Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: FoundSoul on March 11, 2013, 04:09:20 PM
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I have two questions concerning gussets-- 1) do I need the tube gusset described below and is that a good way to gusset this junction 2) do I have enough gusseting overall?
Trying to figure out the best way to gusset the shoulder bar to the main hoop here behind the drivers seat. The plate type gussets won't fit with the seat belts being wrapped around the shoulder bar, as at a minimum they would provide a cut point if the belts would fit at all on the one side (behind the left shoulder, right side of this pic).
I'm thinking a tube gusset on the top side of the shoulder bar, from where it's marked 'neck' which will be in between the belts, up diagonally to the right into the main hoop where it ties into the body. Trying to ensure that will work now with the SCTA/ECTA officials.
Something like this:
(http://www.diyautotune.com/images/cars/project_cars/240sx/14/diy_240sx_14_23_gussetpic.jpg)
(http://www.diyautotune.com/images/cars/project_cars/240sx/14/diy_240sx_14_62_gussetpic.jpg)
Any where is says 'Gusset' without a question mark is pointing out an existing 1/8" plate gusset as per the rulebook. The white diagonal bar (marked Gusset??? in one pic) is where I'm considering putting a tube gusset, same size tube as the cage probably which is 1.75" diameter .120" wall DOM tubing.
Need to determine for sure that meets the rules, and that I've got adequate gusseting throughout. If I put that tube gusset there, along with the other gusseting that's in place, do I have enough gusseting in the entire cage?
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the point of a gusset is to strengthen a joint or "tube network" through triangulation. the tube network in question is you "main hoop". isn't your main hoop already triangulated with the diagonal that goes from the top of the main hoop down to the "shoulder bar" (the bar that runs behind the seat where your shoulder belts would mount) and the diagonal rear support bar that goes from the top of the main hoop down to the back of the car? both those bars are already effectively doing what your proposed gusset would do plus they're doing it better because they support the main hoop higher up than you gusset would.
don't get me wrong... you can add in as many gussets as you want but look at what the object of the rule is and try to satisfy that need versus just trying to meet the letter of the rule.
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Thanks Nathan-- that's commonly my struggle- if I can build to the 'object' of the rule, which is a safe car, that's very helpful. I'm always afraid I'm going to spend a ton of money to get out there though and then find I missed a small 'letter of the law' rule that could keep me from racing. I don't have anything but this rulebook, so when it says I need a gusset, I'm thinking I better put one there whether the cage technically 'needs' it or not.
We've tried hard to overbuild this cage, and I can post more pics if you'd like-- I think we've succeeded in doing that. It's 1.75" diameter .120" wall tubing and a LOT of it, with a partial funny car style 'cage within a cage' around me. I'm not a small guy, and it is a small car, and I'm also using a full containment seat, so it doesn't have a full funny car style cage around me, but it's definitely built tough.
My goal was to have it overthought-out and overbuilt to the point that it hopefully makes tech a breeze ;).
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Another thing that helps the first time LSR racer is to go to the SCTA website and down load the tech inspection form. This is what the inspectors will be using to check your vehicle. The rule book is important but the inspection sheet will show you how the process will go down through the inspection line.
And remember...
Have Fun!
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Couldn't wait for the tech guys I pointed you to Jerry?
Just remember that this webpage is not official when it comes to tech specific questions.
DW
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This was posted before (or about the same time) I sent you that first email Dan... thanks for your help via email. My hope was once I have the answers I can update this thread for others to benefit from. Thanks for your help!
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OK
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I don't know anything about the rules but those are the nicest welds I've seen in a long time. That is art. :cheers:
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Thanks Nathan-- that's commonly my struggle- if I can build to the 'object' of the rule, which is a safe car, that's very helpful. I'm always afraid I'm going to spend a ton of money to get out there though and then find I missed a small 'letter of the law' rule that could keep me from racing. I don't have anything but this rulebook, so when it says I need a gusset, I'm thinking I better put one there whether the cage technically 'needs' it or not.
