Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Sumner on January 07, 2014, 06:54:15 PM
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If you are looking for taller gears (lower numerical gear ratio) for a land speed car there are a few choices. With a Ford 9 inch 2.47 is as low as you will be able to go. There has been talk of a few lower ratios being made, but I've never found them after extensive searches and phone calls.
In the GM line 2.41 is it for most of the popular rearends that can handle more HP. The 10 bolt 7.5 rear though does have 2.28 and 2.14 gears and these rearends have been used with success. One example is Sparky used one in his low 900 HP na BBC to set records in the high 200's and low 300's. The car weighed a little over 3000 lb.. You can also find Torsen type posi's from late 90's Camaro's for these rearends at a resonable price new on ebay. The Torsen has a positive aspect to it in that it can transfer power from the wheel without traction to the one with traction if different ratios. I'm using one of these rearends in the lakester with the Torsen and 2.14 gears but doubt this car will ever have more than 900 HP if that.
Hooley's Stude has had a 2.47 nine inch Ford rearend and runs a G-Force 101A transmission that lets him run an overdrive 3rd gear as 4th gear with the old 4th (1 to 1) now 3rd. To keep the jump between 3rd and 4th in the 15% or less range it would be nice to put in a rear with the 2.14 or 2.28 ratio. Problem is the car is heavy, over 5000 lb., and with the twin turbos on the 572 BBC now has the potential of 1500+ HP levels. It is doubtful if the GM 7.5 is up to the HP and the weight.
One option we have been pursuing is a kind of odd-ball GM rearend that was made for the heavier GM cars in the 70's. It is the GM 8.75 that is in a 10 bolt housing but there again not the housing you normally see as a 10 bolt.
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-6.jpg)
It looks like the one in the picture above with the inward scallops on the sides of the cover by the axle tubes. It came with 28 and 31 spline axles and the ring gear is held on with 12 bolts vs. the more normal 10 bolts for ring gears in other 10 Bolt rearends. It has a 1 1/4 inch pinion nut with 3 inch axle tubes.
The lowest ratio for this rearend is a 2.28 (no 2.14) but the good news is that it is a very strong rearend compared to the 7.5 10 bolt. The ring and pinion gears and the pinion shaft are all much larger than the 7.5 inch rearend. It looks like a very good choice for the Studebaker and probably a number of other cars that run over 275 mph but for a couple facts about it.
So what is the 'bad'? The rearend was never popular with the aftermarket, probably mainly because most are looking for a rearend with much lower gears for the dragstrip just the opposite the gearing requirements for our needs and there were other popular rearends, such as the 9 inch Ford, with those ratios. You can find some with a posi, but Eaton only made the posi for GM (not as an aftermarket) and talking to Eaton on the phone they no longer support the rearend so posi parts are going to have to probably be found used or NOS. Also I can not find anyone who made a spool for the rearend so unless you want to run it open or with a posi that might not be serviceable you are out of luck.
I've made a couple calls to see if anyone is interested in making a spool for the rearend. Mark Williams said they might be interested and said they could make axles and I have a lead with another manufacture that I haven't heard back from that might be able to make a spool. Ford axle ends can be welded on to get around the C-clip issue.
So, the reason I've posted all of this is to see if anyone else might be interested in this rearend and in a spool for one. I'm figuring that if someone was to make more than one spool the price would come down and they might be more interested in taking this on.
If you are interested please post here on landracing.com or send me a PM or if you are reading this on my site send me an email at:
( contact20 (at) purplesagetradingpost (dot) com
Also if anyone has any other info on this rearend I'd like to hear about it.
Below are pictures comparing 7.5 ring and pinion gears vs. the 8.75 and more info about the 8.75 can be found here.....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Rearend_identification#10_bolt (http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Rearend_identification#10_bolt)
As you can see there were a number of cars with these rearends so finding one is not that hard and I've seen posts on the internet where guys with 2.28 gears are trying to find lower gears to improve performance so the 2.28 gear sets are out there,
Sum
NOTE: You might want to go to my site here....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/gm%207%201-2%20vs%20gm%208%203-4.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/gm%207%201-2%20vs%20gm%208%203-4.html)
... and bookmark this page just in case this might be of interest to you in the future.
=================== More Pictures ( click on the link for larger versions)===============
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-1.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-1.jpg (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-1.jpg)
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-2.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-2.jpg (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-2.jpg)
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-3.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-3.jpg (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-3.jpg)
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-4.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-4.jpg (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-4.jpg)
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-5.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-5.jpg (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-5.jpg)
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Good info, Sum-- thanks.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Summ I am sure it is a 2.14 ratio not a 2.19
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Summ I am sure it is a 2.14 ratio not a 2.19
You are right. I had 2.14 on the picture and then screwed up with the 2.19 in the text and then screwed up and changed the picture to 2.19.
Well I went and un-screwed up all of that and hopefully changed it all to the correct 2.14. Does that make sense :oops:
Sum
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If anyone is interested I have already made a spool for 1 of these, as well as a 2 series 12 bolt Car. The splines are being broached this Week. I used 4340 Prehard. These were pretty common in Cadillac's. Just beware there is an early and late version. I can also get used gears rem polished. Give me a call to discuss details Steve 812-305-0710
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... Just beware there is an early and late version. I can also get used gears rem polished. Give me a call to discuss details Steve 812-305-0710
Can you elaborate on the 2 versions and which we should be looking for and I'll be giving you a call tomorrow (01-08-14) and thanks,
Sum
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Sum, seemed like a good place to mention this;
10 bolt GM 2.14:1 rear end is for sale. Complete as is with Mark Williams axles & Wilwood disc brakes. Ran over 285 MPH in a lakester.
PM if interested
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GM also made a 2.29 ratio in the very strong 12 bolt rearends. They are hard to find but they are out there.
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I looked for 5 years in 7 states. The only one I ever found were the ones in CA that some one had a few sets made. They wanted $5000. per set if I remember correctly---From the factory they came 1 year in a Chevy Station wagon with at 396 with 2 barrel carb ---again if my memory serves me :-o
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IIRC, I think the 2.29's were also available in mid to late 70 chevy, full size, highway patrol and some police spec cars.
Al's Weismann transaxle was based on the 12 bolt R&P. He ran them, the 2.29's, until he came up with a set of, I think, 2.14's that Lingenfelter (sp) had special made for the 12 bolt. Talk about hens teeth. Made out of pure unobtanium.
Ron
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Sum,
Not trying to derail your thead, but has anyone ever thought about having a lower numerical gear for the 9" Ford made? Or is a 2.47 the lowest numerical that can be made?
Tom G.
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MacDonald and Pitts have two sets of the Lingenfelter gears, broke both pinion shafts a couple of years back and machined them out to accept new shafts and so far so good with the patch. They are in fact made of Unobtanium.............. that's what going out the back door at 311 in a Firebird with a flat torque line will do to you.........
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The Ford 8.8 (Mustang/Explorer) might also be looked at. Some Rangers had a 2.47 8.8 gear, and the Explorers and GT Mustangs usually have a factory posi, and the 1995 and up Explorers have 31 spline axles. Both have disc brakes, and if you use two short Explorer axles, it ends up about 57" flange to flange. Bob
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It would be interesting to know where/who the 25 sets of 2.14:1 (Some say 2.13:1) are to day....
Al Teague 'liner (2)
Mindinberg's vette had a set
Lindsey & Leggett firebird?
MacDonald & Pitts (2)
Jonn Rains firebird?
Kugel & LeFevers firebird
Eakers & Staggermeyer (Linginfelter) (2 or 3)?
Others???
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Sum,
Not trying to derail your thead, but has anyone ever thought about having a lower numerical gear for the 9" Ford made? Or is a 2.47 the lowest numerical that can be made?
Tom G.
I guess someone somewhere made taller gears for the Ford 9 inch but I could never find any for sale. I heard they had some for NASCAR at one time but no idea on the ratio and there again I did a lot of calling and never found any. One guy was advertising them 4-5 years back but when I called he said the ratio in the add was a mistake.
I have a feeling having them made would require a number of sets and be quite expensive. I'd think having spools made for this GM 8 3/4 in some kind of quantity would be a lot less expensive. I talked to Steve today and the one he has made is setup for 35 spline axles. So with those axles and ford tubes of the proper length and the spool you would be ready to go.
Bob I can't see the advantage of the smaller Ford since the 2.47 gears are available for the 9 inch (what we have been using).
So far I guess no one wants to add their name to the list of "I'd like a spool maybe" so I guess a quantity deal isn't going to happen. Possibly since Steve has a prototype he would be willing to either make more or for a development fee let some manufacture takes his and duplicate it? He told me that he would work with us, but not sure if he really wants to go into production or not? Steve??
Sum
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Sum, I was looking at it from the standpoint of H.P. loss. I don't know if the 8.8 (which must be set up in the axle housing ala 10 or 12 bolts) is more efficient, but it might be worth looking into especially for some of the moderate H.P. vehicles.
I think the limiting factor on a 9" might be fitting a larger pinion in the pumkin. The pinion gear on the 2.47 is pretty darn big and the ring gear is pretty darn thin.
Bob
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I was talking to Rick MacCambridge who runs a D fuel lakester, The Pickle, and has a 9 inch Ford with the 2.47 ratio and he said that someone has had a special patch of R&Ps made for the 9 inch with a 2.30 ratio. Says they are expensive but has one on order. Also that ratio was apparently available in some Lincolns and there was a golf cart manufacture that used the 9 inch (wonder why???) and they both used a 2.3 gear. I will try to find out who it is that has these.
Rex
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I was talking to Rick MacCambridge who runs a D fuel lakester, The Pickle, and has a 9 inch Ford with the 2.47 ratio and he said that someone has had a special patch of R&Ps made for the 9 inch with a 2.30 ratio. Says they are expensive but has one on order. Also that ratio was apparently available in some Lincolns and there was a golf cart manufacture that used the 9 inch (wonder why???) and they both used a 2.3 gear. I will try to find out who it is that has these.
Rex
Rex,
That would be much appreciated as I would be interested in a set of those if available.
Tom G.
