Landracing Forum
Tech Information => EFI Questions => Topic started by: tauruck on April 14, 2015, 03:48:31 AM
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I need stirling advice on a sheet metal intake.
I used a brand new Torker11 manifold from Edelbrock to create a welding jig
for the Aluminum plates (3) I'll be using to make up the base.
I have two options.
Use the jig that by all accounts is accurate and has all the threaded inserts built in already
or take the dummy block with the heads mounted to my Aluminum weldor?.
The thing that bothers me is that the welded jig might be a small amount "off" due to the welding.
Using the block and heads means wasting a set of gaskets and the transportation is going to be difficult.
When making the jig I used 6mm steel plate and never welded it all in one go.
I took my time and used the original fasteners to set it up.
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When I bought my first profiler manifold I couldn't find one for a std. height BBC block---they had to mill the tall deck intake manifold to fit the head and block.
you might take the same approach build the manifold slightly to "small" with thick flanges and mill to fit---it would also take care of any welding induced warpage at the same time.
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Mike, do yourself a favor and use the block & heads for mockup to weld. It WILL warp some. so be ready to mill the flanges if needed.
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Thanks Mike.
Do I set it up with or sans gaskets?.
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My vote -- set it up with thick flanges and no gaskets so you can mill to straighten and fit
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I'm agreeing with Sparky. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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Thanks Sparky and Pete.
Wise words. That's exactly what I'll do.
Awesome advice. :cheers:
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I was just thinking that I'll need to use head gaskets and tie down the heads
properly so I get correct bolt alignment.
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I was referring to intake gaskets
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I was referring to intake gaskets
I know you were but if I leave the head gaskets out it will change dimensions fairly drastically.
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Head gaskets come in a variety of compressed thickness's. Also that gasket dimension can change your compression ratio substantially. You need to figure out which ones you are going to use. Then you could use shim washers of the right thickness,under the head on the bolts so you can clamp them down tightly for stability without using up new gaskets.
Ron
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Ron is correct, you should use either a head gasket or simulate one. The bolt them down with 3 or 4 head fasteners. No need to use them all or torque to spec. Using a new head gasket is not a problem, most will be ok to use afterwards.
Carry on...
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First problem encountered.
I have an ARP bolt kit for the original Torker2 manifold.
Instinct tells me the bolts are a little long for my sheet metal application.
Do I replace them all with shorter High Tensile good grade bolts?
I could swap out some of them but that's looking for trouble IMO.
Thanks in advance.
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Some pics of the original fasteners from ARP on both ends.
The bushings look very long. What say you guys?.
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Swap them out, no problem. The use of grade 5 in this application is fine.
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I made a decision, a tool and some progress.
I cut one of the bushings to size and test fitted it with the ARP bolt.
It's fine.
I made a tool from steel tubing. I found a piece that needed slight
opening on the ID and then cut the angle according to the sample bushing.
All I had to do was press the Aluminum into the steel sleeve and cut it as close as possible.
After that I tidied it up on the belt sander.
It all took time but came out OK IMO. :-)
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I've still got one side to do plus the four smaller bushings that run at
a different angle.
I'll get on the rest tomorrow. I'm bushed. :wink: :cheers:
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That is a good solution, Mike. I'd use washers under the heads of those bolts, though.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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There are washers Neil. :wink:
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I should have known that, Mike.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Neil, they're difficult to see in the photos.
I have an old phone and it doesn't take the best pics.
I'm done with making all the bushings. :cheers:
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The next step is to set up the block with the heads
aligned and use some same thickness material instead of gaskets.
Once all is correct I'll take the dummy motor to Duncan so he can weld
the components.
I'm happy with the way the bushings turned out seeing as all I had were
the steel jigs and the belt sander. I got very lucky on the fit IMO.
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It's looking good Mike. All that hand work is slow going.
Now you know why all the big fabrication shops have all those machines . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Fantastic work, Mike. I'm still amazed you're doing all this by yourself.
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Thanks for showing the way --- I hope to be going down this road soon when I build an intake for an Iron head LS motor
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Thanks guys. :cheers:
I'd hazard a a guess this is one of the only sheet metal manifolds being made over here.
The big shops don't have the time or the inclination to take on Mickey Mouse projects.
I'm learning as I go and the ideal situation would be to have a really good machine to weld Aluminum
but I only have 220v house hold power. The good machines are all 380v but I'm still useless at Ally welding.
