Landracing Forum Home

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SpeedWeek 2013 => Topic started by: JC Sparks on August 19, 2013, 03:33:09 PM



Title: Tech
Post by: JC Sparks on August 19, 2013, 03:33:09 PM
  I will not mention any names or the class so don't ask. We had been told long before coming to the salt that a certain tire was not legal in our class. We understand that rules are in place for a good reason so we use the approved tire. We see in the tech line that the competition has the tire on that we know is not approved so it was mentioned to tech. The owner is told they can run it but are not allowed to exceed 200 MPH with it. Ok... Well the competition proceeds to set the record at well over 200. When tech is ask about it, all they say it the record stands. I'm sure the tire had very little to do with there success but it just gets under my skin. JC


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: jh333 on August 19, 2013, 03:53:37 PM
The Sheriffs have their own rules that apply as they see fit. Sooner or later and Iwould bet on sooner this type of officiating will ruin this sport.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: Tman on August 19, 2013, 04:08:15 PM
JC, should have protested it. You  guys worked Dodge hard to have a cheater do that to you.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: desotoman on August 19, 2013, 04:46:36 PM
There is a board meeting this Friday night. Contact one of these people, and explain what happened, and hopefully it will be talked about at the meeting.

Tom G.

BNI Board Members

Chairman, Miriam Macmillan,
miriammacmillan@me.com,
(310) 803-7032   

SCTA Rep
Bill Lattin
blattin69@gmail.com
(951) 845-8818

Treasurer
Russ Eyres
reyres@san.rr.com
(858) 453-3044

Member at Large    
Roy Creel
cree@antelecom.net
(661) 268-1902


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: nrhs sales on August 19, 2013, 04:55:44 PM
Quote
The Sheriffs have their own rules that apply as they see fit. Sooner or later and I would bet on sooner this type of officiating will ruin this sport.


I would tend to agree with you.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JR529 on August 19, 2013, 05:09:28 PM
why is this tire not allowed? Was it a perceived safety issue?

Was the speed limit enforced for the first runs but lifted after subsequent inspections?

Can anybody who goes through this same process use the same tire?


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: Captthundarr on August 19, 2013, 08:33:13 PM
What's the purpose of the rule book if the tech gods make it up as they see fit. :x And they give other sanctioning bodies crap about not being consistent. I thought bonerville was supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: rouse on August 20, 2013, 09:24:15 AM
Tires are a big deal when it comes to safety for motorcycles over 200 MPH, I want get into the tire quest issues I've been thru the past several months, But one thing is for sure, I will not personally run any tire that the manufacturer wouldn't certify for the speed I plan to run.

So what's happening, is folks are running under rated tires, some brands have proven to hold up, others have had problems, and then there is others that nobody knows yet. All and all the truth is motorcycle tires over 200 MPH is a shot in the dark as to which is best, or even safe for that matter. I don't know of any brand or part number that have been laboratory tested and certified speed rated for any speed over 200.

I do know this, I'd sure fill like hell if I was the guy that forced someone to run a particular tire brand and/or part number and later find out that they got hurt on account of a tire failure.

I agree that tech inspection has to be consistent for everyone, but this tire issue needs to leave a little wiggle room for the racers own judgement and research as to what tire will work for their bike. I know there are some folks that will do stupid things ( can't fix stupid ), but others have done their research and made reasoned decisions on tire choice. If need be maybe they should have to back up that choice with documentation, and if that's the case, I wouldn't force them to run another tire. There used to be a thing call "personal responsibility" for your own actions.

Another thing, I rather outrun my competitor on the track, and if it came right down to it, I'd loan him the tires off my bike before I'd let him get "DQed" in tech. That's just me;  I have to look at that trophy on the mantel.


Rouse

Rouse


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: jimmy six on August 20, 2013, 02:00:20 PM
Is this a car or bike issue?....


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: rouse on August 20, 2013, 02:40:54 PM
Bike Tires

Rouse


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: Tman on August 20, 2013, 02:41:19 PM
Is this a car or bike issue?....

Bike


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: nrhs sales on August 20, 2013, 04:08:20 PM
would this bike with the unapproved tires perhaps have been blue?


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: saltwheels262 on August 20, 2013, 05:58:14 PM
I have yet to run an SCTA / BNI event.
I don't go anywhere near 200 mile per hour.

anyway, I thought the tires for those speeds on motorcycles were to be Bridgestone bt003.
all the better if they are shaved.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: bak189 on August 20, 2013, 08:01:14 PM
Yep....nothing has changed in SCTA/BNI M/C Tech......it is just the luck of the draw.....it all depends who does the Tech. inspection and how he/she reads the rules, or does not read the rules......................................................

