Landracing Forum
Tech Information => EFI Questions => Topic started by: tauruck on February 18, 2015, 11:00:41 PM
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I've been looking at throttle bodies.
Nothing available here in 101mm.
To import one at our current exchange (11.8:1) rate plus shipping is crazy. 4,500 bucks in our money.
I don't know much about them but they seem pretty simple to machine.
I have someone with CAD and CNC who could machine one from billet.
He's done a few already.
You all say the only dumb question...........
Go or no go?.
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We built a 4" throttle body 30 years ago for an alcohol big block and it worked well. Forge ahead Mike. :-D :-D 8-)
Pete
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Why do you want 4" throttle bodies on 351 cubes? A couple of GM or Ford bodies should be plenty big enough for your application.
Sid.
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I've been looking at throttle bodies.
Nothing available here in 101mm.
To import one at our current exchange (11.8:1) rate plus shipping is crazy. 4,500 bucks in our money.
I don't know much about them but they seem pretty simple to machine.
I have someone with CAD and CNC who could machine one from billet.
He's done a few already.
You all say the only dumb question...........
Go or no go?.
I've got 2 of them packed away some where in the shop. Tried to use in front of centrifugal blowers but caused oil
to get sucked through seals.
Their 4 inch and I have to look up how much I paid for a price. More to them than meets the eye,
Could you explain that exchange rate? If something cost $100 U.S. it cost you $1180? If you made 11.8 times an hour
I guess it would be all right. How much is a beer :-D
JL222
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jl222, a beer would cost you less than $1.
All the tourists rate our beer as awesome.
A bottle of J&B would be $12.
A MT 30" LSR tire would cost me about 12 grand landed.
The importer charges about double the product value depending on weight vs volume.
Sid, I'' email you on that advice you gave.
Pete, as always you always put a positive spin on things and every time I heed your advice
I come out a winner. :cheers:
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Mike...Rich Fox (on here) has used T Bird Throttle bodies on his Four Bangers for years, and swears by them. He might be worth asking a few questions to as well. Although Sid`s head is so full of useful (less?) mechanical Knowledge, he`ll probably know where there is a free example of the setup you need, and he`ll know a cheap way to mail it to you.... :-D
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LOL, I guess I've taken dumpster diving to a new level! :roll:
I have common rail Cummins throttle bodies on my liner with 130mm Garrett's & 600+ cubes. Removed the stepper motors & made a throttle arm for them.
Cadillac Northstar will be plenty big for ya Mike. Look at what you have in the junkyards down there, no need to be any bigger than the plumbing.
Sid.
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Ron's Racing makes a 4 inch TB and a 4.100. Around $1900 US at the factory. Largest stock TB I have ever seen is the Ford Lighting. But I don't remember how big. I bought and sold one for $100. I don't see why you couldn't make your own. I made a rectangular TB for the Nissan V6 we had in Jacks 788 car. Fit under the shell Easy to make. Jack makes TBs all the time.
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We have a scrap yard here called Denver Truck.
I'll go have a look and take photos as well.
You guys will be shocked at the amount of wrecks.
You'll think to yourselves that there can't even be that many trucks in SA!.
If I had Sid to go with me it would be easy to locate said TB.
Sid I know you're a damn recluse as well but you need to come down to the
Southern Hemisphere again. We'll really look after you here. :-D
I don't even know what to ask for. Sid, give me a starting point please?.
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First off, what size tubing are you using for your cold pipes? So long as the TB's are that size or a little larger they will be good. Anything V6 or V8 should be a prospect, some of the older Volvo & Saab turbo's had a big muther on them too. If the cold pipes aren't any bigger than 2 1/4" id, you might want to look at an EFI 460 Ford. They have a two barrel TB that would be as slick as snot & you wouldn't have to phuck with linkages plus they have a TPS & IAC built in. You don't really need an IAC, you can set up idle on the stop adjuster for a race application.
What are you doing for the manifold, you doing a 4 barrel & a transition or the bottom of a tunnel ram or WTF? :-D :?
Sid.