Tom Burkland suggested a few mods to the intake and I will incorporate them in the future.
Next step is to fabricate the 8 runners. Not for the meek I guess.
Mike, no one shows up here. Not a soul. Local interest is at zero. I work like you do only with a little more space in the shop.
I really thought guys over here would be queuing up to get involved.
Past experience showed that as soon as you make it big, they come. These guys just want to wear the uniform and pose. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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what uniform :? :-D
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The team shirt Sparky. We won't go out there looking like a bunch of hip hop artists. :-D
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Mike...I take an XL size shirt.....My pal Crazy Bob is about the same size. We could pose up a storm over here, maybe use an enlarged pic of the `Liner as a backdrop..... :-D :-D
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Paul, the shirts are the sleeve and collar type worn by pro teams.
We still have to choose the brand we'ere going with.
BTW, My crew (so far) are also big guys. Not one under 6', 200lbs.
Let's see what happens. If I hit the jackpot I'll have more shirts made for sure. :wink:
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Its too bad you are around the world from me. I get just as much satisfaction being a part of something from the ground floor ( if not moreso ) as I do once its done. Its a good feeling to say yeah, I had a hand in something, even if its a just a small hand. I enjoyed my time being around Sparky and getting to do the things I did on Miss Liberty.
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Thanks Frankie.
I actually wish I lived closer to you guys. :-D
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Mike said:
I'm learning as I go and the ideal situation would be to have a really good machine to weld Aluminum
but I only have 220v house hold power. The good machines are all 380v but I'm still useless at Ally welding.
[/quote]
Mike,
You really don't need 380 3 phase, I have 220 in my place and have had no problem running my old welder at over 400 amps and my new Miller 350 works perfect. My kid built a new intake for his KA Nisson motor last year with the new Miller and it was perfect. Of course he could weld aluminum to balsa wood and it wouldn't break! I don't know if you follow this web site, weldingtipsandtricks.com
by Jody Collier, but he really shows lots of great tips for TIG, MIG and stick welding. He just did some aluminum using a argon- helium mix gas which was really terrific. Go on his web site and sign up and you will get a great video about welding every week.
Can't say enough about you project and especially your "bull dog" get it done style.
Rex
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..I'm learning as I go and the ideal situation would be to have a really good machine to weld Aluminum
but I only have 220v house hold power. The good machines are all 380v but I'm still useless at Ally welding......
Mike, if you haven't checked out the link Rex posted to weldingtipsandtricks.com , do so - there is a wealth of info in an easy to understand style.
I also only have a 220v TIG but have found some pre-heat works wonders on heavier material.
Mike, no one shows up here. Not a soul. Local interest is at zero. I work like you do only with a little more space in the shop.
I really thought guys over here would be queuing up to get involved.
Past experience showed that as soon as you make it big, they come. These guys just want to wear the uniform and pose. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
I can still not fathom this..... a vehicle like this being built in South Africa and even the guys trying to get our local LSR event up to scratch haven't picked up what you're doing, or not caring....wtf?
You can bet that when I get to JHB again you'll be one of my first stops!
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Mike said:
I'm learning as I go and the ideal situation would be to have a really good machine to weld Aluminum
but I only have 220v house hold power. The good machines are all 380v but I'm still useless at Ally welding.
Mike,
You really don't need 380 3 phase, I have 220 in my place and have had no problem running my old welder at over 400 amps and my new Miller 350 works perfect. My kid built a new intake for his KA Nisson motor last year with the new Miller and it was perfect. Of course he could weld aluminum to balsa wood and it wouldn't break! I don't know if you follow this web site, weldingtipsandtricks.com
by Jody Collier, but he really shows lots of great tips for TIG, MIG and stick welding. He just did some aluminum using a argon- helium mix gas which was really terrific. Go on his web site and sign up and you will get a great video about welding every week.
Can't say enough about you project and especially your "bull dog" get it done style.
Rex
[/quote]
I believe the 220v down there is like NZ & Aus 240v & that is standard wall outlet power just like 110v is here.
Sid.
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Thanks Barry, Rex and Sid.
The aluminum welding thing is best left to the pros.
I do a lot and some of it is outside my field of expertise
but welding the soft stuff needs a skill I don't have.