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Any news on that 2.3:1 ratio yet?.
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FWIW Several years ago when I was chasing gears, I talked to someone that said Ford made, around 2.30. gears. I called around to several places and talked to a race parts distributing company. The guy I talked to looked it up in an old "Ford Motorsports", or whatever they called it then, parts book and the 2.30's were listed by part number. He said he had been around race cars and parts for years and had never seen a set. Maybe there is a set or two lying around on some dusty shelf.
My guess, and that's all it is, is Ford was planning for faster speeds on the super speedways, then NASCAR went to smaller motors, more rpm, more gear not needed.
Ron
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FWIW Several years ago when I was chasing gears, I talked to someone that said Ford made, around 2.30. gears. I called around to several places and talked to a race parts distributing company. The guy I talked to looked it up in an old "Ford Motorsports", or whatever they called it then, parts book and the 2.30's were listed by part number. He said he had been around race cars and parts for years and had never seen a set. Maybe there is a set or two lying around on some dusty shelf.
My guess, and that's all it is, is Ford was planning for faster speeds on the super speedways, then NASCAR went to smaller motors, more rpm, more gear not needed.
Ron
Yep, I spent hours on the internet and phone trying to run down those 'phantom' gears. There probably are a set out there someplace, but where?
The 2.28 8 3/4 gears,that should be plenty strong for the majority of us needing taller gears, are out there and not that hard to find relatively. Just need a spool for them. Looks like from this thread though that there is no real interest or maybe need for them or the others that might need them aren't on this site.
We are set for next summer with our current gears but are not done researching this for an answer that will work and is economical,
Sum
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Jegs has a mini spool available for that rear end for $100.
Isn't the main reason for a spool, lighter rotating weight, for throttle response, as in circle track racing ( whatever that is )? Lighter doesn't bother us as much. My 32" Dunlops on 18" Hoppy's wheels weight 74 lbs each, so a little less rear end mass wouldn't be much help.
Ron
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The spool is an absolute locker as the differential gears are totally eliminated. Both drive wheels always rotate at the same rate. It either works or it doesn't on the salt.
Pete
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"It either works or it doesn't on the salt."
And we're sure of that!! :-D :-D
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"It either works or it doesn't on the salt."
And we're sure of that!! :-D :-D
And if it doesn't you'll probably be facing from whence you came!!!
Pete
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A mini spool is a cheap fix to get both wheels locked together but it still transfers the power through the spider gear shaft from the carrier & thats a weak point. A full spool is a carrier with splines so it eliminates that problem. Some people like a spool on the salt & some don't.
Once you get into the high ratio gears, pretty much a 2.anything really, the pinion is sneaking up on half the size of the ring gear so it's gunna be a big muther & the plus with that is lots of tooth contact/strength. The 9" has the pinion support bearing that most dont which would likely be a small power loss but look at a quickchange. It's got all that plus a lower shaft, plus spur gears & another cuppla bearings in the cover. Talk about a HP suckin bitch & then you have to overdrive the pinion to get some speed out of the 4.11's. Any advantage from it not being a Hypoid has long gone before it gets there.
The biggest gear you can run without going to OD puts you HP ahead.
Sid.
ps Both gear sets we had in Betsy went with her.
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If the pins are the problem, Some of the bigger Ford cars (Lincoln ) for sure, came with 4 gear differentials with four pins. There are 9" mini spools for 4 pins available. Think tires would spin before shearing four pins.
A friend broke a 9" spool in his drag car.
Ron
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Jegs has a mini spool available for that rear end for $100...
Thanks, but I don't see one for the 8 3/4?? As was mentioned it isn't as strong as a full spool which is what we want if we go this route,
Sum
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Ron, dirt 1/2 circle track is what we do to keep from spending $$$$ on motel rooms in August. Mini spools work perfectly with a floater 6.30 gear, 550 HP, and rear tires 2" different in diameter. :cheers:
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I just got off of the phone with Mike Feldner of M.F. Performance. HE IS THE MAN PRODUCING THE 2.30 FORD 9" REAR END GEARS AND HAS THEM IN STOCK.
That is the good news.
The bad news is the price ............... $4200. a set.
The reason is because these gears are manufactured by a grinding process as they can not be made be conventional Hobbs gear cutters.
He made twelve sets, and the Blowfish and Speed Demon are running them.
Mike said that he still has SIX sets left. Bob
Mike Feldner (715) 452-3817
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That's a bunch. But might deliver more than an expensive quick change using more gears to get the same ratio.
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Speed Demon runs a quick change
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I think the demon has run a quick change, a custom weisman, but I don't know about a 9".
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I was advised to stop looking for the obscure Ford 9" ratios. Good advice but I'm bull headed.
I've been looking at a Winters Xtremeliner and it's more affordable that those ratios from MF.
I was at the classic car club yesterday and a friend Hamish said there was a gear cutting business he used that did hypoid gears for him.
Even though we're in South Africa we do have some very good engineering facilities and guys that know their stuff.
I'm going to see the gear cutter on Monday. Hamish's day job is all things Rolls Royce and I've seen jet engines at his place so the guy does have high standards.
If he says the guy cuts good gears there might be an affordable solution there and one offs are not a problem. He said the guy ran the set he had made on a jig to bed the gears in.
Not sure of the exact term.
I'll let you know if Hamish was on the money or he had a few too many ales. :-D
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get a 12 bolt gm 2.29 gear
call strange engineering..
get their drop out 9" ford center section that takes a 12 bolt gear..
there you go, a high pinion 12 bolt, with a high ratio gear in a 9" ford
bob
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get a 12 bolt gm 2.29 gear
call strange engineering..
get their drop out 9" ford center section that takes a 12 bolt gear..
there you go, a high pinion 12 bolt, with a high ratio gear in a 9" ford
bob
That is what Tom has been telling us also. It is on the table. The hard part so far has been trying to locate the 12 bolt 2.29 gear itself?
Sum
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I may have misunderstood Mike about the Speed Demon. He may have told me that The Speed Demon guys were running one in the Blowfish, or maybe they modified the quick change to use the gears........................
My mind sometimes goes into overdrive with only a underdrive capacity......................... one run, out.
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maybe something like this would work.. fits 9" fords
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That is a Jones quickchange and I think Russ Meeks runs one. The Tea Baron bought one from a friend of mine here in Vancouver and then he listed it for sale on this site about two years ago. I don't know if he sold it or not................. Bob
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(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44796;image)
Thanks for the pictures. Tom told me about those and before that I've spent many a night laying in bed designing one I could make using quick change gears. One problem I see is that to get the rotation right going into the rear you need to have two sets of gears vs. one set in a conventional quickchange and that means more HP loses and also the gears are a lot harder to change, but at least you could change them vs. just one gear in the rearend.
The guys that run the long nose yellow stude out of Wash. made an inline box that I think had a driveshaft on both sides that did about the same. It was a nice one-off piece of engineering that with the driveshafts would work with any trans/rearend combo if you had the room,
Sum
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At one time I thought about making a gear changing unit like the Jones's but using a belt instead and having the drive shaft off to the side. I think it would be good for 1000 HP. on the salt.
Tom G.
PS. Thanks Bob D. for the phone number for the 2.30 gears. I think the SD streamliner ran a 9 inch ford unit once, after they blew everything else they had up. At least that is what I remember I think Ray the Rat posted that information one time. I also think it only lasted one run.
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Has anybody found 10 bolt 2.29's and 2.14's to be not strong enough . A Casale V-drive would work the same as the Jones QC . It takes a bunch of grinding and welding up windows in a Strange dropout to get 2 series 12 bolt gears to fit .
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Has anybody found 10 bolt 2.29's and 2.14's to be not strong enough . ...
I'm assuming you mean the 7.5 rear. That is what I'm now using and has worked for Sparky with 900+ HP in the past. He will also be the tester for much higher HP numbers now that he has 2 turbos.
I'm leery of that route with Hooley's 5000+ lb. Stude and hopefully some 1400+ HP numbers at some point. I've found 26 spline full spools for the 7.5 but that is it so far as an over the counter item (probably some 28's out there). Sparky runs a Torsen center and that is what I'm going to run and it is 28 splines. There again 28 splines in the 1200+ HP heavy car might not work. Thus the reason I still haven't given up finding a reasonable, read not super expensive solution using the 8.75 with the 2.28 gears that aren't that hard to find for Hooley's car,
Sum
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... I think the demon has run a quick change, a custom weisman, but I don't know about a 9"...
If I remember right, the Weisman is a unique configuration, not using Ford 9" nor any other ring and pinion design. It eliminates the inefficiency of hypoid gears by driving first through a bevel gearset (non-offset), then through spur gears (including a quickchange set) to the differential case (or maybe directly to the axles, can't remember).
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The problem with the Jones and other "front" quickchange boxes is that you're still spinning the differential's pinion fast. This may or may not be a problem. This anecdote about Mickey Thompson comes to mind: when planning his assault on Cobb's record (408?), the first pieces he "whittled out" were the 1:2 ratio spur gear sets to be employed at each wheel- to avoid pinion shafts needing to spin 13,000 RPM!
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Joe Law at one point was turning his QC pinion 16,000 rpm and it worked alright as far as I know . Has anybody had rpm related pinion bearing problems .
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I looked into using a Strange Engineering drop out 12 bolt for the 2.29 gear set in a 9" Ford. The problem is it will only work with a series 1 or 2 gear set and the 2.29:1 is a series 3 and won't fit the case IIRC.
As a side note Glen Deeds & Bill Ward both ran 7.5" rear ends with Deeds roadster twin turbocharged making well over 1500 hp (record 282)
and Wards ran a blown big block in a Opel. So I'd say it's already been proven to work. History can be your friend....
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Back in the 1980's, I talked to a team that was having pinion bearing problems with their Halibrand champ Q-Change when running 300 mph. Their problem got solved by changing ring and pinion in the Q-Change from 4.11 to 3.63. Also that was before synthetic oil was common.
Tom G.
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I looked into using a Strange Engineering drop out 12 bolt for the 2.29 gear set in a 9" Ford. The problem is it will only work with a series 1 or 2 gear set and the 2.29:1 is a series 3 and won't fit the case IIRC.