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We don't have any big block EFI Fords here. This is Africa.
The only V8s here in quantity are Bavarian Murder Weapons and MB.
My cold pipes are 92mm ID and the manifold is a custom unit we're
busy on that runs 16 x 2200cc Bosch injectors. Don't ask. :roll: :-o
My turbo guys are supplying the shopping list and I'm having stuff machined according to the
requirements.
I was thinking a collector going into a single TB.
Buying spares here from wrecking yards these days is a joke.
They want to sell the whole motor so getting a TB on its own won't happen.
I'm going to ask my mate Kyle about TBs, maybe he's got a solution.
Thanks Sid. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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A problem you "might" run into with twins feeding a single TB & tall gears in a liner, is compressor surge creating a cold pipe pulse. This can stall one compressor then the drive pressure will bring it to life again & stall the other one & now they are fighting each other& the engine becomes a pig. Running two seperate systems to the pressure box prevents this. If you're running small turbos & gating them off early, it probably won't be a problem for you.
It's not an issue with drag racing or boats where thay go right to the top end of the rev range & stay there.
Sid.
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OK, two TBs it is. I'll find something and show you before I buy (build).
Thanks Sid. :cheers:
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Two throttle bodies with effectively one into four for each one should give you easier availability and fabrication and better distribution of the mixture into the engine. Sounds like a win, win ,win to me! :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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Pete, I can be a very funny guy sometimes!!!.
In this case I'm A CLOWN. Barnum & Bailey certified. :-D :-D :-D
I was measuring the turbo inlet........ :?
The side I should have measured is 80mm and there are TBs available here.
I started fabricating a plug for the top of the plenum.
If I get this right the SCTA/landracing.com will have to give me a cap of some kind.
Maybe Black and Blue?????.
The tie in between the manifold runners, venturis, plenum base and fuel rail will
boggle the minds of all those European designers with no respect for the poor
fool that has to work on the stuff.
I'm up against it here.
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My cold pipes are 92mm ID and the manifold is a custom unit we're
busy on that runs 16 x 2200cc Bosch injectors. Don't ask. :roll: :-o
Maybe I read this wrong? 16 2200cc injectors will support north of 5000 HP .... That's a lot of boost!
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Guys the turbo thing is not my game.
The guru said 16 injectors????
I'll check with him today and revert.
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Maybe I read this wrong? 16 2200cc injectors will support north of 5000 HP .... That's a lot of boost!
5000 hp on gas at .6 bsfc maybe. It'd support half that power level on alcohol running at .55 lambda which is common for boosted motors.
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I went out with this Russian chic named Lambda for a while, she was a blower! :wink:
Sid.
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My cold pipes are 92mm ID and the manifold is a custom unit we're
busy on that runs 16 x 2200cc Bosch injectors. Don't ask. :roll: :-o
Maybe I read this wrong? 16 2200cc injectors will support north of 5000 HP .... That's a lot of boost!
It will be 8 injectors. Funny how no one remembers who told me 16. Glad we cleared it up.
Thanks Ransom T, I could have still been in the dark. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I'm busy on stuff. :evil:
I'm no engine designer but I do a good job assembling them.
My mate Derrick is 72 years old and I follow his advice. He's my go to
guy but turbo isn't his thing.
I have two options on my new plenum design. I can go with or without
trumpets. I'm thinking they might not be necessary with the turbo application
but I have the molds and the means to do them.
I've attached two pics, one is more complicated and I need the experts to advise
on what route I should take?.
Thanks in advance.
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There is an older book "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell ISBN-0-8376-0160-1 that has a lot of info about throttle bodies and setting up a turbo system.
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Bo, I live in Africa. I can't even find the Yellow Pages here. :-D
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I'm busy on stuff. :evil:
I'm no engine designer but I do a good job assembling them.
My mate Derrick is 72 years old and I follow his advice. He's my go to
guy but turbo isn't his thing.
I have two options on my new plenum design. I can go with or without
trumpets. I'm thinking they might not be necessary with the turbo application
but I have the molds and the means to do them.