Duncan Thersby is my guy. I'd love to walk around with my chest out saying "I did that" but
I'm humble enough to know when something is not my gig!!!!.
I need to concentrate on finding/earning bucks to finish this car.
Barry, you're welcome here anytime. Stay as long as you like.
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The intake requires a short crank trigger compatible distributor to "AVOID" the left front runner.
I managed to borrow one from the local importer and the cap is still too big (OD) and I don't want the runner cocked at an angle.
I contacted Jesel and Rob Remesi replied that they had a belt drive distributor kit for the Ford.
I'm waiting to hear if they have one for the Cleveland because the one in picture must be for the Windsors.
Not sure how it will work with the positioning of the water pump (belt driven) and the motor plate.
If they do have one that will work I have the space ahead of the motor.
Another reason I wish I lived in the US. :x
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I like the Electromotive distributor less ignition. The trigger wheel doesn't take up any room and adjusting timing is way easy. Have you looked into that?
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I agree Rich, I have two Electromotive units on the liner for the dual plugs & the EFI. Only thing on the engine is the crank trigger. Lots of stuff shows up on Ebay, I bought another complete 8 cyl Tech 3 system a while back as a second spare for for $320.
Sid.
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When I emailed the guy at Jesel I made sure I told him my motor was a 351C.
He sent me lots of info with pics and quotes. When I wrote back to ask if the kit will fit he says
it's only for Windsors!!!!!!. WTF, can't he read?. No biggie.
You guys need to help me on this please. I come from a Holley carb background on Torker type manifolds
with an MSD 7AL. All the new stuff with fuel rails, sheet metal intakes and fancy ignitions is totally new and
foreign.
What makes it worse is that they guys here that are experts work on imports but I guess the V8 can't be too different.
If I can eliminate the dizzy I'm home free. I have a new mold for the Plenum waiting with 15 layers of Carbon ready to go
but I've been holding back for obvious reasons.
I need more detail. Thanks in advance Rich and Sid. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/129102195?r=585104195
This is what I just found. Might be the answer????.
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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&ved=0CGcQFjAL&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.racetep.com%2F04_05_Catalog.pdf&ei=EM-CVfP8KpGpogTbwoCoBg&usg=AFQjCNG1ANGqFjyyVgZ3TJ7vZnkGMUvL7A&sig2=XMPJ_i6YxeIKzvUEDAO3Mg&bvm=bv.96042044,d.cGU This has some pictures of the electromotive set up. A toothed wheel and coil packs on the valve covers or something like that. A small controller nearby. I mounted my wheel behind the damper. So nothing stuck out. I notice they have a kit for Windsor type engines but not yours. That doesn't mean anything. I never knew they had kits at all. It's very easy to mount on your own.
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The kit I saw on the Pantera site fits the Cleveland.
I'm waiting for Electromotive to reply to my email.
Rich, You bailed me out big time on this. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
It's the answer for sure. I can't wait to plug that distributor shaft!!!!!. :-D
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I have the older Tech 3 stuff that I bought used because I'm a dumpster diver racer but it has everything to run a boosted V8 with EFI.
My engine is a Keith Black & I have the trigger wheel, toothed oil pump drive & serpentine alternator drive all on the crank snout.
A point to remember here, if you are running anything other than a mag, run an alternator.
Sid.
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Mike,
The Milwaukee Midget used an Electromotive "wasted spark" distributorless system. No dizzy, no problem, new record.
Electromotive also has ECU's that can control EFI as well as spark timing. Their tech dept. should be able to help you out on selection.
PM the midget/Chris for the name of his contact there.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Rich and Fordboy, how do you think the MSD type ignition ( http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=16008&terms=6214 ) compares to the Electromotive type?
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Be cautious about choosing an Electromotive ignition if you have a large engines with high CR . The irregular cranking speed of this combination keeps them from electronically reorienting itself which it needs to do at each start and the engine won't start . Personal experience on this .
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Not having used the MSD unit, I really can't compare them. The ElectroMotive people say that their system is better than a Capacitive Discharge system for some reason. But what else would they say?
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The electromotive unit looks easier to install requiring only one pickup. The MSD requires two pickups one adjustable relative to the other to get them 180 apart and the pair adjustable as a unit to set TDC
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Be cautious about choosing an Electromotive ignition if you have a large engines with high CR . The irregular cranking speed of this combination keeps them from electronically reorienting itself which it needs to do at each start and the engine won't start . Personal experience on this .
