Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Eric_Noyes on May 12, 2006, 11:40:04 AM

Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on May 12, 2006, 11:40:04 AM
We?re still on the steep uphill part of the learning curve; we?ve had little time to look at the other participant?s toys. I would like to thank everybody that expressed encouragement at El Mirage last weekend.  If you would like to read more about our 50cc motorcycle streamliner go to:     http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3

Eric
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Dynoroom on May 12, 2006, 12:18:04 PM
Great job guys, Congratulations!
Enjoyed your web site too!
Title: Great JoB!!!
Post by: Rex Schimmer on May 12, 2006, 06:01:35 PM
Really enjoyed your web site and your little bike is so nice! Exceptional engineering and fabrication. Can't wait to see you at Bonneville, the 127 mark should be really possible.

One question, reading your web site regarding the actual runs it sounds like you are using the clutch to shift. I am sure that your little motor has a dog ring gear box, why do you use the clutch? Rode dirt bikes for years and only used the clutch to start and stop.

NEAT PIECE!!!!

Rex
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: terry russell on May 12, 2006, 08:30:34 PM
Very nice! be good to see more rides like it on the east coast.
much luck terry
Title: Yes!
Post by: Dr Goggles on May 12, 2006, 09:27:41 PM
.........beautiful piece of work guys 8)
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: 1212FBGS on May 13, 2006, 02:05:08 PM
ya guys aught ta here it run... that little 50 sounds crisp... it hurts your ears... definately sounds like a well tuned 2 stroke....its cool.
kr
Title: Size of the Piston
Post by: Eric_Noyes on May 17, 2006, 02:30:49 AM
It took about 90 seconds and a piston this size to accelerate 650 pounds to 100 mph.
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Sumner on May 17, 2006, 11:38:26 AM
Eric great car and what an accomplishment right out of the blocks.  I'll bet you do a lot more before it is over.  Hope to see you guys on the salt in August.

I do have one favor to ask.  I'm still on "dial-up" :cry: and it takes forever to get your pictures to download, so I've only seen a small portion.  Maybe you could save them in a smaller format (not screen size) for some of us less fortunate internet users :D .

Good luck with the streamliner,

Sum
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Larry Forstall on May 17, 2006, 01:59:53 PM
Absolutely stunning bike. Great website too. 100mph from 3 c.i. You guys certainly win the efficiency award. Would paint give less drag, or is the glass well waxed? Do you have ceramic wheel bearings? How about a double taco for the rider. It might not be a 300+ ride, but the challenge is at least as difficult. Good Luck.
Title: Great Start
Post by: High Gear on May 17, 2006, 03:06:04 PM
Will you guys make speed week? If so, I think the NSU records are in deep trouble. We will be going after the SBF-500 (500cc blown fuel Streamliner) record set by NSU also in 1956 with our Team Arrow streamliner.

Good luck to us all.

Gary
http://www.arrowracing.org
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on May 17, 2006, 05:12:50 PM
For 2006 we plan to attend the El Mirage events, the Speed Trials by BUB (AMA Records), and the World Finals, so this year, our only chance to break NSU?s record will be in October.
Title: CURIOUS ?
Post by: JackD on May 17, 2006, 07:01:19 PM
Quote from: Eric_Noyes
For 2006 we plan to attend the El Mirage events, the Speed Trials by BUB (AMA Records), and the World Finals, so this year, our only chance to break NSU?s record will be in October.


Can you tell us what classes you hope to enter in each of those meets ?
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on May 17, 2006, 08:25:48 PM
The streamliner was designed around two stroke singles up to 175cc, but with a few modifications anything is possible.  John and I only tasted salt for the first time at the BUB event last year, so we thought it?s best to start slow.  We will probably run a 50cc motor for the rest of this year.  We built the sidecar to get some seat time while we develop new landing gear for the streamlined motorcycle configuration.  At the next El Mirage I think we will run 50cc SCS-F (sidecar streamliner fuel), after that the configuration depends on; time available and our success at developing new hardware.
Title: JUST FOR THE RECORD
Post by: JackD on May 17, 2006, 08:49:42 PM
The AMA and SCTA both claim speed records and pretend the other doesn't exist.
That really confuses the issue because it gives rise to the question " Who has the fastest what?"
The logical solution I would think would be for them to get together with a common purpose to improve the breed.
If it is supposed to be an amateur event anyway, the entries should be on common ground and let the promoters
stand on the strength of the event.
When you mix the objectives of promoters with amateur level LSR racing, the entrant suffers.
You have a great machine with a good start that deserves the best shot without the confusion of politricks.
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: RichFox on June 14, 2006, 01:19:31 PM
108. Very nice going guys. Jack Costalla just called to tell me all about your effort. If Jack is impressed so am I.
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: 1212FBGS on June 14, 2006, 03:04:33 PM
the gyronaut had a very different look it does kinda resemble the NSU liner that Eric and John are trying to out run. Its got a really cool look to it. and in case ya guys havent notices it has a hack wheel stickin out the side. 108 with hack drag on it is pretty danm good. I'm kinda excited to see what she'll do at the bub event in liner trim.
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: PorkPie on June 14, 2006, 03:26:59 PM
record set by NSU also in 1956 with our Team Arrow streamliner.