We've tried hard to overbuild this cage, and I can post more pics if you'd like-- I think we've succeeded in doing that. It's 1.75" diameter .120" wall tubing and a LOT of it, with a partial funny car style 'cage within a cage' around me. I'm not a small guy, and it is a small car, and I'm also using a full containment seat, so it doesn't have a full funny car style cage around me, but it's definitely built tough.
My goal was to have it overthought-out and overbuilt to the point that it hopefully makes tech a breeze ;).
your cage looks over built so far. what kind of car is it, what motor and fuel do you plan on running and how fast do you plan on going? one concern i have is that your main hoop seems quite a bit away from the inside of the body shell. i mention this because your body must be completely inside the outer plane of the cage so having it be many inches away from the inside of the body shell may mean that you're giving up inches of your own room. you say you're not small guy. does that mean you're tall or 'wide' or both? either way, make sure that when you're seated and fully equipped with a fire suit, helmet and hans that no part of you sticks out beyond the cage. no arm or shoulder sticking out over that diagonal door bar.
while this site may not be 'official', i am an official inspector and i am one of the new car inspectors so there's a good chance that we'll meet up in tech at some point. my suggestion is that i shouldn't be the first set of eyes to have ever seen your cage when you show up on the salt. definitely at least contact kiwi steve as he's the head tech and maybe even lee kennedy as he's the tech chair. keep in mind though that contact with either of them does not in any way 'pre-approve' your cage. i had a gent come through tech one time and as i started checking out his cage he tells me oh i'm good to go, i've been emailing pictures to kiwi steve. pictures won't ever replace having a car in front of you to inspect with your own two eyes so while pictures and communication are good, you're still subject to a full inspection once getting on the salt but you'll fair much better if the head dudes have at least seen your cage design and been given the opportunity to suggest changes if necessary.
think about your belt placement while you're at this stage of the cage build. remember that for many years before these hans devices became a requirement that the shoulder belt came up and over the shoulder and mounted at a point below the top of the shoulder. most hans systems require that the shoulder belts now be mounted more behind the shoulders at nearly the same height as the top of the shoulders and not down below the shoulders like was required years ago. make sure your lap belts are mounted such that the hardware is pulled in tension and not in shear and at the correct angle. make sure your belts have an unobstructed 'pull' over your body and that the seat doesn't get in the way. the belts must pull on your body and not on the seat or the openings in the seat to allow the belts to pass through. i'd highly suggest a 7 point belt system or even a 9 point belt system which are my new fav btw. don't forget to place all your controls (ignition, fire ext, chute, etc) in a centralized location that's near the steering wheel so you can keep your limb restraints short. don't put your chute release hanging from the top of the cage out of your view so you have to hunt for it with your arm fully extended out to the other side of the car to find it. also don't bury it next to your seat where you can't see it or feel for it with your -20 gloves on. put it where you can see it and get to it easily.
ugh sorry for the rambling. it's late and i can't sleep so pardon any misspellings or general bad grammar. hope this helps.
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Jerry,
Nathan is OK for an answer on this subject. As he mentioned he will be one of the new car tech guys with plenty of experience.
DW
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Thanks Nathan, and DW, and Kiwi Steve, who have all helped me answer this question. I'll post Steve's response in a moment...
But while we're on the pre-inspection topic-- Nathan-- is there anyone you know of in the Southeast US you could recommend? Have trailer, will travel... I'm in the Atlanta, GA area.
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As Dan mentioned I started an email thread about the same time I started this post as I know in the past the forums here aren't considered authoritative and direct contact is preferred for such questions. I often post here in case it's a well known issue others have dealt with and can help me answer quickly, but it seems I tend to ask questions that don't have easy answers sometimes...
Several were on the email thread- Dan asked 'Kiwi' Steve to reply, and here's what he shared:
Jerry and all, the rules say the gussets (at minimum) need to be at the intersections of any tube attached to the shoulder rail, this refers to a lakester or roadster type construction, you will need to have gussets in the roof intersection points at minimum, any more you add will be exceeding our minimum standards, which we like.
