Landracing Forum
Volkswagen L S R => Volkswagen L S R => Topic started by: BurtonBrown on May 30, 2015, 02:40:09 PM
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Hey folks,
I am exploring the opion of putting a Jetta TDI 2L in my Streamliner.
A couple questions:
1) Whats the best engine to start out with?
2) anybody know what kind of HP and torque they can make?
3) Anyone interested in collaborating on a project or being the tuner?
The current record at Bonneville I believe is 146.....kinda soft I would think. The 2L NA gas record we are currently going after is 260 :-D
Shoot me a message if you have any answers to the above
Thanks
Burton
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I have a 2013 TDI that had its ECU flashed to produce about 165hp and 290ftlbs with no mechanical changes - and kept its 50mpg on the highway. One of the best tuners might be Malone Tuning - Google him, he might be interested in a collaboration, and will certainly tell you a lot about the possibilities and prospects. 146 for a 2L diesel streamliner seems within reach? good luck, Dean
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Dean,
Yes I have a 2010 TDI Cup edition (6 speed) also. Love it. It has some work done to it Exhaust and AirBox but dont know if the guy I bought it from did anything with the ECU, but it is rather quick and most people that ride in it are impressed. I get over 50 on the highway yet as well.
Ive heard of them and I will see if he is interested.
Thanks
Burton.
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Just as a point of reference, we are running in H/DT (1.5L VW engine in a Dodge Rampage). We ran 135.003 at Bonneville last year with 167 HP at the wheels.
Since then, we have increased the fuel and turbo boost. My estimate is that we are around 200HP right now. This past weekend, we ran 135.6x at The Ohio Mile. I think that with our current setup, we should be able to run about 145 mph at Bonneville. That's in a diesel truck, with 1.5L displacement. In a streamliner, it's anyone's guess how fast it would go.
We are also building a G-class engine to run in the same truck. The plan is for the G class engine to make on the high side of 400 HP. It will be a de-stroked Mercedes OM604 engine. (16V diesel displacing about 199x cc's). That kind of power should put any decent streamliner into "Red Hat" territory.
I had been looking into TDI's to build for G/DT, but the MB diesel engines have a more solid foundation for making big power, and there are plenty of "tuners" in Europe who make this kind of power (100HP per cylinder) with MB diesels.
Feel free to ask any questions that I might be able to help with.
Steve.
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If you are looking for a partner, I'm all ears, and may be able to provide some of the needed "hardware" to go fast with a small diesel engine.
How fast do you think your liner would go with a 200HP 1.5L diesel?
Steve.
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Forgive my ignorance, but do you have pics of your 'liner? I may have seen it in a build thread, but my ability to keep track of people and their vehicles is not great.
Steve.
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Here it is Steve.
https://www.google.com/search?q=burton+brown+streamliner&rlz=1C1OPRB_enUS639US639&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=605&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=dEN3VZKjDtPaoASxy4K4Cg&ved=0CB0QsAQ
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That's a very slick looking 'liner. :-o
It would be VERY fast, even with a 1.5L diesel.
Current H/DS record is slower than the H/DT record (just for reference sake).
Steve.
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Hey Steve,
Sorry I didnt answer have been working lots to go play and forget I post stuff like this....
Anyway Im at Elmo getting my Rookie stuff this weekend. Shoot me an e-mail to burtonb07@gmail.com
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Best of luck at Elmo. :cheers:
I'll be in touch - heading out for a bike ride right now.
Steve
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My $.02:
The Volkswagen Common Rail TDI two liter inline four released in the 2009 Jetta in the U.S. is plentiful and produces 140 HP/236 TQ in stock form. It has a nice 16 valve layout and over 20,000 PSI injection pressures. Just eliminating the insanely complex US 'Bin 5' emissions system allows it to produce 170 HP in European form. The U.S. Engine has no fewer than 7 (!) electronic throttles and 3 catalysts. Just paring the engine down to its basic form, then replacing the microscopic stock turbocharger and plumbing with a compound turbo setup, one could expect 300-400 HP, depending on the resources available for electronics tuning and injector upgrading. If the SCTA had a category specifically for diesel production cars, I'm confident our Passat could easily make 190 mph with this engine without much difficulty.
Abe
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Sorry for the delay in responding. I'm still at a trade show right now, will be back home tonight, and back in the office Monday.
