Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: JimL on December 02, 2013, 11:49:15 PM
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This arrived on the front porch today...Eaton TVS R410. :wink: First pic shows how small this is, next to a 20oz pop bottle. It will be crank driven, with EFI.
Trouble brewing! :evil:
Regards, JimL
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Nice Jim, bet that set you back a guitar or two.
John
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Ummm...you cant purchase these, as they remain unavailable. :? Otherwise I couldnt possibly afford one. :|
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Jim, why a super and not a turbo?
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Too hard to turbo this 80 degree odd fire...and I already learned how to blow up a turbo engine at SpeedWeek 1998! Easy to control the upper limit with this blower. I don't need to get crazy, here....this bike already ran 164 un-blown on gas.
Much to learn, quickly.
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Jim,
You are a glutton for punishment!! But it is always fun to watch!! Looking forward to seeing how you do this!
Rex
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4 rotors
Nice
G
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Thanks, Rex...this will be fun to build. I had a long visit with Dave Phillips today (he was on the Ford Indy V8 project) and he really set me straight on some things. Dave and Larry Slutter worked together at TRD, back when my wife was the front desk. Both those gentlemen did their best to teach me a little, and I hope to apply some of that to this new project.
I needed to get that explained, so folks dont think I completely know what I am doing. So, with that cleared up.... the plan is moderate boost, plenty of flow, batch fired efi, ice water intercooling, more compression than seems logical, and engine temps held low.
I have been running this bike keeping the heads and block as cool as possible (I can lay a bare hand on the cylnder head at the end of my turnout.) This method has let me run very high compression ratio (without detonation) and enough lead to spin 11,000 or so to cover my 3-4 and 4-5 upshift.
I pull the pistons after each event and find no sign of ring gap line-up while running A19A. Larry taught me to be absolutely sure I am not making the rings line up, even if the piston crown and plug porcelin look perfect. You cant assume...you must tear down and look. My tune up has been safe, all this time.
That said, I still have problems to solve, notably the constant head gasket leaks. This engine is an early open deck design and the fire rings are stretching on the very first pass, every year. I was lucky this year; the high wind on Saturday forced me to ease a few times on my first pass. I was able to leave the line Sunday morning with one cylinder still good, and the other not too bad, which made the good return run. I either have to rearrange components to allow head gasket change in impound, or find a way to O-ring these cylinders.
As usual, I got to ramblin' again. I do enjoy the camaraderie of this group, and the great knowledge base to learn from. I get real nervous, sometimes, when folks start sayin' nice stuff to me.... shortly after I just had a full physical.
Did my VA Doc tell ya'all something she dont want me to hear? :-o :-o
Regards, JimL
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One trick I did years ago on a BSA copper gasket was to grind away parts of the gasket that were not essential to make a seal. This was removal of material from the outside perimeter. The tension from the head bolts was distributed over a smaller gasket area and as a result, the clamping pressure was increased. It worked.
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Thanks, Bo, that reminds me that I need to see if there are copper gaskets for the CX Turbo. I suspect I will be getting a deck plate, like the Honda Civic guys do, and O ringing the heads. One fascinating possibility would be the method Honda used to stroke the CX500/750 flat tracker conversion. It was a longer sleeve with a thick flange to raise the heads and allow more stroke.
I could build into 1000cc class...and perhaps the poorhouse...all in one fell swoop.
JimL
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Nice score, Jim,
Next time you're in Colorado, come down to visit me and bring that thing along. I'll bet I can find a good home for it!
Tom
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Jim
I don't know if this might help, but one of the Subaru engine builders over here Perfourmance Motorsport used to do for their "Stroker" engines.
(http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af354/RGV866/A%20bit%20of%20Fun/subaru_strokerkits_03_zpsd8f74704.jpg) (http://s1023.photobucket.com/user/RGV866/media/A%20bit%20of%20Fun/subaru_strokerkits_03_zpsd8f74704.jpg.html)
"The standard is on the left, we weld in bridges and machine the block for support to stop the bore wall shifting under load"
Pete :cheers:
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Don't know if this will help................On my current Triumph Cub motor, we sleeved the cylinder and created a 2-3-thou step at the deck to try and help the copper head gasket to seal. On the 3rd heat-cycle the 45mm gasket blew at the stud nearest to the exhaust. I had a new gasket made at 25mm thickness but with smaller holes at the two studs that are not doweled. The wider amount of copper material worked with compression at 13 or better.