As a side note Glen Deeds & Bill Ward both ran 7.5" rear ends with Deeds roadster twin turbocharged making well over 1500 hp (record 282)
and Wards ran a blown big block in a Opel. So I'd say it's already been proven to work. History can be your friend....
Thanks, that is good info. Nice to have someone who knows the history :cheers:, so maybe we will reconsider the 7.5 for the Stude. The only bad thing will be hearing Sparky telling me "I told you so" :cry:
Sum
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Mike, forgot to ask ..... what were they running for a center section? Spool, Posi, minispool, welded spiders? Also do you know by any chance how many splines the axles were?
Thanks,
Sum
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Sum,
I am not familiar with the GM 7.5 inch rear end. What is the smallest diameter of the pinion shaft that could twist in two. That is an area where you might find the weak link.
Years ago when Flatfire was running, Speedway Engineering found a 3.5 or 3.6 ratio that would fit into the Q-change in the car. When the car started to approach the 300mph range they were starting to twist the pinion shaft. To my knowledge non ever broke, but I know they did replace one or two gear sets for those reasons.
Below is a Q-change pinion shaft from the Modified Roadster that I own. The previous owner had a blown fuel motor in the car that made 3000 Hp and 3000 Ft lbs Torque. The ring and pinion were 1-1 with Q-change gears making the final drive as I recall 1.67-1 or there about. This part of the pinion would twist when the the tires would spin then bite at El Mirage. The torque spike at that instant was too great for the minor diameter of the Quick change pinion shaft.
This car was only run at El Mirage, except for going to Bonneville once, where it ran the fastest 2 1/4 mile speed ever run at the time, but a transmission bearing keep it from possibly setting a record. The only reason I am mentioning this is that depending on conditions the traction at El Mirage can be much better than Bonneville, so if you are building a high HP car with lots of torque to run both venues, you might want to take that into consideration.
Tom G.
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Just measured a 2.14 pinion I have have . The input splines are 1.17" od , Past the splines the smallest diameter is 1.125" and the outer bearing journal is 1.187".
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..I am not familiar with the GM 7.5 inch rear end. What is the smallest diameter of the pinion shaft that could twist in two. That is an area where you might find the weak link...
You make a good point there. The pinion shaft is ....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/7%201-2%20vs%208%203-4%20rearend-3.jpg)
... as you can see, a bit smaller in dia. on the 7.5 than the larger 8.75 and I'm not real sure of the dia. of the axles at this point as I haven't pulled them, but with that in mind and what Mike said (and Sparky) the 7 1/2 might work for the Stude also.
I will go with 28 spline aftermarket axles for my car and we would do the same with the Stude as the Torsen takes 28 splines. Most 7.5's with the stock carrier are 26 spline. There are also some full spools out there for them, but more expensive than the Ford stuff. After what I saw Sparky do with his old car and the way it hooked up I think the Torsen is the way to go and you can find them for under $150 on ebay. They, like most carriers come in two series and you need the 2 series for the tall gears. They came in Camaro/Firebirds, late 90's early 2000's.
The pinion shaft is 27 splines on the 7.5 and it took me a while to find a 1350 yoke for it but I did. I bit the bullet and got the longer splined G-Force transmission yoke (1350 also) and it is rated for way more HP than I'll ever make but if I sell the transmission down the road someone else might benefit from it. I'm having a 10 inch drive-shaft made up. It should be done in a week or so when they get the yoke from G-Force,
Sum
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Clicking "driveshaft comparrison" at this site gives vertical pinion offsets for common rears which can be helpful information .
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CC4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.truehi9.com%2F&ei=nHLcUuKHN4S-sQTb14HwBw&usg=AFQjCNGYKxLHXsmqrSeZOrX6xV0unEjk3g&bvm=bv.59568121,d.cWc&cad=rja
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The Sonoma with a 10 bolt has a flat four bolt pinion flange on the rear if anybody is interested.
Also I had Mike at B&J build me some Greek Couplers for my 7.5 10 bolt 4WD setup in the liner so he has them available now too.
Sid.
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Bingo!
I found a company capable of manufacturing 9" gear sets.
The owner is not phased about quantity but I need to get the centre section to him.
He knew right away what I was talking about as he's done Ford 9" hypoid before for drag racing over here.
I was given all the technical jargon about why he needed the centre section intact.
I'll give you all an update on the progress.
One photo of his work.
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Hey Sum(yeah and the rest of ya) our 7.5 install is a kind of(I think) unique one in that we essentially transplanted the GM pumpkin with a Torsen centre between the Ford axle tubes , we used Ford 28 spline axles AND I used the Ford yoke that came off the 8.8(or whatever it is, we call it a "Borg Warner")...the only thing I had to do was make a spacer because the collar on the pinion spline is shorter on the Ford yoke and wouldn't put the preload on the bearing.....
Some think like that anyway......
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Sum, I left a 7.5" out of a Camero at Randy Jackson's(wrenchbender).
Hooley could call Randy and grab it, if he wants.
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Hey Sum(yeah and the rest of ya) our 7.5 install is a kind of(I think) unique one in that we essentially transplanted the GM pumpkin with a Torsen centre between the Ford axle tubes , we used Ford 28 spline axles AND I used the Ford yoke that came off the 8.8(or whatever it is, we call it a "Borg Warner")...the only thing I had to do was make a spacer because the collar on the pinion spline is shorter on the Ford yoke and wouldn't put the preload on the bearing.....
Some think like that anyway......
Yes we also need to change to the Ford ends for the rules. Which axle tubes did you use? The 7 1/2 I have has 2 5/8 inch tubes and the Ford ones that I've seen are 3 inch. The Fords have 3/16 inch (sorry for the non-metric talk) thick tubes so 2 times 3/16 is 3/8 the difference between the O.D. of the 7.5 and the I.D. of the Ford tubes. To me that looks like I could cut the GM tubes a ways outside the pumpkin and slide Ford tubes on them cut to the right length and weld them to the pumpkin and also plug weld them to the GM stubs inside of them?
Does the Ford 8 inch have smaller tubes? I'd like to mill the plug welds out of the stock tubes and pull them out and just put new tubes in. I could weld Ford outer bearing ends on the axle tubes I have but I think the track width might then be too narrow as the 7 1/2 I have has a narrow tread width. I'll know more if that will work soon.
Interesting about the yoke but I was able to find the 1350 yoke on sale for $94 and it is a direct fit. Thanks for the info about the Ford 28 spline axles working as I have the same center section.
Sum, I left a 7.5" out of a Camero at Randy Jackson's(wrenchbender).
Hooley could call Randy and grab it, if he wants.
Thanks, and I'm sure we want it (Hooley doesn't know yet but I'll call him). Either he or John will go and get it and thanks,
Sum
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Sorry Sum I don't spend much time on a full size computer and I've jjust spent half an hour trying to find the relevant bits on my fartsmone.......go to page 165 of Australian Bellytank,halfway down the page are some pics.....I got some hollow bar turned down and we just used some massive all-thread to pull it into the axle tubes from the pumpkin. That suited us because our rear end is narrowly supported and doing that pur a lot more metal in there.
Trust me those plug welds are harder than goatskneesium, it's due to the weld alloying with some nickel or something, don't point any expensive tools at them,blow them out,ask Sparky, he'll confirm that.
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Sorry Sum I don't spend much time on a full size computer and I've jjust spent half an hour trying to find the relevant bits on my fartsmone.......go to page 165 of Australian Bellytank,halfway down the page are some pics.....I got some hollow bar turned down and we just used some massive all-thread to pull it into the axle tubes from the pumpkin. That suited us because our rear end is narrowly supported and doing that pur a lot more metal in there.
Trust me those plug welds are harder than goatskneesium, it's due to the weld alloying with some nickel or something, don't point any expensive tools at them,blow them out,ask Sparky, he'll confirm that.
Thanks for all of that, now get back to work on your car so you can go racing :cheers:,
Sum
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And um, the fasteners in the ring gear are left hand thread,aren't they Colonel..........
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And um, the fasteners in the ring gear are left hand thread,aren't they Colonel..........
Damn, no wonder they seem so tight :roll: :cheers:
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Maybe it would be easier and better to design and build a rear end from scratch for LSR. Has anyone tried?
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Sum,
I'm not sure John k is up to getting that rear end yet! I'll be down in 2-1/2 weeks, and if Hooley doesn't have it yet, I'll get it delivered to him.
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George Parker built one. That is what I have in my Modified Roadster. I don't think he sold very many. He ran one in his Streamliner, so it is out there somewhere. There is the one in my modified, and Doug Robinson had bought one, which he never used. They were a Quick Change unit with either a 1.5-1 or 1-1 Ring and pinion. I really wish there was room for a 2-1 Ring and Pinion but so far I have not been able to locate any that will fit.
The other one that has been built is the Winters Extremeliner that is available with a 2-1 Ring and pinion. It takes different Quick Change gears than the standard 10 spline.
It would be interesting to ask Winters if they could put the 2-1 Ring and pinion in their Banjo Style full size rearend.
Strasburgs (sp) make a LSR quickchange, but I don't know anything about it.
I am sure there are others but these are a few.
Tom G.
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Maybe it would be easier and better to design and build a rear end from scratch for LSR. Has anyone tried?
Actually Tom Burkland and Hub City did something like that I think. Tom has 1:1 Hub City drives in the liner. The gear box is centered pinion with very large timkins, large shafts, and is a very heavy duty piece. They are not cheap
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George Parker built one. That is what I have in my Modified Roadster. I don't think he sold very many. He ran one in his Streamliner, so it is out there somewhere. There is the one in my modified, and Doug Robinson had bought one, which he never used. They were a Quick Change unit with either a 1.5-1 or 1-1 Ring and pinion. I really wish there was room for a 2-1 Ring and Pinion but so far I have not been able to locate any that will fit.
I am not sure but I think the unit Doug had went with George's liner when Doug sold it.