Enjoy your Father's Day weekend, guys.
Steve.
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Considering the cost and complexity of buying/pairing down/modifying a CR TDI, you may want to look at the A4/B5 TDI family... No DFP, less electronics, and still very capable of making big power. An old Navy buddy turned a stock '03 TDI Jetta into 60+mpg, 300hp/430ft lb. on the (relative) cheap. Different fuel maps/boost settings were easily interchanged depending on desired conditions. Think he used Malone or APR.
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Ok Gentlemen,
Thanks for all the info. what I was looking at (and was silly not to come out and say it) I assume the older 1.9-2L TDI's are two valve and the newer ones (2009+up?) are 4 valve? Wondering if either one might be better with port work thus my question which one would be smarter to start with?
Redhotracing can you put me in touch with your Navy Buddy? I happen to have an 02 Jetta Donor engine for free....
vwpsycho if you can get in touch of me too that would be great....
Yes I think if a guy can make close to 400HP one should be able to go close to 300MPH in a liner.... Not saying mine will, but if we copied someones body maybe we could get close.... I think the record is 147 :-D The 3L record is 199. How about a 3L 5 cyl Mercedes engine? Sounds like a power plant to get into the 2 club waiting to happen?
Either way a 2L or 3L should be over the 200MPH mark....
Could be a Kiwi friend could help me out :-)
For now just Diesel dreams.... :mrgreen:
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I think I could speak 5 cylinder German, how hard could it be! :-D
Sid.
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A 3L Mercedes OM606 (4 valve per cyl), with a modified OM603 injection pump (mechanical pump) and a matched turbo can make a relatively easy 600HP. The "rule of thumb" for the MB OM60x series engines is 100HP per hole.
The guys I've worked with, and continue to work with in Sweden, have a regular business of "SuperTurbo" engines like this.
Goran Lindgren (Dieselmeken AB) is arguably the best pump builder for these engines on the planet.
Fred Sundstrom (F-Tune Performance in Sweden) builds the engines and accessories (exhaust manifolds, intake manifolds) to go along with the rest of the package.
Petter Lonning (in Norway) has as much or more turbo knowledge as anyone with respect to these engines.
Steve.
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So Gentlemen,
I would really like to explore what the options are for 2l TDI engines and performance parts, tuning, know how etc for some records. What's the best bang for the buck as far as engines to start with, turbos, ECU (stock modified ? Or?)
And if anyone would be interested in working on the combination with me😀
I am assuming VW wouldn't be interested in any "Clean Diesel" records right now....
Post it here PM me or send me an email burtonb07@gmail.com
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I am assuming VW wouldn't be interested in any "Clean Diesel" records right now....
That is funny. :cheers: :-D
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Burton,
It looks to me that the H/DS record is relatively attainable for you at 123 and change. Especially with the H/DT record in the 135 range.
Q
P.S. Thanks for the Miller Weld Tent.
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So Gentlemen,
I would really like to explore what the options are for 2l TDI engines and performance parts, tuning, know how etc for some records. What's the best bang for the buck as far as engines to start with, turbos, ECU (stock modified ? Or?)
And if anyone would be interested in working on the combination with me😀
I am assuming VW wouldn't be interested in any "Clean Diesel" records right now....
Post it here PM me or send me an email burtonb07@gmail.com
Burton, I guess a few exaggerations these days is big SH$$T but all I can tell you is that I drove an Audi 1,8TDi station wagon and at more than 120 it was showing 2,43l/100kph on the onboard. I'm not and never have been a VW fan be it Audi or the other expensive one but the TDi is a no brainer.
I was shocked that a station wagon of small displacement could run the way it did. Remove a few thousand pounds of junk and you'll be breaking records everywhere. This thing was quick and if I had the finances my missus would be driving one.
How many Le Mans victories do the diesels have?. 13 I think.
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Car companies cheating test results. Who'd have thought :-D
Robin
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Yes if we started at the bottom end at of the cu inch range and work our way up is fine with me,,,,multiple engine combos are ok too, I might be stealing this from Jack Costello but I think his words were go as fast as you up can with the least amount of $$ is the fun part, anyone with money can generally buy it but that's no real accomplishment.I have a "free"3l Mercedes diesel that could go after that record,,,,,have a 4BT also and a common rail 24 valve that's quite radical but don't really want to start with that,
So With that said 2l TDI suggestions?
