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Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Frank06 on September 06, 2014, 07:24:00 PM



Title: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 06, 2014, 07:24:00 PM
A couple of folks (OK, Joe Daly) suggested I get my butt in gear and post something up about the bike I brought to Loring this summer.  I had actually intended to do this about a year ago but never got around to it.  It's a 2004 Hayabusa I converted to electric drive.

I've always been interested in EV's and did my first conversion 8-9 years ago.  I was given an Aermacchi rolling chassis when I got another project bike, so stuck three 12V deep-cycle batteries in it, a smallish motor and controller and got the "EV Grin."  It was a pig, had at best 20 miles range and might hit 50 mph going downhill, but I learned a lot.  Following that I converted a pickup truck (1994 Toyota.)  This was before lithium batteries were easily available so it too was a lead-sled.  I used it a lot and recently donated it to the local high school as the original batteries are getting pretty weak.  They're going to install the electric components in another donor vehicle.  There's not much to wear out (other than lead-acid batteries.) 

The next project started when I broke a connecting rod on my 1976 Suzuki GT550 at about 45 mph.  It's a good thing Suzuki makes great clutches because that's the only thing that saved a tumble.  That bike got converted with lithium batteries into a 75-mile range commuter.  I decided I wanted to try drag racing this past winter so converted it into a drag bike but that's another story.

My original thought was to build my own chassis but when looking for a donor bike for suspension and brakes on the local Craigslist I stumbled across a Hayabusa rolling chassis about 3 hours from here.  The guy raced quads and had ripped the engine and wiring harness out for his project.  It was perfect for me.  I know and love the first gen Hayabusa (I have an '03), the bike has a title and all the major bodywork components were present.  Plus, you can register a conversion which means it will get more use.

Day 1:
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/BusaBuild001_zpsc234888c.jpg)
Harvest Event - 2014
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-BusaLoring2014_zps0575eb85.jpg)

It's a street bike with about 100 mile range at 50 mph, ~300 ft-lb torque and max. power of about 120hp.  I don't need all the range and will be trying to reconfigure batteries this winter to get rid of the saddlebag and top packs.

I'm having trouble uploading from one photo provider and am in the process of switching to another so some of these posts may take awhile.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Jessechop on September 06, 2014, 07:59:17 PM
Real interesting bike. How fast did it run Frank? 148?


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 06, 2014, 09:35:57 PM
Jesse, I did two passes back-to-back at 140.  Pack was ~80% charged and my tuck could always be better.  It's geared for the street and I figure I gave up about 15 hp due to the higher (numerically) gearing.  Theoretically the motor is constant torque out to a certain speed, then constant power, except friction and other losses increase so power drops some the higher you rev.  Max power takes place about 2750 rpm and I ran about twice that at 140.  The motor is series wound and there's a parallel-wound version that can give about 150kw (200 hp) at higher revs.  The tradeoff is lower torque, only about 165 ft-lb.  That's the version used by the Lightning LS-218.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: sabat on September 06, 2014, 09:47:19 PM
Very cool! Other than the donor bike, how much do you have invested in it?  thanks, Dean


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 06, 2014, 09:56:42 PM
I spent a fair amount of time trying to decide which motor (and what technology) to use.  One popular option is the series-DC (brushed) motor, basically 100 year old forktruck technology.  They pass all the current through the brushes into the armature and can build a lot of heat if run hard.  But you can run them *very* hard for short periods of time; it's what all the drag racers use.  Basically they're a mechanical transformer and will try to convert all the voltage and current you can throw at them into mechanical motion.  If you overdo it, they break, which makes them less attractive for LSR.  Folks like John Metric are running twin Warp-9 motors at 200V and 2000A each (total of 800kW battery power).  They can make serious torque and power which is perfect for drag racing.  They do okay on the street as it really doesn't take that much power to cruise around.  They're less expensive and a bit heavier and freewheel going downhill i.e. no engine braking.

I ended up stumbling onto a surplus permanent-magnet motor and controller and decided to pull the trigger.  The motor is a Remy (as in Delco-Remy) and the controller is made by Rinehart Motion Systems (the same controllers on KillaJoule.)  In this type of motor the current doesn't pass through brushes and you can regenerate.  Made in America and very good quality.  You can run them hard all day long and they can take it.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/RemyMotor_zps11125afe.jpg)

The other factor is geometry.  Brushed motors tend to be smaller diameter and longer which makes them harder to fit in a bike.  The PM motors like this one tend to be larger diameter which makes them work better on a bike.  Brushed motors are air-cooled and the setup I have is liquid cooled.  Liquid cooling requires more systems (the motor uses ATF and the controller a glycol mixture.)


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 06, 2014, 10:02:09 PM
Very cool! Other than the donor bike, how much do you have invested in it?  thanks, Dean

Dean, I think I have about $15-16K into this project.  More if you count all the little stuff you end up picking up at the hardware store.  I've never spent this much money on a motorcycle in my life before!


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: 55chevr on September 06, 2014, 11:30:30 PM
The assumed value of standing mile racing is that you need you need 200 hp to go 200 mph on a motorcycle.   If you can gear- not sure if that is correct term- to the track length for peak hp, the E Busa should go 200 mph ....


