Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Safety => Topic started by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 01, 2014, 11:44:28 AM
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Here is the newest thread on landracing.com's Forum. We've had a good number of discussions about this, that, and the other concerning helmets, and while some are fine right where they are, there are some that sholdn't be going on (the current one on the Michael Schumacher coma is the example to which I refer).
So - you're welcome to go on here about helmets - whether you think they're safe, if you've got a recommendation, if you've got a certain helmet and wonder if it'll be accepted when you get to XXX (whatever) race track. Put that stuff here and let's get busy with talking about them. Thanks. :-D
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Oh good, I get to do a helmet rant.
Every year the Love Ride is a charity motorcycle event on Los Angeles with thousands of participants.
(http://www.girlonamotorcycle.la/.a/6a0120a51d079d970c0133f45bee04970b-pi)
Not one wearing a full face helmet. Interesting how your own personal safety is overridden by desperately wanting to fit in with the culture.
The helmet is a device that narrowly extends the brains ability to take damage. Easy to overwhelm that edge. The brain just won't tolerate high-G deceleration, and does nothing for rotational injuries. A couple of years ago a Le Mans car spun out and was sitting sideways on the track. His team mate hit him on the rear corner and spun him like a top. He suffered a broken jaw. There wasn't a mark on the helmet, it came from rotational force.
As far as Michael Schumacher, if you see film from the 70's, skiers sedately made their way down the slope with nothing more than a sharp turn or two.
Today, everyone watches YouTube and sees the aerial stunts and heads out to duplicate them.
Risk management doesn't exist for a huge number of skiers, snow boarders, off and on road motorcycles, skate boards, parkour . . .
Schumacher was skiing out of bounds on ungroomed snow. Makes sense for a risk-taker to want more than conventional slopes offer. But the risk goes up, and the risk was taken.
Sonny Bono, Natasha Richardson, even Sarah Burke, a four-time X Games superpipe gold medalist who was fatally injured two years ago while skiing in Park City, Utah.
“There’s a push toward faster, higher, pushing the limits being the norm, not the exception,” said Nina Winans, a sports medicine physician at Tahoe Forest MultiSpecialty Clinics in Truckee, Calif. “So, all of those factors — terrain parks, jumping cliffs and opening terrain that maybe wasn’t open in the past — play into some of these statistics with injuries.”
The population most susceptible to that culture is the one that is dying, statistics show. Seventy percent of snow-sports fatalities involve men in their late teens to late 30s, according to the ski area association. That is the same population that most often engages in high-risk behaviors like driving fast. Head injuries remain the leading cause of deaths in skiing and snowboarding, Shealy said, with about 30 in the United States each year.
New York Times article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/01/sports/on-slopes-rise-in-helmet-use-but-no-decline-in-brain-injuries.html?ref=sports&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/01/sports/on-slopes-rise-in-helmet-use-but-no-decline-in-brain-injuries.html?ref=sports&_r=0)
Take your dune buggy out? At Glamis dunes in California on busy weekends they position THREE ambulances there.
These injuries cost tens of thousands of dollars. Guess who gets to pay for all of the injuries?
[/endrant]
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I read today the his helmet had a good size crack on it.
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Those bikers are playing with fire.
Those helmets only look like helmets.
They say if you've got a ten buck head wear a ten buck helmet. :wink:
Buy the best and don't compromise, period.
I've used both Bell and Simpson.
The Bell (XFM1) saved my life in 82. Even though not a bike helmet I crashed a bike at 180Ks and never even had a headache.
Current helmet is a Simpson Speedway Shark T38. I like the fit better than the Bell.
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This is something that just happened so I am not real comfortable talking about it. The info might save someone an injury. Here it goes. Werner was on his brand new Triumph on the Marine base a couple of weeks ago. He was wearing his protective gear and traveling at night on a two lane road.
Some clown was traveling the other way in a big Ford F-150 with only the dome light on and no headlights. He went over into Werner's lane. Werner slowed down and flashed his lights. The other guy did not see this and he hit Werner head on doing about 60. Werner had slowed down to about 20. Werner flew up over the truck and traveled a long way before he hit the deck. The bike and his combat boots were under the truck.
A lady driving by called the cops and the meat wagon. They took Werner to Scripps Hospital and did what they could. Rose went down to Pendleton and got him. He is mending here for a month or so before he goes back on duty. He is sorta a pain in the azz so that means he is getting well. A good sign.
