Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Safety => Topic started by: distributorguy on June 15, 2015, 04:55:57 PM
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What chemical is everyone using for fire suppression in car? Halon? PKP? Different for interior versus engine bay? :?
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Sorry I posted this earlier int he wrong area.
What chemical is everyone using for fire suppression in car? Halon? PKP? Different for interior versus engine bay? :?
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I've been using DuPont FE-36, 2 5lb bottles, one for the engine, one for the passenger compartment.
Actually - and gratefully - I HAVEN'T been using it.
You may need more, depending on the class record for the Datsun. If it's over 200 mph, you'll need additional suppression agent for the driver's compartment.
The rule is 3Q in the book.
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I gave this quite a bit of thought before I built my '34 Ford C Gas Roadster. I opted for Du Pont FE-36 in cockpit, and Firefox foam in engine bay. Reasoning, in case you have an accidental discharge in cockpit, you don't have a mess. But most importantly, with foam in the engine bay, if you put a rod out thru the block, you are going to have a fair amount of oil going on to hot headers. If using Halon in engine bay, it will put out the fire but once discharged, fire may reignite. The foam not only puts out fire but quenches headers too.
John
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We learned about Firefox the hard way this year. Take the bottles out of the car and store them in a "non-freezing" environment. The only warning any where is one that says: operating temperature 20 deg.- 140 deg. [I think]. Nowhere on the bottle or instructions does it say a simple: "Caution, Avoid placing the bottles in a freezing environment". We got a $300 lesson. Our Halon Firebottle system was fine. Our fault. Just be aware.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: [Ya, we still have beer money].
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One of our team members just bought a 10 lb halon system. Fast and hopefully effective, legal in his Chump and WRL cars, and best yet I didn't have to pay for it!
My understanding is that once the system is installed, we can always change chemicals and the nozzles stay the same.
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Distributorguy, that's not how I remember it. I had to change nozzles. I don't recall the details at the moment but someone will chime in. :cheers: Wayno
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The nozzles are different for gas VS liquid systems, also the liquid systems require the nozzles be on a continuous loop back to the bottle to avoid pressure drop at the farthest one.
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... If using Halon in engine bay, it will put out the fire but once discharged, fire may reignite...
Thanks for the heads-up, hadn't thought about that. I'm a fan of Halon, from my experiences in tractor pulling- but there wasn't any bodywork involved.
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I gave this quite a bit of thought before I built my '34 Ford C Gas Roadster. I opted for Du Pont FE-36 in cockpit, and Firefox foam in engine bay. Reasoning, in case you have an accidental discharge in cockpit, you don't have a mess. But most importantly, with foam in the engine bay, if you put a rod out thru the block, you are going to have a fair amount of oil going on to hot headers. If using Halon in engine bay, it will put out the fire but once discharged, fire may reignite. The foam not only puts out fire but quenches headers too.
John
I too, have had the very negative experience of an engine bay fire re-igniting after the Halon bottle was empty . . . . .
Halon does not cool off HOT parts. But CO2 does, as do other chemicals.
Just my 2 cents.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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I honestly wasn't aware CO2 was an option. I have the perfect bottle of that attached to my shop fridge, and no one should need it while I'm gone racing, right???
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CO2 is an option outside the drivers compartment
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I guess we can run a dual system then. Sounds like a feasible option, safety third as Mike Rowe would say?
Thank you all for the input!!!
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I just met with the safecraft people. (They are close by to my house and are very nice) I told him that I have a full interior car, with a surge tank and pumps in the hatch.
He suggested a single 10 lb bottle of their FE36 agent, with one nozzle in the back by the surge tank, one on the dash by the driver and then two nozzles in the engine bay...
All of which run by a pull lever.
What's everyone think?
Car is 2.5l Subaru Sti hatchback, running a E-85 (or e-90 ignite), and I'm hoping to make 186 mph in the standing half mile and 205 in the standing Mile.
I'm not looking to be classed in anything. This is for self gratification. The car will the. Become my dedicated track day car.
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A pull handle can be tough to find if all hell breaks loose, make sure you put them where you can find them, on fire, upside down in a panic with your gloves on is a whole different world.
This is why I prefer push type & I've been on fire twice.
Sid.
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I just met with the safecraft people. (They are close by to my house and are very nice) I told him that I have a full interior car, with a surge tank and pumps in the hatch.
He suggested a single 10 lb bottle of their FE36 agent, with one nozzle in the back by the surge tank, one on the dash by the driver and then two nozzles in the engine bay...
All of which run by a pull lever.
What's everyone think?
