Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: buickracer69 on November 12, 2014, 12:55:21 AM
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Hello,
My name is Gary Lewis and I am currently working on a project to run at Bonneville hopefully in 2015. I have never done any LSR, but have experience in other form of race cars. Before I get into too many details about my build I will tell you a little more about myself and my background.
I am born and raised in St. Louis Missouri. I am currently in my senior year at the University of Missouri-St Louis and am 22 years old. Although I have never done any LSR I have built and worked on quite a few drag race cars. I have worked at an automotive machine shop for the last 7 years and have had the privilege of working on everything from Jr. Dragsters to nitro funny cars.
Luckily for me I have some good resources that I have access to and know a lot of people in the industry who can help me on the task I am not an expert it (which is a lot). My other “race car” is a 1969 Buick Skylark that I have swapped a 5.3 LS engine into and bracket race the poor thing to death. For the people who are familiar with bracket racing I run foot brake and pro and this season actually had some luck on my side and did fairly well (I consider going any rounds as doing alright!) .
I have built worked on a few engines for LSR applications including Steve M on this forum who set the record in his green rampage. He has already been very helpful and I would like to thank him now because I am sure I have been bugging the crap out of him with what must seem like elementary questions.
On to details about my build, I about an S-10 off a board member that has already raced in the MMP class at Bonneville. It needs a lot of TLC and some updates before it is ready for the salt again, but with some hard work and late nights I hope to have it in working order by then.
I am currently putting together and 6.0 LS engine for it. For those of you who are familiar with the LS engines it won’t be anything crazy, but my plan is to make is 4.005 bore x 3.622 stroke which will be a C engine. I am basically putting good rods and pistons in it, main studs and head studs, a turbo cam, a ported set of 317 heads, and letting it rip. The engine should be able to handle around 1000 RWHP but I don’t know if I will get the brave. As of now I am targeting 800 RWHP
I do plan on running a turbo, I am working out all the details on that right now, but that plan is to run a Borg Warner s480 which would be able to make around 30 PSI if needed. I am shooting for a target of 20 PSI but I would rather have more turbo than not enough since lag should not really be an issue.
I have a T56 transmission that I plan on running, and the truck already has a 9 inch in it. I think I will keep the 9 inch because I plan on running it at the Ohio Mile before I go to Bonneville (assuming all goes well). I have a set of 2.73 gears that have the NASCAR finish on them that I was thinking about running, but I am very open to gear suggestions. I know that I am ignorant in LSR and will need lots of advice along the way.
As far as stuff like the fuel system I have a brand new fuel cell and an Aeromotive A1000 pump, nothing fancy but it will feed enough fuel.
I plan on running an air to water intercooler with the water tank in the bed.
I am currently getting the fuel injection system pinned down, I am currently planning on using a Holley HP system which is basically like the dominator system without the ability to control automatic transmissions which I don’t need.
Sorry for the really stupidly long first post, but I figured I would let you guys know some stuff about me, and let you know what my plans are so you can tell me all the areas where I am thinking wrong. I look very forward to meeting you, and if you read this far, thanks for your time and the advice I am sure you have to offer!
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Welcome to the land of lsr. Sounds to me that you have things much more in hand than you may realize. You should have an excellent resource in Steve and he's developed a fairly large group of contacts that you should be able to draw on. In addition you'll find lots of advise on this board that you can sort and use as you wish. The one big thing to remember about Bonneville racing as opposed to most other forms is that weight can be your friend. The salt is usually somewhat to very lacking in traction.
There are lots of engine and driveline guys on this board that are much more qualified than me in that area. On the other hand if you have welding or fabrication questions I'd be more than happy to offer my opinion or advise. I often use a PM if I think something may prove controversial or attract a lot of conflicting opinion but if you want to question any subject further on the open board, anything that draws out various opinions or ideas is good.
Good luck with your build. I look forward to seeing pictures. That's often where one of us will see something and offer our own, often not so humble opinion. :roll: :roll: :-D
Pete
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Welcome Gary, I'm sure some of Steve's winning ways will rub off on you. :-D
Have a blast and enjoy the journey. :cheers:
Mike.
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Don't beat yourself up if it isn't 2015 - not only is this the fastest sport on earth, it's also the slowest.
Even if the car's ready, the salt may not be. Steve can fill you in on that one.