That is an issue with all ECU systems & it's easily solved with 24V on the starter but not an issue Mike will have with his turbo Cleveland.
You just cant beat the accuracy of a crank trigger system with anything mechanical. Electromotive was the pioneer in the stuff & paved the way for everybody else to follow.
Sid.
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The electromotive unit looks easier to install requiring only one pickup. The MSD requires two pickups one adjustable relative to the other to get them 180 apart and the pair adjustable as a unit to set TDC
Yes i found it to be very easy to install. And it worked fine for me. I can not fault the Electromotive ignition. I did not have EFI so I don't know anything about that.
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Mike i have not followed your build right through ,. but see comment about fuel rail,
is this an efi build or carb , as your just about at the point of using a standalone ecu even if its for ignition only
that would give you boost control, any sort of ignition you chose like individual coils , lots of logging , list goes on ...
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My 2 cents worth....I have an Electromotive unit in my Ranchero, (Pinto 4 cylinder engine) since 2008 with no issues.... I have what I think is high compression..(14.95 to 1) I shift it at 9500 rpm and this ignition has never missed a beat...timing is dead accurate, rev limiter is dead accurate...and I am very happy with it....that's it that's all....Paul...
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No experience with the MSD distributorless setups.
I have a high opinion of the regular MSD products though.
ALL of my boosted EFI engines used Electromotive ECU's. Took a bit to program the curves, but no problems afterward.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Like Rich, I haven't used the Electromotive EFI, but having dialed in the ignition curve on the Electromotive software, I'll say the software is easy to master and change up, you can store and recall different curves, work around knock issues.
I'm not particularly computer confident, but I found it a lot easier than playing Tetris.
And like Paul, it ran high revs without missing a beat.
I also got okay customer support out of the company.
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Thanks all.
I'd be up a creek without a paddle if it wasn't for your help and advice. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Maj, my motor will be EFI (Bosch 2200cc injectors) with twin turbos.
I don't know jack about electronics, how the engine management system works in conjunction
with the other components but I have good local help on the setup side.
I'm going with the Electromotive unit no matter what. :-D
This is the answer I was looking for and Rich I owe you big time. :cheers:
Downside is I'm stuck with a bunch of expensive, brand new MSD stuff I can't sell locally. :evil:
I'll PM Chris for that contact. Thank you Mike.
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Would this help your predicament?
Sid.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Take-Off-Ford-302-351C-Cleveland-3V-4V-W-T-Fabricated-High-Rise-Intake-Manifold-/121403288131?hash=item1c44332a43&vxp=mtr
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i think he needs heavier grade aluminium in the plenum Sid
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My 2 cents worth....I have an Electromotive unit in my Ranchero, (Pinto 4 cylinder engine) since 2008 with no issues.... I have what I think is high compression..(14.95 to 1) I shift it at 9500 rpm and this ignition has never missed a beat...timing is dead accurate, rev limiter is dead accurate...and I am very happy with it....that's it that's all....Paul...
Paul's ride is definitely a no joke endeavor... I think he wins the award for
smiles per MPH in that Ranchero, and it always has run like a beast (aside
from melting a few pistons while on nitrous :-) Good seeing you on here &
hoping all is well with the Canada crew! -Luke & Gretta Kohler
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He he he, I was also a Ranchero man but the version we have here is the same as the Australian XB Ute.
Ford 351C power.
That's the truck that got me into this LSR "nightmare". :-D
Sid, thank you and maj is correct. That intake won't work.
The plenum i'm making will have the throttle body on the back side.
I never got a reply from Electromotive so Chris sent me details of someone I could email.
They're probably very busy but maybe my mail got rejected. Who knows?.
Thanks Chris. :cheers:
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I hate always asking for help.
I also love contributing where I can but assistance is what I need AGAIN!!!.
This time it's spark plugs. I've got some pretty special plugs from one manufacturer
but they're for NA gas application.
The EFI, turbocharged Ethanol (98%) Ford Cleveland set up is new to me.
I have no reference to go by and the new sponsor Bosch needs to know what plugs I want?.
I don't know where to begin. The motor is pretty obsolete by current standards so expert help is required.