George Parker also built a transmission that is a thing of beauty with Hewland internals. I don't know how many he built, the one I have is from his VOT he was working on before he passed away. Tony
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We put an Xtremeliner in the Salt Cat ll lakester last year. About $5000 by the time you get it done and have the brakes on it. We opted for the 2:0 r&p in it. The change gears are about 1 1/2 times thicker than the regular gears. You do need to give them a couple of months lead time if you order one.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Doug,
How many splines are on the Quickchange gears for the Extremeliner, and what are the measurements of the splines? How thick are they? Sorry, but I cannot find that information on Winters site.
Thanks for any help,
Tom G.
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Tom,
We had the same problem. Their site doesn't have much info about the Xtremeliner. I 'll have to go to the shop and get that info. I would put some pictures on here but I am working on a laptop and my regular computer and my photo drive are in the nursing home getting upgraded.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Dick Holt made a number of quick changes and used Arrow Precision gears with R&P ratios in the 1:1 and 2:1 range. Don't know what he used for change gears but if I see him at Jack's this week I will ask. They were pretty tough and I think he said that he sold the design to the B&J tranny folks.
Rex
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Any images of a 1:1 ring/pinion set to share with the unwashed? :-)
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The Extremeliner uses 22 spline gears. They were made like that to stop the splitting up through the square spline on the really small gears like the 2:18 set in the picture next to a set of 22 spline gears. The Extremeliner and the Champ rears have the same center line between the Pinion and the lower shaft and the gear sets are the same width. The rear cover has huge bearings, an upgrade from the Champ rear.
Hope this helps.
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Pictures missing...sorry
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The Extremeliner uses 22 spline gears. They were made like that to stop the splitting up through the square spline on the really small gears like the 2:18 set in....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/gear-set-1.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/gear-set-1.jpg
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/gear-set-1.jpg)
..... the picture next to a set of 22 spline gears. The Extremeliner and the Champ rears have the same center line between the Pinion and the lower shaft and the gear sets are the same width. The rear cover has huge bearings, an upgrade from the Champ rear.
Hope this helps.
My goal is to have an Extremeliner in the lakester someday :-),
Sum
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Any images of a 1:1 ring/pinion set to share with the unwashed? :-)
Jack,
Check out this site. Plenty of information. http://www.arrowgear.com/index.html
Tom G.
The Extremeliner uses 22 spline gears. They were made like that to stop the splitting up through the square spline on the really small gears like the 2:18 set in the picture next to a set of 22 spline gears. The Extremeliner and the Champ rears have the same center line between the Pinion and the lower shaft and the gear sets are the same width. The rear cover has huge bearings, an upgrade from the Champ rear.
Hope this helps.
Joe,
Thanks for the information and pictures. Some more question for you, what is the major and minor diameter of either the pinion shaft where the gears slide on or the gears themselves? When ordering a 2.0 R&P in the unit can you chose from either a 31 spline spool, or Winters Track, or are you limited to just the Winters Track? Is the Winters Track set up for 31 spline axles? And how much for a Extremliner with a 2.0 ring and pinion with side covers, and the cost of the quickchange gears? You can PM me if you want on the cost. Thanks for the help.
Tom G.
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... this site. Plenty of information. http://www.arrowgear.com/index.html...
Thanks Tom. But I didn't find any images of the pieces needed to house a 1:1 ring & pinion- 3rd member housing and differential case (or its substitute- spool or whatever) that mounts the ring gear. I'm having trouble conjuring up a mental image of a 3rd member that contains equal-diameter ring and pinion gears.
Do these custom rearends typically use spiral-bevel ring/pinion? or straight-bevel?
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Tom,
The major dia. is 1.430, the minor is 1.250. The 2:00 R&P can come with a 31 spline spool or a 31 spline Winters Track. This is a special diff that only fits the 2:00. I sell the Extremeliner 308 or 2:00 for $3150 (list $3500) with a spool. The 8121W-200 option is $703.64, list is $804.17. Gear sets are $119.20. I would have to get a quote to delete the tubes and housing ends (guess would be $200 less).
Hope this helps,
j
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For those of you thinking about using a Quickchange, There is one caveat to remember. The Quickchange pinion is (I believe) 2 1/2" lower than a 9" Ford.
I learned the hard way and had to modify my chassis crossmember for the driveshaft to clear when I switched from a 9" to a Winters Q.C.
Other than that, I love the Q.C. and the Winters Tru-Trac that I have in it.
Mine is the standard ( in which the center section is one inch narrower than the extremeliner) and I wish I bought it from Joe rather than Winters (they don't discount to poor bastards like me).
By the time I added Wilwood disc brakes, I am in it around $3200 to $3500 (2005 prices).
I thought about buying the Extemeliner, but it was a grand more at that time and my Visa (sponsor) was tapped out.
The downside is you are stuck with the 4.10 ring and pinion in the standard version, so if I were buying new, I would step up for the Extremeliiner.
Bob Drury
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... this site. Plenty of information. http://www.arrowgear.com/index.html...
Thanks Tom. But I didn't find any images of the pieces needed to house a 1:1 ring & pinion- 3rd member housing and differential case (or its substitute- spool or whatever) that mounts the ring gear. I'm having trouble conjuring up a mental image of a 3rd member that contains equal-diameter ring and pinion gears.
Do these custom rearends typically use spiral-bevel ring/pinion? or straight-bevel?
Jack,
The one I have and ones I have seen are based off of a quickchange rearend's. I have never seen one made for a drop out center section, but that does not mean someone has not. Most all of these units that have been made are really custom units using their own design cases, spools etc. Some have bought Aero gears and installed them into older Quickchange units, but that was before Winters made the Extremeliner Q-C rearend.
"Do these custom rearends typically use spiral-bevel ring/pinion? or straight-bevel?"
I have seen both types of gears used in different manufacturers units. The rearend in my Modified is still intact otherwise I would post some pictures of it for you. If I run across any pictures of one I will post them.
Tom G.
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Tom,
The major dia. is 1.430, the minor is 1.250. The 2:00 R&P can come with a 31 spline spool or a 31 spline Winters Track. This is a special diff that only fits the 2:00. I sell the Extremeliner 308 or 2:00 for $3150 (list $3500) with a spool. The 8121W-200 option is $703.64, list is $804.17. Gear sets are $119.20. I would have to get a quote to delete the tubes and housing ends (guess would be $200 less).
Hope this helps,
j
Joe,
Thanks that helps a lot. As I recall the minor on my shaft is 1.045. So the Winter's Extremeliner shaft has 46% more material in the minor diameter, than a standard 10 spline Q-C gear shaft would have.
I will give you a call next week as I have some more questions for you. What is a good time to call?
Thanks for your help,
Tom G.
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Just a followup on what we have decided to do and are doing for the Stude and my lakester. The 8.75 2.28 ring and pinion is going on the shelf, but not forgotten. I already have a GM 7.5 and 2.28 and 2.14 gears for the lakester and will start with the 2.28's. Also have a Torsen center section that takes 28 spline axles that I'll have to order.
For the Stude pretty much the same will be tried. Buddy (that 'flatcad' guy) donated a GM 7.5 and John Burk basically donated 2.14 gears with his bargain/bargain/bargain basement price :-). Thanks guys, and today Hooley bought a Torsen off of ebay. He has Ford axle tubes that he probably can use. I have 3 ford 9 inch rear-ends and don't want to cut the tubes off of them so will buy aftermarket tubes. He measured the I.D. of the ones he has and it looks like we can cut the tubes off outside the bell on the 7.5's and slide the Ford tubes over them and weld everything up. It this works I'll be posting pictures.
At this point we will probably not try and put the 7.5 in the Stude for Speed Week as we have the transmission setup now for the 2.47 Ford rearend and geared for the speed we'd like to run if possible as a first step. If that works then we would change to the GM 7.5 for maybe a later date and re-gear the transmission.
Joe's Extremeliner is still what we would both like to have at some point,
Sum
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I have donor 9" housings if you need them.
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I have donor 9" housings if you need them.
Thanks, the tubes aren't that much....
(http://www.leadmineproducts.com/servlet/the-Rearend-Housing/Categories)
....I'll talk to you though :-),
Sum
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"Standard"( what ever that means in this case) quick changes use spiral bevel gears for the ring and pinion. That means that the pinion center line is on the centerline of the ring gear but the gear form is of a spiral configuration which is a stronger gear form than a standard bevel gear which will have straight cut gears. The actual input shaft to a quick change can then be ran below the ring gear center line into the lower gear of the quick change set then up to the pinion shaft which again is on the ring gear centerline but now the ring gear is on the other side of the pinion to get the axle rotation in the correct direction. A Ford 9 inch uses a hypoid bevel gear form which has the pinion center line below the center line of the ring gear and this allows for a much stronger gear form as it's root is longer. This type of gear configuration has somewhat more sliding action when it turns. I have never heard of, which certainly doesn't mean that it hasn't been done before, a 9 inch hypoid gear set being made into a quick change configuration. It would certainly seem that you could run the pinion in from the back with the ring gear flipped to the other side and then run an input shaft below the ring gear centerline enough to clear the spool and then have a change gear set up like a Winters but it would require special change gears as the center line distance between the shafts would certainly be different than a Winters. I would think that this configuration would require a lube pump to insure lubrication of the ring and pinion. Or you could run the pinon below the centerline and run the input shaft above the centerline which would put the ring and pinion contact point below the fluid level and put the drive shaft into the case in a fairly high position. Anyone want to do it? probably 20-30 grand for design and another 50 for tooling and you could have one.
Rex
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... Winters made the Extremeliner Q-C rearend...
Any idea why I can't find anything about "Extremeliiner" on Winters' website?
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Go into Winters site and then into catalogues. Pick the Closed Tube Components catalogue and go to pages 16 and 17. The catalogue loads slowly so give it time. Your spelling is probably challenging the system too.
Pete
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In my streamliner I have an inverted dropout 12 bolt and a V-drive mounted 15" behind it . The input shaft back to the Casale V-drive runs through a tube below the spool and next to the ring gear . The tube is welded to the aluminum dropout housing with an o-ring where it comes out the front of the Ford housing . An electric pump supplies oil to the pinion bearings . Would have been simpler to just use a 9" center section but the greater pinion offset would put the shaft 3/4" higher and wouldn't clear the spool . A million possible combination .