Burton
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According to some, the Euro-spec 2010-2014 2.0 TDI Common Rail out of a Golf GTD starts at 170hp, and an ECU flash will put it at 225. The US Spec is 140hp with a flash to 180hp.
Differences noted are:
"· Turbo Charger; the 170CR (GTD) uses a more powerful Turbo then the US spec TDI.
· Fuel Injector's; EPA and Californian emission regulations are responsible for the nerfed parts in US 140CR's but if you are Euro Spec you're up to snuff...
· Heads; See fuel injectors…
· Pistons; See fuel injectors…
· Connecting Rods; See fuel injectors…
· HPFP; Can be bought at ECS
· ECU; perhaps a different programming to handle that extra torque"
Reference http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=354586&page=3 (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=354586&page=3)
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That's what I was looking for.....So on the hunt for a 2010 and up TDI or a couple engines if anyone has or knows where there are cores :-D
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If you catch another deer on the front of your TDI Cup car, try not to hurt the engine! :evil:
Sid.
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Well, there's no ECU and no turbo or manifold, but this looks promising
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-12-VOLKSWAGEN-CC-Engine-2-0L-VIN-P-5th-digit-CBFA-w-Warranty-AUTOGATOR-/201437042458?fits=Year%3A2010%7CMake%3AVolkswagen%7CSubmodel%3ATDI&hash=item2ee695571a&vxp=mtr
Always willing to spend somebody else's money :-D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ENGINE-2010-VW-VOLKSWAGEN-PASSAT-2-0L-4CYL-CBFA-MOTOR-TURBO-INCLUDED-/171893556722?fits=Year%3A2010%7CMake%3AVolkswagen%7CSubmodel%3ATDI&hash=item2805a785f2&vxp=mtr
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Ok,
Don't know if that's a good deal or not.....probably need to see what a guy could do for a complete car that is totaled like the second one.....
And Sid, Ill try not to catch another deer with the cup edition.....I really like the car :-D but it is that time of year where the boy deer are chasing the girl deer around trying to get some....soon.
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I installed a window in my 2.0 CR tdi block this morning via a lazy connecting rod... Needless to say, I did a little searching this morning for some TDI replacements. First, there is 1 (ONE) 2009-2015 5th letter "L" OEM long block left on the shelf in the entire VW parts network (World-wide). It is sitting in NJ and will continue to sit there for a price of $6,500....
So, I did a little more research and found a whole market full of used 2009+ motors (2009+ is important as that begins the CR - Common Rail - motor). You can have them anywhere from $1,200-$2,600USD depending on the mileage. I have selected a 2010 model year with 50k on the odometer for $2,400 including shipping to my door. This does not include turbo, ECU, wiring harness...just a long block.
Now, that motor makes 140bhp/239fp stock as advertised (133 whp) with a DSG transmission. Malone ECU tune and a DSG software upgrade with a DPF and EGR delete will get you north of 220hp. Software related expense is only an additional $1200. Since your application is off-road/racing I would simply go with a straight 3" pipe although there is some details about a high-flow cat that may be useful.
The turbo is so small in this thing (impeller is about the same diameter as a quarter!) that without a little backpressure it is subject to over-revving the turbo. Not sure that is a huge problem on a race application but on a daily driver it isn't so good. They say the high-flow cat is enough to prevent it, perhaps a little creating plumbing can be done without the cat to generate the same results.
That said, I am not spending money to go back to stock. I may not do the DPF/EGR delete because of the expense of replacing the exhaust components (new plumbing sans the DPF - $1,400 additional) but I am seriously considering the $1200 for the tuning. That still gets a 140bhp to 200bhp which will make replacing a motor at only 80k a reasonable justification.
If you are looking for performance on a TDI, check out Malone Tuning, they are about the biggest player in the game. They have distributors all over the US and their work is highly recommended from what I have seen. I may have more details to share in the coming weeks about that...we'll see.
(FYI, there is a long story as to why the rod failed at only 80k that has to do with a dealer moron tech and a failed turbo...not worth the lengthy whining rant here :wink: )
FYI - That second one listed above on ebay includes the turbo. It is a factory installed Borg-Warner that will retail new at $1000. That actually doesn't look like a bad deal.