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For someone who said he was going to "lay low" this winter, you sure sound like you will be busy.
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Thanks for the tips, fellows. It appears there is something going on, because I have had headgasket leaks on all 5 of the engines, in 3 different displacements, on 7 different heads, 6 different blocks, with 3 good machinists. Always the same problem, but much more on the big blocks than the little blocks.
Worldwide, the 650s have a reputation for head gasket trouble...so I dont think its just me. This is the kind of stuff that makes me grumpy; this never ending train of errors and missed chances. I would sure like to make two runs in a row that are both good. My son did it in '11, but I havent, yet.
Ed...you are right, but luckily I aint smart enough to quit. :x. I hope you are getting to work on yours, now!
JimL
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Well setup engines do not blow head gaskets, one of my better tuning books says. This is a big generalization, but there is some merit and a lot of truth to it. Is the pressure spike from combustion occurring when the piston not far enough past top dead center? Maybe the solution is to use a slower burning fuel or to retard the timing a little bit.
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That can certainly be part of it. I have had this happen with the timing retarded, also (slightly behind stock...back in the 34 degree range). The kicker is that its usually (mostly) my forward cylinder on any of my engines. My rear cylinder is mounted in a "taller" area of the block that is also carrying the trans cassette. The pattern of failures is making me suspicious that I have pushed into some physics that Honda didn't plan for.
This could be an RPM related problem, also. The Turbos dont seem to have a bigger problem than mine, but they are nearly 3000 RPM below the peak numbers I have been using (and I have been spinning these as much as 2500 over the original redline.)
Years ago, I was involved in head gasket investigations on a twin-cam V6. The trouble turned out to be, in part, the need for "fast light" EFI tuning. This is the various methods used to get heat into the cats as quickly as possible, to meet EPA standards for cold engine warm-up.
Drivers who were excessively gentle, during cold warm up, were accelerating gasket problems. The slow rate of cylinder head expansion, overall, was not matching the growth of the exhaust side of the head (due to the need for late, long burn to blow heat into the cats). The heads were bending sideways during a too slow, light load, warmup. That stretched the ends of the gaskets far enough to tear the dowel pin holes open. External water leaks were the result.
That issue is part of the reason all modern cars and trucks have stainless steel tubular or log headers (along with the need for less material to absorb heat that the cat needs for getting up to temperature). The rest of the "fixes" remain proprietary information, but the manufacturers have all done good jobs of solving it, in various ways.
So...I'll bet component movement is some part of my problem. What fails after I fix THAT, will be another mystery to ponder.
Hope you enjoyed the old history story on a cold, snowy night in the Oregon hills. Yesterday morning I learned how far exploding Schedule 40 PVC water pipes can fly during the night (some pieces were 40 feet from the failure!). I guess I didnt get the above ground sprinkler system drained well enough.
JimL
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Jim, that's some very interesting information. Thanks.
I had some inch and three quarter metal pipes burst one day. It was -5*C in the house!!!!. South African farm houses are not built like yours.
Zero insulation.
The pipes ran externally and I only knew there was a problem at lunch time when there was water gushing everywhere.
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Unh, Mr. Scrambler, sir -- are you sure about that thickness? Isn't 25 mm about equal to 1 inch? I'd say that'd make for some pretty low compression. :evil: :evil:
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Unh, Mr. Scrambler, sir -- are you sure about that thickness? Isn't 25 mm about equal to 1 inch? I'd say that'd make for some pretty low compression. :evil: :evil:
Someone is missing the point. :-D
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Speaking of someone -- Don, please accept our corngratulations on your son's accomplishment. It's super-cool. I'll let you decide to tell the group here, but whatever -- good going, Gus. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Thank you Jon.
I will post in a LSR General Chat thread instead of hi-jacking Jims thread.
Don
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Jim
Just some background about that Suby Mod.
From the discussions I had with the good people at Perfourmance, they had issues sealing the Heads in their 2.7 ltr Kit engines during the development stage, and found it was the Open Deck design of the 2.5 ltr Suby Block at the time (pre Turbo 2.5) causing the problems.
