Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Scottie J on December 04, 2013, 08:36:42 AM
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Hi there everyone! :-)
My name is Scottie and I'm new to the forum and LSR, but here's what I got!
A few months ago I was looking for a second motor to build up and drop in my '58 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer that I restored last year. Upon my searches, I ended up coming across a nearly complete '59 Chief for a smoking deal, I basically got the whole bike for the price I was hoping to pay for just the motor and trans. The motor had spun a crank bearing and the PO didn't want to invest the time or money into the bike. I made him an offer over the phone and the next thing I know I have a 7' crate full of bike parts showing up at work. Which brings me to my first serious question...... Has everyone on this forum told their significant others just what exactly they are building and what speeds they are attempting? My wife is clueless, and I have no idea how to tell her I plan on breaking 200mph on a 54 year old motorcycle. Anyways.....
I started researching doing a performance build on 1 of these Enfield 700cc twins since I picked up the Trailblazer last year. From what I've been able to research, the weakest links is the factory connecting rods and low valve lift coming from the heads/cams. The crank itself, from what I've read, is actually one of the beefiest motorcycle cranks ever built, particularly at the time of production. It is a 1-piece forged crank with massive 45mm main journals (which was unheard of at that time) with roller bearings. Unfortunately the connecting rods were made out of some experimental "pot metal" which were notorious for grenading under serious load which then gave these motors a bad reputation for having a weak bottom end, when in fact it was just crap connecting rods. That should not be an issue for me as I am going to have custom CP pistons and Carrillo rods made and then I am having the entire rotating assembly balanced at Falicon Cranks to 10,000 RPMs and plan on actually redlining somewhere between 8500-9000 RPMs. The pistons are going to need to be pretty damn big, somewhere around a 16:1 static compression ratio, so I can get dynamic compression up to around 13.5:1.
I sent the heads to Tom Lyons at Ace Cafe in Tennessee. He specializes in building performance Enfield Bullets and works closely with the guys at Mondello's. I'm hoping they will get a chance to flow the heads sometime this week and get the baseline flow reading. We are also talking about fabbing some custom built high ration rockers to get some more valve lift out of the heads, but were not exactly sure how to as there is limited room in the vlave cover/rocker area. But, based on rough figures, Tom is pretty confident that we can achieve what I'm hoping to accomplish, and that is to break 200mph on a single engine under 1000cc on a Royal Enfield bike. I know one gentleman did 205mph on an Enfield, but that was with 2 - 750cc Interceptor motors chained together in the same chassis. I would REALLY like to hit 210mph so I can crush every Enfield record out there, plus earn the bragging rights to The World's Fastest Indian. Plan on reading a lot of "dumb" questions from me in the upcoming year or so as I put this beast together. As far as I know, NO ONE has ever attempted to build an Enfield motor as wild as I am building this one. Hopefully a little luck will be on my side. ;-)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/59Chief1_zps67f952b7.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/59Chief1_zps67f952b7.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/59Chief2_zps8bcab66d.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/59Chief2_zps8bcab66d.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/Crate1_zps4c54d80b.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/Crate1_zps4c54d80b.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/CAM01190_zpsa0d590bf.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/CAM01190_zpsa0d590bf.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/CAM01193_zpsac485587.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/CAM01193_zpsac485587.jpg.html)
Scottie
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I know next to nothing about bikes but that crank sure looks massive---I look forward to following your SALT JOURNEY!!
On the "wifey thing" :-o
I think you need to convince her that " The Worlds Fastest Indian" is really a chick flick, buy wine and roses every time you get her to watch it with you, when the moon is full in front of a fireplace on a fur rug!! :roll: good luck with the wife you may need it! lol
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Welcome to land speed racing Scottie. Going 200 at Bonneville on an unfaired motorcycle is an ambitious goal, but to do it with near-vintage technology is a tall order. Do you plan to run normally aspirated? Will it burn nitromethane? Will you use a land speed fairing? best of luck, and I look forward to following your progress. -Dean
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I have build a couple of Enfields in my time........and yes, do replace the rods.....200mph?????? It certainly would be the World Fastest "Indian"....are you making a new frame/chassis????? I got to see the twin engine Enfield run many years back....the chassis/frame was made out of alum. plates...nice work
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As a addition to my last post......the Enfield engine was (back in the 1960's) a great power unit for road racing sidecars...lots of low end power and no oil tank was needed. I believe Barnett Tool and Eng. still has a after market clutch for the Enfields......you will need one once you make some power........................
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Sparky - Great idea! Love it!
Sabat - I plan on running methanol for fuel. I'll be running dual 34mm Mikunis naturally aspirated in hopes of flowing about 160cfm per head. And I was thinking of using a fairing.
Bak189 - I'll be using the factory chassis with modern wheels, suspension, brakes and an extended swingarm.
Scottie
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Great, a fairing will make it easier to go 200. The current MPS-F record is 223mph, held by Joe Amo.
How much horsepower do you think you can make?
Dean
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Scottie, think "dummy receipts". "Honey, I see you've found the receipt for the $7 set of connecting rods I got down at the local Auto Zone."
Get to be good friends with the countermen at the various local parts stores and you'll be a happier fellow. :roll: :roll:
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QI'm shooting for 80-110hp at the wheel, factory was 40hp at the block. Ironically I was an assistant manager at Advance Auto Parts for 2 years and an still good friends with everyone I worked with.
Scottie
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You're going to need a pretty small package and a very slippery fairing to go 200 with 110hp.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/aerohpcalc.html
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How do I come up with the Cd# ?
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Heres a pic of a 750 Enfield that ran fuel. I seem to remember 150-160 speeds?...bike on the left.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5202.0;attach=9060;image
Here is his other fuel bike, which I heard was the first open bike over 200 (one way). It ran a little over 190 the day I took this pic; he was right ahead of me in staging (it was running APS that year...we talked about putting my full fairing on his bike, but I ran all week and it was gonna' need too much fabricating anyway.)
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5202.0;attach=9058;image
JimL
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Good luck, shooting for ANY of Joes records is a tough feat! :cheers:
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Help!
Whose was the dual Enfield fuel bike that ran 200+ at El Mirage in the 70's?
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How do I come up with the Cd# ?
Either by backward-calculation, or in a wind tunnel.
I would guess that the new Catalyst LSR fairing is around .30 - .35 ? Maybe 6 sqft frontal area?
http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/SpeedWeek%202013/Photos/Aug13/DSCN1275.JPG
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Don Sliger was the guy who built the dual engine Interceptor. He was the first man to break 200mph with an unstreamlined bike. I believe he ran just over 203mph. Also, are these lsr fairings available for sale or does one have to fabricate it themselves?
Scottie
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Scottie,
My bike is pretty slippery, and I've managed a 143 mph record with 45 rear wheel hp. Using the rule of cubes (required hp increases at the cube of the desired new speed), I calculate that I can go 200 mph with 123 hp. And that requires everything to be perfect. My bike is partially streamlined with a specially built long low frame and fairing. I live in Lafayette, Colorado in the spring and fall, so I may be able to provide some help when I'm there. As for my significant other, she knows exactly what I spend because she keeps the books! I seem to be able to go thru 8 to 10K per year on upgrades (includes some other projects). Otherwise, I just might try to find 123 hp, somehow. Hard to do with a single cylinder. Learn to walk before you run.
Tom
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Hi Tom
How much power do you think a turbo 4 valve Thumper can make ?
G Don
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Hi Tom
How much power do you think a turbo 4 valve Thumper can make ?
G Don
Not to hijack Scottie's thread here, but I can't imagine more than 70 for the 500 before it blows. And of course, the 4 valve head (Westlake?) that was made for a 441 BSA never achieved much success that I know of. Anyway, turbocharging a single cylinder has not worked well in most cases, but a supercharger will.
Tom
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Scottie J, we got a 600 Suzuki PP to a little over 160 for a record, using several things that rules are now written against:
---I think you better be looking at A full fairing, & a LOT of NITRO or snoot full of NITROUS if you are looking to go + 2 ymmv
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Thanx, Scottie.
I had the Don, just not the Sliger.
Is that the bike in Reply #11?
(Been a long time.)
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This is Don Sliger from about 1970 methinks. Should be from the time of the first 200mph run.
Enjoy!
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/bubbamatt/Bonneville-from%201970%20on/donsliger_zpsaadd41e4.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/bubbamatt/media/Bonneville-from%201970%20on/donsliger_zpsaadd41e4.jpg.html)
Matt Guzzetta
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Kimtab Snowflakes! Maybe '71-'72 when those hit the market? .....cant remember. :|. I recall the early ones didnt have the bead area quite right...but not sure of the year.
Oh well....
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Kimtab Snowflakes! Maybe '71-'72 when those hit the market? .....cant remember. :|
The MK I Interceptor was introduced in 1963. It was basically the upgraded 692cc punched +.040 with 92mm stroke making it a 736cc, it also had bigger camshafts. In 1964 they introduced the MK II which was completely redesigned and boasted 60hp. I'll actually be using a few of the MK I parts in my build like the camshafts and Hitchcocks 1 piece alloy cylinder. And from what I'm told by Hitchcocks I'm the first person to mount the 1 piece alloy cylinder to a 692cc case.
Scottie
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Phew! thats a pretty ambitious project you have there Scotty!
One thing though; I'm sure I remember that the big ol' crank was cast nodular iron rather than forged. Which is why its so massive. I thought the big-end journals were bigger than 45mm; Seem to remember 1.875".
But its a long time since I saw one apart.
Good luck!
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I had a little fun last night. I'm all jazzed up about building my '59 Chief that when I got home last night I fired up The Blackhawk (my '58 Trailblazer) and went and played in the snow for a bit. It was a blast! Tho I must say that is the heaviest bike I've ever man handled in the snow. But holy shit does it run good even when it is -4°F. The Blackhawk is essentially identical to the Chief, except the Blackhawk has 71mm bore and the Chief will be getting probably 72.5mm and dual carbs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXY3VhAaLPo&feature=youtube_gdata
Scottie
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What class? 72.5mm bore by 92mm stroke equals 759.2 ccs. If it was 71 mm stock, or even 71.5 stock, I think you're only allowed .5mm overbore at SCTA. As far as I know, no overbore allowance at BUB's.
Tom
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What class? 72.5mm bore by 92mm stroke equals 759.2 ccs. If it was 71 mm stock, or even 71.5 stock, I think you're only allowed .5mm overbore at SCTA. As far as I know, no overbore allowance at BUB's.
Tom
I don't have a rule book and I'm not at all familiar with the different classes. My Chief will have a 90mm stroke, but no over boring? What's up with that?
Scottie
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72.5x90 is under 750 so you are good to run the 750 class... some of those records are slower than the 1000.... some not so much....
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750cc class break
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You know guys, originally I wanted to boost this motor with an aftermarket EFI set up and push about 8-10 psi of boost but then I found out you can't use EFI in the vintage classes. BUT then you guys are saying that my bike is actually considered a classic. Should I still be looking into boosting my motor or are the same rules going to apply? I could definitely create a lot more power boosting the motor and being able to program a fuel map. My coworker/friend/engine guy specializes in building boosted Subaru motors. He has a '04 Forrester and a '99 Impreza that both lay down 420 HP at the wheels and are daily drivers. He knows his shit when it comes to turbos.
Scottie
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ok, time to decide what you want to do... get a rulebook for running SCTA, while you wait, find the AMA rules on the Bub Website. The organizations have some different classes and rules... they run different meets.
You can build a boosted bike and run in either one, but learn the rules before you build.
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Yeah, if you want to run in vintage, the cases & heads must be pre '56. They can be later as long as they're unchanged from a pre '56 model.
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Okie Dokie! :-D
Downloaded both the SCTA Rookie Orientation Booklet and also the AMA BUB Rule Book. After reading through the AMA BUB Rule Book it looks like I want to run either MPS-CBF or MPS-CF. I'd really like to run MPS-CBF class but I can't find a record for that particular class code. Does it actually exist and no one has attempted it or is it one of the chassis/engine combinations that is not allowed?
BTW I really truly appreciate everyone giving me a hand at getting on my feet and getting this build underway. Thanks Guys! :cheers:
Scottie
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most likely means open record
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Scottie, I'm not a bike guy by any means, but here's my advice. Get a rule book. Everyone says it, and they do for a reason. I can't imagine anything more terrible than spending tons of time and money, then getting to the salt and not being able to run.
Second, instead of going after a record, go after a good time. Everybody wants to break a record, but not everyone will. Go out there with a realistic number in your mind and if you run faster than that... Great! If you start out with 200mph in your head, then every time you don't run that fast you'll be upset and frustrated.
200mph is fast. It's real fast! My personal goal is to hit 200. This year? Nope. Next year? Probably not. But I'm darn sure not giving up till I get there!
Good luck with your buid and I hope to see ya on the Salt! :cheers:
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Okie Dokie! :-D
Downloaded both the SCTA Rookie Orientation Booklet and also the AMA BUB Rule Book. After reading through the AMA BUB Rule Book it looks like I want to run either MPS-CBF or MPS-CF. I'd really like to run MPS-CBF class but I can't find a record for that particular class code. Does it actually exist and no one has attempted it or is it one of the chassis/engine combinations that is not allowed?
BTW I really truly appreciate everyone giving me a hand at getting on my feet and getting this build underway. Thanks Guys! :cheers:
Scottie
The Classic class is new to BUB, having only been established a couple of years ago. That is why you won't find many records. It is a changing year class, 35 year old bikes, which means that in 2014, any bike made after 1979 is allowable. So if you run in MPS-CBF 750 class, your competition could be 1979 blown 4 cylinder twin overhead cam Japanese bikes. Or you could run MPS-PBF (modified chassis, partially streamlined, pushrod motor, blown on fuel), which would exclude everything except pushrod motors, and the year does not matter. Incidentally, there is no current record at BUB's in that class either, and the record at SCTA seems to be 158.462 mph.
Tom
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The Classic class is new to BUB, having only been established a couple of years ago. That is why you won't find many records. It is a changing year class, 35 year old bikes, which means that in 2014, any bike made after 1979 is allowable. So if you run in MPS-CBF 750 class, your competition could be 1979 blown 4 cylinder twin overhead cam Japanese bikes. Or you could run MPS-PBF (modified chassis, partially streamlined, pushrod motor, blown on fuel), which would exclude everything except pushrod motors, and the year does not matter. Incidentally, there is no current record at BUB's in that class either, and the record at SCTA seems to be 158.462 mph.
Tom
[/quote]
That is an excellent point! I'd be much better off running MPS-CBF. Is there any place to download rules regarding ignitions and fuel delivery?
Scottie
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The mains are 1.875", not metric.
The crank is nodular cast-iron, and I don't want to be in the same state when it turns 9,000 RPM.
The original rods are aluminum alloy very much like those used by Triumph, Ariel, BSA, Norton twins for 50 years.
200 is going to need at least 1 of the following:
1. second engine
2. turbo or blower
3. large dose of nitrous or nitromethane
I note with alarm the recent trend to invoke the "dynamic compression ratio". It makes wonderful bar stool conversation, but has very little application in LSR.
It also requires you to know, prior to the calculation:
1. static CR
2. stroke length
3. rod length
4. intake valve closing point
Doing some numbers very quickly, an IVC about 55° ABDC will drop the DCR to 13.5
16:1 is going to require a really tall dome, and (if possible) a second plug location.
The valve reliefs will probably need to be hand-fitted as closely as possible to the actual valve curtain "footprint" at its point of tangency to the dome.
Examine your head bolt pattern very closely, and google about this - I think I remember extra bolts added to prevent gasket failure.
A bigger rocker will take some work, but space typically isn't the problem, because the new rocker will be smaller in stature. The ratio is raised by shortening the distance from the pushrod adjuster to central shaft. You may also wish to re-clock the lever angles to prep the geometry once your lift is known.
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If you are serious about trying to get that antique to run 200 you need to be sure to study everything Tom Mellor has done with his Triumph triple. Yes it is a ten year newer design, but it is still a British pushrod design. Tom doesn't make Hayabusa type horsepower, but he does have a very slippery bike that just cheats the wind.
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An afterthought on CR vs. IVC:
Unless the ICL is weird, closing at 55° ABDC probably isn't enough intake duration for peak power; something closer to 70° will be better.
Yes, that will drop the DCR significantly but IMHO the trade-off is a net gain.
I can't find anything about single vs. dual pattern, I would pose this specific question to your head porter: what's the intake:exhaust flow proportion over the lift range you'll be using?
For exhaust I suggest reverse-cone megaphones, partially because they're easy to modify after construction (a 2>1 is a nightmare).
IIRC these engines have a sump in the crankcase. This is going to need some work as if it were an automotive (wet) pan re: windage, scraper, pickup location instead of following best practice for a Triumph etc. with remote oil.
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Are the Royal Enfields dry sump with the oil held in a separate reservoir in the crank cases? At least that is what I remember. It was a lot of years ago.
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I'm more worried about not getting enough lift out of the valves and not even hitting 9000 rpms than I am about the crankshaft grenading. I'm going to balance the rotating assembly to at least 10,000 rpms so if it's going to go it will most likely happen during balancing. But I have to disagree about DC not being important. Now I'll admit I'm brand new to LSR, but how can anyone expect to get max HP out of a motor without blueprinting out? Fyi the cams I'm using the intake closes at at 77° and the exhaust open at 75°. Intake lift is .328 exhaust is .344. My head guy is keeping in close contact with me and we are blueprinting the motor together.
Are the Royal Enfields dry sump with the oil held in a separate reservoir in the crank cases? At least that is what I remember. It was a lot of years ago.
Correct it is a dry sump motor, 2 oil pumps.
And another question. I see it is not required to runfront brakes. Do any of you guys run a front brake?
Scottie
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no
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I think you need to read up on balancing.
Who did your CR > DCR calculation?
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I think you need to read up on balancing.
Yeah; that. Spinning a crank up to balance it doesn't replicate reciprocating forces.
If you're working with Falicon on the crank, I think you'd be well advised to discuss the possibility of a billet crank.
Hell, you're in the US! getting someone to make a billet crank is easy! :-D
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My experience is with BSA and Triumph twins and mainly the unit construction ones. It was essential to blueprint those motors. These were checked and rectified as needed:
crank centerline parallel to crankcase deck
crank centerline parallel to cam centerline
cylinder base parallel to cylinder deck
bores at right angles to cylinder deck and base
Hopefully Enfield has better machining practices than BSA and Triumph.
The Hinckley Triumph I run is a fully developed race motor and far stronger than any of those old ones. It can run up to 9,000 rpm without blowing apart. Engine life is pretty short at those speeds. The rev limiter is set at 8,500 rpm and it is never run over 8,000 rpm through the mile, and I like it to be around 7,300 to 7,500 rpm. The reason: sometimes it takes a whole lotta miles at full throttle to do what needs to be done. The engine needs to stay together through all of this. The point of saying this is that land speed engines lead hard lives. This needs to be considered when they are set up.
(7,500 / 9,000) x 100 = 83% The engine is set up to run continuously at around 83 percent of its maximum rpm and this is what I usually use.
(8,000 / 9,000) x 100 = 89% The engine will run at 89% of maximum, and this is not done unless it is essential to snag a record.
Anyway, this is how one guy out of hundreds of us does it.
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Billet crank? That sounds awesome! And awesomely expensive.
Panic - Tom Lyons at Ace Cafe is doing my head work and helping me crunch the numbers.
wobblywalrus - I like your thinking about how you run your motor. That makes perfect sense and will take into consideration with the blueprinting.
I did a little research also, and I an definitely going to running EFI and probably a Garrett G1241 turbo. Probably shoot for a 9:1 DCR and start with 4-6 PSI of boost.
Scottie
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Hi Scottie,
I've been following your build as I've been doing something somewhat similar...
Wobblywalrus is so correct that rpm will hurt our old motors faster than about anything else, ,, boost is not that hard on the motors if the heating issues are under control....
I'd go for 5 psi minimum and 7.5 psi max to start with...You will not get any net power increase till you are past 2/3 psi as it is going to take that much boost to offset the drag of the blower...
Don't spin the blower any faster that necessary to reach the boost level you need as it will waste power and puts even more heat into the compressed fuel mixture.
Use an electric fuel pump to maintain fuel flow or you will wish you had,,,gravity feed will not cut it 99% of the time. Efi will do it as it will have to have a pump...
I think you should consider dropping the compression ratio way lower....You could realize more power "down the road" by working up the boost levels to put back the compression and the heating problems you will have will be less abrupt . Put in a CHT gauge and watch it like a hawk....
Air cooled engines are good at 350 to 400 degrees F Cylinder Head Temp. Redline should be 425 to 450 degrees depending on the quality of the cylinder head alloy . Don't push against the redline on a long pull or you will kill your motor....You can get away with murder at a drag strip with the motor temps because of the short run time... WFO for mile after mile is way different...
Use boost and not rpm to make power and life will be way easier later on....
Best of luck with everything,
Robert
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I had to guess at the rod length, but 16:1 with IVC at 77° ABDC is much lower than 13.5:1, closer to 11.2:1.
I assume that with the turbo the cam choice goes back on the table?
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X2 on boost vs. RPM, the motor will stand more stress from just cylinder pressure than pressure plus inertial load.
Since you have T120 spec primary (ISO 06B-2) a small blower could be run off this; Triumphs ran blowers in front of the engine.
The small engine size dictates a small blower to reduce parasitic loss and improve sealing, such as an Eaton M24. More about this in my article:
http://www.victorylibrary.com/supercharger/super.htm
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Hi, Interesting!!!...
I'm usually tuning my side valve, 5.5 to 1 static, and have great pain to understand the race towards higher CRs on boosted engines...
A simple calc will show anybody that the lower the static CR on a boosted engine, the more mixture you can cram in (capacity plus head volume every 2 revs so, if CR is lower, head volume is bigger...)
So it boils down to: is it better in the same cylinder to burn "some more" at a boosted 10/1 CR or burn "some less" at a boosted 14/1 CR???
Stresswise, I'll always opt for the lower ratio!!! Last time on the Salt Flats, an average 2 mile run took me about 1mn1/2 (1mn to get to the start of the 2nd mile, second mile over 120mph = about 20 seconds) As mentionned before, all that on a fully loaded WOT vintage engine...
Another thing to consider for your engine and its longevity: to get to 200mph, how many miles will you need... Traction was a bit poor this year. On my best run, I entered the 2nd mile at 118mph and exited at 123mph, 5mph gained in 1 mile and I tried my hardest to go faster but the rear tyre just wanted to spin on the salt. 123mph with a 135mph gearing/engine speed, the difference was tyre spin.
Patrick,
PS: see most of you again next year, I'm a fully grown addict now...
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More about "balance the rotating assembly to at least 10,000 rpms".
"Balancing" is adjusting the flywheel mass to (partially) compensate for the distribution of weight between rotating and reciprocating components, and for the general layout of the engine (single, parallel twin, V-twin, L4 etc.).
RPM is not a factor in balancing, so balancing to 10,000 RPM is the same as 10 RPM.