Seeing as you've got a vehicle that has run LSR, and that you've got Steve's phone number in your rolodex, it's clear you're well ahead of the game. 2015 is doable.
Keep us posted, and we'll see you on the salt. :cheers:
Chris
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Congrats from an ex-St. Louis county person (grew up there) on getting into LSR. With your background you have a huge start on getting into this vs. some (myself) that got started. You will find that you do need to throw out a lot of the 'what makes a good drag race car' ideas but it sounds like you know that and being young are probably pretty adaptable to new ideas.
One thing to consider is that an 800 RWHP S10 is probably capable of speeds in the 260 to 270+ range. That is fast in a short wheelbase small truck that has the center of pressure at the wrong end of the vehicle. Is this an older S10 (smaller) or later extended cab? I remember first going to the salt and seeing a 190-200 mph small short wheelbase S10 run and was very impressed that there was enough room in the cab for the driver to get his balls in there and you might have the capability of running considerably faster.
If you haven't you need to study the center of pressure/center of gravity issue. I would be planning on how to get a lot of weight in the front of that vehicle. If you could run a wing in the rear of spill plates that would help but you can't.
With the blown C motor you are going to have a lot to package in there (besides yourself) and will have to use the bed but put the lightest stuff back there. You are going to have to have weight for traction but will need a lot forward to stay straight.
Good luck with the build and ask questions and post questions and the current blown record is really soft and even if it goes up you probably wouldn't need to run the speeds I said you might be capable of,
Sumner
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Wecome looking forward to watching the build, Don't forget to post some picture.
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And being in St. Louis, you are within a 6 hour drive to the Ohio Mile (Wilmington, OH) for a little Test n Tune if need be.
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I plan on trying to go to the Ohio Mile if at all possible. I think it would be a good chance to shake the truck down before I drive 24 hours to go race.
Although I would be very happy with your expected 270+ MPH I don't think that will be the case. According to the calculators I have been messing around with the truck is not nearly aero enough to go that fast. If I went 200 mph I would be thrilled.
Did I read what you said correct about making the truck nose heavy? I figured you would want a lot of weight over the rear end for traction if possible. Is keeping it nose heave an attempt to keep it stable at speed? I am already learning new things! I figured this place would be a wealth of knowledge that I could tap into.
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Sum said: "If you haven't you need to study the center of pressure/center of gravity issue. I would be planning on how to get a lot of weight in the front of that vehicle." Gotta read the fine print.
The issue is aero stability vs traction. At ohio mile mechanical traction not so bad and weight in the back more or less OK as long as you are straight. At Bonneville, traction is poor, weight in the back helps that but a blown V8 with lots of oomph, especially on shifts will light the tires, making mechanical traction- ie tires stuck to the track- more or less ZERO => sideways you go = spin city. Then your aero stability comes into play and nose heavy is good. Is a tough balance. Over all weight helps as long as the CP is behind the CG you have better chance of going more or less straight with the power you are looking to make.
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It seems like I have a lot more research to do. I knew this would be an eye opening experience. It will be a test to see if I paid attention in physics.
I attempted to upload a picture of the S-10 before I put it into storage but it is saying the file it to large. What is the most common way to upload photos on this site? Photo bucket?
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What is the most common way to upload photos on this site? Photo bucket?
Best way I know - just paste the link into your entry.
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(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag352/buickracer69/S103_zps7d1f09ef.jpg) (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/buickracer69/media/S103_zps7d1f09ef.jpg.html)
If this link works, then here is a picture of the S-10 before it got put into storage for awhile.
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.....Although I would be very happy with your expected 270+ MPH I don't think that will be the case. According to the calculators I have been messing around with the truck is not nearly aero enough to go that fast. If I went 200 mph I would be thrilled. ....
Yep, you are probably right. I took a gut swing on it comparing what we have done speed/HP wise vs. the 800 rwhp you expect to have (remember the 800 has to be there in the last mile not the last 120 feet of a quarter mile :-).
I found some figures on the frontal area/cd of an S10 (don't know if they are accurate) but with a 24.4 frontal area and a cd of .44 (if those are stock numbers you might be able to help them out some)...
http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/652656-92-s10-vs-83-a.html (http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/652656-92-s10-vs-83-a.html)
... the 800 rwhp is probably good for about 215 plugging the numbers into the "HP needed for a Lakester or Car to run a certain MPH" spreadsheet on my site here...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html)
.... and if you can make the 1000 that might be good for 233. Still like you said 200 would be a ride in that truck on the salt that you won't forget soon :-).
