Landracing Forum
Volkswagen L S R => Volkswagen L S R => Topic started by: RichFox on January 22, 2015, 05:59:17 PM
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Since my '26 Dodge Bros engine didn't have a distributor, I reworked a VW air cooled 4 distributor to fit. It has JFU4 stamped on the housing. Now I am told that most air cooled flat fours has a point cam that has one lobe retarded so that the cylinder behind the oil cooler would generate less heat than the rest. I also have a distributor with Z42 markings. Should I swap the cams? Is either one at 90 degrees? Or both? Or something else I need to know here?
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The numbers are more important than the letters. 009, 023, etc. I have never heard of a retarded lobe on them before, however that doesn't mean alot
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OK. The one with JFU4 on it has 0231167070 on it as well as 113905205AN. The Z42 one has 0231178009 stamped on it. I also found an older looking one JFUR4 with 0231167005 and 2119052050 stamped on it. I should have held out for a Pinto distributor.
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Many of the Vw distributors I've tested have ignition retard for the cylinder under the oil cooler, #3 I think, but I am not a Vw expert. Absolutely no idea on what the model or part numbers mean.
Find a shop with a Sun Distributor machine, and have them run it up to the maximum distributor rpm (engine rpm/2) you intend to run. You will verify the distributor's operating condition and the amount of ignition lead for each cylinder, AND, any variations. You will be able to check points, condenser, etc as well.
A magneto shop might be able to perform the same service.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Thanks. I was hoping to get free info. Shops cost money. I am thinking of a Petronix conversion. Do they have a slip on trigger wheel that makes all this immaterial?
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Thanks. I was hoping to get free info. Shops cost money. I am thinking of a Petronix conversion. Do they have a slip on trigger wheel that makes all this immaterial?
Petronix may have a universal fit kit that has even spacing for the trigger rotor.
I think Mallory still sells Unilite universal fit kits, as well as complete Unilite distributors.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Correct or not I saw "All 61 to 70 Beetles had the 3# retard up till the 71 with the offset cooler which didn't" . This may tell you which distributor you have .
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm
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Cast dizzy for Vw with Ignitor III
http://www.pertronix.com/prod/new/details.aspx?ID=154
Mallory unilite
http://mallory-ignition.com/mmy/results/index/?top=Category&top-val=&year=1970&year-val=1970&make=VOLKSWAGEN&make-val=VOLKSWAGEN&model=BEETLE+H4+1.6+LITER&model-val=BEETLE+H4+1.6+LITER&engine=Engine&engine-val=&trans=Transmission&trans-val=&brand=Mallory&brand-val=Mallory&mmy-sku=
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Thanks for the info. I have already cut and diced this distributor to work in the Dodge Bros. engine. So i really don't much want to buy a new Mallory. I had a Bosch distributor in my Pinto which was very happy above 8000. So i am sure it will work in a 26 dodge. If i can get it to be an even fire.
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Or you could put a different length rod in that cylinder which would change the effective................. :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: Wayno
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Mike Manghelli is a pretty good VW guy. He might have something now that all we use is AEM in the race cars. He has a rebuilt Beetle for sale that may the ignition if you buy the whole car.
DW
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Fordboy - keep in mind that this is Rich we're talking to here. He makes his own heads, and I'm sure he'd much rather fire up the mill than open his wallet. :wink:
I know the Lucas/Pertronix upgrade is 90 square, and is driven on about a .637 square drive. If the size of the VeeDub shaft is bigger, it's likely you could carefully machine it or the HE collar to fit.
In fact, if anybody can do it, it will be Mr. Fox . . . :cheers:
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What both of them fellers said is correct. :cheers: Wayno
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OK. The one with JFU4 on it has 0231167070 on it as well as 113905205AN. The Z42 one has 0231178009 stamped on it. I also found an older looking one JFUR4 with 0231167005 and 2119052050 stamped on it. I should have held out for a Pinto distributor.
There's a lot of numbers to blow through on that page, so I clipped and highlighted the ones that pertain to your distributors. Note that the Bosch points listed for the "009" distributor (p/n 01 030) actually fit ALL 3 distributors. The ONLY difference in these and the p/n 01 011 is that these have a stiffer spring and thus take RPMs in excess of 7K no problem without floating like the standard 01 011 points. The p/n 01 030 are easily recognized by their electrical lead since it is black with white bands on it whereas the p/n 01 011 just has a plain black lead. None of these distributors has a retarded #3. Hope this helps. . .