What may wreck this engine is not out-of-balance forces (although important) but torsion-induced vibration, which cannot be removed or even reduced by balancing.
This force is always present during operation, and can be predicted to some degree as to exactly when the forces are large enough to cause damage.
In automotive (and some motorcycle) engines this is addressed with a harmonic damper (improperly called a "balancer"), which if properly selected suppresses vibration at specific RPM points. The RPM at which these points occur is greatly affected by engine design, and by the rigidity of the flywheel (very good, in this case).
RE engines don't have anything like this as OEM, and none have been offered in the aftermarket TIKO.
One might be constructed and attached to the engine sprocket, but it's an engineering project on its own.
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An Indian/Enfield twin set a record at BUB this year in the 750-P-PV class at 79.451 mph. There is a nice full page picture of it in Sccoter's book.
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Thanks for the clarification on balancing panic. And as far as I know there are no harmonic dampers available for REs.
An Indian/Enfield twin set a record at BUB this year in the 750-P-PV class at 79.451 mph. There is a nice full page picture of it in Sccoter's book.
That's pretty lame. I've had my '58 Trailblazer to 92 mph on my GPS and it's geared super short.
Scottie
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Dont forget that at the elevation of Bonneville and its lower air density, you're automatically down about 10-20% on power.
Lots of folks (me included!) have shown up at the salt thinking its going to be easy and gone home with tail between legs!
A 92mph bike will be lucky to go 79 at Bonneville.
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S J I think the boys are trying to tell you Welcome to the LSR school--- My buddy Russ Mack bike was called "Bonniville Elementary Skool"
Some of us have GEDs others PHDs but for most of us we share a common bond for most of us we got nearly a graduate degree in engineering whith what we had to learn to get there YMMV
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Hey, I am going to tell you what the other posting here apparently are to shy to tell you....There is NO way you can get that Enfield to go 200mph.................Sorry, but that is a fact............
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Dont forget that at the elevation of Bonneville and its lower air density, you're automatically down about 10-20% on power.
Lots of folks (me included!) have shown up at the salt thinking its going to be easy and gone home with tail between legs!
A 92mph bike will be lucky to go 79 at Bonneville.
I live in Denver, I'm about 1,200' HIGHER than Bonneville. Once I rejetted the carb I'd actually pick up a couple mph if anything. And for the bike I'm building now will EFI with laptop interface so I can program the fuel map to whatever I need.
Hey, I am going to tell you what the other posting here apparently are to shy to tell you....There is NO way you can get that Enfield to go 200mph.................Sorry, but that is a fact............
Yee have little faith. I might not hit 200mph my first time out. But I WILL hit it one day with this bike. Thanks for your motivational words of kindness. :-D
Scottie
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Hey, I am going to tell you what the other posting here apparently are to shy to tell you....There is NO way you can get that Enfield to go 200mph.................Sorry, but that is a fact............
Even with a blower, methanol, and a fancy fairing? I have zero experience with pushrod engines, I'm curious how far off you think this combo would be?
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Dont forget that at the elevation of Bonneville and its lower air density, you're automatically down about 10-20% on power.
Lots of folks (me included!) have shown up at the salt thinking its going to be easy and gone home with tail between legs!
A 92mph bike will be lucky to go 79 at Bonneville.
I live in Denver, I'm about 1,200' HIGHER than Bonneville. Once I rejetted the carb I'd actually pick up a couple mph if anything. And for the bike I'm building now will EFI with laptop interface so I can program the fuel map to whatever I need.
Oops! Sorry mate; didn't notice that! You'll be well placed to get your tune right then.
But whilst rejetting & EFI will make it run right, there will still be less oxygen molecules going in than at sea level. Only forced induction will make up for that.
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A few notable pushrod records at AMA/BUB you can shoot for:
750cc - A-PG 130.903 Blackwell, J Harley-Davidson 2012
750cc - A-PBG 127.795 Daly, J Buell 2011
750cc - APS-PF 142.608 LeiNeweber, Justin Triumph Trident 2013
750cc - APS-PBG 133.952 Daly, C Buell 2011
750cc - M-PG 159.903 Mellor, T Triumph 2008
750cc - MPS-PG 180.317 Tom Mellor, Triumph Trident 2008
1000cc - APS-PG 200.082 Tom Mellor, Triumph Trident 2013
1650cc - APS-PBF 207.803 Perewitz, J Perewitz 2013
2000cc - APS-PBF 218.838 Minonno, J Harley-Davidson 2008
3000cc - M-PBF 190.413 Koiso, H Harley-Davidson 2011
3000cc - MPS-PBF 214.342 Koiso, H Harley-Davidson 2013
3000cc - MPS-PBG - 210.646 Koiso,H Harley-Davidson 2013
Just giving you the scope to strive for. Check the rules and the records before you go.
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"I plan on running methanol for fuel. I'll be running dual 34mm Mikunis naturally aspirated in hopes of flowing about 160cfm per head. And I was thinking of using a fairing. I'll be using the factory chassis with modern wheels, suspension, brakes and an extended swingarm." Scottie
Come on you guys! He's got this all figured out. Why are you picking on him?
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"I plan on running methanol for fuel. I'll be running dual 34mm Mikunis naturally aspirated in hopes of flowing about 160cfm per head. And I was thinking of using a fairing. I'll be using the factory chassis with modern wheels, suspension, brakes and an extended swingarm." Scottie
Come on you guys! He's got this all figured out. Why are you picking on him?
Thanks Stan. :-) Like I've said before, I've been researching this build for over a year, inside and out. I know what my '58 is capable of and I know what other guys have done to their Interceptors. Guys are hitting mid 130's to low 140's mph on their NA cafe/race bike Interceptors. Not only are these guys EXTREMELY limited to their gearing availability/options but they are also NA. If I take all the steps these guys have already done, plus the fact that I'm having Ace Cafe & Mondello's build the heads, and then cram at least 8psi of boost, not to mention a fully programmable EFI system, PLUS the fact that I'm putting modern wheels, brakes and suspension on my bike which will open the door wide open for gearing options. I have my grounds covered for what I want to do.
BUT for all you Nay Sayers, if you don't think I can hit 200mph, then what is your honest educated opinion of what speed I can achieve? :?
Also, I should have my rule book any day next week. :-D
Scottie
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Scottie,
You haven't had any real nay-saying. A real nay-sayer says something like:
.
Jonny, I seem to remember a bet we have that when your car runs 250 I will tattoo your logo on my body in the area hidden by my wallet pocket.
I feel comfortable that I will remain inkless.
DW
:cheers:
Mike
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I feel a fund raiser coming on the MPH lotto instead of the HP dyno Lotto :-D
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The fellow with the silver trident proved this year that a NA British push rod motor can do 200 mph. There is reason to believe the Enfield twin, with some work such as pressure enhancement and fuel, can produce the power of that NA triple. That, combined with very, very, good streamlining, is what will do it. It will not happen overnight or without a lot of effort and money, but it can be done.
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There is a world of difference between a late model 1960's BSA/Triumph Triple and a 1959 Enfield twin cylinder I have done some work on these Enfield engines in the past, it would need something better then a stock crankshaft........and then I don't think the crankcases would hold together........Fuel injection and a blower will give you some horsepower.....BUT the whole plot has to stay together for 2 runs for a record......NO WAY, get real.......
If it hold together (and it will not) maybe 150mph.........like Stan said you got it all sorted out.....be sure to post your build here so we can all learn something................even at 77 years old and over 60 years of racing M/C's and sidecars I am always open to learn from a 35 year old expert. (and dreamer).....................................................
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From another forum:
"My Bonneville pictures.
This picture from 1962 was sent to me by an old racer from Southern California who worked for Cooper Motors, the So-Cal Royal Enfield distributor.
They were there to support Jimmy Enz's effort at attaining a record with a Royal Enfield.
I don't know if Jimmy set any records, but he passed away in the mid-60's, and his bikes were acquired by Don Sliger, who was (I think) Mr. Enz's mechanic.
Don set several records, one at 160 mph with a 750 Interceptor, and a record set in 1970 for the fastest non-faired motorcycle, which stood for many years using a twin-engined Interceptor, at 205 mph.
Of particular note in this picture, which features Jimmy Enz's bike and the wife of the guy who sent me the picture (he might actually be on ADV rider, he'd be using the name "Bletz"), is the recognisable shape behind them.
That's right, Burt Munro was sharing pit space with Jimmy Enz, probably because Cooper Motors was helping support both racer's efforts."
Tom G.
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BUT for all you Nay Sayers, if you don't think I can hit 200mph, then what is your honest educated opinion of what speed I can achieve? :?
Scottie
Scottie, I don't think you'll find any nay sayers here. What you will find is a huge amount of salt racing experience and that experience will give you an honest (but educated) opinion. No one here can say with hand on heart that you won't hit 200. But the cumulative years of experience will tell you that what you are attempting is akin to winning the lottery. I can't remember reading if this will be your first visit to the salt or not. If it is I would suggest that you set the bar at maybe 150. I'll wish you the best of luck with your project and I'd be delighted were you to top 200.
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Hey, I am going to tell you what the other posting here apparently are to shy to tell you....There is NO way you can get that Enfield to go 200mph.................Sorry, but that is a fact............
So, it's a fact because it hasn't happened yet? There is a clear history of guys coming VERY close with NA motors.
..........even at 77 years old and over 60 years of racing M/C's and sidecars I am always open to learn from a 35 year old expert. (and dreamer).....................................................
OK...... Now I never claimed to be an expert of ANY kind. In fact, you just need to read my avatar and it says right there "New To LSR But Not Going Fast". No, I've never been to the salt flats, but, I didn't just start turning wrenches last week either. No, I haven't done 200mph on a motorcycle, but this also isn't my first bike and just figured out what the air screw is. But here is what I have done: I've been riding and wrenching on motorcycles since I was 13 and haven't ever stopped. I'm not an expert at High Performance automotive, but I know enough to know what is feasible and what is not. And while not an expert at performance, I can take a rust-bucket-pile-shit-and-bolts car, spends hundreds of hours on it, and make it look better than when the car came out of the show room. Sure, I haven't done 200mph, but I did redline a 2004 ZX6RR at 165mph. I also owned a 1975 Formula 350 Firebird that was built for Pro Tour that would run 125mph all day long in the twisties without once chirping the tires.
I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, but here's how I see things. NO ONE has ever attempted what I am trying to accomplish. And for ANYONE to say flat out "NO, you can't do it" or "NO, it can't be done" or "You're going to blow it up" is a Nay Sayer. I'm all for constructive criticism, but when someone starts getting defensive over their negative opinions about someone else's dreams and aspirations to the point where they start coming off as offensive..... Well, that's just an asshole move in my book. And even if your view/opinion is legitimate, at that point I'm not going to listen to you anymore based off of the sheer principle that you come across as an asshole. If you want share your opinions and experience, COOL! If you want to tell people that they're wasting their time, then why are YOU wasting YOUR time reading a topic that you obviously disagree with? :?
One more thing you don't know about me is that I am driven and passionate about everything I do. I would rather take this old Enfield, boost it, and grenade the motor sending the pistons all the way into the Indian ocean and pieces of crank shrapnel into my legs than to build some effing Jap bike to hit 300mph. I'm not like the rest of the world. I hum my own tune and dance to my own music. I wear greasy clothes into the holiest of places. I "DO" what people tell me "I CAN'T". Because, IF I AM SUCCESSFUL with this build (which I will be whether you believe it or not) I get the honor of telling EVERYONE who doubted me "You said it couldn't be done. And I did it before the whole world. And I don't even want an apology. I'm content enough with proving you wrong."
And besides, I thought racers were supposed to be encouraging, supportive and respectful towards each other. I must say I'm a little disappointed. :-(
Thank you to everyone that has been insightful and enlightening with your words of experience and encouragement.
Scottie
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Scottie
Don't get stirred up over an opinion here... everyone has one and everyone can express theirs... it is an open forum of racers, past, present and future... as well as spectators.
Most of us are in this for the long term... out first record with the lakester was around 137... can't remember because it was about 29 years ago... the point... we all wanted to be in the 200MPH Club, but no one including us thought it would ever happen with normally aspirated motors... fast forward... we have 4 club members with normally aspirated motors all under 1.5 liters. So don't worry what folks think of your dream, just do it, if you don't make the first year, just keep at it...
:cheers:
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There is always more joy in the journey than the destination when you try things like this....
35 years old,,,, Oh, you have the time to take on whatever you wish to try to do.....
Robert
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I'm not stirred up, I just wanted to voice my opinion as well. As they say "haters gonna hate" that doesn't hurt my feelings. I just find it disrespectful that anyone would tell another aspiring racer basically that your whole build idea is garbage and you won't succeed. That's all.
Scottie
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What ever happened to that guy from Las Vegas, you know, from years ago, what's his name, that couldn't be deterred?
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I remember him well enough to know that he was a drag racer of some personally-implied success, but don't remember his name. I think it might have been "Loser" or "Dumbf**k" or something like that. Anyone else remember him?
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I remember him well enough to know that he was a drag racer of some personally-implied success, but don't remember his name. I think it might have been "Loser" or "Dumbf**k" or something like that. Anyone else remember him?
Yeah! I remember him! He was best friend with Jerk Mehoff!
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Super Kaz!
I knew I had it filed somewhere -- I just had to keep opening the little drawers in my head until I found it. Did he move north?
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. I just find it disrespectful that anyone would tell another aspiring racer basically that your whole build idea is garbage and you won't succeed. That's all. Scottie
Just because you didn't like the ending of his post don't look past the valuable information that was in it? Such as the crank and cases part. Might be areas that you have or haven't come up with a solution for.
Good luck with your build,
Sum
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What ever happened to that guy from Las Vegas, you know, from years ago, what's his name, that couldn't be deterred?
I think that was Super Kaz. He's different in that he was always looking for someone else to pay for his racing because he felt he'd paid his dues by going to drag racing school.
Pete
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Yeah, that's it -- Super Kaz. I was close, though -- do I get partial credit for that much? I looked it up and it's been nearly 3 years since he logged on here - and then only three times. As I remember he wasn't enjoyed the conversations with us so dropped out for a good while - then came back to "test the waters" and once again decided that this isn't/wasn't the place for him. Ah, well, you can lead a horse to water but you can also lead him to food and the stable. :evil: :cheers: :cheers:
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It really hurts me that I made Scottie cry...with this in mind I have always been a great believer to put your money where you mouth is.......SO I will give Scottie $200.00 when he set a 2 WAY record in one of the future races at the annual BUB event.....I am good for the money as most of you know I have donated many thousands of dollars to the LSR sidecars in past years BUB events. He has to do it between 2014 and 2019 (due to the fact that at 77 years old my time is somewhat limited) plus he has to use a stock (with mods. OK) Enfield frame, one engine,
any fuel he feel that will work for him, fuel injection, blowers are OK. Hey, Scottie how is that for motivation....good luck and go for it.........................................................Love...B.B..
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Scottie, believe Bob when he says he'll offer his kind of encouragement and support. He, like most of us, really do want to see you succeed in fulfilling your goals and dreams. Best wishes - and enjoy the fun. :-D
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It really hurts me that I made Scottie cry...with this in mind I have always been a great believer to put your money where you mouth is.......SO I will give Scottie $200.00 when he set a 2 WAY record in one of the future races at the annual BUB event.....I am good for the money as most of you know I have donated many thousands of dollars to the LSR sidecars in past years BUB events. He has to do it between 2014 and 2019 (due to the fact that at 77 years old my time is somewhat limited) plus he has to use a stock (with mods. OK) Enfield frame, one engine,
any fuel he feel that will work for him, fuel injection, blowers are OK. Hey, Scottie how is that for motivation....good luck and go for it.........................................................Love...B.B..
And the plus side is you only have to set a record at Bubs... :cheers:
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..And the plus side is you only have to set a record at Bubs... :cheers:
So I'm bored and need to try and figure out the bike classes again so I assigned myself the job of trying to find out which records would be applicable. Here is what I came up with for current BUB records, but would be very surprise if this is correct :?
(750cc)
(no streamlining---gas and fuel)
M-PG.........159.903...........Mellor, T................Triumph......2008
M-PF..........130.369..........Azquith, B..............BMW...........2008
(some streamlining---gas and fuel)
MPS-PG......180.317..........Mellor, T.................Triumph......2008
MPS-PF......146.351..........Hooper, S...............Velocette....2011
Is that all the current pushrod records that would apply? I ruled out production (P) and special construct (A) since I felt they didn't apply to the build plans.
I couldn't find and blown gar/fuel record that I felt would apply:
M-PBG
M-PBF
MPS-PBG
MPS-PGF
And I didn't see any 'classic records' . Is that right are they all open.
If all of those records are open at BUB then the $200 should be easy picking 8-), just spend some thousands in bucks and man-hours and you would have it :-).
Their seems to be SCTA records in all the classes, but some seem very doable (easy for me to say):
(750cc)
M-PG......137.872
M-PF.......138.491
M-PBG....129.134
M-PBF.....129.937
MPS-PG......151.419
MPS-PF......150.019
MPS-PBG....136.997
MPS-PBF.....158.462
Sum
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I'm sorry if I came across butt hurt. LOL I'm sure we can all agree that NONE of us knows what is going to happen for sure with this build, though we each clearly have our own speculations.
Bob, I appreciate that offer, it's a bit unexpected, but appreciated. I'll keep it in mind to put a little extra fire under my arse while I'm building this beast. And I tell you what, record or not, and assuming my bike doesn't explode like a hydrogen bomb sending me into the afterlife :-o I'll buy you a beer or three and be happy to hear some of your racing stories.
:cheers:
Scottie
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Scottie, a fellow cannot tell another what to do, but one can say what they do and why. My first goal was to go 100 mph. Then, I took all I learned after doing that and aimed for 110 mph. Next, it was aiming for 120 mph, etc. There is a reason for doing this. Every step is built on the previously gained knowledge. Now I am trying to go 150 and I have eight years of experience to draw on. It is much safer this way. Do not get discouraged.
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Sum, those Mellor and Hooper records are really impressive. There are none of us "pushrod people" on the same page with that Triumph. I do think I have as much power in my 680cc, but my engine width, bike width, and insufficient aero development will never compete at that level.
In the SCTA records, Rossevelt's 158 plus Blown record was a really good result, two years ago. That was a special day, to say hello, again, (after 42 years) and find ourselves side-by-side in impound....right where we stood all those years ago.
Scottie, my little note is also for your consideration.... that you too will find the "getting of records" becomes less a challenge of "beating some guy", and more the challenge of establishing a "good record, worthy of your effort". You will find that aspect much more addictive than you ever imagined. You will know its happened to you, the day you drive right past impound after your first pass on an Open record.
Four decades ago, a young guy from your area (Longmont) went to Bonneville with high hopes and some pretty big plans. Fate smiled on him for two respectable records, but the salt gave him a big taste of reality. Life got in the way for over 25 years, but what I learned there in 1969 has lasted a lifetime.
I had a lot of good advice from some really good folks, and some of the best was "dont make an Open record your first record". After four days of struggle to finally put 20 mph onto an existing record, I felt it fair to take an Open record later in the week. It teaches you something extra, to chase an existing record.
The choice of a Pushrod class bike means you (we) have chosen a difficult path, indeed. We will never be recognized in that elite of ultra-high speed record holders, absolutely because we have chosen this difficult path. Everything we do is an experiment, and we quickly learn that we must do our own development after the "experts" discover how far up the learning curve keeps climbing.
And so, as they say, welcome to this misery. Just like all of us....steel yourself to be humbled when occasionally it comes your turn to "watch the devil dance on the salt". No need to worry about that, because it never ends....but you will never regret a minute of it.
JimL
PS: Food for thought, perhaps; there was really only one chance to be the "worlds fastest Indian", but somebody else has already done that. Any other "worlds fastest...." doesnt have the same ring to it.
And like they say, "You never get a second chance to be first". Somehow, "worlds second worlds fastest Indian" doesnt sound that cool.
Sooo...start entertaining us in the Build Diaries with pics, and progress, and goofs, and smart questions, and dumb questions. We all take our turn at it, thats half the fun of this hobby, you know? :-)
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As JimL says post your build and ask questions. I mentioned on another thread that I am putting a blower on my Weslake. Jim passed on some invaluable information and tips. Things I hadn't thought about and without his info probably would't have thought about and would have had a frustrating SpeedWeelk next year. Again Jim. Thank you.
And as Jim say prepare to be humbled on occasions. Bonneville over the past seven years has been kind to me. But this year she dished out some humble pie. A record I planned to kill by at least 10 mph on the first day took the best part of the week to up it by .511 mph.
As I posted earlier there is a wealth of information here. Some of it may not be what you want to hear but all of it will be true. Take advantage of it. Its free.
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Sooooo......Scottie,
All you have to do is rig up a supercharger or turbocharger on the old Indian, take it to BUB Speed Trials, and you will set a record because there are no records in the supercharged 750 "M" classes (or the Classic classes, either). Bob will pay you $200, which will partially defray the $5-10K or more that you will have to invest to get there! It will be a fun ride. And, hey, nobody ever offered me even a plug nickel to set a record on the BSA. I did it anyway.
Tom
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Alright. So one last thing about the crank, and then time to move on until I need to address it again. So, everyone knows the "stories" of these Enfield twins having weak bottom ends. I have been scouring the web for quite some time trying to find every bit of information I can about the 700cc twin motors. I have to be honest, there isn't hardly ANYTHING out there stating these cranks have a tendency to grenade. As I mentioned before, the connecting rods were garbage, and it seems like (from what I can find) about 50% of catastrophic failures were caused by throwing a rod, the other other 50% of catastrophic failures were caused by piston seize from over heating the motor by cranking at too high of RPMs for too long with the cast iron cylinders. I've spent the last hour on Google searching for the likes of "700 twin Royal Enfield Blown Motor". You know what I found? A whole bunch of pics of REALLY nice bikes, a few pics of some hot girls on some nice bikes, and a few pics of MY '58 TRAILBLAZER HEADS AND GASKETS when I blew them out in the spring time. There is basically nothing, and I mean NOTHING out there about these cranks being a POS. The only information I can find is this:
After the German surrender in 1945, the Enfield Cycle Company resumed production of the pre-war G and J series civilian models alongside a modified version of the “Flea”. By 1947 the 500cc Model J was back in production, fitted with new hydraulic damping telescopic forks as opposed to the old style girder forks. These were basic “ride-to-work” models which proved popular in a world hungry for inexpensive transport: a large number of surplus military machines were also purchased and reconditioned by the factory. In 1948 a groundbreaking development in the form of rear suspension springing was developed, initially for competition model “trials” models (modern enduro type machines). This was released in 1949 on the first new production models; a 350cc OHV Bullet with a sportier alloy head, swing arm frame and a 500cc twin: Enfield’s 25bhp answer to the Triumph Speed Twin. This machine was the forerunner of a range of Royal Enfield Meteors, Super Meteors and Constellations. Offering good performance at modest cost, these machines sold well at the time despite an unremarkable reputation. The 700cc Royal Enfield Constellation Twin released in 1959 has been described as the first Superbike.