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Tom G.,
I am in the shop 9 to 5 EST daily...Monday we will be closed, in the A2 wind tunnel with a pair of APS motorcycles. FUN!!!
I'll have new Winters Catalogs in a week or so.
j
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... Your spelling is probably challenging the system too...
Hmm... had me sctratchin' my head. Oh- now I see the double 'i'! I don't have a spelling problem. I just don't bother wearing reading glasses on these forums- which in combination with poor key-debouncing software (or, probably firmware in the keyboard, these days) results in infrequent typo's like that (unseen by these old eyes).
Anyhow... thanks for pointing me to the appropriate Winters catalog.
I see that a 2:1 ring/pinion is available for the Etremeliner rear, but didn't see a 1:1 ratio. Anybody got any views of the George Parker or Tom Burkland (Hub City?) 1:1 setup? An Internet search didn't turn up anything.
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...I see that a 2:1 ring/pinion is available for the Etremeliner rear, but didn't see a 1:1 ratio. Anybody got any views of the George Parker or Tom Burkland (Hub City?) 1:1 setup? An Internet search didn't turn up anything.
I have a few pictures for Tom's car. The first 2 are the back and the other 2 are the front. Is the 2:1 not tall enough for you? What speeds do you plan on running?
Sum
================== Click on the link under the pictures for larger Pictures ================
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44866;image)
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44866;image (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44866;image)
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44868;image)
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44868;image (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44868;image)
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44870;image)
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44870;image (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44870;image)
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44872;image)
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44872;image (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13504.0;attach=44872;image)
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I see that a 2:1 ring/pinion is available for the Etremeliner rear, but didn't see a 1:1 ratio. Anybody got any views of the George Parker or Tom Burkland (Hub City?) 1:1 setup? An Internet search didn't turn up anything.
Jack,
Did you look at the gear chart for the Extremeliner rearend? It goes down to 1.2-1 ratio with the 2-1 R&P.
Tom G.
http://www.wintersperformance.com/Xtremeliner%20Chart.pdf
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Thanks for the info. No, I'm not looking to use a 1:1 rear (won't go fast enough to worry about pinion speed). I was just curious to see the implementation of a 1:1 ring & pinion, since the pinion gear would need to be the same diameter as the ring gear- seemingly difficult to package.
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For what it's worth, here is the Xtremeliner that we put in the Cat last year.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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From what I've seen with very high HP cars the weakest point of QC rears is the casting breaking where the pinion tries to push away from ring gear . It seems that a girdle with bars pressing on the side bells and cross bolts outside outside the castings above and below the pinion would help .
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Here it is compared to the 9 inch.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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From what I've seen with very high HP cars the weakest point of QC rears is the casting breaking where the pinion tries to push away from ring gear . It seems that a girdle with bars pressing on the side bells and cross bolts outside outside the castings above and below the pinion would help .
Winters corrected that issue years ago with a flanged bearing race for the pinion.
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I have come across 8 sets of new 2.30 to 1 9" Ford gear sets. They are new and coated the guy had them made by a trans. co. He runs one of them in his car. He wants what he has in them $4,400.00 ea. P.M. me and I will put you in touch with him.
Richard 2
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lol
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I just got off of the phone with Mike Feldner of M.F. Performance. HE IS THE MAN PRODUCING THE 2.30 FORD 9" REAR END GEARS AND HAS THEM IN STOCK.
That is the good news.
The bad news is the price ............... $4200. a set.
The reason is because these gears are manufactured by a grinding process as they can not be made be conventional Hobbs gear cutters.
He made twelve sets, and the Blowfish and Speed Demon are running them.
Mike said that he still has SIX sets left. Bob
Mike Feldner (715) 452-3817
I have come across 8 sets of new 2.30 to 1 9" Ford gear sets. They are new and coated the guy had them made by a trans. co. He runs one of them in his car. He wants what he has in them $4,400.00 ea. P.M. me and I will put you in touch with him.
Richard 2
Richard 2,
Is it the same guy as One Run posted? Which reminds me I have to call Joe Timney about the Extremliner.
Tom G.
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No, This Guy had to have 14 sets made to get one. He is just selling what's left over. He's not making them.
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Back to rear end gears, I have been doing more research and may have hit upon some usefull info.
It seems that Ford used a 8.5 ten bolt rear in most 79-81 Ford and Mercury passenger cars and in 80-81 Lincolns.
These are identical to the later 8.8 rear end housings and will accept the 8.8 gears and posi units. See my earlier post #12 for using two short axles.
Why is this so cool? Because most of them came with 2.26 gears and you should be able to install 1998-2002 (I think) explorer posi with 31 spline axles and disc rear brakes for less than 500 bucks.
Here are the rear end tag codes for the 2.26 gears which will be located on the tag on the rear cover and which will also give the ratio and ring gear size (make sure it does not say 7.5. The codes will be:WGX-U, WGY-6, WGY-F, WGY-C.
Bob
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Back to rear end gears, I have been doing more research and may have hit upon some usefull info.
It seems that Ford used a 8.5 ten bolt rear in most 79-81 Ford and Mercury passenger cars and in 80-81 Lincolns.
These are identical to the later 8.8 rear end housings and will accept the 8.8 gears and posi units. See my earlier post #12 for using two short axles.
Why is this so cool? Because most of them came with 2.26 gears and you should be able to install 1998-2002 (I think) explorer posi with 31 spline axles and disc rear brakes for less than 500 bucks.
Here are the rear end tag codes for the 2.26 gears which will be located on the tag on the rear cover and which will also give the ratio and ring gear size (make sure it does not say 7.5. The codes will be:WGX-U, WGY-6, WGY-F, WGY-C.
Bob
Interesting Bob, are you saying that you can use the 2.26 gears out of the 8.5 on a 8.8 carrier in the 8.8 housing or the 8.8 carrier with the 2.26 gears in the 8.5 or either/or? I found this doing a quick search where is sounds like he used a 8.8 carrier and gears in the 8.5 but it is still a little confusing...
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270912 (http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270912)
Looks like you might of found something, thanks. For now I'm going to try the GM 7.5 as I have the axle, torsen and gears. Just need to put the tubes on and get axles. Ordered Marsh wheels the other day since my other ones were for the Datsun rearend and only 4 hole.
We will keep this in mind though and I'd be interested in hearing more if someone pursues this. I also found this link....
http://www.fordification.com/tech/rearends_ford09.htm (http://www.fordification.com/tech/rearends_ford09.htm)
...that shows one or two of those codes not being 2.26 gears but they might be wrong,
Sum
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Sum, I kind of got muddled up in expounding my thoughts.
What I was trying to say was that I believe the 2.26 gears out of the 8.5 should fit in a later 8.8 Mustang or Explorer housing.
The bonus of using the Explorer unit is it has 3" axle tubes, 31 spline axles and most come with a traction lock rear.
It just stands to reason (which means it probably doesn't) that if you can use the 8.8 gears in the 8.5, the reverse should also be true.
A 2.47 8.8 gear came in 83-86 Ford F100 and F150 pickups and some Broncos of the same years.
Hey, maybe that's why the cops coulden't catch O.J. .... He was running Bville gears in his white Bronco, ya' think? Bob
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Sum, I kind of got muddled up in expounding my thoughts.
What I was trying to say was that I believe the 2.26 gears out of the 8.5 should fit in a later 8.8 Mustang or Explorer housing.
The bonus of using the Explorer unit is it has 3" axle tubes, 31 spline axles and most come with a traction lock rear.
It just stands to reason (which means it probably doesn't) that if you can use the 8.8 gears in the 8.5, the reverse should also be true.
A 2.47 8.8 gear came in 83-86 Ford F100 and F150 pickups and some Broncos of the same years.
Hey, maybe that's why the cops coulden't catch O.J. .... He was running Bville gears in his white Bronco, ya' think? Bob
We need someone to try this as there are some benefits for sure.
I'm not sure if you can find a Torsen Traction for that combination and I sure want to try that after seeing Sparky's success with one. They are pretty easy to find for under $150 since they came in some '99--02' Camaro's and Pontiac's. I feel they offer an advantage on the salt over some of the other Posi type rears as they transfer a certain percentage of the drive to the wheel that is trying to spin to the one that isn't.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen)
..... They also come in 28 spline which is somewhat better than the 26 spline options usually found in the GM 7.5. So far the only full spool I've found for the 7.5 is a 26 spline. With your option it is easy to find fairly cheap full spools for the 8.8 if someone wanted to go that route.
So when are you or someone else going to find the parts and try this 8.5/8.8 combo out? It might be a better deal for the Stude than the 7.5 and Hooley has time on that yet as he will run the Ford 9 inch probably one more year. I'd do it but access to old stuff if very limited where I live,
Sum
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If I live through my upcoming visit from Stainless and John Boy, I will pursue this further. Bob
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Can't see any reason to use a spool if there is a Torsen option available. The way it functions is reason enough, but safety is an additional benefit as they are less prone to a sudden loss of traction. Those who have to pedal high power cars mightn't see that as an issue though......
For us with hard rear end it seems to work very well but we are under 400hp so traction isn't a problem.
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Can't see any reason to use a spool if there is a Torsen option available.....
I agree and it looks like they do make one for the 8.8 with 31 splines (also a 28 spline version)...
http://s300909324.e-shop.info/shop/article_409200-0204P/Ford-8.8%22-31T.html?sessid=zUPGEr19Cxo1ocyh9DWmLVzedQ4AorGMDjVBzlqbi5HF4A1cq8WT1mNAOYqYBUIe&shop_param=cid%3D1%26aid%3D409200-0204P%26 (http://s300909324.e-shop.info/shop/article_409200-0204P/Ford-8.8%22-31T.html?sessid=zUPGEr19Cxo1ocyh9DWmLVzedQ4AorGMDjVBzlqbi5HF4A1cq8WT1mNAOYqYBUIe&shop_param=cid%3D1%26aid%3D409200-0204P%26)
So Bob if you find the time please get back with your results. If everything fits I see this being a better option than the GM 7.5 if you don't need the 2.14 gears it has available. I hope to need those gears with the lakester with the smaller tires but with the 28 inch tires on the Stude a 2.26 or 2.28 would work fine for speeds faster than we will probably ever run.