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Koncretekid on September 07, 2014, 11:14:08 AM
Very impressive, Frank!  Maybe by next July you'll be going ?????  and be able to say you outran a BSA!  See you then.
Tom


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 07, 2014, 06:30:26 PM
The assumed value of standing mile racing is that you need you need 200 hp to go 200 mph on a motorcycle.   If you can gear- not sure if that is correct term- to the track length for peak hp, the E Busa should go 200 mph ....

Joe, that is always in the back of my mind.  The parallel-wound motor is what Lightning used to go 218 at Bonneville.  In fact, this bike uses the same batteries (Enerdels.)  If you ever get a chance to check a Lightning LS-218 out, it is well worth the time to look it over.  It's a beautiful job of engineering that combines functionality of the various parts.  For example, they machine their own motor housing which mounts the swingarm (concentric to the sprocket) and also mounts the battery "holders" (which function as the frame of the motorcycle) which in turn mounts to the steering head.  My bike is all compromise.

I had a chance to sit on the Pikes Peak bike (they won overall motorcycle last year) and it is surprisingly narrow.  I owe a debt of gratitude to Richard Hatfield of Lightning because of all the good advice he gave me.  :cheers:


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 07, 2014, 06:40:20 PM
Hi Tom!  Thanks.

When fooling around with possible motor position it quickly became apparent that I would need every bit of space I could find.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/003_zps23bcce52.jpg)

Because the engine acts as a stressed member I figured I should make a fairly beefy subframe to tie everything together.  I used 1.5" square tubing.  My fabrication skills aren't that good but I tried to be careful and make the various pieces exactly the same size.  Once welded together and bolted into the backbone things would be as flat and level as I could get them.

I fit the fairing onto the bike to get the subframe as low and wide as possible and so the motor could be mounted to it as rigidly as possible.  It's not pretty but it seems pretty functional.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/MotorPlacement007_zps3b6d1029.jpg)


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 07, 2014, 07:04:20 PM
It's necessary to keep the motor output shaft as close to the swingarm pivot as possible.  This picture shows the top of the wiring cover up tight to the frame.  I had previously disassembled the motor and had 3/8" machined off the motor housing in this location in order to allow it to move as far back as possible.  The "A", "B", "C" are the 3 phase leads coming from the controller.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-Busatightfit010_zpsea141a01.jpg)

The black plate is the rear motor mount which I had water-jet cut from 1/4" steel plate.  Aluminum would have probably worked but I didn't want to take any chances.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 07, 2014, 07:17:27 PM
Making an adapter so I could mount a sprocket was a bit of a chore.  Most motors have a keyed shaft that readily accepts a taperlock coupling.  The output shaft on these motors is splined.  They are also fitted to a special transmission used in some EV's so I purchased a coupler to modify.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/MotorPlacement010_zps59abe2b3.jpg)

The coupler was cut down in length, milled to accept a standard key with a hole strategically placed for a set screw that prevents axial movement.  A taperlock coupling allows use of a sprocket.  The black piece is the drive-end motor mount, also water-jet cut from 1/4" steel plate.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/EnerdelBatteries004_zps85ac2059.jpg)


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: 55chevr on September 07, 2014, 08:12:50 PM
What is the diameter of the output shaft?


Joe


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: RidgeRunner on September 08, 2014, 06:22:56 AM
    Nice work!

    Looking forward to following the build the build here and seeing it run at a Loring meet in the future.

                           Ed


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 08, 2014, 09:01:41 AM
Ed, thanks.  Joe, the nominal diameter of the motor shaft is 25mm.  I had forgotten that the OD of the coupler was also turned down.  It fits a 1610 taperlock bushing and I'm running a 17-tooth sprocket. 


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 09, 2014, 07:20:21 AM
Early on in the process I contacted Remy and got some good information on things to watch out for.  These motors are designed for continuous operation at higher loads, so coolant temperature is an important parameter.  Output is derated depending on temperature.  In the worst case, the magnets can become demagnetized and there are sensors inside the motor to tell the controller to reduce output if temperature gets too high.

I ended up communicating with some motorsport enthusiasts who gave me some good tips.  The motor uses ATF (Dexron VI is recommended) for cooling and lube purposes.  It doesn't take that much flow for light loads which are typical for street use.  We all love our high-hp machines but the reality is that it doesn't take much power at all to go down the road at 60 mph.  Remy recommends use of a dry-sump system for higher loads i.e. one pump to ensure the oil sump is evacuated (it's on the small side) and another to supply oil back into the system.