During the BUB meet this year, a replica of the NSU Delphin (Delfin) III with Heinz Herz as the rider will be on the starting line.
Last Thursday Heinz run the first test runs on a airfield close to Munich - was a great time to see this streamliner running.

See ya
Title: buddfab
Post by: Glen on June 14, 2006, 03:30:04 PM
Thay also choked the chute down for this meet and the lift and side pull went away. I had talked to Eric at the May meet because of the chute being a littlle large and it was pulling the bike around. They are good guys to work with and want to learn and do things the right way.  :D
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on June 14, 2006, 04:46:48 PM
The body is a streamlined cover for John?s size 13 shoes; any resemblance to other streamliners is mere coincidence.  We hope to update our website in a week or so with a report on the June El Mirage meet.
Title: To Cool!!
Post by: Rex Schimmer on June 14, 2006, 08:29:12 PM
Eric,
Your piece is just to COOL!! It is so simple and well designed and constructed. I was planning to do my lakester in aluminum but after looking at your web site and seeing how you did your body I am really considering fiberglass. Although aluminum doesn't itch like fiber glass.

Rex
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: 1212FBGS on June 14, 2006, 08:36:08 PM
rex I have several bike liner molds and shapes. I may have a body you might want to use as underpinnings and modify for your chassis. come on down and take a look...
kent
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on June 20, 2006, 12:58:09 PM
Last night we unbolted the sidecar, pulled the last of the bodywork off, flipped the chassis over, and placed it on sawhorses.  We would like to have a new landing gear system constructed with time to test it before the next El Mirage meet, and more dyno time, and a tow rope system, and new paint and ?. We?ll keep busy, see you at the next event.  - Eric

John updated the web site with his account of the June 2006 El Mirage event.

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/latestnewsjune.html

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3.html
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Sumner on June 20, 2006, 04:03:43 PM
Quote from: Eric_Noyes
Last night we unbolted the sidecar, pulled the last of the bodywork off, flipped the chassis over, and placed it on sawhorses.  We would like to have a new landing gear system constructed with time to test it before the next El Mirage meet, and more dyno time, and a tow rope system, and new paint and ?. We?ll keep busy, see you at the next event.  - Eric

John updated the web site with his account of the June 2006 El Mirage event.

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/latestnewsjune.html

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3.html


Hey great report and 108+ is fantastic.  I might not be able to go that fast and my motor is 15 times larger :cry: .

Quote
Next we tried the nitrous, starting rich, and leaning it a bit, it was making 21 HP. The plug looked happy, the piston skirt looked perfect and the lady upstairs was getting tired of the noise. We called it good and wrapped things up.


I've heard about the "man upstairs", but never the lady.  What kind of dyno are you running on?

The only thing I beg you to do is reduce the file size of your pictures so I can see them on dial-up :D

So next meet are you going to run without the sidecar?

c ya, Sum
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on June 20, 2006, 06:13:35 PM
We occasionally use Mike Akatiff?s Dynojet model 250 motorcycle chassis dyno (inertia with eddy current absorption unit) with just over eight lb-ft of torque at the crank on nitrous it doesn?t have to absorb much.  Mike?s turbocharged twin engine Suzuki Hyabusa powered streamliner undoubtedly gives it much more to think about.

We would like to test without the sidecar the day before the next El Mirage meet but we may not get it together until after that, with the limited space inside our liner, any practical system will be time consuming to fabricate and mount.  When we have new hardware to test, we will most likely use outrigger (training) wheels in addition to the new landing gear, but I don?t think we?ll commit to chopping holes in the bodywork before testing a new system.  We just don?t have a good place to test the chassis, El Mirage is our best choice, and for us, that?s over seven hours away after everything is loaded up, and it?s always windy.  We entered the 50cc motor on fuel, with and without the sidecar at the Bub event in September, that will probably be the next event entered as a streamliner without the sidecar.
Title: 50cc stuff
Post by: interested bystander on June 20, 2006, 07:20:08 PM
Not one to dampen ANYONES efforts at land speed records, but I've been biting my tongue for months over the Buddfab quest to exceed the 121 mph NSU record=You ought to think about the 140!!! speed AT Bonneville that the Kreidler set plus the 137 mph speed two way by another Kreidler on a road in Europe in the mid 60's. 50ccs both!