His injuries are some broken foot and toe bones and cuts and bruises. The impact pulled him out of his boots and this trashed his feet. They cut off his helmet at the hospital. It was the full face one he wore at BUB when he set his record. The doc said it saved his life.
Werner has a square shaped head. It is common for his Dutch and German ancestry. It was very, very hard to find a helmet that fit him. My feelings are the helmet quality and fit were crucial to him being alive. We talked about this. He agreed.
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Any comments on the Simpson Avenger helmet? Price doesn't reflect normally high quality helmets.
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Bo, I can see why you're kind of hesitant to talk about Werner's crash. I was afraid, as I read your post, that you were going to say that he wasn't wearing safety garb. I know that the Air Force - and I assume the other branches of the military - requires all airmen to wear safety equipment - or lose medical coverage. In other words, if he hadn't been wearing a helmet he wouldn't have insurance.
I'm glad to hear that he's on the mend. Please send our best wishes to him for a happy new year -- and one for you, two. :cheers: :cheers:
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I buy a new helmet almost every year. I bought a Snell 2010 certified helmet just for this past BUB event. But what really bothers me is that the narrow opening while in the tucked position does not allow much forward vision. The top of the opening interferes with eyesight when I am in the head-down position. When I call the various dealers (Helmet City, etc.) they admit there are no helmet specs for being able to see while tucked. The opening sizes are not published.
This is a safety issue. Does anyone know of a brand and model that does allow forward vision while tucked down?
Thanks
Don
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Just out of curiosity have you tried contacting any of the helmet manufacturers directly. I don't know if it would do any good but it certainly couldn't hurt. You just never know.
Pete
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I buy a new helmet almost every year. I bought a Snell 2010 certified helmet just for this past BUB event. But what really bothers me is that the narrow opening while in the tucked position does not allow much forward vision. The top of the opening interferes with eyesight when I am in the head-down position. When I call the various dealers (Helmet City, etc.) they admit there are no helmet specs for being able to see while tucked. The opening sizes are not published.
This is a safety issue. Does anyone know of a brand and model that does allow forward vision while tucked down?
Thanks
Don
You never said what make you bought. Shoei or AGV top of the range bike helmets are better than most for tucked vision.
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I've had the same issue -- not being able to tilt my head back enough to be able to see very far down the track because the top of the face cut-out (for lack of a better word) is too low. And I got pretty much the same feedback when I questioned manufacturers, racers, dealers, and so on. They all said that their helmets meet the safety standards as they're stated, and while it might be possible to enlarge the top of the face cut-out - there's not a lot of request to do so. And there is certainly not nearly enough impetus to enlarge that to make it worth the while to spend the money to design, manufacture, and present to the safety certification group for acceptance.
I was therefore pretty much on my own to find as many helmets as I could and try them on/ask the owner about the height of the field of vision. Some helmets do have a little more than others, so then it was see if I could get one of them to use. I don't remember, I'm sorry to report, which helmet brands and models were the best, but I did end up with a KBC something-or-other model, and it's not bad at all.
Then there was the issue of my bifocals. Because I had my headed tilted up to see down the race course -- I wasn't able to see the gauges on the dashboard because the reading part of the lens was too far down. You should have heard the eye doctor and his staff asking me why the heck did I want the reading lens part of the glasses to be dang near in the (vertical) middle of the lens, and not at the bottom like they're "supposed" to be. :evil: I got 'em done my way -- and viola, I could see the track and the dashboard.
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Bo,
Look at Arai helmets for fit options. They have the largest selection of helmet shapes. Prices are premium, but so is fit and quality. They also use strand type foam inside that helps in protection with multiple hits in the same spot.
Dale
PS-I think they raised the eye port opening a few years ago in the Corsair.
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To add something else...
A couple of years ago one of the motorcycle mags performed comprehensive testing of a bunch of helmets. While I don't have the magazine right in front of me, what they found was that helmets certified to Snell transmitted more force than those certified to DOT only. In fact, the forces transmitted exceeded those recommended, although I can't remember the details offhand. A friend has the magazine if anyone wants more information on this. Based on this testing I purchased the helmet that transmitted the least force for riding on the street. My race helmet meets Snell of course. I don't expect any changes but found it interesting that Snell didn't seem to be the best choice.