One take-away for me was the suggestion that I "just throw an oil pan under it" which I did.  The first step was to disassemble the motor and mark the area of interest on the oil sump.  I used a hold saw to make the initial cuts.  A milling machine would have been nice but I decided this could be done with hand tools.  The rectangular area was drawn when the motor was in the frame and showed me the space I had to work with between the frame rails.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/RemyCaseMods003_zps1b3fc45c.jpg?1410263505070&1410263507077)

I don't know what grade aluminum this thing is made from but it is not easy to machine.  The guy who milled the top of the case down said the same thing.  Regardless, I got through it then cleaned the holes up a bit, making sure there was minimal opportunity for oil to remain trapped inside the OEM sump.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/RemyCaseMods010_zpsa90f305d.jpg?1410263505069&1410263507075)

A smallish oil pan was fabbed up, mounting holes were drilled/tapped once everything was in position (being careful to keep chips out of the sump) then the sump was installed with a cork gasket and gobs of ATF-specific silicone.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/EnerdelBatteries012_zps8fef5dd8.jpg?1410263505072&1410263507082)

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/EnerdelBatteries016_zps22b206ca.jpg?1410263505071&1410263507080)


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: 55chevr on September 09, 2014, 09:14:01 AM
I have new understanding for this.   It appears that nothing is off the shelf for an electric vehicle.
Joe


Title: Re:
Post by: Frank06 on September 09, 2014, 09:27:19 AM
Joe, the air cooled motors are a lot easier to install.  My drag bike was a piece of cake compared to this one.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Jessechop on September 09, 2014, 11:56:17 AM
So with no transmission you are limited to the RPM the motor will put out. You mentioned peak hp @ 2750 and you were double that @ 140 mph. So is a regear in order? Or is over reving a electric motor ok? I know playing around with brushless RC cars the motors can free rev to the point of exploding a rotor. With a load there is no concern for this.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 09, 2014, 03:03:49 PM
Right, with a series-DC motor (armature and field in series) they will rev no-load until they break (unless the voltage is kept very low.)  In fact the standard way to wear in the brushes with a series motor is to run it at 12V for a long period of time.  A small motor like on my dragbike runs at about 2K rpm and draws 15-20 amps during this process.

The permanent magnet motor is more sophisticated.  It has a red-line of 10K rpm and my controller has it set to 8K in case a chain breaks or something similar happens.  Because of friction (I'm assuming it's friction) the "constant power" curve isn't really constant and it decreases with speed.  If I regeared so my target speed occurred at peak power I would presumably go faster.  But this is a street bike so I chose not to do that.  The gearing on it now puts the max power speed at around 70 mph.

Two upgrade options are: (1) change the motor core to the parallel wound version.  Torque is lower but goes on longer.  This is attractive because I can use the existing charger and batteries and partially compensate for lower torque with gearing.  Developed power is higher at the higher rpm but I'd need to upgrade my existing controller.

(2) run at higher voltage.  Torque is the same but goes on longer.  In this scenario the motor core stays the same but batteries have to be reconfigured, I'd need a new charger and controller.  Plus, running at 600V is at the limit most components are rated at (wiring, fuses, contactors, etc.)  That's getting into some very serious design considerations... Option (1) is cheaper and safer and I'm considering it.  This is the approach Lightning takes. 


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 12, 2014, 06:56:47 AM
I wanted to keep stock bodywork as much as possible.  It made sense to mount the small electric oil pump for motor coolant underneath and behind the sump.  Oil is introduced into the motor at the appropriate fitting and gravity drains into the oil pan.  It's pumped via a check-valve through a small radiator and filter mounted aft then back to the motor.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-BusaFinalDetails013_zps7d07cf9d.jpg?1410522215924&1410522218353)

The radiator for motor cooling is on the right hand side of the bike, the controller radiator is on the left.  It's bigger as the controller has less mass and rejects more heat than the motor.  Both items only run 5-10 F-degrees above ambient.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-BusaFinalDetails005_zps27378114.jpg?1410522798371&1410522800324)

Also shown is a bunch of 12-volt Control wiring being installed.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Jessechop on September 12, 2014, 08:28:25 AM
3 questions

#1. Have you monitored oil temps leaving the motor vs leaving the cooler? Its just me being curious if temps are 125 or 225 sort of deal.

#2. Back when we built an EV is school our wiring was much, much less. Granted that was almost 20 years ago and the technology was basic at best back then. So is that much wiring common place on newer EV's?

#3. Is that a home made blast cabinet?


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 12, 2014, 10:12:28 AM
3 questions

#1. Have you monitored oil temps leaving the motor vs leaving the cooler? Its just me being curious if temps are 125 or 225 sort of deal.

#2. Back when we built an EV is school our wiring was much, much less. Granted that was almost 20 years ago and the technology was basic at best back then. So is that much wiring common place on newer EV's?

#3. Is that a home made blast cabinet?

(1) I'm monitoring temps at the oil pan.  The BMS (battery monitoring system) has 4 temperature probes.  The highest I remember was when ambient was about 80*, oil pan was 85 or so.  Electric motors are extremely efficient compared to ICE's.  Nothing in the system has ever been hot, just warm to the touch.  The only heat-related issue I've had so far is the DC/DC converter overheating (this is what keeps the 12V aux. battery charged.)  It's running the lights, horn, two pumps and keeps the main contactor pulled in.  I'm dealing with that now.  It's fine for about 25 miles or so (30-45 minutes around here) than craps out and has to sit and cool down.