As for the belts, make sure you follow the manufacturers instructions for the belts as well as the head and neck restraint, they have strict angles they need to work, and use the scta diagrams as well, you must use either a 5point or 7 point belt system to comply with our rules. There are a few 6 point (double crotch strap) belts that will work also. I think what Dan was saying is that sometimes its hard to get the correct angles with wrap around belts, I can't emphasize enough how important it is to pay attention to the directions of the manufacturers.
Stay in touch, see you on the salt.
Steve.
So I think I'm pretty clear here, I'm checking with my fab guy, as I'm not 100% sure if I understand that.
I just sent Steve and email asking "would the 'roof intersection points' mean all of the points that attach any roof bars (in the horizontal plane above the driver) to the main hoop? I know he (fab guy) has gussets on the shoulder bars and door bars as seen in the pics above, but I don't think he does on the roof bars if I'm interpreting that correctly."
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Joe Timney is in Delaware, which isn't right next door, but is plenty closer than going to Californica. For that matter, while Joe is an SCTA inspector (sorta - might not be current right now) -- Keith Turk is in Enterprise, Alabama, and isn't an inspector for SCTA -- but sure is for ECTA (as is Joe, the two of them being the two male head honchos for the ECTA). They might not be able to give you absolute 100% guarantees that your stuff will pass SCTA -- but they can sure get you moving in the right direction so you don't get surprised when you do go out west. Notice, by the way, that I mentioned that they're boys. The REAL honchos are Tonya Turk and Donna Timney. And I assure you -- Joe and Keith know it well :-D :-D.
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I don't know anything about the rules but those are the nicest welds I've seen in a long time. That is art. :cheers:
Chad at Fat Cat Fabrication (http://fatcatfabrication.com/) is a welding stud. Send him lots of work, just wait until he's done with my car first ;).
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I don't know anything about the rules but those are the nicest welds I've seen in a long time. That is art. :cheers:
Chad at Fat Cat Fabrication (http://fatcatfabrication.com/) is a welding stud. Send him lots of work, just wait until he's done with my car first ;).
Thanks-- Keith and I had discussed it but I know he's busy and we haven't been able to connect yet. I'll check with him again and see if I can tug my car down there, that's likely the closest bet.
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Thanks for jumping thru the hoops Jerry.
Good job,
DW
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Thank you DW!
Nathan, forgot to respond this earlier:
your cage looks over built so far. what kind of car is it, what motor and fuel do you plan on running and how fast do you plan on going? one concern i have is that your main hoop seems quite a bit away from the inside of the body shell. i mention this because your body must be completely inside the outer plane of the cage so having it be many inches away from the inside of the body shell may mean that you're giving up inches of your own room. you say you're not small guy. does that mean you're tall or 'wide' or both? either way, make sure that when you're seated and fully equipped with a fire suit, helmet and hans that no part of you sticks out beyond the cage. no arm or shoulder sticking out over that diagonal door bar.
Car is a 1991 Nissan 240sx. Current F/GC record is 167mph, and current F/BGC record is 207mph. After flirting with building an N/A engine and going for the F/GC first I changed course and I'm going boosted, on gasoline, in F/BGC.
Motor is a Toyota Inline 6 - 2JZGTE
Me-- I'm semi-athletic built, sometimes more semi than athletic. 6' 1" and 230lbs, a little gut but not 'wide'.
I'll go sit in the car again tomorrow and ensure we don't have a problem here. It is a full containment seat though and the seat is inside the outer plane of the cage completely, I'm nearly 100% sure, but will verify tomorrow.
Here look, there I am now! (actually that was a few years ago, added 10 or 15lbs since then maybe to get to that 230....)
(http://www.diyautotune.com/jwplayer_viral/images/racing/bonneville_speedweek_2007/DSC_0255.jpg)
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Jerry, if Nathan is flat out doing Rookie Orientation it is likely Adam Rogers and perhaps even myself might be looking at your car when you get to Speed Week....That being said, the only place that I can see in your pictures that might need an additional gusset is at the junction of the drivers side halo bar and the main hoop. I would run it forward on the halo and up the corner of the main hoop. Bear in mind also that you are doing the right thing by getting Steve`s input on all your work here. We really would like you to be able to fly through Tech and run your car........We all are here to help, but Steve is the one to make those Emails count. Make sure you put all correspondence in your log book, too....
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Thanks Paul -- I think that confirms I understood Steve properly.
Log book... can I get one of those before the event? Or should I just hang onto this correspondence and put it in the log book when I get one at the event?
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Thanks Paul -- I think that confirms I understood Steve properly.
Log book... can I get one of those before the event? Or should I just hang onto this correspondence and put it in the log book when I get one at the event?
I picked mine up last year since I was gettting info piling up and I am still building my car.
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Jerry,
Contact JoAnn in the office for a log book. Many people pick theirs up while waiting in the tech lines. You will need photos of the car before modifications. You may be beyond the OEM configuration by now so photos of a like model will do.
DW
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And when you've got your brand new logbook -- please fill out the inside first page before you get into the tech line. That first page has stuff that's permanent for the vehicle -- things like model and year (of the original donor car), VIN, and so on. It's there to (sorta) identify that the car and the logbook go together (that you're not trying to slip someone else's book through 'cause, for maybe instance, you've been tagged with infractions that need to be addressed before the next race event - and you didn't do 'em). The logbook will come complete with a numbered chassis sticker to place on a permanent item in the car (something that's not possible to change, like you might an engine, for instance). Try a spot on the cage, maybe. The inspectors will want to see that sticker and compare it to the number that's on your logbook - another way that they identify the vehicle as belonging to the book.
Back to my original rant: Way too any times I've been inspecting and had someone arrive without page being filled out. Then it's either way for him/her to fill it out, making everyone wait -- or kick her/him out of line to go fill in the paperwork and then return for insp. Do it ahead of time and the inspectors will be happy(er).
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Will do guys, thanks! I think happy tech inspectors sounds like a good thing.... :cheers:
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Car is a 1991 Nissan 240sx. Current F/GC record is 167mph, and current F/BGC record is 207mph. After flirting with building an N/A engine and going for the F/GC first I changed course and I'm going boosted, on gasoline, in F/BGC.
Motor is a Toyota Inline 6 - 2JZGTE
Yeah, S13's are small. We have one here at the shop that I've been spending a lot of time with and yeah, it's not a big car. S13 + 2JZ sounds like an awesome combo. I witnessed first hand the jap JUN Supra (which was a street car) showing up in '99 or '00 and going 240mph. Assuming you're going to go nuts with this 2JZ, you're basically building a potential 250mph car. Going overboard on the cage is definitely a good idea.
Me-- I'm semi-athletic built, sometimes more semi than athletic. 6' 1" and 230lbs, a little gut but not 'wide'.
I'll go sit in the car again tomorrow and ensure we don't have a problem here. It is a full containment seat though and the seat is inside the outer plane of the cage completely, I'm nearly 100% sure, but will verify tomorrow.
Make sure the top of your helmet isn't above the top of the cage and make sure you left arm/shoulder aren't outside the plane of the cage. One thing that a lot of folks miss is the requirement to have the door net release mounted inside the outer plane of the cage.
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I just got back from the fab shop. We installed the seat and I climbed in. My shoulder is completely inside the inside plane of the cage, much less the outside. BUT, part of the supporting structure of the seat (Kirkey full containment) around the shoulders goes a bit beyond the outer plane (is that a problem). The inside of the seat is inside or at the inner plane, but the outside of the square tube that's wrapped around the shoulders on that seat is outside the outer plane. If the rule is 'my SHOULDERS must be inside the outer plane' then I should be fine. That said, we're adding another bar to move that 'outer plane' further out, so that the outer edge of the seat is inside the outer plane too. It'll run horizontally from the vertical bar to the left of my head, with a kink it in going back around to the main hoop. As close as it can be run to the door. We both really liked the addition...
Additionally, we're going a bit gusset crazy at this point. It's not hard to add them now, to better to have more than is needed than to come up short in any way.
Thanks for the comment on the window net, that was actually my 'homework' for today. I've got to go dig that section up in the rulebook as we'll be adding that soon, and the reminder to keep the release inside the outer plane is helpful!
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See, therein lies the issue of the rulebook vrs. real life.
If you are not completely contained we may have an problem.
Nathan?
DW
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Particularly with the addition of the bar at eye level to the left of my head, I'll be completely, 100%, inside the outside plane of the cage. I already was, just a piece of the (super bulky) seat was not. It will be now.
If there was a problem-- I suppose I could use a different seat (not a full containment seat) that fit easier in the drivers compartment, but I was trying to maximize safety by stuffing the full containment seat with a funny car style 'cage within a cage' around it in the drivers bay.
I don't think we'll have a problem though as the latest changes appear as though they should keep even the extreme edge of this bulky seat inside that outer plane of the cage. I'm going to swing by today again, this time with my Helmet and neck restraint (Hybrid Pro) to do a little more fitment testing.
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Nathan?
Reading what Jerry first described with the seat being outside the cage sounds bad. His proposed fix for this sounds good. Without seeing it it's hard to say what's really good or bad. They say pictures are worth a thousand words or in other words pics would be helpful.
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I was up there again today and we further discussed our gameplan. We'll have all of that big bulky seat inside the outer plane of the cage.
I'll take pics next week and post up.
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Look forward to seeing pics, Jerry. Looking really good thus far.... :cheers:
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If a picture is worth 1000 words I figured that wasn't enough, so here's a video :-D
http://youtu.be/9CHlBQuGWL0
We've got the seat moved over, and added a bar on the outside to ensure 100% of it is inside the outside plane of the cage. We added a matching bar on the other side of my head to meet another requirement (extending the seat/structure around the seat to beyond the front of the helmet to contain my melon on the right side).
We also added three gussets, the tube gusset behind the seat connecting the shoulder bar to the main hoop, and two more plate gussets in the 'roof to main hoop' junctions as Steve suggested.
Let me know what you think!
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Jerry, I congratulate you and your fab guy on a job very well done. The only things left to do that I can see are the door net and mounts, and ensure that your padding in the helmet area extends out to the front of the helmet. I really like the curved bar and extension you made for the right side in this area. I also presume you have underseat bars, and crotch belt mounting sorted out. Looking forward to seeing this one. Hope you won`t be too offended if I poke my head in if you are in Impound (I was the guy crawling over the #97 car in Impound last Speed Week.....) :-D
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Love it! Please show how you mount the window net. Phil
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Awesome video! I only have one question, is the existing sunroof opening going to be removable? If so you might have to put an additional window net or cage structure there as well. I have seen this on other cars over the years at El Mirage and on the salt. Peter.
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Jerry, I congratulate you and your fab guy on a job very well done. The only things left to do that I can see are the door net and mounts, and ensure that your padding in the helmet area extends out to the front of the helmet. I really like the curved bar and extension you made for the right side in this area. I also presume you have underseat bars, and crotch belt mounting sorted out. Looking forward to seeing this one. Hope you won`t be too offended if I poke my head in if you are in Impound (I was the guy crawling over the #97 car in Impound last Speed Week.....) :-D
Love it! Please show how you mount the window net. Phil
Thanks Paul and SaltRacer1! We've ordered a triangular M&R door net that looks like it will fit nicely and fill most all of that hole. I'll post pics when it's in.
Awesome video! I only have one question, is the existing sunroof opening going to be removable? If so you might have to put an additional window net or cage structure there as well. I have seen this on other cars over the years at El Mirage and on the salt. Peter.
Yes the lexan will be held in by no less than 14 DZUS fasteners, so it's not easily opened, but technically can be opened. A steel structure has been welded in place to support the DZUS's and to hold the Lexan level with the roof. I hadn't considered needing a net up there, but it's worth a thought. If a net is needed, I'd probably make it bolt in and not easily removable as it's not an exit path.
Kiwi Steve-- your thoughts on if that is needed please?
Here are some pictures:
(http://www.diyautotune.com/images/cars/project_cars/240sx/14/diy_240sx_14_13.jpg)
(http://www.diyautotune.com/images/cars/project_cars/240sx/14/diy_240sx_14_32.jpg)
There are a BUNCH more pics here: http://www.diyautotune.com/cars/project/diyautotune_s13_240sx.htm
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If a picture is worth 1000 words I figured that wasn't enough, so here's a video :-D
http://youtu.be/9CHlBQuGWL0
Just watched your vid... very helpful. What's the big tube in the drivers compartment that runs down the right side of the trans tunnel?
Also, I think you might be confusing 'Kiwi Paul' (tech inspector who's been posting in this thread) with 'Kiwi Steve' (SCTA's head tech that you contacted via email). I know, too many damn Kiwi's to keep track of with their funny soundin' accents. :-D :wink:
You'll have to contact Kiwi Steve about needing something for the sunroof. I personally don't see why you'd need it nor have I personally seen any cars that had netting or additional structure but it's not my call as to whether or not you need it. I mean obviously you've got bars that are over your head which are designed to support the structure of the car vertically and protect you but needing something specifically for the absence of a sunroof I'm not sure of.
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Nascar roof flaps would fit very well.
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If a picture is worth 1000 words I figured that wasn't enough, so here's a video :-D
http://youtu.be/9CHlBQuGWL0
Just watched your vid... very helpful. What's the big tube in the drivers compartment that runs down the right side of the trans tunnel?
Also, I think you might be confusing 'Kiwi Paul' (tech inspector who's been posting in this thread) with 'Kiwi Steve' (SCTA's head tech that you contacted via email). I know, too many Dodge Kiwi's to keep track of with their funny soundin' accents. :-D :wink:
You'll have to contact Kiwi Steve about needing something for the sunroof. I personally don't see why you'd need it nor have I personally seen any cars that had netting or additional structure but it's not my call as to whether or not you need it. I mean obviously you've got bars that are over your head which are designed to support the structure of the car vertically and protect you but needing something specifically for the absence of a sunroof I'm not sure of.
Thanks Nathan-- I'll give Steve a call, was just leaving an opening for him or another to chime in here on the net but I'm glad to call, was tied up today with a tv shoot (no I'm not anybody special, it's a paid sponsorship of a show) or I probably would have done so today.
That huge 'stovepipe' looking tube through the passenger floorboard may be somewhat of a unique feature. Bottom line I wanted to get the exhaust out of the back of the car for aero reasons, yet there was not going to be any way to do that unless I went through the passenger compartment-- so that's a 5" 'exhaust conduit' that I'll pass the actual exhaust pipe through. It exits right in front of the rear axle, and it's a short run front there to get out the back. I hadn't seen it done before but surely someone has done something similar. As they say there's nothing new under the sun....
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Really, Nathan? Funny Sounding?........Perhaps I should attend Rookie (Speech...) Orientation... :-D :-D
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any updates on the window net? Phil
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M&R was out of their black webbing and couldn't make the net in black, so they're making me one in purple now, but that delayed the whole process....
Thankfully it's only $37 for the net, just in case I hate the purple I can get another in black later ;).
That net should be here any day now....
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any updates on the window net? Phil
Window net is in, here's a quick video showing how it's mounted and how it functions....
http://youtu.be/5zTwqExXt_I
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Excellent! thanks Phil
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Love looking at all your work....Hopefully you won't get an inspector after your first few inspections with Steve or Nathan who will want at least 200' more tubing and 30 more gussets. :-o
Back in the day when gussest were first added they all had to be flat triangles with tubular ones not used or even recommended; same with the side helmet restraints, only flat stock was to be used inside the plane of the cage. With all the "new" protection we have for the helmets from the seat manufacturers I'm glad fitted round tubing is allowed.....Looks Good
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Thanks - we're trying to build it such that it shows pretty clear that a lot of thought and effort went into safety, and the tech guys we have had contact with have been very helpful. I plan to drag it to someone to pre-tech before too long as well to help find any major callouts, just gotta bolt it together so I have a semi-complete car to show them....