Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: d55guy on May 29, 2015, 11:55:48 PM
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Hey all,
My name is Kerry Manning and I am building an AWD electric S10. I have built 10 vehicles over the years (mostly road racers and rock crawlers) and 5 of them are EVs. I find I enjoy building cars as much as driving them. A month ago I bought a one owner 88 S10 extended cab 4x4 with really low miles and a rod knock. I wanted a long bed but they are hard to find. The extended cab had the long wheelbase I wanted and it was in such great shape I couldn't pass it up.
In the past month I have stripped out all the gas related stuff. I have taken the twin motor powertrain out of my track rat miata. I have coupled the motors to a NP208 transfer case with an adapter from a H1 Hummer and I am starting to fit it in. I have also built up my 800hp watercooled battery pack that is made from wrecked Chevy volt parts.
I am still trying to figure out axles. For the front I am looking for a cast iron 7.2 but the ring and pinions are really limited and I want to keep the motors below 4500rpm. For the stock 7.5" rear I have a TA 2.73 posi diff, and a set of 2.29s r+p to go in but I need to eliminate the c-clips. I have been talking with Mark Williams here in the Denver area and the c-clip eliminators won't fit on the s10 axle so I asked about put in new axles and welding on ends but that is going to run about a grand alone so I am weighing other axle ideas and open to suggestions.
I attached a few pictures.
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I like it when I find other people that build serious vehicles out of "stuff", it takes an understanding most people don't have.
7.5 10 bolt's are great due to the wide range of ratios available.
I believe the Sonoma axle has the same bearing as the Camaro, you can cross check that at your local parts store. That would give you the right housing so you could run retainer kits.
As for the front axle you'll need to get creative there.
See if the 2 series carrier & gears will fit in the front housing. If they do, you could turn the housing upside down & direct mount the motor to the pinion & spin it in the opposite direction or just face it forward & hang the motor out the front & spin it the same as the back one.
If the $hit just won't fit, you could use a rear housing up front the same way but there'd be some fab work to run the stub axles & CV axles.
Do the motors actually need to be in mechanical sync through the T/case?
Sid.
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Hey Kerry, I wish you all the best. :cheers:
Nice exciting project.
Mike.
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Kerry: which motors, controllers?
Frank
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Thanks all. From what I know the sonoma, s10, blazer, hombre, syclone, etc all used the same axle (except the ZR2 which had the 8.5). Did you know of a specific year sonoma? I missed out on a vega axle on CL that had new s10 shafts and posi for 150 that would have been perfect.
I am thinking about a fbody rear end and just welding on some spring perches and putting on a c-clip eliminator. Just having Mark Williams doing my current axle is probably where I will go I am just the type to research every option as I am budget limited.
If I do decide I need a 7.5 up front I will stuff in the front diff from a colorado. They came from the factory with the 7.5 but there is probably a fair bit of fab work involved.
As far as the motor and controller I am planning 2 phase for the build.
This year is Phase1 only using 2 used Warp9 motors powered by a Soliton1 (or a Shiva if I can afford a used one). I might be just rwd to start depending on ratios and fitment. I may just cut the np208 in half as a simple 2 speed gear box. In low I'd have a top speed of 75 and in high it's around 200.
Phase 2 the front axle will be powered by 2 AC24LS motors belted to the front diff and powered by a hacked Volt inverter to give be 500kW total.
If I go this route then I have more flexibility on the front axle ratio as I have a much higher speed on the AC motors. So I would bolt in a cast iron s10 front diff (if I can find one) with a one piece bravada shafts and a 3.08 r+p.
Kerry
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I have 10 bolt's on both ends of my liner & originally cut up an 02 Sonoma housing for the rear & a gen 4 Camaro for the front. I didn't use the axle housings but I seem to recall they were the same. The Sonoma also has a flat 4 bolt pinion flange which might be useful to you.
If the the Camaro housing is not too wide then you're good to go.
The NP203 has the advantage of a synchro cone shift on the fly but has a 2.72 monster reduction. The 205 (no chain) has a 1.96 ratio & the 81 to 88 GM version has the synchro cone shift unlike the rest of them.
