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Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Pickle on February 07, 2015, 08:10:00 PM

Title: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on February 07, 2015, 08:10:00 PM: Well its been about a year now since I first found this site. I introduced myself then but have been silent since. Between the build diaries and the tech section there is such a wealth of information to sift through it has taken me this long to get through it all. Because its been so long Ill do a quick recap so there is no need to find my original post.

First for the formal stuff. I have a bachelors in physics from UCLA and a masters in astronautical engineering from USC (think rockets and satellites). Informally I am a contractor by trade and build cars on the side. This will be my first attempt at this type of car but its been a long time passion. I finished up a project about a year ago and have been taking care of the honey do list that kept growing during that project, but now its time to start another. I have a great wife she "gets it" and supports every project I do. I also am blessed with four kids all girls, our oldest is 10 and our youngest is 2. As a result of our large family I have more ingenuity and skill than finances and this project will reflect that.

Now for the good stuff. Armed with a rulebook and the basics I picked up here I went in search of a tank. After many months of looking most of the tanks I found were close to what I needed but nothing really fit the bill. Finally a few weeks ago I found my girl, she is a transfer tank from a Douglas AD-1. The AD-1 or Able Dog was first developed in 1947 and flew during the Korean war. Apparently it was a big nasty thing. I read it had a habit of consuming a gallon of oil an hour during flight. Anyway the tank is 300 gal and was belly mounted. It measures 165 inches long and 31 inches at its widest. Its widest point lands at the 40% cord point and its completely symmetric about its axis.

After a couple weeks of drinking beers with friends looking at the tank we have finally developed our basic plan. This decision wasn't easy to make but there were a few things that made it easier. Keeping in mind the aforementioned imbalance of ingenuity and money we started digging around to see what we had on hand. I have a few bits of winters rear parts and I think I can get one together with a couple of small purchases. A friend has a complete 49 chevy front end I will be chopping up for parts, and another will be donating a flathead block and M20 trans. So the decision has been made to run her as XF/GL. We also made the decision to build it to fit other physically larger drivetrain combinations in the future. I am a measure twice cut once kind of guy so I'm not going to rush the initial design phase, we are currently having the suspension/no suspension debate.

I can't tell you how pumped we are for this project and we look forward to sharing it with you guys. I am smart enough to know there are many things I don't know and I look forward to learning from those here. I am in So Cal and would love to be involved with the community here. By the way Pickle or James is fine.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: manta22 on February 07, 2015, 08:59:12 PM: James;

Wasn't the AD-1 called a "Skyraider", built by Douglas?

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on February 07, 2015, 09:38:30 PM: That is the one Neil. I found this quote about the plane and pilots that flew them. I think its fitting for our group.

What was it like to be an Able Dog pilot? Wading through the rivalry between the attack and fighter communities we think Art "Swede" Hedberg, a former fighter pilot, said it best in his description of the men and the plane known as The Able Dogs:

As aristocratic, elegant, and elite fighter pilots, my mates and I always tended to avoid association with Able Dog drivers. For one thing their military appearance and grooming habits were atrocious! Their flights suits were always sodden and black with oil, grease, and other foul smelling liquids. Their aircraft were always spotted back on the aft part of the flight deck in the "cheap seats" where the snipes blew tubes over them on a regular basis and they were always filthy with stack soot and clinkers. Everything they were around soon became grimy and disgusting and their ready room looked and smelled like a garage heap. On top of that they were loathe to bathe and carried their own atmosphere, like a large bubble, around with them wherever they went causing more genteel folk to veer out of their way, their sensibilities deeply offended. What is worse, Able Dog drivers prided themselves in these disgusting habits!

In addition to this they were unfair and unscrupulous in the air. They were fond of grinding around at low altitude and when they saw one of our gallant fighters start to make a run on them they immediately turned on a dime and positioned themselves directly under the heroic fighter pilot who, upon being pulled vertical, directly saw nothing but water in his windshield and was forced to frantically pull out with frazzled nerves, sweating heavily, and with pucker string two-blocked. This maneuver was a killer. And the Able Dog drivers gloried in this un-sportsmanlike conduct!!, gleefully sneering to themselves and applying spit wetted fingers to the insides of canopies to mark up points. It must be known that I still harbor a deep resentment over this ungentlemanly and scandalous behavior.

Despite it's lack of speed the old Able Dog could surely take care of itself and I always marveled at the veritable junkyard of nasty stuff it could haul around to drop on the bad guys.

~ Art Hedberg

That sums up my group of friends quite nicely. for those interested in the sky raider this link has almost too much information.

http://www.abledogs.com

Interesting thing Neil, I got my tank in your neck of the woods. I picked it up at Marana Regional Airport just east of Tuscon.

James
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Elmo Rodge on February 07, 2015, 10:11:27 PM: Welcome James. Have fun here. It sounds like you are capble of that. :roll: I too run XF/GL. The more, the merrier. Wayno
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: tauruck on February 07, 2015, 10:15:15 PM: Hey James, welcome.
I'd like to wish you all the best with your project
and I'm looking forward to watching the progress.

