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Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Bruin on October 09, 2013, 09:11:45 PM



Title: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 09, 2013, 09:11:45 PM
After running my XR 500 solo for 5 years at BUB I decided to get jiggy and add a sidecar to it. I always liked sidecars since the Great Escape movie and the family that rides together, stays together. With the help of my friends on team STD I hope to be ready to ride for BUB 2014.Right now I'm gathering info, checking the rules, and scrounging for parts. As usual STD is on a "Making Doo" budget. The rig is going to be mounted on the left side for kickstart clearance. I slapped a few garage pieces together to start conceptualizing the build. Suggestions, tips and comments welcome.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 09, 2013, 11:36:45 PM
The colors clash.  The bike needs to be painted like the sidecar.  Maybe that pinkish color with a light brown dot at the front of the fairing.   


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Jon on October 10, 2013, 01:39:08 AM
Why does the sidecar have so much frontal area?

Cheers
jon


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 10, 2013, 01:58:34 AM
Yo Bo, The whole thing will be painted cherry red like the bike. I save pink for my underwear. The car fairing looks a little bigger than it is but that is just the starting size. It will be cut down to fit my monkey as close as possible. And that fairing may yet be swapped out depending on what else I scrounge up.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 10, 2013, 02:21:36 AM
This is a better shot at what the host bike looks like. My best speed topped at 106.8 mph. Not a record contender but not bad for a stock thumper engine.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 10, 2013, 10:38:20 AM
This is what I have: A 1982 XR 500 modified frame, partial streamline, fuel class bike. APS-AF #5350. I run gas in it, the fuel designation is for convenience of fill-ups. The engine is 100% stock, the carb slightly oversize with a straight pipe exhaust. The fork tubes are lowered and the rear is rigid. It has a 75 wheelbase, rake 5 to 7 depending on where you set the tubes in the triple tree. Personal best speed is 106.8 mph.
What I'm looking to build. A BUB legal sidecar mounted on the left for kick arm clearance. Not sure about the outrigger size-type of wheel yet, depends on what I can scrounge, but as a hack dedicated to straight line salt racing, it looks like 0 toe-in and 0 lean (depending on outrigger wheel weight, the rule of thumb I saw is 20%) And spaced for the required 32" minimum track. I'm looking at mounting it a little forward, near halfway to be close to the center of gravity. I only need to turn on and off the track. To fit the bike on the trailer I think it will need to be a bolt-on rig. I'm building it with the intent of having a monkey and an appropriately sized fairing for her. But will also be prepared to run with weights (132 lbs).


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 11, 2013, 10:05:58 AM
I've been cogitating about what tire to put on the outrigger. Several have been suggested, motorcycle, bicycle, trailer, dragster, even wheelchair. Some have merit, some would court disaster. Then it dawned on me, a high speed racing go kart wheel! Nice size at 10" high, some are only 3" wide, and they are available as slicks. They are used on carts at speeds far over 100 mph. And they are affordable.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 11, 2013, 11:03:01 AM
A kart tire will work jut fine.  Except for the fact that a certain part of the SCTA's anatomy puckers at the thought of such thing.  Despite its safety being proved over several years of running.  Minimal frontal area should be the target.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img210/7135/img2652m.jpg)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 11, 2013, 11:38:25 AM
Nortonist, Nice outside the box rig. Hopefully BUB won't pucker as easily at my wheel.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 11, 2013, 12:36:23 PM
It was fine until they got their panties in a wad over speed ratings.  I was given a 130 limit n the kart tire some years go.  Went over that last year and was told to change.  So I built an aluminum wheel.  Messed them up even more.  Didn't get to run El Mirage this year but did run Bonneville.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img18/2853/img2874fp.jpg)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on October 11, 2013, 04:17:21 PM
Bruin...........I think your going to have some fun............and you have a good basic design to make the build on a budget.  I have a small amount of experience on my part.......maybe helpful to you.  Bolt on is good..........sturdy plate on rear of bike frame.........adjustable upper and lower A-arm-type rods up front.

Plan on a very minor amount of toe-in to compensate for the side-flex against your mother-ship frame.  That side-pressure will also influence bushings, bearings, rear-wheel flex and traction at speed. The drag will have a 'pulling' effect to the side on the front and typically requires a fatter front tire.............on pavement a flat-profile works best.

I rode an ASCOT for a few years and taught my wife and daughter to ride on it.  Bigger carb, bigger jets, bigger output sprocket, and a stock muffler gave me the best performance. It sounded fast with a hollowed out mega..........but had better mid-range with the stock muffler and header.  Check your clutch for the added weight.

Keep us posted................there should be some more experienced help on the design as you get into it.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 11, 2013, 11:26:52 PM
Old Scrambler, congrats again on your 88+ run, well done. I'm keeping an eye open for a tuned XR muffler. What do you think about the manifold reed? My understanding is that it helps low end power but it seems an open throat would be best at wide open. (I found a smoothbore insert to swap with the reed.)
Nortonist, One of my peeps came through with a racing go kart wheel, a 10" tall slick front tire. It's a little fat but the price was perfect. It seems the metal wheels are growing in popularity. Is the ride a little rougher? Since the Kart wheel is about 5" wide and slick, I kinda wonder how much corrective toe-in counter steering it will add on the salt.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 12, 2013, 01:00:46 AM
Sounds like you have the identical kart wheel as I had.  I ran my wheel with zero toe in.  I gave it a bit of lean to (probably stupidly) try and reduce the contact area.  I never had any problems with it.  I had planned to run the aluminum wheel rigid as I had done with the kart wheel.  But I was persuaded to add suspension by some others that run solid wheels.  If you look at the photo you'll see I built a small swing arm set up and it worked amazingly well.  Never even knew the wheel was there during a run.



Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 12, 2013, 11:02:01 AM
If a racing Kart wheel is rated 130 mph, I'm probably safe since my best solo speed is 106. Did BUB say anything about a metal air stem on the Kart wheel? I wonder if pumping up the tire pressure will give it a little belly bulge and a narrower footprint. It looks like several sidecar rigs run monkey free. Is that because it is hard to find a monkey weighing less than 132 lbs with a 2 inch wind profile? A couple members of my race team are interested in riding along but they are regular sized humans.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on October 12, 2013, 12:43:36 PM
I like the exhaust-port smooth-bore insert as long as it is no smaller in flow-size as the exhaust value area.  Thanks for the compliment.......we have plans to return in 2014 for more speed.

On one run this year we removed the mega and added a 10" straight extension to the exhaust..............it was the slowest run and had the best wind advantage :roll:



Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 12, 2013, 01:25:29 PM
As I'm sure you know kart tires are not speed rated.  My tire was given a 130 limit by Tom Evans, then head of motorcycle tech with the SCTA and a man of great common sense.  What BUB would say about a kart tire I don't know.  Might be worth checking.  The SCTA requires 10% of the o.a. weight of the outfit to be on the sidecar wheel.   I had 50 lbs on the wheel so I never really worried too much about the footprint/drag relationship.  A kart wheel is so small I think the lack of frontal area more than makes up for its footprint.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on October 12, 2013, 01:41:37 PM
Sidecar passengers are not called monkeys..........they are called passengers, co-riders.....not monkeys...............Monkeys are the people that call sidecar passengers....Monkeys........................................................................


If you need some info,. regarding setting up a sidecar outfit contact me....been there done that...............


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 12, 2013, 03:28:05 PM
Thanks for weighing in bak189, rest assured my use of the term monkey was endearing and not derogatory. My passenger-partner-wife  took it lightheartedly. But a more official term might help with further recruitment. I'm a blind pilgrim in the night when it comes to sidecars. I've done just enough homework to be dangerous. My big challenge is to build on a razor thin budget. Mounting tips and associated hardware are what I'm looking into now.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 12, 2013, 05:49:50 PM
I can understand your "razor thin budget".   Mine spends most of its time on life support.  After Bonneville this year we had a memorial service.  As far as mounting it goes I doubt I can be of any help.  My set up is so much different to what you have.  I usually try to visualize what I want and build it in my head.  If its any help my platform is 1/4" T6061.  The struts are 7/8" heavy wall tubing with 3/8" ball joints.  The nice thing (so far) is the rules for sidecars are fairly free.  So imagine it and build it.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: manta22 on October 12, 2013, 08:11:11 PM
BAK189;

The term "monkey" has been a common term for the sidecar passenger for as long as I can remember. It came from the necessary climbing up & over the bike to redistribute weight in motorcycle sidecar racing. It seemed like one needed the agility of a monkey to perform those maneuvers. It is not a derogatory term at all.

Street riders may have never heard the term but it is well-established among racers.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: racefanwfo on October 13, 2013, 12:03:54 AM
In the 80's i had the chance to be the monkey on an EML motocross sidehack powered by a 750 kawasaki  triple two stroke. I was always proud to tell anyone that would listen that i was the monkey.  :cheers:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: saltwheels262 on October 13, 2013, 04:50:30 PM

If you need some info,. regarding setting up a sidecar outfit contact me....

that is a whole lotta info he is offering up.
Bob Bakker can pretty much tell you anything you're going to need to know.
a whole lot of experience there.

he can tell you the shortest way to the top of Pikes Peak,
if that might interest you.

franey


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 15, 2013, 04:54:26 PM
If a racing Kart wheel is rated 130 mph,

My kart tire wasn't rated at 130.  It was given a 130 rating by Tom Evans, the then head of motorcycle tech with the SCTA.   Kart tires don't have speed ratings on them.  This is where the current problem with kart tires and the SCTA lies.  I dug out as much info on my tire as I could and presented it to the SCTA.  There followed a long discussion and Tom (a man of great common sense) said i could run but gave me a limit of 130.  As of this moment kart tires are a nono with the SCTA.  As is any non speed rated tire.  I have no idea how BUB feels about kart tires.  It would be best to check with them before you show up to run.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 15, 2013, 06:20:35 PM
Here is the kart tire I hope to use. I would like to think a racing kart tire, known for running an excess of 130 mph, is any less appropriate than some trailer tire. But asking is the best course.
Also attached are three muffler choices for my wife's 250 Triumph. Straight pipe, open tube, shorty, and tunable cone. It would seem the tunable cone is the obvious choice but as is it chokes the flowed head.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on October 15, 2013, 08:05:09 PM
250cc Superkarts run a different tire to the normal kart. Speeds in excess 130 are the norm. I'm not sure about the Maxxis rating but Bridgestone might be able to give you one. I found this for a start http://www.hoosiertire.com/specsk.htm

My info might be dated but check it anyway. Good Luck. Mikey.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 15, 2013, 10:52:50 PM
My kart tire is a Bridgestone YHC.  It was (maybe still is) a spec tire for a 125 shifter class and a 360 lb. class (combined weight of driver and kart).  And like the Hoosier specs, no speed rating.  I downloaded about three pages of info from the Bridgestone site.  Four years ago it was OK.  But they way he SCTA has gone without a speed rating you are dead in the water.  I would download as much info as possible and forward it to the tech committee at BUB and see what happens.  The head of the SCTA motorcycle committee was at SEMA last year and spoke with Wayne Rainey (former MotoGP racer who was paralyzed in a crash and now races superkarts) about my tire.  Rainey got ll the details and said he wouldn't trust it over 95 mph.  This was after the sidecar set a record at Bonneville of 128.703 with a couple of runs over 130 and at the Sept. El Mirage meet ran a record 130.244.  I asked who do you believe?  My records certs or Rainey?  But that is all history with the changes the SCTA made. 


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on October 15, 2013, 11:22:09 PM
Read the AMA Supplemental Regulations...2.R.....You call the shots, if you feel safe with that tire, go for it...............For many years I ran a 5 inch wheel on the chair using a Goodyear tire that many years ago was used on the front of top fuel dragsters.....However, in 2008 the tire was showing old age and cracks
and due to the fact Goodyear did not make that size anymore I replaced the chair wheel with a 2 1/2 x 17 again a top fuel front wheel and Goodyear racing front runner tire........very small foot-print with that combination, because we always race our outfit with a passenger we have 1/8 inch toe-in on the chair wheel.....If you run without a passenger and use the 60kg ballast that per AMA regulations has to be mounted in the chair, it is OK to run the wheel straight (less drag)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 15, 2013, 11:47:53 PM
AMA 2R basically says I can use what I deem safe though they recommend a tire rated in excess of your expected speed. If this tire has consistently proved itself at over 130mph, by track racing Karts, and similar tires run as fast doing LSR, I'm feeling good about using it for a 90-100mph attempt. 


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: SaltPeter on October 16, 2013, 12:08:52 AM
I was looking at building a Sidecar and looked into using Kart wheel on the "Chair".

250 International Karts run 6" diameter rims - tyres/tires.

All of the Kart Regulating Bodies ( CIK etc ) that I could find, indicate that these 250 Karts run in excess 0f 240kph/149mph.

So I suppose it might need a Rule submission, maybe.

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 16, 2013, 12:34:53 AM
Some superkarts run way over 149.  What no one seems to take into consideration is the fact that a kart wheel used as a sidecar wheel for LSR is no subject to the same forces as if it were raced on a track.  It also does not have to carry the same load.  SCTA only requires 10% of the o.a. weight to be on the sidecar wheel.  I carry 60 lbs. on mine.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 16, 2013, 01:40:32 AM
BUB AMA want a rider or 132 lbs of dead weight. An old riding buddy (45 years) is going to ride the hack. I figure we ought to build it with a 200 lb load in mind. Harry may be less aerodynamic and weigh more than a lead brick but we have more chuckles.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 18, 2013, 11:20:15 AM
I scrounged up some stainless steel a/c conduit. Split they make some good sized 43 x 60 sheets that I hope to use as fairing material. But I am finding the stainless to be harder to work with my hand tools. My snips didn't hack it, I had to use a grinder cutting disk to split the tube. It's not impossible to work but compared to sheet aluminum I'm going to have to wield a bigger hammer.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 18, 2013, 09:43:41 PM
Trying to visualize the platform location and dimensions. A prone position length, mid shin to helmet plus 7" for a fairing bubble runs from the front of the engine to the back of the rear tire (67"). On a 78" wheelbase it looks looong to me. The track is the minimum 32".


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 19, 2013, 05:55:20 PM
Switching the rig's wheel to the right side will keep the rider out of the shifting linkage and away from the chain housing. I can lick the kick start clearance problem with a cutout in the platform, and perhaps a trap door. There is also better access to the bottom rail for mounts. I am moving the gas tank from behind my butt to the hollow below the back bone. It will require a fuel pump. The blue dot is the center of gravity with rider. Still playing with the rig wheel location. The shop dog is Roxy, lead fabricator.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 19, 2013, 06:07:48 PM
With the gas tank moved from behind me bum to the bottom rail, there is clearance to stretch out for better streamlining. The rear pegs will have to be moved to the back of the rear tire but as I read the BUB altered frame/sidecar rules, I can do that.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 19, 2013, 10:56:15 PM
Think stainless is hard to work with?  Try titanium.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on October 19, 2013, 11:06:22 PM
For sidecar road racing the sidecar spindle between 10 to 12 inches lead (ahead) of the rear wheel spindle (on a front engine sidecar, other specs on modern rear engine sidecars) ......However, for LSR (only straight line) 12 to 15 inches has worked well for us..................Remember, as per rules if you run a passenger you need a sidecar fender ....and a handhold other then the sidecar mounting tubing.......Also the minimum of 32 inches track is measured from center of rear tire to center of sidecar tire........................Have fun..............