(2) The controller is pretty sophisticated and has a whole bunch of inputs, although not everything is used at this time but I decided to terminate them all onto terminal strips in case I ever need the inputs.  Series DC motors (RC style) are a whole lot simpler.  Plus, doing the wiring harness for all the street gear entailed a bunch of wiring.  The BMS uses a wireless OBDII connector wired into a CAN-bus line to shoot data to an Android tablet I use to monitor various parameters.  There's wires for forward/reverse (reverse is cool!) and I can disable regen when I just want to coast.

(3) Yes it's a homemade blast cabinet.  I used a kit from TP Tools and keep modifying it for various projects.   :)


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 12, 2014, 10:21:31 AM
I forgot to mention, the other big deal with wiring is inputs into the BMS.  For safety's sake, every single cell has an input into the BMS so there's 96 wires coming from various places, all heading forward.  The BMS sets an alarm if a cell gets too low, too high, too weak, etc.  It's necessary wiring but a real PIA.  The BMS wiring all goes through plugs and harnesses but some of the street wiring is still a rats nest.  I've got it all documented but want to clean it up as much as I can.  (another winter project, lol) 

To answer the other part of your question, you won't find an OEM EV that doesn't use a permanent magnet or AC motor.  Their development cycle lets them figure everything out and design for minimum cost/maximum simplicity so their systems will all be pretty cleaned up by the time they're in production.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 18, 2014, 06:37:08 PM
The controller's job is to send current to the motor in each of the three phases.  It's really a variable frequency inverter.  It functions by "trading" voltage for current when you initially call for torque.  As the motor starts turning it acts as a generator and creates a voltage that opposes current flow, so the controller has to increase voltage in order to keep things spinning.  They are pretty sophisticated little guys, packing a lot of silicon and engineering into a pretty small space.  It's desirable to keep wire leads as short as possible; I chose to mount mine directly over the motor.  The three connectors are where the leads to the motor exit.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/ControllerMounting009_zps20ddc08b.jpg?1411081029510&1411081031573)

Eva uses two of these controllers on KillaJoule, although I'm assuming hers are "hot rodded" a bit to increase output.  The controller has to be matched with the motor pretty well or you can get unpredictable performance, never mind the risk of demagnetizing and ruining the motor.  Battery input is via a fuse and contactor (relay) into the back of the controller.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/CompletedBatteryPack002_zps5d7746e8.jpg?1411081029506&1411081031565)

Mounted in place:

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/ControllerMounting018_zps15c0ec97.jpg?1411082662615&1411082664481)

Braced underneath (to the motor face):

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/ControllerMounting019_zpscce91a57.jpg?1411082662616&1411082664483)

The space underneath is not wasted: there is a small sump mounted there (unpainted in the photo above) the coolant pump attaches directly to it.  Somewhere I have photos of the coolant loop but it's been over a year since I did the build and they must be hidden inside a sub-sub-directory or something.



Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 18, 2014, 07:34:30 PM
Batteries.  It's all about the batteries...   :cheers:  Actually everything has to work together.  There's no point in having a very sophisticated motor/controller system then try to feed it with flashlight batteries.  Likewise, there's no point in choosing batteries that are a lot more capable than needed for the rest of the system.  The analogy I make is that the batteries are like the fuel supply system in an internal combustion engine, the motor is like the engine and the controller is like the carburetor.  Any one of them can limit performance depending on their individual characteristics.

I went through a lot of investigation before choosing Enerdel, an Indiana-based company.  They make a pretty sophisticated lithium nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) cell that is a good compromise between power, energy and safety.  They're used in a lot of commercial applications like hybrid-buses.  They're also the battery used by Lightning Motorcycles.  They come in two flavors: "energy" or "power" modules.

There's a lot of different types of lithium batteries out there today, generically known as "lithium ion".  Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) is used in a lot of automobile conversions.  They are a pretty safe chemistry and typical format is prismatic (rectangular) which simplifies installation, although they are not as energy or power dense as other types.  Lithium Polymer (LiPo's) are commonly used in RC vehicles because they are very power dense but they are more susceptible to damage if over or under charged.  LiFePO4's have a nominal voltage of about 3.3 volts per cell and stay fairly flat when discharged i.e. the discharge curve is pretty flat as they give up current, then dives at the end.  Most LiPo's have a nominal voltage of 3.7 vpc and their discharge curve is not as flat.  The Enerdel NMC's have a discharge curve that mimics lead-acid in many respects.  On this bike I "lose" about one volt for each mile traveled.  I generally charge to 4.1 volts per cell for a starting voltage of about 393.  After 50 miles pack voltage will generally be around 345 or so.  It's a pretty convenient way to keep track of how much further I might go.  The trick is to avoid the ends of the discharge curve.  Don't overcharge and don't suck them down too far.

Enerdels are shipped in 12s2p modules.  Two cells are hooked together in parallel then twelve of these are hooked in series in one block.  I purchased eight such blocks or modules.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/EnerdelBatteries022_zps929e0e39.jpg?1411082664506)

The aluminum bits at the end are connected to sheets of aluminum separating each cell.  This conducts heat away from the cell for passive dissipation.  Enerdels are pretty unique in that the positive tab (connection point) is at one end of the cell with the negative tab at the other.  Supposedly this keeps heat generation uniform.