Long story short= I ended up tossing the Sonoma housing & using an F center only because all the housings I checked at the junkyard were not machined square to the carrier & that would give a toe issue. Check yours.
Sid.
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Very interesting project you have there.. :-o
If you intend to race it in a land-speed-racing event - make sure you have a rulebook and study it very very closely.
Please keep posting pics and updates - that looks like a fascinating project.
Steve.
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Thanks all, I just got a copy and the first thing that jumped out was the axles so I am working on eliminting the c-clips right now. I wish that disc brakes would count for axle retention.
I have actually looked at the divorced np205 and I might got that route solely for being able to put a TH400 gear vendors in between but it gets very long and the torsion bar cross member gets in the way. The NP208 is syncro'd and I could but a GV on the end of it but the adapters are hard to find.
The S10 axle widths are:
2wd 54.5"
4wd 59"
ZR2 63"
And the F body is 62" so it could work but I would need a funky offset to fit inside the fender skirts but I should be able to make it work. This year the Colorado Mile will be 20 miles from my house so I am thinking that will be my first event. So for the first stage I am now thinking of just doing a 3rd gen 10 bolt with a 2.73 and posi and just the GV on the back of Warp9s. With 29" tires I can be in the 180's but I'll be slow off the line (not a big deal).
Kerry
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When I build mine I use the weld on 9" ends and I bought Ford 28 spline axels from LeadMineproducts.com they make them in 2 different lengths and you just cut to the length you need
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I'll have to look at them. Thanks for the lead.
But I am thinking more about the fbody rear righr now. There are a few 2.73 posi axles with drums in the area for a couple hundred bucks. I think that they will work with the camaro space saver rim (15x4) offset to still fit inside my fender skirts. I can buy one locally to check fitment this week.
Kerry
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The F body should have 28 splines in the carrier if so you can then narrow to specs with ends and "builder Axels" and get rid of c clips
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What class will this truck run?
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I'll have to look at them. Thanks for the lead.
But I am thinking more about the fbody rear righr now. There are a few 2.73 posi axles with drums in the area for a couple hundred bucks. I think that they will work with the camaro space saver rim (15x4) offset to still fit inside my fender skirts. I can buy one locally to check fitment this week.
Kerry
Filling the outside of the wheel arch is good for aero. It looks a little weird with a skinny but most of us are more interested in the numbers.
Sid.
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Before I stated even planning the project back in January I emailed Dan Wright and he said there wasn't a good class for me and that the SCTA is not receptive to the creation of "New Classes". So he recommend I just build what I want and just running for time only (with proper safety equipment of course). Technically I would fit in the 2201lb+ electric only class but as a street legal truck I will be aiming for barely more then half that current ~320mph record.
I already have the fender skirts but I won't have them installed till the end of the week (my wife is working late this week so I am on kid duty).
I am planning on running skinnies for sure.
Right now I am thinking these tires:
Phoenix Drag Tires#932-PH15
Phoenix Front Drag Tire
28.3'' x 7.0'' - 15''
DE Compound
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/m20ProductDisplayView?catalogId=10002&langId=-1&productId=135174&storeId=1000
On these rims:
93-97 Camaro RS SS Z28 Firebird Formula Trans Am WS6 Mini Spare Tire 15 inch
http://m.ebay.com/itm/361041091439
It looks like the rims have plenty of positive offset and my rough measurements make it look like I should be able to fit them under the skirts even with a slightly wider axle (like one off a 3rd Gen f body :).
Kerry
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Spent some quality family time working on aero mods.
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More pictures
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I really do like your idea of quality family time. The kids should be included. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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Even better. I like the ear muffs :cheers:
You should be complimented for that.
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I really do like your idea of quality family time. The kids should be included. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
Even better. I like the ear muffs :cheers:
You should be complimented for that.
Thanks. I can only take partial credit for the muffs as I didn't even need to ask him (I try to teach him right).
BTW I paid for my motor controller last night and it should be here next week. I'll post pictures when I get it, but the amount of power I am going to have on tap is.... unhealthy.