PS. There are no "altered frame/sidecar rules" only sidecar rules


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on October 20, 2013, 02:12:03 AM
Hey Bruin, this is an interesting project. I hear you on the stainless and the lead fabricator looks as nervous as I am about that stubborn material :-D I hope it all works out for you. I'm subscribed. Mikey.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 20, 2013, 04:45:43 PM
Don't you love it when the parts for modifications are found in the scrap bin? The frame builder, Ed Bennett, made a push bar that fit in the rear tubes of the bike. Some creative cutting gave me two very workable mounts. It is nice to have choices. Stretching out and getting the right angle bend out of my knees should pass the wind much better.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on October 21, 2013, 10:28:58 AM
Your Welcome.....................


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 21, 2013, 06:02:50 PM
I was thinking about your streamlining plans.  Fiberglass is so much easier to use than steel (stainless or otherwise).  All I can do with metal is put dents in it. 


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 21, 2013, 06:56:49 PM
I've seen some great fiberglass work on bike fairings, how easy it is depends on your skill set. I've made seat pans and a lumpy fender (glass over an existing fender as a mold). By the time I re-glassed the boo boos and bondo-ed the rest I could have made it out of cash. I do not have a clue how to approach something the size and complexity of a fairing. Denting, bending, fold, mutilate and rivet, that I can do. The key is to keep expectations low.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on October 21, 2013, 09:15:23 PM
I'd really be tempted to find some aluminum. It forms, drills and welds much easier and it's way easier to eliminate sharp edges.  :-D :-D :-D

Even if you have to pay for it you'll be way further ahead.

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 21, 2013, 10:54:21 PM
Aluminum dents.  Fiberglass is easy.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on October 21, 2013, 11:06:02 PM
Bill, I totally agree. Fiberglass is probably the easiest and fastest to use. When I made the suggestion of aluminum it was as opposed to stainless steel. I hate the thought of sharp stainless edges.

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 21, 2013, 11:13:49 PM
I hate the thought of wasting an aluminum sheet trying to make it anything but flat.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on October 21, 2013, 11:35:11 PM
For sidecar road racing the sidecar spindle between 10 to 12 inches lead (ahead) of the rear wheel spindle (on a front engine sidecar, other specs on modern rear engine sidecars) ......However, for LSR (only straight line) 12 to 15 inches has worked well for us..................Remember, as per rules if you run a passenger you need a sidecar fender ....and a handhold other then the sidecar mounting tubing.......Also the minimum of 32 inches track is measured from center of rear tire to center of sidecar tire........................Have fun..............

This handy information has been added to my reference files. Thanks Bob!  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 22, 2013, 02:03:15 AM
I envy glass skills and the knowledge to apply them but barring a generous glasser moving in next door, I will have to go by our team motto, and my personal belief, make do with what you have. I am thinking long and hard about using the stainless. I suppose I could wear gloves and roll the edges so they would not be sharp but there is a second consideration. Some of the bike is already sheathed in aluminum and when you mate different materials like aluminum and steel there is a galvanic reaction. It can be negated by insulating the seams where they meet but sticking to one or the other seems appropriate. I will say that with an extra grunt the stainless steel does bend to one's will.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: DND on October 22, 2013, 06:29:11 AM
Hi Briun

You are taking the term. ' Rear Sets ' to a new level or should I say distance

Neat project

G Don


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 24, 2013, 11:13:13 AM
I conferred with a sheet metal guy (neighbor) and learned there are more than a few tricks to working with stainless steel. Like, you can't let it get hot, even the heat of drilling a hole, or it gets brittle. Not good news if you can't weld and have to drill and rivet aplenty. So I displayed my best whipped puppy face and he is going to hook me up with some aluminum for the body.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: manta22 on October 25, 2013, 12:08:16 PM
I conferred with a sheet metal guy (neighbor) and learned there are more than a few tricks to working with stainless steel. Like, you can't let it get hot, even the heat of drilling a hole, or it gets brittle. Not good news if you can't weld and have to drill and rivet aplenty. So I displayed my best whipped puppy face and he is going to hook me up with some aluminum for the body.

I think your neighbor was pulling your leg.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 25, 2013, 08:42:37 PM
Aluminum.  The wonder metal.

The book "The Racing Motorcycle" Volume 2, has a lot of info about metal alloys, their properties, handling and working, etc.  Just like all metals, it is worth it to know the alloy and temper you are using. This way, when you find something you like, you know what to order for next time.

The basic 0.020 thick sheets from Ace Hardware are easy to work, anneal OK, and get nice and tough after work hardening.  They are from the 2000 series and they do pit from salt corrosion.  That is the only problem I have had with them.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 25, 2013, 09:54:32 PM
I didn't realize sheet aluminum could be annealed. I just looked it up, rub it with bar soap, torch it till the soap chars, and bend it like chewing gum. I'm interested in giving this a try. Is forming it enough to work harden?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 25, 2013, 10:39:44 PM
I've been told that after annealing it forms a lot easier but I've never tried it.  I've also been told it work hardens.  Me?  I'll stick with 'glass.  It doesn't work harden and as I have no skill I find it easier to work.  When you start this project please post lots of photos. 


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on October 25, 2013, 10:51:37 PM
If you're annealing it with oxy/acetylene all you do is blacken it with an acetylene rich flame and then burn the black off with a neutral flame. Be gentle with the latter or you're likely to melt the aluminum. The aluminum will be soft after this treatment. When you work the aluminum some more it will harden again and you can re-anneal it. I've used this method when forming tank ends from 6061 aluminum. It works.

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 25, 2013, 11:38:59 PM
Do you know if it will work with a home butane torch? (Tools at hand.)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on October 25, 2013, 11:43:46 PM
Unfortunately I don't. I have the oxy/acetylene at hand. I would try it on fairly light material in a relatively small area to see if it can be achieved. Good luck!

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on October 25, 2013, 11:54:24 PM
I've been told that after annealing it forms a lot easier but I've never tried it.  I've also been told it work hardens.  Me?  I'll stick with 'glass.  It doesn't work harden and as I have no skill I find it easier to work.  When you start this project please post lots of photos. 
That's why I got into glass in the beginning. Very few tools required and you can make mistakes without too much of a backlash. The metals are all great and I love them but I think Bruin might battle a bit having limited experience and not having a lot of metal working tools. My experience is that he'll find he needs more and more equipment as the job progresses. Bruin, take the simplest route on this one. Believe me and beware of neighbors. They're not always what they're cracked up to be.  :-D
Bruin, listen to Nortonist.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 26, 2013, 01:39:17 AM
When you talk about glass, are you talking about building a positive and negative form for the fairing? I would not have a clue how to proceed. I'm thinking it would take time and skill and you would need shop room and no small amount of supplies. For aluminum, I just make trial patterns out of cardboard, cut, bend, and rivet. I've got zippo room, no heat, and with winter arriving, cure times for glass would be brutal. Don't get me wrong, a nice glass fairing would be far superior to what I can bend, but like Dirty Harry once said, "A man's got to know his limitations." And heck, I'm in it for the fun of doing something challenging and perhaps creative... within my amateur skill set... and my expectations are low. I'll take pictures of the effort.

And guys, I do appreciate all the tips.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on October 26, 2013, 03:02:43 AM
We understand. You'll get it right one way or another. :cheers:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on October 26, 2013, 08:42:50 AM
Just a thought.....don't you think you need to start at the beginning...like built the sidecar frame, and mount it to the bike.................Just a thought........


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 26, 2013, 09:53:47 AM
Your point of starting with the sidecar frame is 100% right on. I am collaborating with my co-pilot, an aeronautic engineer, on the design and build of the sidecar. The rub is that he lives 1/2 way across the country so the going is slow and coordination tricky. I'm trying to get away from my usual last minute build, arriving at Bonneville with wet paint ways. So right now I'm rustling up parts, planning patterns, and hope to do what I can away from the sidecar mounting points... like the tail end and a little up front. And some of the other mods I have in mind to help the bike do its best.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 26, 2013, 08:27:49 PM
When you talk about glass, are you talking about building a positive and negative form for the fairing? I would not have a clue how to proceed. I'm thinking it would take time and skill and you would need shop room and no small amount of supplies. For aluminum, I just make trial patterns out of cardboard, cut, bend, and rivet. I've got zippo room, no heat, and with winter arriving, cure times for glass would be brutal. Don't get me wrong, a nice glass fairing would be far superior to what I can bend, but like Dirty Harry once said, "A man's got to know his limitations." And heck, I'm in it for the fun of doing something challenging and perhaps creative... within my amateur skill set... and my expectations are low. I'll take pictures of the effort.

And guys, I do appreciate all the tips.

If you are going into production or are an anal retentive perfectionist there is really no need to make a female mould.  Its a one off so working from a male mould is fine.  Yes it takes a bit of time to make a male mould.  Not as long as you might think though.

You got zippo room.  Welcome to my world.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img443/3157/img2425q.jpg)


Winters coming on.  Long cure times.  That's what your wife's hair dryer is for.

Last winter I made a new body.  The "mould" was built on the sidecar and consisted of corrugated paper, masking tape and a coating of jointing compound aka drywall mud.  The mud sands easy and smooth.  Rather than spend a fortune trying to seal it I used some low tack spray adhesive and aluminum foil.  The foil being the release agent (and the wife never missed the roll).  Resin doesn't stick to it.


(http://imageshack.us/a/img528/9028/img2384y.jpg)

And covered in foil.  Some resin and matt and viola!  you have a body.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img542/4950/img2345x.jpg)

The air scoops were even more simple.  No foil just release wax.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img194/8764/img2390fs.jpg)

I don't mean to hijack your thread.  Its just glass is so easy compared to pounding aluminum.




Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 26, 2013, 10:21:48 PM
Nortonist, your garage has that nice "lived in" look I so admire. And I envy the elbow room.  :-D  My little two car garage has never seen a car. I house 10 motorcycles. I have to roll 2 or three out to get the elbow room you see in the previous pictures. I have to play parking valet before playing knuckle buster. Granted, to get the fine results you have, glass did the trick. Thanks for posting those pictures, it was nice to get an idea how that stuff is done. I suppose once you have the blank, it's a breeze. Tinfoil is a good tip, When I glassed the front fender I used masking tape. Besides the bubbles, highs and lows, it was a bear to get off the blank.(Old steel fender) Plenty of WD-40 and a water soak finally freed it. And then I put some heir of the Bondo family fortune through college. And it still looks like a crater faced teenager but it'll pass at a distance and do the job.

Given my poor skills, mediocre expectations, and high need to do what people say I shouldn't do, I think I'm in the right medium, aluminum.

To further educate me, because I never say never, what do you estimate your glass body cost in material, tools, and glass?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 26, 2013, 10:59:13 PM
A scrounger's work is never done. I managed to swap some stainless steel sheets for two 5'6" x 43" sheets of thin gauge aluminum. Burrito roll the bike, pinch the ends, and Bob's your uncle.

On the floor is my collection of cables from... you don't want to know. I think I can link a couple together and work the rear brake with the front brake lever.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 26, 2013, 11:00:31 PM
The plates on my fairing are the size they are for a reason.  One plate could be made in 40 minutes before I went to work in the morning and one or two plates could be made after I finished dinner and my chores and before I logged onto Landracing-dot-com before bed.  It took awhile to make the parts.  Like Nortonist says, glass can be faster.

Look up "Steib sidecars" on the i-net.  They have some shapes that are easy to make out of metal.

One thing to consider is the ventilation where you work.  In my case, I have a poorly ventilated work area in the winter when I need to keep the doors and windows closed.  Health issues.  Also, there is a gas water heater and space heater in there.  Explosion potential.  Fumes go right up through the cracks in the floor and into the house.  People complaining problem.  Glass might not be an indoor project in the winter if your work area is like mine.

  

  

  


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 26, 2013, 11:06:47 PM
That shot was taken right after I sold off two Hondas to help finance Bonneville so there was a lot of room.  It has since shrunk considerably.  The cost of the body?  Not certain.  A gallon of resin, a couple of bags of glass, one bag of woven glass,  a box of 1" throwaway brushes from Harbor Freight, an $8 roller from the local fiberglass shop (worth every penny) and a few pair of rubber gloves, a couple of tubs of mud and the corrugated paper was free.  $50 or so.  Not a bank breaker.

As I said all I can do to aluminum is put dents in it.  I have a fascination and admiration of those who can shape metal.  When you do start please post progress photos.  I'd love to see how its done.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 26, 2013, 11:20:17 PM
One thing to consider is the ventilation where you work.  In my case, I have a poorly ventilated work area in the winter when I need to keep the doors and windows closed.  Health issues.  Also, there is a gas water heater and space heater in there.  Explosion potential.  Fumes go right up through the cracks in the floor and into the house.  People complaining problem.  Glass might not be an indoor project in the winter if your work area is like mine.

You reminded of a time when I lived in Ireland.  I had a small unheated workshop.  The only heat was from an outer primary chaincase cover turned upside down and filled with a quart or so left over methanol.  Worked fine except your eyes watered a bit.  I can understand the problem of getting glass to gel when its freezing.  I used a small blowtorch to try and get it hot enough.  Occasionally there would be a woof! as the glass lit.  Then it was open the door and throw it out into the snow.  Clean out the mould and try it again.  I don't miss those days.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 27, 2013, 09:49:38 PM
The extreme rear-set peg strut was salvaged from a push bar, and ended in an open tube. To prevent the mount bolt from flopping around in the lumen I filled it with a section of 1" aluminum bar stock and sealed it with some low temp aluminum weld. Drilled it for a 3/8" bolt. Since the strength will come from the steel tube, the plug is just a glorified spacer. It was all done with the lo-tech talent, tools, and parts on hand. I think I can hang a boot on it.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 28, 2013, 04:30:25 PM
Out of curiosity.  Those footrests are waaaaay back.  Are you going to fit some kneeler trays to help with support?  Pegs that far back can have you playing the lead role in the ballet "The Nutcracker".


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 28, 2013, 06:44:36 PM
Yeah, I'm going for the Rolly Free planking look. Rather develop my quads, hammies, and abs, I'll rest my legs on a shelf.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 29, 2013, 09:35:34 PM
One reason I'm trying to get an early start on my bike this year is that each season I have to prepare two bikes. My XR 500 and my wife's 250 Triumph. Her spark plug hole had been repaired by a helicoil insert. After this BUB event I noticed a couple of the thread coils were dinged so I took it in to the head shop for a repair. The guy inspected the valves and found boo-boos on the titanium intake valve. The guide is in good shape. I got a new one and he ground it in. The exhaust valve is in good shape. He put a Time-cert in the plug hole.