With the plastic finger guards removed you can see the busbars which make the series connection.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/EnerdelBatteries025_zps305b684c.jpg?1411085906424&1411085909817)

The cells in each module are clamped together by four insulated aluminum bolts with a nut on each end.  Things are pretty tight in front of the motor.  This is where I want to install the first subpack.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-Busatightfit002_zps04564813.jpg?1411085909841)

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/EnerdelBatteries027_zps36851c0a.jpg?1411086783601&1411086786374)


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 18, 2014, 07:51:41 PM
Because the cells are bolted together I was able to make my own modules using stainless steel threaded rod (1/4") inside carbon tubes to sleeve the rod and protect the cells in case of rubbing or other accidental contact.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-BusaFinalDetails001_zps7c797620.jpg?1411086783612&1411086786386)

Ultimately I ended up with 24 cells directly in front of the motor. The aluminum angle is part of the frame for the next 26 cells.  The cells are connected through insulators to aluminum sheet on the end of the pack.  This is bolted to the subframe.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/ControllerMounting001_zps1eb1b5b9.jpg?1411087239745&1411087242548)

The next group of 26 cells is fit on top of that.  Not shown: these are secured by a piece of steel bar bolted to the 'Busa frame.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/ControllerMounting006_zpsb0bf5120.jpg?1411087239744&1411087242547)

I had to spend some time thinking about where the "most negative" and "most positive" cells would be, and what the optimum wire runs would be.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Koncretekid on September 18, 2014, 08:32:33 PM
Frank,
Thanks for the great detailed description of your bike and the power system.  My mind is too full of internal combustion things to comprehend all of what you've described, but maybe in my next life......!  I hope that both Ed (my pit b*tch who is planning to build an electric bike after he finishes drag racing his Triumph triple) and I will get to witness your build next July at Loring for a better understanding.
Tom


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 19, 2014, 06:53:17 AM
Hi Tom,

I know what you mean!  When I semi-retired here in Maine it gave me a chance to explore EV's a bit more and they've given me an outlet to get my "tech fix" but it's hard to get past ICE's.  There's just so much energy stored in fossil fuels, a shame they won't last forever and that burning them isn't good.  My H2 is on the stand right now for race-ported cylinders, new carbs, etc. and I'll probably redo the crank, the seals are at least 12 years old.  I'm thinking to bring the E-Busa in July and the H2 at the Harvest Event (maybe my RD125 also, another open class, lol.)  It's all fun, life is good.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on November 09, 2014, 10:57:49 AM
We've had a pretty abrupt weather change here so it's time to think about firewood and winter projects.  I decided to up the ante and spring for the motor upgrade and I thought you guys might be interested in output curves.  The motor I'm running now is Series wound and has a ton of torque.  It's wonderful for the street but doesn't have as much power as the Parallel wound.  The parallel motor's torque is smaller but goes out a lot further.  Here's some curves to show what I mean.  There's a lot of lines on them but I don't know how to get rid of what is non-essential.  The torque output is solid red (top-most line) and power starts at zero (dashed red) and climbs linearly upward.

Series:

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/RemyHVH250SeriesOutput_zps8cfffe7f.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/RemyHVH250SeriesOutput_zps8cfffe7f.jpg.html)

Parallel:

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/RemyHVHParallelOutput_zpsa7e8cad1.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/RemyHVHParallelOutput_zpsa7e8cad1.jpg.html)


The series motor has constant torque of about 420 N-m or ~300 ft-lb out to about 2500 rpm, then drops off.  Power climbs linearly to ~100kW or 130hp.  I went through the traps at 140 mph (~5500 rpm), well off peak-power speed.  This chart says power there was only 85-90 hp so hopefully this means my aero is working pretty well.

The parallel motor on the other hand has constant torque of about 340 N-m or 250 ft-lb out to about 5500 rpm.  Power at this point is about 180 kW or 240 hp.  I know that's enough power for 200+ mph but I don't know if I'm that interested in those kind of speeds or not.  I might be able to run a smaller i.e. lighter battery pack for "sufficient" output to keep me happy.

Another advantage of the parallel motor is that the casing is slightly smaller which means I can raise the motor in the frame.  This will raise the output shaft in relation to the swingarm pivot which will unload the idler wheel I'm running.

From a street perspective, the torque numbers are at the countershaft sprocket.  Present gearing is 17/48 so I could make that even steeper to restore rear wheel torque, but I probably won't.  Even at its present "porkey" weight this bike is plenty quick.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: manta22 on November 09, 2014, 04:01:53 PM
How about trying a compound- wound motor?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on November 10, 2014, 07:45:44 PM
Neil, I've never heard of one being used in a traction application.  Brushed series motors are used all the time because of their high starting torque and cost effectiveness.  They're great for drag racing but don't have the duty cycle to perform for extended periods of running at high output.  That said, John Metric has driven his Miata drag car to 165 mph at the Houston Mile.  That car (Assault & Battery) has twin 9" motors and he was running them at about 50% output.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: sabat on September 20, 2015, 08:52:28 PM
Frank, did you make any passes at Loring this year? thanks, Dean


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 21, 2015, 07:06:04 AM
Hi Dean,

I did, but not on this bike (I had that old "NAPA Green" H1.)  This bike now has a new motor, controller mods and a new battery pack which should be here in about a week.  I was planning to update the build thread after the batteries are installed.  Power with the mods should be ~220hp and a smaller battery pack will remove ~175#.  I was hoping to have the word done for the Harvest Event but couldn't get things together.  It's street legal so I hope to get some riding in this year.