Thanks guys. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Sorry Mike, this is going to be tough for you. The iron Cleveland Ford head uses a 18mm taper seat spark plug. You need a fairly cold plug for a turbocharged application. Autolite #124 is the coldest they have. 18mm spark plugs are not used in any production engines anymore so getting a good race plug is kinda hard. You should be able to come up with something that will work, it just not as easy to get.
Just looked up the Bosch number, try this #7950
Another reason not to run old stuff...... it costs more later.
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Aussie heads have 14mm plugs.
Sid.
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http://eugene.craigslist.org/pts/5121273373.html (http://eugene.craigslist.org/pts/5121273373.html)
http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/pts/5111663704.html (http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/pts/5111663704.html) :?
Mike
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The NGK stock I have is 14mm.
#R5673-7
Probably too hot for my current application
but the only way to resolve this is to call my connection and get his advice on
what he recommends and then try find Bosch plugs with that rating.
Thanks for the input guys. :cheers:
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When we had access to Champion engineering support, they said for long WOT runs use the coldest plug that would light the fire. It has always worked for us.
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When we had access to Champion engineering support, they said for long WOT runs use the coldest plug that would light the fire. It has always worked for us.
x2!!!!
You may have to try to install "inserts" to reduce the spark plug threads from 18mm to 14mm to be able to come up with plugs. I still change from 14mm to 10mm plugs for certain applications, like Ford based F/Jr and some whippy BMC's.
25 years ago, Bosch had a line of racing 18mm plugs for the 2 liter German Ford with the iron head. Ask your Bosch guy if they might work for you. If so start the "snipe hunt" for new old stock.
I'll check through my stores for NOS Bosch 18mm. If I have any, I'll post the part # for you to forward to your Bosch guy, to check for suitability. This would be a short term fix though, long term, you need to change over to 14mm.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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We run NGK TR7's (BR7EF) we run have been great for us.
Using an adapter, I can see TR55's being good, as well.
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He doesn't need adaptors, his heads are 14mm. :dhorse:
Sid.
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Still no PC and ADSL connection.
Landline still out as well.
Fighting on though and thanks to my mate Ian I can connect from his place.
Here are the pics of the new plenum project.
The box will be Carbon but I've started fabricating the runners, runner mounts and other bits.
No milling machine but we make a plan.
I found 8mm Ally leftovers and cut them to size. I punched and drilled the 4 mounting holes using
marking blue as a guide.
A cross through the center and I got to work on punching out the opening for the plenum end of the runner.
This is round but needed to be angled. Drill press and hole saw. :-D
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I pre shaped the head side of the runner.
It almost matches the port but later die grinding will clean up the
small stuff.
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Two more shots of the work.
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Now I need a welding jig to hold all the pieces in place when it goes for welding.
I did all the marking, drilling and mounting for the plenum (rhs).
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All the nuts got tacked so that nothing moves.
Then I fabbed a base with ends off the original "too short" plenum from steel plate.
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Pics of the thing coming together.
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A few more different angles.
I need a few more plates and tubing to finish.
I also need instruction on mig welding (tacking) the Aluminum.
My last experience was a disaster.
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"I also need instruction on mig welding (tacking) the Aluminum."
Don't. The tacks will be too large and too cold for the tig to cover them. You should be able to tig tack them just fine. The trick with starting a good tig weld, especially on aluminum, is to start slowly and build the heat at the start gradually before you actually start to melt the metal. Get both sides of the weld puddled before you add any filler. Add a little filler and you have a tack. Continue adding filler and you have a weld. To make a nice aluminum weld be a little patient. :-D :-D :-D
Of course, aluminum is welded with AC current and high frequency plus a little higher flow on the shielding gas.
Pete
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"I also need instruction on mig welding (tacking) the Aluminum."
Don't. The tacks will be too large and too cold for the tig to cover them. You should be able to tig tack them just fine. The trick with starting a good tig weld, especially on aluminum, is to start slowly and build the heat at the start gradually before you actually start to melt the metal. Get both sides of the weld puddled before you add any filler. Add a little filler and you have a tack. Continue adding filler and you have a weld. To make a nice aluminum weld be a little patient. :-D :-D :-D
Of course, aluminum is welded with AC current and high frequency plus a little higher flow on the shielding gas.
Pete
Mike,
Pete's advice is spot on.
:cheers:
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Pete, I don't have access to an AC tig welding machine here.