Have a blast. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Mike.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: manta22 on February 07, 2015, 10:19:53 PM: James;

Yes, the Skyraider was able to carry an amazing amount of ordnance. Marana Airport also has a few Skyhawks (I think) in various states of disarray.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: SPARKY on February 07, 2015, 11:17:29 PM: Flying dump trucks
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: tauruck on February 07, 2015, 11:30:40 PM: The rear section of the canopy would make a cool
liner canopy if turned around. :-D

Just thinking, just thinking.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: fordboy628 on February 08, 2015, 09:11:10 AM: Pickle,

Welcome to the insanity! Lots of guys on the board race flathead power, so there is lots of advice about how to avoid pitfalls. Good luck with your project.

BTW, everybody loves pictures, and a picture is worth a thousand words.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on February 16, 2015, 09:49:54 PM: Well between building a new fence and sanding and staining my deck this past weekend I did manage to get some work done on the tank. I started stripping parts off and making measurements trying to get a feel for the layout. I picked up the chevy front end and low and behold its not a stocker. It seems he forgot to mention it has speedway spindles and discs. Parts are out getting hot tanked. The axle is a beat up old drop tube that will be stored for another project. We intend to build our own straight tube axle.

So we are now debating the merits of breaks on the front vs back vs four corners. I have seen it discussed on here before, any conclusions reached. I know many run rear only with great success. Anyone run front only? I realize its counter intuitive but when setting up four wheel discs in the past we always set them to lock up the front first to keep the rear in line. It seems the same would apply here.

Another concern we have is with the winters rear. We would like to get the rear end as far back as possible for obvious reasons and as a result the mounting points will narrow to the point that we are considering bolting to the center section. We are a bit concerned about deflection in the axle tubes and horns. Anyone with experience here? As of now we are assuming 1200 to 1500 lbs on the rear for first pass design purposes.

Picture are incoming by weeks end.

James
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Dr Goggles on February 17, 2015, 05:12:37 AM: Hey Hey!

I hadn't seen this. Welcome aboard Pickles.

When I was passing around the first draft of our tank a guy here in Australia, John Lynch, who has a Keith Black powered 301mph tank said "hard on both ends I see".....

I replied "well we've had all sorts of advice John, and none of it has been the same".

He looked at me with a sort of startled look on his face and said "Yep, you're on your own aren't ya"

We then quickly agreed, although our aims, and our circumstances (resources) were entirely different, that we were entirely on the same page, to an outsider tanks look like much of a muchness, to the insiders they are all different, totally different.

The most important thing if you're building a tank is to finish. Anything that gets in the way of that is unimportant. If you get up on your hind legs and say "I won't be happy unless this thing does 3 billion mph" or whatever you're kidding yourself, build it, run it with a dog motor then start the chit chat because by then you'll have the secret knowledge.

My tips.

1./Flange the frame so it can be taken apart.
2./ No suspension.
3./ GM 10 bolt rear.
4./ rear drums.

Watching with interest and a big thumbs up...... :cheers:
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: RichFox on February 17, 2015, 09:30:54 AM: i use drum brakes on both ends except my roadster which came with rear only brakes and stayed that way. Works fine but if i am driving the car, I like the feel of 4 wheel brakes. I consider disk brakes unnecessary drag.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: tauruck on February 17, 2015, 05:49:07 PM: The belly tanks are such cool, complicated projects and I love them.
I showed my friend a few pics and he says some guy has four belly
tanks on the roof of his business. He tells the locals they're bombs. :-D
Willie did tell what planes these tanks come from but I forgot.
We'll be doing a recce soon though.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: dw230 on February 17, 2015, 06:35:25 PM: Rule 3.W, page 42, last sentence, 2014 rule book.

.... No front wheel only brake systems are allowed.

You really need a rule book.

DW
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: NathanStewart on February 18, 2015, 01:57:43 AM: Strange… under 70, wants to build tank powered by flathead. Spent too much time in space? :-D

Anyways, my best advice since you're a local is don't cut or weld or do a damn thing until you go to the first El Mirage meet in May. You need to look at cars. Take advantage of being close to the action.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: awelker on February 18, 2015, 07:48:01 AM: Take Nathan's advice and get to a meet to look at some cars, and study the rule book thoroughly before you do anything. Also remember the rule book is the minimum requirement, when my own safety is concerned I prefer to overbuild.

Building a tank to meet the rules is a lesson in packaging, especially if you plan not to stretch the tank.

On the budget side, I had a number in my mind when I started that I thought was reasonable, probably spent at least 3 times that initially and am currently in process on more upgrades.

Best of luck and don't be afraid to ask questions.

Andy
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on February 18, 2015, 05:06:06 PM: I have been to EM a few times in the past and I plan on it this year too. In the past its just been to spectate but this year I'm taking notes. Hopefully I will get the chance to meet a few of you there.

DW... I do have a rule book but somehow I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. Its been a while since I carefully read through it and apparently I need to do it again.