.........Oh, where is Jack Dolan......

Run the BUB.....Drew and his Tech people do a great job and follow the book.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: NathanStewart on August 20, 2013, 11:20:01 PM
How far over 200 is "well over 200"?


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JC Sparks on August 21, 2013, 10:34:31 AM
 Let me make this clear,  I am by no means accusing anyone of cheating.  I just did not like the inconsistency of the tech department.
The tire was not to exceed 200 MPH.  But was allowed to set a record at 218 MPH. I congratulate the new record holder and look forward to
competing against them next year. JC


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: Tman on August 21, 2013, 10:39:45 AM
It is easy to see why things like this happen. There are so many tech vols out there that it has to be impossible to keep them all on the same page. Some things get overlooked, some things get looked at harder due to other events (tubing dia. this year was a hot button) and the lines get blurred. I chalk it up to human nature. Nothing more, nothing less in a totally non-accusing way. Just an observation.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JR529 on August 21, 2013, 11:43:36 AM
If the tire was allowed but with a speed limit of 200 MPH, and a run (or runs) were made then the tires reinspected, wouldn't a reasonable path be to raise the speed limit if the tire was demonstrating good behaviour?

I don't see this as being overlooked, inconsistant, or ruining the sport. I see it as tech guys being reasonable as more data becomes available.

Of course there are those with their personal agendas still scurrying about but this is LR so that's the norm...  :roll:


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: saltwheels262 on August 21, 2013, 12:16:42 PM
the rules are for everyone,
no matter what send you your running at.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: LSR Mike on August 21, 2013, 01:13:05 PM
The SCTA doesn't have a way of policing speed limits on Vehicles that I know of. If one is placed on a competitor, how is it communicated to the Race Director? Starter? Timing Stand?





Title: Re: Tech
Post by: jlmccuan on August 21, 2013, 01:40:59 PM
What are those orange stickers with "XXX MPH Max" written in magic marker for?


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: rouse on August 21, 2013, 01:48:11 PM
Like I said earlier, with the tire situation as it is...... There needs to be some wiggle room for the racers that actually researches the tire that will work for their bike, and if need be, have backup documentation.

So far there seems to only be a couple "acceptable" tires, I'm sure given time there will be others added to the list. Got to run'em and inspect them closely for problems before you know what will work and which ones wont.

Rouse


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: desotoman on August 21, 2013, 02:30:54 PM
If the tire was allowed but with a speed limit of 200 MPH, and a run (or runs) were made then the tires reinspected, wouldn't a reasonable path be to raise the speed limit if the tire was demonstrating good behaviour?

I don't see this as being overlooked, inconsistant, or ruining the sport. I see it as tech guys being reasonable as more data becomes available.

Of course there are those with their personal agendas still scurrying about but this is LR so that's the norm...  :roll:

In reading the rule book, and now knowing this was a motorcycle, John has the right response.

In the 2013 rule book under section 7.B.8 page 111, it states that Tires rated "H" Cannot be used beyond the speed rating. Then it goes on to say that "Any run in excess of 200 mph requires that the contestant return to Technical inspection area where the tires shall be examined for apparent deterioration or damage before further runs are permitted."

So the way I read the rules is that the inspectors have the final say on how fast you can go with the particular tire involved depending on its condition.

Tom G. 


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: NathanStewart on August 21, 2013, 02:51:56 PM
The SCTA doesn't have a way of policing speed limits on Vehicles that I know of. If one is placed on a competitor, how is it communicated to the Race Director? Starter? Timing Stand?

The SCTA certainly does have a way to police speed limits.  Speed limit sticker is applied to vehicle (and annotated in log book), vehicle comes to line, starter sees speed limit and radios tower to be advised of speed limit.  Vehicle runs and if under limit all is good.  If over limit, vehicle is yellow tagged and sent back to tech.

A "verbal" speed limit isn't enforceable obviously so unless that vehicle had a speed limit sticker on it, it doesn't have a speed limit.

FWIW, Matt Shuss is pretty draconian when it comes to tech/safety/rules stuff.  I witnessed this first hand when I decided to escort a non-English speaking competitor to impound so as to make sure they got to the right spot in time.  Competitor had a turbo mounted under his seat and originally had an aluminum exhaust coming from it and naturally, a hole was blown through it so it was taken off.  Well Matt spotted this and said that they'd have to repair the exhaust and re-install it if they wanted to make a record run because the exahust gas stream was dangerously close to the rider's leg.  I really doubt that this was just some kind of oversight on anyone's part.   