I also ordered a 91 trans am axle and it will be here tomorrow so I can start fitting that in. I think I will end up having to narrow it with new ends and axles to fit under the skirts but it already has 2.73s and a limited slip. I think it's a zexel torsen in a series 2 carrier but I won't believe it until I pop off the cover.
Kerry
Kerry
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Which one did you end, up with?
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Cool build. What shade of green are you going to paint it? :-D
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Cool build. What shade of green are you going to paint it? :-D
Hmmm.... Saylent Green-- wasn't that a movie starring Charleton Heston?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Cool build. What shade of green are you going to paint it? :-D
Hmmm.... Saylent Green-- wasn't that a movie starring Charleton Heston?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Soylent green. You guys are hilarious. :-D I didn't think about Soylent.
Sylent is a nod to the s10's super cool brother the awd Syclone. But when I talk with my aero friends (I used to design GA aircraft ) it has taken the name "The Quick Brick"
Cool build. What shade of green are you going to paint it? :-D
I am going all satin black. There is a guy in town who will dip it for 500 bucks.
Which one did you end, up with?
As far as the controller..... it is shipped and will arrive next week. .. :)
Kerry
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Beautiful project. Two questions:
Why AWD? At your projected speed, you won't be traction limited.
Have you considered an tapering aero bed cap?
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You got the Shiva I saw on DIY, right? :cheers:
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Beautiful project. Two questions:
Why AWD? At your projected speed, you won't be traction limited.
Have you considered an tapering aero bed cap?
AWD: Well axle and motor limitations. I am worried about how much power I can put through the 7.5 10 bolt and how much sustained power I can put through the 2 warp 9s for longer then 10 seconds. I am thinking of powering the front axle with a 100-200kW AC motor. It has a higher RPM so the 3.08 ratio will be okay. But that is phase 2 of the build. It will be rwd for now.
As for the cap: Yes. See attached. CFD is in progress. I wanted the long bed so that I would have a smaller diverging angle. With the shorter bed it
is 15 degrees which is borderline at this Reynolds number. I'll see what the CFD says before I start building.
Kerry
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You got the Shiva I saw on DIY, right? :cheers:
Yep. :-D This changes the direction of the project a bit. Before I was going to be limited to the 400hp of the Soliton1. But since Evnetics stopped production of it I had to go another route. In the end I found I was able to get the *used* 1600hp Shiva for a little more then the new price of a Soliton1. I did designed that battery pack so I could easily double the size. And I do have 2 more volt packs That would give me another 700hp for another 600lbs of weight over the rear wheels. :evil:
Kerry
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Subscribing
:cheers:
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Kerry, Have you looked into the aero mods done to the GMC Syclone that set records at Bonneville?
Very interesting.
With a satin black body you may need air conditioning. :-D
Thanks for sharing your build, Don
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Kerry, Have you looked into the aero mods done to the GMC Syclone that set records at Bonneville?
Very interesting.
With a satin black body you may need air conditioning. :-D
Thanks for sharing your build, Don
Hey Don, I have seen pictures but nothing more. Do you have a link to more information on the Syclone LSR? My goal is a Cd of <.35 which I think is pretty doable, it's the lift coefficient that I am more worried about. :)
As far as the AC at least it's a short run. I used to road race in a all black C5 and yeah.... in the summer it gets uncomfortable fast. Especially with all the safety gear on.
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Unfortunately the TA axle I got delivered from the COS was full of water and rusty. The yard was great and refunded my money but I am back in the axle hunt. I did get the spacesaver spares at Fair Auto in Englewood (nice guys BTW). They are 4" wide with 2 inches of offset but and even with the stock rear end it's too tight (see attached). The 2" wider TA axle definitely would not have worked with my wheel well covers. I have been chatting with Moser and their c-clip eliminator will work with a narrower 2wd 1985 axle I found. It happens to be at Fair Auto too so I will heading back there again next week.
This weekend is more body work and hopefully getting the motor mounted.
Kerry
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Kerry, PM sent.
Don
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Kerry, PM sent.
Don
Thanks for the info Don!
