with his or her butt on the line under any busses.

Any yes I will be first to yell BS if their facts are bogus.


Jorge Holland
Yuma, AZ
#777 - Just looking for a place to run !!!!!!
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 13, 2015, 08:25:25 PM
  Ah, that would be probably about 2019 when the 2018 report would be released.
  Also, the author is retired and I am quite sure his ass won't fall off while He is in his rocker..................  One Run, out.....................................
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on October 13, 2015, 09:22:28 PM
Okay, so does this mean the race track is sinking, and that Mayor Crawford is correct, that we're just dealing with a layer of goo that has washed down on top of the salt?  We're elevations of the altitude of the salt measured, and if so, what were the baselines?
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Stainless1 on October 13, 2015, 09:25:02 PM
JH333, ever go to court and watch professionals tell opposite opinions about the same set of facts?

Just because they have a degree does not ensure they have integrity... Think about lawyers... or any other person paid to take the facts and present the side of the folks that are paying them.  

Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 14, 2015, 12:21:51 AM
Do any of you skeptics and nay sayers really think a Professional Engineer, College Professor, or anyone else would lie on a document that could so easily be debunked with just a 12volt drill and a auger attachment ? Come on folks let ditch the Black Helicopter stuff and look for facts that seem to be present in the report as written.

We all might not like what we read but lets at the very least wait until someone has done a follow up to the facts presented before we throw anyone, especially a PE with his or her butt on the line under any busses.

Any yes I will be first to yell BS if their facts are bogus.


Jorge Holland
Yuma, AZ
#777 - Just looking for a place to run !!!!!!
What the hell do you think I did on Aug 3rd & found no more than 2 inches anywhere before getting into the brine mud/water table that is being pumped.
This "William White" is quoting the so called BLM test holes that supposedly produced 2 to 3 feet of salt that nobody has ever seen to my knowledge. I asked the BLM director (what ever his name is) for these locations at the Coalition meeting on the salt on Aug 24 & the answer I got was he didn't have that information with him. Are you $hitting me! Does he use a dial phone! Did they not take photographic evidence??
Has the Coalition or STS asked for this info??
Can somebody from STS or the Coalition give us an answer to this question??
In case you've been hiding under a rock Jorge, take a look at this.
  Sid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe8de-Zhb6Q
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: tauruck on October 14, 2015, 12:25:00 AM
I knew that was coming.

 :wink:
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: jh333 on October 14, 2015, 01:05:27 AM
Kiwi, that exactly the point. Take your butt out to where they say the salt is 3 feet thick drill a dam test hole and if there is not the salt they say then you can bitch like hell and I will bitch right along with you, but until you do the test yourself nothing you say will mean anything !
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 14, 2015, 01:55:13 AM
  Lets look at this from a different perspective.  The question comes to mind:  Is a professional geologist trained or educated in mathematical theory, physics, meteorology, or fluid dynamics to the point that their "theories" about salt loss due to (insert whatever you want here) can be proven (such as salt loss due to unverified tonnage removal by private industry) or can be accepted as fact by outsiders?
  Unless other professionals care to put their reputations on the line by challenging each others "findings", The public can easily be duped.
  This has happened in the very recent past in everything from medical research to "Black Holes" to religion to politics. Mistakes are made. Numbers are misunderstood. People lie, Professors lie, Priests lie, Politicians lie, Plumbers lie.  Why?  To make the rest of the World accept their falsehood's or to make their "higher-ups" or corporate stockholders happy.
  I am not calling anyone a liar here, I am only questioning the status quo of how these "findings" came about, what methods were used to corroborate these findings with outside research data by independent sources and sciences.
  When a government entity charged with the protection of public lands relies solely on "in house" findings, and being that said entity is under tremendous political and therefor financial pressure, I tend to wince when I read any "sanctioned" report.
  As the old Hippy Bumper Sticker read:  QUESTION AUTHORITY.
                                                                                             Bob Drury
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: SPARKY on October 14, 2015, 07:24:41 AM
777 are you living on ocean front property there in Yuma?