It looks like you will need to run one of the c-clip eliminator options with the 8.8 but that is no big deal to overcome,
Sum
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I great article on different types of differentials can be found at www.4crawler.com/4x4/truetrac.shtml.
I am currently running a Winters Quickchange with a TrueTrac in it which is similar to the Torsen, and may or may not be stronger than the Torson.
Although I have spun it once with the TT, it has saved me at least a dozen times when crossed up in low gear (I know, I know, Ease into it Bob).
The main problems for me are using too low of a first gear, a direct cable to the barrel valve/throttle blades (tunnel ram w/ Enderle hat ...need a bellcrank), a GOB of torque, and old age.
The first two will be remedied before I run it again, I am going to fix the third with Nitro (is there any other way?) and as for the forth issue, I am increasing my dosage of 5 hour Energy drink, doubling up on metamusil and tripling the Ciallis (Doctor recommended). Bob
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"I am going to fix the third with Nitro (is there any other way?) and as for the forth issue, I am increasing my dosage of 5 hour Energy drink, doubling up on metamusil and tripling the Ciallis (Doctor recommended). Bob "
Bob, You don't need a LSR car, you will be running 200 mph without one. :cheers: :cheers:
Richard 2
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Yea, 'cept he will trip over his.... :roll: Little Richard
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Yea, 'cept he will trip over his.... :roll: Little Richard
:-o :-D
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Maybe try 2nd gear . . . and tell the push truck to turn 90º when he gets off you.
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My Redneck traction control:
pg with 1.76/gv., no torque converter, 2.14 gears with torsen
1st FDR 3.76
2nd FDR 2.14
3rd FDR 1.67
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What is the tallest gear that is made for a Dana 44?
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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hi Bob: Mike from MF Performance. Been reading the posts on different diffs being used. By far the Gleason Torson diff is the best but they cost a lot. I have one for the Ford 9" and most would fall over knowing what it is worth. I use a lot of the Eaton Tru-Trac and have quite few in LSR cars. I feel the key is setting the break away torque . The way they come they almost act like a spool. Because of there design the aluminum case units will have wear problems so I use the cast steel units with the 9". Once the alunm. case wears or gets hot they work like an open diff. Will be back home next week and will post more on the 2:30 gears and what we do.
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Mike, welcome aboard. We all look forward to your input and if you haven't already done so, please give us a little incite on your background and the history of your 2.30 gearset design and manufacturing process.
You will find us mostly civil in even our disagreements, but no matter what, we are "all ears" when someone with knowledge speaks.
Bob
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Just a foot note to my above post: See Mikes Feb. 9th post under Introduce Yourself for a little background info.
I hope he will relate more about his work with the likes of Roush Racing and other stories he related to me when I first contacted him. A very interesting history.
Again, Welcome Mike. Bob
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FYI, if you are running a Ford 9", you can get Torque Biasing Differentials (like a Torsen) in 28, 31, & 35 spline from Wavetrac in Aliso Viejo, Ca. They make 8620 Billet steel bodies with their own patented pre-load stuff in the middle. I'm sure a Google search will turn up their phone number if needed.
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Hi All
We run a 8.8 in our RMR with the 8.5 gears. They do fit but not out of the box. I use the 2.47 ratio but had a problem setting them up. I ended up with no pinion shims and it still needed to move out. I set it up in the lathe and ground for a little more shim room. Worked great. You also need to play with the yoke as the 8.5 spline is different. I got the 8.5 yoke which uses the 1310 ujoint and it was fine. The car has made about 20 trips in the 240-250 range with no problems.
We used the pickup 8.8 housing as it has the heavier 3" tubes. We put 9" bearing ends on it with new 31 spline axles and a mini spool. I've used this set up in the Street Roadster and will be running it in the RMR this year trying for 300 with a turbo engine. The 2.26 gears are out there and are cheap. IWE rear ends only in BC have them in stock.
cheers
Ted Allan
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Hi All
We run a 8.8 in our RMR with the 8.5 gears. They do fit but not out of the box. I use the 2.47 ratio but had a problem setting them up. I ended up with no pinion shims and it still needed to move out. I set it up in the lathe and ground for a little more shim room. Worked great. You also need to play with the yoke as the 8.5 spline is different. I got the 8.5 yoke which uses the 1310 ujoint and it was fine. The car has made about 20 trips in the 240-250 range with no problems.
We used the pickup 8.8 housing as it has the heavier 3" tubes. We put 9" bearing ends on it with new 31 spline axles and a mini spool. I've used this set up in the Street Roadster and will be running it in the RMR this year trying for 300 with a turbo engine. The 2.26 gears are out there and are cheap. IWE rear ends only in BC have them in stock.
cheers
Ted Allan
Great, and thanks for posting that. One question, just to make sure.....you used the carrier out of the 8.8 and the 8.5 ring gear fits on it?
Are you going to change to the taller gears for the 300 attempt? If so could you take some pictures of the change to the rear-end and post them?
Thanks and good luck on the 300 mph run,
Sumner
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Sum, I also am a little confused as the 8.8 has a 2.47 that came in 83-86 F-100;F-150 and Bronco. I have one sitting on the shelf. Maybe that's all he could find.
Bob
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I didn't read much past the first post, because I'm wondering why worry about costly custom spools versus welding common open diffs? Which are virtually free. Yes, it's heavier, but the cost difference more than covers the extra power required, or so it seems to me, coming from drag racing. And done correctly, I've had my own welded diffs survive far more than anyone is willing to believe. I had a GM 7.5" survive a 10.21-second pass on drag radials in a full-street-weight car. That's extremely uncommon, even with an automatic transmission, which I was running. I daily-drove that thing for over a year on the welded open diff, at that power level, on those grippy tires.
So, anyone have any evidence I can read, please, about the weight reduction of a proper spool being worth MPH?
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Sum
I used the 8.8 carrier and yes the ring gear fits right on. For our 300 attempt we're going to run the 2.47 gears with the 28" Goodyears we are running now. We couldn't get to the final drive we wanted so I talked to Mike Strausberg at B&J, they now make a overdrive unit for their Big Boy trans. We will be using a 1.50/direct single section with the od. It gives us 4 gears, 1.50, 1.20, 1.00, and .80. What's slick is they have lots of gear ratios for the trans and muliple ratios for the od, they are both air shifted which makes it nice for us guys that have the trans behind us.
ted
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Sorry Bob
I should have read the rest of the post. As far as I could find, the highest ratio available for the 8.8 was 2.73. I did have a set of the 2.26 but they were too high for us with the 28" tire so we went for the 2.47 with the set up we were running in B/GRMR with a BBC. With the new turbo set up and a little lower rpm, we found that being able to keep the wheels/tires and gear combo we already had and spend the extra money for a bulletproof trans was a better way to go.
I did have a question that fits. Is it better to go with an od or the hight gear (if available) and taller tires. I'm sure turning the pinion faster with the od is robbing power but is it that much.
ted
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Ted, that question is one of the great mysteries in life. If you still have the 2.26 gear set and want to sell them, I would be a player, but would be glad to give Hooley or Sum the first crack at them.
Thanks for adding to this post and Good Luck for this year on the salt.
Bob
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I don't have the gears anymore, but I do know where they are. I call them tomorrow and check. They were used gears but looked great and I'm pretty sure they were 150.00 I'll also check to see if they have the right yoke to go with them.
ted
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Overdue,
It isn't the weight reduction that we are after. The 10 bolt has less horse power loss than other rear ends such as 9" Ford.
The extreme high ratio makes the MPH with less RPM. Even though the little tires seem like they should lose traction there is a lot of pressure on the small foot print of the tire. At some point during the pass 100% of the Horse Power goes through every part of the drive train. But it isn't shocked like drag racing
With my ass in the drivers seat I want as much of a safety edge as I can have. At high speed the welded spiders would lock the rear wheels together but did any of the welded parts crack or fatigue
when they cooled? I know it would work but I am not willing to take the chance. I also drag race and had to forget most of it to Land Speed Race. The weight thing was hard for me to grasp.
Good Luck,
Hooley
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N49racer,
How much House Power are you running?
Richard 2
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Ted, that question is one of the great mysteries in life. If you still have the 2.26 gear set and want to sell them, I would be a player, but would be glad to give Hooley or Sum the first crack at them.
Thanks for adding to this post and Good Luck for this year on the salt.
Bob
Hey this approach was yours so if you want that set and they are available take them. Let me know if you don't as then I'll buy them. We are all set gear wise to go back next year (at least to SW) with the Ford 9 inch so don't need something right this second but if you take them let me know so I can start looking for a set as I think this is a good way to go for a high HP car over the GM 7.5 if you don't need the 2.14 gears.
....I did have a question that fits. Is it better to go with an od or the hight gear (if available) and taller tires....ted
If you could run the transmission 1:1 instead of the .8 overdrive that would help as in overdrive you are running through 2 more sets of gears in the transmission (down to the countershaft and back up again). That is the situation we are in with our overdrive G-Force 101. Also if it was me I'd try and run the taller tires and cut the overdrive down from the 20% drop going into it to less if possible.
https://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_g101a.asp (https://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_g101a.asp)
On that note G-Force is selling the G101-A from time to time on e-bay for about $3100 and that includes any gear set you want (1st, 2nd, 3rd --or 3rd as an overdrive 4th) and it comes with a Vertical Gate shifter that I think will be pretty easy to run linkage to in a rear engine car as it is just back and forth with no "H" pattern. The transmission is rated to 1000 HP on pavement so more on the salt. I've been able to find the counter-shaft drive gears and the 1st, 2nd, 3rd gears in sets for $50 to $100 and have sources if anyone needs them. If someone is looking for one of these I'd recommend the "A" that has a full cuff between the main shaft and counter-shaft. It makes it stronger than the old Tex 101's or earlier G-Force 101's. I've learned a fair amount about these transmissions and would share it with anyone looking for one. There are some things to consider with it comes to the different models past and present and things like having a full splined counter-shaft vs. one with an integral first gear.