Research, research, research!
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on June 21, 2006, 02:10:31 PM
The Buddfab streamliner was designed to participate in SCTA events and meet their current rules and safety regulations.  The equipment that is mandated by them makes the vehicle significantly bigger and heavier (and safer) than they were when Kreidler powered bikes set FIM records.  The goal of exceeding the NSU SCTA record at an SCTA sanctioned Bonneville event would appear to me to be an entirely reasonable quest.  

If we attain our goal we may set a new goal of going after an FIM record or we might go after some other SCTA record.  If our original goal was to set an FIM record it is quite likely that we would have started with a different design that optimized the hardware to meet FIM rules.  Yes, we did research the problem and engine displacement wasn?t the only rule we had to abide.
Title: STREAMLINING THE EFFORT TO MAXIMIXE THE REWARD.
Post by: JackD on June 21, 2006, 07:28:50 PM
However you spell it the speeds will be accurately recorded.
The methods vary with the sanction and we can hope maybe some day they will be the same for everybody.
Survivability is every bit a important to the success of your project as any speed you ever went.
 It is important to everybody else also.
 Comparisons are easier to make than compliance, and enforcement is not always well received.
You owe it to yourself to exceed your objective.
 You owe it to everybody else to do it as safe as is possible.
 "This is not You Bet Your Life and My Sport."
Title: Phil York in the 70's
Post by: Freud on June 21, 2006, 10:21:31 PM
Jack, tell about Phil York on his fuel Honda 50cc in the 70's. I imagine you still have the record sheet from when he was timed by Earl.

Straight nitro made quite a runner out of a toy.
Title: THE TRUTH ABOUT NITRO
Post by: JackD on June 21, 2006, 11:06:45 PM
A famous racer was being interviewed for an article and asked how much Nitro he ran.
The quick answer was 120%.
The writer smiled and suggested that was not possible.
The racer said "Oh sure, We didn't have enough left so we borrowed some from another guy."
Eric will remember the load we put in his go cart at Carlsbad when he was a kid. (he still is).
 When he got back from a run it wouldn't stop running so we stuffed into the rails , spinning the tires until it ran out of juice.
 I don't think we could ever get it started again.
As was common practice in those days, the fuel line was clamped directly to the empty jet housing
and the slide needle regulated the flow like a Posifuel.
Float bowls were used as ash trays.
Nobody had after market cases to worry about or puters.
How strange ?
Title: Wheel fairings:
Post by: Rex Schimmer on June 22, 2006, 06:01:07 PM
Eric,
Any thoughts regarding fairing the exposed parts of the wheel? When you have limited power you need every possible assistance from other sources. Again from my favorite book on aero, "The Leading Edge" there is alot of discussion of the positive affects of fairing the wheel.

Still a NEAT project!!!

Rex
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on June 22, 2006, 08:21:38 PM
I have the book ?The Leading Edge?.  We just prioritized the aero package and got the big stuff done first, the exact wheel positions were not incorporated into the male body plug.  Wheel fairings, wheel covers, smoother bodywork with smaller gaps and seams, flush head body screws, are all planned, and will add a little bit to the top speed.  The plan to modify the bodywork is the main reason we haven?t painted it yet (I?m sticking to this excuse as long as I can), and after making the body, neither John nor I wanted anything to do with fiberglass ever again.  But as time passed the itchiness slowly went away and we got up the courage to make the sidecar wheel fairing.  After the memory of that project sufficiently fades, and we run out of other things to do, we?ll get back to cleaning up the body details.
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: PJQ on June 22, 2006, 09:08:28 PM
G'day Buddfab team,

You guys have done an amazing job.

The web site is really informative and I like the smarts in the design: using the frame tubing to store air, and hide hoses & cables - fantastic stuff. Using expanding foam to shape the body moulds is a great idea. We're nearing the body skin stage and I was dreading the effort of making moulds. Expanding foam is much easier than old-skool ply and bog technique we were about to use.

And that speed from the running gear of a Hair Dryer. There's a couple of old Vespas rotting in the back yard, might dig them out and start Project #178.