My tacks need to be mig and then the part will go to the real welder.
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do you have gas welding?
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Pete, I don't have access to an AC tig welding machine here.
My tacks need to be mig and then the part will go to the real welder.
Mike, in that case preheat the whole area where you're going to tack so it's at least sizzling hot before you make the mig tacks. They'll penetrate much better even if you make the tacks smaller (good). If possible leave the manifold on the jig for as much welding as you can.
Pete
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do you have gas welding?
Sparky, the oxy/acetylene process, while it's great for aluminum body work, would be very difficult to use for someone not practiced in the process. You're dealing with two very different thicknesses of material and some awkward positioning. The oxy/acetylene on the other hand will be the perfect tool for achieving adequate preheat. The trick is to spread the heat out evenly and not concentrate in a small area. A small rosebud tip would probably be a good choice. The amount of heat required to achieve tacking temperatures with gas would likely lead to serious distortion.
Pete
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Thanks Pete. :cheers:
That's great advice. I have a roll of Aluminum wire and the last time I tried running a bead or two
all I got was lousy welds and my mask covered in white soot.
I went with Guido's advice and just gave up.
A few months back I went with him to install the exact same machine I have at a client.
They guys were also struggling a bit so Guido suggested I have a go. I laid down the best
mig weld I've ever done. No smoke, good penetration and if you didn't know better you'd have
thought it was a tig weld.
I don't know what made the difference but I have read up on advice. Someone suggested using a larger tip
eg a 1mm tip for ,8mm wire and not to tighten the feeder system as tightly as one would for steel.
Maybe I had the gas flow too high as well before?.
I'll do some tests before tacking. I'll make sure all the parts are securely bolted down before I start.
I'll post pics of the tests before I get really brave.
Sparky, I have gas welding equipment but never tried it. I leave that to the pros but thanks anyway.
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Get a scrap piece of aluminum and start running stringer beads. I run in the area of 18 to 20 cfm of argon. Don't be afraid to make bold moves until you start to close in on what you want. The fillets will definitely take more heat than your practice stringers on the flat but you'll be close.
Pete
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Thanks Pete. I'll let you know how I progress.
I guess tomorrow is D day.
I won't give up until I ace this thing.
I've gotten around a few poke checking defensemen before. :-D :-D :-D
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Professionals use a conventional commercial gas oven to heat the stuff
Self racing does a batch of 4 ---they have a 3 door Wolf oven---3 are heating--- one is being welded on --a little at a time---then back to the oven pull a hot one out and put this one in---repeat as necessary until all are DONE :-D--
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Thanks Sparky. :cheers:
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Does anyone maybe have a drawing of weld in bungs for Bosch injectors?.
I need to turn a set on the lathe. :roll:
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Left side of welding jig drilled and anchor nuts welded in.
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I've posted on my build diary that I'm fabricating a Carbon Fiber Plenum for the motor.
There are quite a few high pressure vessels like Nos and dive tanks being manufactured
and I'm using similar techniques in the construction process.
By the time the plenum is done there will be about 14 layers of Carbon, Kevlar and Glass fiber
on the part. Probably the stoutest part I'll ever make.
My turbo guys say we'll be going to 2Bar boost so obviously the piece will have to be pressure
tested to at least 3Bar.
Herein lies the problem. Bolting on a quick release fitting and using the compressor to gradually
build up pressure is the route I'll have to take but if it fails at any point my thinking is that it will
have the same effect as an IED!!!!.
I was going to submerge the plenum in a 40 gallon plastic container but there's a whole lot wrong
with the idea IMO.
I can submerge the plenum in Ian's swimming pool and see what happens.
What do you guys think?.
I built an airbox for a 510 Sonny Leonard Nos EFI BBC and the customer had a backfire.
The end result wasn't pretty but the part wasn't meant to be a pressure vessel.
I'm worried even though I have faith in my work and I know you guys won't steer me in the wrong direction. :| :| :| :|
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Mikey,
Make a replaceable blow off plate, using something like a plastic milk carton for the replaceable media.
I used something like this on my ally plenum on my Nitrous turbo funny bike. If I had a nitrous burp, then the plastic milk carton would blow, leaving the plenum intact, it was good for just under 3 Bar and 3 stages of Nitrous (about 400 HP).
It you make a jig for the blow off plate, then you can easily make replacements at a race meeting. I can see if I still have some pic's if you want.