Car is 2.5l Subaru Sti hatchback, running a E-85 (or e-90 ignite), and I'm hoping to make 186 mph in the standing half mile and 205 in the standing Mile.
I'm not looking to be classed in anything. This is for self gratification. The car will the. Become my dedicated track day car.
My 2 cents:
I run a 10 lbs automatic bottle of FE-36 under the deck lid. I figure I could be on fire for a while before I might notice a truck fire up front. FireBottle makes my system. I run two 10lbs one for the engine/turbo/carb and one split between the driver and the rear decklid. My discharge nozzles in the car are two by my feet and one that points towards my hands. I know 30 lbs is a lot of fire agent but I figure I need the weight and if the chute and brakes burn up I am in for a long coast down.
Now with that said, and because we have had so much downtime with our Salt issues. I have been rethinking the driver's compartment and may switch to the foam based system for the inside of the car. I have read a lot about FE-36 and what could happen if you are stuck in a car with a lot of FE-36 discharging and limited ventilation. I plan on calling a few people in the know when I get to the decision point.
Check with Joe Timney at Delaware Chassis Works. Joe has the systems, more importantly the Land Racing expertise to help you. You can also call Nick at Safety Systems (FireBottle) in Fort Myers, Fl. Nick knows his system well.
BR
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Can't get a better endorsement for a type of system than being engulfed twice! The safecraft guy said that the push system was a little less reliable and or install friendly (I can't remember if it was a complication issue or what) but I will relook into the push button!!
As for the number of nozzles and size tank for my program,
Any concernes or recommendations?
I will call nick too! Can't hurt to get another companies views!
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I just talked to somebody at fire bottle, no idea their name, but nick wasn't there, and he was pushing the pull cable and 3 nozzles total and 10lb of Fe 36 and said it didn't matter where the in cab or engine bay nozzle
Was because it would fog the whole place out... :|
Yeah...
So anyways...off to call the othe guys you mentioned for better info!!!! :cheers:
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Push or pull if the car is in a violent roll you probably are pushing or pulling until it stops crashing. I have not seen remote push systems although they may be out there. The pull systems offer the option of placing the bottles in parts of the car where a push system cannot be reached. I think you are fine with either push or pull.
I used to sell firebottle and I know Don the owner. He pioneered the in car remote fire system. However, the down side of Firebottle is they have a proprietary diaphragm that only firebottle can refill your system with Fe36. That can be troublesome if you don't carry spares. I found out the hard way in 2011. I pulled both handles in a small incident. I had never been in a vehicle fire before... Heck, saw the flash and pulled handles. Next... hopefully not, I will wait a few seconds to see if there is a fire of just a flash! An expensive lesson but one I will remember. Then waited two days while two bottles we overnighted to Wendover. The shipping was as much as the spare bottles. I know Joe Timney sells a good system too and he might be around some of the events or at least if others have his system then there may be a spare bottle in a trailer if you need one.
Buy what you are comfortable with and hope you race your whole career and not us it!
BR
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The one good thing about safecraft is they are right down the street.
Knowing my luck, I'd discharge the bottles by accident and would need a quick refill!
Where do you have your nozzles and how many if you don't mind me asking?
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Accidental discharge...I have done that too.
Safe Craft is the way to go then. Because even if you do not discharge they still need re-certification every 2 years. So if you live near the supplier it can be done without shipping which is expensive because the charged bottles are considered hazardous.
I have two nozzles on each side of the oil pan and in or so back from the front of the pan. They are pointed toward the back of the engine but not parallel with the pan rail. I have one nozzle pointed towards the hot side of my single turbo which is mounted on the front of the engine so the nozzle is about center of the radiator pointing at the turbo. I figure after 90 seconds of running wide open that turbo is a major source of ignition and re-ignition. The fourth nozzle is orificed down and points at the base of the front of the carburetor. I think the recommendation is three nozzles for a 10 lbs bottle. The carb bottle is plumbed to the interior bottle which is 10 lbs also. The trunk bottle is 10 lbs and has a heat bulb and discharges at a certain temp.
BR
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^^^^thank you!!!
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OK, so I have two Fire Fox bottles each with tags saying 8 lbs 6 oz of charge weight an 3 lbs 6 oz of discharge weight. Which of these two values meets the 5 pound rule?
John
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I'll guess that 8 lb 6 oz is the total weight full and the 3 lb 6 oz is the empty bottle weight. 8 lbs 6 oz minus 3 lbs 6 oz = 5 lbs. Voila!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Makes perfect sense, Neil. Thanks.
John