As an engineer I am well aware of the importance of planning. I don't intend to cut or weld anything until I have finished my cad work and an initial mock up. I have been spending hours out there looking, measuring, and trying different ideas. At first the tank looked huge, almost hard to fill. Now its starting to seem like everything will barely fit. Im sure by the end Ill be lucky to squeeze it all in, something like 10 gallons of "stuff" in a 5 gallon bucket. I built a temporary mock up table and I'm currently playing with layout. Im leaning toward a space frame with four main longitudinal members supported by transverse hoops to maximize the interior space, but its still unclear how it will work. I have no plans to stretch the tank but I did have a notion to make it sectional, as Dr Goggles suggested, if I can pull it off. BTW I, like Dr Goggles, subscribe to the keep it low philosophy. I want to keep the Cg low so I intend to keep the axles on the body center line and cut the bottom. I have access to CFD programs at USC so once I get a wire frame worked up Ill have some grad students run it through the program.

I know it may seem strange to want to build something like this at my age Nathan, but I think I may be a bit unusual. My newest car is a 1965 dodge and I always appreciated the simplicity in the design and engineering of classics. I would rather dump 50 grand into a classic than go out and buy a new car for the same amount. Besides there is a certain pride in knowing every nut, bolt, clip, and span of metal in the car you drive. Also... chicks dig fast old cars. :wink:

James
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: tauruck on February 18, 2015, 10:31:02 PM: James, we're all strange so you're in good company. :-D

Nothing wrong with old cars either.

You'll have the time of your life on this project and as Andy said, ask questions.

The best move you've made so far was joining the forum.

The members here are special. :cheers:
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on December 17, 2015, 10:49:42 PM: I realize its been a while but I'm still at it. After February the tax man came and the budget has been tight but I have been busy. I live in a small 1950s style house in LA and I am limited as far as enclosed or covered car space. I was originally going to build this in a car port on the side of my house but with the salt air around here I decided against the bare metal outside. I moved my dodge outside and the tank took the one car garage.

The garage floor is horrible. Im sure it was tailgated in the 50s and finished with a 2x4. I built a table to work on out of TJI joists spaced 10 inches on center with 1 1/8 ply on the top. Those TJIs can take a few thousand pounds each and are very straight. I put a sheet of 1/2 steel on the top 4 foot wide by 14 foot long, one piece. I screwed it down to take out the wiggle and leveled the table to within a 1/16 corner to corner. I scribed a deep line down the center for reference and a square line at one end to pull numbers off of.

With a good surface to work off of I started by scribing the outline of the tank. I cut the tank in half and found the cleanest edge to scribe. I went down to HF and got one of their tubing rollers. That thing is the biggest POS I have ever used. Im sure it works fine for EMT or small thin stuff but I'm using 1 3/4 .188 wall mild steel and boy let me tell you. It took almost a day a bar to curve them to fit the inside of the tank. I ultimately had to redesign the HF roller to work but thats another story. Eventually I had four bars curved to match the outside of the tank they all turned out to be within a 16th of each other. I also cut the bottom of the tank and scribed a line for the bottom tubes and rolled them as well.

Now I said before this will be rigid front and back. For the front I cut out a circle out of 1/2 steel that fit the tank where I wanted the front tube axle to sit. I tacked it up in place after drilling some holes for the axle mounts. Im not sold on these mounts. I had them laying around and at the time seemed ok. They are leaf spring brackets out of 1/4 inch and have 4 9/16 bolts each. I was going to bridge between them with 1/4 plate to tie them together to keep them from bending during side load. Has anyone used a set up like this? I wanted to have vertical adjustability but with this setup I won't. Not sure what I will do here yet. I am open to suggestions.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on December 17, 2015, 10:54:34 PM: On to the rear. I used another 1/2 plate for the back and made some brackets to solid mount the QC to the plate. The brackets themselves are made from 1/2 plate and bolt to the 1/2 plate on the frame with 6 9/16 bolts each. These are solid as i can make them i don't think the will fail. I am however still considering running some doth of diagonal brace to limit movement from side loading. Simple is better.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on December 17, 2015, 11:04:09 PM: With the front and rear somewhat sorted and the 1/2 "bulkhead" plates takes in place on the table I started positioning the tubes between them. Starting with the mid tube then the bottom. The mid tube is simple it sits right at the seam on the tank. The bottom tube was a bit more difficult. First it is on a slight incline and at the front needed to come up to follow the curve of the tank. I rolled the tubes long and after measuring and messing with it for hours they were cut where a bend up needed to be made. Once I had the correct angle figured out I had two tubes bent to suit. I sleeved the tube joint and made holes for rosette welds. Those two bars took the better part of a day to get just right.