In the late 1950s and early 1960s Royal Enfield produced a number of 250cc machines, the most popular of which was the 248cc pushrod OHV single cylinder Crusader. On the larger displacement end of their line, the first Interceptor was introduced in 1960: a highly tuned version of the company’s 692cc vertical twin intended for export to the USA and Canada. All these engines had the prefix letters “VAX” and are often referred as “VAX Interceptors”. Featuring twin carburetors, a factory lightened and balanced crankshaft, hot “R” cams, Lucas racing magneto and a few other modifications compared to road going models, the highly tuned engines demanded constant maintenance and many ended with catastrophic damages to the bottom end. Only a handful of these bikes survived which makes them one of rarest post-war Royal Enfield models.
Nowhere does it ever say it was the crank itself that failed. Don't get me wrong, I know this crank isn't invincible, but all my research points towards rod failure, NOT crank failure.
The following information is directly from my Factory Repair Manual:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/ConstellationEngineTechSheet_zps4844f571.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/ConstellationEngineTechSheet_zps4844f571.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/CrankshaftSpecs_zps16a6f5c8.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/CrankshaftSpecs_zps16a6f5c8.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/ConnectingRodSpecs_zps1fc667b8.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/ConnectingRodSpecs_zps1fc667b8.jpg.html)
Here are the rods and pistons I now plan on using available from Hitchcock's:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/Rods_zps0e7ebb53.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/Rods_zps0e7ebb53.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/Rod1_zpsa81b2302.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/Rod1_zpsa81b2302.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/Piston2_zpsb76c9e48.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/Piston2_zpsb76c9e48.jpg.html)
Scottie
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Great looking con-rods....I wish we could have had those back in the 1960's when we used the "Cornfield" (Enfield) engine in our road racing sidecars................The stock "Mud rods" would live up to 6500RPM.(maybe)
I have owned and sold a Enfield engine Rickman frame example ......will say it was a very nice street bike.......faster then most Triumph and BSA models of the time..................You might want to check with John Noonan regarding
pistons he represents a outstanding German company that will make you any kind of piston....just give them the specs. and they are through John a realistic price..............I should note that we had some problems with the gear-box road racing....However, for LSR this should not be a problem...........
.
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bak189 --
You meant a record over 200, right?
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What ever happened to that guy from Las Vegas, you know, from years ago, what's his name, that couldn't be deterred?
Stan,
You talking about this guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TywnyPVOx2c
Tom G.
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If he applied the energy he expends on looking for help on working on his own program he'd probably have a record or two by now! :roll: :roll: :roll:
Pete
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What ever happened to that guy from Las Vegas, you know, from years ago, what's his name, that couldn't be deterred?
Stan,
You talking about this guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TywnyPVOx2c
Tom G.
That was not pleasant to watch. :-P
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Ouch! That's a few minutes of my life gone forever.
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lost and gone forever :x
:cheers:
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That dude needs to change his name to Super Klown because he is an a$$ clown for sure! :-D
And why does he think he's a bad ass? The only time he can show is 11.57 during a test n tune? I have friends with pro street cars running that fast. And he can't even break 10 seconds on a full drag bike? I think you nailed it Slim with "loser".
Scottie
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Scottie, on the subject of your Enfield crankshaft...
Regardless of the reputation of the crankshaft in general, that rascal is pretty old and it is a good idea to have it checked for cracks by an expert. The book "The Step-by-Step Guide to Engine Blueprinting" by Rick Vogelin ISBN-13 978-1-884089-26-8 is in print. It has a section on crankshafts with some good tips. There is plenty you can do to help your crank to live longer.
A good procedure is to run your engine in a fairly mild NA tune at first and then to tear it down the winter after your first race. Check it out really good and fix any problems. Then, up your tune a bit, run it another year, tear it down, and look it over.
Another good practice is to have a machinist measure your journals, etc. before everything is put together. A good thing is to know what clearances you are running so you will know what is working or not.
A common mistake is to run too tight of clearances between the bearing shells and the journals. Hitchcocks should be able to give you some advice on this. My Triumph is set up with clearances halfway between "as new" and the wear limit, as an example.
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Scottie; before you order those 'Hitchcocks' rods you might want to contact R&R in Illinois. http://www.rrconnectingrods.com/
Probably save yourself some dough over importing UK parts.
We're using R&R rods in our BSA:
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s189/brizccd/Bonneville%20beezer/Rods_zpsc114298e.jpg)
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Using them in our Triumph too.
Peter
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Scottie,
Lots of engine calculators on the net. This one suggests maximum RPM. It basically just divides 24,000 (or 30000 for highest performance parts) by your stroke length in inches to get piston speed. It suggests that with a nodular iron crank, high performance rods and forged pistons, you should limit your pistons speeds to 4000 fpm. With your stroke of 90mm, it suggests a maximum RPM of 6800. If you can get a forged crankshaft and upgrade everything to about NASCAR quality, you might get to 8500 RPM. I have a 90mm stroke in my road race BSA (and I will be running a similar crank in my 2014 LSR bike) and I safely run it at 7200. However, I have a steel 5 piece crankshaft, which is probably stronger than a nodular iron one, and I have 3 main bearings on a single cylinder motor. I did blow one of these up at around 8000 - - expensive pile of scrap metal.
http://thefirstgensite.com/code/maxrpm.htm
Tom
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Excellent! Thanks for the tips and advice! I'll give R&R a call here in the near future and see what they have to say.
Scottie
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Bak also mentioned John Noonan at Wossner America, he is a landspeed scooter racer and not to bad of a guy to talk to about the technical aspects of bike motors. He can get custom pistons and rods made and at fairly reasonable prices for the landspeed community. He is a member here, you might send him a note.
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Excellent! Thanks for the tips and advice!
Scottie
Like I told you Scottie, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here. They may not always tell you what you want to hear but they will tell you what you need to know.
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Excellent! Thanks for the tips and advice!
Scottie
Like I told you Scottie, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here. They may not always tell you what you want to hear but they will tell you what you need to know.
That's exactly why I joined this forum, to fill in the gaps of the unknown!
Scottie
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Koncretekid:
Lots of engine calculators on the net. This one suggests maximum RPM. It basically just divides 24,000 (or 30000 for highest performance parts) by your stroke length in inches to get piston speed. It suggests that with a nodular iron crank, high performance rods and forged pistons, you should limit your pistons speeds to 4000 fpm.
http://thefirstgensite.com/code/maxrpm.htm
Wonder if the calcs on that site ONLY relate to the cars talked about herein...
If not, my engine should have exploded everytime I used it, street or race use, in the last 30 years... It suggest max 4600rpm, I have restricted meself to max 5500rpm on the salt... Used a lot more on the road in flashes.
Scottie, it's fine to read up to a point, but don't overdo it...
Patrick
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Koncretekid:
Lots of engine calculators on the net. This one suggests maximum RPM. It basically just divides 24,000 (or 30000 for highest performance parts) by your stroke length in inches to get piston speed. It suggests that with a nodular iron crank, high performance rods and forged pistons, you should limit your pistons speeds to 4000 fpm.
http://thefirstgensite.com/code/maxrpm.htm
Wonder if the calcs on that site ONLY relate to the cars talked about herein...
If not, my engine should have exploded everytime I used it, street or race use, in the last 30 years... It suggest max 4600rpm, I have restricted meself to max 5500rpm on the salt... Used a lot more on the road in flashes.
Scottie, it's fine to read up to a point, but don't overdo it...
Patrick
Are you confusing rpm and fpm? If I plug his 90 mm (3.54 inch) stroke into the calculator and it gives 5900 rpm for stock, 6900 for the "forged or nodular iron crankshaft, shot peened connecting rods, forged pistons" and 8500 for the " forged crankshaft, high strength alloy rods, high strength alloy pistons".
Of course I agree that the formula is open to quite a bit of interpretation on parts used and such. The Atlas 2900 I recently bought for the lakester is rev limited in the stock truck to 6000 and according to the calculator with stock parts the rev limit should be about 5250 with the 4 inch stroke and 7500 for the best parts yet I'm aware of some that are running the engine over 10,000 but that is at the drag strip not land speed racing. I plan on about 7500 for my build,
Sum
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Hi Sumner,
No!!! my stroke, H-D 900 KHK, is 4"9/16...
With std gear on the street it's OK for 6000rpm... so about 4500fpm for std cast pistons. They don't blow...
Mind you, the cast iron crank did suffer a bit last August 8-) so changing it for a forged steel one soon!!!
Patrick
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Hi Sumner,
No!!! my stroke, H-D 900 KHK, is 4"9/16...
With std gear on the street it's OK for 6000rpm... so about 4500fpm for std cast pistons. They don't blow...
Mind you, the cast iron crank did suffer a bit last August 8-) so changing it for a forged steel one soon!!!
Patrick
Ok sorry about that, didn't know you were talking about your bike's stroke but his. Enjoy the new crank,
Sum
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Any suggestions for clear coat, waxes or specialty coatings for getting slippery?
Scottie
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Any suggestions for clear coat, waxes or specialty coatings for getting slippery?
Scottie
I think you've got a lot to do before worrying about wax!! :-D
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Any suggestions for clear coat, waxes or specialty coatings for getting slippery?
Scottie
I think you've got a lot to do before worrying about wax!! :-D
I can't get anything done until after the holidays. I'm just trying make conversion. :lol:
Scottie
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I finally got my rule book last week right before Christmas. After having a look thru the different rules and different class records, I have a slight change of heart on the build. One problem I was able to diagnose with common sense was that I'm going to have a hard time kicking my bike over with a full LSR fairing covering my kick starter. Second thing I noticed was in the record book after realizing maybe I shouldn't put a fairing on the bike right away. Looking at the book, the record for 750cc M-PBF is only 129.953mph and hasn't been touched in quite a few years. I am very confident that I can make that record my bitch. I think going this route is not only going to save me a few thousand dollars off the initial build, but I think 130mph should be easily obtainable with how I plan on building this motor. From what I can find from pictures, it looks like most guys in the "M" class are building their bikes to lay as flat as possible across the top of the bike, keeping the foot pegs within a legal distance ahead of the rear axle and clip on bars mounted really low on the forks?
Scottie
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Hi, Happy end of year to you all...
Scottie, I thought you were looking at an NA record...
M-PBF is a supercharged record.
The M-PF record is at 138 and a bit.
Patrick
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S J
Welcome to the rule book--you will have a big advantage of us Sr. types---you should be able to remember the classes better
but I bet you will have to write them down and spell them out just like us---lol
Read the whole book several times and the bike classes that you are thinking about dozens of times---this will serve you well before its over other wise you may not be the first guy that shows up to run on one record only to find you didn't build your bike so that it meets the rules for that class.
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Hi, Happy end of year to you all...
Scottie, I thought you were looking at an NA record...
M-PBF is a supercharged record.
The M-PF record is at 138 and a bit.
Patrick
I was when I thought my bike qualified as vintage, but it is in fact a classic and therefor I can build how I originally wanted to with EFI and a turbo.
Scottie
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It may still qualify as vintage if you can make a strong argument that no significant (and positive = conferring an advantage) changes were made to the engine between pre-1956 (last automatically legal date) and your actual date of manufacture. This is going to look like a legal brief, with exhibits, affidavits etc.
I'd be looking at part numbers, engineering comments, casting dates, and road tests made during the period. Statements from the authors are preferred over references to their work, etc. A 1959 factory parts manual which contains notations such as "Cylinder head, left..... 1952-*" may prove useful.
Why try to make vintage?
Because the engines in OHV pushrod are far more evolved, and have more recent race development.
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There was a change over in '55 so that's not possible.
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Scotty, on the subject of cast pistons. There is a lot of variability in cast pistons. Some are pretty flaky and others, particularly the hypereutectic ones, are stronger. The piston manufacturer should be able to give you info about their piston's abilities. If not, it is best to use another brand. Turbo use pretty much eliminates any type of cast piston as an option. You will need the forged ones.
My experience with cast pistons at higher piston speeds is to periodically inspect them for cracks. Use high magnification and look at the outside of the skirt where there are internal section changes. Also, look for cracks at the gudgeon pin bosses and the skirt edges.
One thing I did was to also to look at the bore and rings. Often those were in serviceable condition. In these cases I would simply swap the pistons and use the existing rings and bores without honing.
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HI SCOTT
BOY MY BRITISH IRON LOVING FRIEND, TRUST ME , YOU HAVE CHOSEN OFF A BOAT LOAD :-o
MAD MAX
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Scottie fits right in with the rest of us. A perfectly normal fellow.
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lol
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HI SCOTT
Its me again, this time with a few things you may find of interest. The biggest engineering feet accomplished with a British motorcycle WAS ACCOMPLISHED BY BRIAN CHAPMAN. He hung a supercharge on a 500cc VINCENT COMET , running a 90% nitro, the bike turned constant 158 MPH speeds in the 1/4 mile and lived. A fellow named DAVE MATSON has been going to the salt for 35 years his ride is a Big VINCENT running at times 120 cu in on nitro PS CLASS it is said to make over 300 HP , Daves best is his 225 mph record set years ago and is still in the record books. this is the fastest ever for a British made set on motor cycle. There has been only 5 British powered streamliners that exceeded 200 mph and I think 6 set ons, and only one of those had one engine, that was Dave. Could be wrong, but that's how I remember it , again the best of luck.
MAD MAX
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HI SCOTT
Had the fastest timing slip for side cars at the BUB meet twice, got the prize money one time, had a paper problem with the BUB power to be.
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Thanks for the info Mad Max! And what normal man wants to take the worlds most underrated motorcycleto the salt to break speed records? LOL It's actually the main reason why I'm doing this with an Enfield. Because no one else wants to. :-D
I'm in the process of tracking down a donor bike so I can start on the chassis. Hopefully I will get one this weekend.
Scottie
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HI SCOTT
Not a stranger to ENFIELDS, had them all , If you go to my web sight vincentstreamliner.com you will find setting in my den when I
lived in Grove Oklahoma The following restored ENFILDS, BULLET , CONSTILLION, METOR, CHIEF AND IN THE GARAGE A FURY. IF you start making horse power with the chief you will need a better clutch, and transmission, conceder short roding in the build. AGAIN THE BEST. LIVE YOUR DREAM SCOTT, this 75 year has, don't have a lot of money but I do have a lot of stories.
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I've been trying to look into the possibility of running a blower instead of a turbo and I am having one hell of a time trying to find something specific for smaller displacement bikes. Can anyone here toss me a bone and post some links that I can look into? Thanks!
Scottie
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Lars Nielsen, the Danish guy (Octane on this Forum), built his old bike with a driven blower. I'll see if I can find it and give you a link.
Here's one of them -- but not the one I had in mind: http://www.dlra.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1686&sid=38163703502fbd58d7acf42d9ccffc99
I'll try to find his one on lr.com. Ah, yes -- here it is:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5849.0.html
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Hi Scottie,
Mine's a blower as well... Japanese Ansin AMR500, as found on small japanese cars, sourced in Australia where they pop often enough on ebay...
500cc per rev, you can spin them a lot, mine safely geared for 11000rpm... Octave one on his Indian is an Ansin AMR300, 300cc per rev
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,8744.30.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,8744.30.html)
(http://www.harleykrxlrtt.com/images/amrg.jpg)
(http://www.harleykrxlrtt.com/images/guardkk.jpg)
Patrick
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Scottie, it is a good idea to look real close at what Briz is doing with his BSA. An item of interest is how he is using a frame with an open engine bay and mounting the motor and trans with plates. Sort of like a McCandless framed Norton. He can put a few different engine, primary, and trans combos in there if he wanted. This is a very good idea for a younger builder. It gives flexibility to go in different directions in the future without needing to build a new frame. The triangulation around the steering head is another good idea. Most older bike frames do not have it. It is a good idea for anyone wanting to go fast.
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I picked up an Aisin AMR300 recently. Strangely enough I found it in Sacramento. There are a couple of places in Oz that sell Aisins. Don't have the addresses to hand but I'll post them as soon as I can find them. Seems to me a better way to go than a turbo.
Patrick. I have to ask. In your photo the top mounting on the blower is not being used. Was it simply not there for the photo or are you mounting it somewhat differently? One other question. Do you run a bypass valve?
(http://imageshack.us/a/img89/4233/0jv4.jpg)
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Hi all, Hi Bill,
My blower is not fixed at all on the frame, it is part of the engine. Big vertical bracket bolts on the rear engine mount, that has 4 horizontal threads on top of the gearbox casting. The bracket is sandwitched between the Ansin main casting (gear side) and its outer cover, plus 6 longer screws.
(http://www.harleykrxlrtt.com/images/brian17.jpg)
(http://www.harleykrxlrtt.com/images/spaceraa.jpg)
Then one 1/2 thick alloy plate between crank drive and Ansin that act as as torque arm, it makes it impossible for the blower to go forward or backward. It required a bit of setting up, to start with, the belt had a tendency to "jump", but it did not took too long to mod a bit to suit. No problems since on the belt drive...
(http://www.harleykrxlrtt.com/images/bracketd.jpg)
I do not run a byepass valve. Some of you here warned me about the "slowness" of a pressure relief spring set up, so my main safety is a burst panel, mix of cardboard and pasticised alloy sheet, has burst a few times on blowbacks, so good enough... Get stressed very fast, we changed the panel at every run last year...
(http://www.harleykrxlrtt.com/images/burstplatec.jpg)
Bye for now, see you next year, I'm moding the bike like furious...
Patrick
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NeatSstuff, pay attention scotty , words can save you lots of money and give you free MPH on a timing slip. best MAD MAX
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Wow Patrick----I hope you can see your way clear to post more from time to time---this is so humbling---I will try not to complain about being out of room on my Ms Liberty any more :cheers:
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NeatSstuff, pay attention scotty , words can save you lots of money and give you free MPH on a timing slip. best MAD MAX
How true !! I'd also recommend that he subscribes to Bonneville Racing News and try and pick up back issues or some of the interviews that have gone into book form. The in-depth article on Stuart Hooper and his 171 mph 650cc Velocette-Based 650cc Single comes to mind as one.
Max I still remember Stainless taking me to your place in the snow and cold some winters back. I enjoyed that :-), and hope you are doing well,
Sum
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Thanks guys,
I'll start a new thread on improvements to me bike for this year, as to not crowd Scottie's thread...
Patrick
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Wow that's awesome stuff! I'm definitely going to look into that blower set up. Looks like you could use a carb or EFI?
Scottie
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sssautomotive.com.au can supply you with all the Aisins you could ever dream of.
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So I've been researching those Aisin AMR roots blowers and they are pretty bad ass! It appears from what I saw that the AMR500 to a 660cc Subaru motor, tho I'm not sure what model. Does anyone know anything about these guys? They are offering brand new AMR500s for $500.
http://www.kemotorsport.com/
Scottie
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For every $AU the price is only $.89US. That makes them even cheaper. It might offset some of the shipping. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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For every $AU the price is only $.89US. That makes them even cheaper. It might offset some of the shipping. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
Freaking A! :lol:
Need some words of wisdom from guys who have used these blowers or are familiar with them. My thoughts are to remove the distributor/magneto and have a custom shaft machined that would replace it that can drive the blower. Is this possible? A certain individual on the Enfield forum (who is building a RE single for speed trials in England) seems to think that running the blower off of the timing area will cause failure of the timing chain. Also, there is a concern about the speed of the gear there. The magnetos are listed as being "half speed" of the engine, but I'm not sure if that means at the mag itself or at the mag shaft. Regardless, I should still be able to compensate with pulley selection shouldn't I?
Scottie
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Hi Scottie,
I think you'll always be better driving a supercharger from the primary drive...
You need to spin it a lot faster than the engine to get the boost, probably as a minimum at 1.5 faster... So just imagine the tortion inertia on your crank as you shut the throttle and the charger still wants to spin if you drive it from the timing side... The crank might hold, but will your bearings hold?
Ansin driven from crank means reverse rotation, seems OK, mine does, and at 11.000rpm at top engine revs...
Patrick
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Photo of Don Sliger's RE single engined bike back in the day, Speed Week 1972.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6H91RrJDPtw/Uj8C6b4APwI/AAAAAAAAEq4/X9RlfArRjIo/s0/HP0027.jpg)
Patrick
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I'm going to be picking up my old '83 Suzuki GS550ESD this week and I'm going to be using the rear swing arm, wheel, brake and suspension from it. I'm going to keep the Enfield front end for now, but I'll be completely rebuilding the forks and installing the fork brace that mounts the 2 fork legs together for smoother operation. I'll also be installing an aftermarket steering damper per the recommendations of Hitchcock's. They also recommended running a flat tracker style front wheel (being that I don't need front brakes) to help relieve un-sprung fork weight.
I know that a person or 2 had mentioned earlier that I need to change the head angle for better high-speed control. I have never done this, but am perfectly capable of doing so, and I'm curious what degree angle you guys would recommend going with? Also, is there anything special of I need to keep in mind while doing this mod? Any recommendations on steering dampers is appreciated too. Thanks!
Scottie
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Scottie,
You would be wise to do a search on this site for "trail", which is the true measure of a bike's ability to maintain a straight line. Trail is the distance between a line drawn down to the ground thru your steering stem (not your forks), and a second line drawn vertically down thru your front axle. The other measurement you need is the set back of the steering tube behind the centerline of the fork tubes. Modern bikes use a rake angle (head angle) of around 25 degrees, but have less setback of the steering stem from the fork tube centerline. Older bikes used 30 degrees or more, but had more setback. 4" of trail or more are generally recommended for stability, but longer bikes may need more. I've heard the number 7% of you wheelbase but cannot confirm that that is the magic number. My bike uses 30 degrees of rake with only 1-5/8" of set back with a 72" wheelbase, which results in 4-1/8" of trail, which is about 6% of the wheelbase and works well so far (145 mph).
Steering dampers are a big question, as well. I've heard it said, set it as tight as possible, others say don't. If your steering geometry is good, and your components (forks, triple clamps, front axle clamps) are well designed and strong enough to prevent one one fork moving independently from the other, the steering damper will probably not even be needed, as the bike will have little or no tendency to get into a speed wobble. But if you do get into a wobble, then the steering damper is supposed to control it. Doesn't always work that way, especially if you hit a bump while accelerating at high speed. (Try putting the front wheel between your knees and try to move the handlebars. If you can twist them, your steering system is probably not strong enough. Try this with your old Indian, then try it on a modern bike in good condition with upside down forks. You will feel the difference.)
I should also mention that the strongest front end in the world will not make up for frame flexing nor swing arm nor rear axle flexing. Any weakness which could allow misalignment of the front and rear wheels is going to wreak havoc with handling. Just ask the boys who used to race the old Kawi triples!
Tom
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Between 35 & 40 degrees will work well.
Never known a bike with that much rake to get into a speed wobble.
No real disadvantage to lots of trail in a straightliner.
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Perfect! Thanks guys, that was the info I was looking for. Rough figures and terminology. I've only heard "rake" before and wasn't sure what to look up.