Who is or was your employer?
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Buickguy3 on October 14, 2015, 10:13:28 AM
   Just wondering where all of these core drilling samples from the Salt are being kept.
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_sample
    Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 14, 2015, 10:19:53 AM
Kiwi, that exactly the point. Take your butt out to where they say the salt is 3 feet thick drill a dam test hole and if there is not the salt they say then you can bitch like hell and I will bitch right along with you, but until you do the test yourself nothing you say will mean anything !
The head of the BLM couldn't tell me where this so called "magical" location was & I drilled a number of test holes adjacent to the course as they stated they had & you can see what I found. STS was even under the impression one of my test sites was a BLM site.
 It's a naturally formed lake bed that is consistent in depth with no more than a 1" variation over 7 miles of distance that I tested & that is on top of a brine mud/water table & you still believe there is three feet of this stuff!
Like Sparky said, you have your head buried in ocean front property in Arizona & you are entitled to your opinion from that location.
I'm calling a big fat BULL$HIT on the BLM claim to there being "2 to 3 feet" of salt in solid form anywhere near a course.
  Sid.
  
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 14, 2015, 10:37:25 AM
   Just wondering where all of these core drilling samples from the Salt are being kept.
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_sample
    Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Doug, the only place I could actually pull a sample up from was in the drain field between lands end & the dike. It had a consistency of clam chowder & 3ft compressed to about 18" when it came out. All other locations were too sloppy/thin to stay in the pipe when I pulled it up.
In this vid you can see what I'm talking about.
  Sid.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb3-AzddsTY
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on October 14, 2015, 10:46:14 AM
Part of the problem is that the flats remain so vast and changing that verification would be difficult without GPS and altitude verification.

But if the findings of both Sid and Richard White show this kind of disparity, the methods and accuracy need to be checked.

We've seen Sid's work on the test - but all we've seen from Mr. White is his written conclusions, apparently based on the same materials made public by Save-The-Salt (dashes included).  Mr. White's conclusions - notably that salt is under a gypsum layer - stand in contrast to Sid's evidence gathering.

I'm seeing a lack of controls in testing methods that needs to be addressed quickly, because if the tests are not repeatable, any conclusions will not be supported by science, and everyone will simply be chasing their tails.

Here's a question - Both salt and clays are evaporative deposits, but clay appears denser than salt, so in solution, salt should rise and clay, relative to salt, should fall out of solution, rather than percolate, as salt does.

So under what circumstances could salt be stratified below a strata of clay when both are in solution 6 months out of the year?

Sid was clearly unable to find salt under clay.


 
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Buickguy3 on October 14, 2015, 10:51:47 AM
  Sid, That's exactly what I meant. If they got 2-3 foot test samples in their core drills, then they would look like the core samples in the Wikipedia example. Also over the last 50 or so years of verification surely somebody has documented all of their testing and not just taken their word for it wouldn't you think?
   Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: BasementBorn on October 14, 2015, 11:45:18 AM
I feel like none of you have actually read the past reports. The definition of salt thickness is different between what we are talking about here and what is in the reports. The reports (one was written by William White so I am sure he knows how the samples were taken) show the total thickness to be 2-3ft however, it consists of at least 5 layers. 1 layer of halite that we race on. 1 layer of gypsum. 1 layer of hard cemented salt. Another layer of gypsum. Then 2-3ft of mush salt/mud mix down to the hard pan. Everything from Russ's measurements (of the top layer), Sid's measurements (also of the top layer), what the reports were for the cancelation all coincide with the reports and what William is saying. We are just using a different definition of salt thickness than they are which is where the problem is. No where in any of the reports does it say there was ever 2-3ft of completely solid salt.

One problem I see is the lease agreement says a third party (Brenda Bowen) will repeat the 2003 report which uses the same old definition and will likely come back with the same conclusion as the past reports that there is no problem.