Regs,
PJQ
Velocity Science Laboratories
Title: July El Mirage
Post by: Eric_Noyes on July 24, 2006, 12:41:43 PM
John posted my July El Mirage report (typos and all).  We entered the 50cc fuel sidecar streamliner class.  On Sunday morning we detuned the motor (protection against the heat) and installed higher gearing than last month, John made it to the other end at 98mph.  We went for big numbers on my run in the afternoon; I had a very good start but the engine give up the ghost at the half-mile point.  We expect to have a bunch of new hardware ready for the Bub event.  Hope to see you there.


In my May ?06 El Mirage report I described the problems we had with the parachute.  Jack Costella uses the same chute on his liner, to reduce the extreme shock loads on deployment he folds the attachment line into a series (a dozen or so) of short pleats and secures them with masking tape.  The bundles rip open progressively making the attachment line act like a very elastic shock cord, it works great with the tiny (60 inch) parachutes that we use.
   Eric

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/latestnewsjuly06.html
http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: dirtydave on September 18, 2006, 09:12:55 AM
Hey Guys,
Love your mini liner, have takin quite a bit of interest in your project great work at the Bub speed trials, Is there much factory development in the 50cc engine, thought the 125cc motor would be given priority by the factory for motogp  racing..Anyway that takes nothing away from your acceivement, cheers and 140 mph may not be that far away :-k  :idea:
Title: Eric, a couple of questitons:
Post by: Rex Schimmer on September 18, 2006, 10:22:58 AM
Eric,
First congradulations on the records and I will be pulling for you to go over 140 at the October meet!!
1. I was looking at your site and was interested in the plan view shape of your body. Is this shape based upon a NACA symetrical wing profile?
If so which one did you select?

2. I see in your engine section that you wrap the expansion chamber with insulation. Is this just to keep things cool or do you find an power increase?

Great bike and best of luck in October!!!

Rex
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on September 18, 2006, 01:01:40 PM
This has been a team effort with John.  He decided to build a small bore streamliner after building the nose for the Ack Attack, his enthusiasm was infectious and we started collaborating on the design.

I started with a NACA 0018 symmetrical airfoil and distorted it to match the length and width of our hardware package.

As the pipe gets hotter the power moves to a higher rpm; the wrap makes the power band more consistent.  Also we have minimal airflow through the engine compartment so the wrap helps keep the fuel, nitrous, motor and other components cooler.
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on September 26, 2006, 12:28:40 PM
John now has a link to a short video shot by Mike Stanton on our home page.

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3

Mike was shooting still pictures of motorcycle streamliners at the zero mile of the 06 Bub Event for his English magazine   http://www.speedrecordclub.com  John handed him his tiny video camera (any suggestions on a device, that?s smaller than a tripod, that can stabilize a four inch long camera when using a lot of zoom would be appreciated).

This was the last half day of the event; we waited all day the day before; and several hours that morning for the winds to die down.  Rick and I pushed John off; he is running fuel; on our first attempt at the long course the motor broke a ring at about four miles and trashed the top end.  John was using the first three miles of this run to break in the new top end; short shifting by two thousand rpm (not 4) and using part throttle.  It just starts to pull into the power band; he shifts into second; presses the handle bar switch and the air cylinders pull up the landing gear; he shifts into third, as the clip ends he is about to shift into 4th at about 85 mph.  John entered the measured mile (5 miles from the start) at 130 mph and exited at 135 mph.  We ended up with an AMA record of 133.895 mph (AMA  S-AF) two way average.
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on September 26, 2006, 07:55:49 PM
Another exhaust question. Why the muffler?
Title: Muffler.
Post by: Reverend Hedgash on September 26, 2006, 08:24:03 PM
To make it street legal of course!
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Dave H. on September 26, 2006, 09:39:51 PM
Hi Eric,

Sounds like a good application for a monopod, the still photo guys
use them when they need a compromise between stability/mobility.

Cheers,

Dave
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on September 27, 2006, 12:09:58 PM
We don?t use a muffler at an event just a straight stinger.  We sometimes perform a baseline dyno run without one, but then put one on.

 I like two strokes but I don?t think anyone other than possibly the profoundly deaf wearing earplugs and headphones; could tolerate for more than a few seconds; the high-pitched crackle that the straight pipe makes at maximum rpm (14,000 +).  A straight through silencer (don?t trust any pipe you can?t see through) has very little effect on the power curve but the deeper softer tone drastically decreases the blood pressure rise of anyone within an eighth mile radius.
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on October 25, 2006, 11:44:53 AM
John put our October El Mirage report up on the web site.

The short version is: we left with only 25 points.

While we were preparing for the World Finals I took some photos of the new motorcycle landing gear; we will post them with a description soon.