They looked at the factory Suby Turbo Engines 2Ltr and they had a Closed Deck, so they came up with their own modified "Big Block". It allowed them to run High Boost and develop 600 reliable HP at the crank.
Pete :cheers:
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Thx. I know open decks make cheaper casting processes. I will fix this problem and we'll see if I can go a little faster...two runs in a row!
JimL
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Just a "curiosity note" and a pic to show where this starts. This picture was taken the first time we ever ran the bike un-streamlined. You can see the room behind the engine, which will give me some space to move the engine back, if needed. That could be required to make room for the blower in front of the crankcase.
I'm hoping to gain a little left side weight with the intercooler, to prevent adding more left side ballast plates as seen in this photo. There is also ballast on the countershaft cover. If the batteries can move behind the engine, the blower might squeeze in front without moving the engine. We'll know pretty soon.
Mainly, I want to keep plenty of weight on the front wheel. Aerodynamic forces load the rear wheel just fine, for these small engine bikes.
JimL
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Jim that's an excellent dark side foto.
FREUD
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Yup, you are right about that dark side, sir! A few people took pics because they'd not seen anything quite as homely. Sometimes, things that work real well dont look very handsome.
(I keep trying to convince the lady, but she's not easily fooled.) :lol:
Hope to see you in February, and you stay warm and dry until our regularly scheduled winter returns. I'm still on tire chains and 4wd up on this hill.
Regards, JimL
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Jim, maybe you will not need to rev the bike as high with the blower and your gasket problems will be solved.
Jim, during the cold snaps you simply do not go anywhere. Lots of fire wood, a warm wife, and a couple of bottles of hooch will keep you off the road until things warm up. That is what we do here.
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Salt got the point...........I forgot it :lol:
Jim.......that is a fantastic build........all business.
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Working out the supercharger drive from right end of crankshaft. This stub will be machined to accept the drive pulley for the supercharger belt. The stub has matching splines for the primary drive gear on the crankshaft. The bolt shown is much longer than I will use, but it let me check run-out at the end of my drive stub, .001" is close enough for a multi-rib belt.
I will bore the hole in the clutch case (it is a threaded hole to access the orginal crank-shaft bolt). With a sleeve over part of the splined shaft, I can fit a seal in the case.
I wish I would have thought of this connection point when I was trying to connect two engines. I could have used a cog-belt and it would have been simple.
JimL
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Amazing how the simplest things are so complicated. This photo shows the configuration of my blower drive off the crankshaft.
Note about the pic: This is an old, unusable block and crankshaft, but its handy for checking runout. I have more junk parts than good, which is what happens when you scrap lots of clunker bikes to get a few useful pieces. :-P
I had to slice an extra oil pump drive sprocket and turn it for a 1.25" seal surface. After that little job (which took all day with a Dremel clamped onto the tool holder of my lathe), I had to cut another oil pump drive sprocket to make a spacer. That only took a few hours. These parts are harder than the proverbial "hammers of Hades".
The end of my pulley mount is turned to accept 1" bore pulleys, with 3/8" thick engagement. I think I will pin and bolt the sprockets onto the flange portion, rather then ask the crankshaft bolt to do double duty.
Now I have to find someone to make the 3-rib pulleys. The R410 doesnt take much power to spin, so 3-rib belt is all thats required. I have seen one application making over 200 HP from an R410 running just 3-rib belt with a spring-load tensioner.
JimL
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Not a very well staged pic, but try to ignore the background. It looks like I will be adding about 13" to the wheelbase. This will make enough room for the intercooler tank and pump, plus a switch to garden-tractor batteries to handle the fuel injection pump, etc.
The rear suspension is going to be a challenge. Quite a bit of fiberglass work coming my way, also.
JimL
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Just looking at today's picture, that sure is a big box from TRD for such a tiny supercharger, are you sure you aren't putting a 671 on there?
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Should have moved that, it has nothing to do with my bike project. Theres an M62 in that box, which is about 2 1/2 times the size I am using.
JimL
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I know what it is going on. :roll:
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...and stop arguing about it, Don, its bad for my blood pressure and I am an old man! :x
"Tired of moving that box around" JimL
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Jim, I wasn't going to say anything, but since Don commented, and you did say you didn't clean up the background for your picture.... well, here goes...
