Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Sumner on January 04, 2014, 11:18:42 AM
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Since I've started collecting new parts and doing some work on the lakester with hopes of trying to finally get it on the salt I thought I'd post some of what I'm doing on here. I'll post most of the updates with lots more pictures on my site as there will be quite a bit of detail as in the past.
As I add to the build there I'll post new links to what I'm doing there along with some info and pictures here. One can decide if what I post here is enough or if they want more they can go to Ruth's and my site.
As some of you know I've decided to abandon the motorcycle engine approach and replace it with a car engine approach. This means removing a lot from the car that has been made and putting it off to the side. In the hopes of actually getting the car on the salt I'm going with a solid rearend but will keep the suspension up front. I'm going to have to lengthen the car about 2 1/2 feet for the new power-train.
Over the next week or so I'll try and post about the components I've acquired for the power-train but will start now with ....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/13--11-15-13%20Atlas%202900-6.jpg)
... the 2.9 liter GM Atlas motor that will be used in the car. There is more info...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/13--11-15-13%20Atlas%202900-9.jpg)
.... and pictures of the motor and its big brother/sister the Atlas 4200 which has set current records in cars on the salt here....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/construction%20page-134.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/construction%20page-134.html)
Please feel free to ask any questions or whatever on the build at any time,
Sum
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This is great news Sum. We'll all be looking forward to your updates. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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All right!!!!!!!!
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Very nice, looking forward to following the build :cheers: Dean
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Life got in the way for a bit there, we can all understand that. Atlas,big name...Might put you on the map... :cheers:
So, hard rear end....car engine, f/gl?
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F/BGL
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Sumner, I can't wait to see the progress updates! :cheers:
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OK Sum... I was hoping to try to take your J/GL...BGL... or whatever J you were going to run... that would have been fun racing for both of us :-)
I guess those fast passes in the Stude made you look at the 250 MPH fish... faster is funner
Looking forward to the build and watching you race... let me know if you need crew when the time comes. :cheers:
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OK Sum... I was hoping to try to take your J/GL...BGL... or whatever J you were going to run... that would have been fun racing for both of us :-)..
Yep it would of been, but I chickened out as the competition was too tough 8-), of course the F competition right now is also very good. You could always start on an F motor though and join us :-D.
....I guess those fast passes in the Stude made you look at the 250 MPH fish... faster is funner....
I did rather enjoy that and now that I have done it and didn't chicken out as I was afraid I might I'd like to see what I could do 2 years or so from now when I'd hope to have a good F motor to go in the car if it does OK with a low HP motor.
..... let me know if you need crew when the time comes. :cheers:
That might be a possibility, I couldn't do better than you,
Sum
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Isn't the F/BGL record presently held by a machine with "Bullet" in the name? (a Mr. Cosgrove)?
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Isn't the F/BGL record presently held by a machine with "Bullet" in the name? (a Mr. Cosgrove)?
It is, "Das Bullet".
When my mom was alive she would ask me how the 'bullet car' was coming along so I started useing the name back in 2004/05 out of respect for her ....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bvillecarindexpage.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bvillecarindexpage.html)
.... as I started the build and will keep it. Probably room for more than one 'bullet' on the salt :-) 8-). Not sure how long they have used the name,
Sum
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This is going to be fun.
I think you should paint it orange.
John
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Sumner, I am glad to see you working on the lakester again. It was when we went to World Finals in 07 that we saw it in your shop.
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This is going to be fun.
I think you should paint it orange.
John
Yea, I have some of Hooley's paint here :-),
Sum
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Sumner, I am glad to see you working on the lakester again. It was when we went to World Finals in 07 that we saw it in your shop.
Are you going forward with the Atlas 4200 in the pickup truck? Hope so, I'm sure it will be a great looking install,
Sum
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You could always start on an F motor though and join us :-D.
Stainless has the F Buick motor from the Liner :-o
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You could always start on an F motor though and join us :-D.