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Sumner on October 25, 2006, 12:29:12 PM
Quote from: Eric_Noyes
John put our October El Mirage report up on the web site.

The short version is: we left with only 25 points.

While we were preparing for the World Finals I took some photos of the new motorcycle landing gear; we will post them with a description soon.

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3


Great story, sad ending :cry: .  There are so many details to this LSR and any one of them can jump up and get you.

Sounds like you might have the motor running on fuel better :D .

I haven't forgotten you guys and hope to have some of your pictures reduced in size and up soon.  

Good luck at the Nov. meet,

Sum
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: 1212FBGS on October 25, 2006, 12:59:17 PM
Hey Eric
El Mo gets very cold at night, a couple of years ago at the november meet my cooling system froze. we took all the hoses off and ran hot water on them to try to thaw them in the shower of the motor home. we thought the blocks would thaw themselve out but the water pumps broke from the water expantion. so we went home. I installed 3ea 1500 watt 110v heating eliments in the 30 gallon tank. we heat the water up to 180f and then turn on the electrin pumps to warm the blocks up. you could install a 12v evement in your system and run jumper cables from your chase truck. you could also put quick disconects on your hoses and jump the system from your chase truck radiator. always drain your system or use anti freeze in oct and nov meets. I also buy boxes of these single use anti static wipes that look like handi wipes from mc master carr. my guys use them on there face shields in our dust grinding booth, they work great. big learning experiance from little stuff.
yours in sport
Kent
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: 1212FBGS on October 28, 2006, 03:11:53 PM
hey eric

El Mirage procedures award "recognition points", section VII A.2.d) "all entrants which fail to cross the finish line after push-off shall be awarded twenty-five (25) points". On the SCTA website, they awarded you "0" :? ya might want 2 drop them a email and get it corrected
kent
Title: De fogging:
Post by: Rex Schimmer on October 30, 2006, 10:17:48 AM
Eric,
Checked your site for the story of your Oct. El Mirage race and see that you had some fogging problems. I raced bikes in the desert for years and wore glasses all the time and I know what it is like to have them and your goggles fog over. The very best thing I ever found was using liquid soap, it doesn't seem to matter what kind but the proceedure is this:
Coat the lense or sheild with a thin layer of liquid soap, if you are doing glasses and also using a face sheild coat both sides of the glasses and probably the sheild too. Let it set for 5 minutes and then with SOFT cloth towles polish the lenses until they are clear and shiney. Done deal! they will not fog up! Works a hundred times better than your anti fog cloth and usually will last all day. Will also work on the inside of your wind screen.

I did this for years and even used it on the Lola T600 I was working on when we ran at the Daytona 24 hour, it was the only thing that would work if you didn't have a defroster.

Rex
Title: Re: De fogging:
Post by: John Noonan on October 30, 2006, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: Rex Schimmer
Eric,
Checked your site for the story of your Oct. El Mirage race and see that you had some fogging problems. I raced bikes in the desert for years and wore glasses all the time and I know what it is like to have them and your goggles fog over. The very best thing I ever found was using liquid soap, it doesn't seem to matter what kind but the proceedure is this:
Coat the lense or sheild with a thin layer of liquid soap, if you are doing glasses and also using a face sheild coat both sides of the glasses and probably the sheild too. Let it set for 5 minutes and then with SOFT cloth towles polish the lenses until they are clear and shiney. Done deal! they will not fog up! Works a hundred times better than your anti fog cloth and usually will last all day. Will also work on the inside of your wind screen.

I did this for years and even used it on the Lola T600 I was working on when we ran at the Daytona 24 hour, it was the only thing that would work if you didn't have a defroster.

Rex


Rex,

Thanks for the great info.. :P
Title: T600
Post by: Reverend Hedgash on November 04, 2006, 09:15:29 PM
That is indeed good info Rex!

Also a Lola T600 hey? Which engine config? Porsche, Chev? I wonder how one of those would do on the salt...

Sorry to be off topic Buddfab, keep up the great work and bring it to Lake Gairdner!

Rev.H+
Title: T600
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 05, 2006, 01:13:26 PM
I worked for Interscope Racing, Danny Ongias, we had two T600s with 355 small block Chevs and one with a turbo V6 Chev. All the engines were by Ryan Falconer. In 82 we were runner up in IMSA but only ran three races in 83 then the owner, Ted Field decided to get into the movies and he stopped racing. Ted got his money the hard way, when his dad died he inherited $500,000,000! so he could afford to have lots of race cars! We also had two Kremer Bros 935 K3s and one of their K4s which was a real sh-t box. It was a great team to work for first class everything. That's where I meet Danny Thompson, Mickey's son, he was a fabricator/welder for the IMSA and Indy car teams. Great time!