Sample locations can be found in the reports and in Russ's spreadsheet. They all have coordinates shown. It is not a mystery.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 14, 2015, 01:05:13 PM
  So, as I asked in Reply number two, Where has 2 to three feet of salt gone in the last fifty years?  The paved road to Lands End has not been raised three feet in that time according to previous statements by many who have raced on the Salt since the sixties.  Why do we have (or had) less than seven miles of usable Salt and the inability to run Thrust powered vehicles such as those of Arfons, Breedlove, Noble and others?  Who stole it?
  You and I can read all the reports and findings by the BLM ad nauseam  but no where do I find a sensible answer to that simple question that has been asked thousands of times by Racers and Visitors alike.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: tauruck on October 14, 2015, 01:31:34 PM
You want reliable info?. Go with Sid's findings.
The guy is 100% genuine, a racer and the only one that took the time to do an investigation.

All the other scientific stuff does not relate to RACING.

Thanks Sid. I have no claim on the condition of the racing surface but if you say things are not cool I believe you. :cheers:
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 14, 2015, 01:52:15 PM
I'll contact Russ to see if I can get the locations & I will go back & test again & this time I will go down to 6ft.
My seven mile (as I called it) was a STS location.
Does anybody know if the salt is still under water right now?
  Sid.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: BasementBorn on October 14, 2015, 02:04:13 PM
Sid, just so you know, I am not trying to discount anything you are saying. I am just trying to give some insight on why William is saying there is 2-3 feet of salt out there. Personally, I think there are fatal flaws in the way they measured it but they discounted the 1970 studies which use the definition of hard salt instead of the definition they are using now. It gives a very deceiving result which we need to fix in the next study. Unfortunately per their agreement they only have to compare to the 2003 study which uses the unfavorable definition.

The coordinates for Russ's locations can be found here http://www.savethesalt.org/resources.html  look under the documents heading, it is the salt crust measurements link.

Here is the appendix showing the locations of the BLM's locations http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.42614.File.dat/UGA2006_White&Terrazas%20Appendices.pdf

Here is the report that describes the methods they used to make the measurements http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.87663.File.dat/UGA2006_White&Terrazas.pdf
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: QikNip on October 14, 2015, 02:25:33 PM
I was sure Hillary's emails would shed some honest light on this topic  :-D :dhorse:
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on October 14, 2015, 03:20:05 PM
Bob, let's run with the "official" evidence as offered, and assume the salt is still there, somehow sequestered under a layer of clay and gypsum.

What are the forces that are causing it to stratify in a manner that causes apparent loss of surface area?  Are these observations consistent with geological history?  If Intrepid is causing the problem, what precisely is happening, and what, if anything, can be done to restratify the halite layer we race on?

And if the salt is still there, after a year an a half of extraordinary rainfall, why is it not percolating back to the surface as it did after '82-83?

I'm looking for an understanding of the geology that seems to be masked rather than illuminated by the reading material the Utah Alliance is offering up.

But after reading those materials, it's my sense that STS's three position checklist - racing, mining, and reclamation - is going to prove to be incompatible at best.  If the studies indicate no appreciable loss of salt, you've lost any political support and enforcement authority.  If laydown is showing little if any improvement, then, of course, it's a "failed policy", which can no longer be supported.

Imagine the political ad - possibly funded by share holders of Intrepid - berating a politician for supporting "a failed environmental policy of returning salt to the salt flats", and "threatening hundreds of family supporting jobs in Utah".  That's the political implications of this.  
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Finallygotit on October 14, 2015, 03:47:48 PM
Subscribing
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 14, 2015, 04:43:33 PM
Sid, just so you know, I am not trying to discount anything you are saying. I am just trying to give some insight on why William is saying there is 2-3 feet of salt out there. Personally, I think there are fatal flaws in the way they measured it but they discounted the 1970 studies which use the definition of hard salt instead of the definition they are using now. It gives a very deceiving result which we need to fix in the next study. Unfortunately per their agreement they only have to compare to the 2003 study which uses the unfavorable definition.

The coordinates for Russ's locations can be found here http://www.savethesalt.org/resources.html  look under the documents heading, it is the salt crust measurements link.