Oh it might be good to mention that at this point the only things tacked in place are the tubes to the "bulkheads" the front and rear axles are just in place. After all the cage and frame welding is done then I will attach the axles once the twisting from welding is done.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on December 17, 2015, 11:12:04 PM: Next I installed the last two long top tubes and the main hoop. It took some time to make sure I had the required clearances. My friend and I took turns getting in and out with various driving positions to make sure we had it right. Once we were satisfied we had enough room behind the hoop for the mechanical bits and in front for the fleshy bits we made a pattern for the main and front hoops to suit the required clearances. This also set the location for the top tube as the width of the hoop where it meets the tube was unknown until then. When I envisioned doing this I rolled the top tube to match the body and simply rotated it about the center of the body to find the best position. I wanted to keep the main hoop as low as possible and I think we did well.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on December 17, 2015, 11:19:49 PM: After the main hoop was positioned we sorted out the front hoop and started the notching game to fill in the other bits. Apparently I don't always learn from my mistakes and purchased a HF notcher. Total waste. I had to completely rework that thing too and now it works ok. Its good for a first rough cut but I still get better results with a chop saw and a grinder. I am a bit of a perfectionist with these joints. I posted a picture above and I have maintained that quality on them all. It takes a little more time but its with it to save my a** later. Here are some other pictures. Currently I have about 20 more bars to fit and the number drops every weekend.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: kiwi belly tank on December 18, 2015, 01:17:00 AM: Remember you need to get in & then out of there in a hurry with all your $hit on, that tube right in front of the driver might make that tough. A leg net & swing out steering can make a big difference there.
You probably should feed the driver more, he's as thin as a board! :-D
Sid.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Rex Schimmer on December 18, 2015, 05:12:53 PM: Pickle,
Great start! Love your work table too. Not many tools, especially metal working tools, from HF work with out lots of rework, as you are finding out. Some times it just makes more sense to go to the better tools and save a lot more time for working on the car. Look at this web site for some things that make HF tools work better. http://www.swagoffroad.com/

With both ends being solid mount you do need at least one end that can be adjusted vertically just to be able to get the corner weights close. If you make things pretty square, which it looks like you are doing, the making the required adjustments, which should be small, on one end should work. On the front axle if you are going to weld the axle to the mounts you have shown make sure that you use at least .188 wall or even better .250 wall tubing, min 2 inch OD. Tubing with high cyclic loads, like a solid mount front axle, like to break at the welds.

Rex
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Glen on December 18, 2015, 06:53:47 PM: Pickle,before you weld in the roll bar and all controls etc. Try everything for your fit complete with fire suit and helmet. That includes arm restraints. This critical and you have to do a bailout for the inspectors. There are several people in your area to help you with any questions.You are going the right directions with your build. :cheers:
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Stainless1 on December 19, 2015, 12:54:05 AM: Sound advice from Glen... the first cross top bar forward of the cage looks really close, maybe pic angle but hang all your parts and dress up before your finish weld.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on December 19, 2015, 11:40:39 AM: Yeah we have the same idea. My buddy who is bigger than me can get in and out ok all dressed up. You have to slide your a** forward then sit up and slide back ect. He thinks its fine but I told him try that when your a** is on fire. I was thinking to put two double sheer pins on either side of that tube and hinge the whole assembly up toward the front. I don't want to cut it until I have the steering started so nothing binds. I would just feel better with something solid between the side tubes there, I don't want any weak spots.

Rex, the front tube is indeed 2 inch 1/4 inch wall. I was thinking about a set of brackets to rotate the mounts horizontal and attach to the bottom of the bracket so the axle can be shimmed on both sides for corner weighting. Not sure just how to do that yet, it will come to me.

James
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: bearingburner on December 19, 2015, 08:31:04 PM: I feel you should carefully review your decision to run solid axles. If you run El Mariage I am told that the surface can deteriorate quickly and from what I read Bonneville salt has not been good for several years. Here in the East those running solid axles complain about the smoothness of the asphalt and concrete runways. If you run some suspension
you can tighten down to solid and then free it up if you need to.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 20, 2015, 01:54:52 AM: This is based on experience with designing stuff the highway department maintenance crews welds together. I have not built a car frame so it is not gospel. Circumferential welds or gross cross-sectional changes are avoided on critical cantilever members under cyclic loading. This is engineering talk for axle tubes. A saddle is welded to the frame and the tube is welded to the saddle. This reinforces the tube, spreads the loads out, and avoids circumferential welds.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on December 23, 2015, 04:41:03 PM: The decision to run solid front and rear was made after a lot of back and forth between us. It was not a decision made lightly. The sprung vs. unsprung debate has played out on these boards more than a few times and we have heard and carefully weighed the various positions. For us this is the right decision. If we find later that we need to change it, we will, but to start we are solid.

Wobbly, are you referring to the rear brackets? When we had winters redo our rear we talked for some time about how it would mount. We were advised that this configuration would be more than adequate. The tubes were chosen for this application. If I'm not seeing something please let me know.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: sailingadventure on February 04, 2016, 03:54:13 PM: Looks like a great start. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 04, 2016, 08:34:32 PM: Pickle,
You might consider using Strange Engineering funny car spindles, they are made so that the axle boss can be moved up and down with relationship to the spindle. These are used by the funny car people to adjust corner weight as their frames are not flexi flyers like top fuel. If you would want a very small amount of wheel travel (probably less than 1/8 inch) you could substitute belville washers in place of some spacers and you would get some spring action. Almost any motion, even with belville washers, will greatly reduce the shock loads that your welded axle will see. I have attached a pic out of their catalog.