Rex
Title: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: 1212FBGS on November 05, 2006, 02:07:54 PM
Hey I also worked on the Ongais lola! It was in a hanger in Oceanside and i made the headlight covers and did a lot of repair on the belli pans!
kent
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: whitworthsocket on December 26, 2006, 10:20:51 PM
Hello John and Eric,
I like your work and it has paid dividends.
I have a few questions.
1.I see that you have put a tail fin on in your build photos. Did the fin have a good effect on stability?
2. Can I buy a fire system like yours or have you custom built it.
3. What triggering system do you use for the parachute and fire system.
Regards

Whitworthsocket.
Western Australia
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on December 27, 2006, 04:23:40 PM
1) The tail helps with stability when the wind is nearly a direct headwind.  This is always the case at high speed, as an example: when a 10 mph side wind (90 degrees) combines with a 150 mph headwind (vehicle ground speed) it produces an effective off axis head wind of less than 4 degrees.  Assuming the vehicle center of gravity is ahead of the center of pressure, the tail would produce a torque that counters the side wind automatically (without any help from tire traction).  Unfortunately at very low speed the tail just adds to the side area and makes it more sensitive to side winds, a tail that is closer to the ground will lower the center of pressure height and reduce this detrimental effect somewhat but it is also less effective because it is operating in dirtier air.  We reduced the size of the tail after our first Bonneville meet and I think that helped.  Lately cross wind stability has been more than adequate.  We recently tested at El Mirage with 15 mph wind gusts and stability hasn?t been a problem.  The low speeds, small size, short wheelbase and quick steering allow the Buddfab streamliner to react quicker to side winds than the bigger liners.

At Bonneville this year John or my typical run would start out wobbly, a series of S turns is needed to pull it off the landing gear (at about 20 mph) and find balance.  It doesn?t feel unstable just quick steering (like a road bicycle but quicker) we have to concentrate on very gentle handlebar inputs, the low center of gravity and pointy tires allow it to roll and turn very quickly.  As the speed comes up, the wheels spin faster, and the steering gets heavier, at about 70 mph it feels like a very light street motorcycle, at 100 mph it feels like a 600cc sport bike and from there up through 130 mph it just got stiffer and more stable.  I hope this trend continues up past 200 mph (if we someday go with a big motor).  The plan is to put progressively more powerful engines in it (in 2007 we will run the 50cc more as we develop the fuel system, then step up to the 100cc class).  As we go faster we will undoubtedly require more design changes.

2) This is approximately (different brand) the fire system that we use, when we go over 150 mph we will have to run a 10 lb. System.  If you don?t have room for the pull handle you could use an electric system, this has the advantage of easily adding multiple activation switches.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=3155

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=4430

3) The parachute is activated by an electric push button from the handle bar or if it tips over or does something particularly violent, by a pair of mercury tilt switches

(7 amp @ 120 VAC part #7689K53 from  McMaster-Carr Supply Company).

http://www.mcmaster.com

We have never had the mercury switches misfire on the track; but the chute has come out after a big bump while practicing on a rough area (not on the course) at El Mirage.


What are you building?  The world needs more liners.
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: whitworthsocket on December 29, 2006, 02:12:15 PM
Eric,
How did you guess?  :-D With questions like mine that Im building a liner.
Its going to be an Omega class powered machine.
Thanks very much for the information. Especially about the vehicle dynamics

I have had a good  look at the pegasus racing site. Great!

Eric with the wisdom of hindsight is there any thing saftey wise that you would have done differently?
 Regards

Whitworthsocket
Western Australia.
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on December 30, 2006, 01:57:57 AM
I suspect that your first thought is to lay out the engine compartment and suspension, do that second, the mechanical components can be configured over a much larger range than the driver can.  Start by mocking up the driver?s compartment and roll bar, then package the other things around it.  John and I measured and mocked up our liner before we bought the required thick fire suits.  Obtain a full set of gear including helmet, seatbelts and arm restraints. Make sure you can use the controls, unlatch the belts and canopy, and get out of from under the rollbar quickly, you lose a lot of flexibility with the required kit. Being able to see out the front is also a nice early priority. 