Inspecting the valve, there is some flaking of its coating. does not appear bent, and there is no impact damage on the face. The season before we did tune it too lean and toasted the piston/rings. Don't know if this is the cause but I'm glad it got spotted and repaired before her next high speed run.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 29, 2013, 09:44:57 PM
Nortonist, Here is a picture of my garage, and as it is, there is one bike out and in a pro shop. I need to roll two or three out to work on one. I'm not complaining, it's an embarrassment of riches... ie junkers.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on October 29, 2013, 10:31:11 PM
Bruin, If you suddenly got lucky and got a huge workshop it would end up looking the same. It's the nature of the beast, brother!!! It's what we do. Bikers are a little worse for some reason. I keep having clean outs and within no time at all it's back to being overcrowded. You just need to hang a lot more stuff from the ceiling though. It's a little unbalanced. :-D :-D I feel your pain. Mikey.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 29, 2013, 10:59:47 PM
Mikey, True that. Nature hates a vacuum. When I used to backpack there was a saying. "Want to lighten you load? Get a smaller pack." Cause you fill whatever you have. Cars in a garage, what a notion.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 30, 2013, 12:04:09 AM
I see what you mean Bruin.  Mikey is right though.  We fight a losing battle.  Mine can swallow large part whole.  Kind of the Bermuda triangle of garages.  I do a clean out now and then but I think the junk sneaks back in at night.  It would be nice to have a huge workshop to fill up with even more junk.  I'll also confess to hoarding junk.  I may not have an immediate use for something but I can see a use maybe at some time so I hang onto it.  That goes back a long ways. 


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 30, 2013, 10:19:26 AM
I hold onto stuff until I forget I have it, then it's like Christmas when I rediscover it. And I'm sure old worn brake shoes will become "hip" again.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on October 30, 2013, 10:49:53 AM
I can't even find the stuff I used this morning!. I swear I spend half my day looking for tools.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: manta22 on October 30, 2013, 12:02:10 PM
I blame it on elves who sneak into the shop during the night and re-distribute things-- particularly the tools I'll be using the next day. Pesky little buggers!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on October 30, 2013, 12:41:27 PM
That's why I quit stick welding except on very rare occasions. No matter where I put the chipping hammer down it gets moved before I get a chance to use it again. The never ending search is exhausting!  :roll: :roll: :roll:

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on October 30, 2013, 01:28:26 PM
Just last night I changed brake pads on Nancy's car, and I swear - I spent more time trying to find the portable shop light than I did changing the pads.  I did finally find it -- still in the race trailer.  Why'd I take it to Bville where the light is so bright?  You're welcome to ignore the question, but still . . .


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 30, 2013, 03:21:25 PM
Slim,  I can guarantee you had the shop light in your hand before you went to change the brake pads.  When you went to get the pads it sneaked back into the trailer.   A few weeks ago I found my Lucas mag that vanished about five years ago.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Glen on October 30, 2013, 05:40:42 PM
Everyday I go into my shop and wonder what I was going to do, so my wife says what are you doing and I said nuthing, she said that's what I said yesterday and I said I wasn't finished.She shook her head and left me alone. :roll: :cheers:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 30, 2013, 06:39:37 PM
My tools don't go too far, it seems the cheap stuff sticks around. But anything that can roll, spring, or gets launched by a power tool, travels to a different dimension.
Today I lowered the triple tree down the fork tubes changing the 4-1/2" ground clearance to 3-1/3". That changed the trail from 7" to 5-1/2"   It reduced front end flop significantly. I figure that since the sidecar will pull the bike to the side, I ought to have some good geometry up front. (Maximizing what I have anyway.)
I checked the empty weight of the bike and got nearly 150 lbs on both the front and back tires. (Totaling 300 according to an old bathroom scale.)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 30, 2013, 07:06:25 PM

Today  I figure that since the sidecar will pull the bike to the side,

That's where the sidecar wheel placement comes in.  The farther forward the less pull to the side when accelerating but turning to whatever side the sidecar is on becomes more difficult.  The farther back the more it will pull when accelerating but will be easier to turn on the sidecar side.  That's more for road use.  With LSR it becomes less relevant.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 30, 2013, 09:42:47 PM
Rig wheel forward for straight line (Do not pass center of gravity), rig wheel toward rear for handling, is what I have picked up from tips and homework. While I have heard people suggest the number of inches forward they have set their wheels,  I have not heard what I think is the more useful number, the percent of wheelbase they set the rig wheel at. (Since our bikes tend to have different wheelbases. One distance I am considering came from sidecar Wally's report of 36" forward on a 109" wheelbase. That is 33%. So on my 75.5 WB, it equates to 25"

Nortonist, scoops are a breeze with aluminum.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 30, 2013, 11:06:54 PM
Nortonist, scoops are a breeze with aluminum.

That's only because your talented.  I can put beautiful dents in aluminum. 

 My sidecar has a 108" w.b.  I run the sidecar wheel 10" ahead of the rear wheel.  Works fine for me.  But as I said I don't believe the sidecar wheel position in relation to the rear wheel is too important in straight line racing.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 31, 2013, 12:20:38 AM
I am amazed that there is so much variety and choice in sidecar wheel placement for LSR. Basically, I want the location that lends itself to straight line running and safe handling. I figure my turns will be wide and slow.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on October 31, 2013, 09:37:39 AM
Keep in mind that Nortonist has the engine in the rear.......and he has only 50lbs in the chair...
the specs. are other for front engine AND a passenger...................



Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on October 31, 2013, 09:44:48 AM
75 inch WB.......25 inches lead on the chair wheel....with front engine and a passenger.......I certainly hope you and your passenger have good medical insurance.......but then it appears you have it all sorted out....so have fun while you can......................................................


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 31, 2013, 11:25:45 AM
bak189, you have an excellent point about the engine placement and rig load. Your tip to place our wheel 12 to 15" before the rear is still on my list. If anyone sees me wandering into unsafe waters please let me know. I can do dumb stuff when it is just me but I won't risk the safety of my passenger.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on October 31, 2013, 04:14:53 PM
It should be noted that street sidecar outfit, Moto X outfit, roadracing outfit, "Wheel on a stick" outfit, a outfit without a passenger, have NOTHING in common (except for the 3rd wheel) with a LRS outfit using a passenger that work properly and steers straight at speed.......for one thing you need as little sidecar tire contact on the ground as possible (using a kart wheel and tire is way to much tire to ground contact....Kart tires are made to go around corners with as much contact as possible)...We have used a 17x2 1/2 wheel and tire at 50lbs pressure with about maybe 1 inch tire contact to the ground. A properly set up LSR sidecar will not pull either way (left or right) A LSR outfit has to be adjusted to the weight of the passenger and where he/she rides on the platform....has to be adjusted to bike leanin/leanout according to the bikes suspension....has to be adjusted how much sidecar wheel toe/in (again to the location and weight of the passenger) If you got the sidecar wheel to far back in relation to the rear wheel (and using a passenger) at speed not enough weight on the front wheel of the bike to steer properly.....To far forward, and the whole outfit will pull on acceleration. These are just a few points how to build a proper LSR outfit. I have been building road racing sidecars for over 50 years....learning how to make a LSR sidecar work safely took a lot of time and testing.....Our outfits have seen 162mph on salt and 187mph on tarmac all using a passenger at all times. Which makes our sidecars the fastest in the World USING A PASSENGER.  "REAL RACING SIDECARS ALWAYS HAVE A PASSENGER IN THE CHAIR"


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 31, 2013, 05:06:42 PM
We understand there will be a dial-in learning curve for handling and will design the hack to be fully adjustable, toe & lean. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like good sense to locate the platform's center of gravity near the bike's C of G. And after much reflection I have decided against a full plank position for the driver, the frame is not long enough and it shifts too much weight off the front and onto the rear, (Fully laid out my heels reach the back of the rear tire). I'm thinking I don't want the front end floating. Empty, the bike has a 50:50 weight distribution front and rear. I am looking at the more traditional kneeling jockey position, lower half shielded in the fairing. I can see the sense of a narrow rig footprint, we'll see if Santa wants to trade for what we already have.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 31, 2013, 06:25:11 PM
Shop dog Roxy says, "Trick or treat."


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 31, 2013, 10:21:03 PM
The 500 xr had been hovering around 104 last year and this year. I was using a long air filter mount (to clear the frame) and oversized K&N filter. I pulled them and put on this homemade velocity stack. (The stainless steel liner of a drink cup) Speed increased to 106.8 with no other changes.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 01, 2013, 10:51:17 AM
Well, I decided to forgo fun and funky for responsible and practical. The ride like Rolly Free plank position is out, the kneel to conformity position is in. (Arrrrgh) Basically, that is how I've been running and the bike runs true and handles beautifully. The big change will be adding knee planks and moving the gas tank from behind my butt onto the bottom rail (with pump). That will allow me to hunker down a few more inches. Then wrap the whole kabob in a legs enclosed sidecar-ish fairing. Below is a crude concept image sans hack. Let me know if you see any BUB illegalities. (To date the bike has been Special Construction legal for a couple of meets)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on November 01, 2013, 01:37:33 PM
Remember.........rule 10.D (part of the rule) The rider and passenger shall be able to exit motorcycle and sidecar without restrictions or assistance.......................................

So make certain your legs are not locked within the fairing..............................................


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 01, 2013, 04:04:39 PM
I always liked Tom Evans' definition of "unrestricted exit".  "If I turn your sidecar upside down and shake it you better fall out."


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 01, 2013, 09:43:48 PM
It is a good point to build toward a reasonable exit, expecially since I'm older than I was yesterday and have had 3 knee surgeries. Hmmm, if I construct my butt pad out of an airbag unit...


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on November 02, 2013, 12:03:53 AM
Bruin, I see you have a 3M decal on your front fender. Is 3M a sponsor?.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 02, 2013, 01:02:51 AM
Yes, a teammate got 3M to help with some adhesives in the build of the dustbin fairing. But it was a local, one time shot.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on November 02, 2013, 04:17:52 AM
I got a very good sponsorship from them on adhesives as well. Tapes, Spray adhesives and aerospace Epoxy products.  I also got an aerosol degreaser that removes masking tape like a charm and smells like an Orange grove, not an Orange. The workshop smells really nice for hours. The can says not for retail sale so I'm not sure if it's a test product but it works really well. Their duct tape is still the best one ever. I'm happy to have 3M on board. :wink:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on November 02, 2013, 10:05:07 AM
Hey, remember you noted having to move your fuel tank......there is always room for the tank in the sidecar so it will give you more room on the bike....just a thought...................


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 02, 2013, 11:47:03 AM
Tank on the sidecar is a good tip to keep in mind. I do have a pretty nice hollow between the upper and lower rails of the bike and can get a little 1 1/2 gal tank right next to the center of gravity. This picture mock-up is probably the most realistic for form and function (Within budget and capabilities). With my bad knee exiting a cookie cut out is safer than trying to wiggle out of a wrap around. The yellow sidecar is just representational at this time and not the final design. My understanding of the SC rules is that I can wrap the rear tire with the fairing.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 04, 2013, 07:13:18 PM
Managed to relocate the gas tank from behind my butt to under my gut. Did it with brackets out of the scrap bin. Cost, zippo. It should move the center of gravity lower and toward the middle of the wheel base. And might make it easier to cover the tail with a fairing.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 06, 2013, 11:02:36 AM
37 degrees. So I'm killing time while a fat man does jumping jacks in the garage to warm it up. I'm a little gun shy about covering the engine in a fairing. The first year I ran the XR 500 at BUB I had wrapped a wind shield around the front of the engine. It had big screened vents to cool the head. Then the last day, the last run, at the best speed, the engine seized in the middle of the timed mile. It broke the rod, broke the cylinder sleeve, and pounded the piston into an unrecognizable mass. The head was useless. With a sidecar the engine will be working harder than ever. Soooo, I'm thinking I might leave the top end in the wind. Decisions, decisions.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on November 06, 2013, 11:36:19 AM
I see lots of different things on the forum but one never wants to offer advice in fear of something going wrong and then getting blamed for interfering.


Would a fairing mod with an inlet designed to channel air to the motor help?. Current water cooled bikes have their radiators in that space so there must be a way to get some good air to the barrel and head.  If you covered the motor with a windshield without a way of getting cool air in, well you saw the result.

I figure you need to test and test. :cheers:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 06, 2013, 12:14:28 PM
My Weslake has about as many fins as a goldfish.  It was designed to run on methanol and I run it on gas.  Cooling has always bee to the forefront.  I have two big air scoop on each side of the body.   To hell with drag in this case.  No records when you're sitting on the salt with a seized engine.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 06, 2013, 04:28:02 PM
The first picture is the classic size and shape opening for an air cooled engine.  This Suzuki was clocked at 167 mph on the Sulby Straight in the Isle of Man a few months ago.  Horsepower is in the low 100's so the bike has good aero.

The second picture is my fairing.  The tapered sides on the top quarter of the opening are intended to funnel air to the engine.  It works.  No indications of overheating were seen during this fall's tear down.  It is possible to get the good aero from a full fairing and decent cooling.

On another note, a lot of air cooled Hondas tend to run hot by design, in comparison to other brands.  We were aware of this years ago and used the best synthetic oils we could find, tried to route the oil to the cylinder heads through an external line rather than up a passage within the cylinder and alongside the barrel, and were careful to set the mixture a tad on the rich side of stoicho.  Also, those little rubber noise suppression things between the fins were pulled out and tossed.  "We" in this case were mechanics in the Honda shop I worked for.  My bike choice at the time was BSA.  I just watched all of this.   


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 06, 2013, 07:49:39 PM
Guys, thanks for posting your comments about air cooled engines and fairings. I think what contributed to my engine failure is that I screened the intake holes. The holes were plenty big, but I suspect the heavy screen blocked a measurable amount of air. I was wondering, if you made the blow hole big enough to be useful, would it negate the advantage of putting a fairing around the engine. But the examples shown give me an idea of how to do it and that even a holed fairing is still helpful. I will revisit covering the engine with a fairing idea.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 06, 2013, 11:51:42 PM
Bruin,  I'm no expert.  All I know is air has to flow across the engine in order to remove heat.  And that's it.  Many years ago in the 80s I built a kart with a Yamaha XS650 engine in it.  Put it right behind the seat.  Took it to El Mirage and after about 10 minutes of running it was almost red hot.  I built a shroud over the engine and a couple of scoops to direct the air through the shroud.  I could go to El Mirage and run all day without overheating.  That was when I learned the importance of air flow. 

If you fair the engine and a hole to let air in and some way to guide it across the engine and a way to let it exit then I think a fairing would help.  If you think back to the 70s Suzuki came out with what they called their "Ram Air System".  It was basically a shroud over the cylinder head fins to guide the air through the head fins.  Something to think about.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img392/9489/img225ap1.jpg)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on November 07, 2013, 12:19:39 AM
And that, the least aerodynamic of all four wheeled cars. :-D You must have had fun with it though.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 07, 2013, 12:39:49 AM
with a 19t on the trans and a 20t. on the axle you bet it was fun!!


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on November 07, 2013, 01:13:27 AM
Bruin, no jack intended. Karts are the most fun ever and I've driven them all. 250cc shifter or "Superkarts" included.