And about these Aisin AMR blowers....... KE Motorsport just recently changed their website and now have the AMR300 listed for "250cc-1000cc" and the AMR500 for "1000cc-1600cc". My motor should be VERY close to 742cc when I'm finished, and obviously I want some big boost down low. Am I better off overdriving the AMR300 or underdriving the AMR500? My gut tells me I should overdrive the 300, but I've never blown a bike before and am not familiar with these superchargers. Also any links to help get me informed on these blowers would be appreciated. I haven't had much luck finding useful information about them, just general stuff.
Scottie
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Scottie,
Go with the 500 as it will turn much slower for the same boost pressure and this is a big deal due to "fuel mixture heating" in a fast spinning roots blower...
I'm running an Aisin 300 on a 350cc pushrod twin and at 9 psi boost I'm having real charge heating issues that have to be addressed.
Drive the blower off the crank... It is taking about 5 hp from the crank to drive my blower at the current boost/rpm level. Imagine that load going quickly off-on when you shift gears....
Robert
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SJ you MOST likely be better of under driving the larger blower---it shouldn't heat the air up so much---cooler air = a happier eng.
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Hi,
No matter what size it is, a lobe type blower does not heat air since there's no compression within. The heat comes after from the air pressure increase in the plenum chamber since it pumps against closed inlet valves 3/4 of the time. Obviously, some of the plenum heat will then transfer to the charger...
When I researched mine, I saw plenty of guys using big blowers and running them slow, then moaning about the pulses and the lack of space on a bike to fit a big plenum to smooth things out...
Solution then did appear obvious to me, run a smaller charger = more rpm = more pulses = more dampening = more equal share per cylinder...
These Ansin are good for 12,000 rpm constantly. The blurb says 16,000 rpm for short blasts is OK. and that's on fuel injected cars when the Ansin just pumps air and does not get cooled further by evaporating A/F mixture.
Patrick
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Hi Patrick,
I agree about it is possible to have too large a blower that can have pulsing issues. However, a 500cc blower on a 750cc engine, when geared 1 to 1, will yield about 5 psi boost...
Sounds about right to me....
Those rpm numbers are for "new" blowers. Used units with wear and tear on them can have issues when spun up to very high speeds so be careful.
Robert
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Agreed with you, Baron, but 5psi won't get Scottie anywhere near his 200mph target ;-)
Patrick
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No matter what size it is, a lobe type blower does not heat air since there's no compression within. The heat comes after from the air pressure increase in the plenum chamber since it pumps against closed inlet valves 3/4 of the time. Obviously, some of the plenum heat will then transfer to the charger...
This is rather arguable Patrick!
A rootes type blower 'churns' the air quite a bit, some of it gets forced back thru the clearance between the meshing rotors. This does make some heat.
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OK, Briz, lets just say it's not as bad as a vane type blower that does compress air as it goes through!
Patrick
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I emailed KE Motorsport and he confirmed that I will need to run the AMR500 to achieve the numbers I am after. I'm thinking of going ahead and setting up this blower to push 10 psi of boost. A nice healthy dose of air without having to worry so much about breaking something. It should also get me pretty close to 12.5:1 dynamic ratio.
Scottie
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I thought I might just comment on supercharging/turbocharging and what it does to intake temperatures. The ideal gas law, PV=nRT, describes the relationship between pressure, volume and temperature. A special version of this equation generally applies to supercharging/turbocharging. It is: T2 = T1(P2/P1)^.286 .
This relationship tells us that a 100 deg F temperature rise is easily in the realm of intake temperature increase that is due only to the compression that takes place in the supercharger/turbocharger. At high boosts, the temperature rise is even more. A second source of temperature rise is due to the heating of air as it comes in contact with the blower itself. This is quite significant since turbochargers are hot. Temperature rise is one of the reasons intercoolers are used after the blower.
A similar process (temperature rise due to compression) takes place inside cylinders as the piston comes up, but in a much more pronounced way since the compressive forces are higher. This of course is the process that many diesels use for ignition.
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Dave, I have discussed that information with both my head guy and turbo guy and have a plan of attack to hook up an intercooler of some sort. Also after speaking with my head guy today I am going to be sending my crank to him and Mondello's to have it treated with plasma nitriding and have it machined and balanced. I still don't know much about this process but is what they use on Nascar cranks and also new Subaru STI cranks.
Scottie
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Boost does not change your compression ratio, static or dynamic.
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Did somebody say it did?
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Did somebody say it did?
They hinted at it in reply 156 above,
Sum
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I should have been more clear with my words.
........It should also get me pretty close to AN EQUIVALENT 12.5:1 dynamic ratio..........
Scottie
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I should have been more clear with my words.
........It should also get me pretty close to AN EQUIVALENT 12.5:1 dynamic ratio..........
Scottie
If you are referring to dynamic 'compression' ratio then like Panic said being boosted won't change that. Remember it is a 'ratio' that we are talking about not cylinder pressure or anything else. It is just a matter of where the ratio starts and the volume there, at the bottom of the stroke or somewhere up the stroke after the intake closes compared to the volume with the piston at TDC...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio)
Sum
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Another flaw in the comparison is that 12.5:1 DCR through boost does not share temperature change or knock sensitivity with 12.5:1 N/A.
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Those of you running an Aisin, did you install any kind of intercooler?
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I'm still in the early stages of installing my Aisin. There will be a long inlet tract from the blower to the head. I plan an intercooler along the line. But its still in the thinking stage. I may come up with something better than I have in mind.
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I can start out with 180 degrees water temp, and after a test run of 2 x 1/2 mile flogs and return with a cool engine, not registering on the temp gauge :?
Using methanol with a draw thru aisin setup seems to be fine without an intercooler :?
http://youtu.be/Gppco3aKYe0
Tiny
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As a rule,
No intercooler with methanol
Intercooler with gasoline
Patrick
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You really dont want an intercooler on a draw-thru setup. At all. With any fuel.
Its basically a bomb!
One backfire and BOOM!
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Page 11 everyone says I have to worry about air charge temps. Page 12 everyone is saying I don't need an intercooler? :?
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What they are trying to tell you is with a draw through--NO it is an air fuel bomb---with efi or blow through yes!!
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I do plan on running an aftermarket EFI system. Should I still stay away from an intercooler?
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I have done a little more reading and number crunching on blowers and there effect on intake air temperature. The increase in air temperatures bears out in practice as well as thermodynamically. Is it enough of an increase to warrant an intercooler? That's the beauty of all the experienced builders on this site. Based on your specific build and their experience, you can get a good idea.
On the topic of using methanol as a fuel. It will typically result in lower intake temperatures when compared to gasoline. Two of the experienced racers here have implied this. The properties of methanol vs gasoline bear this out. When fuel goes thru the carburetor or fuel injection it must change from liquid to gaseous state; evaporation. When this change of state happens thermal energy is absorbed. The amount absorbed is called the "latent heat of vaporization". This well established attribute is far higher for methanol than it is for gasoline meaning methanol absorbs more heat than gas when it evaporates. Generally, even with a blower the intake air temperature is lower with methanol than gasoline. There is a paper on methanol as fuel here: http://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf . If you add nitromethane to your methanol this and other things change.
One caution when using methanol is, a methanol fire is virtually invisible compared to a gasoline fire that you can see.
I have hear how bad using a blower with pull thru carbonation or fuel injection is. I think I understand why but would like to see if my explanation is correct. All the air after the carburetor or fuel injection now is mixed with fuel and is explosive. If we put a blower and intercooler after fuel mixing we have a considerable volume of pressurized air/fuel mix heading for the engine. A backfire would ignite this and possibly rupture something like the intercooler. Also while the blower wound down it would keep making air fuel mix, that is on fire.
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I do plan on running an aftermarket EFI system. Should I still stay away from an intercooler?
If the EFI throttle body is on the pressure side along with the injectors then run the intercooler between the blower and the throttle body. I looked at images....
https://www.google.com/search?q=Aisin+Model+AMR500&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=bRk&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=J1LhUqSdGJP7yAGk8oCYCQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1143&bih=668&dpr=0.9#imgdii=_ (https://www.google.com/search?q=Aisin+Model+AMR500&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=bRk&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=J1LhUqSdGJP7yAGk8oCYCQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1143&bih=668&dpr=0.9#imgdii=_)
and if this ....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v192/Kevin20/IMAG0126.jpg)
..... is it then I'd think doing the above would work fine. So where are your injectors going to be? I'm pretty much on the turbo bandwagon for B'ville but it looks like an interesting supercharger (I'd still go the turbo route myself though :-) ),
Sum
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Scottie,
Just remember, you don't have to build the next world's fastest Indian in one year. I started studying the supercharging thing, which led to the electronic fuel injection thing, which quickly led to "information overload". Maybe your 35 year old brain is quicker than mine, but the more I study these subjects, the less I seem to know!
I think the ultimate supercharged motor is going to be a blow thru system with EFI, an intercooler, and an engine management system like Megasquirt which can monitor and control the EFI. But I don't plan to jump in with both feet at once. If I can give you just a bit of advice (please don't think I'm trying to dissuade you), it would be to build the bike using the best components you can afford, set it up for Bonneville, take it to the flats with a cart load of spare parts, sprockets, and jets, and see what it will do. Bring a camera and take about a million pictures of other bikes, then set about planning the ultimate machine. This is basically what I have done, and now after 5 years, I'm almost ready to try EFI, then supercharging.
Tom
P.S. I will be in Lafayette, Colorado from March 15th until the end of May, so keep in touch and maybe I can come down and give you a hand.
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Some of the problems Iv'e had using a draw thru system include, borderline excessive vacuum between the blower and carb (20"), resulting in difficulty jetting correctly maintaining a clean transition from pilot, to needle jet.
Although I've had a few backfires with the BOV earning its keep (not good for the pulse rate) they usually occur during startup.
Don't expect to use the same carb jetting/carb that worked fine before adding the supercharger, blowers write their own tuning rules, 2 years, and I'm still learning.
I'm trying a wideband 02 gauge to help me get things right, but after several startup, run, test and tune rides, totaling 1 hr in total, the condensation methanol makes in the exhaust while the engine gets to operating temp has killed my sensor, even though I took every precaution to avoid this problem, which could be an on going expense if you use efi and methanol , but I feel this is the way to go.
Hey, its all FUN ! , 60 years young and still learning,,,,,
Tiny
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.....I'm trying a wideband 02 gauge to help me get things right, but after several startup, run, test and tune rides, totaling 1 hr in total, the condensation methanol makes in the exhaust while the engine gets to operating temp has killed my sensor, even though I took every precaution to avoid this problem, ...
We are using Innovate's....
(http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/2/innovate-3729.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-3729-Heat-Sink-Extender/dp/B000CO9MFI (http://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-3729-Heat-Sink-Extender/dp/B000CO9MFI)
....stand-off heatsinks with the stude with the turbo and they have worked well on gas. I assume you have them in the top of the pipe? You could maybe make a siphon standoff like Innovate's that had some sort of shut-off possibly. Warm the engine with it shut-off and then open it.
Hooley has tried the O2 sensors on his drag car running alcohol with mixed results, mostly negative I think but I don't think the sensors went bad necessarily. I'd have to talk to him or see if he reply's here but do know people use them with alcohol.
With EFI and such now available and supported I'd think I'd just bite the bullet and go with a blow-thru from the beginning. Draw thru seems simpler at first but as you've pointed out that isn't always the case when all is said and done,
Sum
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SJ Kon---kid is giving straight UP straight advise--pls heed it-- you need to make this a journey---it can be a LONG pleasant one or a short one. What he is trying to say you need to embrace the learning curve. B'ville is DIFFERENT and a lot of really smart folks have failed in their quest and a lot of "dumb" folks have earned a PHD in Salt Flat Racing and have the records to show for it.
The secrete is STUDY, study, Study, learn, learn,learn, When you do all of these, you will be able to walk up to most cars, trucks, or bikes out there and you will have a clue what the builder was trying to do,, a lot of us who some may think, hold phd's -- they see themselves as still in salt flat kindergarten
Kk is right --baby steps--- get the seat time build a good NA eng, get a good idea just how FAR you have to go---but as the old saying goes all GREAT Journeys begin with the first step---enjoy & savor this possible great journey you have undertaken
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Hi, I'm a bit confused now...
EFI, O2 sensors, the lot as found in modern cars, isn't that just so that you can run gasoline at the best level?
Since methanol is a lot more forgiving as for AF ratios, can't a single simple carb be the answer?
I must admit to really hating modern engines and their technology, lean, EPA and the reults, all this electronickery that's supposed to be better...
Better for the environment, I have no doubts, but better for racing, I have my doubts!!!
As for the learning curve and taking things easy and steady, it all depends how far away one lives from the Salt Flats... I'm coming from GB, I can't afford 10 years of steadyness before being in a position to beat my goals!!! So I went for broke at the 1st visit...
And as for supercharging completly screwing up the supposedly unmoveable AF ratios, I can vouch for that... My calcs were giving me .8 to 1 liter of methanol used per mn on the salt flats, 2.5 times gas usage, I'm now at 2 liters per mn and my main man, used to alky on his little Cooper racers here in GB, tells me we're still a touch on the lean side of things...
Patrick
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Don't be scared Patric, spend every spare moment researching,,,,
I've done without technology for 3 builds, gained a few records, lost a few more, up until this build . Iv'e been lucky, relying on the 'ol jetting + 2.2 + a tad,, then this happened
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t24/generatorshovel/one_zps04bc7ff4.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/generatorshovel/media/one_zps04bc7ff4.jpg.html)
So I went the 02 gauge route,,which tells me where I went wrong, and a heap of other stuff I'm yet to find the reason for, it also saved another piston hole by telling me this,,,,,
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa399/Blowncbr/shot_zps3336b1c8.jpg) (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/Blowncbr/media/shot_zps3336b1c8.jpg.html)
But it's up to me to find the reason why, but BEFORE the shyte hits the fan, not after.
Tiny
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(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa399/Blowncbr/shot_zps3336b1c8.jpg)[/URL]
But it's up to me to find the reason why, but BEFORE the shyte hits the fan, not after.
Tiny
If it was EFI, I would say fuel pressure drop across the rail. Carb'd, hmmmm? Leaking boost except on #1?
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....So I went the 02 gauge route,,which tells me where I went wrong, and a heap of other stuff I'm yet to find the reason for, it also saved another piston hole by telling me this........ Tiny
I agree, improving your data logging can possibly forgo traveling a very long expensive ways only to have something go wrong that might of been avoided with some data. We have data logged at least the a/f along with throttle, egt and some other things since the second year and I'm sure it has saved our butts, especially since we were running blown gas with a roots blower and no intercooler. Sure we still found ways to screw things up and would have to work long hours on the car, but no melted pistons or other parts.
Now with the turbo motor we log 16 items and I'm sure sooner or later we will have a major meltdown of some sort but I'd never build a car now, as long as the rules permitted, that there wasn't a lot of data logging on. It is hard to part with $1000 to $1500 to do this when it doesn't make big HP gains, but still it can help to make some and one avoided major engine failure more than pays for the equipment.
Coming all the way from overseas or even the expense of getting to the salt and running, I'd sure want to help the stars align the best I could :-),
Sum
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One can't argue with that. :cheers: :cheers:
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As for the learning curve and taking things easy and steady, it all depends how far away one lives from the Salt Flats... I'm coming from GB, I can't afford 10 years of steadyness before being in a position to beat my goals!!! So I went for broke at the 1st visit...
Patrick
Patrick, Scottie is only 35 years old and lives about 8 hours from the Flats! He's got a 30 year head start on us!
Tom
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You're not joking there, Kid, I really started way way late!!!
Just thinking, about data logging, I can see it's faster than in the old days, but, then, they had plug readings and that's what I have used so far as tuning aid... Remember, no electrickery anywhere on me bike apart from twin magnetos...
Patrick
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It worked for Bert!!! :cheers:
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It worked for Bert!!! :cheers:
Might have taken him more than a few trips to get the bike sorted but he found gratification while making the journeys. :evil: :-D
Ed
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Maybe he did so many trips cause of the gratification... :roll:
Patrick
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Thanks for all your input guys! :cheers:
I agree that data logging is crucial and vital for correct and optimal tuning. The EFI kit I'm looking at actually has a Bluetooth interface and I can data log on my smart phone. 8-) As far as boosting or not boosting here's the deal. I already have a N/A bike that is essentially the same bike that I'm building, my '58 Trailblazer. I already know what a well tuned naturally aspirated twin will do, and it's not enough for what I want to accomplish at the salt. Besides I have hundreds of hours invested into research for boosting this bike. I damn near gave every duck in a row and just need to start ordering parts. Why turn back now?!
Scottie
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Scottie, how about a few photos?.
:cheers: :cheers:
We're in a pic drought here man.
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I honestly have really done anything to it. Yet. :-D I should be picking up the donor bike tonight after work tonight. Ironically, it's one
Scottie of my old bikes, a '83 Suzuki GS550ESD. So hopefully I'll get some work done on the chassis this weekend
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No problem Scottie, We won't stop giving you the best advice we can. What are you going to use for throttle bodies and what engine management system? And what data logging system are you using?
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This is the EFI system I'm looking at.
http://www.ecotrons.com/products/400cc_to_800cc_engine_fuel_injection_kit/
Scottie
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If you're thinking of running alcohol make sure all the components are alcohol compatible. It's nasty stuff in a fuel system where all materials aren't compatible. At the same time it's a really easy fuel to run when the components are all correct. It can be very forgiving.
Pete
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This is the EFI system I'm looking at.
http://www.ecotrons.com/products/400cc_to_800cc_engine_fuel_injection_kit/
Scottie
They look like an interesting kit. I've priced buying the components separately on eBay, and you can't even get used systems for less. Make sure they know, as Peter Jack suggested, that you are planning to use Methanol, because the pump and injectors will have to pump twice as much fuel as well as being compatible with alcohol. Also make sure the O2 sensor is wide band and that they know that you're planning to supercharge. I'll be watching closely because I'd like to try something similar in the future.
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This is the time to figure out the horsepower you will need to get to your desired speed and the fuel consumption rate to support the horsepower. It will be more than a system designed for an 800cc gasoline motor.
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This is the time to figure out the horsepower you will need to get to your desired speed and the fuel consumption rate to support the horsepower. It will be more than a system designed for an 800cc gasoline motor.
Absolutely. I was planning on starting the fuel curve somewhere equivalent to a 850cc N/A motor. They indicate a 42mm TB is used for a factory DR650. I'm guessing I will want use the 50mm or 55mm TB. Possibly even the 60mm. Also, if the fuel injector is mounted in the TB, is there any advantage or problems with mounting the TB after the blower on the head? Or does the TB need to be on the inlet of the blower to properly atomize? Any input on this?
Scottie
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This is the time to figure out the horsepower you will need to get to your desired speed and the fuel consumption rate to support the horsepower. It will be more than a system designed for an 800cc gasoline motor.
Absolutely. I was planning on starting the fuel curve somewhere equivalent to a 850cc N/A motor. They indicate a 42mm TB is used for a factory DR650. I'm guessing I will want use the 50mm or 55mm TB. Possibly even the 60mm. Also, if the fuel injector is mounted in the TB, is there any advantage or problems with mounting the TB after the blower on the head? Or does the TB need to be on the inlet of the blower to properly atomize? Any input on this?
Scottie
You'd want the TB after the blower and after the intercooler as was mentioned above in your thread.
I realize some of the suggestions might seem negative but just trying to help. With that in mind this kit seems to actually have too much for the price so I wonder if it is too good to be true. I'm wondering if it is mainly for a na situation even though they talk about an optional higher boost level. If it uses a true wide-band O2 and a controller that is needed for one they are at least $150 just for that part of the deal.
You are going to want something that is very tunable. Will you have full control over the fuel mapping with this? What size injectors are you going to be able to use. The price is tempting but some other systems are going to also have really flexible data logging included with them and what maybe the most important a larger user base that will be there to help you. You can't hardly put a price on that.
I goggled the system some and couldn't find out a lot about it other than the manufacture's info and not much at all in using it in a blown situation. I'd want to have more info on all of that before becoming committed to this system.
Good luck with whatever you decide on,
Sum
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I don't personally have any experience with EFI or supercharging yet, but these are my thoughts on what I would do. In order to use an intercooler, I would mount the throttle body on the intake manifold on the head. The injector would work fine mounted in the TB. The beauty of the EFI (I think) is that it can respond to changes in intake compression and change the pulse width as needed to maintain the AFR over a wider range. The supercharger then only compresses air, which makes it safer. The compressed air can be cooled to increase efficiency without the danger of the fuel dropping out of suspension in the plenum. I also think you may be able to get away with the 42mm throttle body, or a little larger, because you are pressurizing the air supply so the smaller TB should work. I think you're going to have a hard time getting intake passages in the head to flow enough to justify a 50mm TB. Remember, only one cylinder draws at a time, so each cylinder is only 400cc. The DR650 is a single cylinder motor and takes larger gulps.
Hopefully somebody with experience on this subject will chime in.
P.S. I see Sum has chimed in while I was writing this, but I'll post it anyway.
Tom
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Did an excel sheet with the RE dimms, sommat like this for 7 to 1 static CR:
(http://www.harleykrxlrtt.com/images/recalca.jpg)
Gives you an idea of what the calcs are. Yellow line is 10psi boost, red line is max boost ratio for the Ansin, 1.8. Last line is methanol usage at theorical 6/1 weight ratio for the revs listed in column C, absolutly proven wrong on my bike so far :-D ...
Patrick
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The is some interesting reading here
http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm
Tiny
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Thanks Patrick! That is great! :cheers:
The is some interesting reading here
http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm
Tiny
I'll to read that info sometime today. Thanks!
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Picked up the donor bike over the weekend and started gutting it out. It's my old GS550ESD. It was caught in the floods we had let fall. Good news is that the new Koso digital speedo still works so I'll be able to use that on the Chief as it reads up to 224 mph. Hopefully be able to start mocking up the chassis this week.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/GS550GettingStripped_zps8dcf921a.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/GS550GettingStripped_zps8dcf921a.jpg.html)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF-TaJ5JV2A&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Scottie
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I finished stripping down the GS550 yesterday. The frame is now bare except for the motor which is only being held in buy 4 bolts, just need an extra set of hands to yank it out. Looks like the swingarm and wheel should switch right over to the Chief with minimum modifications. I haven't been able to compare the 2 side by side yet, but it looks like the width of the swingarms where the pivot bolt mounts to the frame are about the same width too. I'm pretty sure I can get it bolted right up with maybe a couple of bushings for the pivot point. I'll just need to weld in an upper shock mount to mount the mono shock in the center of the seat area. The best part of using this swingarm is that aside from the mounts being close to the same sizes, the GS swingarm is exactly 5" longer than the RE swingarm. The +10% wheel base rule gives me a MAX of a 6" stretch on the bike. The GS swingarm being 5" longer than factory should get me long enough to help stabilize for high speeds, but without breaking the rules. Or further more, not being so close to within the rules that the officials may question the legality of my build.