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Ok,
Don't know if that's a good deal or not.....probably need to see what a guy could do for a complete car that is totaled like the second one.....
And Sid, Ill try not to catch another deer with the cup edition.....I really like the car :-D but it is that time of year where the boy deer are chasing the girl deer around trying to get some....soon.
We know the name of that tune, don't we Burton!
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Yeah Woody that was #1 with a Jetta :-D, Seem to remember you were a passenger ......
#2 was with the 2010 TDI Cup edition......I seem to attract deer.....Maybe I should start hunting?
Got one with the Motorhome a couple years back....all we had to do with that one is pull the hair out of the bumper....
3 more in previous history but one attacked the truck I was driving so not my fault.....
Burton
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Burton;
Night before last here in our neighborhood, a woman hit a cow. A few hours later and a hundred yards down the road, a guy hit two cows! This is open range country so if you hit a cow, you have to pay the rancher for that cow.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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But you end up with a lot of hamburger to eat.... :-D
:cheers:
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A flock of buzzards was taking care of that this morning. :-P
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Yeah I guess if you have to pay for it you might as well eat it......That's just not right though..... guy lets his cow walk down the road and then your responsible for it??
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Neil lives inside of the cattle guard that protects the main road from cows on the open range... :-o Open Range being the place where cows roam freely looking for anything that looks like cow food. Not a lot of food per acre in that part of the country. :|
Seemed like there was a sign just past the guard.... :cheers:
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Open Range laws here in the west date back to the "Wild West" days before we pounded down the road at 80 mph. If you hit a cow & die, the farmer can sue your dead a$$ for the cow. Just another thing the BLM isn't doing with all the Billions, fencing the land.
Mean time back in VW-ville, where's the TDI's? :evil:
Sid.
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Open Range laws here in the west date back to the "Wild West" days before we pounded down the road at 80 mph. If you hit a cow & die, the farmer can sue your dead a$$ for the cow. Just another thing the BLM isn't doing with all the Billions, fencing the land.
Mean time back in VW-ville, where's the TDI's? :evil:
Sid.
Sid, the Winder family in Salt Lake City runs this streamliner using TDI variations including a single 4 cylinder, a 2 cylinder version of the 4 banger, and twin 4 cylinder TDI's. Top speed to date at Bonneville is 149 mph.
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr301/36hplandspeedracer/130%20Misc/814%20-%20Copy_zpshg0wvbij.jpg) (http://s494.photobucket.com/user/36hplandspeedracer/media/130%20Misc/814%20-%20Copy_zpshg0wvbij.jpg.html)
Photo by Burly Burlile
Burly
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I remember seeing that liner & somebody said it was a 2 cyl diesel but I didn't know it had TDI's. That speed is not much more than a stock Jetta, is that maybe their one litre two cylinder engine speed?
Sid.
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I remember seeing that liner & somebody said it was a 2 cyl diesel but I didn't know it had TDI's. That speed is not much more than a stock Jetta, is that maybe their one litre two cylinder engine speed?
Sid.
Sid, the 2 cylinder engine set a 2 way average "record" speed of 83.580 miles per hour with a maximum top speed of 86.322 mph. That is the "fastest" a under 1000cc diesel streamliner has gone at Bonneville. It is never easy to set records on the salt. You might consider this a "soft" record, but until someone challenges it, it remains the fastest for it's class.
Burly
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Update for 2L TDI,
So we are planning to be ready with some diesel engines this year 2L TDI VW and 3L Mercedes engines......We have a bit of work to do yet but if mother nature allows us we will be there this year hopefully having some fun with Diesel power in the liner. We have modified a Winters xtremeliner quick change and have it at 26" flange to flange and two different 5 speeds that should not break :-D
We will be posting some more pics over the next few weeks on our webpage www.victorymotorsports.org if anyone is interested in following along....
Burton
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Loving the small(er) displacement diesel streamliner stuff, Burton. The smaller diesel engines are really coming into their own!
Goran just re-did the pump for my 1.5L engine. I'm planning a similar strategic plan that you are. Like you said, there is a lot of work still to be done, but I am confident that your streamliner and my truck will be ready for the salt in August.
I want to show up at Speed Week with the 2 liter Mercedes engine installed, and then swap in the 1.5L VW when we think we have gotten everything out of the 2 Liter that we can muster.
Steve.