I keep my reflexes sharp every now and then. People think I'm some 16 year old hot shoe until the helmet comes off. :-D


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 07, 2013, 02:57:56 AM
Sorry Bruin.  Didn't mean to hijack.  It was kinda about airflow. : - )


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 07, 2013, 03:13:56 AM
A retired Kart jockey, Dennis, recently became an STD sponsor/consultant. He will love the kart talk. They look like a hoot to me. One team member, Ed Bennett, built the flying credenza with the engine behind him in a plywood housing. For flow he rigged a big Acura fan powered by a marine battery. It was a cool recumbent machine.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: RidgeRunner on November 07, 2013, 09:18:42 AM
Bruin

    If you haven't found it already there is some info starting here that might be of interest to you:  http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,9341.255.html

      Ed


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: fredvance on November 07, 2013, 10:26:28 AM
Screens over any air intake, cooling ducts or velocity stacks, totally disrupt the air flow.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 07, 2013, 11:46:45 AM
Ridgerunner, thanks for the link to Koncretekid's air shroud discussion. (I'm a B-50 owner and met him briefly at BUB) The info was very good and mentioned a couple of things I have been ruminating over.  I like the idea of directing the cylinder heated air away from the carb.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 07, 2013, 12:37:52 PM
A kart held the lap record at the Sears Point road race track in the early 1070's.

Testing was done on several screens of different mesh using my daughter's hair blow drier and a hanging ribbon.  We did testing with clean screens and then hair spray was sprayed on them to resemble salt buildup.  They were tested again.  The chicken wire screens gave acceptable flow under both clean and dirty conditions.  The wire on these screens is fine gauge and the mesh is about 1" and hexagonal shape.  A mouse can crawl through but not a chicken.

It was desired to screen the opening to keep salt from caking on the front of the motor and causing major cooling problems.  This did not appear to be feasible using chicken wire.  The holes are too big.  The half moon fender I use now was developed to keep salt off of the engine.  The funny looking bottom of the fairing opening, with that rounded shape and little dam, is also made to block salt spray.  As a last measure, a little duck tape flap about an inch and a half tall and three inches wide is taped on the back end of the fender.  The engine is pretty clean from salt spray after all of this is done. 


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on November 07, 2013, 01:13:55 PM
Bruin,
The building of my shroud starts on about reply #271 on http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,9341.270.html
It has worked very well and I have never seen the temperature gauge exceed 350*F.
Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 07, 2013, 01:26:02 PM
My original screen could easily hold salt, it was probably 50-50 pinholes and mass. A cockroach could not get by it.

 I run a little mud flap off the back of the front fender, between it and a center down tube, the cooling fins don't catch a lot of salt. I'm thinking that with the advanced position of the fairing and intake,(maybe 6" in front of the cylinder) it will miss most of the spray arc. Raising the intake and or splitting it to the sides would help it miss the spray as well. Thanks for bringing up the salt spray issue, I wasn't thinking about it till now.

Tom, thanks for the link to the shroud discussion.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on November 07, 2013, 02:35:42 PM
I'm thinking that if you're deflecting the salt away from the cylinders the air carrying the salt is probably going around the cylinders too unless you're using something to separate the salt from the air.

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 07, 2013, 06:32:27 PM
Pete, I'm not so concerned about salt vapor or dust at Bonneville. But keeping the large wet clods thrown up by the front tire out of the cooling fins and hardening to concrete certainly helps cooling.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 07, 2013, 08:53:11 PM
Looking at the photo on the other page I was thinking if you could shield the engine and run a couple of small scoops above the shield to duct air to the engine?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 08, 2013, 10:48:50 AM
I think I'll end up fairing the engine, then eyeball it to determine where the inlet might catch the best flow. Right now I'm thinking of aligning it with the "passage" between the fork tubes. Maybe even extend it like a short snorkel/scoop towards that passage to catch the least disturbed air, and avoid salt spittle from the front tire. I also like the idea of providing an exit for the engine heated air before it reaches the carb. I'm sure these ideas will evolve as they are implemented.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on November 08, 2013, 11:57:06 AM
Do we have to call you Bruin?. No disrespect.
 It's evolving even though it's a sketch. Something like that will work. It even looks good. Way to go!. :cheers:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 10, 2013, 07:23:18 PM
Since I moved the gas tank to the bottom rail in needs a fuel pump. Common sense and BUB rules call for a shut-off on the handlebars. The kill switch is the traditional red switch and the Lo-Hi beam controls the pump. I color coded 'em for simplicity.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 14, 2013, 05:51:07 PM
Since moving the tank onto the bottom rail I needed a fuel pump and that requires a return line. It's close to the cap so I could reach in and get a nut behind it. Snugged it in place with some JB weld for sealer. Next, run the hoses and fire-sleeve 'em.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 14, 2013, 06:09:55 PM
Check the BUB rules.  I don't know them but the SCTA rules only require the "unvalved portions" of fuel line to be fire sleeved.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on November 14, 2013, 09:43:12 PM
Since moving the tank onto the bottom rail I needed a fuel pump and that requires a return line. It's close to the cap so I could reach in and get a nut behind it. Snugged it in place with some JB weld for sealer. Next, run the hoses and fire-sleeve 'em.

You lucky man. I used to build my carbon gas tanks and work through the filler to join the halves and that was when the larger aircraft type caps were popular. 8-)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 14, 2013, 10:30:50 PM
BUB rules say... "fire sleeves shall cover all fuel lines and connectors." I'm guessing that means to the carb and back. Makes sense.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 14, 2013, 10:45:15 PM
Didn't know that.  I hope the SCTA don't see that or its another expense I don't need.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 15, 2013, 11:06:59 AM
Norton, that SCTA isn't all-fire-wrap-all-the-time surprises me. They strike me as pretty conservative in the rules dept. I've been burned (non-cycle incident) so I'm an easy sell on this particular rule. Though I think it would be an interesting debate over how effective the fire sleeves are. I'm thinking about using some copper tubing in certain sections of the fuel line.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Glen on November 15, 2013, 11:35:12 AM
Copper lines are prone to cracking.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 15, 2013, 12:37:58 PM
Once the fuel pump is shut off (if there is a fire) fuel can't flow so there really is no need to firesleeve the line between the pump and the carb.  I approx. 6" of unvalved fuelline between the tank and the pump.  Its firesleeved but not the rest to the carb and the return line.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 15, 2013, 01:16:37 PM
What do cars use for metal lines, aluminum?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 15, 2013, 05:37:48 PM
Static fuel pump beta test done. Cobbled together enough hose to complete the fuel line circuit. Triggered the Hi Beam switch and gas flowed like second hand beer.  :cheers: Best of all, the carb needle valve was not over powered... so no overflow. Doing the happy dance.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on November 16, 2013, 06:25:22 AM
Bruin,
What kind of a fuel pump are you using?
Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 17, 2013, 07:13:52 PM
I mounted a "ACD 6v electric fuel pump" from Jacksons Old Time Parts. It is 10 amp 5-8 psi.

I do have a second choice, a "Mr Gasket Micro pump" 12v from O'Rileys.

Whatever unit I use will have to run off its own battery as I want to save all the generated juice for the CDI ignition. That may be false logic but it makes sense to my uninformed noggin.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 17, 2013, 08:00:24 PM
Whatever unit I use will have to run off its own battery as I want to save all the generated juice for the CDI ignition. That may be false logic but it makes sense to my uninformed noggin.

Definitely not false logic Bruin.  Up to this year I ran a big car battery in the sidecar.  It powered the ignition and fuel pump.  Never had to give it a thought.  This year I changed the sidecar to an alloy wheel and different platform (another story).  The change meant I had to move the battery and fuel tank inside the frame.  Smaller tank and battery.  Running on a 121 record the first run was 125 for the mile 129 at the quarter.   Off to impound.  Do the usual checks.  Come back in the morning.  Return run, 115 for the mile.  Miss the record by less than 1 mph. 

Spent the week chasing our tails.  Eventually we upped the record by 1/2 mph.  But I slowly chased the cause of our slowness down to the battery and a voltage drop that restricted the rpm.  This year I'm going back to a big car battery to get rid of that problem.  If you are going to run small(ish) batteries definitely run two.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 18, 2013, 01:30:00 AM
Since I already have one on hand, I'm thinking about swapping the 6v for the 12v. The 12v produces lower psi of 4-7 but plenty of flow at 35 g/hr. But mostly, at 12 v, there is a great supply/choice of batteries at hand and they can be charged off the car if needed.

(I'm assuming the 6v and 12v won't have a measurable difference in battery/life, that will be more dependent on the batteries themselves?)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 21, 2013, 12:17:14 PM
Here is the pump fuel line diagram with a pressure reducer and the 12 v pump instead of the 6 v. The net said it only pulls one amp. Does anyone know how low a battery can drop in volts and still power such a pump?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on November 21, 2013, 03:06:20 PM
Brian...........I used a 1.5-amp charger in the hotel-room to keep my batteries charged. Remember to plumb the On-OFF for the pump through the safety-switch tied to your wrist.  Nice work. Good idea on the separate battery.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on November 21, 2013, 05:13:50 PM
I'm not an expert on batteries, but if you have a 6 amp hour battery, it should last about 6 hours producing 1 amp, but will it still have 12 volts?  One sure way to tell, hook it up and let it run for an hour, or even just 15 minutes (more time than you'll need for a couple of runs).  Check your voltage while it is running to confirm your suspicions.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 21, 2013, 06:04:59 PM
I've got a trickle charger so I can top off the battery overnight. Is wiring the pump through the kill-disconnect switch just a good idea or a rule? The way I thought the BUB rules read was that the fuel (pump) had to have a cut-off switch on the handlebar. That I do have. Right now the disconnect kills the ignition by grounding it out. I'm not sure how I would piggyback a completely separate electrical system onto it.

I will do a timed pump run to test the amp usage next time I can stand the temp in the garage. An artic front just arrived, it is 34 degrees and dropping like a stone right now.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 21, 2013, 06:31:15 PM
Looking at the SCTA rule book, rule 7.B.2.3 says "If the ignition kill lanyard does not shut off the fuel pump, the motorcycle shall be equipped with a tether type shut-off device attached to the vehicle and the rider so the fuel pump is shut off if the rider becomes separated from the motorcycle".   Reading that it would seem, for the SCTA at least, you would need to wire the fuel pump into the kill switch.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 21, 2013, 10:43:44 PM
"BUB 2.E. Gasoline class motorcycles shall have a fuel shut-off located within easy reach of the rider. Fuel class motorcycles shall have a positive fuel shut-off activated without the riders hand leaving the handlebars. In gas and fuel classes a lanyard must connect the ignition shut-off switch to the rider."

So I'm thinking my pump on-off switch on the handlebars will meet the BUB requirements.  (And simplify the wiring in a self contained pump system.)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 21, 2013, 11:33:30 PM
Yup.  Looks like you are dead legal for BUB.  I'd still prefer the fuel pump shut off to be tied to the deadman.  But its your machine and I'm in the grandstand eagerly waiting to see the final outcome.   


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 22, 2013, 03:27:03 PM
With the ignition and pump on two different systems, and not sharing a common ground or power, it would take two disconnect switches.

The previous pump test was on the 6 v. When I tried the 12 v pump nothing happened. The replacement battery tested only 10 v so I charged it over night and today the pump purred with a full 12 v charge. All that is left to complete the tank relocation and pump instillation is the trim the wires and hose to size, and fire sleeve 'em.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 22, 2013, 04:09:44 PM
I brought the power from the battery to the deadman and then split it to the ignition and fuel pump switches.  Two switches, one kill switch.   Voltage drop was my Warterloo this year.  Next year I'm going back to a BIG battery with some oomph to it.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on November 22, 2013, 09:12:39 PM
If you want the lanyard to shut off both the ignition and the fuel pump, even if the fuel pump uses a separate battery, you can use a simple relay (horn relay should work).  The relay would be disconnected by the lanyard and the connection would drop out (assuming you have a normally closed lanyard switch), but the relay circuit would be hooked up to the 2nd battery.  If you use a normally open lanyard switch, then you'll need a normally closed relay (power to open the circuit).
Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 23, 2013, 12:59:17 AM
My kill switch is open, when the contacts close it grounds out the coil. The XR 500 is powered by a cdi unit so no battery.

What I know of relay switches I learned from my shovelhead.
1. They fail.
2. They can be bypassed touching a points spring across the solenoid.
3. Save $15  :-D



Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on November 24, 2013, 06:32:43 AM
My kill switch is open, when the contacts close it grounds out the coil. The XR 500 is powered by a cdi unit so no battery.

What I know of relay switches I learned from my shovelhead.
1. They fail.
2. They can be bypassed touching a points spring across the solenoid.
3. Save $15  :-D


1.) Save $15
2.) Fall off (it happens)
3.) Watch ensuing inferno as fuel pump keeps pumping
4.) Bruin wishes he'd spend that $15

Just a thought.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on November 24, 2013, 06:34:37 AM
 :-D :-D :-D


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 24, 2013, 10:58:22 AM
Reminder to self: Bring marshmallows.
 
Or... it just struck me, I could leash my passenger to the fuel pump fuse, if he gets tossed, or decides to pull it, the pump stops.
1. Failsafe
2. Simple
3. Free-ish
On the other hand, toasted marshmallows are yummy.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 29, 2013, 05:30:38 PM
Dennis was kind enough to donate a muffler to my "hand tune exhaust" project. The size and mass of the stock can is best described as "substantial." Today I hacked 8 inches off the rear of the can and discovered more baffle-guts than I thought necessary. Chiseled them out and now the remainder only has a shower drain baffle between the megaphone taper and the cylinder. On good advice I'm toying with the idea of fashioning a bit of reverse taper in the end.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 29, 2013, 11:19:53 PM
A wave traveling out an open pipe end reflects a returning wave with opposite polarity.  A wave hitting a flat pipe end returns a wave with the same polarity.  That might be a good design and intentionally done that way.  The best way to do those muffler mods is to put the standard system back on and make a dyno run or two.  Then, one by one, make the changes and watch the torque and power curves.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 30, 2013, 11:48:49 AM
Bo, you're 100% right about tuning the exhaust on a dyno. As a writer I'd have to sell 43 paperbacks or 87 ebooks for a single dyno visit. So until Oprah's book club discovers me, I'm on a "wild-a** guess-n-salt-test" budget. (People with real jobs should do as Bo suggests.)

I will leave the shower drain baffle in place. As the Beach Boys sang, "Catch a wave and you're sittin' on top o' the world."

Hmmm, maybe I can make the reverse mega cone end removable so I can try with and without at Bonneville.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: salt27 on November 30, 2013, 12:13:57 PM
As a writer I'd have to sell 43 paperbacks or 87 ebooks for a single dyno visit. So until Oprah's book club discovers me, I'm on a "wild-a** guess-n-salt-test" budget. (People with real jobs should do as Bo suggests.)


Bruin, would you mind telling us about your books?

If the words aren't too big I will read a book now and then.   :-D

  Don


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 30, 2013, 01:39:04 PM
Thanks for asking. I have a couple short story collections and a paperback on Amazon under "Brian W Allen." The book, "My Paradise Lost- Misadventures to manhood in the Panama Canal Zone" is a coming of age story about life along the Panama Canal during the turbulent years before the US turned it over to Panama. It has been described as "Huck Finn grows up on the banks of the Canal." Reviews credit it as being funny and poignant. It is a warts and all adult read. Check it out on Amazon, kindle versions are available.