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: LSR Mike on August 21, 2013, 04:08:39 PM
My last trip to the salt was in 2010, so apparently things have changed, I've never seen a MAX Speed Magic Marker Orange Tag on the Salt or at El Mirage when I was there. I see now in the rule book it was just added this year.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JohnLevie on August 22, 2013, 12:18:48 PM
Now that we know the record was set at 218 mph, I can conclude the tire in question was mine.  This was on the 3411 1650 SC/G Scott Guthrie Racing entry.  The tire is a D1445 Front Runner, and mounted on the sidecar rig.  The rules clearly state that the tire is not to be used as a drive tire, which it was not.  The same type tire has been in use on this bike since 2007, has had multiple runs over 220, and has never had any attention paid to it (by tech) as it is not a drive wheel, until this year.  I appreciate the tech committee pointing out to us that we may have issues with this specific tire, and that we need to pay special attention to the tire.  The bike is new to us, and we expected a learning curve, as well as requesting extra scrutiny by the tech group to help point out any issues that may exist.  The tech group are the professionals in this area, and a fresh set of eyes to help us out is always appreciated.  They are here to help the racer and protect the rest of the competitors’ right to race. 
As the tire is not a typical bike tire, Lee Kennedy was asked to advise us on what he thought would be a proper method of gathering data on the tire. We appreciate a car tech official helping out on this, as they are the group with experience in the car tire arena.  This started with multiple 3 mile runs, the first couple being limited to 175, then to 200.  Then we were granted the rights to run to the 4 mile mark under power, but limited to 200 to see if there were any changes.  After this, we were granted a full power pass to the 4.  The first pass was 217 mph, which qualified us.  We took the bike to impound and ran a 219 back up run.  This set the record at 218. 
Keep in mind that immediately (before I could get my helmet strap removed) following EVERY run, Lee Kennedy was there to measure temperature and pressure change, where zero pressure change occurred, and the temperature of the tire raised by less than 3 degrees every run.  The attention that was paid to the tire ultimately gave us the ability to run to the 5, under full power, but we chose to license up my Father on the bike.  He did not exceed my speed; therefore we did not gain any valuable data for the 5 mile passes.  All of his runs were under 200.
Below is the note from tech:
 07/17/09
Following a report compiled by Tech Committee Chair, Cars Lee Kennedy, Motorcycle Committee Chair Van Butler and Goodyear Tire engineers the SCTA Board of Directors voted to make the 17x22x2.5 tire illegal for use as a DRIVE TIRE.
The tire in question is a 22x2.5 on a 17” rim and many tire manufacturers make this size of racing tire for drag racing.  It is made by Goodyear and is listed as a “Top Fuel” "Frontrunner" and has a tire code of D1445. Carroll Shelby has a part number of 808-102-089 or for the 22x4.5x17 a part number of 808-130-089. Some examples of other tire manufactures who make this tire include Mickey Thompson with a part number of 672-3004 and Phoenix tire with a part number of 932-PH460.
Thank you for observing the tech committee and their diligence to ensure that the competitors are safe, and ensure yourselves that no special privileges were given to anyone regarding the bending of any rules whatsoever.  Also, you can be sure that the interpretation of the rules if unclear is always to keep the racer safe, regardless of whom the inspector is.  Be it Van, Matt, Doug, Tom, or any of the other inspectors, both motorcycle and car.
YHS,
John Levie,
Scott Guthrie Racing


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: sabat on August 22, 2013, 12:50:40 PM
Well done John, and congrats on the red hat!  -Dean


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JohnLevie on August 22, 2013, 01:06:28 PM
Thank you Dean!   


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: joea on August 22, 2013, 01:19:28 PM
super job, big congrats..!!


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JimL on August 22, 2013, 01:35:22 PM
John, it was great to see your whole family there for your hat.  Sometimes we forget how much this is a family...both in kind and in spirit. 

Glad I got to shake your hand on that one.
Jim


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JC Sparks on August 22, 2013, 01:38:43 PM
 I have never met you John, and I tried not to make this post sound like an attack on you or your team, because it wasn't. This is why I did not mention names or class. We had been told that that tire was a sportsman front runner not a top fuel front runner and we would not be able to use it on the side car. Once again congratulations on reseting the record and I look forward to competing with you next year.  JC Sparks


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JR529 on August 22, 2013, 01:49:45 PM
Sounds like everything progressed in a safe, planned, reasonable and up front method. Congratulations on the record and the hat, you guys did a great job!