Stainless has the F Buick motor from the Liner :-o
I think you ought to jump on putting that in the lakester. Probably going to be hard to connect a chain to it :-), but maybe it is time for a new rearend in the car :-),
Sum
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Sumner, I am glad to see you working on the lakester again. It was when we went to World Finals in 07 that we saw it in your shop.
Are you going forward with the Atlas 4200 in the pickup truck? Hope so, I'm sure it will be a great looking install,
Sum
Did you see Erics truck with that mill on the salt last year?
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You could always start on an F motor though and join us :-D.
Stainless has the F Buick motor from the Liner :-o
I think you ought to jump on putting that in the lakester. Probably going to be hard to connect a chain to it :-), but maybe it is time for a new rearend in the car :-),
Sum
It would stick out everywhere... have enough issues with big bike motors... although it might fit better than the Keith Black
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Sumner, I am glad to see you working on the lakester again. It was when we went to World Finals in 07 that we saw it in your shop.
Are you going forward with the Atlas 4200 in the pickup truck? Hope so, I'm sure it will be a great looking install,
Sum
Did you see Erics truck with that mill on the salt last year?
I didn't, seems I never see much when there with a car. There were at least 2 early 50's GMC pickups there with the 4200 in them...
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff268/nexxussian/Speedweek%202013/Reno/IMG_0286_zps5211b227.jpg)
http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/viewforum.php?f=10 (http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/viewforum.php?f=10)
... one running with a turbo (Marc's, right above) and Erick's which I think ...
http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=939 (http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=939)
..... is na. I got my bellhousing adapter from Marc this fall,
Sum
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(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13491.0;attach=44622;image)
....It would stick out everywhere...
Who would care :-o :-o, of course you might have so many people gawking at it you couldn't run 8-),
Sum
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Yup, that's it. He races a Berkley with an Alfa engine I believe most years on the salt. He had it at the Inliners BBQ at the KOA.
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Yup, that's it. He races a Berkley with an Alfa engine I believe most years on the salt. He had it at the Inliners BBQ at the KOA.
You talking about Eric or Marc? Marc is there with the BLACK OPEL.....
(http://www.inliners.org/race/black_opel/black_opel.jpg)
http://www.inliners.org/race/black_opel/black_opel.html (http://www.inliners.org/race/black_opel/black_opel.html)
... which has the current E/GMS record at 208+ mph with the Atlas 4200 6 cylinder. I'm not familiar with the Berkley,
Sum
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Is the VVT (exhaust) usually eliminated for LSR use of the Atlas/Vortec engines?
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Is the VVT (exhaust) usually eliminated for LSR use of the Atlas/Vortec engines?
Good question that I don't really have an answer for. I think some are locking it and some aren't. Not sure what I'll do when I try and build a better/higher HP motor. Reading some on MS3-Pro (MegaSquirt) it sounds like it can also control it if needed.
The whole thing is pretty new to me, but I thought the main purpose was to improve low-end so wonder if there is much to be gained with trying to control it for that, but I just don't know enough at this point to have an intelligent conversation about it.
Here is a thread on the 4200 board you might be interested in....
http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=804 (http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=804)
Sum
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I've done a little more work on the drive-train which has to be finalized to see how much I need to lengthen the car.
I needed an engine stand to store the 2900 on when it isn't in the car and wanted one that I could also use to put the motor into position in the car while building motor and transmission mounts. That meant the stand would have to be low to the ground as the bottom of the engine will sit on the bottom of the car about 6 inches off the ground.
I started..
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-engine%20stand-5.jpg)
..with a low platform under the pan and ...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-engine%20stand-8.jpg)
...then made side mounts for....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-engine%20stand-9.jpg)
..each side at the front...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-engine%20stand-11.jpg)
...and tied them together. The motor sits at 3 degrees down on the stand that same angle that it will sit at in the car.
To position the engine in the car I just need to block the the engine up off the ....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/frame-rear-26.jpg)
... build table at the desired height. I made sure that the stand would not be in the way of where the final engine mounts will bolt to the engine.