It will take a little more work to get some custom rear sets mounted nice and far back. They will be mounted up about 6.5-7" ahead of the rear wheel axle, which will move them back about 14" from the original foot peg location. I will also be mounting clip-on bars that will be mounted as far down on top of the lower triple tree as possible. This combination should allow my 6' tall body to lay out nice and flat on the bike with a real tight body tuck. This is important as I've decided to break my first few records without a fairing, so body positioning is going to be crucial for trying to cut through that salty air. :-)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/GS550ESDAfterFlood_zpsc2979ce0.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/GS550ESDAfterFlood_zpsc2979ce0.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/GS550GettingStripped_zpsb5718d4d.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/GS550GettingStripped_zpsb5718d4d.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/GS550Stripped_zps3ff8ec55.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/GS550Stripped_zps3ff8ec55.jpg.html)
I can't believe it! Seriously! :-D So I went back out and played in the garage for a little bit this afternoon to take some measurements of the swingarm. The factory RE swingarm is exactly 8 1/2" wide where the pivot bolt mounts to the frame. The Suzuki swingarm? 8 19/32"!!!! Not even an 1/8" wider than what is already there, practically a PERFECT fit! Also, not going to get the 5" stretch that I thought I was going to. It's just shy of a 4" stretch from axle to axle. Not quite as long as I was hoping, but 4" is better than what was there. The large bracket on the bottom of the swingarm is going to get removed. The set up had this super goofy triple hinge shock mount thing going on. Complicated and unnecessary weight, so I'll be mounting the shock to the bracket on TOP of the swingarm and the top of the shock will be mounted under the seat.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/GSSwingarm4_zps133b00cc.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/GSSwingarm4_zps133b00cc.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/GSSwingarm1_zpsc5b57f13.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/GSSwingarm1_zpsc5b57f13.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/GSSwingarm3_zpsb5be4ee5.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/GSSwingarm3_zpsb5be4ee5.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/GSSwingarm2_zpsc6aed830.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/GSSwingarm2_zpsc6aed830.jpg.html)
Scottie
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Too bad the RE motor won't fit in the GS frame (which would put you in A class). I just hate to see you cut up that beautiful Indian. Salt is going to eat it away.
Tom
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Oh! That is my '58 trailblazer in those pics, she's my rider. I was just using it for reference as the Chief chassis is identical. :-)
Scottie
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I sat down this morning and was played some gearing calculators. Basically, with 100hp at the block and a 3.14 final drive ratio I should be able to achieve 140mph at 6000 RPMs, and 160mph if I attempt to hit 7000 RPMs. Here are the different charts:
Factory OEM Gearing For The Chief
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/BonnevilleChiefCompleteGearingStock_zps034bb840.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/BonnevilleChiefCompleteGearingStock_zps034bb840.jpg.html)
21 Tooth Front/39 Tooth Rear 6000 RPMs
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/BonnevilleChiefCompleteGearing6000rpm_zpsd4f5eaa9.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/BonnevilleChiefCompleteGearing6000rpm_zpsd4f5eaa9.jpg.html)
21 Tooth Front/39 Tooth Rear 6500 RPMs
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/BonnevilleChiefCompleteGearing6500rpm_zps912cfd34.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/BonnevilleChiefCompleteGearing6500rpm_zps912cfd34.jpg.html)
21 Tooth Front/39 Tooth Rear 7000 RPMs
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/BonnevilleChiefCompleteGearing7000rpm_zpse3cfc95c.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/BonnevilleChiefCompleteGearing7000rpm_zpse3cfc95c.jpg.html)
Stock Gear Ratios
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/BonnevilleChiefCurrentGearing_zps97c7fac7.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/BonnevilleChiefCurrentGearing_zps97c7fac7.jpg.html)
Needed Gear Ratios
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/BonnevilleChiefGearingNeeded_zps7a51d89f.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/BonnevilleChiefGearingNeeded_zps7a51d89f.jpg.html)
Scottie
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These might also help you...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html#Four%20Speed%20Motorcycle (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html#Four%20Speed%20Motorcycle)
...they will show you rpm drop between any gear at any speed without having to re-enter data.
good luck,
Sum
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Sumner - I downloaded that spreadsheet when I first joined this forum and I can't get it to work.
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Sumner - I downloaded that spreadsheet when I first joined this forum and I can't get it to work.
If it won't let you input (is that the problem?) then save it under a different name and open the new one you saved. I have to do that on one computer but not the other for some reason. I use Open Office. Let me know if that doesn't fix the problem. Also which one are you trying to use? The Excel 4 speed motorcycle one?
Sumner
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Yes, it won't let me input/change any data. And yes the Excel 4 speed. I will try saving it under a different name when I get home tonight. Thanks.
Scottie
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Yes, it won't let me input/change any data. And yes the Excel 4 speed. I will try saving it under a different name when I get home tonight. Thanks.
Scottie
I was able to download that one onto a computer that didn't already have it last night and it worked after saving it. If that still doesn't work let me know and send me an e-mail address and I'll try attaching it to an e-mail for you,
Sumner
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Yes, it won't let me input/change any data. And yes the Excel 4 speed. I will try saving it under a different name when I get home tonight. Thanks.
Scottie
I was able to download that one onto a computer that didn't already have it last night and it worked after saving it. If that still doesn't work let me know and send me an e-mail address and I'll try attaching it to an e-mail for you,
Sumner
Ok thanks!
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Sumner - No luck with that spreadsheet. PM sent. :-)
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Sumner - No luck with that spreadsheet. PM sent. :-)
Sent one in an e-mail to you. Can anyone else load that one. I can but maybe it is for another reason,
Sum
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Sum,
I downloaded it and it works fine for me. I'm on a Mac, and I have M.S.Excel for Mac, 2008, version 12.1.5.
And it agrees with the one I wrote for myself (not knowing at that time that you had already designed one).
Tom
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I have a feeling it has something to do with my browser and anti-virus security settings. :-(
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Scottie,
Good to see that you are an early riser! Too bad about those Broncos :cry:.
Tom
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Yeah I'm usually out of bed by 5a. :-) And the Broncos blew it pretty bad on Sunday. It was painful to watch. :roll:
Sumner also emailed me a working version of the spreadsheet this morning. Thanks again! I'll try to play around with that tonight. Trying to get the suspension mocked up today while still looking like I'm working on cars. 8-)
Scottie
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Sum,
I downloaded it and it works fine for me. I'm on a Mac, and I have M.S.Excel for Mac, 2008, version 12.1.5.
And it agrees with the one I wrote for myself (not knowing at that time that you had already designed one).
Tom
Thanks that is good to know. Only problem is that I thought I designed it to specifically not work on those Apple things :evil:, being an ex-computer store owner that only sold those IBM compatible boxes :-).
If anyone is having any problems with any of the spreadsheets I've posted I'd like the feedback,
Sum
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I got the chassis loosely put together just to see where I am at and need a little advice. To mount the shock directly under the frame it will have to mount at the angle it is at in the first picture. Here's my thought, if you look at the second pic you can see where the top tube ends and goes into the seat mount area. I already planned on extending the seat area about 6" or 8" back, so my thought is to bring the shock back and make it more vertical and build a mounting bracket that will extend upward just behind where the top tube ends. This will put a big hump right in the middle of the original seat area. I could then just build frame work up around it and raise the seat height a bit. Suggestions? :?
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/ChiefRollingChassis2_zpsd5f46db7.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/ChiefRollingChassis2_zpsd5f46db7.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/ChiefRollingChassis1_zpsa7657b9d.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/ChiefRollingChassis1_zpsa7657b9d.jpg.html)
Scottie
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I am adapting a nearly identical Kawi swingarm to a HONDA CB750 frame. I will use twin shocks to save room within the frame for an airbox.
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You are building too high. Start with the swing arm level or a little less, and you will finalize your rear suspension as the weight comes on. Look through this build below, particularly page 4 where you will see how to change the leverage ratio to reduce wheel travel. It will be your final upper shock location that is the solution, but you cannot decide it at this time.
Set your front forks down to the build height you want for the frame/engine. As you add weight, you will start sliding the tubes back down through the triple tree to accept the load. I run my front ends with external stops, allowing the bike (with rider weight) to sit at the line touching the stops. At speed, under power, you will be off the stops due to aerodynamic vertical center of pressure. The bike will not settle onto the stops, on decel, until you are well below 100 mph. I can easily feel when my speed is low enough to sit up and turn out (and sitting up pulls it back off the stops). It only feels bumpy as I get close to the return road.
If you dont do this, you cannot bring streamlining close enough to the front fender for best effect.
CBR chassis build with shock location pic:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,10559.0.html
This thread has a pic of how the front fairing is set up, to show why the carefully planned travel limit is worthwhile:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,9761.0.html
I have had good luck building without tires on the rims, bolting the wheels to my build table through the valve stem holes. Another helpful trick is to cut about a 6" section out of an old tire, to use as a "spacing check" during your build. You can tape it to a rim wherever you find yourself working out component positions. When its time to figure out your front fender mounting, you can put small wood blocks onto it, to be sure you dont violate the fender to tire requirements.
Building them is more fun than riding them!
JimL
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Thanks for that insight JimL. Unfortunately I am very limited to changes of the front end. As in, I'm pretty well screwed in changing anything. LOL :-D Truth is that the fork tube actually threads into the top triple tree. So there is now possible way to lower the fork by fitting the tubes past the top triple tree. I was actually thinking about what you mentioned about the swing arm being negative. I know typically this is not the ideal way to gain rake, but I was thinking if I can mount the shock just right, I can lower the bike slightly and get a little rake out of the front end at the same time. I don't want to go too extreme though as I don't want to motor sitting at a goofy angle.
Scottie
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Scottie, sometimes you can put spacers on the damping rods to limit fork extension.
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Scottie, sometimes you can put spacers on the damping rods to limit fork extension.
I was actually doing a bit of research on Race Techs website today. I found these "VINTAGE FORK VALVING with GOLD VALVE CARTRIDGE EMULATORS" on their website that basically turn vintage damping style forks into a cartridge style fork. I was also reading how you can dial them in and fine tune them with damping rod spacers. $399 for a complete kit including springs.
http://racetech.com/page/id/56
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You can probably adapt the Zuki forks into your frame. I adapted FZR1000 forks onto my old GS frame head. You can do a lot of mixing and matching with bearings and spacers, easier and cheaper than reworking your Brit forks.
The cheaper part is the best part. :-)
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Yep, for a lot less money you can buy a late model busa or gsxr front end, or any other sport bike. Lots of those get wrecked, just need to find one that went down on its side, and didn't hit the car in front of it. Ebay is full of them. I think modern forks would be better than the stock alternative, with any amount of work or money thrown at them.
I'll be in Denver visiting Johnboy on our way to Portland for Freuds reunion, if you know of a spot to get a good beer, we might have time for that. PM me if you want to talk over a decent brew.
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I'm not going to lie guys, those Zuki forks are not in very good shape. When I owned the bike previously, that was my biggest gripe about it. They leaked really bad and won't hold any pressure. They were so bad that they actually caused the front tire to wear very oddly. Not to mention that about half of the parts for the forks have been discontinued including the brake lines which are totally shot.
http://www.bikebandit.com/1983-suzuki-gs550ese/o/m21344#sch240474
After reviewing what IS available, do you still think it's worth trying to save? I can completely rebuild the original fork into a better fork for about $400 and not have to modify anything.
Scottie J
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I changed the angle of the rear and took a few more pics this morning. Looking at it now I think I can get away with just mounting a bung to the bottom of the frame to mount the shock. I feel it is at a good angle and in a position to have ample travel without bottoming the frame out on the ground. Also it looks like a good lowered height that should keep me close to the ground. Thoughts?
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/CAM01819_zpsuzuy6rif.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/CAM01819_zpsuzuy6rif.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/CAM01821_zpsngcha4fa.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/CAM01821_zpsngcha4fa.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/CAM01820_zpsxxynou4p.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/CAM01820_zpsxxynou4p.jpg.html)
Scottie J
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One of the struggles, if you plan to run both SCTA and AMA events, is tire selections. SCTA rulebook has tire rating requirements which affect your wheel choices. Costwise, any class that might have over 151 mph records to run against is cheaper and simpler to build on 17" tubeless wheels. ZR rating tires are mostly 17", especially DOT Race rated as is spelled out for 200+ sit-on bikes (Bridgestone BT-003 for example).
That is why so many of us use some of the sportbike components for front and rear suspension. Its just one less question-mark taken off of the tech inspection list.
JimL
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If your swing arm is at that negative angle (relative to horizontal), you will lose the advantage that a chain driven swing arm offers for better traction. If the swing arm pivot is lower than the axle (like you're showing) the chain tension will pull upward on the swing arm. If the swing arm pivot is higher than the axle, the chain tension will pull the swing arm down as it tries to pull the wheel forward and hence improve traction. Using a smaller wheel will allow you to raise the frame as well as the swingarm pivot up to improve this situation. As Jim said, 17" high speed rubber is the easiest to find. This is probably not significant on bikes under 100 hp (that' just a guess) but high hp bikes need all the help they can get.
Another thing you need to check with whatever wheel you chose is the sprocket offset from the centerline of the wheel. Typical British transmissions put the drive sprocket closer to the wheel centerline than more modern designs that take the drive off the layshaft and usually further from the centerline.
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The entire chassis should have a similar modulus of elasticity. In other words, no part of the chassis should be significantly stiffer or weaker than any other. Those old brit bikes work fairly well 'cause everything is weak. Things get really interesting when a strong set of forks and a stiff rear arm is bolted onto those bicycle type frames.
A Rex McCandless design frame, like those found on the Norton featherbeds, will give you period authenticity and be a heck of a lot stronger. That motor should fit. They are made new and can be purchased in a variety of geometries, steel alloys, and wall thicknesses. Try Unity Equipe. The BSA A-50 or A-65 frame was a "poor boy's featherbed" in those days. It would be a lot stronger than the Enfield frame but not a strong as the McCandless.
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The entire chassis should have a similar modulus of elasticity. In other words, no part of the chassis should be significantly stiffer or weaker than any other. Those old brit bikes work fairly well 'cause everything is weak. Things get really interesting when a strong set of forks and a stiff rear arm is bolted onto those bicycle type frames.
A Rex McCandless design frame, like those found on the Norton featherbeds, will give you period authenticity and be a heck of a lot stronger. That motor should fit. They are made new and can be purchased in a variety of geometries, steel alloys, and wall thicknesses. Try Unity Equipe. The BSA A-50 or A-65 frame was a "poor boy's featherbed" in those days. It would be a lot stronger than the Enfield frame but not a strong as the McCandless.
I agree and beg to differ at the same time. the new Enfield that come out of Chennai, India do have weak frames that are prone to cracking and breaking under extreme stress. The Redditch model frames are much stronger and made with stronger steel. I'm not sure what exact gauge it is, but it looks to be close to 1/4" thick walls. If I decide to run a custom frame, Rickman makes Enfield chassis in a variety of metals for a good price. I believe Don Sliger was using a custom Rickman frame for his dual engine Interceptor.
I believe I have a plan of attack today. I spent most of my free time yesterday developing a gusset template that I can weld to the bottom of the frame and make it so it has 3 different height positions I can set it to. My problem is that I'm cutting the shock gusset out of 3/4" plate steel and I don't know how to cut it cleanly. I'm thinking of just going back to the steel shop and have them cut it for me, though any suggestions are greatly welcomed. I also picked up 8' of 1 1/8" steel tubing to fabricate a new seat area. i have some ideas floating around in my head. :-D
Position 1 (Lowest Position)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/Gusset1_zpsd8848202.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/Gusset1_zpsd8848202.jpg.html)
Position 2 (Middle Position)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/Gusset2_zps1ff5272f.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/Gusset2_zps1ff5272f.jpg.html)
Position 3 (Highest Position)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/Gusset3_zps54335326.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/Gusset3_zps54335326.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/Gusset4_zps9105b9c2.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/Gusset4_zps9105b9c2.jpg.html)
Scottie
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After looking at what I had going on for another half hour or so yesterday, I decided to do away with the "3-way adjustable gusset". After a closer look I realized that the shock mount bracket was actually damn near bottoming out on the gusset in any position other than the highest. So I opted to go with just a simple triangle gusset (2 1/4" H x 4"W) with a single mounting hole. I started welding it place and called it a day before I got any pics taken, I will get some posted up by this afternoon. I did "test" the articulation of the swing arm/shock (without the pre-load damper connected) and it seems very smooth and fluent, no binding anywhere. And even with the pre-load damper not being installed I couldn't get the frame to hit the floor, so that's a good thing.
For the record, I did follow up on Koncrete Kid's last post about swing arm angle to the swing arm pivot point and he is correct about it's relativity to traction. Now, I didn't read anywhere that said how the forces will pull the wheel different directions (upward or downward force) depending on where the axle/pivot point is located, but it did go into detail on how the higher the pivot of the swing arm, the more downward force can be transferred to the wheel. So, in a nut shell, basically the same concept. Though, it also stated that the chain/sprocket position/s have more influence on squat and anti-squat than any other factor. It was a good read BTW.
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0404_motorcycle_traction_geometry/
So I took this into consideration, and also did some close observation of my stock '58. When looking at the '58 I noticed that the OE swing arm sits almost completely parallel with the ground, assembled without rider, so I obviously had a little room for improvement. I ended up jacking up the swing arm as high as I could go with the jack I was using and took a step back and looked at it. The swing arm had a nice positive stance without being to far over the top. I was also reliant on the fact that I know when the pre-load is cranked all the way up on this shock, it gets very stiff and doesn't move much without some work. From the measurements I took, the swing arm should be a few degrees positive fully loaded up and the pre-load at about 3 where I used to keep it at.
Scottie
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Think about it. The ground contact load at the rear wheel is purely a function of the weight distribution and whatever aero load redistribution occurs. Monkeying with the swing arm geometry only affects whether the chassis rises or lowers when load is applied to the chain.
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Yes, I.O., and I think you are smart enough to determine the downward component of the chain force that tries to pull the rear axle forward when it is below the swing arm pivot on the frame. If the chassis moves upward, is there not an equal and opposite force acting downward?
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Thats an interesting thought, but given that LSR racing is often a battle between drag and traction, maybe jacking up the back of the bike might cause more aero problems than the possible traction advantage might be worth?
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If the chassis moves upward, is there not an equal and opposite force acting downward?
When the chassis moved upward it unloaded the suspension spring by just that amount--no net change. Try drawing and analyzing a free body diagram. There is nothing there to cause an increase in the tire contact load. The sprockets, chain, swingarm, chassis, springs etc. are all a self-contained force system. No external forces are affected by their internal changes.
If the contact load at the ground was increased, it would then be more than the weight originally acting on the wheel and the wheel would come off the ground! An external load (weight/aero) has to be applied to change the wheel load.
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Upon further thought, I partially agree with you. The effect of the chain pull causing the chassis to raise upward, and the wheel downward, only occurs in a change in attitude, such as a road racer slowing down for a corner and then accelerating out of the corner, or a drag racer on initial acceleration. If the chassis moves upward, then there must be an initial upward acceleration with a resultant downward force. This might also occur when changing gears, as the the bike briefly squats, then experiences this effect again upon re-acceleration. Once the chassis reaches its steady state position, no further force can be transmitted than that of its own weight. However, the opposite reaction, that of the swing arm starting at an upward angle to the pivot would try to raise the wheel on initial acceleration, which could reduce initial traction. Otherwise, all the motorcycle manufacturers have got it wrong over the years. With gobs of horsepower, modern suspension and traction control, some bikes are now built with the swingarm pivot concentric with the drive sprocket to neutralize any such forces, I believe, to make the race bikes easier to control.
Do you agree with the above?
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I like the thought process................and somewhat agree with all positive points............except; the primary reason to eliminate the distance between the drive-sprocket and the swing-arm pivot is to keep the chain on the sprockets under all conditions. For our purposes, I look to reduce the swing-arm angle to almost neutral when at speed for best chain tension and the least amount of change in chassis movement.
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Chassis movement while under acceleration or deceleration is a combination of the internal driveline loads under discussion and the change of effective weight distribution (in effect, an external load) due to the acceleration. (This accelerative load is an external effect, same as the acceleration of gravity is an external effect.) In this case, wheel loads do change, but it is due to the acceleration-induced weight redistribution.
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Interesting discussion regarding swing arm pivot and rear axle relationship......also drive and rear sprocket size play a big part in this. It should be noted that the people who first became fully aware of this back in the 1960's were Ray Hensley (Trackmaster frames) and outstanding dirt track racer Niel Keen. Understanding all these "problems" is what made the Trackmaster dirt track frames a winning combination to use. Ray on his BSA A-65 engine went as far as changing the primary drive ratio in order to be able to get the wanted ratio of drive and rear sprockets. If you were using a Trackmaster frame you had the drive coming off the corner....it would really "hook up". Nico Bakker (Bakker Framebouw, Netherlands) used this knowledge in the early 1980's on his outstanding road race chassis for some of the best riders of that time. All this knowledge was collected by seat and track time we did not have computers to do the work.....test on the track.
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I got a little bit done to the chassis. I welded 2 gussets under the frame for the upper shock mount, 1 that will slam the bike and one that well give it a "natural" stance. The pic of me sitting on the frame is the with the shock mounted in the higher "natural" position.
JimL - The gears I have picked out are a 21t front and 38t rear.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/Mobile%20Uploads/CAM01833_zpsxulfpnli.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/CAM01833_zpsxulfpnli.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/Mobile%20Uploads/CAM01839_zpsxwq9ciwt.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/CAM01839_zpsxwq9ciwt.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/Mobile%20Uploads/CAM01840_zpsqm8mpsd6.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/Mobile%20Uploads/CAM01840_zpsqm8mpsd6.jpg.html)
Scottie J
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(Sorry for the previous rambling discord. For the mercy of our sanity I dumped that last reply).
Is there any way you could run the chain slower? I really think you'd go faster with less actual chain speed. Since I dont know anything about your Enfield trans and countershaft sizing available, you can only do what you have, I imagine.
There were many successes over the years, with big countershaft sprockets, wire spoke wheels, and all the stuff we "modern builders" think was wrong. You wont know until you try it, is the only certainty, and the only thing that matters at Bonneville is that the bike gets there! You will wind up rebuilding, over the years, just like the rest of us, and thats OK.
JimL
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By "running the chain slower" do you mean run a smaller front sprocket and larger rear? And you didn't have to delete that post, I found the info interesting and worth mentioning. :-)
Scottie J
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Hi
I don't know if this helps but it is an interesting read.
http://www.tootechracing.com/Engine%20torque%20-%20Suspension.htm (http://www.tootechracing.com/Engine%20torque%20-%20Suspension.htm)
Richard
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Smaller front and rear sprockets give lower chain speed at your top ground speed. For example: CBR1000RR comes with a 16t countershaft, early Busa was 17t, latest Busa is 18t. I read somewhere that 16-17t is a good compromise for least chordal motion and reduced chain speed.
