Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Water/Methanol Injection => Topic started by: SteveM on October 04, 2013, 09:51:11 AM
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With the recent washouts of World of Speed and World Finals, I now have plenty of time plan, test, and tune before running my H/DT entry in 2014.
While dyno testing my Rampage, it became evident that EGT's were going to become a limiting factor with respect to how hard I could push my engine. The dyno operator / instructor asked me about using water and/or methanol injection.
Perusing the SCTA rulebook, I don't see any mention of what is and what is not allowed in terms of injection for diesel truck vehicles. I assume (I know, dangerous, right?) that straight water would not be a problem, but I can definitely see where SCTA might object to the use of methanol in a water/methanol injection system.
Am I missing something in the rulebook?
As always, any advice and/or guidance would be appreciated.
Steve
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I do not think so :-D
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Steve
Looking at the rules it says that "event diesel" must be used....my thought (for whatever it's worth) is adding anything other then water would make it "fuel" not event diesel..
Bill
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I had water injection with my turbo GMC years ago. As i remember I had to show up with an empty water container and fill it with straight water. No anything else. And then it was sealed same as my gas tank.
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Sounds reasonable, Rich. I'm thinking that the right amount of water injection just might help me keep EGT's down enough for the engine to survive more than a few passes.
Steve.
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I had water injection with my turbo GMC years ago. As i remember I had to show up with an empty water container and fill it with straight water. No anything else. And then it was sealed same as my gas tank.
Same as we have done. Come with some sealed drinking water and be ready to drink some.
We didn't have time to install water injection this past year, but will as we still have the Snow injection we used in the past. I'm a firm believer that it probably saved our butts. The only engine problems we had were self inflected and I felt the water injection kept them from being major (of course I have no way to prove that). It can help performance of course but we mainly used it to help protect the motor a little more,
Sum
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My thoughts match up with yours, Sumner. I don't believe that adding water will add power, but if it can keep my diesel from dropping a pre-cup or melting a piston top, it's doing the job that needs to be done.
I've already been in contact with Snow, and have a system spec-ed out, but haven't spend the $$ yet.
Steve.
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Steve
in addition to water injection, improving charge air cooling will be directly be reflected by EGT. Using a 2 stage cooling as in air/air with water spray, then thru an ice water cooler will provide charge air temps of less than ambient on the salt. My data was with a gasoline engine, with turbo air flow of 75 pounds per minute,
I don't quite know the failure modes of diesel engines with high EGT's, I would expect melted components like turbine wheels, but Inconnel turbine wheels and exhaust valves were common when I was running the Merkur.
After one failure with a lesser alloy, I switched. With these parts 1900 degrees F could be withstood. The old Roush turbo GTO engines were consistently running 1850 f.
With your water injection, as others have said, you need to provide a way to seal the tank, and have sealed containers of water that they can observe being added. I've never run water injection but coincidently
just read a very old white paper where Ford did some testing in the mid 50's with water injection and how it affects NOx and HC. There findings were that no power improvements at the conditions they were testing.
Interesting that they were looking at these things so long ago. Not surprising though. In the very early 70's I spent several years at research and worked on and witnessed some really interesting programs. I sure learned a bunch.
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These VW cylinder heads have inconel "pre-cups" where the fuel is injected, and where the glow plugs reside. This is an indirect injection head, as compared to the newer style of direct injection heads. These pre-cups are basically press-fit into the aluminum heads, but are also held captive (somewhat) by the head gasket and head when the engine is assembled. A lot of heat gets concentrated in the pre-cups.
Too much EGT can disturb the fit between the pre-cups and the Al head, causing very bad things to happen. Piston melt-down is also a possibility, but the pre-cups are the main point of failure on these VW heads.
I'm already running an air/water intercooler, but it might be possible to plumb an air/air unit in series with the air/water. The good news is that there's plenty of time between now and SpeedWeek to get a well sorted out system.
I don't really expect any measurable HP increase as a result of water injection, but if it can help the engine live a longer life, it's worth the cost and trouble.
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I wouldn't bother with an A/A unless you're spraying something (N20 or H20) on the outside to cool on it... I believe
you're using the sameA2W intercooler that we are... cheap, but effective. A bigger ice box that will allow CONSTANT
reduced IAT's, possiblybaffled to separate the pre-IC and post-IC water (think septic tank style) and gradually mixes
warmer water with the ice water over the course of a run... Water injection is a great help, but with the right set-up
you can achieve ~ 40 degree IAT's, which should greatly help EGT's as well.
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Good tips there. My cooler is a 48 quart unit, and I set up an expanded metal "dam" across the width of it, mainly to keep ice from lodging against the inlet of the bilge pump. The return water is routed to the far side of the cooler, so it has to pass through the ice to get back to the pump.
I don't have any measuring devices on the pre and post IC piping, but I know it's working because I went through 20# of ice over the course of 3 dyno pulls.
I'd like to get all the help I can get keeping the EGT's down, so as much ice as I can get in the cooler, along with water injection, should help quite a bit.
Steve.
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That's high-tech... I used a basket strainer :lol:
IAT gauges from any GM can be wired up to
give you readings... My buddy runs one through
a signal converter to a 0-150F water temp gauge
on his TDI. Gives a ballpark, at least.
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Hi,
Methanol in a diesel engine...
Won't it act as WD40 or white spirit in a gasoline engine, just pre-ignite too early?
Patrick
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Do you have oil squirting on the underside of the pistons ---get as much up there as you can
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This engine does have factory installed oil squirters which supply oil to the underside of the pistons. The oiling system is pretty much stock on this engine, with the exceptions of a high volume pump and an external cooler. I'm worried more about the pre-cups and the head getting too hot, as compared to the pistons.
Patrick - a lot of the high-powered diesel sled pullers and drag trucks use hefty doses of water and methanol injected into the intake to increase power and lower EGT's. I'm not aware of any pre-ignition issues associated with methanol usage, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.
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Someplace, soewhere -- either here or in the Rule Book -- this has been discussed. I remember sealing water tanks (like gas tanks) and using unopened pure water containers, etc. Search and you shall find. (I don't know how.)
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Steve, I have a snow system I am not using. You are welcome to use it if you wish
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Steve, I have a snow system I am not using. You are welcome to use it if you wish
KAAZZOOWWWWW! Thanks for the offer - I don't know how I overlooked your post for so long.
Sending a PM now.
Steve.
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I would consider plumbing additional water to the area of the head that has the pre-cups much like the SBC guys do on spraying, no squirting a lot of additional water to the area between the side by side exhaust valves.
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I would consider plumbing additional water to the area of the head that has the pre-cups much like the SBC guys do on spraying, no squirting a lot of additional water to the area between the side by side exhaust valves.
I'm going to have to let this soak into my brain for a bit, then take a look at a spare cylinder head to see just what is possible.
Steve.
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Steve, I have a snow system I am not using. You are welcome to use it if you wish
Email sent.
Steve.
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PM sent
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Valve Spring Oilers, spraying oil on the valve springs and the valve stems will also remove a ton of heat especially the exhaust. It is possible to cool as much with oil as one can with air and water.