As usual there are more pictures and a better description here.....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/construction%20page-135.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/construction%20page-135.html)
When the motor isn't in the car it can set low on the shop floor on the stand or...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/valve%20train-1.jpg)
...raised up to a better working height by placing the stand on something higher like above. I'll still move the engine to a normal engine stand when I need to work on the lower end,
Sum
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It looks to me like your trailering requirements are evolving plus I really do want to see how you're going to use that rear sprocket now! :evil: :evil: :-D
Pete
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It looks to me like your trailering requirements are evolving plus I really do want to see how you're going to use that rear sprocket now! :evil: :evil: :-D
Pete
The....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/r-springshock-35.jpg)
.... rear sprocket, rear-end and suspension will soon be history without ever having any history :cry:.
Still hoping to use my car hauler trailer with modifications as necessary as the overall length of the car will now be about 25 feet and the trailer bed is 18' :-o
Sum
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No, Eric is Nexussion here, a red convert.
Yup, that's it. He races a Berkley with an Alfa engine I believe most years on the salt. He had it at the Inliners BBQ at the KOA.
You talking about Eric or Marc? Marc is there with the BLACK OPEL.....
(http://www.inliners.org/race/black_opel/black_opel.jpg)
http://www.inliners.org/race/black_opel/black_opel.html (http://www.inliners.org/race/black_opel/black_opel.html)
... which has the current E/GMS record at 208+ mph with the Atlas 4200 6 cylinder. I'm not familiar with the Berkley,
Sum
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No, Eric is Nexussion here, a red convert....
Well, I'm totally confused now. One is that I've been using two spellings for the same guy, Eric and Erick, sorry about that. On the 4200 forum....
http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/
.... there is an Erick that goes by Nexxussian ....
http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=939 (http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=939)
... and has a build there with a 4200 in a GMC, the one I pictured above. The truck might actually be more his dad's though, not sure about that and probably has the 'red convert' you are talking about.
So I think we are talking about the same person :-). I do know there is someone out there that could clear this up.............Erick????
Sum
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Since I am running a G-Force 101A transmission behind the 4 cylinder Atlas motor I needed an adapter between the block and the transmission. I considered making one but decided age wise I'm running low on time and need to buy some things for the car and not try and make them all.
So I bought an adapter plate ....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-04-14%20Adapter-1.jpg)
.... from Marc in Canada who is on the salt with the Black Opel. He sells them mainly to people with Atlas 4200 motors (motor was in the TrailBlazer) that want to run GM transmissions behind the motor in other vehicles. One thing common to the back of the block on the Atlas motors and other GM motors is that the locating dowels for the bellhousing are in the same place in relation to the center of the crank and transmission input shaft. This does simplify the task if you want to make your own and I explain how on the following page on the site about the adapter plate.......
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/construction%20page-136.html
... and you can find more pictures and info there as always.
There was a small problem in using Marc's adapter on the 2900 engine and it would also hold true for the 5 cylinder motor. That is...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-04-14%20Adapter-2.jpg)
... they have a balance shaft on each side of the motor where the 6 cylinder 4200 has none. The balance shafts have covers on them at the back of the block and the cover on the left side was contacting the adapter....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-04-14%20Adapter-4.jpg)
... at the cover and the two bolts as shown above. The bolts were exchanged ...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-04-14%20Adapter-5.jpg)
..... for allen head screws and that helped a lot.
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-04-14%20Adapter-7.jpg)
Some time in the mill and boring into the adapter slightly from the block side where the lower screw was, took care of it all. The mill work could of been done with a grinder also
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-04-14%20Adapter-12.jpg)
...So now that the adapter is clearanced and mounted I could move onto the SFI bellhousing and mounting it. That is next.
More info on the above here....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/construction%20page-136.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/construction%20page-136.html)
I sent Marc a pattern of the cutout and future adapters for the 4 and 5 cylinder engines should be pre-clearanced. Marc's adapter is a precision made piece that I highly recommend getting and the price is very reasonable. I have a link to his site on the build page above,
Sum
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For 200 bucks that plate is a steal. Pardon the pun.