Rex
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on April 15, 2016, 07:35:04 PM: Time for an update.

I finally have a roller!! its so good to get that thing on the ground. Its amazing how different it looks low, I got used to seeing it up on the table. I also got the engine and trans in.

In regard to the front suspension I rebuilt the whole thing and set the axle under a mount so I can adjust left and right weights. Now the fun stuff starts time for the bits in the back. Here are some pictures for ya.

James
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on April 15, 2016, 07:36:54 PM: And some more.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: kiwi belly tank on April 15, 2016, 08:49:26 PM: Definitely a stout piece! What's the rotary content plan?
Sid.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Dr Goggles on April 15, 2016, 10:38:44 PM: Quote from: Pickle on April 15, 2016, 07:35:04 PM
Time for an update.

I finally have a roller!! its so good to get that thing on the ground. Its amazing how different it looks low, I got used to seeing it up on the table. I also got the engine and trans in.

In regard to the front suspension I rebuilt the whole thing and set the axle under a mount so I can adjust left and right weights. Now the fun stuff starts time for the bits in the back. Here are some pictures for ya.

James

The day we hoisted ours of the jig for the first time and put it on the ground I was laughing like a maniac, the other guys were like "what's so funny?"

"LOOK HOW LOW IT IS!!!!!!!!

it's a fantastic feeling..... looks great BTW.

Goggles
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on April 15, 2016, 10:51:18 PM: Yep so its officially a rotary. The flathead that was going to be donated to us was built and sold so we had this in the back of the garage and figured what the hell. With the 2X swept volume it puts us in F/BGL. I guess we will see what we can do.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: BHR301 on April 15, 2016, 11:58:05 PM: With a rotary nobody will ever mistake your car for another when the engine is running.. :-D

Bill
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: kiwi belly tank on April 16, 2016, 01:40:19 AM: Yep, them there metric water pumps have their own sound alright! :-o
Sid.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on April 16, 2016, 10:32:38 AM: "WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU. SHUT THAT ROTARY OFF!!!"
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Rex Schimmer on April 16, 2016, 01:18:11 PM: What size rotary are you going with? 12A or 13B? I could not see from the pic, is the inlet port in the rotor housing or are they in the side plates. The peripheral style motor plate is the one that makes the big hp. I worked on several IMSA teams back in the early 80s that ran the 12A in the RX7, we did a lot of engine development and actually got around 310 hp at 10500 rpm from our injected motors. I hear that the 13Bs are makeing 340-350 these days. Really looking forward to seeing (and hearing)your car at the 5 mile!

Rex
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Dr Goggles on April 16, 2016, 04:13:41 PM: We nick-named the 13B RX7 that Dave Partridge ran here "Swearing Around Children" because no-one wanted to hear it. It had a megaphone on it just to be sure, if as they say "loud pipes save lives" then that thing should have been capable of bringing people back from the dead.

I just read through this again, wow, we're like lost cousins or something.... There's a lot (for reasons I'm sure you understand) that I like about this car.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on April 17, 2016, 01:00:59 AM: The rotary is a 13b rew from a 97 RX7 from japan. We are plan on running a big single turbo so the output will be around 600 or so. we will see how it goes with what we got. I have built a few rotaries in the past, all in street trim, but they made upwards of 500 at the wheels. With this one ill pull out all the stops so who knows.

Rex, it will most likely use the side ports in the irons. Peripheral ports (PP) work great with an NA set up but with forced induction PP has too much overlap and you loose too much of the intake charge. With a turbo you really only need to do a large street port or a bridge port. Today an NA PP will make 350 or so with injection, where the sky is the limit with forced induction.

Goggles, i get that. I feel like the SOS has inspired a lot of my build. Its such a beautiful car. Like you I feel that design and function can coexist in our builds. I love the way my car looks. If it runs half as good as it looks we have a winner. Honestly a lot of people have been asking, what do you think it will do? I reply with, If it gets down the track I will have a smile on my face. I started this build with only the desire to run at the salt. If I get to do that, it will be worth it. Anything beyond that is gravy.

cheers

James
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Buickguy3 on April 17, 2016, 09:27:36 AM: They ran several Rotarys at the drag races at Seattle International Raceway back in the '70's and they made them pit about a block away from all of the other cars. Talk about discrimination. The word obnoxious comes to mind.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: SPARKY on April 17, 2016, 09:32:34 AM: and here is to GRAVY!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

goes well with coffee early in the morning while visiting with his honor " the MAYOR"
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: tauruck on April 17, 2016, 09:43:07 AM: I'm hard of hearing because of those Rotary motors. Laugh, I don't care, I can't hear you!!!
I'm no expert but 13Bs are suspect IMO.
Eccentric shaft is iffy but maybe Subaru has changed recently. :wink:
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Dr Goggles on April 23, 2016, 11:42:23 PM: Quote from: Pickle on April 17, 2016, 01:00:59 AM
The rotary is a 13b rew from a 97 RX7 from japan. We are plan on running a big single turbo so the output will be around 600 or so. we will see how it goes with what we got. I have built a few rotaries in the past, all in street trim, but they made upwards of 500 at the wheels. With this one ill pull out all the stops so who knows.