I have been under the weather so I didn't get a ton done but I prepped the interior for the cage and working on the body. I bought a roll pan to fill the void where the rear bumper used to be but unfortunately the Taiwanese part I got fit really poorly. I also started working on the air dam and the spoiler.
Kerry
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I wish attachments weren't such a pain on the forum....
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Very interesting project you have there.. :-o
If you intend to race it in a land-speed-racing event - make sure you have a rulebook and study it very very closely.
Please keep posting pics and updates - that looks like a fascinating project.
Steve.
So taking your advice to heart Steve I was reading the rule book for a second time through and noticed that c-clip eliminators I was trying to make work are specifically prohibited. I was focused on getting rid of the clips to paying attention on the how. :oops: It's not a problem for the 150mph club or the Colorado mile that I will be racing this year but I want everything I do to be forward compatible for the *real* thing next year.
I will still be doing 2 axles: One that is a s10 4x4 width for on the pavement and the one that is the 2wd width to fit skinnies under the skirts.
Kerry
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First of many motor test fits
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Test fit #2. I would have a easier time mounting the motors under the cab as there is plenty of room there. But I am trying to get the motors as far forward as possible as I am worried about CG. Right now I have 600lbs of batteries over the rear axle and even with the 350lb motor centered on the front axle I will be near 50/50 weight distribution. For any other vehicles I have built I would be ecstatic about this but I don't know that is a good thing for LSR.
With a brick at these speeds I am worried about getting light on the front. Having no experience with a truck at these speeds (the fastest I have gone in a car is 160) I am honestly scared about air getting under the the front and sending me airborne. I can add ballast up front but I am interested to hearing from you guys if I am being overly worried?
Thanks,
Kerry
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I took today off to work on the motor cradle.
You can see my precision sheetmetal brake.
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But I got it all welded and installed
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And I even got my "new" shiva in and installed. I wired it up temporarily just to verify it was in good working order. The giggle fit my daughter made when she heard the motor spin up, that alone made it worth all the work.
I still can't believe I have a Shiva... 1600hp.... I think I will keep it at *only* 800hp for now. I doubt these poor axles can take it.
I decided to have a shop install my cage so I pulled the Shiva back out to make room. We are doing a family road trip from Denver to San Diego so the shop can do the dirty work while I am gone. I usually try to do everything myself but this way the project will keep moving without me. We leave on Tuesday so there won't be many more updates till July.
Kerry
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Kerry....Make sure the Shop you have doing the Cage Work is familiar with LSR Rules. There are some fairly major differences between standard Drag Race stuff and what is required to pass Tech at the Salt......
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Kerry....Make sure the Shop you have doing the Cage Work is familiar with LSR Rules. There are some fairly major differences between standard Drag Race stuff and what is required to pass Tech at the Salt......
Thanks for the tip. I did ask them specifically about it. I won't know for sure until they actually do it but I will talk with them about it in more detail when I drop it off on Monday,
Kerry
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Kerry, a copy of the rulebook and a few sample photos would probably really help. Most shops who normally do drag race or oval track cages are going to feel you're going overboard but the requirements have been developed over the years through a series of unfortunate circumstances which nobody wants repeated.
Pete
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You might as well be talking in tongues when it comes to electric drives & the Shiva thingy. How about enlightening some fossil fuelers as to where all this horsepower is lurking.
Sid.
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Sure, i'd be glad to.
I currently have 2 packs from wrecked chevy volts in the back of the truck and room for 2 more. Each one can put out over 400hp:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HYrhykqpyj4
The Shiva is the most powerful EV controller on the planet:
http://www.evnetics.com/evnetics-products/soliton-shiva/
Those two things together mean that I can send up to 1600hp to the motors. Keeping the motors from melting under those power levels is a challenge though.
Kerry
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Kerry, a copy of the rulebook and a few sample photos would probably really help. Most shops who normally do drag race or oval track cages are going to feel you're going overboard but the requirements have been developed over the years through a series of unfortunate circumstances which nobody wants repeated.
Pete
Hey Pete,
I sent them a copy or the DRLA rule book but making a photocopy of the SCTA pages is a good idea. I wish the SCTA book was available as a digital copy.