Jim, it looks like you're gonna need a longer table... :-D :cheers:
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As we used to say in Colorado, "....boy, howdy!" The fair and lovely Jeanne gave me a laser level for xmas; it will be helpful building that table out longer and flatter! Its due for new plywood, anyway, because I draw a lot of lines on it.
Anyway, this bike will definitely stay with my trailer crane loading method, especially when you see whats gonna' happen to the belly pan. I ran an aluminum spat, this year, ahead of the rear wheel. What showed up from the salt blasting (front wheel) was a real eye-opener and unexpectedly assymetrical.
Uh-oh. :-o :?
More trouble brewing...
JimL
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Jim, some old guidance I got years ago and still use is the trail needs to be a certain percentage of the wheelbase. Is this true? Will you be increasing the trail to reflect the longer wheelbase?
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I will still be between 5-10% trail-to-wheelbase. This bike has been solid at over 160mph, and takes pretty good pressure to change line at speed. Wind is difficult, and I will have to quit trying passes in big sidewinds. Its never tried to wobble or fall down, but it has skidded the front wheel in gusty sidewinds. You lose a lot of speed that way, with such limited horsepower.
JimL
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There is nothing like a new build/rebuild to teach you things you almost didnt want to know.
In the process of working out this plan, I recently spent a day with my cam people. We jointly realized that there is a problem with this engine design, wherein the rear cylinder cam lobes begin lifting at the outer end of the pivoted follower, but the front cylinder cam lobes begin lifting closer to the pivot point.
They set me up with a good kit to map each of my cam lobes so we can get new cam designs worked up (including new unblown grinds, as well as a blower grind). Tonight I mapped every lobe of the most recent cams I had made for 2013, at .010" intervals.
What a deal. The front cylinder begins effective lift (the .050" point) 30 degrees ahead of the rear cylinder, but with .015" less lift. Additionally, the front cylinder lift graph, at the valve spring retainer, has two "bumps" in the lift lines, on both opening and closing ramps.
The rear cylinder has only one bump in the graph lines, during opening and closing. Curiously, the original factory cam design has highly assymetric lobes, with reversed (slightly non-matching) lobe shapes for the different cylinders.
Bottom line: My latest cams, intended to be 270 degrees effective, are only 231 degree duration on one cylinder, and 246 degrees on the other cylinder. With .005"-.0015" actual increase in lift, over stock, these cams are probably still not as effective as the stock cams.
This should be a lesson to anyone working with a single cam engine that has rockers or pivoted followers pointed in opposite directions. I wish I would have realized this 5 years and a few thousand dollars ago. :oops:
I would really love to see the cam graph for this engine (http://8w.forix.com/penske-mercedes-pc23-pre-94-plans.html) because it used almost identical follower arrangements. If you scroll to the bottom of the page, there is a cutaway color drawing, where the short cam followers can be seen with the same geometry Honda used on these pushrod twins about 15 years before that Ilmor engine.
JimL
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There is nothing like a new build/rebuild to teach you things you almost didnt want to know.
I wish I would have realized this 5 years and a few thousand dollars ago. :oops:
JimL
Jim, those statements ring true for all of us... When you race the salt, you get limited chances to test your theories, some years less than others.
See you at Freud's reunion :cheers:
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Oops...too tired last night. It should say "13 degrees" different opening points, not "30 degrees". The duration I reported is correct, but the lobe spread center is not correct for an 80 degree engine.
It is pretty close to correct for a 90 degree v-twin, however. :-o :-o
Oh nooo.... Another long phone conversation coming. More mysteries to ponder.
Not a good way to start this day.
JimL
Update an hour later: good info from WebCam... it is the rocker ratio due to short arm length and sweep radius, going in opposite direction. This has me wondering about things like 20R/22R aftermarket cams; same deal of rocker followers pointed different directions.
So, now I have to detail degree every cam we've used, in each engine configuration, to redo all versions. Maybe I should take up knitting, or gardening....
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I would really love to see the cam graph for this engine (http://8w.forix.com/penske-mercedes-pc23-pre-94-plans.html) because it used almost identical follower arrangements.
Based on you running that behind the scenes skunkworks for Toyota, I expect Ilmor to get you that info in the next few days. :-D
Ed
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There were rumors that some of the cams for Rollie Free's bike were ground backwards. Must have been easy to reverse the template. I don't remember if he ran them or not.