(Though it is about life and trouble in paradise, I do mention my first motorcycle misadventures.)

http://www.amazon.com/My-Paradise-Lost-Misadventures-manhood/dp/1481954237/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1385836573&sr=1-1&keywords=my+paradise+lost


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on November 30, 2013, 01:50:07 PM
Sorry that I'm so cheap.   :|  The reviews look good.  Bought the Kindle version.

Mike


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 30, 2013, 03:08:35 PM
Mike, I'm happy to have the business of Kindle readers. My experience has been that the ratio of paperbacks to e-books sold is almost 1:1 on Amazon. The times they are a-changing. Hope you like it.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 01, 2013, 11:58:13 AM
Bruin, the simple header into megga cone with a little reverse cone on the end can be designed close enough without dyno work.  Pipemax will give you a good idea of the primary header length to the small end of the megga taper.  There are some good formulae for the cone taper on the net so you do not need to do a lot of dyno work.  I will post them when I can find them.  A bike with a four speed tranny that is pulling a load needs a wide power band.  A properly designed megga system can help with that. 


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 01, 2013, 12:50:13 PM
I am a big believer in not reinventing the wheel. If you can turn me on to any exhaust mod plans (Doable by hand tools based on the piece that I already have) I'd appreciate it. This stuff is uncharted waters for me. BTW, my XR500 is a 5 speed. I've got it geared tall enough now that I need all two miles of the mountain 0 course to get to 6,400 rpm in 5th. (106 mph)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on December 01, 2013, 09:28:45 PM
Brian is very used to unchartered waters..........I'm reading his book...........just finished the chapter about the 'strip'-club and his older brother returning from 'Nam'. Its a good read about real life.........I recommend it :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) Pass the word and help Brian go faster 8-) 8-)


Title: Re:
Post by: Hellcat Customs on December 02, 2013, 12:34:35 AM
Sounds silly, and I'm way late with this post... But.... We are moving both our Fuel tanks to the sidecars behind the wheel and the pumps are inside the tanks so we don't have to mess about with valves or fire sleeve... Just a thought

I'd start a build thread myself but Turbo Harley sidecars don't gather much Intrest.... We sound start a central sidecar thread for the few of us who really love them... Or maybe a sidecar builders communication network or club so we can all learn from one another


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on December 02, 2013, 12:51:28 AM
The above sounds like a great idea.  We do need a "Sidecar Central" of some sorts.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on December 02, 2013, 07:04:31 AM
I am a big believer in not reinventing the wheel. If you can turn me on to any exhaust mod plans (Doable by hand tools based on the piece that I already have) I'd appreciate it. This stuff is uncharted waters for me. BTW, my XR500 is a 5 speed. I've got it geared tall enough now that I need all two miles of the mountain 0 course to get to 6,400 rpm in 5th. (106 mph)
Brian,
My guess is that you are geared too high.  That Honda should easily spin 8,000 rpm, and probably doesn't make max hp until you get close to that (I roadraced against one, and I couldn't get close to him on the B50)
A bike with a four speed tranny that is pulling a load needs a wide power band.  
In my opinion, you don't need a wide power band at Bonneville.  Horsepower requirements increase at the cube of the speed increase.  Even a bike with a very steep power curve will generally increase horsepower in a linear fashion.  Your maximum speed will be largely determined by matching your max horsepower to your maximum speed at your given drag. Experiment with different length straight pipes (very easy to do).  Panic's Victory Library has good info originally derived (I think) from pushrod British bikes, so I don't know if it applies to that overhead cam 4 valve "modern" Honda , :-D, but it seemed to work for me.  I have attached a PDF which shows horsepower to speed requirements for my bike.  Look at the graph.  Unless your horsepower curve is steeper than this, you just need to read down your desired speed to see the horsepower requirement (for my CdA).  Match your gearing to your max horsepower RPM and give it a try.


I'd start a build thread myself but Turbo Harley sidecars don't gather much Intrest....

I think you'd be surprised at how much interest your build thread would gather!

Tom




Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on December 02, 2013, 09:22:36 AM
A "Sidecar Central" ??? Would that also include "Wheel on a Stick" racers???


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 02, 2013, 10:05:16 AM
Good information fellas, I'll check it out. Anecdotally, when I did gear down for more top end rpm I lost a few mph. Granted it was not a controlled test. My shift point has been 7,000 on the lower four gears and top rpm varies between 6.4 K with a 6.7 K best. I had planned to gear down for the power needed to haul the extra sidecar weight and what has been discussed underscores the need for doing that in general.

An adjustable straight pipe has been suggested more than once and it is within my skill set. E & V Engineering recommended 30 inches.

Sidecar Central sounds like a good idea and I'm not prejudiced at all.

Thanks for supporting and recommending my book, the proceeds do help me get to Bonneville.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on December 02, 2013, 10:27:46 AM
Brian, all the best for your writing (sales) and on your project.
 :cheers:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on December 02, 2013, 12:24:51 PM
A "Sidecar Central" ??? Would that also include "Wheel on a Stick" racers???

Of course Bob.   There would even be room for a M20 with AA sidecar.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on December 02, 2013, 04:41:58 PM
Just wondering what year your XR500 is?  I see that the '83 & '84 models were 92mm bore by 75mm stroke.  That is exactly what my modified B50 is, and with a Megacycle cam and 12.5:1 JE piston from Ed V., I can turn 8000 rpm all day, and I've seen 9000.  A piston and a cam would probably really turn that motor on.  But I know, you'd have to see a gazillion books to pay for them!  I will be ordering one when I get to Colorado for Christmas, if that will help.
Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 03, 2013, 03:58:17 PM
It's a 1984. I'm sure a piston and hot cam would give it some Umph. Nothing is more true than the old saw, "Speed costs, How fast do you want to go?"  But please continue the suggestions. I like to know what is possible.

Every book helps and so far people seem to like it. Thanks.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: JimL on December 04, 2013, 12:35:17 AM
Speedway sells a plain steel megaphone section.  It starts at 1 5/8" and goes to 3" over a length of 30".  I use the section from 2" out to 2 1/2" for my megs, with a slash of 2 1/2" exhaust elbow to do the job of a reverse cone.

Meg part number is 91013372 for $35.  They sell lots of mandrel bent pipe to fab up your headers.  Ordered your book off Amazon..looking forward to it.  I wrote a book once...went nowhere because nobody was very interested in how to build a streetrod with a Toyota engine. :-P....still have a box of them in the attic...probably helps insulate.

C'est la vie  :|


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 04, 2013, 01:55:30 AM
Jim, I read and enjoyed your book.

Bruin, the rpm range you need power for includes the drop in rpm for the shift lag from 4th to 5th as well as the rpm range you plan to run through in fifth.  You also need to include some extra power band width to reflect the sophistication and accuracy of your tune.  Add all of this up and it can be 3,000 or 4,000 rpm, even on a five speed bike.

Open ended straight pipes produce the biggest power spike but it is over a narrow band with pronounced lack of horses on each side.  They work OK but a person really needs to have a dyno run to know the power curve shape, good info on gearing, the ability to match everything together, and lotsa sprockets.  It is much more difficult to make work than it seems.

As mentioned previously, Panic's Victory Papers have some good info.  That is what I have lost and cannot find anywhere.  He is a forum member.  You can make a pipe to his formulae and be close enough.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on December 04, 2013, 02:25:41 AM
Google Victory Tech Papers and you may find what you're looking for. ------------- No guarantees!!!  :-D :-D :-D

I just did it and there's a bunch of stuff there.

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 04, 2013, 01:10:04 PM
I didn't find specific exhaust pipe length info on Panic's Victory site but there is a lot to wade through. There is megaphone design info but it is a lot to digest for me. I need to study it more. I did goggle up a exhaust length calculator, I used stock figures that I searched up...BBDC-45, ATDC-5, rpm-6,500 and 500cc. It told me to use a 26" tuned length from valve head. But it also mentioned a 24.9" tailpipe length. I'm not sure what length they want you to use. It did specify a primary inside diameter of 1.74" but I can't play with that, I'm locked into what the stock pipe diameter is.

Apparently stock xr-500 hp is 32 @6,500


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 05, 2013, 01:01:42 AM
Is your 500 the one with a header pipe for each of the two exhaust valves?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 05, 2013, 12:50:16 PM
It is a single cylinder/twin exhaust engine. The 2 head pipes are 1" ID, the left is 18 3/4" long, the right is 13" long, then they join into a 1 9/16" ID single exhaust pipe.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: coloradojay on December 05, 2013, 07:12:18 PM
The XR 500 engine seems to be fairly popular with some flat track/ speedway racers. Maybe you can get some low buck exhaust info from them.

I'm loving the build so far. I initially started watching because I was planning on running a side car next year, but decided on building a new motor and getting the current set up dialed.

I teach high school English, so I know what working with a tight budget is like! I also ordered a copy of the book, and can't wait to start reading.

See you on the salt!


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 06, 2013, 12:31:11 PM
Thanks coloradojay. Getting your main frame bike running up to snuff is a good thing to do before getting jiggy with it. Don't grade my book on anything but the story telling, I was a lackadaisical English student. Please do say Hi on the salt. It is 16 degrees in Topeka right now. No garage time for this gnome.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on December 06, 2013, 02:33:34 PM
Brian, I think Math is more important for this exercise. :-D :cheers:

I think you'll get more pleasure out of your sidecar on a limited budget than if you commisioned 5 guys to build you a $100,000 ride.

That's the spirit I believe. This game keeps you sharp 24/7 and you will squeeze every drop out of the project.

I'm subscribed. :cheers:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 06, 2013, 02:55:27 PM
Tauruck, You get it. Our little team takes pride and satisfaction in doing what we can with what we have, can cobble together, or scrounge. We've been "making do" at Bonnie for six years now and few have more fun per dollar than we do. Our home designed and hand built sidecar will be a hoot at any speed.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Hellcat Customs on December 06, 2013, 10:26:33 PM
A "Sidecar Central" ??? Would that also include "Wheel on a Stick" racers???

Bak, would you do the honor and be the first to start the sidecar coalition thread then?... Fir all us sidecar loonies?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 07, 2013, 12:13:59 AM
The "tuned length" of the system you have are the distances between the exhaust valve faces and the expansion point where the two headers meet.  That length will be the primary influence on exhaust system harmonics.  The total length is the secondary length.  It affects system performance, too, but to a lesser degree.

The critical factor that has to be right for everything to work is that primary length.  Various formulae and Pipemax can give you that length.   


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 07, 2013, 11:17:00 AM
Bo, so as I am understanding it, the twin head pipes, now stock at 18 3/4" and 13" x 1" ID...Should be 27" each and 1.74" ID? That means that I have no chance of tweaking a stock exhaust into an ideal tuning configuration. Without the means and skill to fabricate/buy one, ideal will just have to remain an idea.

OK, on to plan "B" How to cut a stock pipe so that it has the potential to help a tad at best, and not hurt performance at worst. EV Engineering suggested a 30" pipe. I can easily make an adjustable pipe sleeve to play with the length, and I have an open megaphone made out of a cut down stock muffler (With a single 90 degree shower drain baffle.) that I can play with. These will give me something to do trial and error with on the salt pending further "making do" input.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 08, 2013, 01:35:27 AM
Bruin, today was our monthly Triumph Club breakfast and a fellow there used to build and race those Hondas.  He gave me these contacts www.billspipes.com (http://www.billspipes.com) and www.jemcoexhaust.com (http://www.jemcoexhaust.com)

What I would do is give a good pipe designer my engine and use info and have the pipe made.  The double exhaust ports complicate matters and make it hard for a home builder to get it right.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on December 08, 2013, 08:20:23 AM
You could just cut the head pipes off just before they join and extend each of them to the same length.  1" thin wall tubing is easy enough to find, but you have to use a mandrel bender to keep from crushing it.  I have a home made tube bender, but had to buy the dies.

BTW your camshaft is designed for mud riding or trials.  Take a look at Megacycle's catalogue someday to see their racing profiles.

Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 08, 2013, 11:22:12 AM
Thanks guys, I do like knowing the high end options, you never know when Santa might change his mind about me. I'm sure a race cam would help a lot. Worth pricing anyway. Pipe inserts to lengthen the 1" headers is a good idea. Depending on clearance they might not have to be bent. Question 1: The pipe formula suggests length AND diameter. If you only adjust length, will the unchanged diameter invalidate your efforts?
Question 2: I blew the original engine up and replaced it with an ebay special. I know better than to assume it is the same engine the seller claims. (without papers) Is there a master list I can compare the engine # to for the year and model? I'm suspicious because I found out that the replacement does not have the duckbill reed intake the original one did. It has a nice smooth open intake. Could I have stumbled across the street version? (XL?)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Queeziryder on December 08, 2013, 01:05:40 PM
Hi Bruin,
just to stir the pot a bit more, don't forget the Honda XBR500, which was a cafe racer stlyed road bike with wire wheels.
This had a hotter cam and a bigger carb setup from the factory.

All motors were based on the same RVFC 500 motor.

HTH
Neil


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on December 08, 2013, 09:16:36 PM
Bruin............take a look on ebay for a set of street-pipes from the FT500 Ascot model. Its two into one but the TWO are about the optimum length. That would change your exhaust to a low-pipe but may help the MONKEY riding position.  I agree on the cam.............and while your inside........don't forget to skim a few thou from the head and think about a thinner headgasket from copper.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 09, 2013, 12:51:29 AM
The pipe tuning depends on the cam timing among other things, so it is best to figure out what cams to use before tuning the exhaust.  Hotter cams with more overlap and duration are going to be more sensitive to exhaust and intake harmonics.  The best source of info on what pipe to use is the person who developed the cams.   


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 09, 2013, 08:32:40 PM
Here is what I would do.  This took some digging around.

First, extend or shorten the headers to get the correct length for the desired rpm.  Pipemax seems to give the best lengths based on my experience.  Do not worry about header diameter.  The headers will be next to each other and parallel to themselves with different end points.

Second, build a can around the header ends.  The headers can project into the can different distances.  A 3,000 cc can volume should be OK.  Use the shape on the attached.

Third, use any end that is not restrictive.  It does not need to be a fishtail although one would look spiffy.

It was a good point that was brought up previously.  Mild cams do not benefit a whole lot by sophisticated meggas, etc.  Dumping the headers into a can will work just great.

     


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 09, 2013, 08:36:32 PM
Credit goes to "Speed and How to Obtain It"  The book cost 2/6 in 1936.  The author is not mentioned by name. 


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on December 10, 2013, 01:58:32 AM
If I could find my copy (under my desk and I'm lazy right now) I could tell you.  But I believe the author is Phillip Irving.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Tofu on December 10, 2013, 07:07:54 AM
Speed and How To Obtain first published 1925 by the staff of Motor Cycle. The Phil Irving book was was Tuning Foe Speed and first published in 1948, a much more modern tome.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on December 10, 2013, 12:21:57 PM
Thanks Tofu. 