Seasons greetings
Neil
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fill the part with water and pressurize the water..... if anything lets go you only get a "Burp" and not a BOOM!....
Good luck and a blow-off panel is a necessity like Neil suggested,
Robert
Supercharged Morini
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Thanks guys. Great advice.
That's what makes this forum so special. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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hydrostatic testing
I would for sure would only pressure a small remote canister with only water running to the unit to be tested also beware of threads pulling out
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Hydro testing is the way to go Mike. You fill the object completely with water before you apply the air pressure. That leaves you with only a very small air bubble. You still have to contain the object in some way but the resulting explosion is much less. I've personally seen vessels let go at 16,000 psi and the result is massive destruction but not anywhere near what it would be without the water. Where I worked they were building aluminum cylindrical tanks wrapped in an inch or more of carbon fiber.
Good luck with it.
I hope Christmas went well and all the best in the New Year.
Pete
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Water filled is the ONLY way to go.
Immerse the whole contraption in a 55 (or larger) open head drum filled with water or loose sand. Position the drum outside, away from buildings, and if you are paranoid, sandbag the outside of the drum. You want to use some sort of easily dispersed media to absorb any high pressure explosion.
It should go without saying, you need to be: out of range . . . . . . .
JMO
Hope you have a pleasant (and safe!!) Holiday season and a Happy (and prosperous) New Year.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
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Mike,
When I worked in a shop that fabed boiler tubes we filled them almost full of water, fit a pressure gauge and put in about 50 psi. In 24 hours if we had 50 psi, no leaks.
Doesn't get max pressure but it is a start.
Terry
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OK guys, I'll do the test with water.
I'll make sure safety is the number one priority.
I guess the easier option would have been to fabricate an Aluminum piece
but I can't weld the material. I don't have the skill or the equipment.
Again, thank you all for the advice. You guys never let me down.
The project is not a quickie so it will be a while before we get a result. :cheers:
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Uhh guys.... now you're scaring me... sandbags.... lets not get carried away....
short story... we were building 2 3 gallon gas tanks for the Bockscar... Our youngest member at the time was Marty's little brother Kevin, about 20 at the time, he is a very good welder... so after he welded up the first one, he decided he needed to pressure test it to be sure of the welds... put the cap on, put plugs in the holes and hooked it straight to shop air.... 150 psi.... Bang... scared the crap out of him and us, we were working on the other side of the shop. After things settled down, we mentioned that he might want to put a regulator on the air line... since psi was pounds of pressure per square inch and there were a lot of square inches... :-o
No one was killed, the tank split next to the weld on corner... but Kev got a valuable physics demonstration... So if you are pressurizing any part, consider it's operating parameters, and what you are checking before you go over the edge.
Just my thoughts.... :roll:
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When I check a tank of that sort I plug all the ports except one, usually the filler. I then wrap a rag around the air nozzle of the shop air and put that in the open port. I then just give quick blasts of air and spray the tank with water containing a bit of dish detergent. The bubbles show the exact location of any leak and it takes very little pressure to make the bubbles form.
Pete
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Mike,
Filling with water is the very best way as water is pretty incompressible so it cannot store lots of energy so when the part fails it is not a real big bang. Submerging in water is also standard practice for this type of testing as it contain what ever bang does occur. Another option for providing the pressure is to use a high pressure water pressure washer. The one I have will go to 2500 psi and it has a pressure control valve so you can slowly increase the pressure. The up side of using a pressure washer is that there is no air involved so you only have water under compression. There is some "capacitance" from the expansion of the hose but it is pretty small. I have been contemplating doing some hydro forming of small sheet metal parts and plan to use my pressure washer as the pressure source.
When you do it take a video, it may be fun to watch! Good luck.
One other thing is not to do it at all as the part you are building sounds pretty stout. I have seen many fabricated aluminum manifolds that take several bar of inlet pressure that do not fail and they are not even close to being as strong as what you are describing.
Rex
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Another consideration is that pressure vessels do a lot better if they are spherical or cylindrical with curved ends. Flat sides and corners are asking for stress concentrations and possible trouble. Reinforcement at openings is also a good idea.
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Mike, some visuals for IO's point from the FlatCaddy build: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,8271.345.html
Check the next page as well. Remember the pressure affects everything connected to the manifold, not just the manifold!