Rex, it will most likely use the side ports in the irons. Peripheral ports (PP) work great with an NA set up but with forced induction PP has too much overlap and you loose too much of the intake charge. With a turbo you really only need to do a large street port or a bridge port. Today an NA PP will make 350 or so with injection, where the sky is the limit with forced induction.

Goggles, i get that. I feel like the SOS has inspired a lot of my build. Its such a beautiful car. Like you I feel that design and function can coexist in our builds. I love the way my car looks. If it runs half as good as it looks we have a winner. Honestly a lot of people have been asking, what do you think it will do? I reply with, If it gets down the track I will have a smile on my face. I started this build with only the desire to run at the salt. If I get to do that, it will be worth it. Anything beyond that is gravy.

cheers

James

600+hp?

I'll give you a rough idea of what it'll do, it'll keep you really busy and it'll teach you the idea of restraint until you get it into 3rd or 4th gear, that's what it'll do. At that point I reckon it'll be eating up track at around the rate of about a mile every 15 seconds, or less, that's what it'll do. :wink:
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on June 25, 2016, 01:15:23 AM: So I made to out to El Mirage in June and met quite a few of you in person. Its nice to finally put a face to those I have come to know here on the forums. Most of you I met were aware of this build diary and all of you had the same comment, "post more, and with more detail". I'm a man of few words and I guess I just wait for a large chunk of progress before I post something. So in the spirit of posting more often I will fill you guys in on what has been happening.

When I started this project there were three of us working on the tank. We all bounced ideas off each other and the project was better for it. That was over a year ago and soon after we started one dropped out and it was two. About a month ago my other friend dropped out and now its just me. Im not sure how common this is, but recently I have been looking at the tank thinking "What the F*** am I doing?". Did I bite off too much? Will it ever get done? Self doubt is a bitch. Fortunately I am blessed with the most supporting wife and family. After a long discussion with my wife I am resolved to finish what I have started. I know this is a bit of a personal rambling but I'm sure others have been there. With that said, here is "the plan".

I am pleased to say I have been talking with a guy named Howard Colman. He owns Colman Precision Rotary, and has had three decades of racing experience with rotary motors, and really knows his stuff. He is officially my first sponsor and will be providing the long block for the car. After many lengthly discussions the overall design has been decided. To make 600hp at the wheels I will need around 80 lbs/min of air flow at 30 psi. I have purchased the turbo, it is a Borge Warner S300 SXE 69mm inducer, the largest highest flowing T4 they make. It will flow the required 80 lbs/min at 74% efficiency, with a maximum flow of 105 lbs/min. I will also be using a four barrel throttle body made by E&J, it will provide two 50mm throttle bodies per rotor. It should flow well beyond the 80 lbs/min, closer to the max of 105 lbs/min. The intake manifold has been an issue for me. I have tried 7 different manifolds and they all either hit the roll cage or stick out of the body. As a result I will be making my own manifold. This is new territory for me. I am starting this tomorrow and I will post progress pictures as it comes together. Before some of you ask I have sized the system and analyzed the flow in 2D as a Fanno flow and Rayleigh flow and it is not choked. I had a friend cut the flanges for the intake on a water jet out of 1/2 inch aluminum. I will be using 2 inch OD 11 gauge aluminum tube. I ordered 180 degree bends and a few straight sections. The area of the ports at the block are just slightly smaller than the inside tube area and oval shaped so some forming will be required.

I would like to say... As I sit here drinking some tequila, thinking of my experiences at El Mirage over the last few years, This type of racing is special. Every person I have met has offered their help and advice on my project without judgement. The people associated with this type of racing are different. In other racing series it was competition, here its cooperation. I would like to thank those of you who have been so kind. I am proud to be a land speed racer.

Cheers,

James
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Jack Gifford on June 25, 2016, 02:38:17 AM: quote: "... providing the longblock for the car..."