.....Did I read what you said correct about making the truck nose heavy? ........
............. Is keeping it nose heave an attempt to keep it stable at speed? ..
Yes and Jacksoni had the answers but this might help also...
http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-Hooley/14%20-%20hooley-construction-2014-2.html (http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-Hooley/14%20-%20hooley-construction-2014-2.html)
You are on the right track asking questions and studying the whole deal,
Sumner
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I don't know if the "swoopy" paint job is just misleading my eyes (and I'm not that familiar with S-10s), but it appears to me that the wheel cut-outs on the body have been modified. This might be a classification problem.
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Glad to see you posting, Gary!
This should be a great project.
Steve.
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Gary really knows his engine stuff very well, and works at one of the very best engine shops in the area (or any area, for that matter). The projects built in their shop range from road race stuff, to drag cars, street cars, boats, show cars, and some really cool vintage restorations. I need to get him a framed photo of the Rampage to go on their "Wall of Fame".
Gary does pretty well with his drag car at Gateway International, too.
I know he said he's in St Louis, but some people may find it interesting to know that their shop is smack-dab in the middle of Ferguson, MO. Lots of crazy stuff going on there lately, but the shop is one of those Old-School Cool speed shop type places that just feels "right" to go in.
If you get a chance, post a pic or two of your Buick, Gary.
Steve.
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...but some people may find it interesting to know that their shop is smack-dab in the middle of Ferguson, MO. Lots of crazy stuff going on there lately, but the shop is one of those Old-School Cool speed shop type places that just feels "right" to go in....
Interesting indeed. I grew up on 7 acres in a small unincorporated area between Ferguson and Florrissant (now a city of Ferguson archery range) and went to school in the Ferguson/Florissant school district.
It has been sad to see all that has happened in that area recently. It was a pretty low key quiet nice place to grow up in the 40's-50's and 60's. Hopefully the residents there now can get back to that at some point,
Sumner
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Steve keep telling me I needed to start a thread, but I wanted to wait until I started making progress so I had things to post. Plus I had a lot of research to do before I jumped into the project, I like to research the hell out of stuff before I actually start.
Here is a picture of my Old mans car, this was from a few weeks ago when it was still nice out and I drove it to church.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag352/buickracer69/20141019_172000_zpsy8cwpmxi.jpg) (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/buickracer69/media/20141019_172000_zpsy8cwpmxi.jpg.html)
It is nothing to fancy, 455 Buick motor, turbo 400 & a 12 bolt. It is pump gas, flat tappet camed, iron headed simple combination. It has run 11.20's in good air.
My car is still in the TLC faze. I got it back together early this year and had to make the decision to sit out the season and finish the body work, or say paint be damned and go racing. You can clearly see which path I took. I honestly have almost no pictures of my car, but this is from earlier in the season when I lucked my way to the winners circle in pro. I am the guy in the white shirt, the guy in the black shirt is my best friend/crew chief/racing friend/partner in crime.
My car has a 5.3 LS engine in it, it is a stock short block with a cam. I drive it back at forth to the track and beat the crap out of the poor thing. I am not sure how many passes I made this season, but it was over a hundred. Our foot brake program has a 12.00 cap and that is what my car is set up for. It runs a lot of 12.2x and has got 11.9x in good air. I am really happy with how well the LS runs for how little I did to it and how seldom it makes me work on it.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag352/buickracer69/ProWinBuick_zps512afb87.jpg) (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/buickracer69/media/ProWinBuick_zps512afb87.jpg.html)
The Ferguson situation is one that has us worried, and hopefully it does not effect us or the shop to much or it will put a major stop to my project. It really breaks my heart to see Ferguson being broadcast world wide in this light. I love Ferguson and still hang out there regularly when I am not at work. I hope they get it resolved and save the community.
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Cool car Gary. I dig the S-10 too! I'm looking forward to seeing how things progress, and even more to seeing that little truck on the salt next year! Good luck, and remember, lots of pictures!