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I buy a new helmet almost every year. I bought a Snell 2010 certified helmet just for this past BUB event. But what really bothers me is that the narrow opening while in the tucked position does not allow much forward vision. The top of the opening interferes with eyesight when I am in the head-down position. When I call the various dealers (Helmet City, etc.) they admit there are no helmet specs for being able to see while tucked. The opening sizes are not published.
This is a safety issue. Does anyone know of a brand and model that does allow forward vision while tucked down?
Thanks
Don
Simpson told me that they would build a helmet with the opening "cut" for motorcycle tuck. That may mean going by Simpson in New Braunfels, Texas for custom fitting and probably $$$. At least some of the NHRA PS Bike folks are doing this.
Rouse
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As Jon said "...requires all airmen to wear safety equipment - or lose medical coverage. In other words, if he hadn't been wearing a helmet he wouldn't have insurance."
Just wait 'til Obamacare kicks in--
1. You are required by law to have insurance.
2. Injuries cost $ to the system.
3. The whole system, like Social Security, is a Ponzi Scheme. There will never be enough $ to support the system.
4. Costs must be reduced.
5. Ban activities that result in injuries.
6. Government bans racing, skiing, motorcycles, hot rods, skin diving, sky diving, lowers speed limits to 35mph, etc.
7. Gotcha! :-o
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ (flame suit on)
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I always want all the protection I can get. Racing off road bikes for years has taught me this.
I'll comment on some of my experiences. During an enduro I went down and could tell my head hit hard, but not enough to make me even fuzzy minded. Later I was looking at my good quality Bell helmet and the jaw part around the front was seriously cracked. I'm glad this wasn't my face that took that hit with the ground or handlebars or rock or whatever. Another time I was play riding and endoed on a diversion ditch. I had on a helmet but no armor. My left shoulder was seriously messed up and I spent considerable hospital time. I remember my head and shoulder grinding along on the ground just after going over the bars. I'm glad I had on a helmet and wish I had had on shoulder pads. The only time I was ever knocked cold was sledding in the snow. Obviously no helmet.
There have been several times while wearing a helmet and armor that I have went down hard, got up, dusted myself off and kept going. Having crashed with and without protective gear (I'm a professional.......crasher) I choose the protective gear.
I feel so strongly about safety gear that I bought one of those riding jackets with armor built in for when I ride on the street. All three of my helmets are full face.
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One Saturday I rode all around Portland and tried on all of the different helmet brands. Often I sat on a showroom bike or my scoot out in the parking lot to see how the helmet worked when down on the tank. It took all day. Most were pretty similar as per forward vision when hunched over on the tank. There was a noticeable difference for the better on one or two. The Shoei Qwest is what I bought.
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Dean makes an excellent post about extreme sports and technical levels. I ride mountainbike and have seen things escalating for the last 15-20 years. Just locally here we have had to tragic accidents with weekend downhillers. One is paralyzed and one dead, the dead one hit a tree with his upper body and helmet. I have been down hard on moto cycle and bicycle and saved by the helmets but when the insanity level gets to a certain point you have to take stock and see what really matters. Hard for some of us competitive types to do.
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"1. You are required by law to have the insurance."
Unless you choose not to, then you are up for a fine that's probably less than what you'd pay for the insurance, and you are still "entitled" to medical care
Between Ins $ hikes and the tax increases that will pick up what's not covered by the hikes , the cost will probably outspend any other US budget item.
Maybe we should all volunteer to be on a Med Insurance Assigned Risk Category ?
I could make a good argument on why a sedate Library haunting/tomato grower type should pay the same premiums as people the same age with very active physical life styles.
Nomex on...BW
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Bob;
" "1. You are required by law to have the insurance."
Unless you choose not to, then you are up for a fine that's probably less than what you'd pay for the insurance,..."
The fine is low the first year and then it escalates rapidly. The present regime's ultimate goal is to eliminate all insurance companies and have the government provide all medical care, supported by increased taxes.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ (Carbon-X suit on)
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More "executive orders" today, and we've got three more years of this guy. Don't know if we'll last.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Again I'll mention the story about my Republican but now dead dad and his experience. After Mom died Dad moved to Austria and lived with his new-found girl friend, Anna. The declared a "life partnership" agreement - and he became, for all intents and purposes, a tax-paying but benefit receiving Austrian citizen (while staying American citizen and getting his SS checks, too).