Those big 21t countershaft sprockets were probably a solution for shorter trans gearing and a rear sprocket that could not be made small enough due to wheel/brake design. Back when a bike spent most of its life at less than 50 mph (on wet roads in that rainy island country), chain speed didnt matter much. It will matter for your goals.
JimL
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Ref. reply 247:
http://www.tootechracing.com/Engine%20torque%20-%20Suspension.htm
While this may be “an interesting read”, it is incomplete, and consequently, incorrect. The author deals with some of the forces involved and balances them, but completely ignores the moments resulting from those forces, which also have to be balanced in a static analysis.
For instance, he claims that if the chain run is arranged to be horizontal, no chassis lift or squat will be produced. However, as long as the chain run is above the swingarm pivot point (the normal arrangement) chain tension will produce a torque on the swingarm about that pivot point tending to squat the chassis. Further, the related tractive force at ground level will produce a torque about that point in opposition, tending to raise the chassis.
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So I've run through the gears and just topped out at the moment I enter the speed-trap..........for the next mile I'm maintaining speed at a steady rpm.........the course is smooth and the wind is nil..........can I assume the chain-torque is steady but at a reduced level from when I was accelerating? If so, I would think the rear axle should be below the plane of the swing-arm pivot to maintain the chain tension and distance (number of links under tension) for steady speed and reduced risk of loosing traction. This would also maintain front-end geometry for best trail.
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If the rear axle is below the plane of the swing-arm pivot, this inevitably means that you're running a mile of unnecessary ground clearance and the bike has the frontal area of a barn door! Either that or the bike'll have a weird nose-down stance.
All this swingarm angle stuff is of very minor significance. Getting the bike low and out of the wind is a lot more important.
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I'm partially screwed as far as gearing/sprockets goes. Turns out the ONLY front sprocket I can find for this tranny is a 20 tooth and the smallest rear sprocket I can find is a 38 tooth which will only net me about 135mph. I called the local bike shop to see what they had available for rear sprockets and the smallest they could order was a 38, but the girl then mentioned that they use a place in California that makes custom sprockets for about $60. So I'm going to either have a 34T rear or a 35T rear sprocket made. Based upon my gearing chart and the fact that I'd like to hit 150mph on The Salt (tho it's going to be a close game of HP vs Gearing) what size rear would you guys recommend going with?
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/NewChiefGearing_zpse860ca8f.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/NewChiefGearing_zpse860ca8f.jpg.html)
Scottie J
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Hi Scottie
I am finding out, that it depends on the revs your engine makes it's Torque over.
Once you know this then you will have a better idea for your starting point and making your final decision.
My 2 stroke is a relatively Low Power/narrow Powerband combo so it is very very gearing sensitive.
There are two of us running Suzuki 250 RGV engines in different Classes down here in OZ, I'm APS the other is MPS and we share info. I had issues, but the MPS Bike ran well and went 131mph. A one tooth smaller Rear Sprocket was fitted and got an unexpected drop in Speed. It did not make sense based on our info leading up to the event :? We did not have any Higher RPM Gearing. :-(
After looking at the results of 2013 we found something we did not even think of, the calibration on the Tacho was reading about 600rpm more than actual RPM :-o.
After much head scratching and Forum Trawling we stumbled across some info about Tach accuracy mmmmm...As we have very limited data Logging capabilities on these Bikes, but run the same Aftermarket Ignition, we did a comparison between the Zeeltronic Ignition Monitor Reading against the Tach and found the same variation on both Engines. This explained what was happening, given the Narrow Power range we are playing with, why the changes had the wrong result :-D. The MPS Bike was indeed Maxed out at 131 given the Conditions and the Tune.
So this year I am running the same Engine Tune as 2013 and the other Bike has had some changes made to the engine. But now we know the Tach is wrong, I will be using my re set Zeel based Shift Light as the Peak RPM guide during the Runs and I'll be making any gearing changes accordingly. The MPS is an unknown at this point.
I am doing Tuneups in incremental stages year by year. I have done the same Calcs that you have and then I saved up and got the options so I could juggle front and rear combos within the theoretical Top Speed/RPM range once I knew what the next level Tune gave me. I am lucky that I have a a number of Sprockets available but I did have to get one Rear Sprocket made to fully cover things.
I am also looking at long term/$$?? at changing the Primary Drive Gearing as well if I ever get the Mythical 80hp RGV Engine Tune 8-) 8-)
So you can get it close and then go from there, but until you Run and find those Weird Dumb things well it is all part...
Pete :cheers:
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Scottie,
I believe I gave you some misleading information in my post #232 about your swing arm position. Thanks to Interested Observer, I have done some sketches and calculations that convince me that any gain you get from having the swing arm pivot higher than the rear axle will not be significant. And as Briz says, lowering your bike to give you better aerodynamics will be more important.
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Do you guys think I could make just a single one of these shocks work for me? Obviously I don't want to overload the shock, but I also only plan on a bike/rider weight of 550-575#. If you don't think one will be enough, I do have an idea to mount both shocks centrally like a mono shock, but it will be tight I think.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-330mm-Rear-Air-Shock-Absorber-Yamaha-Zuma-125-BWS-125-Moped-Black-silver-/180770535718?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a16c37926&vxp=mtr
Scottie J
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I think you'd be better off adding mounts to the swingarm to take conventional twin-shocks. That monoshock, without its linkage assy will make for a huge amount of suspension travel. You're not going motocrossing, 2-3" of travel is plenty.
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Well if that's the case, I'm a little bummed that so many people gave so many contradictory answers. Now I have 2 big ugly gussets welded to the frame and now I'm being told I shouldn't have done it and I should have went about it differently? I feel like I just destroyed a piece of history. :-(
Scottie J
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Well if that's the case, I'm a little bummed that so many people gave so many contradictory answers. ...Scottie J
Hey it is the Internet and opinions come and go and maybe all have something to offer one way or the other :-). Read them and then come up with "your" plan and go with it and consider that 5 years from now it might of evolved 180 degrees.
I've got hundreds or hours of work into my lakester that I'm getting ready to cut out with the plasma cutter in an hour or so and will be making a huge change in direction. These things happen :cry:. If you go down the road to making something work on the salt figure you are going to be modifying it so that it will never serve another purpose and it won't most likely ever return to its original condition.
If you decide it is best to move the shocks (and I agree that aero is first and everything else takes a back seat to it) then cut out the new mounts and grind the welds down and you won't ever know you put them in there.
Good luck,
Sum
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Hey it is the Internet and opinions come and go and maybe all have something to offer one way or the other :-). Read them and then come up with "your" plan and go with it and consider that 5 years from now it might of evolved 180 degrees.
I've got hundreds or hours of work into my lakester that I'm getting ready to cut out with the plasma cutter in an hour or so and will be making a huge change in direction. These things happen :cry:. If you go down the road to making something work on the salt figure you are going to be modifying it so that it will never serve another purpose and it won't most likely ever return to its original condition.
If you decide it is best to move the shocks (and I agree that aero is first and everything else takes a back seat to it) then cut out the new mounts and grind the welds down and you won't ever know you put them in there.
Good luck,
Sum
This was the exact conclusion that I've come to. It's not what I wanted to do but I think I'm stuck. No big deal, you live and learn, just not looking forward to cutting those gussets off, it too long enough just trying to cut them initially. :-o But I'm beginning to wonder, how important IS rear suspension on the salt? I know I've seen pics of Salt bikes that were rigid chassis. How rough is the actual surface of The Salt? Should I consider making some custom adjustable rigid struts? Or should I find a way to mount those adjustable shocks I posted in in Reply 255? I don't want to come across as clueless, I've built handfuls of classic hot rods, but when it comes to this Salt Aero stuff, well I am clueless. Seems like every time I read something new on aeros it's almost contradictory to what I read the last.
So needless to say I'm a little confused. This doesn't affect my motivation to build this bike at all, but I do agree with what you said Sumner. I just need to take every thing that I've read and come to my own conclusion. Live, learn and build one season at a time. :-D
Scottie J
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SJ remember---you have no seat time - YET- on salt---as Sum said It got to be ---YOURS --- you are the one who has to make it work. Leave it in there, run it draw your own conclusion ---do what it takes to get on the SALT then modify---may save one or two years as you are going to change it any way. UNless you are running PP then you have fewer options!!
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You aint wrong! its a learning-curve all right Scottie!
First time we went, we had twin-shock suspension. It didn't seem to make a whole lot of difference. This time, we made the frame rigid.
Doesn't hurt to have it, but making it rigid, its one less thing to worry about.
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I googled the following: "motorcycle rear drive dynamics" and got 46,000,000 results in .56 seconds. Take your pick.
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I googled the following: "motorcycle rear drive dynamics" and got 46,000,000 results in .56 seconds. Take your pick.
My point exactly. :-)
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A mono has another advantage: you can prefab alternate linkage ratios (another set of holes) to play with the travel distance, lbs/inch rate and static height much more easily.
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My thoughts on suspension is not to think too hard about it. The salt is usually smooth and I don't think you'll be making 'Busa H.P. so I wouldn't get hung up on suspension. My sidecar up until last year was rigid all round and never had a problem even when El Mirage was crap. Lock it up solid and worry about making power.
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If anyone wants to study the dynamics of motorcycle drive mechanisms, I recommend the following reference:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=rJTQxITnkbgC&pg=PA216&lpg=PA216&dq=motorcycle+rear+drive+dynamics&source=bl&ots=DYjPEfcRrx&sig=fyA_2BJxEPoISoSGh3yS2VFs7kg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9LIAU67BKamqyAHV1IGYDw&ved=0CGUQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=motorcycle%20rear%20drive%20dynamics&f=false
Don't dwell on it. It's complicated.
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I'm thinking something like this.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/07-08-Honda-CBR600RR-CBR-600RR-Adjustable-Rear-Strut-/380444144668?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58943cf41c&vxp=mtr
Or This
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GSXR-600-Adjustable-Lowering-Strut-Solid-Strut-Busa-lowering-Strut-/271112505080?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f1f9086f8&vxp=mtr
Scottie
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Last 2 times I was at Bonneville, the bike was rigid end...
Smooth ride, but we felt maybe we weren't attaining the speed we should cause of the rigid end and tyre unhooking too often...
So for this year's Speed Week, I've re-fitted the shocks... We'll see...
Draw somewhere what your bike should look like and its contents and go from there.
Deviations are allowed, but in the main, try to steer straight to your design...
Remember. it's your bike and your balls on top of it once running, so just make sure you're happy with it, not what other guys think about it...
Patrick
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I LOVE the multi-million chances you have for change :-D
A few pages ago I suggested twin shocks...............but its your choice. I reason (based on basic readings in suspension engineering) that the duty of shocks and springs is to keep the tire in contact with the surface at all times. BUT.........I have restricted my shock travel to about 2-inches and have them set quite stiff so I have minimal sag when I add my weight.
WE (Dave Murre and myself) made a plan and built accordingly with no direct experience at Bonneville. We were successful with a record on our first trip in 2011. We skipped 2012 (no $$$) and returned for another successful run in 2013. We are building another bike for 2014 and hope to be successful with both bikes.
Plan your work...........and work your plan. Somebody said that in a text book.
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So, after fighting a nasty head cold all week (still not a 100% :x ) I finally made a little more progress on the chassis. I decided to build my own custom solid strut out of pieces of steel that I happened to have laying around. I used a 1 1/4" steel pipe with a 5mm wall for the main shaft, modified a piece of 1"x2" 3mm wall steel square tubing for a clevis and a 7/8" Grade 5 bolt for the adjuster. I'm pretty happy with the results, tho I wish I could get it to go just a hair lower. If it bothers me enough I'll trim it down and redo it, but I think it will be ok. Man, I have to admit that not welding/fabbing in about 3 years has got my arse a little rusty. Ummmm, pun intended. :-) Doesn't help that my eyes aren't what they used to be either. Not that my welds are coming out bad or anything, but they definitely aren't as pretty as they used to be. 8-)
Also received word from Tom at Ace Performance that my customs valves arrived earlier this week and that Mondello's is going to start working my heads over towards the end of next week. :-D
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/SolidStrut1_zps252b51aa.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/SolidStrut1_zps252b51aa.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/SolidStrut2_zpsc2f6061e.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/SolidStrut2_zpsc2f6061e.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/SolidStrut3_zpsb30ff5d9.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/SolidStrut3_zpsb30ff5d9.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/lethalinj/SolidStrut4_zps8d968759.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/media/SolidStrut4_zps8d968759.jpg.html)
Scottie J
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Also, I forgot to share this info previously, I somehow spaced it out. :roll: This was the information that Tom Lyons at Ace Performance shared in regards to my RE 700cc twin heads preliminary flow bench results.
We have the baseline flow chart for the 700 twin.
Since the ports and valves appeared unmodified, this is probably a generally representative flow chart for the RE twins of that era.
Testing was done at 28" H2O on Mondello's Superflow Flow Bench.
Lift Intake cfm Exhaust cfm
.050" 19.7 20.5
.100" 44.8 40.4
.150" 71.0 61.3
.200" 94.2 77.4
.250" 109.2 90.0
.300" 118.0 98.4
.350" 126.6 107.5
.400" 130.9 112.0
The max lift we tested of .400" was as far up as the stock valve gear would allow, before the retainer was banging against the valve guide, so no higher lift testing was possible with unmodified valve gear.
In the plan for this head is to establish a new max lift height via custom valve train parts. While the flow numbers appear small, remember that this is a pair of 350cc cylinders, and the ports and valves are smaller too, to suit the normal application of this engine on the street in 1958. It is a bit behind the standard Bullet with the 500 cc engine, but not too far back. It might not be able to come up to Fireball flow standards, due to the fact that it has 2 smaller cylinders and smaller everything for each intake, but it should do quite well after modding, and the supercharger will have to do the rest.
Enjoy the info!
Not many places to find this kind of info on these old engines.
Scottie J
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Also, I forgot to share this info previously, I somehow spaced it out. :roll: This was the information that Tom Lyons at Ace Performance shared in regards to my RE 700cc twin heads preliminary flow bench results.
We have the baseline flow chart for the 700 twin.
Since the ports and valves appeared unmodified, this is probably a generally representative flow chart for the RE twins of that era.
Testing was done at 28" H2O on Mondello's Superflow Flow Bench.
Lift Intake cfm Exhaust cfm
.050" 19.7 20.5
.100" 44.8 40.4
.150" 71.0 61.3
.200" 94.2 77.4
.250" 109.2 90.0
.300" 118.0 98.4
.350" 126.6 107.5
.400" 130.9 112.0
The max lift we tested of .400" was as far up as the stock valve gear would allow, before the retainer was banging against the valve guide, so no higher lift testing was possible with unmodified valve gear.
In the plan for this head is to establish a new max lift height via custom valve train parts. While the flow numbers appear small, remember that this is a pair of 350cc cylinders, and the ports and valves are smaller too, to suit the normal application of this engine on the street in 1958. It is a bit behind the standard Bullet with the 500 cc engine, but not too far back. It might not be able to come up to Fireball flow standards, due to the fact that it has 2 smaller cylinders and smaller everything for each intake, but it should do quite well after modding, and the supercharger will have to do the rest.
Enjoy the info!
Not many places to find this kind of info on these old engines.
Scottie J
Hot Rod published a formula that predicts HP based on head flow with a >65% intake/exhaust ratio and maximum efficiency (cam/exhaust/intake/etc.) and number of cylinders.
I made a spreadsheet around it where you could adjust the efficiency for a non-ideal combinations and also put in boost levels if you weren't NA and also input the Altitude (altitude pressure adjustment). If you are interested I could e-mail it to you or post it with my other spreadsheet.
Using 131 cfm and 2 cylinders and 95% efficiency (100% would be all ideal components) it shows for your situation 64 HP naturally aspirated. With 12 lbs. of boost 116 HP at sea level and 106 HP at 5000 feet. If you dyno the motor I'd be interested in how close their formula is to what you make HP wise (100% efficiency would be 67 HP),
Sum
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Hot Rod published a formula that predicts HP based on head flow with a >65% intake/exhaust ratio and maximum efficiency (cam/exhaust/intake/etc.) and number of cylinders.
I made a spreadsheet around it where you could adjust the efficiency for a non-ideal combinations and also put in boost levels if you weren't NA and also input the Altitude (altitude pressure adjustment). If you are interested I could e-mail it to you or post it with my other spreadsheet.
Using 131 cfm and 2 cylinders and 95% efficiency (100% would be all ideal components) it shows for your situation 64 HP naturally aspirated. With 12 lbs. of boost 116 HP at sea level and 106 HP at 5000 feet. If you dyno the motor I'd be interested in how close their formula is to what you make HP wise (100% efficiency would be 67 HP),
Sum
That may very well be the exact same formula that Tom is using because the figure he came up was very close to that. So we must be in the right ball park. ;-)
Scottie J
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Seldom Seen Slim - I'm curious, what is the coefficient drag for that Charlie Toy LSR2 fairing? I'm trying to calculate some different possibilities.
Scottie J
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I don't know. Scottie. I don't know if it's ever been tested. Heck, it's hard enough to determine what benefits, if any, there are to using it (or some other aftermarket design). I've got the comfortable feeling that I went faster with it on my bike than with the factory 'glass, but that's about as far as I can say. some others may have done (as accurate as possible) tests - maybe coast downs in benign winds over measured distances or something - but I've heard nothing about a real measurement of Cd for the toy fairing. Scott Guthrie had a good-sized hand in the original design - maybe he's got some data. I sure don't. Sorry.
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Ok, thanks anyways. I was just curious. Could someone please give an estimated average cd for any random bike with a good LSR fairing?
Scottie J
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The best OEM Cd I've seen is for the Suzuki Hayabusa...
It is .561
A 125cc GP bike I saw the data on was .622......
I'd use .600 to start with....
Robert
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I ran my speed, frontal area, and weight through this:
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/aerohpcalc.html
I kept adjusting the Cd until I got a power number I might possibly believe. My bike has the Charlie Toy fairing and tail, with the lower tail closed and the front of the fairing completely closed (no cooling inlets).
With speed of 164, frontal area 5.5, and all-up weight at 600, it says a Cd of .45 would be about 90 hp. I also tried another calculator that suggested 82 hp with a Cd of .48.
All I know is I have 645cc pushrod twin with a time slip for 163.8, several prior runs exiting above 160 into light headwinds....all on gasoline unblown.
The tail really helps, but I still dont believe 90 hp from such a small twin. Could be, we are missing something with these calculators?
JimL
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....With speed of 164, frontal area 5.5, and all-up weight at 600, it says a Cd of .45 would be about 90 hp.....JimL
Plugging those numbers into the spreadsheet on my site (use the one for a lakester -- input all tire/wheel inputs as 0) I get 74 RWHP needed.
For a Cd of .48 I get 80 RWHP needed. For the .561 for the Suzuki Hayabusa I come up with 92 HP,
Sum
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The fairing I'm using allowed an old school 70's road racing factory 750cc twin to go 160 mph with 90 hp (no tail,, just the standard seat/tail cone of the day).
My guess is that your 650 in making 70 to 80 honest hp (any more and it would most likely be a grenade) and that tail is maybe worth about 20 hp...
Those are real strong numbers you have run,,,good job !
The air density assumptions could be a little off in those programs and that will make more difference than it first appears....
When I was crewing Reno air racers, we watched the density altitude like a hawk.... Humidity and temperature change it a lot... as the DA goes up the air mass to the engine and cooling system goes down, but so does the resistance of the vehicle moving through the air... Just how much one washes out the other can be quite vehicle dependent to get calculations to output exactly correct numbers.
Robert
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Interesting that the stock honda engine was rated 67 hp, which is what Scottys head flow shows available. I would believe I am around 75 hp, which would be 8 hp over stock. It looks like if he could get just 100 hp at altitude, blown, he would be almost 175 mph ride with good streamlining (including APS type tail)?
Aero is cheaper than horsepower, and requires less maintenance from salt damage. Gear to the moon, scotty, and dont spare the whip!
JimL
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Interesting that the stock honda engine was rated 67 hp, which is what Scottys head flow shows available. I would believe I am around 75 hp, which would be 8 hp over stock. It looks like if he could get just 100 hp at altitude, blown, he would be almost 175 mph ride with good streamlining (including APS type tail)?
Aero is cheaper than horsepower, and requires less maintenance from salt damage. Gear to the moon, scotty, and dont spare the whip!
JimL
That's what I am seeing too. Granted these are all calculators, but they seem to be pretty accurate. The figures I was coming up with indicated that with 100hp I should be able to break 140mph on the salt without a fairing and flirting with the 165-175mph mark with a fairing. If it turns out that the motor is more capable than anticipated and I can crank it to about 125hp @ 7000 RPMs I'll be knocking on the door of the 200 club with a fairing. Tom is thinking that 125hp isn't UNrealistic with our build plans. :-D Obviously, I might have to have a couple different custom rear sprockets made up. But it's all part of the fun, right?
Scottie J
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You break 200mph. on your "Cornfield" and you got $200.00 of my money....(Remember Single Engine only)
Offer still good.........................
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.... The figures I was coming up with indicated that with 100hp I should be able to break 140mph ..without a fairing and ..... 165-175mph ...with a fairing. If ....I can crank it to about 125hp @ 7000 RPMs I'll be knocking on the door of the 200 club with a fairing.....
Let's say you could run 175 on the 100 HP then you would need 149 HP to run 200.....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html#Horse%20Power%20Needed (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html#Horse%20Power%20Needed)
Using Jim's numbers again....
With speed of 164, frontal area 5.5, and all-up weight at 600, it says a Cd of .45 would be about 90 hp.
.... and running 200 mph I come up with 136 RWHP. I don't know what the drivetrain losses are on a bike compared to a car but even 10% would equate to 152 crank HP.
If you use some of the higher Cd figures quoted like say the .561 then the RWHP goes up to 168 HP.
Getting into the 2 Club is a big achievement but not the only achievement there is to be had on the salt. Setting a record with that bike within the first couple years of running would be a big achievement and one that would make you mighty proud. There are a lot of records under 200 that are a lot harder to attain than a number over 200.
For instance I'd much rather have the records John and Eric have under 200 MPH with their 50cc, 100cc and 125 cc Motorcycle Streamliner (145+, 151+ and 186) ...
http://buddfab.net/buddfabhomepage.html (http://buddfab.net/buddfabhomepage.html)
.....than say a 250 mph record with my lakester if that would ever happen.
Enjoy the journey,
Sumner
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I've been crewing racing motors from 3 to 3000+ cubic inches over the last 50+ years, and here is a rule of thumb that always seem to play out when "endurance racing".
2 rwhp per cubic inch for air-cooled pushrod engines is about the upper limit for real world reliability when racing (WFO) really hard for more than a few seconds at a time...
As you go above this, you break a lot of parts and you break them often....
Work out all your issues at 90hp, then tip-toe up from there...
Best Luck to us all,
Robert
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I don't know what the drivetrain losses are on a bike compared to a car but even 10% would equate to 152 crank HP.