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Good to see another truck having a go at it!! Feel free to reach out to me or kix on this site if you have any questions. We ran a 96 Sonoma in C/MMP with an LS engine. The truck belonged to Kix but he sold it to move on to another project. We made 675whp on a stingy dyno dynamics chassis dyno and set the record at 219mph and change. We had a little better aero then your truck and it still lifted the front over 3" at speed. It used most of the width of the course at Bonneville wandering around. We had plans for alot more weight in the nose.
The C/BMMP record is really soft so you should be able to get it. Besides the truck that holds that record is not really legal anyway. I also don't know what became of that truck.
We had plans to run C/BMMP with the sonoma and we were thinking 270mph or better if we could keep the nose down.
Get it as low as possible! Frame almost on the ground low.
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Javajoe, how much did the S-10 you raced in MMP weigh?
I was thinking mine would end up in the 3500 lbs range, but from what I have been reading that seems like it might not be enough.
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Javajoe, how much did the S-10 you raced in MMP weigh?
I was thinking mine would end up in the 3500 lbs range, but from what I have been reading that seems like it might not be enough.
We started the first year about that weight and it was good to 220 with Hooley's first trip to the salt with a car. Now it is over 6000. Not so much how much but where it is for traction and CG. All of ours is ahead of the rear axle with some in the nose and between the nose and the main weight boxes just ahead of the rear tires and right behind the front doors,
Sumner
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Nice 69 Skylark You ran some good QT mile times with it. I had on years ago with a 455 and 2.56 gears, could only muster low 14s. Fun car no less.
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We were well over 5k lbs. Without ballast we were around 4500lbs I think. It needed more weight in the nose and probably needed the front suspension to be droop limited.
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What do you guys think about a "ballast box" full of water in the front of the bed? I realize there's only a limited amount of space in the front of an S-10 bed, but maybe a 50 gallon container or so? That could provide for 400# of extra weight, without having to tow it around with the extra weight.
Steve.
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What do you guys think about a "ballast box" full of water in the front of the bed? I realize there's only a limited amount of space in the front of an S-10 bed, but maybe a 50 gallon container or so? That could provide for 400# of extra weight, without having to tow it around with the extra weight.
Steve.
If you need the water then that would help but if you don't lead or steel in the same area would have a lot bigger impact in less space.
One factor that plays into this is the speed and HP you are running. If you run the "Horse Power Needed For A Lakester or a Car to Run a Certain MPH" spreadsheet here....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html#HP%20needed%20for%20A%20Lakester (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html#HP%20needed%20for%20A%20Lakester)
... it will give you the weight you need on the drive wheels for the vehicle for different speeds/HP. A streamliner needs less weight for traction then say a comp coupe to run the same speed because it will do it with less HP.
So now you know the weight you need over the drive wheels but what about where that weight is and the effect it has on the CG vs. the CP. You might now need more weight forward also to move the CG ahead of the CP.
This link will give you an idea on how to arrive at a rough estimate in figuring where your CP is and you can weigh the car and figure the CG .....
http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-Hooley/14%20-%20hooley-construction-2014-2.html (http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-Hooley/14%20-%20hooley-construction-2014-2.html)
A pickup is hard to keep all of this where you might like it since the cab is so far forward on the body moving the CP further ahead than a lot of vehicles. Roadsters aren't easy either and one reason a lot of them spin, but a lot of them refuse to also add weight forward.
Using the spreadsheet above and the option for figuing your CP is not hard to do so why not do it. You might at least see if you are in the ballpark.
The first year Hooley ran a 219 and after that when we planned on going faster I thought we were right about the limit we could go with the weight on the rear axle and needed to add weight if we wanted to go faster and not just spin the tires at the aero wall and we did. But we also added weight forward to help keep the CG forward.
I think we are close again to needing more weight on the rear axle but instead of that we can start trying to gain downforce for traction with the wing and we now have the vertical stabilizers which really help to move the CP rearward. So we might be able to stay right where we are weight wise which would be good for acceleration and also have a car that is less likely to spin,
Sumner
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As a quick update, we have made it through the Ferguson Riot situation fairly well so far. We have been down there late almost every night to make sure nothing bad happens. Since I have been stuck there I figured I might as well work on my engine and am making progress on that.
Here is a picture of it in the hone.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag352/buickracer69/20141123_141631_zpspoii0w1z.jpg) (http://s1372.photobucket.com/user/buickracer69/media/20141123_141631_zpspoii0w1z.jpg.html)
I hope to have the short block together at the end of December.