Thanks for asking.

Frank


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: sabat on September 21, 2015, 12:45:26 PM
Great, I look forward to the updates.  :cheers:


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Mobacken Racing on September 21, 2015, 01:43:05 PM
Really interesting project, it will be fun to follow your progress! :-)


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: firemanjim on September 21, 2015, 05:55:32 PM
Frank,looking for small 12 volt oil pump,what did you use for your bike?


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 21, 2015, 07:05:26 PM
First motor setup used this one:

(http://www.lightobject.com/Assets/ProductImages/D50F1250B_500.jpg)

http://www.lightobject.com/133Lm-210GPH-DC12V-Brushless-High-thrust-Water-Oil-pump-P659.aspx

I put an oil sump on that motor and this pumped oil (tranny fluid actually) through a small cooler and filter into the top of the motor pretty readily.  It draws about 2A.  I didn't want to modify the housing on the new motor and went with a turbo scavenge pump like this one:

(http://tool.mabangapp.com/customer/4/1084/143893853380179200218.jpg)

It has to move enough oil out of the motor sump so it doesn't back up (just like on a turbo.)  I'm using the same pump to dump oil back into the top of the motor, bit of a balancing act really.  It draws more juice though (about 6A I think.)  I haven't actually run this as part of the system yet, just filled the motor and cooling system and circulated for awhile.  It seems to work alright but is louder than the first little pump.  Note: in these applications I'm not relying on oil being pressurized at all, just some volume of it moving through the system.  Oil removes heat and makes sure the roller bearings don't run dry.   :cheers:


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on October 13, 2015, 06:03:07 PM
I finished my drag racing season this past Sunday so have some more time on my hands, might as well start updating this thread.

I had a good experience riding this bike last year but there were some obvious areas that needed improvement.  #1 was weight - it was hard to get an accurate measurement using the "big boy" bathroom scales I bought but it was at least 725#.  As I get older I prefer things a bit lighter!  #2 was power - while *very* torquey (300+ ft-lb) and a lot of fun to ride on the street, torque started cutting back around 70 mph and it really wasn't what I knew it could be.  Something else that was irritating was that I had limited lock-to-lock, fine for a race course but awkward on a street bike.

I started removing items, weighing them separately, then reweighing the bike in order to try to reconcile the totals.  I kept front and rear wheels level and weighed them independently.  I stripped off 280# of batteries and battery boxes alone!  While the old setup gave 100+ miles range on the street, it's more than I ever used.  I think I went 50 miles twice all last year.  I was pretty paranoid about keeping steel surrounding all the packs "just in case."  Ultimately I ended up with a rolling chassis that weighs about 235#.

The new setup uses a similar permanent magnet motor (Remy HVH250) but is parallel-wound (as opposed to the higher torque series-wound.)  I don't really understand what that means, just that the parallel motor can take a lot more current and output goes on longer.  Torque output is about 250 ft-lb but instead of starting to cut back at ~2600 rpm, it goes out to twice that.  According to Remy, power production should increase from ~100 kW (130 hp) to 180 kW (240 hp) with the controller mods I commissioned.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on October 13, 2015, 06:10:59 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-Busa%20Rebuild%206-15%20009_zpsesiwdzei.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/E-Busa%20Rebuild%206-15%20009_zpsesiwdzei.jpg.html)

Here's a shot of the new motor bolted down.  I had the new mounts (one on each end) waterjet cut out of .25" 6061 aluminum instead of the 1/4" steel plate used in the original build.  You can see the piece of 1/2" 6061 plate I used to support the motor mounts.  I drilled and tapped some 1/4-20 holes directly in this plate and bolted the sides down with grade 8 bolts.  You can also see some high-strength roll pins I used as dowels.  The whole rig sets on 1-1/2" square tubing I used in the original build, both to provide places to mount stuff and also to simulate the rigidity of the original engine.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on October 13, 2015, 06:18:36 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-Busa%20Rebuild%206-15%20008_zpsmasbu2xi.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/E-Busa%20Rebuild%206-15%20008_zpsmasbu2xi.jpg.html)

Similar construction on the drive end.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on October 14, 2015, 10:04:59 AM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-Busa%20Rebuild%20002_zps8do8dx60.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/E-Busa%20Rebuild%20002_zps8do8dx60.jpg.html)

Mostly completed drive end.  The "handle" shaped bracket is to make sure the sprocket doesn't come off should something go wrong with the shaft adapter.  The other piece of steel at the top (heading aft) is a torque arm.  I was able to mount this motor higher than the previous one which will allow me to use more regeneration.  I have a chain roller on the bottom of the chain path and even unloaded, the chain hardly touches it.  I only dialed-in enough regen with the previous setup to mimic engine braking.  The Rinehart controller will allow me to use variable regen should I so desire (I was uncomfortable exploring this option with a heavily loaded chain roller.)  Anti-squat might change too but I had preload dialed up a lot due to battery weight on the aft end of the bike.  I'll have to reset sag once I get everything back together.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: 55chevr on October 14, 2015, 03:53:26 PM
Frank ... can you dumb it down so a mechanical engineer can understand?