Beetle 1972-1973 * 1600 Manual Trans
Distributor: VW 113-905-205AN, Bosch 0231 167 070 > 043-905-205C, 0231 176 028
Can Use: VW 113-905-205AJ, Bosch 0231 167 049
Points: 01 011
Points Replacement Plate Assy: VW 311-905-227C, Bosch 1237 110 161
Condensor: 02 054
Rotor: 04 033
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 102
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 5deg ATDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe, vacuum hose(s) connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 5-8deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 6-12deg @ 1500rpm, 22-25deg @ 3800rpm
VW Models Equipped With "009" Distributor
Distributor: VW 126-905-205, Bosch 0231 178 009
Chrome Version: Bosch 9230 081 094
Can Use: 0231 178 001, 0231 178 003, 0231 129 010, 0231 129 019
Note: The 001 distributor has VW# 126-905-205 stamped above the Bosch number and is primarily used on industrial engines for constant high rpm use. The 003 was the successor to the 001 and 009 succeeded the 001 or 003 as per Bosch microfiche. The 001 or 003 Looks identical to the "009". I have a 001 and 003 in my "permanent" distributor collection (somebody's gotta have a hobby!).
Points: 01 030 (NOTE: These are points that have a stiffer spring that can take RPMs in excess of 7K.
Condensor: 02 086
Rotor: 04 033
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Coil: 6 Volt - 00 016, 12 Volt - 00 012
Timing Set At:: Most applications - 5 to 7.5deg BTDC Static. Full advance should not exceed 32 degrees at 3000rpm with stroboscopic timing light.
Bus & Pickup 1971 * 1600
Distributor: VW 211-905-205Q (I'm going to bet that the "0" is actually a "Q"), Bosch 0231 167 055 or 211-905-205S, 0231 180 001 > 043-905-205D, 0231 176 033
Can Use: VW 043-905-205D, Bosch 0231 176 033, 113-905-205AH, 0231 167 053
Points: 01 011
Points Replacement Plate Assy: VW 311-905-227A, Bosch 1237 110 064
Condensor: 02 054
Rotor: 04 033
Note: 205S/001 Distributors originally equipped with 04 021 Speed Limiting Rotor (4500rpm)
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 092
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 5deg ATDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe, vacuum hose(s) connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 2-5deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 12-16deg @ 2200rpm, 22-25deg @ 3800rpm
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Thanks everybody. Especially Wayno and Dan. What i am really trying to find out is what OEM VW distributor has the point cam with equally spaced lobes. I know VDub guys know this. Now i am going to go bore an Edmunds intake for a 261 for alignment rings. Something I know how to do. Volkswagens are to complicated.
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Rich, I posted a question on Samba about this the best VW site. It sounds like all air cooled distributors except the 010 and 050 have retarded spark for number 3 cylinder. Both are mechanical advance and getting hard to find, they are mid '50's vintage. Why not regrind your distributor cam? Actually, I never thought about how they did this. You don't think they moved the post in the cap do you? VW + DB = doug
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My understanding is it's the cam. Opening the points is what makes the spark. Moving the post wont help. I am going to look into Petronix conversions to get this right. If i had started with a Pinto distributor i wouldn't have this problem. They use the same cap, points, rotor and all. But the advance mechanism is not the same so I can't just put in a Pinto cam.
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A friend who raced SCCA used to massage his triumph breaker lobes with a lapping stone and a degree wheel for even spark timing . It might not take that long to retard the 3 advanced lobes .
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OK. The one with JFU4 on it has 0231167070 on it as well as 113905205AN. The Z42 one has 0231178009 stamped on it. I also found an older looking one JFUR4 with 0231167005 and 2119052050 stamped on it. I should have held out for a Pinto distributor.
There's a lot of numbers to blow through on that page, so I clipped and highlighted the ones that pertain to your distributors. Note that the Bosch points listed for the "009" distributor (p/n 01 030) actually fit ALL 3 distributors. The ONLY difference in these and the p/n 01 011 is that these have a stiffer spring and thus take RPMs in excess of 7K no problem without floating like the standard 01 011 points. The p/n 01 030 are easily recognized by their electrical lead since it is black with white bands on it whereas the p/n 01 011 just has a plain black lead. None of these distributors has a retarded #3. Hope this helps. . .
Beetle 1972-1973 * 1600 Manual Trans
Great detailed info Nate. Thanx for doing the leg work! Below is Nates Bonneville T3..........................