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JohnLevie on August 22, 2013, 02:57:36 PM
Thank you all.  :cheers:


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JC Sparks on August 22, 2013, 03:16:25 PM
 Just for the record. I have 30 years of Top Fuel racing experience. The Goodyear tire #D1445 is designated as a sportsman tire only.  The Only Goodyear front tire that is approved or advertised at a Top Fuel tire is the Goodyear #D2904.  This info comes from Goodyear racing center Akron, Ohio.  JC


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: Tman on August 22, 2013, 03:26:06 PM
As it often does it comes down to communication, or lack thereof.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JohnLevie on August 22, 2013, 03:30:04 PM
JC-Good luck on the salt.
JL


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: jh333 on August 22, 2013, 03:31:17 PM
And who the Sheriffs decide they want to help or hinder !!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JR529 on August 22, 2013, 05:34:07 PM
And who the Sheriffs decide they want to help or hinder !!!!!!!!!!

 :roll:


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: Sumner on August 22, 2013, 07:02:17 PM
Just for the record. I have 30 years of Top Fuel racing experience. The Goodyear tire #D1445 is designated as a sportsman tire only.  The Only Goodyear front tire that is approved or advertised at a Top Fuel tire is the Goodyear #D2904.  This info comes from Goodyear racing center Akron, Ohio.  JC

I'm wondering why they are next to each other in the frontrunner section.....

http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/pdf/Drag_010313.pdf (http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/pdf/Drag_010313.pdf)

http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/dragspecial.html (http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/dragspecial.html)

It looks like he jumped through some hoops for not only himself but for anyone else that wants to use that tire in the future so if I was a bike person I'd take advantage of what he has done.  It is a narrower tire than the 2904, so that is good  :-),

Sum


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: grumm441 on August 22, 2013, 07:26:38 PM

Congratulations on finally getting that Red hat John
I would've liked to be there to see it
G


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: Tman on August 22, 2013, 09:37:03 PM
Just for the record. I have 30 years of Top Fuel racing experience. The Goodyear tire #D1445 is designated as a sportsman tire only.  The Only Goodyear front tire that is approved or advertised at a Top Fuel tire is the Goodyear #D2904.  This info comes from Goodyear racing center Akron, Ohio.  JC

I'm wondering why they are next to each other in the frontrunner section.....

http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/pdf/Drag_010313.pdf (http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/pdf/Drag_010313.pdf)

http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/dragspecial.html (http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/dragspecial.html)

It looks like he jumped through some hoops for not only himself but for anyone else that wants to use that tire in the future so if I was a bike person I'd take advantage of what he has done.  It is a narrower tire than the 2904, so that is good  :-),

Sum

It is cool that he and Lee and the other tech folks worked with them to test the tire. The fact that JC was told "no" speaks volumes about the inconsistency and lack of commo in our systems. Nice that the data is out there for others now.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: JR529 on August 22, 2013, 11:12:52 PM
It is cool that he and Lee and the other tech folks worked with them to test the tire. The fact that JC was told "no" speaks volumes about the inconsistency and lack of commo in our systems. Nice that the data is out there for others now.

According to his earlier post, he wasn't told "No", he was told it wasn't allowed to exceed 200 MPH. He chose to accept that as a blanket "No" where another competitor decided to do the legwork to get it approved to higher speeds, using the procedure clearly outlined in the rulebook.

Both entrants were told the same thing. One took one path and another took a different one.

 


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: ol38y on August 23, 2013, 11:44:20 AM
Yep....nothing has changed in SCTA/BNI M/C Tech......it is just the luck of the draw.....it all depends who does the Tech. inspection and how he/she reads the rules, or does not read the rules......................................................

.........Oh, where is Jack Dolan......

Run the BUB.....Drew and his Tech people do a great job and follow the book.

With all due respect Bob I have to strongly disagree with you. In my experience at the Bub Meet, the tech is the worst I have ever seen. Besides the fact most of the inspectors have no clue about the class bike they are inspecting, the "good 'ol boy" atmosphere is rampant. I've seen the same bike set an A record as well as an M record. I saw the same bike set a PG record and a G record in the same year with the same engine. When the 5" seat back rule went into effect I saw one particular bike in impound that had a seat back height well above 5". For these and other reasons I will not return to the Bub Meet.  OK, sorry, rant over.

Back to topic. It seems to me one thing the OP missed was "drive tire". The bike in question did not use the tire as a drive tire.


Title: Re: Tech
Post by: salt27 on August 28, 2013, 12:32:45 AM
I would like to thank all the SCTA volunteers for making Speedweek possible.

They would be on the salt before us and after we had left.

I know we were tired from making our two or three runs a day, they had to be exhausted.

As for tech and impound, Dan, Doug, Matt, Don, Tom and fellow volunteers that I can't recall their names did an outstanding job.

Thank you, Don