Here is the appendix showing the locations of the BLM's locations http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.42614.File.dat/UGA2006_White&Terrazas%20Appendices.pdf

Here is the report that describes the methods they used to make the measurements http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.87663.File.dat/UGA2006_White&Terrazas.pdf
Thanks for that. Theres only so many hours in a day & just not enough of them with a road service business, building a streamliner & preparing for winter in the Rockies. I sent Russ an email so he'll probably point me to the same place.
Anybody know if there is water on the salt now or if it's run off to Intrepid??
  Sid.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Ron Gibson on October 14, 2015, 04:58:26 PM
If all the salt is still there on the BSF (no appreciable loss according to numerous studies), where did the huge piles on Intrepid's property, lots of 100 car trainloads sold and transported over the years, and feet thick rock hard salt in the evaporation ponds come from?
The crust (that is the part on top of everything else for those that can't seem to understand how it used to be) used to be feet thick by itself, without getting into the lower layers. What was in the lower layers of gypsum wasn't cared about as there was no way to get to it without heavy equipment.
Somewhere there should be core samples from way in the past unless they have mysteriously disappeared.
Good luck Sid.

Ron
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: BasementBorn on October 14, 2015, 06:18:48 PM
Sid, just so you know, I am not trying to discount anything you are saying. I am just trying to give some insight on why William is saying there is 2-3 feet of salt out there. Personally, I think there are fatal flaws in the way they measured it but they discounted the 1970 studies which use the definition of hard salt instead of the definition they are using now. It gives a very deceiving result which we need to fix in the next study. Unfortunately per their agreement they only have to compare to the 2003 study which uses the unfavorable definition.

The coordinates for Russ's locations can be found here http://www.savethesalt.org/resources.html  look under the documents heading, it is the salt crust measurements link.

Here is the appendix showing the locations of the BLM's locations http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.42614.File.dat/UGA2006_White&Terrazas%20Appendices.pdf

Here is the report that describes the methods they used to make the measurements http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.87663.File.dat/UGA2006_White&Terrazas.pdf
Thanks for that. Theres only so many hours in a day & just not enough of them with a road service business, building a streamliner & preparing for winter in the Rockies. I sent Russ an email so he'll probably point me to the same place.
Anybody know if there is water on the salt now or if it's run off to Intrepid??
  Sid.

No Problem. I am in the same spot, too much paying engineering work going on to get enough time to really focus on this right now. What I want to do is put together some kind of spread sheet to really compare all of the studies to date so we can get a real apples to apples comparison of everything. I am not disputing that there was feet of hard salt to race on 50 years ago and that it has gone somewhere, I just want to make some kind of thickness time line that we can use to really compare rather than just using the latest study like I suspect will be done with this current study. If we use their data to show that there has been an decrease in the thickness then we can fight back when it comes time to discuss the new study and conditions moving forward. I think that a time line could in fact say that the pump back laydown project is working to maintain the current thickness but work still needs to be done to rebuild.

If you are planning on going back out to make measurements I would coordinate with Russ for sure. If you would be open to it, I would like to come out with you to help with the measurements. I have messaged back and forth with both Russ and Eric about it but haven't been able to connect with them in person yet.

I have two theories on the stratifying of the layers. 1) The layers have always been there just further down in the salt surface so it wasn't an issue at the time or 2) the layers of gypsum (mud) are sort of like the rings on a tree that show times when heavy rainfall like has happened the last two years brought mud down from the hills that hasn't completely settled out to the bottom yet. In my opinion either way shows that the salt has gone away. If #1 is correct, the salt went through the mud layers and ended up in the collection ditches. If #2 is correct, I think the mud layers may have gotten closer together also due to the brine ending up in the ditch.