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For 200 bucks that plate is a steal. Pardon the pun.
Yep, one would be crazy to not get one. Especially since there are so many other time consuming things to do to get one of these cars done.
I actually have a second and might later pull the SBC out of my pickup and put in a 4 with a turbo on it. Since the pickup is sectioned and tight in the engine compartment now trying to get the 6 in would be a problem. A 4 with a turbo and 350 to 400 HP would be plenty good for the truck.
If anyone is interested on the 4200 board one of the members there did a nice group of drawings of a 4200 6 and a SBC superimposed on each other that gives you a good idea of the differences in height, width and length,
Sum
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After getting the adapter plate mounted on the back of the block the next step was mounting the bellhousing to it. The adapter had threaded holes for the bellhousing to attach to but the holes in some places run into the block or part of the block so you can't use longer bolts in them. At first I cut...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-Bellhousing-1.jpg)
...the heads off of some grade 8 bolts to make studs out of them but didn't really like that. So after that...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-Bellhousing-8.jpg)
...I found that I could run a tap through the threaded part of the adapter and it would clearance the block with threads like above for a couple of the locations.
A couple other places where there was solid block behind the holes I drilled into the block a ways with a slightly oversize bit so that bolts would just continue past the adapter a slight ways and not hit the block.
One hole....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-Bellhousing-13.jpg)
that was too close to the stud for the starter to drill oversize I drilled undersize to 5/16 and ....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-Bellhousing-14.jpg)
.... ran a tap into it so the bolt would go through the adapter and into the threads and one ....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-Bellhousing-12.jpg)
...I was able to just drill a hole on through the web on the back of the block. With that done....
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-Bellhousing-16.jpg)
...the bellhousing went on with bolts and a couple allen head bolts below the locating dowels.
Then ...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-Bellhousing-17.jpg)
.....I checked the bellhousing for center. I'll use some .007 offset dowels to get it closer hopefully.
As usual more pictures and info here....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/construction%20page-137.html
Sum
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It is so nice to have you back on these forums.
No Ruth. He won't forget you.
FREUD
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It is so nice to have you back on these forums.
No Ruth. He won't forget you.
FREUD
Good to be back and sorry we can't make your NW Reunion....
http://bonnevillenwreunion.com/ (http://bonnevillenwreunion.com/)
You guys have a great time. I'd of liked to of been there to hear...
(http://bonnevillenwreunion.com/images/tn_danwarner.jpg)
... that young guy above speak :-) I'll bet it will be a fun time for all,
Sumner and Ruth
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Sumner, why do these engines use hollow dowell pins instead of the solid pins like all the older Chevrolet engines both big block and small block?
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Sumner, why do these engines use hollow dowell pins instead of the solid pins like all the older Chevrolet engines both big block and small block?
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-Bellhousing-2-a.jpg)
The block side of the dowel pin hole is threaded. Marc told me that with the stock GM engine/transmission they have a bolt form the transmission bell through the dowel into those threads to suck the two together. He has some concern about bolting the trans. only to the adapter and not also into the block. The adapter is held on with 10 bolts to the block so I feel that it is a very solid install to the block and the transmission bolts to the adapter in the normal SBC/BBC manner as you pointed out.
I will be installing solid off-set pins so won't be able to use the threaded holes. You might be able to, especially with an auto.
Still on the right side...
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-4/14%20-%2001-06-14-Bellhousing-12.jpg)
... where the mount is below the pin I'll probably run the bolt into and through the adapter and through that hole in block web and put a nut on the other side and maybe run a bolt on the other side through the adapter into a threaded hole in the back of the block. That might be a good backup for a street driven vehicle, but for a race vehicle where you are taking things apart frequently probably overkill.
When do you get your 4200 for your pickup? Are you going to make your adapter or buy one from Marc? I'd recommend buying one but also know your spending habits :evil:,
Sum
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Sumner, I should get the engine this coming Friday or the following Monday. Would you want to sell me the second adapter that you have? Or should I go to Marc?