Sumner
7% gets you in the ball park.
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I don't know what the drivetrain losses are on a bike compared to a car but even 10% would equate to 152 crank HP.
Sumner
7% gets you in the ball park.
Thanks. So is that through the primary drive, transmission gears and the final drive or just the final drive to the wheel? I guess it would be determined how the engine was dynoed. Can they dyno an engine anyway other than off the output shaft to the chain drive or at the rear wheel?
Sum
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The bikes that have internal transmission (German, Japanese, etc..) get their power reading off of the output shaft. If you take the factory reading multiple by 0.93, it gets you close to the reading at the wheel on a Dyno using SAE correction. I'm not sure how the Harley's and such fair compared to known engine readings. Most of the Harley's I've tuned have been highly modified ones, so I don't have a comparison to go by.
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The bikes that have internal transmission (German, Japanese, etc..) get their power reading off of the output shaft. If you take the factory reading multiple by 0.93, it gets you close to the reading at the wheel on a Dyno using SAE correction. I'm not sure how the Harley's and such fair compared to known engine readings. Most of the Harley's I've tuned have been highly modified ones, so I don't have a comparison to go by.
Thanks, good info,
Sum
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7% is an accurate drive train power loss for the Enfield bikes. Tom at Ace Performance thinks that based on his formulas, baseline flow tests and the spreadsheet in post #199 we can achieve 125hp @ 6000 RPMs. Now I've been doing all the preliminary figures going off of the factory redline of 6000 RPMs. My motor is going to not only have a supercharger but a custom 1-off valve train, and to the best of out knowledge, the best performing heads an Enfield twin has ever seen. Now take into consideration that guys who actually have raced these Enfiled twins that were "highly modified" were reportedly spinning their engines around the 7500 RPM mark. Now we all know that EVERY engine has a limit but I think this motor is going to be be 1 very serious contender for the PBF class.
Scottie J
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I had the wonderful opportunity to meet with Stainless1 and John (not sure if you're a member here or not :? ) tonight. We got to chat for a good hour and I was able to get a lot of my "little" questions answered. It was very cool and rewarding being able to sit down with a couple of Salt Vets and hear some of the stories and experiences they had to offer. They were also kind enough to leave a photo album of Stainless1's streamliner, which I am very excited to look over tomorrow. :-) Even though I'm still very early into my build, I was getting so excited and hyped up just talking about running on the Salt, or any speed event for that matter. Good times. :-D
Scottie J
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I'll guess that the "John" you met, in conjunction with Stainless, is more commonly known as "Johnboy" or, in Freud's parlance, "Johnbuoy". He's a regular member here -- "Speed Limit 1000". He doesn't shave his face very often.
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You're right Seldom, John is in fact "Speed Limit 1000". I met with him again yesterday for a short time. He's going to be helping me out with some odd and end machine work, like the 7/8" nut for my solid strut that I built, he machined down into a jam nut, and now the strut has perfect adjustability. :-D He is also going to help me machine new chain adjuster plates that go onto the end of the swing arm. The ones that are on there are made of pot metal (Freaking garbage crap. I hate pot metal) and one is already broke in half. The one I gave to Speed Limit 1000 turned out was ready to fall apart as well. Slowly buttoning up the tiny stuff. As soon as I can get a car or 2 sold sold out of the car collection I should be able to go shopping for all the good stuff! Then I can start making some real progress on this bike. It doesn't help I have a BIG time project at work right now, a '07 Forester with the entire left rear corner off of the car now. I've been working on it for a week and just now got all of the bad metal off. NOW I get to pull in the '06 parts car and gut that pig, cut off the entire corner, start cutting spot welds in all the right places and put it back together again. I'm guessing another 2-3 weeks before it's finished, job security. :wink: By that time, Tony should be back in town and I can get a couple cars posted for sale, and hopefully finish up the '56 Bel Air Custom we are getting ready to drop a 620hp 572ci Chevy crate motor in. :evil: :evil: :evil:
Scottie J
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Work out all your issues at 90hp, then tip-toe up from there...
Best Luck to us all,
Robert
:cheers:
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Geesh! Started researching connecting rods again and came across www.rrconnectingrods.com. It sounded familiar so I jumped back on here, dug all the way back to like page 8 of this thread, and sure enough, R&R is the company that Briz recommended a while back. I think I'll be giving them a call tomorrow as I'm starting to NOT appreciate Hitchcock's.com very much. I'm starting to realize that a lot of the stuff they sell they claim to be their own designs and such, but in reality other people have designed the stuff, and then they get it from them and mark it up 20% above retail pricing from the original manufacturer. Perfect example: Hitchcock's sells a performance belt drive kit. They offer the standard 25mm belt 4 disc clutch kit for 580 GBP. OK Fine. Then after looking into things, I realize that they are actually selling the Bob Newby belt drive kit, and Bob is getting hosed by Hitchcock's on the deal. So I send Bob an email personally to see what he has to offer me directly (I'd rather do business with the "small business" guy anyways) and he sends me the following offers;
"The std road kit is £440 The 30mm belt and 4 plate clutch is the same. The 30mm belt and 5 plate clutch is £450 The 40mm belt and 5 plate clutch is £475 Shipping is £45 Any additional work required for the v drive would be extra depending on your requirements."
Guess who I'm ordering a 40mm Belt 5 Disc belt drive thru? :? As for the forged conrods, after conversion rates, they will cost $515 thru Hitchcock's, so hopefully R&R can give me a better deal than that. Or at least about the same price for a much stronger steel rod.
Speaking of which, maybe you guys can put some input on this..... I understand the differences and pros & cons of using different types of metals for conrods, titanium is lightest and strong but fatigues and needs to be replaced regularly, aluminum is light but not as strong and cannot handle high HP or RPMs, steel is super strong but also heavier which creates more weight on the rotating mass. From my semi-educated decision making, I've come to the conclusion that a steel "H-Beam" is going to be best for my application. It is very strong first and foremost, and secondly the additional weight shouldn't have that big of an effect with the blower installed. Am I correct in thinking this?
Scottie J
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I dont think Hitchcocks make anything. As you say, they are just middlemen.
R&R charged us $550 for a pair of custom alloy rods.
Steel were going to be more & take longer.
Alloy rods are fine; after all top-fuel dragsters use them. They do have a shorter service life than steel in extreme conditions....like top fuel... because they fatigue quicker. But for what you're doing, no worries.
Tell R&R what you are doing and take their advise. They'll know better than anyone.
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Were those rods you got from them for this crazy custom motor job you're doing now or a different bike? That motor you're building now is freaking wild!
Scottie J
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Yep, thats the one!
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I have a question for all the Brit Bike racers out there......
Is anyone familiar with Rex Caunt Racing? It was suggested by another Enfield racer (a road racer on the Enfield forum) that I get my ignition system from them. They offer a crank fire system that sounds like it has an electronic advance curve, not sure though. They are supposed to be calling me this week to discuss the details of my bike and the ignition. I was just curious if anyone has dealt with them, and what was your experience with their product/s and customer service? Thanks!
http://www.rexcauntracing.com/pages/misc_products.html
I'm looking at the second product on this page, the Racing 4-stroke, 36deg Crank Twin Battery System.
Scottie J
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Scottie: I believe that's a dual fire system. A single fire system will save you valuable current if running without a generator, and is supposedly better suited for a blown bike, should you wish to go that route at a later date in your quest for going 200 :-)
It does look nice and affordable though :-)
Have you had a look at Pazon? A bit expensive, but have heard nothing but good about them, and they make complete kits, just add plugs and a battery.
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Actually I think I'm going with a Powerarc IDS system. They are SICK!!! Fully programmable CDI box and you can save up to 4 timing curves. The timing curves are fully programmable throughout the entire rev range, programmable red line and keeps track of every start and every red line reached and/or exceeded. The COOLEST part about this ignition is that you can program up to 3 individual sparks, per cylinder, per combustion cycle/stroke! And it looks like the kit is only about $300. This thing is bad arse!
http://www.powerarc.com/ids/c1.htm
Scottie J
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What class did you decide to run in?
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What class did you decide to run in?
M/PBF-750 my first go round and try to break that record @ 129.937 mph and then I'm going to take a go at MPS/PBF-750.
Scottie J
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Any recommendations for an exhaust set up?
I hadn't thought much about this before as I was going to run a turbo. But now that I've decided to run with the AMR500, I now have to actually come up with a plan. I know typically, running true dual exhaust is better for performance. For my set up, does anyone see or know of any advantages or disadvantages to running dual exhaust as opposed to running a Y-pipe to a single pipe/muffler? My thoughts are to run a Y-pipe so I can run the exhaust along the right side of the bike to try and keep any unnecessary heat, plumbing and parts away from the belts and blower. Also, does anyone have a muffler preference for running on the Salt? Thanks!
Scottie J
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A Y exhaust will give you superior torque than duals... This could be good if you're pulling a very high prim/sec ratio...
Straight pipes are also good for torque.
Mufflers: there's no noise abatement society present on the salt flats 8-)
Ignition...
a) Why would you want to stick something designed to fire a rocket ship on a vintage bike?
b) How on earth are you gonna 1) understand how it works 2) tune the blo*dy thing????
Single or Dual Fire: T'will be most entertaining for onlookers if you get a wasted spark while you're on the overlap with a supercharged mix coming in the cylinder
Keep it simple to start with, then go forward...
Patrick
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Wasted spark with a blown engine, is trouble....been there done that...................
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Ok, well scratch the triple spark then. It can be programmed to fire only a single spark as well.
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With the PowerArc................set your timing for the best spark desired............it is followed by 2nd and 3rd sparks a few degrees later, usually past TDC. There is no wasted spark on the exhaust stroke.
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they didn't take issue with the multiple spark they took it with the wasted spark
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Old Scrambler: it is followed by 2nd and 3rd sparks a few degrees later, usually past TDC.
:-o Well, I knew of "spark trains" in early 1900 bikes/cars, fired by a trembler...
Can only guess this ignition is designed for crap street EPA/lean engine. I know my Audi turbo TT is also firing sparks during the exhaust stroke, just to get pass the emissions (and I mean NOT wasted sparks as we normally understand them, a companion of a proper working spark in the adjacent cylinder)
Do we really need the amount of complexity/aggravation of sequenced sparks on a properly fed and properly supercharged race engine???
I certainly don't even have a retard lever/cable on me magnetos... full advance, that's all my engine needs...
Patrick
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Patrick.........I tend to agree with you. The PowerArc system is claimed (no personal experience) to aid big-bores........especially V-twins. I am considering one for a smaller bore, 4-cylinder NA motor.
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Scottie,
Are you still planning on using fuel injection? It might affect your decision on ignition options.
Tom
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Wasted spark with a blown engine, is trouble....been there done that...................
Question for bak189 (and others):
Which electronic ignitions for British twins, 360 degree firing order, do not use wasted spark? Originally, the British twins had dual points triggered by the cam, so no wasted spark. The electronic Boyer uses two coils wired in series (as I believe does the Pazon), and both coils fire at 360 degree crankshaft intervals, so are obviously wasted spark. Even on my single, the Boyer fires every 360 degrees of crank rotation, (the reason for which I don't know, unless Boyer uses the same triggers for both singles and twins to save money!) I believe the early Japanese four cylinder bikes used dual coils which fired two cylinders on every rotation of the crank, so again, wasted spark. I can't picture how any crank fired ignition can avoid the dreaded wasted spark, unless an ECU is used that can distinguish exhaust stroke from compression. So if the wasted spark causes problems with supercharging, how is this solved? Please enlighten me, as I might want to know this in the future.
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Wasted spark with a blown engine, is trouble....been there done that...................
........ I can't picture how any crank fired ignition can avoid the dreaded wasted spark, unless an ECU is used that can distinguish exhaust stroke from compression. So if the wasted spark causes problems with supercharging, how is this solved? Please enlighten me, as I might want to know this in the future.
I would like to be enlightened on this as well.
Scottie,
Are you still planning on using fuel injection? It might affect your decision on ignition options.
Tom
Yes, I still plan on running EFI. Still haven't officially decided on a system yet, but there are a few that I have been scoping out. The more I think about it the more I think I should just do some research and find an appropriate sized throttle body for a bike and building a plenum with individual injectors mounted just before the heads and running a Mega Squirt system.
Scottie J
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Something like this would work good. Simple and plain. But I think 65mm is going to be on the big side.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alloy-Aluminum-Universal-CNC-Billet-Intake-Throttle-Body-65mm-2-5-inch-Racing-/350657550120?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51a4d19728
Scottie J
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I like that idea Scottie with the injectors pointed right at the valves if possible.
Pete
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Actually, this is more like it!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KTM-250-42mm-Keihin-EFI-throttle-Body-Intake-EMS-System-250SXF-xcf-w-11-12-13-14-/121285192555?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c3d292b6b&vxp=mtr
Scottie J
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... The more I think about it the more I think I should just do some research and find an appropriate sized throttle body for a bike and building a plenum with individual injectors mounted just before the heads and running a Mega Squirt system. Scottie J
That is what I'm doing with the lakester. More learning up front but a lot of flexibility down the road and less money than anything else that I know of,
Sum
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... The more I think about it the more I think I should just do some research and find an appropriate sized throttle body for a bike and building a plenum with individual injectors mounted just before the heads and running a Mega Squirt system. Scottie J
That is what I'm doing with the lakester. More learning up front but a lot of flexibility down the road and less money than anything else that I know of,
Sum
Are you by chance utilizing a a Mega Squirt unit?
And I was just thinking, that second TB I posted is a 42mm for a 250cc KTM. Perhaps using a 65mm isn't a bad idea after all? :?
Scottie J
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....Are you by chance utilizing a a Mega Squirt unit?....
I'll be getting one from Jerry at DIYAutotune.com, he is a land speed racer. I'm going to get the MS3-Pro...
http://www.diyautotune.com/ms3-pro.html (http://www.diyautotune.com/ms3-pro.html)
.. for what I'm doing and it will also be what I use to data-logging.
You might want to look at the microsquirt....
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-c-35.html (http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-c-35.html)
On the throttle body going larger doesn't hurt near as much as if you went with too large of a carb since it is just metering air.
I've been following the megasquirt line for I guess over 10 years now and it is time to finally jump in,
Sum
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I was just reading all the features on the different units on the MegaSquirt page and I'm thinking the MegaSquirt 2 is going to work best for me as it has an optional boost control feature which could be handy with the supercharger. Also from found out from Alex (engine/turbo specialist friend/co-worker) today that I there may be a business college who is a tuner and has a dyno that I may be able to talk into getting involved with my build for tuning purposes. I'm going to hopefully talk to him in the next week or so as I want to get my '95 Legacy dynoed before and after we do the hi-compression 2.5l motor swap next week. :-D
Scottie J
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Sum - It looks like DIYautotune.com is the place to get the MegaSquirts from? From what I can see they have done a little bit more R&D into the kits and have more features and additional parts, like injectors and sensors, to complete the install. I also like the looks of the box the controller is mounted in, it looks like it is well built and air/dust tight. This is the kit I'm looking at:
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-ems-system-smd-pcb357-assembled-ecu-p-171.html
Scottie J
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Scottie;
I've used those types of cases before on other projects and they are nice. They consist of two aluminum extrusions that fit together with a tongue & groove; the end plates screw into the extrusions and lock the case together.
For additional protection from water & salt, you could pull both endplates off & separate the case halves. Put a small bead of RTV or Hylomar in the extrusion grooves and on the ends of the cases so when re-assembled the gaps are completely sealed. A coating of non-corrosive RTV around the rear of the connectors and pins will complete the weatherproofing.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Sum - It looks like DIYautotune.com is the place to get the MegaSquirts from? From what I can see they have done a little bit more R&D into the kits and have more features and additional parts, like injectors and sensors, to complete the install. I also like the looks of the box the controller is mounted in, it looks like it is well built and air/dust tight. This is the kit I'm looking at:
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-ems-system-smd-pcb357-assembled-ecu-p-171.html
Scottie J
It looks like these would also take care of your ignition control on and off boost (might have to make some trigger wheels possibly or adapt what you have).
I'd also take a hard look at...
(http://www.diyautotune.com/images/ms3pro.jpg)
...the MS3-Pro....
http://www.diyautotune.com/ms3-pro.html (http://www.diyautotune.com/ms3-pro.html)
.. It is more money up front but has a number of other features and I believe a fair amount more data-logging abilities. For you one really nice thing is it has is a removable SD card that it data-logs on. So you would have data after a run. I think the one you are looking at only data-logs to a computer and I don't think you want to carry a computer with you on the bike. In a car that isn't as big a deal. It is also sealed better and more of a plug and play than the other models.
It also comes with a wiring harness...
(http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/images/ms3pro-pkg1_med.jpg)
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ms3pro-standalone-ecu-with-839-wiring-harness-p-538.html (http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ms3pro-standalone-ecu-with-839-wiring-harness-p-538.html)
...in the base price.
You probably don't need all of the features, but they are there if you do need them down the road, even traction control :-),
Sum
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I actually just got an email back from MegaSquirt and that guy is recommending I use the MicroSquirt system. I will look into that model a little more on lunch and see if it data logs or not. I definitely want that feature. That SD card set up is pretty cool too.
Scottie J
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I actually just got an email back from MegaSquirt and that guy is recommending I use the MicroSquirt system. I will look into that model a little more on lunch and see if it data logs or not. I definitely want that feature. That SD card set up is pretty cool too.
Scottie J
Due to space constraints I'm sure the MicroSquirt is the common one for a bike and why I mentioned it earlier but make sure he knows your intended use and the flexibility you will want down the road. The Pro is bigger but still not that huge and I'll bet you could find a place to mount it,
Sum
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Large TB makes the small tip-in angles very nervous, difficult to set fuel.
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In the early days of Vehicle Stability Control and Traction Control, finite low throttle angle control was done by using two small throttle bodies instead of one large one. With faster ECUs and better software, thats gone, these days. I should mention that both MAP and hot wire AFM systems have greatest response sensitivity at lower intake airflows...by the time you get near high power settings, the ECU map is pretty much in speed-throttle angle mode.
Dual throttle bodies on a supercharged engine might need airflow control where the runner length is short to the blower inlet. A T shape vane, behind each throttle plate, can straighten the flow to the blower inlet, but the angle of the T will be try-by-testing and they didnt match on the project I was working on.
Some of the better "cold air intake" kits use this type of device to straighten airflow ahead of the hot wire air flow meter. If they dont work it out, those kits can often create flat spots during full throttle acceleration.
Complicated stuff, thats for certain.
Jim
PS: mentioning the AFM reminded me.....watch out where you use a MAP sensor if you dont have much plenum volume behind your blower. You can get into some unexpected voltage signals that your ECM may or may not choose to smooth out with fast RMS processing. When I see unstable MAP numbers (use an oscilloscope!), I try running with 2-3 feet of hose to the MAP sensor, coiled. If the signal cleans up a little, I know I am hammering the intake tract (combination of intake event frequency, blower rotor frequency, and volume/tuned lengths.). All this makes me long for a good FFT spectrum analyzer hidden under my work bench, but those days are long gone....like the song says, "time just slips away".
PPS: ...by the way, if you have to run long MAP hose, mount your sensor high and make the hose downhill all the way to your plenum. Hydrocarbons in the intake will pool in the sensor hose (along with moisture) and sludge the hose. Nuthin' sticks to the inside of rubber hose like oil and water! You will go lean when this happens.
Ok...I'll stop now.
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Scottie,
If you aren't up to "information overload" yet, I'm going to bring up a few more things you might want to research with fuel injection. I only know what I've been reading, and you are probably doing the same thing.
Fuel pump: You're going to need a high pressure fuel pump as fuel injection systems work at about 42 psi with a return line to the fuel tank. With supercharging, you might also need a boost regulated pump if that 42 psi is required to be above MAP. I think these pumps run continuously, so a larger battery may be required as I doubt if you'll be running a charging system.
Fuel injectors: you'll have to determine the "required fuel" for methanol for the horsepower you expect to make in order to size the proper injectors.
Sensors: You apparently can get away with "Alpha N" tuning, as you really don't care if it runs well at anything other than WOT. This means you can probably get away with TPS and RPM sensing. You will probably need a crankshaft position trigger wheel with a Hall or VR sensor to tell the computer exact RPM, unless M.S. can use a tach signal, but there again, most ignition systems use wasted spark. The Megamanual and Megasquirt forums should be able to answer those questions, but there are not a lot of examples out there with Megasquirt, EFI, and supercharged vintage pushrod motors.
Other sensors you may need are MAP, AFR(wide band) and EGO or CHT. I don't think you will need CLT or IAT as Megasquirt can be set to ignore these numbers. In fact, M.S. does not even use A/FR after 70% throttle opening. But, a good A/FR gauge is the first best gauge you'll ever want after a tachometer, as it will get you close on jetting even before a dyno or salt flat run. CHT or EGT and oil pressure are nice to know, but you just can't look at them at 150+ mph! A data logging system is essential for reviewing data between runs. I've gotten away without one so far (just lucky, I guess). I believe M.S. allows data logging that you can review after your run without having a separate data logger.
The only gauge I can monitor while riding is my big Scitsu analogue tachometer, and I keep my clutch hand at the ready for anything that might go bang. With the data logging system that I have installed for this year, I hope to learn a lot more than what my seat-of-the-pants system has taught me.
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Scottie,
If you aren't up to "information overload" yet, I'm going to bring up a few more things you might want to research with fuel injection. I only know what I've been reading, and you are probably doing the same thing.
Fuel pump: You're going to need a high pressure fuel pump as fuel injection systems work at about 42 psi with a return line to the fuel tank. With supercharging, you might also need a boost regulated pump if that 42 psi is required to be above MAP. I think these pumps run continuously, so a larger battery may be required as I doubt if you'll be running a charging system.
Fuel injectors: you'll have to determine the "required fuel" for methanol for the horsepower you expect to make in order to size the proper injectors.
Sensors: You apparently can get away with "Alpha N" tuning, as you really don't care if it runs well at anything other than WOT. This means you can probably get away with TPS and RPM sensing. You will probably need a crankshaft position trigger wheel with a Hall or VR sensor to tell the computer exact RPM, unless M.S. can use a tach signal, but there again, most ignition systems use wasted spark. The Megamanual and Megasquirt forums should be able to answer those questions, but there are not a lot of examples out there with Megasquirt, EFI, and supercharged vintage pushrod motors.
Other sensors you may need are MAP, AFR(wide band) and EGO or CHT. I don't think you will need CLT or IAT as Megasquirt can be set to ignore these numbers. In fact, M.S. does not even use A/FR after 70% throttle opening. But, a good A/FR gauge is the first best gauge you'll ever want after a tachometer, as it will get you close on jetting even before a dyno or salt flat run. CHT or EGT and oil pressure are nice to know, but you just can't look at them at 150+ mph! A data logging system is essential for reviewing data between runs. I've gotten away without one so far (just lucky, I guess). I believe M.S. allows data logging that you can review after your run without having a separate data logger.