I still think that the STS checklist is the only way to go about it, the mining methods just need to be modified to make it all happen. I am in no way denying that the salt ended up at the mine throughout the years. But the thickness studies, at least in my mind so far, show that the most destructive was between about the 1950s to 1990s when instead of pumping back the solar ponds' salt they were ripping it with a bull dozer and either stockpiling it or selling it by the trainload. It is a process that the mine would have to go through to free up room in their ponds in order to operate for the last 50 or so years. From the 1990s on, the salt seems to be more or less (less crust but sameish total thickness) the same thickness. But this also leads me to believe that the last two years of heavy down pour have lead to the conditions we are seeing now, which aligns with what we have heard form the "official" sources.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 14, 2015, 10:14:01 PM
  Basement, Way back on August 7th, I suggested (post # 742, Poor Salt Conditions) that a temporary or possibly permanent dike be erected around our entire racing area.  This would be accomplished using portable concrete Freeway barriers which could easily be sealed with bitumen asphalt roofing material between each barrier, and removed at any time.
  If the BLM was forced (er... I mean politely asked) to return the millions (?) of tons of "crusted" salt from the south side of the freeway to the diked enclosure (I neither know how or care) would that not be replacing the missing Crust? 
  Even if it was two to three inches, would that replaced "crust" not want to stay on the surface if the pumping TO Intrepid were halted or moved beyond the enclosed area by a few miles or restricted to the south side of I-80?
  I don't have a clue as to how efficient a dike would be so I am asking your and anyone else's opinion on this.
  This is only a hypothetical question and I realize the logistics and cost would be astronomical but as far as I can understand, that missing crust laid in place for thousands and thousands of years undisturbed until pumping began.
                                                                               Bob
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: dw230 on October 14, 2015, 10:20:32 PM
About 6 PM local Wendover time I received a phone call from Tom Walsh who was standing at lands end. Tom and Steve Moal were on the return trip from Florida and overnighted in Wendover.

Anyway, Tom reports standing water side to side, end to end. No wind, beautiful weather, lovely sunset. Almost everything needed to run race cars and bikes.

DW
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on October 14, 2015, 11:05:18 PM
I hope they were driving something interesting.

Mike
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: BasementBorn on October 14, 2015, 11:12:50 PM
Bob, I have suggested some form of a dike as well. My thought was the dike would be dirt to keep costs down but I also know that it could cause issues like we are seeing with dirt coming off of the existing dikes. The dike would go from about the east end of the existing soludro dike straight to floating mountain. That would cut off the leases and collection ditches north of I-80 from the BSF while still leaving the ditches that cross near the corner of the access road for pumping back in the winter months. This wouldn't be a BLM fix, just a change in what they are requiring Intrepid to do. Intrepid would foot the bill and it would fit in to their existing budget. I think it would be a possible solution to at least look in to. I think the Saludro dike has served as a test subject  for a number of years, the salt within the dike appears to be thick and solid but I don't have any info on the depth. Getting data for the area within the dike may be problematic as it is technically private property.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 15, 2015, 02:09:47 AM
  Gabe,  Finding dirt may be a problem although out around Oasis it might be easier.
  I have probably told this story before but about ten years ago the site where the future LSR Museum is slated to be built was being marketed as a New Community of Modular Homes with all sorts of flags and markers and of course a sign.
  As we were coming in from the Salt Flats some poor bastard was trying to dig a ditch for utilities or whatever.  His backhoe bucket was full of that god awfull yellow
muck and He was trying to fling it out of the bucket but it wasn't going anywhere!  It was like the booger from Hell... no wait, that's Stainless...........
                                                                                                          One Run, out............................. :-D :roll: :wink:
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on October 15, 2015, 02:39:03 AM
I think the problem with a concrete dike would be that the salt is essentially floating over the clay.  Unless you were to anchor it with footings through the salt, through the clay, and into the substrate, it would likely shift and blow out in short order.

The present dike isn't attempting to contain the water that flows out of the mountains - rather, it diverts it.

Erosion control on the west end to prevent silt from washing out onto the pan would, I think, be helpful in the long run.  

An earthen dike would be more flexible and cheaper, and easier to maintain, but if the BLM eventually decrees that there actually is a science based, actionable problem, it's likely to be a holistic approach they'll want to pursue, correcting the entire BSF - not just the race course.