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Sumner, I should get the engine this coming Friday or the following Monday. Would you want to sell me the second adapter that you have? Or should I go to Marc?
I'm still toying with putting one of the 4's in the pickup with a turbo on it so want to keep the adapter at this point. Now saying that I don't need it now so if he doesn't have any right now it is yours and you could replace it later,
Sum
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Very nice work! I look forward to more posts on the install. This will all be helpful to us in the future :wink:
Wade
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Recently I posted that Marsh Racing Wheels has some other centers they can use if you are looking for more backspacing on their 15 inch wheels. Jim Cosgrove, the driver of the Das Bullet lakester asked me the other day for more info on them.
I received two of the wheels yesterday and took some pictures for him but decided to go ahead and post them on my site and here as they might help someone else also. You can find more pictures and info about the wheels on my site here....
http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/construction%20page-141.html (http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/construction%20page-141.html)
They have about 4 1/8 inch of backspacing, about 1 1/4 inch more than the wheels I recently bought for the back of the car since I was removing the Datsun chain drive rear and the wheels I had for it and going to a GM 7 1/2 with Ford tubes and axles, thus needing 5 on 4 1/2 wheels. The wheels I just received with the optional center with increased backspacing will decrease my scrub radius to about 1 inch.
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/Marsh-1.jpg)
Above is a picture that has on the left the wheels I recently bought for the rear with the maximum backspacing for that style center and the wheels that arrived yesterday with the optional center.
Another view of the ...
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/Marsh-2.jpg)
....back side of both wheels and as I mentioned before more pictures and info here...
http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/construction%20page-141.html (http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/construction%20page-141.html)
Sum
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Hey Sum, Happy Birthday my friend. :cheers:
Don
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Wow ---Sum are you still having those things!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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All the best Sum. Here's wishing you a great year. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Many happy returns Sumner!
All the best.
:cheers:
Fordboy
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Sparky said: "Wow ---Sum are you still having those things!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Sum, don't stop having birthdays! and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!
Rex
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Hey Sum, HAPPY BIRTH DAY. 8-)
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Happy Birthday friend.
May you see many more. :cheers:
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Thanks guys it means a lot :-) :-),
Sum
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WAIT!! Did I Miss Something???.....Was napping, perhaps.....Well done, Sumner....See you in August...
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Happy birthday Sum
Keep having them but don't count them.
See you in August
Bones
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Talked to Sum Friday, He was going through the Jewfish cut on Sat. to anchor on the Atlantic side of the keys Sat night and leave out Sun, Morning at 3:00 AM. Just read his post on the McGregor sailboat blog he mad it across just fine and will go through Customs and immigration at Bimini, Bahamas, plans on being there for 2 days.
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(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/22-03-24-Car-Me-2.jpg)
Hi guys, been quite a while since I've posted on this thread. Thought I'd try and bring you up to date with what is going on with myself and with the lakester. Basically time to move on from thinking I could still get this car on the salt myself. I'm hoping to find a new home for it where someone either continues with it or takes it in a different direction.
I've put it up for sale on the site here.....
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?topic=18789.msg341016#msg341016l
... but there is too much to explain what the sale consists of here so also have the info and pictures on my site here.....
http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/construction%20page-147.html
Even though I've pulled back from a more active role in Bonneville that doesn't mean I'm not still following what you guys are up to. So wish the best to all of you and have fun, go fast and be safe and enjoy the sport. It has given me a huge amount of pleasure and many friendships,
Sumner
P.S. I'll close with a few recent pictures of the car.
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/22-03-24-Car-Me-4.jpg)
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/22-03-25%20Car%20Alone-2.jpg)
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/22-03-25%20Car%20Alone-3.jpg)
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/22-03-25%20Car%20Alone-7.jpg)
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/22-03-25%20Car%20Alone-9.jpg)
Lots more pictures and detailed info here.....
http://1fatgmc.com/car/14-lakester-1/construction%20page-147.html
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Sum:
I learned a lot from reading your build thread. I appreciate you sharing. Good luck with the sale.
BR