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Jim,
A stupid question for you. Did you re-establish top dead center on each cylinder before you degreed the cam for the second cylinder (rather than assume that it would be 80 degrees later)?
Tom
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Yes, I did. I bought one of those kits with the stoppers that thread into the plug holes. That sure makes it easy.
Anyway, I did every cam lobe twice, resetting my equipment each time to be sure my results would duplicate. Today I ran the cam I used in 2010 for the first 750 record and found similar problems.
Vinsky, do those Vincents have a similar design?
JimL
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Jim,
The Vincent did use followers, but the pushrod is just above the cam, not offset like the CX. I would think that they would still have to mirror the ramps the same as the CX if the cams were not cut the same way on each side. Up top, the motion takes a 90 degree turn to open the valves. Another interesting thing is they use two guides, one below and one above the rocker. In the 50's the engine was described as a semi-overhead cam.
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I checked rocker ratio with my Sig Erson wheel, based on lift at the valve and the cam. Our rocker ratio is basically 1:1. The Vincent looks like it is a little higher, I think.
Our problem is a slight shift in rocker ratio as the cam sweeps the follower pad. My next step is to put Prussian Blue on the follower pads and check sweep range on each rocker, with all the current grinds, to find out if we can get to the duration numbers I am targeting.
The "bumps" in the lift and close ramps graphing lines are caused by a squaring effect meeting the slightly curved pads on the followers. As we extend duration, that squaring effect will increase. That might be why the Ilmor pushrod Indy engine ran roller followers (along with durability for the time at high rpm).
Yep...I think knitting needles would be cheaper, but my old mechanics hands are so scarred up I'd get tangled in the yarn.
JimL
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Maybe you can see how symmetrical the lobes are and how easy they could be ground basakward.
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Yes, they are similar to my original camshafts it appears.
Thanks, JimL
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Many changes, including some different cam designs over the last year. Bike only wound up 10" longer and it looks like things are starting to fit.
This is a dummy engine. I have many bad blocks and heads, these days, useful for mocking stuff up.
JimL
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Short note about the pics above.....guess I didnt explain much. :oops:
I had some good advice from a friend who uses these type blowers making 500 hp from 240 inch engines, on the street, on pump gas. He told me, "It is not possible to make the blower mount too strong, or too heavy." There will be a strong bracket arrangement for the rear, also (Shown temporarily bolted during fabrication).
Thats the reason for the 1/4" cold rolled steel plate, doubled, with back bracing. Any oscillation of the blower itself will loosen every bolt or shear brackets. This will use a Gates automatic tensioner and a "draw roller" to straighten the belt web coming off the blower pulley. This method slightly shortens belt life, but allows longer periods of highest boost operation.
The window in the mount plate is for the forward exhaust header. That took a while to cut on my converted vertical woodworking bandsaw (jackshafts and pulleys to get down to 43 RPM for 14" wheel). Slow cutting, but gives a man time to think.
JimL
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I decided I needed an outboard bearing to support the drive belt tension. This is a "deep groove" Fafnir spindle bearing designed for a large mill, and good to 14,000 rpm+. The aluminum block is as big as I could safely swing in my lathe. I was able to get runout at the end of the crankshaft extension down to .001" before I installed the bearing support. The crank spins easily with the belt tensioned to the blower. The outboard carrier is mounted only to the engine, not to the motorcycle frame. I can never get the engine positioned well enough in the stud holes to be certain of assembly repeatability.
That outboard bearing can be replaced without removing the carrier by simply pulling the crankshaft bolt. I plan to bring spares and change often (along with belts).
The tensioner is for a GM product and belt tension is 85 lbs at this position. The mount plate for the tensioner has a "spring" bolt to adjust belt guide at the tensioner pulley. I was able to spin the crankshaft up to a little over 1000 rpm to get the alignment correct on this pulley. Spinning a single throw crank in an empty block is a pretty wild experience. The table shakes so bad that I had to climb on with the bike in order to get an Allen wrench into that "spring" bolt! A lot of tools wound up on the floor.
The belt cover in the second photo also serves as an outboard stiffener to the forward edge of the blower mount plate.
A lot of rework going into the frame, while all this is going on....looks like a mess, right now, but bear with me folks. It'll get better when welds get finished, corner braces get added, and Hammerite paint goes on!
JimL