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 10, 2013, 05:15:28 PM
A lot of interesting information in those pages, I need some time to try and digest them. I did do some homework on the engine number and discovered my ebay replacement engine is actually a 1982 XL 500 (NOT an XR). But Thumpertalk tells me the XR and XL used the same cam so my earlier pipe calculations should be the same.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 10, 2013, 10:13:39 PM
The slanted parallelogram Brooklands shape was explained to me once.  It is shaped that way so the pressure waves in the can get scrambled and they do not affect the header harmonics.  Also, the mixed up waves require less secondary baffling to reduce noise.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 14, 2013, 12:43:12 PM
Thanks Bo, that info is good stuff. I wrote a long letter to Santa and lied through my teeth about how good I was, helping old ladies across the track and giving used oil to the poor. It worked because I am getting an FT Ascot exhaust pipe in my stocking. From what I have read it offers a better tune than the XR high pipes. But since it does run under the engine I will need to revisit some design choices like ground clearance and sidecar mounts. At least I now have options.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 18, 2013, 09:40:38 PM
Pulled the current XR 500 pipe off and put it in the line-up for comparison with the contenders. As usual nothing is simple. The XR 600 pipe inlets are located too wide and exiting Rt, it runs into the lowered gas tank. The FT 500 inlets are too large in diameter to fit the head ports. Sooo, the closest thing I might get to the prescribed primary pipe length for tuning is to find a talented welder who can put the XR 600 inlets on the FT 500 pipes.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 18, 2013, 10:15:00 PM
Can you use an Ascot head?  That might give you better breathing and help as much as the pipes.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on December 18, 2013, 10:53:21 PM
On the Sportsters I build the pipe steps up to a larger OD about 2" from the flange.

Doing the same on the Honda might work?.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on December 18, 2013, 10:57:43 PM
Bo, An Ascot head would solve the exhaust issue and might breath better, but I have no clue how it would fit on a XL jug and if incidentals like timing chain and cam et all would match up. What do you think?

Tauruck, I can't visualize what you are describing. Details?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on December 18, 2013, 11:17:13 PM
I found the only photo where the step up is clear enough.

Not one of mine but I think you'll get the idea.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on January 08, 2014, 10:20:50 AM
Brian,
I received and read your book "My Paradise Lost" over the holidays and thoroughly enjoyed it.  It brought back many memories of my own youth, growing up in a small eastern college town.  While you were getting chased by the "zonie" police, we were getting chased by the campus cops (they couldn't catch us) or the town police (they could!), and then there were the mini-bikes and go-carts racing around the back field as well as the endless exploration of the creeks and ponds I grew up around.  Then the trials and tribulations of high school and college days.  I admire your talent for writing.  Thanks for the memories.
Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 09, 2014, 09:07:23 AM
Brian, I'm enjoying the book (Nancy bought it for one of my Christmas presents), and it's fun to see your photos - growing up.  So far I'm up to the footpeg into the calf part of the story.  I read only a few pages/day -- trying to prolong the fun.  Thanks.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on January 09, 2014, 11:23:35 AM
Thanks guys, It means a lot to me to hear from readers. What I am finding out is that no matter how removed and exotic one's upbringing might be, there is something universal about life's journey. I had an 80 yo widow tell me she could relate to the awkward teen romance chapter.

The artic vortex has pushed me out of the garage so there is not much build news to post. Tucker's Triumph is in the final stages of race assembly. My co-pilot is working on the sidecar design but we won't see real progress until he retires in February.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on January 13, 2014, 02:21:35 PM
Finally warmed up enough for me to sneak into the garage. I put a closer eyeball to the muffler I cut to salvage the megaphone section of it. At first I thought it only had a shower drain baffle in that section. But a closer look and flashlight revealed it was stuffed with an inner pipe and sleeve baffle. So there was no way the flow was going to benefit from the cone shape. I ripped the guts out so now its a hollow megaphone. Next I hope to fashion a reverse cone on the end.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on January 13, 2014, 08:58:19 PM
DROP BY SOME TIME

KANSAS BAD MA


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on January 23, 2014, 09:40:23 AM
Arrrgh, it's 3 degrees in the garage this morning and I'm itching to mutilate some metal. I guess I can put the time to good use by doing some writing. I'm working on my second book, a novel about a mechanic scrounging to survive in a post apocalyptic world. Think rediscovery of the old west with modern knowledge but only the remnants of technology. Early feedback from my writers group is very positive. Some forum members have mentioned they liked my 1st book, "My Paradise Lost, misadventures to manhood in the Panama Canal Zone" so I'm going to put purchase info in the Landracing For Sale by Private Individual page. Stay warm out there.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on January 23, 2014, 08:21:54 PM
Its below zero in my garage and -17 is predicted ................So I am writing a feasibility analysis for a potential hotel development. To bad I can't write fiction :lol: :lol:

Another book from Brian may be a good thing.............Your first effort was easy reading and a good story about real life. It has a direct meaning for all of us.................except the part about ending up in Kansas :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on January 24, 2014, 05:12:29 PM
Dennis, In 2007-8 I wrote a year long series about preparing the 250 Triumph to run Bonneville for THE HORSE BACKSTREET CHOPPERs magazine. Unfortunately they don't post their articles on-line. I'm currently writing a post apocalyptic novel about a motorcycle mechanic who scavenges machinery to rebuild, and he rides a BSA... and a camel for long distances. It sounds odd but it works. When it is available I'll send up a flare.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on February 07, 2014, 12:11:35 PM
The new BUB supplemental rules kick my Honda 500 off the 5 mile mountain course. I've run 106 mph and they have set a minimum of 125 for that course. I have geared the bike up and use every inch of the 2 mile approach to reach top speed. The 3 mile course will be a freakn drag race for me. I'm going to have size up the rear and shrink the front sprockets... at a loss of top speed thank you very much.

I do understand and champion the need to keep traffic flowing. But sub 125 mph bikes on the 5 mile course is much less a problem than the large chunks of time when no bikes are on the course.

The line for the 3 mile course is going to be epic.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: JimL on February 07, 2014, 02:31:43 PM
A little late, with this note,  but kudos on your Panama story.  That is an excellent look into a world most Americans never see.  My mother read it cover-to-cover and really enjoyed it (91 years old and reads several books a week).

I wish my boys had experienced a firsthand look at other countries, as so many of our generation did (perhaps without having to become proficient at "nickel and a dime, head space and timing")!

I think that your cone is too steep and short to do you any good.  I have made my own megs, in the past, by gore cutting 2 1/2" exhaust pipe and then slowly bringing it together with a series of hose clamps.  You can tack weld in between the clamps to hold, and then remove the clamps for finish weld.  A "death wheel" or an air hacksaw with broken-off bimetal blades will cut the section out of the pipe.

Calculate the circumference of your small end, mark a centerline, and then mark a cutline on each side of centerline.  Leave the last 1/2" of 2 1/2" tube uncut, so your clamping process starts straight.  Leave enough space between the clamps to work the metal with a rubber mallet.  The clamps will survive mallet contact just fine.

Or...heres how I do it these days for cheap.  Use the 1 5/8" to 3 1/2" and cut off what you need.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/search.html?query=Megaphone

JimL



Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on February 09, 2014, 05:03:40 PM
Thanks Jim and please tell your Mom I tip my hat to her.
Also thanks for the megaphone tip, I'll look into it.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on February 09, 2014, 05:31:41 PM
"about a motorcycle mechanic who scavenges machinery to rebuild, and he rides a BSA... and a camel for long distances"
....I resemble that remark!  Just substitute "Toyota" for "camel."
Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: JimL on February 09, 2014, 05:45:21 PM
I forgot to mention; using a slice out of a 2 1/2" exhaust pipe elbow does exactly the same thing as a reverse cone.  Just cut out a piece of elbow, up to 90 degrees worth (or whatever suits your layout) and weld it to the end of the meg cone.

A certain famous motorcycle company discovered that their flat-tracker pipes worked best with a 45 degree slash cut on the end (before the days of mufflers in AMA).  They won a whole bunch of championships.  That little story was published after the fact, when a good writer got curious during an interview of the head of their racing department.

Slash, curve, or reverse cone....they all spread the wave effectiveness a little bit, is what I was told by the fellow who designed and built my exhaust systems.  11 records later, I have no reason to doubt his work.

Regards, JimL


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on March 01, 2014, 11:42:10 PM
JimL, a 2 1/2 inch elbow welded onto a cone? Wouldn't the cone have to be tapered down to 2 1/2? thus already reversing the cone? I'm not visualizing it, How's about a sketch or a visual of some kind?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on March 30, 2014, 03:51:02 PM
I've got Tucker's bike off the lift. It is about ready to ride. She wanted to show it at the Race Against Breast Cancer booth she worked during the ABATE bike show.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on March 31, 2014, 09:32:23 AM
Nice looking........couple :-) :-) :-)  The white blanket/sheet is great 8-) 8-)  and you look a little under-sized for your leathers :-D :-D


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on March 31, 2014, 04:29:43 PM
Brian and Tucker,
It's great that you have a cause to help support.  I've been trying to figure out a way to do the same, but the idea keeps getting shoved aside.  My living in two places doesn't help, as my racing is in the U.S. but my cause should be Canadian. You keep me reminding me, and I'll think of something.
Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on March 31, 2014, 05:31:36 PM
Nice pic Brian.

Way to go.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on April 02, 2014, 01:38:48 PM
Koncretekid, I'm sure you'll find some group you can help, check your local bike shows, there are always a couple charities struggling to draw people to their booth and a nice bike like yours would be a help. I once loaned out a bike to a wounded veterans group and they used it as a draw at all kinds of outdoor events.

Of course if you paint/decorate your bike to match the organizations theme they love that.

It's garage season!


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on May 23, 2014, 02:20:26 PM
Oddly, the '70 Triumph 250 wouldn't start. And then it would. And then it wouldn't. Turns out that the 3 way Stop-Run-Stop switch was positional. From the upper off to run settings it started fine. But from the lower off to run it wouldn't start. I took the switch apart and found a contact corroded over and a spring the switch floats on frozen by rust. I cleaned everything up but won't be able to test it till I get a new battery on board.

I registered for the Bub/Motorcycle Speedtrials.  Does my sidecar copilot need to do any paperwork or just show up with approved gear?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on May 23, 2014, 09:32:54 PM
Brian............just thinking...........don't actually know...........I would be prepared with all info required for the rider.........especially the health info........and something good for the PA system.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on June 19, 2014, 10:39:36 PM
Tucker's 250 Trump had spark on the lift, I topped off the fluids, took it off the lift... and no spark. Checked out the usual suspects but the elusive blue lightening didn't return until I broke down and reassembled the disconnect kill-lanyard switch. I had to drill the mount screws out but it was actually pretty clean for being a six year salt veteran. Cleaned and lubed it and got the spark back. After sitting 10 months and a valve replacement, the 44 yo gal started on the first kick. Yahoo!

Now I can get my bike on the lift, get it running, and finish converting it to a sidecar rig. There might be some dramatic suspense, the bike and the rig are being built half a nation apart and won't be joined until we meet at Bonneville.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: JimL on June 20, 2014, 01:10:40 AM
You can do it.  In 2011, I hauled out a larger engine for our shaft drive bike from Colorado.  That sounds simple enough, but it was a different engine both in displacement and physical size, and different main engine mount locations.  I brought some "various" steel and my son fabbed up frame brackets, longer engine mounts, etc.  We had to seek out enough generator to run the MIG, but it worked out fine (current MPS-PG-650 record).

There are lots of helpful folks out there, or we wouldnt have got it going.  I'll be watching for your runs on the internet, this year.

Good luck, ride safe.
JimL


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on June 20, 2014, 10:07:02 PM
JimL  To try and get cycle and hack to match, we are building to a template. The theory being, build the hack mounts to a template, and ship the template to me where I'll then mate the mounts to it. With built in adjustable fudge factors.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on June 21, 2014, 02:19:15 PM
Fudge-factors are allowed.................clamps.........not welds...........with turn-buckle adjusters.  Try to minimize the suspension sag on the bike. Your front suspension on the bike must be sturdy.........including the wheel. Any amount of side-flex (frame; fork; wheel; tire) will require toe-in adjustment that may work well at certain speeds.......and not so well at others.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on July 20, 2014, 11:43:38 AM
My copilot Harry sent the mounting blocks for the sidecar. Being half a country apart we got them to fit by... 1. I sent him scale drawings and lots of pictures. 2. I sent him a section of the frame tubing as a fit dummy. 3. Harry sent the parts he and Shobe made attached to a template of the sidecar frame. We forgot to allow for the existing weld beads on the joint we are mounting to so a little creative grinding was required but the fit is spot on. Next, welding them on.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on August 03, 2014, 11:53:06 AM
The sidecar mounts are welded on and painted. The fuel tank, pump, and battery are mounted. I moved it back from the exhaust pipe and I'm going to put a shield between them.

I needed to test the new fuel system. After sitting since Bonneville last year the old one lunger actually fired up on the first kick. Happy dance!


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on August 03, 2014, 04:28:06 PM
What did you expect??? Its a HONDA :-D

So your ready and more than 2-weeks to go......................we have a lot to do, but hope to test-fire both bikes next weekend 8-)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on August 05, 2014, 06:24:31 PM
The stiffen the forks I made a brace for the legs. It is more hefty than it looks. I can't get my wheel fairing/fender on over it but for our test run I'll consider safety over fasty. I will try to fit a regular fender on the brace to keep the spray out of my kisser. I fashioned a shield between the exhaust pipe and gas tank and slipped an adjustable pipe extension over the end so we can play with the exhaust length tuning. Oh, and spent too much time crafting a wooden exhaust plug.
Time to get serious about the fairing.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on August 05, 2014, 09:07:29 PM
Hate to advise this but dump the fancy wood exhaust plug and get a rubber ball or make one out of plastic or maybe aluminum. If you travel through rain on the way to the races you'll know why I give this piece of advise. It comes from experience. Remember, wood swells when it gets wet.

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on August 09, 2014, 10:20:43 AM
Rubber and wood jokes aside, I see the wisdom in your suggestion and rigged a rubber plug. Effective and appropriate... but no soul. LOL Reports from Seattle hint that the sidecar is now welded up. Can't wait to try and fit bike and hack together, that will happen at Bonneville.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on August 09, 2014, 11:22:49 AM
Sorry to rain on your parade so to speak but we had eight of them to get out. It wasn't a happy time!  :x :x :roll:

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on August 17, 2014, 11:17:50 PM
For the most part anyone looking won't see much of the work I did this year. Didn't get past lowering the gas tank onto the bottom rail, gearing it down for the new 1 mile drag strip rule, and affixing the sidecar mounts. I wanted to tweak the exhaust but ran into fitting problems that will require a pipefitter. I also wanted to craft a new fairing but that seemed a bit horse before the cart to make it before I got the sidecar mounted. I am looking forward to seeing if two things built half a country apart will actually fit together.

Wife Tucker is going high tech. I got her a tachometer and she promises to read it.

See ya on the salt. ~Brian


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on August 18, 2014, 01:48:24 PM
I put a tach on the new build..............but stayed naked on the Tiger Cub.............Its a single and I count fast :roll:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on August 18, 2014, 03:45:38 PM
When I run out of fingers and toes I can only guess at the RPM.  :-D
Tucker has the will but she's not an old saddle tramp like some of us. Her ear isn't tuned that well and I'm hoping the tach might help her shift in the power band.
Scrambler, I'm anxious to see your new project.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: generatorshovel on August 18, 2014, 05:14:03 PM
Practice for ya Scrambler
http://youtu.be/Uh6mtzR9Yr4
Hint,,,it maxes out @ 12,000 rpm, somewhere, you guess ?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on September 03, 2014, 10:28:23 AM
This year's Bonneville event was mixed. They managed to find an island to run on and when we did ride the track was decent. The problem was that between last minute construction, the weather, and traffic management, my runs were far and few between. Harry showed up with a sidecar that ran straight and true but there were a few mounting issues that took a day and 1/2 to solve. We lost a day to wind and another to wet track. Then when all was good we cooled our heels for 6 hours in line. Cutting the under 125 mph bikes to a 1 mile run-up may have saved minutes but dead track time still wasted hours. While the "Basic" riders sat in line for hours the high speed riders were hot lapping 4 to our 1. Access to the track was not equitable. I would suggest that anytime one line started growing too long that they bleed some off to the shorter lines.

The sidecar rig turned out to roll much better than I anticipated. It was a bit squirrely when empty but felt more solid with the required 132 lbs of weight on board. And even better with a human. I only got in two runs, 89 mph down and 91 mph back. One attempt was thwarted by a fuel pump issue. All the work I did lowering the tank and using a fuel pump only slowed me down. The pump overpowered the needle valve and the bike ran rich. On my passenger run the fuel flow stuttered and I had to turn off. I fell victim to the maxim, "The enemy of good is better." So... back to a high tank and gravity feed.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on September 03, 2014, 05:48:35 PM
Brian,
It was great to see you and Tucker again and I'm glad you at least go some track time.  You had a plan after last year and followed it to successful completion.  There will always be bugs with new set-ups.

I've heard your complaint from others about the wait time.  I am working with another competitor to address this issue and I will forward you our recommendations for comments.  We realize that the weather and site conditions made for challenging management, but their solution was less than ideal.

Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on September 26, 2014, 06:17:55 PM
Harry's sidecar performed marvelously on the salt but the nose hung lower than I was comfortable with and I couldn't toe the rear brake. I raised the front end and cut off the corner that blocked my foot. That required extra braces abut I think it is stronger and more ride friendly than before. I also had the bolt-on rear end welded on. I usually haul my stuff to Ed in KC but Phil is just down the street and volunteered to do the welding. Roxy, the top dog around here says he laid down some good beads.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 03, 2014, 05:05:33 PM
I posted this on tech and BMST but I thought it should be on my bike page too. When I pulled the carb off my bike, it had a teaspoon of dry salty looking granules in the empty float bowl. It has a fuel filter but runs a velocity stack. Then I pulled the carb on my wife's bike. It has air and fuel filters and thanks to a petcock that seeps a little, the float bowl stayed full of gas. Amazingly, it too harbored salt crystals. There were even some in the intake. I'm thinking the only access to her bowl was through the gas line. Since the same thing happening in two different bikes with the only thing in common being their source of fuel. I theorize that there was salt in the race gas we purchased from the truck. As the gas evaporated and refilled the bowl, it became concentrated and formed crystals. Has anyone who raced BMST this season had this happen? Any other theories? Photos below...


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 05, 2014, 10:50:12 PM
Clue: I have drained and inspected both gas tanks, neither show any sign of salt like deposits. So the gas may not be contaminated. It is looking more and more like they are forming when the saline heavy air meets the gas. But I am still astounded by how much formed in both carb float bowls, it's not like there is an air scoop directing air into the float bowl.

Since this year was extra salt slushy the frame picked up more oxidation than I like to see so I took a wire brush and spray cans to it. I have a couple open frame tubes in the rear so I sprayed space filler foam into them in a weak attempt to keep moister and salt out.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on October 06, 2014, 10:17:14 PM
Glad to hear you managed a couple of runs.  It was two more than I got.  I'm trying to figure how you got salt in the float bowl.  I've never seen that before.  I've run without a filter on a couple of occasions and never got anything in the bowl.  A tiny bit on the lip of the carb and some rusty valves but never anything in the float bowl.  Last years SpeedWeek was wet and I had salt everywhere.

I had the same problem with the fuel when I had the tank below the carb.  I solved the problem by fitting a return line.  The fuel is pumped up to slightly above the carb.  A tee from the line feeds the carb by gravity (and probably a bit of pressure) and whats not used is returned to the fuel tank.  Its worked for me for years.  The one time I tried running without a return line I had the same problems you had.

I had to dump the sidecar wheel fairing because of the wet salt packing into the fairing.  I also picked up an awful lot of salt in the front fairing as well.  I have to remove the front fairing to tow and after each run there would be around 20 lbs of so in the nose to be scraped out.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/203/3xyh.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/5n3xyhj)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 07, 2014, 09:35:19 AM
Nortonist, The freaky thing is that both of our bikes, one filtered and one velocity stacked, had the same salty deposits in the bowl. My out wheel was picking up salt, not nearly as much as yours, but the fender has an open side so I could at least scrape it clean each stop. I appreciate the heads up, I was thinking of enclosing the wheel as you did but now I see there may be an advantage to easy access for cleaning. My bike wheels didn't cake up as much.

I did run a fuel return line off a T-piece so I was surprised to find my needle valve overpowered and the plug reading extra rich. And that happened with the regulator set on the lowest setting of 1/2. Some others have mentioned struggles to dial in their fuel pumps. One suggestion was to increase the "buoyancy lift" of the floats by increasing their displacement so the needle would seat better. I'm at the point of raising the tank back to its original position and relying on gravity. KISS That way I could park the battery, save weight and concern of its charge. 


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 07, 2014, 10:58:39 PM
Rebuild post race so far. I raised the nose two inches for clearance. Reconfigured to mount (cut a corner off) for brake foot room. Had the two piece frame welded into one and added a handful of gussets at strategic points for strength. Built a fender out of 8 pieces of scrap sheet aluminum and 2 dozen pop-rivets (the making do way). I'm going to add a tapered front to the fender for streamlining. I plan on using handrails for sides to keep the copilot on board. I'm happy with the pre-winter progress, the garage will soon be terra-non-grata due to the cold.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 08, 2014, 02:14:24 AM
Looks extremely well Bruin.  A job well done!!!  The best of luck next year.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on January 19, 2015, 12:20:00 PM
The AMA Champions Banquet in Columbus was a well produced event. It was an honor to be in such august company and nice to hang with the other Salt Racers who attended. Kudos to Erin Hunter who was recognized as a Female Racer of the year. The AMA gave out some nice bling, a big chunky medal and number #1 race plate. I want to recognize the many people who helped me. My wife and teammate Tucker who helped fulfill the dream. Harry Townsend who built the sidecar, Ed Bennett who built the frame (and so much more), Bill Andritch who rebuilt the engine, Phil Gordon who did some post race welding, Rita Boyland-White who was a stalwart sponsor, and the Landracing Forum crew for advice, encouragement, and misc parts donations.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on January 19, 2015, 05:45:10 PM
You handsome devil :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

With a solid platform..............annual tweaks (racing cam, etc) should be beneficial :-) :-) :-)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: MattGuzzetta on January 19, 2015, 06:57:44 PM
Love the bike, sidecars are one of my favorite road racers to watch!  We ran a header tank on our cross country bike years ago because of the fuel pump pressure problem. As you have the pump, battery, and switches already, perhaps you could add a small (1 pint or so) header tank as high above the carb as needed and use a carb needle and float shut off to keep from over filling the header tank. Should be easy enough to get a float shut off from an old car carb someplace. The small displacement records require just as much (maybe more so) work and thought to get as the larger ones.  :-D

Matt Guzzetta


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on January 19, 2015, 07:07:19 PM
Congratulations, Brian (and team) for a job well done.  I hope to see you guys back again this year.
Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: generatorshovel on January 19, 2015, 08:04:00 PM
Love the bike, sidecars are one of my favorite road racers to watch!  We ran a header tank on our cross country bike years ago because of the fuel pump pressure problem. As you have the pump, battery, and switches already, perhaps you could add a small (1 pint or so) header tank as high above the carb as needed and use a carb needle and float shut off to keep from over filling the header tank. Should be easy enough to get a float shut off from an old car carb someplace. The small displacement records require just as much (maybe more so) work and thought to get as the larger ones.  :-D

Matt Guzzetta
My solution to the carb not handling fuel pressure very well,,,
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t24/generatorshovel/Mikholley_zps314441cd.jpg) (http://s156.photobucket.com/user/generatorshovel/media/Mikholley_zps314441cd.jpg.html)

I am enjoying your build Brian , thanks for sharing, :-D


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on January 21, 2015, 12:09:07 PM
Thanks guys, good fuel suggestions. A header tank is a good solution. I'm mulling over my options during the winter with a preference for the most simple solution.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on March 14, 2015, 05:27:41 PM
I cut a new foredeck for the sidehack. The wheel use to hang off the side, now it is incorporated into the deck for better streamlining. That also gives the rider a tad more elbow room. I made the kickstart trap door longer so it would also give access to the mounting bolts. I'm still playing with the fairing design but the deck is a good start.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on March 27, 2015, 10:09:01 AM
I'm making a bullet nose fairing for the sidecar out of an old Weber grill bottom. Head high and shoulder wide it ought to fit the bill. Making do!


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Stainless1 on March 28, 2015, 09:03:55 AM
I suspect it depends on how big "bill" is  :-D  :cheers:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on March 30, 2015, 09:47:19 AM
The BBQ Fairing is mounted and painted. There are about three different shades of red on the bike but from a distance, it will pass.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on March 30, 2015, 10:08:44 AM
Don't forget as per the rules, you need handholds for the passenger (can not use the sidecar mountings
)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on March 30, 2015, 10:24:56 AM
There are two dedicated handholds, one in the nose and one on the side. Both are sturdy. Test riders seem to like holding onto the nose handle with both hands.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on March 30, 2015, 08:37:55 PM
Bruin,
I don't see any post on which to place that stack of barbell weights anymore.  Does that mean what I think?
Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on March 30, 2015, 09:00:50 PM
Looking good........................


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on March 30, 2015, 09:53:39 PM
Tom, I have two co-pilots standing by. My personal belief is that a sidecar should carry a passenger. If nothing else I think riding with a buddy/girlfriend might up the fun quotient. But as the rules allow for a minimum weight of 132 lbs, I will have some dead weight standing by if I'm in record contention. Instead of a stack of weights, I'm building a streamlined coffin to carry them in.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on March 31, 2015, 07:16:18 PM
Brian,
The way I read the rules, you shouldn't need any additional weight if carrying a passenger.  The rule reads as follows:
 "In lieu of a passenger, mount a minimum ballast or weight of 60kg (approx 132lbs) and secure it in the sidecar."
So if you can find an 88 lb passenger, you should be legal.
Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on April 01, 2015, 11:15:54 AM
Tom, I agree with your rule interpretation. Running with a passenger is my preference for fun. But if for some reason they can't ride I will have weights standing by. My volunteers weigh a tad more than 132 so I do reserve the right to run with dead-weight if I'm a hair off a record and need to lighten up. But ideally I want to make a good run with my cohort.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on April 02, 2015, 07:41:53 PM
I could suggest an 88 pounder (will maybe a bit more) who I think would love to be your monkey, but I may need her again to help out as my pit crew!


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: joea on April 03, 2015, 09:44:41 AM
88 lber should be as "aero" as possible...pics will help us help you


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Stainless1 on April 03, 2015, 09:50:44 AM
Tom, I agree with your rule interpretation. Running with a passenger is my preference for fun. But if for some reason they can't ride I will have weights standing by. My volunteers weigh a tad more than 132 so I do reserve the right to run with dead-weight if I'm a hair off a record and need to lighten up. But ideally I want to make a good run with my cohort.

Lighter will not make you faster unless you are running out of room for acceleration. Most bikes are at full speed and working on tuck before they hit the traps. 
Your weights may be more aero than your monkey though  :cheers:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: bak189 on April 03, 2015, 09:57:01 AM
WHAT.....is this MONKEY Sh#$%@t


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Stainless1 on April 03, 2015, 10:10:30 AM
Bak, it's slippery.....  :roll:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on April 03, 2015, 10:37:21 AM
With the new small engine penalty that caps "less than 125mph" bikes run-up distance at 1 mile, I am severely handicapped to reach full speed. It's like a drag race to try and max out by the time I hit the gate. So weight is an issue. No doubt an 88 pounder would be an advantage and dead weights more streamline. At the same time I am obligated to give my current team of co-pilots a chance to ride. My wife has supported my race efforts since day one and my buddy has been a loyal teammate and the primary builder of the hack. Both have earned a place on the deck. And they are great company and will add the fun of the experience. If by some magical chance we have an opportunity to get multiple runs in, and we are short of a record, then I will look for light weight/streamline cargo for the best speed possible. It would be nice to have an 88 #er in the wings.



Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Stainless1 on April 03, 2015, 09:07:07 PM
Race with the SCTA or USFRA, they will let you run 1 and 2 miles to a 1 mile trap.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on April 11, 2015, 03:41:27 PM
Stainless, I wish SCTA was more economic/motorcycle friendly. But I am reasonably happy in the BUB/Speedtrial event. Nothing's perfect.

Tucker suited up for a trial fit behind the hack's BBQ fairing. Looks like a good fit.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on April 13, 2015, 03:17:55 PM
The hack rides so close to the ground that the passenger's overhanging toes can drag on the salt. So I made a bolster pad they can rest their legs on. It elevates the foot 2 inches, just enough for easy toe clearance. I used garden kneel pad foam, double layered. Hand stitching the vinyl cover was tedious. To the side you can see a tail-end brace I added to give extra support to the leg platform.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on July 04, 2015, 03:34:31 PM
HAPPY FOURTH of JULY!!!   What better way to celebrate than rigging Old Glory to the side hack and rattling windows up and down the neighborhood. A straight pipe is better than firecrackers and if there is any day I can get away with it, today is the day.