He lived there about a dozen years - and never failed to tell me how much better the socialised medicine was than the stuff here in the States. He would shake his head in wonder about the folks that didn't know any better - and admit that he had been one of them before he moved there. He insisted that while taxes were higher than he paid while living in the US -- that the benefits he received - health, yes, and other things that you might not think of like better security and policing and other tax-supported items - were far and away more and less expensive than in the US. His outlay was lower, all things considered - and his benefits received was better.
It might be hard to swallow -- but maybe our system in America is NOT the best of all possible worlds. Over to you. And by the way, helmets are required in Austria for bikes but not cars. Britain requires leathers as well as helmets, right?
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If anyone thinks their socialized medecine system is better, they are perfectly free to move there.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I'd rather stay in the US -- but would be happy if the medical, legal, and insurance lobbies weren't concerned first with money before health care.
Neil, I don't think we should go on too much more without taking this to a separate topic. You're welcome to take a return shot at me -- I don't want to be guilty of saying something and then cutting off discussion before anyone can fire back, but for the sake of those that want to talk about helmets instead of stuff not quite germane to the topic -- lets take the discussion out of the room (if you'd like). :-)
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I made a specials trip to the UK to visit Hospitals, a total of 10 in 7 days. I saw things from the inside out, and I have to tell you, what I saw was not pretty at all. I thought I had gone through a time machine back 50 years, and that my friends, is being very kind in my assessment.
We have the best me Medical quality in the world, problem is, we also have greedy Hospitals, insurance companies, and attorneys. Medical billing prices are way the hell out of control, and going communist ain't going to fix the problem there. It's going to take a tidal shift to fix the price of medical care. Giving everyone a since of entitlement that someone else has to pay for their medical bills, rabid attorneys, and insurance companies run on guaranteed "cost plus basis", leave little room for cost cutting.
All said and done, I still buy the best helmet I can, so hopefully I want need any medical care.
Rouse
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Truce...................
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Hi all,
From helmets to politics hey!!!
My own view on helmets...
I bought my 1st helmet in 1974... Sort of a trial rider affair (the type you see on H-D XLCH Sportsters ads in the 60s...), an outside layer of GRP, then riveted tension straps inside, bits of foam, bit of an eyebrow over the eyes... Not much I hear you say...
Been riding on the road with it ever since...
Tried a few others over the years cause my friends can't believe I can ride fast with THAT thing... So tried to ride with them full face, 1/2 face, with no side vision, with hearing impediments due to umpteen layers of foam and never mind the extra weight and the poor aero that bogs me down... Basically, I did not felt safe with these and keep going back to my old death trap...
So, obviously, I ride with a deadly intent to not fall and will do anything I can to avoid fall or crashes. This is not easy I admit... So far since I had the bike test in 74, 3 crashes which resulted in bruised skin.
Since this forum is in the States, not in the Europeans Nanny States as we call them over here , that want to regulate every aspect of your life and welfare, I feel I follow the US practice of looking at the problems and taking some personal decisions to analyse where is the acceptable risk to me...
Somewhere along the lines in our life, passive safety as become the ugly standard, overtaking active safety (your brain mainly...) which is more efficient in my point of view...
Patrick
PS, used to ski a lot in my youth, never had an helmet for that, same as for bicycles, horse riding, the lot...
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...... Britain requires leathers as well as helmets, right?
Nope!
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Ah, the stories they foist upon us. :?
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I offer that anyone who wears a helmet might be interested in my April Fuel For Thought column in the Goodguys Gazette. Aside form some fun with Tom Long's belly tank model, I spend a good deal of time previewing Stand 21's new "Lid Lifter" -- a remarkable, simple device part of the nomex head sock that will doubtless save lives in the future. Both my husband (a lifelong motorcyclist) and myself have personally tested the new item and I can't think of any reason to not have them under every racing helmet.
Looking at it is one thing, but the moment you actually try it, the bulb lights up.
And so utterly simple. . .
geez,
Louise
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That lid lifter is a great idea, Louise, I would wear one.
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That is pretty cool!
Here is the link.
http://www.stand21.com/products.r-2/underwear.r-14/balaclavas.r-46/lid-lifter.f-289.html
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Hope this device passes muster. Could prevent a lot impact brain injury.
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/600691/new-collar-promises-to-keep-athletes-brains-from-sloshing-during-impact/#/set/
POPS