The only gauge I can monitor while riding is my big Scitsu analogue tachometer, and I keep my clutch hand at the ready for anything that might go bang. With the data logging system that I have installed for this year, I hope to learn a lot more than what my seat-of-the-pants system has taught me.
Good points.
I believe that the MS3-Pro will work down to 6 volts which would be a big help in that department. We run a separate battery on the Stude to avoid having the Innovate data-logging dropping out during starting.
MS can read a tach signal. I'd also suggest air/fuel, rpm, TPS, map, CHT, fuel pressure, and the oil pressure. MS can do all of that plus more. With a turbo it also has waste-gate control. If you get a wideband air/fuel gauge, such as one from Innovate, MS can data-log it. MS will work with a narrow band O2 sensor but I wouldn't do that on anything other than a street vehicle. For a race vehicle you are going to want wideband O2 and MS cannot control a wideband O2 sensor so you need to use the gauge that has the wideband output that MS needs or another wideband O2 controller with the correct output.
It can be setup to run Alpha N but they say only on a na motor and have this warning:
MegaSquirt can be converted from speed-density to use RPM , temperature and TPS only. This is called "Alpha-N". Alpha-N uses the only throttle position and RPM to calculate the amount of fuel to inject as opposed to using the manifold absolute pressure and RPM to calculate the amount of fuel to inject.
With boosted engines, you MUST use the speed density algorithm with MegaSquirt® EFI Controller, because the throttle position bears little relationship to the amount of air going into the engine. Alpha-N is for naturally aspirated engines ONLY.
Using the speed-density algorithm, MAP is the main variable and VE is a 'tweak'. On alpha-N the VE table is the main variable, as TPS is used as a lookup into this table. Actually it is a fuel map rather than a VE table.
Alpha-N is useful for long duration cams where the resolution of manifold air pressure (map) would be small. It is also useful to get smother idle on engines that have erratic map values.
On the data-logging as far as I know all versions of MS will data-log but most require a computer to be connected when you are running the engine (in the pits or on the run).
The MS3-Pro and MS-III have the option to internally data-log at any time with the SD card that can be inserted into them. I think for the MS-1, MS-11 and the microaquirt you data log with a computer. I think some have been able to data-log with one of the smaller palm computers connected during a run.
MS has come a long ways from the early days and I haven't seen anything else that can come close to it for under $1200 for the most advanced version of it the MS3-Pro and the other forms of it that cost much less have a wealth of features and will handle almost any engine out there if you don't need quite as many outputs and less data-logging,
Sum
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Thanks guys! But I actually had all of that taken into consideration already for once. :-D
Looks like the MegaSquirt 3 is going to work best for me. I was already considered installing an A/F gauge and wide band o2 sensor/controller.
Scottie J
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Sum,
I guess we should have realized that Scottie is growing up with this stuff that wasn't even thought of when we started! Thanks for clearing that up about the "Alpha N" tuning.
I'm glad that you, Scottie, are already in the know, as a lot of this info would have thrown some of us for a big loop, including me, until about two months ago when I started looking into it. You will be my "Guinea Pig" for getting all these things sorted out.
Tom
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Sum,
I guess we should have realized that Scottie is growing up with this stuff that wasn't even thought of when we started! Thanks for clearing that up about the "Alpha N" tuning.
I'm glad that you, Scottie, are already in the know, as a lot of this info would have thrown some of us for a big loop, including me, until about two months ago when I started looking into it. You will be my "Guinea Pig" for getting all these things sorted out.
Tom
As far as growing up with EFI.... Well, chronologically speaking, yes I did. Realistically, I was a carburated kid. Starting with my dirt bikes, then with all my old GM (mostly Chevys) rods and trucks. In all honestly, up until about 6 months ago when I first starting investigating the possibilities of boosting my Enfield/Indian, I was completely ANTI-EFI and wanted nothing to do with it. Ever. Then I started to realize that there was no easy way I could just slap a carb on and be done. So I started doing lots of research on this matter as well thru the internet, ask/ed Alex about 20 questions a day in regards to boosting and EFI, did more research on the internet, ask/ed my head guy more questions, did more research, show Alex pictures of parts, THEN........ Well, you get the point. Hahahaha :-D
I realize I was a little hard headed when I first joined this forum, and wasn't too happy with some of the things I was told. I mean, no one really wants to hear something that completely goes against "their plan", as with others, most of my performance knowledge was based off of drag racing. But, after being on here for a couple of weeks, I began to realize that Land Speed Racing is a whole other breed of racing, and there was so much I didn't know. And even more I didn't know, that I didn't know I even NEEDED to know. Which is why lately, I've been asking more questions than just saying "I'm doing this, or I'm doing that."
So even if I happen to know of something, I'm still happy and appreciate you guys bringing these kind of things up. Because, chances are that I don't know something I need too, mostly when it comes to algebra formulas (Effing algebra kicks my ass. I can add, subtract, multiply and divide right off the top of my head. Give me algebra and my brain starts to smoke).
So just another thanks to everyone who has been helping me along with my project! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Scottie J
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.... and there was so much I didn't know. And even more I didn't know, that I didn't know I even NEEDED to know. .... :cheers: :cheers: Scottie J
20+ years of being interested in this deal and I still find that to be true all the time :-).
With the advent of the internet we have all had a tremendous advantage over those that pioneered this sport before the internet when information sharing was so hard to come by, especially if you lived outside the area where you could at least be a member of one of the SCTA clubs. You now have access to information over a few weeks that would of taken years to come by if at all 25-30 years ago and further back. No wonder new records are happening all the time now,
Sum
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Keep the faith. Stuart Hooper, who came to the BUB speed trials a few years ago had a good run at the Salt at Lake Gairdner with his single cylinder supercharged Velocette on Methanol.
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I'm beginning to have an odd feeling...
Materiam superabat opus.
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Materiam superabat opus.
OK....... :? Oh yeah, I'm always seeing lots of quotes from Ovid's metamorphoses on racing forums (Oh and it is forums not 'fora')
I've just got to get better 'read' :-P
(Love this place! :wink:)
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My Latin is not so good, so I Googled the saying. I got the answer in Italian and French. In plain English: "Workmanship was better than the subject matter." I'm still in the dark. Panic, please elaborate!
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LOL :roll:
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My Latin is not so good, so I Googled the saying. I got the answer in Italian and French. In plain English: "Workmanship was better than the subject matter." I'm still in the dark. Panic, please elaborate!
Well after reading about Stuart in the BRN as seeing the extensive mods he did to the engine I'm not sure how much 'Velo' is left in the Velocette and I think Panic might be saying if you are going to put that much workmanship into a bike maybe a different one to start with would of been better.
I'm just the messenger, so don't shoot me and I'll have to say Stuart might of had about the same success regardless of which bike he started with considering his skills,
Sum
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My Latin is not so good, so I Googled the saying. I got the answer in Italian and French. In plain English: "Workmanship was better than the subject matter." I'm still in the dark. Panic, please elaborate!
Well after reading about Stuart in the BRN as seeing the extensive mods he did to the engine I'm not sure how much 'Velo' is left in the Velocette and I think Panic might be saying if you are going to put that much workmanship into a bike maybe a different one to start with would of been better.
I'm just the messenger, so don't shoot me and I'll have to say Stuart might of had about the same success regardless of which bike he started with considering his skills,
Sum
And my question is, why would I want to build something that everyone else is building? Isn't more rewarding to set an impressive record with something that most people have never heard of? And a lot of the people who have heard of it are convinced you're going to blow yourself up? I Do!!! I'd rather take this Enfield and build something WAY beyond what anyone else has done before than take a Honda or Suzuki and just buy a bunch of boxes off of a shelf and put it together. It adds more excitement to the adventure! It adds more expense too, but you get what you pay for. :wink:
I think I'm going to send out a conrod to R&R this coming week and get started on those and order pistons up so I can get the rotating assembly out to Mondello's for balancing, get the piston tops ceramic coated and check clearances with the custom valve train. I think the heads are nearing completion.
Scottie J
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My Latin is not so good, so I Googled the saying. I got the answer in Italian and French. In plain English: "Workmanship was better than the subject matter." I'm still in the dark. Panic, please elaborate!
Well after reading about Stuart in the BRN as seeing the extensive mods he did to the engine I'm not sure how much 'Velo' is left in the Velocette and I think Panic might be saying if you are going to put that much workmanship into a bike maybe a different one to start with would of been better.
I'm just the messenger, so don't shoot me and I'll have to say Stuart might of had about the same success regardless of which bike he started with considering his skills,
Sum
And my question is, why would I want to build something that everyone else is building? Isn't more rewarding to set an impressive record with something that most people have never heard of? And a lot of the people who have heard of it are convinced you're going to blow yourself up? I Do!!! I'd rather take this Enfield and build something WAY beyond what anyone else has done before than take a Honda or Suzuki and just buy a bunch of boxes off of a shelf and put it together. It adds more excitement to the adventure! It adds more expense too, but you get what you pay for. :wink:
I think I'm going to send out a conrod to R&R this coming week and get started on those and order pistons up so I can get the rotating assembly out to Mondello's for balancing, get the piston tops ceramic coated and check clearances with the custom valve train. I think the heads are nearing completion.
Scottie J
I might be mistaken but I don't think the comments above were about you unless Panic was relating you to Stuart. I wasn't I have no problem with someone going down a different path, I have most of my life :-),
Sum
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I might be mistaken but I don't think the comments above were about you unless Panic was relating you to Stuart. I wasn't I have no problem with someone going down a different path, I have most of my life
I thought that's what panic was implying, but either way. :-)
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Just a gentle elbow nudge that no matter how carefully the mods are executed there will still be limitations native to the original design, and you won't know what they are until very late in the game.
And yes, you should do it anyway!
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Just a gentle elbow nudge that no matter how carefully the mods are executed there will still be limitations native to the original design, and you won't know what they are until very late in the game.
And yes, you should do it anyway!
I absolutely agree with you! Which is why I have researched the hell out of this motor and why I'm spending so much on custom parts for it. It's also why I'm initially going to stay close to the factory red line of 6K until I can get a good feel for it and have it tuned correctly and see what it actually wants to do. All in all, I'm feeling very optimistic about this build. :-)
Scottie J
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An example of "what you won't know until 'point X' has been reached": stock T120R barrel separates at the base flange, and blows off the cases.
There isn't that much history of prior RE projects at this level, hence, you're the canary in the coal mine.
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An example of "what you won't know until 'point X' has been reached": stock T120R barrel separates at the base flange, and blows off the cases.
There isn't that much history of prior RE projects at this level, hence, you're the canary in the coal mine.
Yep! :-D
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I like Canaries :-D
Briz has a 'hold-down' solution you may wish to consider.
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I'm trying to get everything lined up for the EFI system. MegaSquirt has recommended using 42#/hr injectors for my set up. Is anyone familiar with the "Bosch Green Top" injectors? They seem to be the same injectors that MegaSquirt is selling, but for whatever reason MS doesn't sell the 42# injectors individually. I did however find them on fleabay for $34 each free shipping. Does anyone know if these injectors will handle methanol? It says they are safe for use with gas, ethanol and E85. And what is the actual difference in these injectors? I can see they look different, but what's the difference in performance?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Highest-Quality-42lbs-Fuel-Injector-0280150558-440CC-/321257146363?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4acc6b07fb&vxp=mtr
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/bosch-42-lbhr-injectors-flow-matched-set-of-p-559.html
Scottie J
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I run Bosch "Green tops" in my turbo'd VW. The "highest quality" e bays one looks just like the classic green tops, but are probably just cheaper knock offs. The Bosch greenies are the newer version of the green tops; some people refer to them as "Green Giants." I believe they are just a replacement for the older style green tops.
I would go for the genuine Bosch ones. If you are planning on running more than one injector, they are flow matched, which can help avoid lean/ rich cylinders, depending on how the plenum is built (ie. one injector per cylinder). They also will most likely have a better spray pattern, but it's hard to know without side by side testing. I seem to remember reading that the tips have a different design and the newer ones help with atomization.
The cheaper ones may be just fine though, and for the price you could buy a few and pick the ones that spec out right where you want. It's fairly easy to rig up an injector tester/ cleaner.
I've also seen sets of 4, so maybe that would be a better way to go instead of buying 8. Another option would be to buy a used set and clean/ flow them, and you still would be less than the new green.
Regardless of what you choose, if it's not exactly what MS recommends, make sure they are the same impedance, as that would cause major headaches.
These may be worth checking on:http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6707409-FS-Bosch-green-top-injectors-440cc&highlight=green+top
Lots of others for sale over there too.
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I'd be looking at the most modern/highest volume Brit twins used in fuel motors (T120 and Commando) for extra clamping, which fins are welded together for more bolt perch, extra bolt rows, jacking screws from the frame, outboard bearings, etc. Some might be directly adaptable, others provide food for thought.
I'm wrestling with transferring my valve spring load from the valve guides to the cylinder base flange.
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Well, not much progress has been made in the last few weeks. I've been crazy busy with auto body and paint, both work and side projects. So unfortunately I haven't had any time at all to work on the Chief. BUT, I did manage to find a little extra time in my busy schedule to coordinate and send out a connecting to R&R to have couple custom steel H-Beam rods made. Man, I need to finish Alex's Impreza so I can get back on the bike.
Scottie J
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Hi Scottie
This is the difference between those Injectors, the Older EV1 style on ebay basically squirt the fuel in with virtually no atomisation, the newer EV6 style like the ones sold by MegaSquirt atomise the fuel, so get the later EV6 style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu25-ObPUGM
(http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af354/RGV866/Injectors_zpsef89a31f.jpg) (http://s1023.photobucket.com/user/RGV866/media/Injectors_zpsef89a31f.jpg.html)
http://www.sonicperformance.com.au/0-280-155-968/Bosch-Motorsport-Green-42-lbs-440cc/pd.php
Pete :cheers:
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Excellent! Thanks Pete. Expensive little buggers.
Scottie J
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Hey everyone! I haven't done much with the bike lately. I've been swamped with collision and paint work and I've been working on my '58 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer getting it ready for a season of riding. I do have good news tho. I spoke with Tom Lyons earlier this week and my custom high ratio rocker arms should be completed at the end of this month, early next month. They are going to be a 1.45 ratio rocker, and combined with the Interceptor "R" cams we should be able to produce about .500 of lift! This is way beyond what any Enfield Twin has ever done in the past! Once the rockers show up, Mondello's will start the porting process and when finished, put back on the flow bench to see the results. Once the heads and conrods are finished I'll be able to start putting the motor together and checking for clearances and what not. Despite some peoples skepticism this motor is really starting to come together. I've also decide that once I do have the motor assembled and test fired, I am going to install it without the blower and get the motor broken in, in NA state. This will help me make sure that everything is dialed in correctly, but most importantly, it will give me a real life scenario of just how big of an increase in HP over stock form these mods will provide, and then also give me a comparison of how big of a difference the addition of the blower will make. :-)
Scottie J
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Congrats on being able to assemble the motor soon and like the rest of us life can sure get in the way of these projects so just do what you can when you can.
On the na vs. blown motor I'd think the piston selection would be quite different along with the cam specs. I'd lean towards what was best for the blown motor if you can't do both and just realize that unblown you are giving up some HP in that state.
Keep at it,
Sumner
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Anything new?
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Hi again! Life is crazy sometimes. I haven't made any progress on the chassis at all, buy I hadn't been doing s fair amount of fishing. 8) But good news is that the heads are pretty much finished and just need to be paid for. And lord are they sexy! The custom high ratio roller rockers were the key to success in this head job as there was very little room for improvement Enfield heads. The heads were so compact and awkward all they could do was clean up what was there and change the combustion chamber a bit. Baseline flow figures where 132cfm per head and they are now just over 160cfm per head with a potential of .510 of lift at the valves with the Interceptor cams. Stock lift was .328. Blue print figures are showing 80hp NA which is double the factory HP. With the supercharger it should be able to produce 125 HP @ 7500-8000 RPMs at the crank, almost triple the factory HP!
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Here's a link to my photobucket album with the pics of the head work.
http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lethalinj/library/Royal%20Enfield%20Twin%20Heads
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The heads look great, the rocker arms are impressive.
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It's a HEMI! :-D -- nice work ----We look forward to you sharing your JOY of firing and riding this thing for the first time :cheers:
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Very nice :-) :-) :-) :-)
Don't drop one..........or the other :wink:
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Very nice :-) :-) :-) :-)
Don't drop one..........or the other :wink:
Funny you should say that. When I lived in Pepin, WI I grabbed a 454 head out of my girl friends Dad's trunk and the plastic tore and that son of a beast smashed my toe. My toe nail still grows all jacked up to this day, so never going to forget that one. :-o
It's a HEMI! :-D -- nice work ----We look forward to you sharing your JOY of firing and riding this thing for the first time :cheers:
Indeed it is! Although I don't believe the Brits understood the concept of hemispherical firing in the 50's. :-D
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Firing?.... Not sure what you mean.
But they sure as hell didn't understand port design! I just bought a BSA A65 head, and the ports exhibit all the things you shouldn't do when porting heads. They dont turn down towards the valve, just hit it straight at 30-odd degrees. No short turn radius at all.
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I was just referring to the location of where the spark plug fires in the chamber.
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Just wanted to post some technical mumbo jumbo regarding the heads, posted on the Enfield forum by my head builder, Tom Lyons.
These heads flow 30 cfm more at peak lift, than the stock heads do. That's for each head.
There are estimation formulae which are used to make some useful predictions about power from air flow, and we use those to help guide us in our work. For a high performance build with high compression and all the proper tuning methods for making highest power, the estimation is .256 times cfm. Since this is just about 25%, we can use an easy rule-of-thumb and say that there is about one hp for every 4 cfm of peak airflow, in a racing grade engine. This is an estimate method, and it can be a little more or less in the real world, but it gives a useful directional indication of what the head will probably be able to do.
In Scottie's heads, our work has provided 160 cfm peak flow per head. This is an easy one to figure, because it comes out evenly when divided by 4.
160/4 is 40 hp. That's at the crank.
And there are two heads involved, at 40 hp each, so that's a total output estimate of 80 hp at the crank, from this engine in normally aspirated(carb or EFI) full race tune.
Now, there are other ways to look at this, based on factory performance levels or street use.
We can look at this engine, and see that it peaks at 130 cfm in factory form. And we see Scotty saying that the bike is rated at about 40hp from the factory in its 1958 form when new. That's 20 hp per cylinder. So, we can divide 130 cfm by the factory 20 hp per cylinder, and we find that this factory engine requires 6.5 cfm of peak airflow to make one hp, instead of 4. This is due to a lower stage of performance that the factory street machines often reflect.
So, to extrapolate the basic street tuned expectations with standard compression and similar tuning as a factory bike might be, we can divide our 160 cfm by 6.5 and get 24.6 hp per cylinder, or a total estimate of 49.2 hp, just by putting on this head, not including any higher revving of the engine or anything else. Same rpm limits as stock. That's nearly 25% increase, essentially all from increased torque.
But hp comes from torque x rpm, so we also made the heads to allow higher revving for that purpose. In fact, we made it to rev about 30% higher than stock. So, take that 50 hp, and times it by 1.3 and we get 65 hp if it goes up to 8450 rpm. That's probably more than a street bike is going to be able to do. So, let's look at a more reasonable rpm max for the street, at like 7200 rpm, and multiply by 1.11, and this gives us 55.5 hp for a reasonable expectation of street power at reasonable street max rpms for a street built motor with a bottom end that can handle 7200 rpm. Approximately 40% power increase at that stage of tune.
So, depending on how you want to build this engine, I'd estimate the power range to fall between 50-80 hp at the crank. The more "racy" you build the engine, the more power it will be capable of. The breathing is there for it. It all comes down to the level of the rest of the build, and the rpm that you wind it up to. These heads can go over 8000 rpms. That's where the max power levels will be. But, do we move enough air????
Let's see.
8250 rpm has 4125 intake cycles per minute.
4125 intake cycles of 350cc each equals 1443.75 liters per minute.
We want to have availability of 125% volumetric efficiency if we can get it, so 1443.75 x 1.25 =1804.6875 liters per minute is needed.
There's 28.3 liters per cubic foot of air. So, we divide 1804.6875 by 28.3, and we get 63.76 cfm.
However, we only get about 2/3 of a revolution on the intake cycle to get that air in, we have to multiply that by 1.6 to get that same amount in in that shorter time period. So then we get 102 cfm needed to feed this engine at 8250 rpm at 125% volumetric efficiency.
Okay, so we have 160 cfm, but it doesn't flow 160 the whole time, because we have the valves getting open, and then closing down. So, we can look at the average flow rate over the whole lift cycle which is typically about 2/3 of the peak flow rate. I don't have the chart in front of me right now.
So, 66% of 160 is 105 cfm estimated average flow out of this head.
We need essentially 102 cfm to feed it, and we are averaging about 105 cfm over the lift cycle, which gives us just a little more than we need, just in case.
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Okay, now let's look at the port size.
Our 1.25" port gives a minimum cross sectional area of 1.227 square inches.
A very well ported head that flows exceptionally well can utilize a mach index of up to 0.6 of the speed of sound before choking. That's about the limit. We strive to size our ports to reach our mach limit at the approximate maximum rpm that we plan to reach, in normally aspirated(N/A) trim.
So, let's see how we did.
When we input the Super Meteor engine specs into the mach index calculator, along with the .040" overbore size of the piston, at 8250 rpm, and .500" lift, and a 1.227 sq. in. port size, here's what we get.
**Intake Port Mach Index**
Your bore size is 2.8 inches with a stroke of 3.54 inches
and with a valve diameter of 1.5 inches and cross sectional area of 1.227.
Running a valve lift of .500 inches at 8250 RPM,
Your intake port velocity is 307.22 fps
Your intake valve mach index is 0.59
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I think that's looking good to me. ;D
So, we can feed the engine the right amount of air to hit 8250 rpm at 125% volumetric efficiency, which is plenty of available air.
And, we can reach the target rpm of 8250 in N/A trim, just a hair below the choke speed, so that we get the fastest moving air possible at the time that we need it.
Everyone following that?
You ain't getting that kind of work off anybody else doing these engines.
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Everyone following that?
You ain't getting that kind of work off anybody else doing these engines.
SJ :-D I would not bet on it -- but then I am a car guy -- there are a ton of awfully smart guys doing old bikes out there, some of them old smart guys---you maybe just haven't met them or maybe one hasn't decided to run you class
I am really enjoying reading your build ---you are doing the research necessary to develop the knowledge base required to "bump em" it took me 9 years to build and get a record back this time I have been at it a while
Most of all you seem to be enjoying the journey---that is the important part---enjoy the journey
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Thanks Sparky. I am enjoying the journey.
Tom isn't implying this type of head work hasn't ever been done before. But it has never been done on an Enfield twin. Or at least if it has been to an Enfield twin it has been kept a total secret and never spoken about.
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To the best of our knowledge, even with the stock wimpy camshafts I will have .100 more lift than any other Enfield twin has ever had.