After sitting since last season it was a thrill to hear the old thumper fire up today. Now I start on the engine fairing in earnest.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on July 04, 2015, 03:42:55 PM
GREAT PIC and Happy 4th back....................That's a good looking parade unit :-D


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on July 27, 2015, 02:00:07 PM
I've started to work on my body fairing in earnest. Step one is making a cardboard template for the sheet aluminum. This is the general shape. I have to work around the kick-start lever and you will note that the right side is shorter so I can shift my weight out over the cart. I plan on making partitions to channel the air directly to the cooling fins. My biggest challenge will be rounding the side-floor corners for less turbulence. It will take lots of cuts and folds.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on July 30, 2015, 10:35:44 PM
Look around for a salvage alloy diesel tank...............nice shape to cut down for the bottom portion of the fairing.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on July 31, 2015, 06:07:12 AM
Just buy Bo  (Wobbly Walrus) a plane ticket to Kansas and he'll bang one out for you in no time!  Might need to buy another 1,000 pop rivets.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on July 31, 2015, 10:19:00 PM
Old Scrambler: A pre-existing form would indeed solve the compound curves issue. I looked but nothing in my scrape pile fit the bill and if nothing else, cutting darts in my sheet aluminum is free. FYI - Tucker isn't bringing her 250 this year, she is dedicated to riding the hack.
Koncretekid: Your BSA cylinder air sleeves inspired me to try it. Yeah, Bo's compound scales came to mind as I was pop-riveting mine together. It's going to take a can of Bondo to even begin to smooth the over-laps. So far everything has come out of garage stock so the price is right.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 31, 2015, 10:44:53 PM
Countersunk aircraft style pop rivets work best.  The trick is to hammer the aluminum over a football dolly with a concave faced hammer.  The metal might harden before it gets to the shape you want.  In that case, rub some soap on it and heat it with a propane torch until the soap turns brown.  Then, beat on it some more until it hardens up again.  It is possible to make large panels this way if you are patient.  An english wheel works good too.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on August 01, 2015, 09:36:01 AM
Wobbly, Your advice is appreciated and will go in the vault. I already finished the compound curves of the bottom pan with the poor tools and talent at hand. It's rough but it has a four inch radius all around the bottom joint. It ain't pretty but with some puddy it should be functional. I hope to mount the topsides today. Pictures soon.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on August 01, 2015, 11:46:02 PM
The cuts and folds look a bit rough but I'm hoping some Bondo will smooth things out enough that it will slip some wind.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 02, 2015, 12:56:06 AM
Those rough areas can be blended together nicely by removing a rivet at a time, covering the area with soap, heating it up until brown, letting it cool, and tapping it down tight with a plastic pear hammer.  The rivet is reinstalled, the rivet next to it is removed, and the process repeated.  A pool ball might be a good dolly.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on August 09, 2015, 10:35:36 PM
I thought a wheel cover and a sidewall on the hack might tame a little wind. Also, the side might help keep the co-pilot onboard.

The Flash Gordon toy is my beta model.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: sofadriver on August 09, 2015, 10:56:55 PM
If I was your monkey,  I'd demand a window.  :evil:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on August 09, 2015, 11:05:17 PM
I don't think the ray gun is legal. :mrgreen:

Mike


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Kiwi Paul on August 09, 2015, 11:25:00 PM
Nah, Mike, The Ray Gun just puts him into Fuel Class, yes?? :-D


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on August 09, 2015, 11:38:38 PM
Hmmm.  I concede to the inspector, who knows the obscure rules much better than I.   :roll:

Mike


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on August 16, 2015, 10:56:05 PM
I followed some of the tips above, annealed the fairing aluminum with soap as a temp gauge, drilled out the rivets on the ill fitting leaves, hammered them into a smoother overlap, and re-riveted. The compound curves are much smoother and will require significantly less filler to get that baby butt smooth effect. Thanks guys.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on August 17, 2015, 09:54:10 AM
Brian................slow down and do it right..............you have another 12 months before we get to run.............maybe a cam is in your future :wink:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on August 18, 2015, 11:37:50 PM
Admittedly, haste does make waste. But I feel like I should finish the build while I'm still on a roll.  It would make me feel better to have something positive come out of this season. A viable bike would be some consolation.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on June 18, 2016, 10:48:28 AM
It has taken some time but I'm back on track with the sidecar hack. Originally the side-sled was built with a plywood bottom. I replaced it with sheet aluminum. Three pieces tacked on with screws and rivets and sealed with adhesive. The overlaps are shingled with the wind. It saves me about 6 pounds and is a much smoother skin.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on September 05, 2016, 12:24:31 PM
So tell us about the 'rebuild' plan..........................I saw you at the SHELL and gave your wife a hug on the salt............ :-) :-) :-)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on September 10, 2016, 10:31:22 AM
This year at the Motorcycle Speed Trials was great. After three wet years and a cancellation this year was a redeemer. There wasn't even water at the boat ramp. The salt was thin but the track was in fair condition. Best of all I even got to hotlap so that I didn't even have to stop at prestage or the start line. As for my runs... My engine fairing seemed to slow me, at 85mph its down by 5 mph. Too fat I suspect. Went faster without it. I ran with weights and passenger. Best passenger was 87mph. I started to slow down again and found that the front brake mechanism was sticking and dragging from a touch of rust. I pulled the shoes off. By the last day I managed to tie last year's speed at 90 mph running with weights. In general I found that I could hit 8,000 rpm (factory redline is 6,500) in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Then it flattened at 7,400 rpm in 4th, and 6,700 rpm in 5th. Because I have to run on the 1 mile track I can barely get to 5th at the timed mile mark. It is like a freakin drag race for me.
Next season: I am looking at a more aerodynamic position for me. I want to do a full Rollie Free layout but the rules say I have to sit or kneel. I'm also looking to gear it to run top speed in 4th and not use 5th. 4th gear ratio is 1.0 while fifth is a true overdrive at 0.84. Thoughts?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on September 10, 2016, 02:58:34 PM
Maybe use a rear sprocket with a couple more teeth?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: tauruck on September 10, 2016, 03:48:16 PM
Exactly Bo.
Good to hear you had a great time Bruin. :cheers: :cheers:


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on September 10, 2016, 04:16:42 PM
I started with a 17-45 ratio and ran 137+ in 5th (overdrive)............switched to 17-43 and ran a 140 in 4th :-) :-)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on September 11, 2016, 09:57:58 AM
I'm currently running a 14/42 front/back combo. I can barely get to 5th by the timing gate and it flattens out around 6,800 rpm and 90 mph. I think I need to run in 4th. Mathematically I can reach the desired speed (90-100 at 7,000-8,000 rpm) with a 16/40 combo. It is taller gearing and assumes 4th can pull it.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on September 12, 2016, 09:59:04 AM
I think your onto something..............Do you lean slightly to the left to 'lighten' the sidecar wheel drag?


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on September 12, 2016, 10:47:40 AM
I can't lean much in my semi-prone position and my center of gravity is so low it's actually hard to fly the hack without turning. But its something to think about. One lesson I learned this year was that riding the 15 miles of cobblestone rough to-and-from track roads was a bone shaker. Not much good on the bike either. The front end would shimmy and shake like a hula girl. So last night I lowered the triple tree down the tubes a couple inches (bottom rail still within the center bubble mark on the level) to take some 'slack' out of the long forks and rigged a fork brace across the lower ends. It will handle better since I had too much trail to start with.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on September 12, 2016, 01:32:29 PM
and you will be an inch or more LOWER :-D


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Stan Back on September 12, 2016, 03:00:43 PM
Yeah -- but the air is thicker down lower.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on September 13, 2016, 10:25:41 AM
I'm still jazzed from BMST and started improving the bike for next year. The cobblestone like roads to the track were a real bone and bike shaker. So I rigged a home-made fork trace to tame a little of the fork wobble. It looks like fender will fit over it with a little creative trimming.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on September 16, 2016, 10:37:40 AM
I finally got around to breaking down my carburetor post BMST '16. When I last ran in '14 I dumped about a teaspoon of salty crystalline crud out of the bowl. (Same on my wife's bike.) I never did hear a satisfactory explanation for it. Granted it was sloppy wet all that week. This year it was bone dry, even the boat ramp was dry. This year there was only the smallest pinch of salt. Could be because it was nice and dry, could be because I drained the bowl and sprayed gum-out into the works a couple times through the week.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on September 16, 2016, 12:32:57 PM
Is it salt or is the result of aluminum corrosion. Some gasoline additives will give you a white crystalline sludge and alcohol will give it to you big time if you don't purge the system after use.

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on September 16, 2016, 05:18:41 PM
I can only say it looked like dirty salt with big crystals like you see at Bonnie. A good teaspoon full in the carbs on both bikes. I don't use alcohol fuel per say, I used the race gas from the gas man on the track. A few others have reported the same thing.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on September 16, 2016, 05:32:04 PM
I have the same 'crystals' in my bowls............I attribute them to particulate-salt that enters the tank through the breather vent. I had significant amounts in 2014 because my vent tube lead to the hollow steering stem.........which was filled with salt after a few runs with a too-small fender. This year we had a much better fender and inserted a filter in the stem resulting in minimal 'crystals' :-)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on September 16, 2016, 10:08:58 PM
Vent... That is as good an explanation as I have heard. Though in '14 I ran a closed loop fuel pump system. But of course the cap was vented. Tucker ran a standard gravity feed with the same results. I half wonder if the gas truck was contaminated.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: 55chevr on September 17, 2016, 06:46:21 AM
I always get salt crystals in the corners of the float bowl.  I assume that it is drawn in by low pressure in the float bowl.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on September 17, 2016, 10:47:53 AM
BTW............my bowl vent tubes are connected to the air-cleaner box.........


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Peter Jack on September 17, 2016, 10:54:28 AM
BTW............my bowl vent tubes are connected to the air-cleaner box.........

Just a suggestion from the peanut gallery. Would you not be better off having a separate air cleaner for the vent tubes? It wouldn't have to be very large and it would eliminate the possibility of the vents being exposed to a low pressure area which could certainly affect the mixtures during a run. Always nice to eliminate one more variable.  :-D :-D :-D

Pete


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on September 17, 2016, 11:22:38 PM
Its a good suggestion.........but I have a ram-air system and the vents are stubbed into the positive side of the box.............


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on September 23, 2016, 10:59:43 AM
In an effort to 'get small' in the wind I took a hard look at the sidecar wheel. It kinda sticks out there because I needed room to kickstart the engine, thus the passenger and all go pushed outboard. But through the judicious use of trap doors I can move the passenger in and bring the wheel to the inside of the frame, narrowing the hack by 8 inches. And it still meets the 32" track requirement.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on September 25, 2016, 05:17:39 PM
I was about to break out the sawsall to relocate the hack tire from the outside of the frame to the inside and thus narrow the profile significantly. Luckily Mom always said, "Measure twice, cut once." It turned out that I had flipped two measurements. Instead of having 2 inches clearance, I have two inches overlap and encroach on the required 32" minimum track width. I can't get there from here with the wheel I have or seriously modifying the frame. So as the Church Lady liked to say, "Never mind."


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 01, 2016, 11:20:02 AM
I thought I would try to cool the engine a bit. Here is an image that shows the internal plumbing cast into the right engine cover, the flow, and how I would tap into it to plumb the oil cooler. The places marked to tap into the flow actually have marks on the case from the factory showing where to do it. As though it was going to be an option at one time. Research shows that the stock flow to the upper end is pretty healthy. I don't see how changing the flow direction/order to the cylinder head and rocker-cam could be detrimental.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on October 01, 2016, 09:37:31 PM
I won't make you go any faster, if that's what you want to know!


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 01, 2016, 10:55:10 PM
True, not faster in and of itself. But if I can feel better about controlling heat in this air cooled wet sump engine, I can contemplate running hotter fuels. If nothing else, experience has taught me that a cool running engine is faster than hot scrap metal.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Koncretekid on October 02, 2016, 08:45:16 AM
Brian,
I believe that your motor was very popular with the Flat Track crowd, and there are still some roadracing with the AHRMA guys, so you might try asking some of them what they recommend. Stan (HPbyStan) on the B50.org site may be able to help with that question.
Tom


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 02, 2016, 12:13:31 PM
Tom, Thanks for the tip and contact. I'm in touch with the XR guys on Thumper Talk and a couple of experienced racers. Believe me, I'm dipping my toe into nitro very slowly.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 09, 2016, 01:18:49 PM
Not every day is a racer day. I paused to work on my '66 BSA Lightening. It is a dual carb 650 and runs great. But the twin carbs require some attention. When I first rebuilt it I ran the original style Amals but it turned out they were worn differently and despite same jets and synced throttle pull, one cylinder ran lean and got toasted. I put on new mikunis and they sync up well. But I never ride the old girl enough so they gum up now and then. Once bitten and twice shy about the carbs not flowing equally and being a big fan of KISS I found a single carb BSA Thunderbolt style head in my parts bin. So today I got into the zen of lapping the old valves into the old head till they fit like new. I admit that I enjoy giving old metal a new life. And it cost me nothing.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 09, 2016, 11:40:13 PM
Brian, that was what I did 40+ years ago.  Ran a T-bolt head most of the time and used the dual carb one for racing.

The dual carb heads work a lot better if the intake manifolds are connected with a 5/16 dia hose so the manifold vacuum can be equalized.  Amal carbs are made new by Burlen Fuel Systems.  New carbs with slides made by Surrey Cycle Supply might be the best setup.  You can have double carb speed and tractable running.

The lightnings and spitfires often came with dual throttle cables.  The best setup is a single throttle cable that splits to duals under the tank.  It is a lot easier to keep slides synchronized with the forked cable setup.

A well sorted Lightning is faster than a Triumph Bonneville of the same era.     


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 13, 2016, 10:21:48 PM
Wally, good info on the BSA. Of course it is proving problematic. Nothing just bolts on. I'll let you know how it goes.

Meanwhile back on the racer. I decided to tap into the pump line, detour the oil to the cooler, and return it back into the terminal of the line. All parts serviced should get cooler oil. I plan on using copper lines instead of rubber for a little more cooling.

Now I'm working with my fuel chemist and engineer on how to titrate nitropropane in using baby steps.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on October 16, 2016, 11:25:31 AM
I made a little progress converting the '66 BSA Lightening into a single carb Thunderbolt. The four head-rocker cover studs were too big and in the wrong position by 1/16 of an inch so I couldn't simply use zerts. I threaded an aluminum rod to plug the holes, used the cover as a templet for the new holes, drilled, taped, and put in the right size stubs. The cover now fits and no one is more surprised than I.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 12, 2016, 11:40:39 AM
I finished converting the '66 BSA from a dual carb Lightning to a single carb Thunderbolt. It took more tooling around than I wanted but the results are good. I rebuilt an old Amal Concentric so I could ride retro. The jet settings I found on the net seem perfect. It starts easy, runs strong, and the plugs read light tan. Now I can get back to my racer.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: manta22 on November 12, 2016, 12:14:12 PM
Nice Beezer.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Old Scrambler on November 13, 2016, 12:15:48 AM
Brian...........you've come along way from the bicycle days of Panama 8-) 8-) 8-)


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 18, 2016, 07:25:54 PM
Thanks for the nice comments on the BSA. Meanwhile on the racer...
I had plumbed the 'spare' sidecover for an external oil cooler. It should fit, looked like it would fit, and it did fit except for one little ole thang. The clutch activation mechanism. The original uses a little pan-piston to engage the internal clutch. The 'spare' has a machined boot in the rod that looks as it would interface with a rod of some sort. Anyway the difference is enough for me to call the spare 'practice' and commit to plumbing the original. Anyway, it turned out better the second time around.


Title: Re: Solo to Sidecar by STD
Post by: Bruin on November 25, 2016, 12:38:20 PM
Because the 'spare' sidecover didn't fit I plumbed the original. I mounted it the other day so in theory I've got an oil cooler. Now I'm hoping I can run a fuel hotter than off-the-shelf gas and not cook the head. Serious homework ahead of me.