Hope you all are doing well,
Gary Lewis
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Good one Gary, hang in there and be safe. :cheers:
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Glad to hear you guys are OK from the rioting!
Thinking about your truck yesterday, I remembered the 1991 Sonoma that GMC Truck Motorsports built:
(http://www.sportmachines.com/magrack/images/motor_trend_1-91_1_2.jpg)
And the article I got this pic from is:
http://www.sportmachines.com/wiki/Motor+Trend+Jan+1991
The engine for this truck was pretty impressive, 549 HP V6 and it put down a two way average of 204.145 with Donnie Stringfellow driving.
Gregg
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I remember the bed cover on that Sonoma, very interesting.
Don
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That GMC truck looks awesome. I hope mine ends up with a similar stance.
Question for you guy, The turbo I am buying will need a 5 inch down pipe. Instead of running that under the truck, I was thinking about letting it exit the fender. This is what most of the drag race guys do. Would this break the rules of modifying the body? I don't see how it would be an aero advantage, but I don't want to break any rules.
Thanks,
Gary Lewis
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Modified Pick-ups uses gas coupe rules so i think it would be ok. But you should alway run it by the techs.
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Yeah you can run the exhaust like that or out through the wheel well like we did.
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Awesome! That will make plumbing the exhaust much easier. I want to keep the down pipe away from everything if possible. I am sure it will be glowing red after a WOT 5 mile pull.
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Nice s10 i found on the web
(http://www.nutsracing.com/Bonneville%202001/Wednesday/18%20S-10%20pickup%20in%20pits.jpg)
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More
(http://www.nutsracing.com/Bonneville%202002/12-Aug%20Monday/014%20Kuntz%2C%20Jackson%2C%20Lindley%27s%20Truck%20Set%20Record%20at%20180mph.jpg)
(http://www.nutsracing.com/Bonneville%202005/Vehicles/hpim0409.jpg)
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(http://www.nutsracing.com/Bonneville%202005/OntheSalt/img_1895.jpg)
(http://www.nutsracing.com/Bonneville%202005/Vehicles/hpim0323.jpg)
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Those trucks look awesome. I am out of school next week and am itching to get started on the truck. I paid for all the turbo stuff today and have a mach up engine ready to start making all the turbo plumbing.
I have a question to you experienced LSR, my S 10 has a cowl hood on it similar to truck #5003, I was planning on ditching it and running a flat hood because I don't need the extra hood clearance and I thought it might help with the aero. Do you guys feel like this is a good idea? I have a cowl on my Buick and I know it really helps get the heat out from under the hood. It might also help get air that is trapped under the hood out?
I am trying to gather as much information as possible to be informed in the build process.
Thanks,
Gary Lewis
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I was building a truck and by a twist of fate SDSU built a quarter scale model
and did wind tunnel testing.
If you need help I'll do whatever it takes to get you going.
The two are a little different shape wise but I do have a SCTA rule book.
PM me. I'm in.
Mike.
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I would say don't run it if you don't need it and keep the cowl to hood area well sealed. Here is some more inspiration for you. We needed the scoop to clear twin dominators on a high ram intake. We didn't need the huge opening on that scoop but ran out of time to make it properly small.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/v/t1.0-9/382280_10200603961771108_1706457604_n.jpg?oh=d4efc96162943c002ca90bb786efe539&oe=54FDB9C2&__gda__=1430426767_6b27911ed4971794ef77173d33f98501)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/299794_10200603961491101_741259183_n.jpg?oh=4f8f303204d87e0365541d7b2f962488&oe=54FC17BC&__gda__=1426886283_c1d7c1675e3c89e3be63a3c379640588)
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I got the chance to go to the PRI show yesterday. After talking to some vendors and meeting some of our supplies people I hopefully have some people primed up to give me some good deals on some parts to make this S-10 happen. It was a cool experience and there was a lot to see and take it. Hopefully it pans out to some sponsorships
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Awesome news, Gary! :-o
Now that school is out, let me know when you can come down my place for some bench racing.
Steve.
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Any progress on this truck
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POINT the exhaust straight back
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I am horrible about updating stuff like this, but I have made some progress. I am in my last semester of college so time is limited, but I got a turbo, blow off valve, waste gate, and piping and have been plugging away at the motor. I am always working on a budget so that is key. If I do anything exciting I will post some pictures!