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Thanks Woody, point taken. :cheers:
I've got part of the top half post curing right now at 60*C.
Tomorrow I'll add the heavy layers and vacuum the piece.
I'll have pics with a report. :cheers: :cheers:
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Wilson Manifolds is selling 105mm Throttle bodies some with the IAD block off.
Which one would suit my application?.
I like the unit that bolts on out back and has the V band up front but the IAD is new to me.
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My Carbon plenum is taking shape.
I've got the top and bottom sections bonded.
It needs some shaping and fettling but I'll be able
to start laying up the multiple layers of Carbon and Kevlar
by the weekend. :cheers:
Pics tomorrow.
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Pics of the top half under construction.
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After multiple layers it went into the vacuum bag and then you just
wait for the part to cure.
The little spots are the excess resin that gets pulled through the perforated film.
Pull vacuum too early and you'll get a pump full of goo and blocked connectors. :evil:
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After the part cured I bonded it to the base.
Some beefing up in the critical areas and then I'll be able to
lay up the good stuff. 14 layers I "guesstimate".
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I finally had a few minutes to work on the plenum chamber.
First layer of unidirectional Carbon going on.
Many more to go.
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Wrapping a component like this is a PITA but I have no other way.
I bagged it an pulled vacuum. We'll know later today how succesful
my methods were. :cheers:
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I removed the plenum from the vacuum bag
and it looks OK.
The bleeder film is still on the chamber in the photo.
I'm busy post curing the resin and I should have pics of
the part over the weekend.
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I was going to hammer some heavy wall Ally tubing from round to rectangular
for each of the 8 runners.
I did one and it was too time consuming and beyond my capabity so I decided
to produce molds and make the runners in Carbon.
The original is very smooth on the ID. I worked it with flapper wheels to a mirror
finish. The OD has hammer marks etc so I'll use some filler and get to work. :dhorse:
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The tooling is complex but it has to be done.
I see a four part mold. 2 inner, 2 outer halves.
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My buddy Ian popped around for a visit yesterday and saw my "wannabee" complex runners.
He asked why I needed to go from round on one end to radiused rectangle on the other??????.
Silly me. :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Why?. Why not just go rectangular all the way?. I'll be making changes.
This is what happens when you lock yourself up in the shop and don't see other humans for weeks on end!!!!!!. :-D
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We've all been there Mike. Brainstorming with others is a very valuable tool. They don't even have to understand what you're doing. Sometimes a totally different perspective brings out totally different ideas. :-o :-o :-o :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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My buddy Ian popped around for a visit yesterday and saw my "wannabee" complex runners.
He asked why I needed to go from round on one end to radiused rectangle on the other??????.
Silly me. :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Why?. Why not just go rectangular all the way?. I'll be making changes.
This is what happens when you lock yourself up in the shop and don't see other humans for weeks on end!!!!!!. :-D
Staring time. There is no substitute for staring time. And remember, no science is better than bad science....... dometime we so wrapped up that we forget the basics.....
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Thanks James and Pete. You're both so right!.
My current design looks good but to actually produce the parts
is a PITA.
I can go from the current 63mm ID on the round side to 80.
That will make removing the part from the mold simple.
Attaching the Carbon runners to the manifold creates another
problem so I was thinking of making a wooden buck and shaping
the parts (2) for each runner in Aluminium and get Dunc to weld
them.
Nothing comes easy and I need to take a step back on this. PATIENCE!!!!!
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190217/09457950af4ba0732ffc48db99fe5df3.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190217/866127dc9c018d8ff5ab43f14c8a05c6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190217/504034f8c9b8cdc83fd2f147ab44a6ca.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190217/0ec945538f50fb05b850557b4dab71aa.jpg)
I built this intake last year. It was my first sheet metal intake. It was not hard to reshape the tubing to fit in the the square intake. I think it was easier than trying to make them square all the way and I think it flows better. On turbo stuff, the simulation says that a little taper on the runners helps power.
Notice that I built up the entrance to the runners with weld then radius them with die grinder. It was a good exercise for my fabrication skills.
Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
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Nice job, Rob.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Rob, that came out great.
Looks awesome brother. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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A paper on tapered runner design. http://engine.osu.edu/ASJP/JP/J72.pdf (http://engine.osu.edu/ASJP/JP/J72.pdf)