Being honest with ourselves, STS and most of us racers are looking for the restoration of the racing surface at Bonneville. I'm a bit concerned about the study due in 2018, because that research is likely to have a broader focus, and it might not support our demands.  
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 15, 2015, 05:32:30 AM
About 6 PM local Wendover time I received a phone call from Tom Walsh who was standing at lands end. Tom and Steve Moal were on the return trip from Florida and overnighted in Wendover.

Anyway, Tom reports standing water side to side, end to end. No wind, beautiful weather, lovely sunset. Almost everything needed to run race cars and bikes.

DW
Thanks Dan. Looks like it might take a while for that to flow over to the other side of the freeway.
I have a story about the dyke told to me by Russ. Later! Right now I need sleep.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: mtkawboy on October 15, 2015, 12:24:00 PM
On this forum the mayor told me that he could take me to where there was 3 ft of salt on the racing surface so just ask him. I'm not trying to bad mouth the man but he did state that. I know he has a fine line to walk in this deal
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: mtkawboy on October 15, 2015, 12:29:50 PM
I was going to find the reply to my post from the mayor but everything after 2012 is gone on my messages
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: dw230 on October 15, 2015, 12:55:11 PM
AS an addition to my post from yesterday these photos are from Tom Walsh. I hope they attach OK.

Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: desotoman on October 15, 2015, 06:43:17 PM
I'll contact Russ to see if I can get the locations & I will go back & test again & this time I will go down to 6ft.
My seven mile (as I called it) was a STS location.
Does anybody know if the salt is still under water right now?
  Sid.


Sid,

If you are willing to go back out and take new measurements, would you be able to make a video of your drilling and results? If you could, I would gladly contribute $100 towards your time and effort.

Reason? I want something visual so that I, and everyone else, can see the drilling preformed and the results. If so just tell me where to send the money. I appreciate your efforts.

Tom G.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: donpearsall on October 15, 2015, 06:53:08 PM
This is only an empirical observation and is not conclusive by any means, but I have always wondered why there is such a steep drop-off at lands end. Was the road originally built so that it was level with the salt, and then the salt level dropped while the road did not? That makes the lands-end road kind of a measuring stick.

I know that many times salt had to be brought in to fill in the deep drop off so vehicles could get on and off the salt. Does anyone have photos of lands-end from many years ago? That could be additional evidence of salt disappearance.

Don
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: typo41 on October 15, 2015, 07:29:52 PM
Working with a Public Works Department with a Traffic Department and looking at plans and designs. The road we call Lands Ends would have been built to be above water table and flood levels (100 and 500 years) so yes it was above the Salt.
Again I am not an Engineer. I cant even spell it.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Stan Back on October 15, 2015, 07:31:51 PM
The it is okay, it's the can't that's not.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 15, 2015, 07:35:42 PM
  Don, Bruce Geisler who raced at Bonneville from the early or mid 60's told me that the paved roads end hasn't changed in height and that it used to be pretty much even driving onto the Salt.  How accurate that statement is I cannot verify, but I have heard and read similar statements from several others during my twenty years on the Salt.
                                                                                                               One Run Bob, out.......................................................
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: BasementBorn on October 15, 2015, 08:58:08 PM
Don, If you haven't already, take a look at the Executive Summary Russ Eyers did this year: http://static1.squarespace.com/static/55e33a61e4b0eea3c34fcb83/t/55f05d76e4b083dafc8945a4/1441815926986/0-+BSF+2015+Meastrip+exsum+integrated.pdf
He uses a culvert on the access road to demonstrate exactly what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 15, 2015, 11:52:10 PM
If the water level goes down enough I will go back again & sample with longer equipment & If anybody wants to join me they are welcome to do so. PM me your email & I'll get back to you.
 I got an email from Russ tonight & he wants to come up again too.
I'm not looking to re-engineer the place or solve the world's problems here, just to show the real truth of what is or in this case what isn't there. That's what started me down this road.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 16, 2015, 12:39:58 AM
  Thank's for all you are doing Sid.  It is guys like You and Russ that show Us peons can make a difference.................... :cheers: :cheers:
                                                                      Bob
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Dakin Engineering on October 16, 2015, 10:16:15 AM
What court has oversight on BLM contracts?