John designed and built a lot of roadrace cars over the years and I?ve designed a lot of hardware, motorcycle and bicycle parts, but this is our first liner, we?re new at this, look at how other people do things. Go to Sumner Patterson?s site:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bonneville-Index.html
He has collected photos and information from people with a lot more land speed racing experience than we have.
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Glen on December 30, 2006, 10:23:41 AM
A cheap and easy way for a mock up is to use PVC pipe. Easy to cut and fit. It will give you the guide lines for laying the real pipe. :-D
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: whitworthsocket on December 30, 2006, 10:47:14 AM
Eric and Glen,
Thankyou for the information.
I am still a way off construction. I guess with all projects the design process is critical to success.
I will post my design to a webpage in due course.

Regards
Title: Re: Buddha Streamliner
Post by: JackD on December 30, 2006, 11:50:29 AM
A cheap and easy way for a mock up is to use PVC pipe. Easy to cut and fit. It will give you the guide lines for laying the real pipe. :-D

With the PVC you can bend it with heat from hot water, a heat lamp, hair drier , and even a 1000 watt flood lamp like you might use on a construction project.
You can use all the same tooling to fit the tubing and that sample can be taken to a bender to duplicate and you already know it fits.
What ever rider position you select the construction of the rider area is dictated by the rules.
 The fact that you need the same protection for you is a plus because if you have the same cockpit construction and safety features for whatever power supp;y and level you evolve into over the life of the project.
You don't want any open ends in the tubing structure that can collect moisture from the environment and deteriorate it from the inside where you can't see it.
When you are done with the welding, sometimes the frame is filled and then drained with Linseed oil to give it a protective coating.
Another method is to interconnect all the tubes with a very small hole and pressurize it with dry nitrogen.
With a Schrader valve in 1 area and a gauge from a Fire bottle in another it not only keeps the moisture out but offers an easy crack check.
Argon as a backup gas will improve the welding quality also.
Use as many stock MC parts as you can because they are cheap , easy to fit, and as strong as you will ever need until you are really really going really fast .

ENJOY
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on December 30, 2006, 12:34:06 PM
This is what the Ack Attack liner uses. From a previous post:
Quote
This is what we use

http://www.riekerinc.com/E-Inclinometers/SlopeAlert.htm (http://www.riekerinc.com/E-Inclinometers/SlopeAlert.htm)

We use a 2 axis.  45 degree for side to side and 10 degree for nose up.

They are relatively cheap about $80.00 for single axis and $180.00 for two axis.

All solid state and pretty much bullet proof. we tried all sorts of vibration and shock levels and they won't go off unless you exceed the programed angles.
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 15, 2007, 05:12:15 PM
Eric, I saw your "bike" at the S.F. Rod and Custom show for the first time and it is very neat as I have always thought but I wonder a little about the two rows of what appear to be 10-32 button head screws on each side of the bike. These things just cause flow seperation, any thought of going with flat head, counter sunk screws??

Rex
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on January 15, 2007, 07:25:38 PM
It?s all an engineering compromise, we had to choose an appropriate balance between: function / construction time / volume / weight / service life and aesthetics.  The screws only stick up .101? above the surface, and their .361 head diameter does a nice job of not pulling through the fiberglass, the same can?t be said of small countersunk screws in a thin glass panel.  After a year of use, and many remove and replace cycles, we haven?t had to do any repairs on the body panels, the holes are still in good shape.

At significantly subsonic speeds I think the screw heads pose a much larger perceived penalty than their actual impediment to aerodynamic efficiency deserves.

Having said all that, I agree that it would look better with flush head screws.  It was an early pragmatic decision that we didn?t change before we had it painted.  If our next liner is bigger and heavier the balance might tip toward a more aesthetically pleasing panel attachment strategy.

John put a photo of the new paint job on the website.  We will soon add more stickers and graphics; there is never enough time, we were rushed to get it ready for the show.

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3

Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Stan Back on January 16, 2007, 12:48:13 PM
I think it's gorgeous the way it is!  Screw the graphics and decals!
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: sockjohn on March 04, 2007, 06:11:55 PM
Eric,
How did you guess?  :-D With questions like mine that Im building a liner.
Its going to be an Omega class powered machine.
Thanks very much for the information. Especially about the vehicle dynamics

I have had a good  look at the pegasus racing site. Great!

Eric with the wisdom of hindsight is there any thing saftey wise that you would have done differently?
 Regards

Whitworthsocket
Western Australia.

An Omega powered motorcycle liner, or a car liner?  The former seems rather difficult!

These guys could use some competition:
http://www.steamcar.co.uk/
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: whitworthsocket on March 06, 2007, 09:54:52 AM
Yes they have a rather ambitious project. Nice website
Mine is much simpler and hopefully a little quicker in the construction phase.
Regards

Whitworthsocket
Western Australia.
[/quote]

An Omega powered motorcycle liner, or a car liner?  The former seems rather difficult!