Joe


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Jessechop on October 14, 2015, 05:01:00 PM
Regeneration is the ability to act like a generator when not under power....well at least I think. Its been awhile since I have messed with anything even remotely similar.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on October 14, 2015, 05:29:29 PM
Hi Guys,

Sorry 'bout that.  Regeneration is indeed using the motor as a generator to put electrons back into the battery.  It saves a bit of energy but really helps the brakes.  Our daughter is now driving our 2006 Prius and I didn't have to put pads on it until ~200K miles.  My understanding with some cars (like Tesla Model S) is that you can basically drive with one pedal.  I could set my controller up like that I think but I would never do it; too much risk of locking up the rear wheel.  It is possible to have a second throttle or some sort of switch to pull in more regen if conditions warrant it.

The reason I didn't use too much with the original setup was that I didn't want to load the idler wheel on the bottom chain run too highly.  It normally runs sloppy of course but under heavy engine braking or regen it tightens right up.

HTH


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on October 17, 2015, 07:04:51 AM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-Busa%20Rebuild%20003_zpsiuufmqtp.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/E-Busa%20Rebuild%20003_zpsiuufmqtp.jpg.html)

The motor is cooled with ATF and I'm using a scavenge pump to ensure oil doesn't back up inside.  The small pump in front is for anti-freeze that cools the controller.  Small heat exchangers are mounted at the rear of the bike.  Both the motor and anti-freeze reservoir are vented to atmosphere i.e. not pressurized.  Both pumps will be inside the fairing and are serviceable from below.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on November 09, 2015, 06:54:21 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/New%20Battery%20Pack%20018_zpskmzjfh29.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/New%20Battery%20Pack%20018_zpskmzjfh29.jpg.html)

Finding real estate for everything is always a challenge, especially when adapting to an OEM frame.  Next time I'll build my own I think.  Main fuse, DC/DC converter, precharge circuit, main contactor, etc. all sit on top of the motor.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on November 09, 2015, 06:58:20 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/New%20Battery%20Pack%20019_zpshnlc6xyr.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/New%20Battery%20Pack%20019_zpshnlc6xyr.jpg.html)

I decided to keep using terminal strips (for now.)  They simplify trouble-shooting but could all be replaced by a couple of cable connectors.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: saltwheels262 on November 09, 2015, 07:35:05 PM
I think that motorcycle will go very fast.

But, that's a lot of wires that are basically only two colors.

Very good luck to you,
Bf262


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on November 10, 2015, 03:55:59 PM
Thanks.  I've taken a few rides, trying to make sure I haven't missed anything major.  It'll be a screamer!  I took a couple of low-power rides to exercise the batteries a bit.  I then cranked up the motor controller settings and just got back from a 10-mile loop.  Fun stuff!  It weighs in about 550# although it feels lighter than my gas 'Busa.  I love the EV grin!

Speaking of batteries, here's a couple of shots of the new pack.  Back: (one cell near top right shifted a bit during transport.)

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-Busa%20Battery%20Pack%20004_zps9saqqcgv.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/E-Busa%20Battery%20Pack%20004_zps9saqqcgv.jpg.html)

This is a 540kW pack (700+HP) even though the setup in this bike will never use more than 1/3 of that.  I've been drag racing another electric bike this year and have plans for this pack in another machine.

Front (you think there was a lot of wires in that other pic?):

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-Busa%20Battery%20Pack%20005_zpssdc6jdun.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/E-Busa%20Battery%20Pack%20005_zpssdc6jdun.jpg.html)

We decided to keep the main power connection wires outside the box for cooling.  This application doesn't really need much cooling but a drag machine will.  The exposed wires wick heat away from the cells.




Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on November 10, 2015, 03:57:55 PM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-Busa%20Battery%20Pack%20001_zpsuvrgyibv.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/E-Busa%20Battery%20Pack%20001_zpsuvrgyibv.jpg.html)

I built an aluminum frame to support/protect the pack.  Installed in the bike it's a lot neater looking.  I still have some guards to install.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on November 13, 2015, 04:46:50 PM
In addition to being a lot lighter this version will let me get down right behind the windscreen for (hopefully) improved aero.  Version 1.0 had a bunch of batteries mounted up high and you couldn't really get down that much.  Here's what it looked like at Loring:

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/Harvest%20Event%202014_zps591e7cv1.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/Harvest%20Event%202014_zps591e7cv1.jpg.html)

The pack is much more compact now.  I'll build a top cover that will support a rider's upper body this winter.  I also have to clean up the fairing patches which were put in place to block off unneeded air.