My Senator needs specifics.

Sam
#6062


Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: BasementBorn on October 16, 2015, 06:27:17 PM
That one I am not sure. May be a question for STS or the Utah Coalition.

I do know that the Environmental Assessment decision has a protest/appeal section but it also states that it only applies for 30days after the decision is made which is long past. If it helps at all the decision is here: http://static1.squarespace.com/static/55e33a61e4b0eea3c34fcb83/t/55e71ac8e4b048d3ac2f6a36/1441209032826/Intrepid+Potash+Mine+and+Reclamation+Plan.pdf

I'll see if I can dig anything up though. You would think there would be someone overseeing the mining contracts.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: SPARKY on October 16, 2015, 09:55:41 PM
depends who is suing them---if it were the State of Utah---the SCOUS

If it was Toole County suing the Govt I am pretty sure it is The Court of Claims which is in DC.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Harold Bettes on October 17, 2015, 01:45:47 AM
Hey Folks,

Look and read carefully on the approval that the BLM signed in 2012 - It lists the general location as WEST of Wendover.......duh. Does that perhaps it mean this document is null and void????? :-o

Yeah I know, probably wishful thinking but gotta watch those i and t details. :roll:

Pretty much those folks walk like an Egyptian with both hands held out going and coming! :dhorse:

I will also be at the AETC and PRI gatherings and look forward to talking a bit about the wonderful deal our government has dealt us all on the flats and beyond. :lol:

Regards to All,
 :-)
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 17, 2015, 07:39:37 AM
  Thank's for all you are doing Sid.  It is guys like You and Russ that show Us peons can make a difference.................... :cheers: :cheers:
                                                                      Bob
Thanks Bob, I'm proud to be called a peeon. The "real people world" is where I fit.
I'm not trying to start another "coalition" here or a one man crusade, I just want to see the real picture put out there to back up all the noise we're making because we are being portrayed as a bunch of spoiled brat racers that don't know what the hell we're talking about & that a national heritage is just having a little weather issue. We spend more time on the salt & know it like no theoretical engineer that visits it five times in five years could ever know it. We've been married to this place for years & our love for it has not wained.
Close door meetings with self serving public servants is not enough in my opinion, we need an outraged public to embarrass the $hit out of these turkey's to get their focus away from the size of their retirement fund.   
The BLM has lost sight of the main reason they were set up for, manage & protect public land's!! :? Maybe an air strike is in order. :evil:
This is the communication age, we need to communicate here!!
  Sid.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: SPARKY on October 17, 2015, 07:47:11 AM
Hear Ye Hear Ye    :cheers: 
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: tauruck on October 17, 2015, 09:19:30 PM
What we have here is a failure to communicate!.
Keep shaking the bush Sid. :wink:

Seriously, thanks again for being pro active. :cheers:
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Buickguy3 on October 17, 2015, 10:29:56 PM
Sid,
  I'll show up when yu give the word. Meet you at Carmen's. Anybody else game for a trip to the Salt? [What's left of it].

     Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: tauruck on October 17, 2015, 10:33:05 PM
Wish I could join you guys but maybe I should stick to the images I have for now. :cry:
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 18, 2015, 03:25:42 PM
Sid,
  I'll show up when yu give the word. Meet you at Carmen's. Anybody else game for a trip to the Salt? [What's left of it].

     Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

PM'd
  Sid.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: manta22 on October 18, 2015, 04:31:36 PM
"West of Wendover" ????  :? :? :? :?   Woa- what?


Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 21, 2015, 01:10:59 PM
  It's funny how things happen sometimes.
  A few posts back We were discussing How much the Salt surface had lowered at the End of The Road.
  Hooley (Huffman) just posted on Facebook a link to a Mickey Thompson video (Macs Motor City Garage.com) that shows the Challenger Streamliner being towed out onto the Salt and OFF THE END OF THE ROAD ITSELF!!  This would have been in the Early 1960's about when the mining began.
  It appears to be less than a one foot drop off as the open trailer doesn't appear fazed at all by the dip.
  I was so excited that I shut it off to post this!  Now I can go back and watch the whole thing.
                                                                                            One Run, out.................................................
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: jdincau on October 21, 2015, 01:16:54 PM
Different end of different road
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 21, 2015, 01:49:40 PM
  J.D.  Tell us more.  I am as interested as anyone about getting my "facts" straight.  I had no idea there was more than one road.
  Hope to see all of Us on the salt again.................  Bob :cheers:
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: SPARKY on October 21, 2015, 04:33:08 PM
pre I-80 completion  the interstate was not completed when I was there in 69
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: MAYOMAN on October 21, 2015, 05:02:58 PM
US-40 was still the active highway in 1970. As I recall, I-80 was open in 1971 when we brought the Honda Hawk out in September. However, considerable debris from the highway construction had apparently drifted out onto the International Course over the 1970-1971 winter, leaving a wavy surface after the dried mud blew away in the summer. This gave us fits, losing traction and over-revving the engines, causing drive chain and valve damage. Was anybody there for the SCTA meet that summer?
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: jdincau on October 21, 2015, 05:21:41 PM
I started in 1962 and untill 1970 the access was directly off the old highway 40, now a frontage road just south of the interstate. I didn't race 1971 through 1975 so I don't know how the transition worked.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Ron Gibson on October 21, 2015, 06:32:55 PM
The first time I went in 74 when I parked my double bottoms at the end of the road there was not nearly the drop off to the salt level there is now. The drop off was to salt, not 100 yards of mud to get to salt as the last several years when we could race. I would say it would at least be as much as the culvert post is showing. I don't think I have any pictures from then that would show anything.

Ron
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Bob Drury on October 21, 2015, 07:58:18 PM
  Thanx for the reply's guys, I had assumed I-80 was the Highway since day one.............
  p.s. watch that M/T video.  It is really cool.       Bob
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: thundersalt on October 26, 2015, 03:31:58 PM
End of the road 1980
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: JR'S PAPA on October 26, 2015, 11:30:25 PM
My dad took me and the family out to see Mickey Thompson run in '60, when he ran 406 mph. I was 13 and vividly remember the total experience. There were not very many "civilians" spectating on the Salt. We were East of the course and it seemed much closer than spectators are allowed today. As the time got close to Mickey's run, dad told us to try to get near our car as possible, just in case something went wrong. Then I recall hearing  "...here he comes". I saw the salt spray before I saw the car. The roar was nothing I had ever heard before and as he was right in front of our car the blue blur seemed to momentarily stand still. After the run we waited in the pits for what seemed a long time. We saw many other teams, motorcycles and cars. Some guys were either putting a second engine in or taking it out of "The Mickey Mouse Challenger", a Crosley sedan, I think.

I have very fond memories of Mickey returning to the pits and the crew taking the body panels from the Challenger. He was busy but came over and introduced himself to me and my dad. He spent what seems like a long tome explaining, and answering every question an annoying kid could ask. He made a fan for life.  (Funny, 20 years later, Al Teague.. did the very same thing with my son, and another generation of admirers was born.) My old man had been at the Flats when Eyston and Cobb had run in the '30s, and was the first to the scene when Easton wrapped his tire around the axle. He was on his Harley, and beat the emergency crew to the car.

Anyway, the trip to the Salt Flats took 3 hours from Salt Lake City on U.S.40. We drove right off the highway and paid no fee to watch. The Salt was so hot and so very white. Last year I watched and cheered on Danny Thompson with my grandson. I re-met and introduced myself to Danny's dear mother and told her I was there when she drove the Pontiac station wagon into the pits.

I have considerable memories invested in the SALT FLATS and we must keep this great part of our collective national heritage available to pass on to my grandson's kids.
Title: Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
Post by: Jack Gifford on October 27, 2015, 02:03:57 AM
I envy you those experiences JR's PAPA! Mickey's been my idol also for that long, but only through print media and a few phone conversations in the eighties.