Here is a link to the 101 gear ratios available....
https://www.gforcetransmissions.com/pdfs/G101_ratio.pdf (https://www.gforcetransmissions.com/pdfs/G101_ratio.pdf)
We've run this transmission with no problems and usually shift it without the clutch and in fact lost the clutch 2 years and Hooley did all the shifting without it. I bought the same transmission for my lakester,
Sum
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Hooley,
Thanks.
Why would you worry about weld failure if it was done correctly? Or the welding hurting the gears / carrier?
My own was mig welded, without even pre-heating in an oven, nor slow-cooling in sand,
but even stick-welding with 7018 or even 6011 rod will work. When a 6000 pound truck with a 572, a SM465, and an NP205 on 44s doesn't break a welded diff on a 5500-RPM clutch dump, you know 6011 works just fine.
Abused diffs are abused diffs, whether 500 miles from help in desert off-roading, or in a safe environ like B'ville.
If you had a bad experience with a welded diff, then the welding was done poorly.
The best source of the most good info about welding diffs is in Pirate4x4.com
If you still insist on a spool, that's your right, and I'll argue no more. I just see no point in spending on things that give no return on investment.
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Sum, I would have no need for them at this time... its one of those "future projects" for me. I am going to throw the ball back in your court and if you or anyone else that could use them in the near future doesn't buy them, I will. Bob
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Sum, I would have no need for them at this time... its one of those "future projects" for me. I am going to throw the ball back in your court and if you or anyone else that could use them in the near future doesn't buy them, I will. Bob
OK, thanks. I sent Ted a PM about them,
Sum
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Thanks Overdue,
Your right about the proper welds for such an application. The price of a spool was out of the question. We did find a Torsen for a buck 25 on e-bay.
I put the 2:16 gears on the other day. Later on I will cut the housing to put the Ford bearings and axels on. A friend that is planning a car for Bonneville called Moiser and found out they have a kit to do such
a swap. If push came to shove we would weld up the spiders. We are shooting for 1,4000 to 1,600 HP from this motor and try to element anything that could cause problems. I know we can't element all risks
but would like to minimize them as much as we can.
We're having a ball, hope you are too.
Hooley
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Thanks Overdue,
Your right about the proper welds for such an application. The price of a spool was out of the question. We did find a Torsen for a buck 25 on e-bay.
I put the 2:16 gears on the other day. Later on I will cut the housing to put the Ford bearings and axels on. A friend that is planning a car for Bonneville called Moiser and found out they have a kit to do such
a swap. If push came to shove we would weld up the spiders. We are shooting for 1,4000 to 1,600 HP from this motor and try to element anything that could cause problems. I know we can't element all risks
but would like to minimize them as much as we can.
We're having a ball, hope you are too.
Hooley
Hey Hooley, Glad you are having fun. I did some quick calculations, are you going north of 300 mph? Or way north.
Good Luck Richard 2
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Hi Bob: Mike from MF Performance here. I just put a post on Micro-Blue coatings on line for all to read. When I talked to you on the phone I told you that the Blow Fish used 2:30 gears from us and that the Speed Demon used Micro-Blue coated parts in there driveline system. I know they use a quickchange not a 9". Later this week I will post the story on how the 2:30 gears came to be. I have worked with Craig from Micro-Blue for years and this coating is only a small part of a larger story on coatings,oils, and metal treatments. Take care Mike
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Sorry guys, I was in the middle of heading to AZ for a holiday. I called about the gears today but havn't got a call back yet. I all them tomorrow again. I know they have them. Who's crazy enoughto want 2.26 gears right?
ted
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Currently we run 800 @ sea level. With the new engine we'll start at around 1500 and go up as required.
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Hi Richard 2,
We are geared this year for 275 to 280 mph. If all works as planned we will put the 2:16 gear is and see what happens.
Are you headed to Speed Week?
Hooley
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Hey Hooley
What tire size will you be running with the 2.16s. We'll run the 28" goodyears with the od, we calc'd we could'nt make it with 30" tires and 2.26 if we allow 2-3% slip
ted
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I found this site, www.fordification.com/tech/rearends it's great info on all the Ford Diffs.
Cheers
Ted
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I did make a mistake. The ratio is 2:14 and not 2:16. May be Sum will jump in with the rpm's vs speed chart he was telling me about on the phone
this afternoon. Our tires are the Good Year 28"
Hooley
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http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/calculators/mphCalculator.htm
Hooley, Yes we will be at Speed Week with Bells on. Here is a MPH Calculator Off Curries web Site, That works good.
Richard 2
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Plug in the numbers.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/procrastination/rear.html
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Thanks for those links. Both work well. The results fall right it our plans if, if, if,--. I know "Best layed plans of mice and men. "
Hooley
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Hi to all: How the 2:30 gears came to be. Back in 2009 I was part of a team and during speedweeks on the salt we started to talk about what and how to go faster next year. John's car has a 9" and changing to a quickchange would not be the answer. We wanted to stay with a 1 to 1 final ratio in the trans. and our engine builder Bob Joehnck started talking about 2:30 gears from the 60's. I started looking into this and found like most incomplete information. During the PRI show I met with people from two different gear mfg. people I know and have done work with in the past. Both agreed to check into this and would get back to me. Both sent back the same results, it would be hard if not impossible to do using standard gear methods, I still have all the data and the nice part was neither charged me for their work. I think that if it had been done in the 60's a different case was also made with a different pinion surport was used. While working on a different project for Roush Racing and over dinner the VP of racing and a person from a different gear mfg. started asking me about what I was doing out on the salt. I brought up the 2:30 gear problem and Mark from the gear mfg. said he felt it could be done. It would done in 3 steps with having a cost to each step. After talking to John about it, he gave me the ok to go ahead and he would pay the cost. Step 1: enter the data into a computer program to see if a different way could be found to do it. Most of what I know is proprietary because if affects other gears being made at that time and being made now. By using tooth counts from different gears and CNC grinding it could be done. Step 2: Find the material and blanks to do this. Luck was with us because gears using these numbers where being made and so a number of how many would come into play. The least amount was 10 with 12 set aside because 2 might be used up in the grinding process. I could have had 100 or 1,000 made but cost would not have been that much less and at the time did not know how many could be sold. Now why is this even done? NASCAR had made a gear rule but the rule had loop hole in it. An example would be, teams could use a gear between 3:25 and 3:33. If you look in most books these at this time where standard production gears case closed. Now because of computers and CNC machining the door is open, so 3:27, 3:29 and 3:31 came into play at a high cost. We have gears now that most people don't even know about. Step 3 Set up a time line to get the gears done, because of the low number we had to wait our turn and it took some time. By June they where done, QC complete, run-in complete and we had 12 sets to our name. John paid the final bill and they were sent to my shop. Now to make it clear, John owns these gears, I am selling them for him. John is a true racer and he took the total bill and divided it by 12 to come up with the cost. I am not making a dime on them and John will break even on these gears if we sell all of them. John and I have been friends for years and I was happy just to get it done for him. I know some people say they cost to much , well then see if you can do it cheaper. These gears are made from the best material and by one of the best gear mgf. in the world. The gears are Rem polished, EDM and ready to go. Cost is 4,000:00 and 4,400:00 Micro-blue coated. Any Questions contact me. Thanks Mike MF Performance LLC
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In 1980 and 1981 some Dodge 8.25" rears came with 2.24:1 ring and pinions .
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I've got a couple of 9" 2.05 sets in the works as we speak.
According to the gear cutter all is well and I'll have pics and details soon.
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I did make a mistake. The ratio is 2:14 and not 2:16. May be Sum will jump in with the rpm's vs speed chart he was telling me about on the phone
this afternoon. Our tires are the Good Year 28" ...Hooley
Well a little late on this and might not be of a lot of interest but an hour till bed-time so.... :-).
I'd like to share the versatility of running a transmission like G-Force's 101 and using one of the spreadsheets on my site in conjunction with it.
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-Hooley/270%20mph%20gears-2.47-Hooley.jpg)
Above is one part of the spreadsheet I use. To the right under the double red arrows is a table of the different ratios available for the 101 (top right) for the drive gears (the gears that drive the countershaft off the input end of the main shaft--Input Drive & Cluster Drive). Also shown there to the left of the Input Cluster drive gears are the ratios for 1st, 2nd and 3rd (which can also be an overdrive 4th). Down to the right in that area are the Drive Sets we have and the 1-2-3 gear sets we have bought used for our two 101's (Stude & Lakester) that we can choose from.
Underneath the double purple arrows is where you input the gears you are using for the Input/Cluster and 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Those inputs will then automatically be posted to the left as 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears. So you input the gears, rearend ratio and the tire diameter and the spreadsheet does the rest for you. The area between the 2 middle blue lines gives you a quick idea of speed in gears and you can input any rpm's you want there for your combination.
The top left arrow shows that we have the present Ford 2.47 rear selected and that at 7000 in the overdrive 4th (yellow arrow) the car should be running 270 mph. These are the gears we are going back with for Speed Week but we will have the other gear sets with us. With the transmission out of the car you can change any of the gears in less than an hour. Getting it out of the Stude is not a fun job. I hope to make that much easier with the lakester.
The quick speed in gears at different rpms by the 2 blue arrows is nice but we need to look further down the chart for the telling information and this is something that most of the speed calculators don't give you...
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-Hooley/270%20mph%20gears-2.47-Hooley-2%20down%20chart.jpg)
Above we can pick any rpm we want for shift points and see the rpm there and the drop in rpm during the shift and the new rpm in the next gear after the shift. This can help to make sure you stay where you want in your torque/HP curve if you have that info.
Above we will shift at around 7000 for this example. 135 is 6982 rpm in 1st. We loose 2155 on the shift and end up at 4827 in 2nd. In second we would be shifting at 195 and end up at 5827 in the 1:1 3rd. The final shift would be at 230 and we now only loose 925 rpm with the .865 overdrive 4th dropping to 5947. Further down the sheet we would see that 7000 is about 270 mph, our immediate goal.