Thanks,
Kerry
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Sure, i'd be glad to.
I currently have 2 packs from wrecked chevy volts in the back of the truck and room for 2 more. Each one can put out over 400hp:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HYrhykqpyj4
The Shiva is the most powerful EV controller on the planet:
http://www.evnetics.com/evnetics-products/soliton-shiva/
Those two things together mean that I can send up to 1600hp to the motors. Keeping the motors from melting under those power levels is a challenge though.
Kerry
Thanks Kerry. That explanation really helped turn on the lights. :-D :-D 8-)
Pete
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Kerry, I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that you invest the ten bucks it'll cost to get a copy of the SCTA rulebook - and have it sent directly to the shop that'll be building the cage for you. And I'll go further and suggest that you get written confirmation, right on the purchase order (and be sure to make one so you've got records), that if it does not meet LSR/SCTA specs that they'll bear the cost of redoing/changing, not you. Kind of an "I told you so" proposition from you to them. Specify that they HAVE to do it right the first time.
I get kinda shaky when I hear about shops that haven't ever built a LSR-okay cage - building cages for our kind of racing. A rulebook in the hand might be even more respected by the shop than a photocopy of it. And that way they could see other information that you might not have included when you were making the copies.
Hey - it's only $10 (well, plus some shipping, I suppose). Get two or three books for that shop - as I say: one for the shop, one for the office, and one for the back of the toilet in the men's room. In the long run you'll be the benefactor.
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So I am back in civilization and hope to get working on the project again next week. Hiking around the bottom of the Grand Canyon has given me plenty of time to think. For the axle I have decided to go with a ford 9 inch. For the price it would cost to to make the 7.5 safe I could have a much stronger 9 that could survive the Shiva on tarmac.
http://www.quickperformance.com/9-Ford-Housing-Axle-Package-S10-82-04_p_4027.html
I did find a 9" 2.47 ring and pinion but I decided to use a 3.5 and a 51% OD. For the OD I am going with a divorced NP205 running in reverse (the input connected the output yoke and vice versa) to just power the rear axle.
I know of two crawlers that have used a t case like this. I am concerned about the reversed thrust loading but the 205 is a very stout case with people dumping over 3-4000ftlbs, even in reverse. It will hold but who knows for how long.
For the cage the shop had a rush project and they just got back to me so I am back on the fence about building my own or paying someone else.
Kerry
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You will need forced air cooling for sure for the motors... I'd be planning for pavement events: 1/2 mile or mile.
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The 205 has symmetrically shaped gears so the strength is the same in either direction.
Running it backwards won't give you 51% over, it will be 96% over because it's nearly 2 to 1 in forward direction.
Sid.
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Hey all,
Sorry for the lack of updates but I have been too busy building. Back in mid July I saw the writing on the salt so I built up the shell for standing mile events instead of Bonneville. I still want to race at Bonneville but when USmile announced a event I changed course and started building. I paid a shop to build a 10 point cage and then spent the next 7 weeks thrashing on the truck to get it done. I finished it the night before the race but on it's first run with only half power I set a speed of 150mph which is a new top speed for an electric truck. I put some of the videos on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/d55guy/
I highly recommend the shots of the motors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm92vn0I1r0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgPLRmvoxfY
The transfercase.... er... overdrive worked great and I was only turning 3100rpm at 150mph. I wasn't able to get the shifter built in time so I simply ran the whole way in OD (51% with 3.07 rear). Unfortunately my charger blew up the night before so I only had 2 out of 4 banks charged. I upped the current to 2300amps on my second run and broke the front motor coupler peaking at 850ehp (Thank goodness for rev limitiers :) I think of the truck as the worlds most exciting battery dyno, and the batteries passed with flying colors. Once I install my other 2 banks I'll have the potential for 1400ehp. Overall I am really happy with the result. I learned a lot and I am sourcing another motor (still drives fine on one :) adding another motor brace.
Kerry
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Kerry, updates aside, congrats on the accomplishment. When you are thrashing you are not expected to stop and update the rest of us. We are infowhores :-D when it comes to what others are doing.
Fix it and get back to racing :cheers:
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:cheers: