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Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: hotrodderhaag on January 15, 2013, 09:20:10 PM



Title: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: hotrodderhaag on January 15, 2013, 09:20:10 PM
I found an original aluminum belly tank that can be bought at a reasonable price. .. It is 23" diameter . Is that too small? I was gonna run a ford flathead v8. Please let me know your thoughts and opinions


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Stainless1 on January 15, 2013, 10:06:05 PM
Start by planning a layout.... do you have a Flathead to work with?  23 is fairly small, so my opinion is it is probably perfect... how long?  Don't forget you can make it an oval if you need width.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Jack Gifford on January 16, 2013, 01:03:49 AM
... Don't forget you can make it an oval if you need width...
Almost anything can be done with the body for a special-construction category vehicle; just sayin'.
I suggest you study photos of old-time small-tank lakesters, especially those that had flatheads- either sixty-horse or "full size" V8 engines.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: DND on January 16, 2013, 05:07:51 AM
It also depends on how you want to set in the tank, all inside like Markley did or have your head out in the wind or maybe a canopy on top?

Don


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: hotrodderhaag on January 16, 2013, 06:38:41 AM
guys,
i have a 1937 21 stud for flathead v-8, trans, and rear end all running ready to go, compleley rebuilt....  id rather have my head out of it with a canopy i belive. the dimenssions of the tank i found are 23"dia x 14.5 feet long... its aluminum.   im buying the tank just cause its a good deal. and i would like to use it, but i almos thought about a fibergalss P38..... this will be my first belly tank build ever so i want it to go somewhat smooth. i know im squeezing ten lbs of Subaru in a five pound bag, but it gonna happen
 


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Dr Goggles on January 16, 2013, 07:42:33 AM
Use the one you've found as a cowl..buy a 38 in glass, then you've got a cool lookin tank...


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: hotrodderhaag on January 16, 2013, 08:26:27 AM
anyone have some good belly tank pictures> p38 style. i googled some.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: dw230 on January 16, 2013, 11:20:45 AM
Take a look at the American Hot Rod Foundation site, www.ahrf.com, they have a photo library beyond compare. Contact Jim Miller on that site, he can help locate hat you are looking for.

DW


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Jack Gifford on January 17, 2013, 01:09:13 AM
My lakester (pictured in my avatar) uses a fiberglas P-38 replica tank made by ClassGlass in Maryland. It's 36" diameter and 150-some inches long.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 17, 2013, 01:18:12 AM
24 inches is plenty small.  I am not a real big guy at 5'-11 inches and my shoulders are wider than 22 inches with my leathers on.  That's less than an inch clearance on each side at the middle of the tank..   No way I could fit.  You will need some room to fidget. 


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: DND on January 17, 2013, 05:22:19 AM
Plus the frame - roll hoops -padding etc, you would have to be a Tenny-Bopper to even get in the thing !!


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: hotrodderhaag on January 17, 2013, 06:42:17 AM
im affraid you guys are correct. i think im gonna go ahead and build one with the p38 tank out of glass........... so that being said. where is the best place to get a  QUALITY fibergalss tank.?


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Captthundarr on January 17, 2013, 08:15:33 AM
Try this fellow, he might be able to help. http://p38-droptank.com/P38-Drop_Tank.html

Elmo Rodge is on the forum.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: dw230 on January 17, 2013, 11:36:25 AM
Elmo's tanks are off the forms developed by the late Jack Kelly. Jack's tank, NOT tanker  :x, is the beautiful, yellow #64. The car has been in storage since Jack's passing. There are plans to move it to White Goose Bar World Headquarters for a refurbishing by the craftsmen on that team.

There may be beer involved.

DW


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: hotrodderhaag on January 17, 2013, 12:54:41 PM
youll never hear me say TANKER... not intentionally anyways.


well i did some research.. found this company.
http://www.gothamcruisers.com/index.htm

they make a p38 tank with head rest for $1100.
and its nice looking,

they are using this companies tank in the build below:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=763913

and so far they are reslly happy with it from what im told.... other companys are at 1250 or higher for a glass p38 tank... and the gotham cruisers are about 4 hours from me, so i think i may order one from them and maybe take a tour of the place. from what i see and how they talk, they are  good at what they do.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Stainless1 on January 17, 2013, 01:32:14 PM
Dan, if beer is not involved is it really racing?  I think not  :cheers:

Hrh,
The bigger the vehicle you build the slower it will go with the same motor.... that should not be shocking news... just about all the tanks will start with the same aero Cd, the difference will be frontal area.  How much you hang outside and how you do it is the rest of the story.

Disclaimer... The Bockscar is not a tank, it is a lakester
The drivers compartment in the Bockscar is 19 1/4 wide X 14 tall, although the driver must go under a bar that is 12 1/2  above  the floor at the front of the steering wheel.  Yes it is tight,  but if you want a lot of room, race a 60s Lincoln  :-D it is not like you are driving cross country, you will be in there about 15 minutes at a time.  Yes, I am 6'3 and 215, not a small guy.  If you are Pork Pie's size there is almost too much room in it, had a hard time getting his belts right, we did, but it was not easy.  

will a flathead fit?  don't know, the Kieth Black was a little large for ours


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Freud on January 17, 2013, 01:37:15 PM
How much overdrive on the blower?

FREUD


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Stan Back on January 17, 2013, 02:24:57 PM
One of the few applications that turned the blower by suction.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Captthundarr on January 17, 2013, 02:53:29 PM
I didn't say tanker.... :?


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Stainless1 on January 17, 2013, 05:23:51 PM
How much overdrive on the blower?

FREUD
One of the few applications that turned the blower by suction.

Sorry guys, while we were checking motor fit we sent the pictures to the special construction chair for his thought.... OH HELL NO... was the first reaction... so we went back to the 1.5 liter.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Captthundarr on January 17, 2013, 06:11:47 PM
Some folks just don't know what fun is. :-D


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on January 17, 2013, 06:27:55 PM
People have asked us if we used photo shop for that image. It was faster just to set the motor from the dragster in it :cheers:


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: hotrodderhaag on January 18, 2013, 09:20:22 AM
ordered my tank, wont be ready till end of feb but its def worth the wait.. trying to get a good set of flat pattern drawings of the tank so i can draw and exact chassis.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Elmo Rodge on January 18, 2013, 12:18:51 PM
Wait until you get the Tank before you draw anything "final".  :wink: Remember, everything "shrinks" in all directions as you go to the ends of the shape. Chances of getting caught off guard are pretty good. Good luck with your build.  :cheers: Wayno


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: hotrodderhaag on January 18, 2013, 01:38:03 PM
Wait until you get the Tank before you draw anything "final".  :wink: Remember, everything "shrinks" in all directions as you go to the ends of the shape. Chances of getting caught off guard are pretty good. Good luck with your build.  :cheers: Wayno


thanks elmo,
ill keep that in mind. appreciate all the help......... would love to hear any other tips and tricks all you experienced guys have run into.... this is all new to me.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: hotrodderhaag on November 20, 2014, 09:13:14 AM
well fellas,
its been a long time since i posted... I finally purchased a tank. I bought a hellcat f6f tank. A friend of mine had 2 of them hanging in the upstairs of his garage... He was real hesitant to part with one, but after a couple weeks of bugging him. I bought it home... I did OK when purchasing it. ive seen cheaper and ive seen way more expensive. The best part is, now its in MY garage.. Ive purchased a healthy 8BA and a v8 banjo rear. Model a beam front axle and some 37 ford spindles. This is going to be a vintage style tank with the necessary safety feature. I have spoke to mike @ mike speed shop in NC, and im discussing a certified chassis with him. I need to order a rule book from scta before i go any further. But what i have is a start...
im unsure how to make my images smaller, or id show you all what i purchased! and some progress.  It will be on the back burner for a while as i have a few hot rods in front of it that need done. but that will hardly keep me from turning a wrench on it here and there.

ill start a genuine build thread also.





Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: hotrodderhaag on November 20, 2014, 09:26:29 AM
#2


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: hotrodderhaag on November 20, 2014, 09:26:53 AM
#3


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Stan Back on November 20, 2014, 12:22:35 PM
Don't do a thing without a Rule Book!

SCTA does not require a "certified chassis", whatever that is.  And if you build a chassis that passes SCTA standards, it will undoubtedly be good at any other venue.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Dynoroom on November 20, 2014, 12:49:22 PM
Listen to Stan. Get the rule book. There is no need for a "certified" chassis unlike NHRA.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: bearingburner on November 20, 2014, 03:10:07 PM
We have found it helpful to mock up a frame out of 2X2 wood or perhaps PVC tubing before getting any steel bent or welded.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Sumner on November 20, 2014, 03:21:22 PM
We have found it helpful to mock up a frame out of 2X2 wood or perhaps PVC tubing before getting any steel bent or welded.

.....but...........

(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/roll%20cage-29.jpg)

(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/roll%20cage-30.jpg)
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/construction%20page-18.html (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/construction%20page-18.html)


... be ready for some ribbing  :-D,

Sumner


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Stan Back on November 20, 2014, 04:40:33 PM
. . . be ready for some siding?


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: ronnieroadster on November 20, 2014, 04:43:19 PM
Hi Hotrodderhaag
 We built our Lakester using the same drop tank you have.  Check out our build diary attached below while it hasnt been updated in a long time as our lakester has continued to change over the years with ever increasing speeds the frame design and how the suspension was built should be of value in your build.  
 Like Stan posted you dont need any certified chassis. When I began my project I talked to guys with experiance in drop tank Lakesters. One fellow who gave me a lot of guidance is no longer with us Jack Kelley he told me a lot of important stuff but one item was most important. When building your frame make it as wide as possible make it hug the drop tank body. You will find the space inside your tank will fill up fast. If you would like any guidance I would be happy to help send me a PM.    :cheers:
 Ronnieroadster
 

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4354.0.html


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Dr Goggles on November 20, 2014, 05:19:22 PM
 A fabric shop will have a dumpster full of cardboard tube from their rolls of fabric. Much more practical , and cheap, if you are going to spend the timer building something life size it might as well be tube that's close to the size of what you will be using.

We built a frame out of cheap 1 inch steel tube that we could sit in, it was more useful.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: 55chevr on November 20, 2014, 05:36:14 PM
I used  EMT for the frame mock up patterns ... made it a lot easier bending tubing to match patterns.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Elmo Rodge on November 20, 2014, 06:05:04 PM
I used PVC tubing for the mock-up on my Tank. I also used it for the first try at the "fish mouth" cuts before I committed to steel. It's gobs easier to cut and gives you a good starting place when you cut the real stuff.  :wink: Wayno


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Stan Back on November 20, 2014, 06:11:48 PM
. . . and lots of us are reminded again what a great guy Jack Kelley was.  I guess we should feel lucky that we knew him.  Still a sad story. 


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 20, 2014, 08:21:06 PM
Building a round chassis to conform to the inside of the tank is the hard way to go. None of the crap you're gunna stuff in there is that shape so build to the components then bracket out to the tank, & that includes the driver. Get the driver down in the thing so you don't end up with an "oil rig" parked on top with a driver that looks like he's sitting at the kitchen table & you just managed to double the frontal area of what was once a slick piece.
  Sid.


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: John Burk on November 20, 2014, 11:15:35 PM
Good advice Sid . Nothing wrong with driving with your knees bent and spread like with a slingshot dragster .


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Kiwi Paul on November 21, 2014, 01:21:06 AM
Stan--You nailed it. Jack was great people....


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 21, 2014, 03:31:59 PM
I have attached a pic of Steve Nelson's tank to show that you can get every thing in a 26 inch dia. Steve did add 12 inches to the length but it is the V4 fuel lakester record holder at 201+. Steve's car is quite roomie as he is 6 ft + and fits with no problem. I have actually been in it at his shop and I carry about an extra 30-40 lbs on Steve and it wasn't a bad fit. His tank is from an Albatross sea plane.

Rex


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Dr Goggles on November 23, 2014, 03:32:06 AM
Building a round chassis to conform to the inside of the tank is the hard way to go. None of the crap you're gunna stuff in there is that shape so build to the components then bracket out to the tank, & that includes the driver. Get the driver down in the thing so you don't end up with an "oil rig" parked on top with a driver that looks like he's sitting at the kitchen table & you just managed to double the frontal area of what was once a slick piece.
  Sid.

Mixed feelings about the first bit of that, agree with the second part entirely, too many people sit straight up and down like they're planning on being in there for six hours at a time....... getting hoops rolled and building a space frame gives you a lot of rigidity, not much volume and gives you flexibility to change a rail chassis doesn't give you that.

Good advice Sid . Nothing wrong with driving with your knees bent and spread like with a slingshot dragster .

Works for us.....


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: John Burk on November 23, 2014, 11:28:24 AM
Blisters to cover projecting parts are relatively easy to make . This is one I made to cover my hubs :

http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/Bvile-pics/bs%20041206%20rh%20blister%20ex.jpg

Saw and bolt together2 x 4s the shape of the outside of body with the hole you need . C clamp 1/16" 1100 aluminum and hammer with a round nose plastic hammer . Rivet a backup plate and fasten the blister . I dzused my hub blisters so I can check tire pressure without removing the body . A 26" tank with a couple of blisters has less drag than a 30" tank .



Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 23, 2014, 12:58:44 PM
John, How about a few more pics of your liner? Looks like you are making good progress.

Rex


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: John Burk on November 23, 2014, 02:20:19 PM
No recent photo . Old ones are at :
 
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motorsportsinnovations.com%2FBvile-pics%2Fbonneville.htm&ei=gixyVMLvGtPksASovYCACg&usg=AFQjCNHaLihrMPnJzYzPtcp1T3ZueYW0OQ&bvm=bv.80185997,d.eXY

Progress is slow and steady . One slow old fabricator doing most of the work . Every turn some new interesting riddle to solve . One recent idea to work out is something to eliminate the ground effect suction under the nose . My thought is a 36" 66-021 plan view perimeter skirt under the middle of the nose with an opening in front to create just enough pressure to offset the low pressure there . The question is what size should the skirt be and how big the opening in front and should it be aluminum or rubber .


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 23, 2014, 07:35:29 PM
John, Looks great but you had better step on it as Charles Nearberg has the record pushed up to around 355 now. Man you have done a lot of work, great engineering.

Rex


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: DND on November 23, 2014, 10:50:54 PM
Take a look at Andy Welker's tank build log, as he did a great job and he used shelf brackets and steel hose clamps to hold all the parts together and see if it all fit before even tacking or welding

Plus check out his fab skills as all the brackets are spot on the money

He built a first class race car with a Hilborn flathead for power

G Don


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: hotrodderhaag on November 24, 2014, 08:27:49 AM
gents,
when i say cert chassis, i mean he is doing  it the way NHRA would. . not saying it has to be certified. He is doing all DOM tubing and we decided to go with the style of andys tank an d use bent channel for the chassis, with round tubing for the cage and such.

mike is just an excellent tig welder and has a nice frame jig, so he will be helping me get it built..my role book is coming. im not touching anything until it arrives and i spend a few days getting to know all this land speed information ,
remember guys, this is all new to me!   :lol:


Title: Re: Belly tank diameter question
Post by: Jack Gifford on November 25, 2014, 01:11:46 AM
... and i spend a few days getting to know all this land speed information ...
Speedreader? :-o