If that works then we could re-gear the transmission, staying with the 2.47 rear...
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-Hooley/280%20mph%20gears-2.47-Hooley.jpg)
...with the gears we have on hand ending up with a .829 overdrive 4th where 7000 is 282 mph and 290 would be 7250. Notice we left the cluster drive gears as they were and only changed the 4th gear set.
The better plan though would be to build the 2.26 rearend we have talked about in this thread.
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-Hooley/280%20mph%20gears-2.26-Hooley.jpg)
With it in the car we could again change the gears in the 101 from the ones we have and end up with a better 4th overdrive of .90 which would only give us a 10% rpm drop between 3rd and 4th instead of the 17% we had with the 2.47 reargears. A 700 rpm drop on the shift to 6300 rpm. Now we have changed the 4th gear set and also the Input/Cluster Drive gears.
The G-force 101 is a great fairly low budget transmission for the salt and since it was used by NASCAR and now isn't finding barely used gear sets right now is a pretty easy and inexpensive deal compared to other transmissions out there and the spreadsheet makes it very quick and easy to do 'what-if' scenarios for different combinations of drive gears and gear sets along with rear gear ratios and tire sizes.
One last one.... the dream situation :-)
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-Hooley/300%20mph%20gears-2.26-Hooley.jpg)
...changing 4th and the input/cluster gears. We have the gears for all of the above situations and more on hand. They cost anywhere from $50 to $100 per set used but hard to tell they were used.
In the lakester I'll run a combination for the 3 mile course, working on gearing for 175 at the 2 1/4 that hopefully will get the car qualified for the long course and then change to long course gears,
Sum
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marker
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Hi to all LSR people. I would like to inform all racers that I have just 4 sets of new 2:30 Ford 9" gears left. Once they are gone no more will be made, at least not by me. If people have any questions about them feel free to call me. I can be reached at 715-558-2421 , leave a message if I don't pick up and I'll call back. Thanks Mike
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Ted, We would like to get up to date on this 8.5 2.26 gears to 8.8 carrier marriage!!
Sum and I have several questions.
We would like to run the 3" 8.8 axle tubes so we can get to run the Eaton TrackLoc--I read what you have to do to the Pinion shaft to get a "good pattern on the ring gear & pinion we will have to put 9" outers on the housing to get rid of the c-clips---what are we missing we love coaching.
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:-D Good news guys! Just got off the phone with Eaton's TrueTrac tech service guy.
Eaton makes a one size--- fits all ratios--- carrier available for 28 31 or 33 splines--the 33 splines unit was made for High HP applications like Pro Touring---it is a more robust unit specifically for aggressive applications like tight road course tracks with high horsepower . Did not check on pricing.
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Does anyone know how to get in touch with Ted by phone---he may be on a walkabout thanks
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Talked to a seemingly very knowledgeable salvage yard guy and according to his books our best bet is a 79 Full size Ford LTD or Mercury Grand Marquis with a G in the door jam "code plate" does not appear to be eng specific according to him
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Code: WGY-D
Lincoln Mark Series 80-81
Ford Pass. 79-81
Lincoln & Town Car 80-81
Mercury 79-81
2.26 8.5 NL 28
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Code: WGY-F
Ford Pass., Mercury 81
2.26 8.5 L 28
8.5 with 2.26 gears from here down the page a ways...
http://www.fordification.com/tech/rearends_ford09.htm
Sumner
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Thanks Sum. A little confusing about which housing they fit. I presume the 8.5, 9 and 9 3/8 all fit the "9" housing and are basically called 9"? I know the 9" and 9 3/8 fit. Guess I never heard of 8.5 and some of the other RG diameters. I know my 65, 69 and 69 1/2 Boss Mustangs all had what I would call a 9".
Ron
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Thanks Sum. A little confusing about which housing they fit. I presume the 8.5, 9 and 9 3/8 all fit the "9" housing and are basically called 9"? I know the 9" and 9 3/8 fit. Guess I never heard of 8.5 and some of the other RG diameters. I know my 65, 69 and 69 1/2 Boss Mustangs all had what I would call a 9".
Ron
They fit the 8.8 but you have to work over the pinion to get it to the proper depth for the ring gear. I got a set of the gears but we haven't done the works but Ted has. Here is a review of posts earlier in the thread some time back...
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Hi All, We run a 8.8 in our RMR with the 8.5 gears. They do fit but not out of the box. I use the 2.47 ratio but had a problem setting them up. I ended up with no pinion shims and it still needed to move out. I set it up in the lathe and ground for a little more shim room. Worked great. You also need to play with the yoke as the 8.5 spline is different. I got the 8.5 yoke which uses the 1310 ujoint and it was fine. The car has made about 20 trips in the 240-250 range with no problems.
We used the pickup 8.8 housing as it has the heavier 3" tubes. We put 9" bearing ends on it with new 31 spline axles and a mini spool. I've used this set up in the Street Roadster and will be running it in the RMR this year trying for 300 with a turbo engine. The 2.26 gears are out there and are cheap. IWE rear ends only in BC have them in stock.
Cheers …. Ted Allan
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Great, and thanks for posting that. One question, just to make sure.....you used the carrier out of the 8.8 and the 8.5 ring gear fits on it?
Are you going to change to the taller gears for the 300 attempt? If so could you take some pictures of the change to the rear-end and post them?
Thanks and good luck on the 300 mph run, ….Sumner
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Sum, I used the 8.8 carrier and yes the ring gear fits right on. For our 300 attempt we're going to run the 2.47 gears with the 28" Goodyears we are running now. We couldn't get to the final drive we wanted so I talked to Mike Strausberg at B&J, they now make a overdrive unit for their Big Boy trans. We will be using a 1.50/direct single section with the od. It gives us 4 gears, 1.50, 1.20, 1.00, and .80. What's slick is they have lots of gear ratios for the trans and muliple ratios for the od, they are both air shifted which makes it nice for us guys that have the trans behind us.
ted
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Sum, I also am a little confused as the 8.8 has a 2.47 that came in 83-86 F-100;F-150 and Bronco. I have one sitting on the shelf. Maybe that's all he could find. Bob
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Sorry Bob, I should have read the rest of the post. As far as I could find, the highest ratio available for the 8.8 was 2.73. I did have a set of the 2.26 but they were too high for us with the 28" tire so we went for the 2.47 with the set up we were running in B/GRMR with a BBC. With the new turbo set up and a little lower rpm, we found that being able to keep the wheels/tires and gear combo we already had and spend the extra money for a bulletproof trans was a better way to go.
ted
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Hope that helps,
Sumner
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I W E has a 2.47 8.5 set left
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S.I.D also has a set of 2.47's.
Sid :-D
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Talked to Ted last night and was really fired up because I had found a set of gears---we they go them pulled this morning and just called me the pinion is chipped---how in the world can something that big get chipped? We back to the phones and internet maybe I can still find one.
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I've run plenty of chipped gears in cars over the years Sparky. If it's not too bad & not cracked just clean it up with a die grinder stone & run it.
Sid.
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I'd sure be tempted to try it as long as the chip isn't where the wear pattern falls. Just clean it up so there aren't any stress risers.
Pete.
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:?
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It is a little ugly. The picture shows the wrong side of the tooth. A quick magnaflux would be useful before a guy made a decision to try saving it.
Pete
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Maybe at the very least I can use it to learn just how the best way to modify the housing or pinion to set one up when I find a good one.
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That's a big chunk there Sparky, a little beyond a clean up for a race gear in my opinion. It must have bitten down on a piece of bearing cage or something.
Sid.
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Sparky, with that one you would have to rename Mz Liberty - Mz Snaggletooth! :-D
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ROTFLMAO!!
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Sum,
Not trying to derail your thead, but has anyone ever thought about having a lower numerical gear for the 9" Ford made? Or is a 2.47 the lowest numerical that can be made?
Tom G.
I guess someone somewhere made taller gears for the Ford 9 inch but I could never find any for sale. I heard they had some for NASCAR at one time but no idea on the ratio and there again I did a lot of calling and never found any. One guy was advertising them 4-5 years back but when I called he said the ratio in the add was a mistake.
I have a feeling having them made would require a number of sets and be quite expensive. I'd think having spools made for this GM 8 3/4 in some kind of quantity would be a lot less expensive. I talked to Steve today and the one he has made is setup for 35 spline axles. So with those axles and ford tubes of the proper length and the spool you would be ready to go.
Bob I can't see the advantage of the smaller Ford since the 2.47 gears are available for the 9 inch (what we have been using).
So far I guess no one wants to add their name to the list of "I'd like a spool maybe" so I guess a quantity deal isn't going to happen. Possibly since Steve has a prototype he would be willing to either make more or for a development fee let some manufacture takes his and duplicate it? He told me that he would work with us, but not sure if he really wants to go into production or not? Steve??
Sum
Mike @ MF Performance made several sets of a 28 spline ford 9" 2.30 gear sets out of 9310. I think he wants about 4K for a ring and pinion set. His # is 715-462-3817
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We are not there yet but I have 2.28 10-12 which isCaddy 8 7/8 and 2.14 with 28" splines I was If I speed that much I want to go with so 2.00s for a 12 bolt or 1.50 Industrial gears
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Our Winters Xtremeliner has a 2.00 R&P.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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We started taking the Ford 8.8 apart and comparing it to a bunch of GM stuff I had ---the ring gear bolt pattern is the same as the old GM 8.5 10 bolt---the ring gear and pinion are very similar to the old Caddy 10-12 which had the same 12 ring gear bolts and 8 7/8 diameter as the Chevy 12 bolt ---it has the same pinion splines as the caddy. My next research is to see if I can interchange the carriers between the Caddy and the Chevy.
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That's the way Sparky, think like a hot rodder. :cheers:
Sid.
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So..I haven't read each and every post in this thread and apologies if I am late to the game but, is someone in need of an 8.8 2.47 ford gear set? I have one and I am certain I wont be needing it. I will give it a very close look take some pics and magna flux if necessary. Let me know!