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/Test%20ride_zpsrekuaeut.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/Test%20ride_zpsrekuaeut.jpg.html)


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Koncretekid on November 13, 2015, 05:47:24 PM
Frank,
I plan on coming to the July meet so I hope you bring that bike.  I get confused just wiring a standard bike, so I'm sure I'd get lost with an electric one.  Electric seems so simple, yet so foreign to those of us used to internal combustion that I'm at a loss for words.
Tom


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on November 13, 2015, 06:15:48 PM
Hi Tom,

I'm planning to be there with this bike.  I'm a mechanical guy too so the learning curve is/was pretty steep.   :cheers:


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on November 14, 2015, 09:20:08 AM
I should add though that this isn't my first conversion (4th or 5th I think.)  I drag raced another e-bike this year too.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on August 20, 2016, 02:27:28 PM
A friend pointed out that I had neglected to update this thread so here goes...

Bike as raced at Loring's Maine Event this past July:

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-Busa%20Loring%20Summer%202016%20001_zpskkmmyyeu.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/E-Busa%20Loring%20Summer%202016%20001_zpskkmmyyeu.jpg.html)

had the following result:

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/E-Busa%20Loring%20Summer%202016%20007_zpsurlu3cni.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/E-Busa%20Loring%20Summer%202016%20007_zpsurlu3cni.jpg.html)

There's not much left power-wise but the bike was still accelerating so I'm hoping with some gearing changes (and minor aero mods) that I'll get over the magic number at the Labor Day "Harvest Event".


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Koncretekid on August 21, 2016, 05:26:57 PM
Best of luck, Frank.   I'm thinking that removing that passenger hand hold on the rear fender and the license plate might do the trick!  Unfortunately, I'll still be out west for the fall event.
Tom


Title: Re:
Post by: Frank06 on August 21, 2016, 06:18:55 PM
Thanks Tom, both those items are coming off.


Title: Re:
Post by: Frank06 on August 21, 2016, 06:21:29 PM
Are you going to be at BMST?


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: 55chevr on August 21, 2016, 07:34:17 PM
A Charlie Toy fairing would give significantly better aero.


Joe


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Jessechop on August 21, 2016, 07:40:35 PM
We had a 21 mph tailwind today, that could help too


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on August 22, 2016, 11:19:08 AM
A Charlie Toy fairing would give significantly better aero.


Joe

No doubt but I'm more interested in doing it with stock bodywork at this point.  Lightning did 206 (I think it was) in the mile at Mohave last year but with what I think is Kent's LSRB fairing.  As far as I know, nobody's done 200+ with a stock fairing.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on August 22, 2016, 11:19:48 AM
We had a 21 mph tailwind today, that could help too

I'll take it, lol!


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 05, 2016, 06:30:23 AM
I made some minor aero changes (stock windscreen, moving clip-ons in a bit, stock seat, removed hump, etc.) and had a good weekend:

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/Harvest%20Event%20Record%20Timeslip-small_zpscsfv8jho.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/Harvest%20Event%20Record%20Timeslip-small_zpscsfv8jho.jpg.html)

To the best of my knowledge this is the first street-legal electric vehicle with stock bodywork to exceed 200 mph in the standing start mile.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Koncretekid on September 06, 2016, 08:26:54 AM
Congratulations, Frank!  I knew you could do it and I'm sorry I missed it. See you next July.
Tom


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on September 06, 2016, 09:45:01 AM
Thanks Tom!  How were things at BMST for you?  I don't know why, but after seeing you in the registration line we never bumped into each other again.  I hope you had a bunch of passes.


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Frank06 on July 20, 2017, 10:45:54 AM
I stuck a video camera on for the one full-power pass I made last Saturday.  Batteries were cool but it was still a decent run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKpPurk5L7k


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: Rex Schimmer on July 21, 2017, 01:19:26 PM
That is impressive!!! When you think about the technology that is going into the electric motors, batteries and controllers for electric vehicles these day I truly believe that a top dollar deal with state of the art parts  could be a contender for the "First to 500" prize. Think Elon would like to sponsor a car??

Rex 


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: dakota9498 on August 02, 2017, 04:49:51 PM
That is awesome!  Any idea what your half-mile speed was?  Just curious because half-mile events are the only ones that I have been able to run so far due to my deployment schedule, I hope to make it to Mojave next year though.


Title: Re:
Post by: Frank06 on August 03, 2017, 09:01:26 PM
Unfortunately I have no idea what the half-mile speed was.  It's pretty run out at about 3/4 mile or so; my guess would be 180-190?


Title: Re: Re:
Post by: Frank06 on August 03, 2017, 09:02:48 PM
Unfortunately I have no idea what the half-mile speed was.  It's pretty run out at about 3/4 mile or so; my guess would be 180-190?
...that sounds high now that I read it...  ??


Title: Re: E-Busa
Post by: dakota9498 on August 03, 2017, 09:18:50 PM
Thanks for the reply, I could see the half mile being pretty high considering the acceleration on an electric motorcycle should be pretty good even with street gearing.