For a reciprocating-piston engine a "longblock" typically refers to a shortblock (block, crank, pistons, rods, etc.) plus the head(s). What does a Wankel "longblock" consist of? :?
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: kiwi belly tank on June 25, 2016, 08:08:50 AM: That's known as a Wanker. :evil:

For those less knowlegable than others, this might help. :?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanker
Sid.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on June 25, 2016, 11:29:32 AM: Thank you Jack! I opted to use the term "long block" instead of the more common rotary term of keg. I didn't want to confuse anyone who was unfamiliar with the term. It refers to the complete rotating assembly installed in the housings ect. On a rotary this would include the irons, housings, rotors, front cover, flywheel and associated bits. This is the equivalent to a reciprocating engines long block.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Jack Gifford on June 26, 2016, 02:20:18 AM: Thanks for the lexicon of rotary engine terms. That's an engine type I've not touched. Back when I first learned of it in the sixties, I remember trying unsuccessfully to work out the geometry for other than 3-lobe rotor designs- I gave up!
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on July 07, 2016, 07:14:43 PM: Well the intake is coming along nicely. I have roughed it all out and its ready to weld up following some minor tweaking. One issue right off the bat was the runners enter the irons at angles. To compound the problem the top and bottom of the runners in the irons are at different angles. I drew up a quick sketch of the primary and secondary ports in the irons and attached it below.

Additionally the primary and secondary ports are different sizes. The primary port area is 75% of the tube area where the secondary ports are 98%. The stock motors have progressive opening throttle bodies that run only the primary ports up to a certain percentage throttle then open the secondaries past that. I formed both sets of tubes to match the area and angles, this was a lot of work massaging the tubes first into an oval shape then hammer forming to match the top and bottom angles.

Ill be taking it to my welder this weekend as I can't weld aluminum at home.

cheers
james
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: wheelrdealer on July 07, 2016, 09:01:25 PM: James,

That's a great fixture you made to build your intake. Does not look like anything will move around when the welder tacks it up.

BR
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Dr Goggles on March 03, 2017, 02:50:38 PM: Any more news James?

Hard road but a good road building a tank.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: grumm441 on March 05, 2017, 09:53:30 PM: Quote from: Pickle on June 25, 2016, 01:15:23 AM

When I started this project there were three of us working on the tank. We all bounced ideas off each other and the project was better for it. That was over a year ago and soon after we started one dropped out and it was two. About a month ago my other friend dropped out and now its just me. Im not sure how common this is, but recently I have been looking at the tank thinking "What the F*** am I doing?". Did I bite off too much? Will it ever get done? Self doubt is a bitch. Fortunately I am blessed with the most supporting wife and family. After a long discussion with my wife I am resolved to finish what I have started. I know this is a bit of a personal rambling but I'm sure others have been there. With that said, here is "the plan".

I would like to say... As I sit here drinking some tequila, thinking of my experiences at El Mirage over the last few years, This type of racing is special. Every person I have met has offered their help and advice on my project without judgement. The people associated with this type of racing are different. In other racing series it was competition, here its cooperation. I would like to thank those of you who have been so kind. I am proud to be a land speed racer.

Cheers,

James

When you're out on that big white lake, the canopy has just closed, and you feel your push car giving you a shove.
Then it will all make sense
G
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on April 13, 2017, 10:56:02 PM: dang it has been a while...

Well last year was tough and not much has happened since. First the Tax Man came and rained on my parade eating most of my expendable cash. Then my work situation took a nose dive and stretched the family thin. But earlier this year I started a new job (a better job) and finally I think it is safe to spend money and time on this project.

Work is officially recommencing and updates will be inbound shortly!!!

:cheers:
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Dr Goggles on April 14, 2017, 04:54:46 AM: Great to hear. Go for it.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on April 14, 2017, 02:27:02 PM: A key to moving this project forward -

It helps to have other people invested in this. While you have lost two partners, there are dozens of us out here closely watching this project - those who understand the difficulties, the joys, the headaches.

If you discipline yourself to keep those of us who are interested abreast of what you are getting done, be it complaining about waiting for parts, something you goofed up, something that went well, we will become your virtual team.

And when you reach that point when you think you're never going to get it done, you will have posted here everything that you HAVE accomplished, the notes, encouragement and critiques of those who care, and you will find that the review process will pick you up and motivate you to press forward.

I have seen way too many started projects that never turn a wheel.

In the last 10 years, I have taken on two such projects. I've put one on the unsuspecting streets of Milwaukee, and the other in the SCTA-BNI record book.

I'm two for two, and had it not been for my build diary, I'd probably still have more parts in the rafters than on the ground.

If you help yourself, we'll help you help yourself.

Chris
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Peter Jack on April 14, 2017, 02:50:12 PM: Chris, you expressed that so very well. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Thanks!

Pete
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on April 22, 2017, 10:05:22 PM: Well I got back to it over the last two weeks. First order was cleaning the garage, so much piled up stuff. After that I surveyed where I was at. I did get some things done since my last update about the intake. Its welded up and fits perfectly. I purchased the water to air intercooler, radiator, oil cooler, waste gates, intercooler piping, blow off valve, and made 304 flanges for the exhaust. Ill run down the parts list later if anyone is interested.

Today I started work on the turbo manifold. Im using 2 inch 304 sch. 40 pipe and bends. Its a real pain in the a** to work with. I probably could have got by with mild steel but with the high exhaust temps the rotary puts out I figured 304 was cheap insurance. Im about half done with the manifold and should be ready to final weld next weekend.

I also purchased some aluminum sheet to box in the radiator and oil cooler. Before I take the manifold to my welder ill probably try to get those done as well.

Things are certainly getting tight back there. I have been planing out some tank locations and needless to say they will end up with complicated shapes to wrap around things. On the planning side of things one area I have not spent much time on is the section aft of the rear end. I really wanted to run the exhaust back to the center rear of the body and use a hatch like SOS for the chute but I'm not sure if I can make that work, its tight. Anyone have the necessary box volume for the chute if using a hatch? And is the pilot spring loaded? Im not sure I have a good plan for all of that just yet. Advice would be spectacular.

Anyway I am traveling for work for a few day so ill try to get some pictures up in the next couple weeks.

Cheers :cheers:
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Dr Goggles on April 23, 2017, 09:19:38 AM: Yeah we just have a spring drogue,. Works fine, the chute probably needs around 250x250x200mm if you're using a flap or doors you can make those dimensions flatter and wider.
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: tauruck on April 23, 2017, 11:56:23 AM: Quote from: Pickle on April 22, 2017, 10:05:22 PM
Well I got back to it over the last two weeks. First order was cleaning the garage, so much piled up stuff. After that I surveyed where I was at. I did get some things done since my last update about the intake. Its welded up and fits perfectly. I purchased the water to air intercooler, radiator, oil cooler, waste gates, intercooler piping, blow off valve, and made 304 flanges for the exhaust. Ill run down the parts list later if anyone is interested.

Today I started work on the turbo manifold. Im using 2 inch 304 sch. 40 pipe and bends. Its a real pain in the a** to work with. I probably could have got by with mild steel but with the high exhaust temps the rotary puts out I figured 304 was cheap insurance. Im about half done with the manifold and should be ready to final weld next weekend.

I also purchased some aluminum sheet to box in the radiator and oil cooler. Before I take the manifold to my welder ill probably try to get those done as well.

Things are certainly getting tight back there. I have been planing out some tank locations and needless to say they will end up with complicated shapes to wrap around things. On the planning side of things one area I have not spent much time on is the section aft of the rear end. I really wanted to run the exhaust back to the center rear of the body and use a hatch like SOS for the chute but I'm not sure if I can make that work, its tight. Anyone have the necessary box volume for the chute if using a hatch? And is the pilot spring loaded? Im not sure I have a good plan for all of that just yet. Advice would be spectacular.

Anyway I am traveling for work for a few day so ill try to get some pictures up in the next couple weeks.

Cheers :cheers:

Why is the Stainless Steel a PITA?. I think it's great, nicer to weld than mild steel IMO. :cheers:
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Mike Brown on April 27, 2017, 09:45:47 AM: Quote from: Pickle on April 15, 2016, 07:35:04 PM
Time for an update.

I finally have a roller!! its so good to get that thing on the ground. Its amazing how different it looks low, I got used to seeing it up on the table. I also got the engine and trans in.

In regard to the front suspension I rebuilt the whole thing and set the axle under a mount so I can adjust left and right weights. Now the fun stuff starts time for the bits in the back. Here are some pictures for ya.

James

It appears that you are using the Speedway steering arms made from flat steel. I also used them and experienced some "shimmy". It turned out that the flat arms were twisting where rod ends attached. You can check for this by holding one tire steady and having someone try to "steer" the other tire. If you see deflection you may need to make new arms or stiffen the flat steel ones. I put my rod ends in double shear and then boxed them with 11ga to stiffen them up. Andrew Welker started with the same arms on his tanker, abandoned them and fabricated some new arms that are spectacular like all of his work.

Great project, keep the photos coming. The guys on this forum can spot potential issues and give you great feedback.

One last piece of advice. Get all your personal safety equipment, fire suite, helmet, Hans device, gloves, shoes, etcetera and put it on when designing your cockpit. Before you can race you have to pass a "bail out" test. If you can't get out of your car quick enough you can't race. The difference in the ergonomics of exiting the car with and without a fire suite, helmet, Hans device and gloves can be quite substantial. This is the voice of experience speaking. I got this advice on this forum and didn't take it seriously. When I was going through my initial tech my only issue was the bail out test. The bail out was easy without all the safety equipment on, not so much with the safety equipment on. It is easier to do it right the first time than trying to modify things in a hurry to pass tech.

Mike Brown
Title: Re: Able Dog Belly Tank
Post by: Pickle on August 05, 2017, 01:06:23 PM: Hi all,

Im still at it, chipping away at the list. I have finished the turbo manifold, intake manifold, rad in a tank, and more. I am really close to having the bits in the middle finished up (until I have realized what I missed). I should have a real update in a couple weeks.

I lucked out as well. Work is sending me to Utah for the small sat conference in Logan the week prior to speed week and I am going to stay a few extra days and make the drive to the salt. Cant beat a free trip to speed week!!! I would love to meet up with those of you who will be there, hang out, help wrench, or whatever. Anyway, I will be there friday night through sunday so send me an email and get me some contact info. I would be nice to put a face to those who so kindly pick apart my work :wink:

James