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr301/36hplandspeedracer/130%20Misc/WOS14509-Copy_zps27668bbb.jpg) (http://s494.photobucket.com/user/36hplandspeedracer/media/130%20Misc/WOS14509-Copy_zps27668bbb.jpg.html)
Photo by Burly Burlile
Burly
Distributor: VW 113-905-205AN, Bosch 0231 167 070 > 043-905-205C, 0231 176 028
Can Use: VW 113-905-205AJ, Bosch 0231 167 049
Points: 01 011
Points Replacement Plate Assy: VW 311-905-227C, Bosch 1237 110 161
Condensor: 02 054
Rotor: 04 033
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 102
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 5deg ATDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe, vacuum hose(s) connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 5-8deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 6-12deg @ 1500rpm, 22-25deg @ 3800rpm
VW Models Equipped With "009" Distributor
Distributor: VW 126-905-205, Bosch 0231 178 009
Chrome Version: Bosch 9230 081 094
Can Use: 0231 178 001, 0231 178 003, 0231 129 010, 0231 129 019
Note: The 001 distributor has VW# 126-905-205 stamped above the Bosch number and is primarily used on industrial engines for constant high rpm use. The 003 was the successor to the 001 and 009 succeeded the 001 or 003 as per Bosch microfiche. The 001 or 003 Looks identical to the "009". I have a 001 and 003 in my "permanent" distributor collection (somebody's gotta have a hobby!).
Points: 01 030 (NOTE: These are points that have a stiffer spring that can take RPMs in excess of 7K.
Condensor: 02 086
Rotor: 04 033
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Coil: 6 Volt - 00 016, 12 Volt - 00 012
Timing Set At:: Most applications - 5 to 7.5deg BTDC Static. Full advance should not exceed 32 degrees at 3000rpm with stroboscopic timing light.
Bus & Pickup 1971 * 1600
Distributor: VW 211-905-205Q (I'm going to bet that the "0" is actually a "Q"), Bosch 0231 167 055 or 211-905-205S, 0231 180 001 > 043-905-205D, 0231 176 033
Can Use: VW 043-905-205D, Bosch 0231 176 033, 113-905-205AH, 0231 167 053
Points: 01 011
Points Replacement Plate Assy: VW 311-905-227A, Bosch 1237 110 064
Condensor: 02 054
Rotor: 04 033
Note: 205S/001 Distributors originally equipped with 04 021 Speed Limiting Rotor (4500rpm)
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 092
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 5deg ATDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe, vacuum hose(s) connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 2-5deg Adv, 11-13deg Ret; Centrifugal: 12-16deg @ 2200rpm, 22-25deg @ 3800rpm
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OK. The one with JFU4 on it has 0231167070 on it as well as 113905205AN. The Z42 one has 0231178009 stamped on it. I also found an older looking one JFUR4 with 0231167005 and 2119052050 stamped on it. I should have held out for a Pinto distributor.
There's a lot of numbers to blow through on that page, so I clipped and highlighted the ones that pertain to your distributors. None of these distributors has a retarded #3. Hope this helps. . .
There's your info -- -- LOL
and Who say VW's have to be complicated ?????
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Fiatdude/Ghia/20150211_151644_zpshdwvbuml.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/Fiatdude/media/Ghia/20150211_151644_zpshdwvbuml.jpg.html)
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Yeah. That's an answer I can understand. Thank you.
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I'm new to the site, but a former VW line mechanic back in the 60s and 70s. And a VW high performance enthusiast...Most VW distributors that I know of, had the lobe for #3 cylinder retarded because of the fact its cooling air passed through the oil cooler before cooling the cylinder...retarding the cylinder timing sorta/kinda/was supposed to help keep the cylinder within reasonable cooling specs...Well, in practical applications (meaning every air cooled VW I know of) it didn't work, #3 cylinder was famous for dropping its exhaust valve.
There was only one distributor I know (outside of an MSD 8485) that did not retard #3, it was marketed by CB Performance in Farmersville, CA, and is referred to by the last three digits of its part number (050) It is no longer available, unless you can find one on the Samba or Ebay.
Most distributors used in "performance" applications are also referred to by the last three digits of their part number. There is the 009, original German models are great quality, later 009s, for the most are junk, and should be avoided...How do you tell the German from the rest you ask...take off the distributor cap, remove the rotor and the felt piece...if there is a screw head showing...avoid the distributor, it isn't German. German models did not have a screw under the felt piece.
There is the 010 distributor, it's good, use of it vs the 009 depends on what advance curve you want.
Then there is the 019 distributor, it's good, use of it vs the 009 depends on what advance curve you want.
And don't listen to today's "experts" who say you need a SVDA distributor...Just another half baked solution for later model junk 009 distributors. The VW industry is famous for "fixes/solutions" for junk parts.
I'm building a 68 Bug for the Utah Salt Flats Racing Associations 130 MPH Club. using a 2052 cc engine with a combo of induction systems...First I'm trying a pair of Weber 44 IDF carbs in a draw thru turbo setup, I'm also going to try a FAST EX-EFI throttle body induction system.
I'll be happy to help anyone...If I don't have an answer, I'll tell you...I won't blow smoke!