These guys could use some competition:
http://www.steamcar.co.uk/
[/quote]
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on May 16, 2007, 02:43:45 PM
John posted the May ’07 El Mirage report.  I’ll drive next month with a higher gear and a bigger dose of nitrous, in an attempt to beat John’s 113.111 mph in 50cc S-F.
Eric

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Sumner on May 16, 2007, 03:10:45 PM
John posted the May ’07 El Mirage report.  I’ll drive next month with a higher gear and a bigger dose of nitrous, in an attempt to beat John’s 113.111 mph in 50cc S-F.
Eric

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3


Congrats....you guys are my hero's  :-) .  I was looking at your streamliner a little while ago and thought hang some wheels/tires off the side of it and put a hair dryer on that little motor and you could set some records in K lakester class with a motor that is 450 cc under maximum allowed size  :wink: .  Be pretty impressive to set a record in a 500 cc class with a 50 cc motor.

I like the paint job also.  Hope to see you guys there for the June meet,

Sum
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: JGMagoo on May 16, 2007, 11:20:44 PM
"and the lady upstairs was getting tired of the noise."

I just read the above on your web site and about cracked-up!

My God! I can't imagine living above two crazies doing continuous dyno runs on a hot 50cc 2-Stroke!

 :lol: :roll: :roll:

JGMagoo
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Dr Goggles on May 17, 2007, 04:13:20 PM

[/quote]

Congrats....you guys are my hero's  :-) .  Sum

[/quote]

I'll second that without hesitation.The shot of the car in green is just gorgeous.Big up guys.
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: sockjohn on May 17, 2007, 10:57:21 PM
John posted the May ’07 El Mirage report.  I’ll drive next month with a higher gear and a bigger dose of nitrous, in an attempt to beat John’s 113.111 mph in 50cc S-F.
Eric

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3


Congrats....you guys are my hero's  :-) .  I was looking at your streamliner a little while ago and thought hang some wheels/tires off the side of it and put a hair dryer on that little motor and you could set some records in K lakester class with a motor that is 450 cc under maximum allowed size  :wink: .  Be pretty impressive to set a record in a 500 cc class with a 50 cc motor.

I like the paint job also.  Hope to see you guys there for the June meet,

Sum


Yikes, that would be pretty ambitious to go after a car record with just one wheel getting traction, but they already have one sidecar built, just need a mirror.

I've always been impressed with this streamliner, it's a real beautiful piece of art, and being ran very well.

What's the biggest motor that would fit in that thing?
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on May 18, 2007, 02:46:57 AM
We did our early testing with a Honda 125, two stroke singles up to 175cc will bolt in (two to three times more power) but with a few modifications anything is possible.  This year we want to go for the FIM 50cc World record in September, after that we would like to develop a “big” motor for next year. 
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Eric_Noyes on May 25, 2008, 04:02:26 PM
John posted our May El Mirage report; but the short version is: we ran the 50 with a turbo on fuel.  It makes less power than normally aspirated for 90% of the rpm range then builds to a power peak at the rev limiter that is 25% higher (~ 6psi boost) .   The streamliner with the sidecar went about 8% faster than the same set up without a turbo. The numbers are working exactly as predicted by a cubic function.

The motor survived 4 El Mo runs and appears happy.  We didn’t data log the boost pressure during the runs but our dyno testing leads us to believe that the waist gate may allow the boost to creep upward.  Durability at Bonneville is still a big question (we get to enjoy the long course for a several minutes at over 14,000 rpm). 

Cylinders are hard to get; so we may turn the boost down for testing at the June El Mirage event. After the World finals it will be fun to lock the waist gate and see what it will do at El Mo.

Just finished the Bub paperwork; John will be going after the Blown fuel 50cc FIM record and I will use a CR80 motor (the “Big Block”) for an attempt at the normally aspirated fuel 100cc FIM record.

We heard a possibly unfounded rumor that the Motobcane factory is sending a 50cc streamliner to Bonneville this year….the guy that said it; had a thick French accent and was on a moped (at El Mo). Quite often we hear news that someone is building a small streamliner, but I if they do actually start construction; it appears that the volume of work stops them before completion.

Rocky Robinson gave us a write up on mototcycle-usa
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=6462&Page=1

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3

Eric
Title: Re: Buddfab Streamliner
Post by: Stan Back on May 25, 2008, 10:32:39 PM
Eighty see-see?  We're gonna have to stand back behind the dike (dyke?)!  Go get 'em!  You guys have more than paid your dues -- don't worry about frogs leaping on the course.  Best Always.