I've attached two pics, one is more complicated and I need the experts to advise
on what route I should take?.
Thanks in advance.
Mike,
Adding the trumpets might increase airflow a "bit", BUT, they will definitely change the intake runner length. If the "plain" plenum has "generous" radii at the entry to the runners, the flow difference might be "minimal".
What I think you should do is:
Measure the total intake runner length for both scenarios, accurately. You want to measure it at the port centerline. Calculate which length is a "better" match for the rpm range you intend to use for your engine. And yes, engine geometry is a factor here as well.
VERY generally: Longer length, better at lower rpm. Shorter length, better for higher rpm. Unless the lengths are DRASTICALLY different, there is probably only a modest difference here.
From a practical standpoint, the plain plenum is easier & simpler. I would use it if it was close on tuned length. And I suspect Dynoroom would agree with me, but it wouldn't hurt if he would chime in with his thoughts.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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From what I have read, I would be more concerned about how you are going to introduce the air from the intercooler to your creation. Tons of folks have found that a good single plane manifold, converted to EFI ---enables them to turn the velocity into pressure without creating UNKNOWN currents and eddies inside the manifold, that can cause cylinders to be to rich or lean. YMMV -- this is my opinion reinforced from many conversations with GM engineers when I was a Product Trainer for them.
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Opinions will vary widely on intake manifold type & construction for a blown application. But after all the smoke settles I've seen some real POS intake systems run very well. In the end, it will all come down to packaging, followed by price & what's available to construct what you need.
I like to use the correct runner length if I can (calculations for this are easy to find on line) & prefer a plenum type intake as opposed to a converted single plane manifold. That being said single plane intakes work very well & are very cost effective.
Here are some pictures showing stock type TPI intake where the runner lengths required are fairly long (12+") & was constructed this way to achieve the needed hood clearance along with a single plane & fabricated manifolds. Ultimately it's up to you to decide on the type that will fit your budget, power requirements, & CAR!
Good Luck.
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Here are a couple more pictures, the last 2 are manifolds I designed & built.
Lots more of manifolds in use at the salt too if interested....
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Thanks guys, Mike, my design is a combination of the two last photos you posted.
Like you all said, it's about the packaging. The subject will drive one nuts.
I posted pics somewhere on my build diary of the lower half of the plenum.
Got to fabricate a "lid" and then check how it all fits. :roll:
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:cheers: :cheers:
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The original base is OK width wise but too short.
I made it thinking I was going to use the long shaft
distributor.
The front two runners would have to be angled back
so it will be easier to get the MSD crank trigger set up
with the short shaft distributor.
New plenum base and lid coming up.
With the bits set up as they are I'll be able to route
the air intake tubes over the top of the plenum box.
I've got a gazillion options from the air boxes I designed
for the local Trans Am cars.
Oval tubes, round tubes and a combination of both. (molds that is).
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Like you all said, it's about the packaging. The subject will drive one nuts.
"Packaging is everything." Keith Duckworth, circa 1966
Words to live by . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
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All this science is way over my head. But it did make me feel that I should be doing something. The head showed a few small cracks at the exhaust flange side and Zenon took it to work to weld it and machine it flat again. That was about 5 weeks ago. meanwhile I got a new lens in my right eye. needed to renew my driving license. Should be a piece of cake. Going on 4 weeks and the eye still hasn't healed. But anyway Here is what I did to pass the time and make it look like I had a plan.
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HP books Engine Airflow by LR.com member Harold Bettes; on page 107 shows some very interesting picts. of manifolds by Marcella Manifolds-- they have a website. There is a picture of a "drastically modified" SBF single plane manifold.
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Once again posting pictures has proven more difficult that making the part. Here I hope is the other picture. If nothing else it looks faster.
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Rich, hopefully you can get your body to do as go a job as you have on those TB---geat work and get on with the "GOOD HEALING" you can Git'er Done!!! :cheers:
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I was going to just bolt the injectors on and run them. But Mikes pictures made me feel like to much of an underachiever. And i was bored.
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Get well Rich, You do some awesome fabricating.
Thanks for the pics. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: