Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Seldom Seen Slim on November 26, 2012, 09:40:01 PM
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Here they are, fresh from Dan Warner. He deserves another great round of applause for getting these changes out to all of us as early as they are. I intend to put them here and also on the home page of the site -- so everyone, not just the Forum folks, get easily find and view them.
Cars here, and bikes in the next post. I'll do it that way 'cause the list is a few pages long.
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA TIMING ASSOCIATION
2013 rule changes, general and cars
Changes in bold.
SECTION 1 GENERAL COMPETITION REQUIREMENTS
1.A TECHNICAL INSPECTION:
Add new paragraph:
During the safety inspection, the Technical Inspection Committee may assign a speed limit to the vehicle. A sticker will be applied to the vehicle and the speed limit noted in the log book. This sticker must remain in place until the vehicle is made to conform to the published rules of the class.
1.F QUALIFYING:
Add new sentence:
At Bonneville a rookie driver/rider may qualify for a record on their rookie run if the existing record is less than 150 MPH.
SECTION 2 CAR COMPETITION SPECIFICATIONS
2.F TIRES:
The use of any non-rated tire(s) such as implement, farm, aircraft, reproduction of a vintage automobile or motorcycle tire, 17” drag race tires or any non-pneumatic wheel/tire combination (no rubber) shall be submitted for approval to the contest board in writing 45 days prior to an event.
SECTION 3 TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS & REQUIREMENTS
3.D.2 SEAT BELTS:
Minimum 5 point seat belts meeting SFI specification 16.1 or SFI specification 16.5, quick release, competition type seat belts are mandatory in all categories. …
3.E DRIVER’S COMPARTMENT:
Add new paragraph:
Beginning January 1, 2014:
All driver’s compartments shall not be open to the exterior of the vehicle or track surface such that the driver is potentially exposed to dangers such as fire or debris as well as dust. A rear floor or aft bulkhead is required in all vehicles where applicable.
3.K BATTERIES:
All batteries shall be properly secured with metal framework and fasteners. Plastic tie-downs are not allowed. Batteries may be mounted in the driver’s compartment if sealed in an acid spill-proof box. Dry cell type batteries(Optima, Odyssey, etc.) are exempt from this rule.
3.Q FIRE EXTINGUISHING SYSTEMS:
All cars and enclosed motorcycles shall have a minimum of one driver-controlled fire extinguishing system using a minimum of 5 lbs. of extinguishing agent designed and applied to function as driver protection. Approved agents include Halon 1301, Halon 1211, DuPont FE36, and certain AFFF systems including Cold Fire 302, ESS Foam, Firefox Gem Foam or other Halon replacement certified by the manufacturer for use in a confined space. Dry chemical and CO2 may be used in the engine compartment only. The application and installation shall be in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendations for the size and shape of the driver’s compartment. The discharge rate should be designed to allow sufficient protection for the time it will take the car to stop from speed.
NOTE: Care and consideration shall be taken to prevent driver suffocation. Fresh air venting or breathing systems may be necessary.
ALL CARS and MOTORCYCLE STREAMLINERS, 0-200 MPH shall have a total of 10 lbs. extinguishing agent onboard. At least 5 lbs. must serve the driver area and the additional 5 lbs. may serve the engine area or a combination of the driver and engine areas. Both areas shall be served via fixed nozzles. Acceptable agents in the engine area include CO2, foam, Halon, a Halon replacement or dry chemical. The engine system shall generally include 2 nozzles directed toward the header/oil pan area or be installed according to manufactures recommendation. Only Halon or Halon replacement agents may be used in the driver’s compartment (see above paragraph).
ALL VEHICLES OVER 200 MPH, because of the additional time required to stop, shall be equipped with additional extinguishing agent (in addition to the 5 lbs. minimum) which is designed and fitted for driver protection. The installation should be commensurate with driver compartment size and the speed of the vehicle. Contact a reputable safety equipment manufacturer for installation advice.
Minimum Agent Requirements:
0-200 MPH 10 lbs. min. Driver & engine
201+ MPH 11 lbs. min. Over 5 lbs. for driver
NOTE: The amount of required agent should not be confused with total bottle weight.
All competition vehicle extinguishing system control valves shall be within the reach of the driver while strapped in position. The valves shall be designed to remain open once actuated. All agent lines and nozzles shall be metal and securely mounted. Extinguishing agent cylinders within the driver’s compartment shall be mounted with a system more substantial than hose clamps alone. The use of hose clamps as a primary mounting system is prohibited.
A current inspection/filling certification (no more than 24 months old) for each agent bottle shall be visible to the technical inspector without removing the bottle.
NOTE: Agent delivery lines are subject to dust and moisture clogging. Participants are responsible to assure that the fire system is full and operable before each event. Frequent clearing of the lines is recommended. Aqueous foam systems require that the nozzles be directed appropriately so that the agent does not impede the vision of the driver. Questions concerning fire-extinguishing systems may be directed to the Gaseous Fuel & Fire Extinguishing System Specialist, section 16.
All push/recovery/support vehicles are required to have a minimum of one 4 lb. portable fire extinguisher.
3.U WINDOWS AND WINDSHIELDS:
Add new sentence:
The original roll up window hole may be closed in replacing the frameless glass window with polycarbonate.
3.W BRAKES:
Add new sentence:
No front wheel brakes only systems are allowed.
SECTION 4 DEFINITIONS
4.R HOOD SCOOPS:
A hood scoop is a functional air intake device used on full body, un-blown vehicles, where allowed. No part of a forward facing hood scoop can extend forward of the leading edge of the hood, be more than 11” above the surface of the hood at the centerline or extend past the trailing edge of the hood more than 11” at the centerline.
4.X ROOF RAILS:
A piece of metal angle, perpendicular to the roof, and a minimum of ½ in. high to a maximum of ¾ in. high. The roof rail shall be attached to the roof on each side as close to the outside edge as possible. The roof rails shall be parallel from the front to the rear. The roof rails may extend from the base of the windshield to the base of the rear window. Roof Rails shall be installed on any Coupe, Sedan or truck when the existing class records exceeds 200 MPH. Roof rails will not be considered for classification purposes.
SECTION 5 CAR CLASSES
5.B VINTAGE CATEGORY
This category is specifically intended for the lovers of antique iron. Although fiberglass and aluminum bodies are allowed, the body shall be an exact replica of an American production automobile body except for the Vintage Oval Track class.
5.B.1 Modified Roadster - /BFMR, /FMR, /BGMR, /GMR
In addition to the general category requirements, cars in this class shall have an American production automobile roadster body or an exact replica of an American automobile production roadster body as produced between 1923 and 1938.
Streamlining ahead of and including the cowl and Channeling (4.I.1) is permitted. Air Intakes (4.B), air vents (4.C) and the following as defined in Section 4.CC Streamlining are allowed: Splitters (4.CC.1), Axle Fairing (4.CC.2), Belly Pan (4.CC.3), Headrest Fairing (4.CC.4), Skirts (4.CC.7), Strakes (4.CC.9), and Wings (4.CC.12). No fairing or special covering of the wheels and tires is permitted. Splitters may not extend beyond the inner plane of the rear tires nor beyond the aft most portion of the body.
5.B.1.a Rear Engine Modified Roadster - /BFRMR, /FRMR, /BGRMR, /GRMR
In addition to the general category requirements, cars in this class shall have an American production automobile roadster body or an exact replica of an American production automobile roadster body as produced between 1923 and 1938.
Streamlining ahead of and including the cowl and Channeling (4.I.1) is permitted. Air Intakes (4.B), air vents (4.C) and the following, as defined in Section 4.CC Streamlining, are allowed: Splitters (4.CC.1), Axle Fairing (4.CC.2), Belly Pan (4.CC.3), Headrest Fairing (4.CC.4), Skirts (4.CC.7), Strakes (4.CC.9) and Wings (4.CC.12). No fairing or special covering of the wheels and tires is permitted. Splitters may not extend beyond the inner plane of the rear tires nor beyond the aft most portion of the body.
5.B.2 Fuel-Gas Roadster - /BFR, /FR, /BGR, /GR
In addition to the general category requirements, cars in this class shall have an American production automobile roadster body or an exact replica of a roadster body as produced between 1928 and 1938.
Add new class:
5.B.2.a American Gas Roadster – C/AGR (Gas only)
This is a single displacement engine class only. All rules which pertain to the existing Fuel/Gas Roadster class, 5.2.B, above will be enforced in this class.
The engine used must be an American Automotive Production or Light Duty Pick Up Truck engines produced prior to 1973. The maximum engine displacement is 372.99 cid (6.111 L). The engine can be of a larger OEM displacement and reduced to the class maximum by reducing the bore and/or stroke. All engines in this class must run OEM iron blocks and cylinder heads. The burden of proof as to the origin of the engine components lies with the competitor. Induction can be either carburetors, mechanical fuel injection. Ignition must be a single magneto or points distributor. No EFI, computer controlled ignition, data collection, etc. computers are allowed.
Engine class allowed: C
Entrants in this class are NOT eligible for the Season Points Championship at El Mirage during the 2013 racing season.
5.B.3 Street Roadster - /BSTR, /STR (Gas only)
In addition to the general category requirements, cars in this class shall have an American production automobile roadster body, or an exact replica of a body produced between 1923 and 1938.
Any frame may be used which is fabricated of round, square, or rectangular steel tubing, not less than 2 in. x .120 in. or channel not less than 4 in. x .120 in. No multi-tube frames may be used. Any type of rear end may be used, and widening of the rear tread to allow the tires to protrude beyond the fenders is permitted as long as 50% of the tire width is still covered by the fender.
5.B.4 VINTAGE COUPE Classes:
The rules in these classes are identical to the respective Modified Category classes, except that only 1948 or earlier bodies with XF, XO, XXF, XXO, V4 or V4F engines are allowed. In all classes except VGC, fenders and running boards may be removed if it can be done by unbolting the fenders from the body. Pre-1949 bodies may have a 3 in. beauty chop. Pre-1949 cars shall have radiator/grille shells of the same manufacturer as the body, e.g., Ford on Ford, Chevy on Chevy, etc. Air Dams (4.CC.1) are not permitted in the Vintage Gas Coupe and Sedan classes using vintage engines. Minor trim items, door handles, exposed hinges and rain gutters may be removed in the Competition Coupe and Altered classes only. Minor trim item removal is restricted to the /VGC class.
5.C CLASSIC CATEGORY
Add G, H, I & J engine classes to body classes /CBFALT, /CFALT, /CBGALT, /CGALT, /CBGC, /CGC, /CPROD
Entrants in these engine classes are NOT eligible for the Season Points Championship at El Mirage during the 2013 racing season.
5.D MODIFIED CATEGORY
American coupes and sedans 1928 to current year, foreign coupes and sedans 1949 to current year and 1928-1981 American coupes and sedans that do not meet the requirements for Classic Category. This category…
Examples include Honda CRX, Ford Mustang GT 350's, Porsche, Nissan Z 2+2, etc. Non-factory modifications to add seats will not be considered as defining seating configurations for classification purposes.
5.D.1 Competition Coupe & Sedan - /BFCC, /FCC, /BGCC, /GCC
Add new sentence:
Drip rails may be removed or filled.
5.D.4 Modified Sports - /BFMS, /FMS, /BGMS, GMS
Add new sentence:
Drip rails may be removed or filled.
5.F DIESEL TRUCK CATEGORY
5.F.4 Diesel Truck - /DT
Engine and driveline swaps are permitted. Flywheel shields are mandatory. Roll cages shall be mounted inside the cab. Down bars may be mounted on the exterior.
9.A.2 Competition Numbers:
1 through 25 is assigned by the SCTA on the basis of the entry’s standing at the end of the previous racing season. See the El Mirage Procedure Manual for an explanation of points earning and Association standings. For number assignment, contact the representative for Competition/Entry Numbers, see Section 16.
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Here are the 2013 rule changes for bikes. this set is only about two full pages - don't go looking for more, like you might have found on the car list.
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA TIMING ASSOCIATION
2013 rules changes, motorcycles
Changes are in bold
7.A GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR MOTORCYCLES
7.A.6 Rule Changes:
Add new sentence:
ALL REQUESTS FOR DEVIATIONS TO CURRENT RULES SHALL BE SUBMITTED TO THE CONTEST BOARD NO LATER THAN 45 DAYS PRIOR TO THE EVENT FOR REVIEW.
7.B MOTORCYCLE TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS & REQUIREMENTS:
7.B.8 Tire Requirements:
All H, V, Z, ZR or lower rated tires shall have been produced within the last 10 years as of the date of the current event. Sidewall date coding will be checked.
7.C RIDING APPAREL:
7.C.2 Leathers:
One-piece or two-piece 350 deg. (zipped together) all leather is required and the zipper must be sewn to the leather. Limited perforations and cloth or non-cloth panels are allowed in the armpit and at the back of the knee. No single panel can be larger than a total of 12 square inches each. Fairing (leather or cloth only) on the back of leathers is allowed in partial streamlined classes only.
7.D CLASSIFICATION of DISPLACEMENTS, FRAMES, ENGINES, and ENGINE TYPES:
7.D.3 Engine Displacement Classes:
Displacement shall be greater than the maximum allowable for the next lower class. To permit minor reconditioning of worn cylinder blocks in classes other than Production, it is permitted to increase cylinder bore diameter .020 in. (.508 mm) beyond that which provides maximum displacement for the class only if the OEM bore diameter is within .020 in. (.508 mm) of the maximum class displacement. In all cases, the resulting displacement shall be exceeded to qualify for the next higher class. The .020 in. (.508 mm) will be discounted for record certification and will be noted on the certification card and in the logbook.
Vintage engines are allowed +.050 in. overbore, see section 7.J.10.
7.E PRODUCTION - P
7.E.1.6 Lighting Equipment and Instruments:
Shall be exactly the same as fitted to the original model when it was sold. Adjustable headlights must have the lens mounted in the vertical position. Reflectors, turn signal lights, and their supporting brackets may be removed only if not integrated with the body fairing. To avoid heat buildup, lamps may be rendered inoperative. Non-OEM switches, gauges, instruments or controls are not permitted, except for required safety equipment.
7.G SPECIAL CONSTRUCTION – A, APS
The Special Construction class is intended for purpose-built race bikes, not production bikes with minor modifications. A special construction frame is unlimited in design, except for the class requirements of this section. This class includes factory produced road racing or any other racing “works” models.
Bikes in this class must have either a full APS fairing or two of the following:
-- Two or more engines
-- Unlimited engine displacement
-- Seat base lower than top of rear tire with the rider seated on the bike
-- Design items not permitted in the Modified Production class
-- Center hub steering
7.G.9 Engine:
A maximum of 4 engines of unlimited displacement are permitted.
7.G.10 Open Class – Special Construction - A
Add new last paragraph:
It shall be possible to see all of the rider from either side. As viewed directly from above, it shall be possible to see all of the rider except for the legs and feet. It is forbidden to use any transparent material to avoid the application of these rules.
7.H STREAMLINER - S
Add new last paragraph:
Prior to starting construction it is strongly suggested that the constructor submit final design prints to the Technical Committee for evaluation of compliance with rules and safety considerations.
7.I SIDECAR - SC
7.I.3 Driver Location:
The rider shall operate the sidecar outfit with motorcycle type handlebars from a position which places his centerline between the front and rear drive treads. The rider must be visible from the hips to the shoulders from the side view and be able to exit the outfit without restriction, unless in compliance with enclosed streamliner rules.
7.J ENGINE CLASSES
7.J.10 Class VG and VF:
Same as Class G or F, except that the class is limited to motorcycle engines produced prior to 1956.
For reasons of historical authenticity, vintage engine modifications are restricted to older technology levels as far as practical. Accordingly, in classes VF, VG, VBF and VBG newer technologies such as EFI, or electronic reactive ignition systems are not in keeping with the spirit of the Vintage classes and are not allowed. Computers are allowed for data collection purposes only.
Engines shall utilize OEM crankcase, OEM cylinders on flatheads and two strokes and OEM heads on OHV engines. Above components made after 1955 and exact reproductions may be considered legal in Vintage classes if they offer no competitive advantage. Pre installation approval by the contest board is required. It is the entrant’s responsibility to provide documentation and samples. A .050 in. overbore is allowed on vintage engines only (including production vintage) only if the OEM bore diameter is within .050 in. (.508 mm) of maximum class displacement and will be discounted when the bore size is measured.
Flathead engine displacement will be discounted 33 1/3% in determining engine displacement class limits. For example, a 1500cc measured displacement would run as a 1000cc.
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Kind of tough to follow. The bold print did not transfer over.
DW
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Dan & Jon-- thanks for posting these new regulations. Very helpful.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Dan and Slim -- thanks!
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Yep - I've just noticed that the bold print didn't make it through to the post. Lemme see if I can get it there for you.
Dang -- not right away can I get 'em in bold where they should be. I'll work on it and get back to you. Sorry for right now.
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In the revised rules for partially streamlined bikes, I see the following: "It shall be possible to see all of the rider from either side.." I guess that means that now the hands and forearms must be exposed. Making it even tougher to build a bike to conform to AMA/BUB and SCTA rules. I wonder what precipitated this change. I had been contemplating running at SCTA to see if the fully enclosed tail (not legal at AMA/BUB) would help, but now it seems I'll have to bring a jig saw with me as well.
Tom
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I wasn't able to figure out how to boldify the changes, so have sent it out to the boldifiers.com shop for matriculation. I hope to get it fixed today. Sorry - :cry:
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After a major panic attack, about hacking up my fairing, 7-g-10 refers to "naked" bikes not partial streamlined. Whew scared the crap out of me. :-D
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Tom, The wording is for A, not APS, and I do see how you are confused. The language should be the same in APS other than you cannot use clear streamlining to circumvent the rule, which someone did.
I'll call Matt to make sure the rule book has a better clarification.
Steve
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7.G.10 Open Class – Special Construction - A
Add new last paragraph:
It shall be possible to see all of the rider from either side. As viewed directly from above, it shall be possible to see all of the rider except for the legs and feet. It is forbidden to use any transparent material to avoid the application of these rules.
Doesn't "No streamlining is permitted in the open motorcycle class" cover this?
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Thanks Dan and Slim! :cheers: Anyone know what the new class American Gas Roadster is about?
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Someone thinks someone will bring out an old roadster run something besides a Chevrolet because you can't run aftermarket blocks and heads.
It remains to be seen whether an old roadster needing $5-10K in upgrades will run and old Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Cad, Mopar, etc or sell their old engine to a restorer and spend the $$ to bring it back.
Someone better have every GM part/casting # before 1974 along with all the other manufacturers before it gets out of hand like everything else does. I would have restricted valve lift to .550" or .600 and that would have helped......I wish them luck............................JD
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Someone thinks someone will bring out an old roadster run something besides a Chevrolet because you can't run aftermarket blocks and heads.
It remains to be seen whether an old roadster needing $5-10K in upgrades will run and old Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Cad, Mopar, etc or sell their old engine to a restorer and spend the $$ to bring it back.
Someone better have every GM part/casting # before 1974 along with all the other manufacturers before it gets out of hand like everything else does. I would have restricted valve lift to .550" or .600 and that would have helped......I wish them luck............................JD
Thats what it looked like to me.
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Someone thinks someone will bring out an old roadster run something besides a Chevrolet because you can't run aftermarket blocks and heads.
It remains to be seen whether an old roadster needing $5-10K in upgrades will run and old Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Cad, Mopar, etc or sell their old engine to a restorer and spend the $$ to bring it back.
Someone better have every GM part/casting # before 1974 along with all the other manufacturers before it gets out of hand like everything else does. I would have restricted valve lift to .550" or .600 and that would have helped......I wish them luck............................JD
I assume this is a class for a destroked 60's oval port BBC with .800" or more lift and 2.190's with good porting? And a hand built tunnel ram with dual quads?
Or am I way off?
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You're not way off -- you're just way out in front.
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The American Iron roadster class was put forward by Mike Spacek in answer to the question - where have all the EM entries gone? He was able to convince some voters that there are many, many of these roadsters sitting around because the cost to run one and be
competitive in the current classes is too high.
Please notice that the rules require that the entries be current with the safety rules - costly? I am unsure of how he will be able to ascertain that the engine meets his requirements beyond asking that the entrant supply supporting documentation. Mike was able to circulate a petition among roadster racers in support of this proposal, I don't think anyone that signed the petition cares about the future issues with this new class. They will be the first to scream about too many classes.
Sign me - not a fan,
DW
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The part I didn't understand is the cars ARE allowed to run now. And if they get 20 entries (ha!), only one will be the record holder -- the others will be also-rans (and I know how that feels).
I think upgrade estimates may be soft, too. And the first guy who builds a 33-34 with an almost-late-model engine will discourage the rest -- unless they just like running -- which they can now.
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My point Stan, thank you.
DW
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Okaaaay.... the new rules for motorcycles have been boldified.
... and the cars too.
Look for nice printable, downloadable PDF versions on the LR.com home page, http://www.landracing.com (http://www.landracing.com)
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The American Iron roadster class should have gone farther than just OEM heads and block. it should have included OEM rockers, intake, crank, etc. Or a claimer on the motor.
Tom G.
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The American Iron roadster class should have gone farther than just OEM heads and block. it should have included OEM rockers, intake, crank, etc. Or a claimer on the motor.
Tom G.
Why, would you run the class or just pick at it?
From someone who agrees with Dan on the future of said class.
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Why, would you run the class or just pick at it?
Someone looking for a low 2 club minimum or a future EM championship :|
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You're not way off -- you're just way out in front.
Just seems that special clause that permits big blocks into the class doubles the costs. And then some.
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Why, would you run the class or just pick at it?
Someone looking for a low 2 club minimum or a future EM championship :|
That would be fine if it was Tom running a car instead of his ..... nevermind :-o
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Okay, the record I'm running on is ~122. Typically on a rookie pass, it's my understanding that the starter wants you to take it easy, and won't okay you to run until you've demonstrated you know how to follow instructions.
Will the course steward still be asking us slower guys to keep our foot out of it on a rookie pass? While it would be rude and only serve to aggravate somebody, if I'm asked to keep it under 100 on a rookie pass and ignore that direction, and clock an otherwise clean drive at 123, am I going to get sent down? Or has the SCTA accidently codified a new minimum maximum, overruling the traditional understanding?
If I can do it in 2, I'll be happy to save the wear and tear on the car.
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I could be very wrong as it may apply only to El Mirage but I don't think you can set a record on your rookie run.
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Umm... what's with rule 3.E? Absolutely no "open cars" to run after the 2013 season? :?
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Okay, the record I'm running on is ~122. Typically on a rookie pass, it's my understanding that the starter wants you to take it easy, and won't okay you to run until you've demonstrated you know how to follow instructions.
Will the course steward still be asking us slower guys to keep our foot out of it on a rookie pass? While it would be rude and only serve to aggravate somebody, if I'm asked to keep it under 100 on a rookie pass and ignore that direction, and clock an otherwise clean drive at 123, am I going to get sent down? Or has the SCTA accidently codified a new minimum maximum, overruling the traditional understanding?
If I can do it in 2, I'll be happy to save the wear and tear on the car.
http://www.scta-bni.org/pdf/2012%20Rookie%20Orientation-Bonneville%20small.pdf
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Umm... what's with rule 3.E? Absolutely no "open cars" to run after the 2013 season? :?
no, like it says you have to have a rear floor or aft bulkhead. There were a number of cars with the driver exposed to fire coming from under the car and up into the drivers compartment from behind.
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Ahh - got it! Thanks jdincau.
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Okay, the record I'm running on is ~122. Typically on a rookie pass, it's my understanding that the starter wants you to take it easy, and won't okay you to run until you've demonstrated you know how to follow instructions.
Will the course steward still be asking us slower guys to keep our foot out of it on a rookie pass? While it would be rude and only serve to aggravate somebody, if I'm asked to keep it under 100 on a rookie pass and ignore that direction, and clock an otherwise clean drive at 123, am I going to get sent down? Or has the SCTA accidently codified a new minimum maximum, overruling the traditional understanding?
If I can do it in 2, I'll be happy to save the wear and tear on the car.
MM, the starter for your rookie run will probably be Nathan... he will tell you the throttle works both ways, to run a comfortable speed. Enjoy that run, take it easy. That is the instruction I gave Pork Pie this year as well. He was thinking he needed to run 140 on that pass and get his license upgrade all in the same pass. I told him to drive the car from one side of the course to the other and back, get the feel of the car, it was the first time he drove it. I think he went 119. I advise the same for you and every rookie, there are plenty of passes at Bonneville, not every one is a record pass, spend a couple of them driving, listening to the car, looking at the gauges, getting the "sight picture" so you know the car is going straight down the course. Don't worry about wear and tear on the car. It is a race car you are building, hopefully it will make a dozen or more runs at Speedweek, the Bockscar made 13 this Speedweek, the last 2 were record passes.
I've written this several times on this forum, look at the course before you drive it, see where the markers are taking you toward the mountains on the horizon, that is your sight picture, if you keep that in mind, you can pay attention to what is happening other than just getting between the markers.
Remember to have fun, be safe, then go fast. :cheers:
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I've written this several times on this forum, look at the course before you drive it, see where the markers are taking you toward the mountains on the horizon, that is your sight picture, if you keep that in mind, you can pay attention to what is happening other than just getting between the markers.
Remember to have fun, be safe, then go fast. :cheers:
Bob, you coached Pork Pie to a Red Hat - I won't argue with your approach.
:cheers:
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The American Iron roadster class should have gone farther than just OEM heads and block. it should have included OEM rockers, intake, crank, etc. Or a claimer on the motor.
Tom G.
Why, would you run the class or just pick at it?
From someone who agrees with Dan on the future of said class.
Mike,
I am not picking on the class at all. I am just stating my opinion which I am entitled to. If the only difference in this class is basically an OEM iron block and heads, and mechanical FI or carbs, and no data gathering, that in itself is not much different than the Gas Roadster class.
I was under the impression this was to be an entry level class that would not cost much. If one only needs to verify the block and heads but can run aftermarket everything else, what is inexpensive about that?
Tom G.
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Why, would you run the class or just pick at it?
Someone looking for a low 2 club minimum or a future EM championship :|
That would be fine if it was Tom running a car instead of his ..... nevermind :-o
Stainless,
Nope.
Mike,
You might be in for a surprise. :-o
Tom G.
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Can't wait to see the elmo minimums for the american iron class :evil:
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... it says you have to have a rear floor or aft bulkhead...
But, the first sentence of 3.E says "no open driver's compartment".
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... it says you have to have a rear floor or aft bulkhead...
But, the first sentence of 3.E says "no open driver's compartment".
Jack, that's exactly why I've never built a race car without first going to at least one event so I understood how the rules were being interpreted and enforced. Sometimes how the rules are written and how they are actually used are what appears to me to be very wide apart. This goes for most forms of racing.
Context counts! 8-) 8-)
Pete
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Okay, the record I'm running on is ~122. Typically on a rookie pass, it's my understanding that the starter wants you to take it easy, and won't okay you to run until you've demonstrated you know how to follow instructions.
Will the course steward still be asking us slower guys to keep our foot out of it on a rookie pass? While it would be rude and only serve to aggravate somebody, if I'm asked to keep it under 100 on a rookie pass and ignore that direction, and clock an otherwise clean drive at 123, am I going to get sent down? Or has the SCTA accidently codified a new minimum maximum, overruling the traditional understanding?
If I can do it in 2, I'll be happy to save the wear and tear on the car.
MM, the starter for your rookie run will probably be Nathan... he will tell you the throttle works both ways, to run a comfortable speed. Enjoy that run, take it easy. That is the instruction I gave Pork Pie this year as well. He was thinking he needed to run 140 on that pass and get his license upgrade all in the same pass. I told him to drive the car from one side of the course to the other and back, get the feel of the car, it was the first time he drove it. I think he went 119. I advise the same for you and every rookie, there are plenty of passes at Bonneville, not every one is a record pass, spend a couple of them driving, listening to the car, looking at the gauges, getting the "sight picture" so you know the car is going straight down the course. Don't worry about wear and tear on the car. It is a race car you are building, hopefully it will make a dozen or more runs at Speedweek, the Bockscar made 13 this Speedweek, the last 2 were record passes.
I've written this several times on this forum, look at the course before you drive it, see where the markers are taking you toward the mountains on the horizon, that is your sight picture, if you keep that in mind, you can pay attention to what is happening other than just getting between the markers.
Remember to have fun, be safe, then go fast. :cheers:
Stainless,
you maked me faster than I was....I drove 113 mph...and was very happy with this. :-D
I done 11 runs during Speedweek with the Bockscar...and it was very important that I had all this driving time in the Bockscar...without this seat time I wouldn't have done my two record return runs...for both I could need all the experience of the earlier runs.
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Can't wait to see the elmo minimums for the american iron class :evil:
At the last SCTA board meeting the minimum was set at 195 mph,....... if I remember correctly. :?
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Racekid,
My minimum was set at 190 and voted on by the board. Yesterday I was reminded that the original proposal included a 160 minimum which I missed when I presented for the vote. The EM minimum will be set at 160, all safety regs apply.
I agree with Tom. If the only restriction is OEM iron block and heads where is the cost savings? I think we will see this class around 210 at EM within 2 years Then the "too expensive" and "where are the entries" conversations will start again. These many, many roadsters will be put back on the jack stands until I am dumped out of a parachute. Someone's two year old son will bring this subject back up in about 20 years.
DW
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Not that I'm running DT, but I have fielded many questions about how DT works over the years:
The "engine swap allowed" changes nothing, nor clarifies.
Should have been:
1) OEM engine, OEM supercharging, is permitted without a quick change axle. Currently the A/DT, B/DT, D/DT records do not qualify as DT. They lacked engine swaps, non-OEM supercharging, or quick-changes as required by Gas Coupe.
2) Body may be from a truck that was originally gasoline. Tilt bodies permitted.
3) Engine does not have to be automotive. Marine engines allowed.
4) No American-made "gentleman's trucks", such as El Caminos and Ranchos, even if originally diesel powered, are permitted. Foreign-made models of similar design are permitted, whether gas or diesel originally.
5) Vertical exhaust is permitted/not-permitted.
6) Chop tops are permitted/not-permitted.
7) Factory 4WD/AWD must be removed or made inoperable.
These are the areas that have caused confusion. It's always been an Engine Swap Gas Coupe Class (except no El Caminos).
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The answer to a question that I don't think anyone asked.
DW
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Dan -- I think you might be wrong there. These questions used to be asked by someone who went away. Now, I guess, there's someone new asking them(?).
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Dan -- I think you might be wrong there. These questions used to be asked by someone who went away. Now, I guess, there's someone new asking them(?).
Or is it a return?
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Dan -- I think you might be wrong there. These questions used to be asked by someone who went away. Now, I guess, there's someone new asking them(?).
It's a very small world you live in. 1/2 the vehicles on earth are diesels. Most of all vehicles are less than 20 years old.
Has Ford Motorsports fielded a '34 Ford lately? They sponsored a diesel.
Why is that? :?
In any case, racing is racing. Anytime you want to run your "Street" roadster against a production licensed, smogged, insured diesel, let me know. You don't mind if steering is involved right? You can certainly whup a stock engine 3/4 ton 4x4 three ton pickup in the twisties right? It's "street" right? No, that's not fair, I have brakes. Mohave Mile, bring in on. Loser buys the entries. Fair? Or do you need a head start? Or are you a keyboard racer?
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Dan -- I think you might be wrong there. These questions used to be asked by someone who went away. Now, I guess, there's someone new asking them(?).
It's a very small world you live in. 1/2 the vehicles on earth are diesels. Most of all vehicles are less than 20 years old.
Has Ford Motorsports fielded a '34 Ford lately? They sponsored a diesel.
Why is that? :?
So they could make up a FAKE record for promotional reasons! :roll:
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Dan -- I think you might be wrong there. These questions used to be asked by someone who went away. Now, I guess, there's someone new asking them(?).
It's a very small world you live in. 1/2 the vehicles on earth are diesels. Most of all vehicles are less than 20 years old.
Has Ford Motorsports fielded a '34 Ford lately? They sponsored a diesel.
Why is that? :?
So they could make up a FAKE record for promotional reasons! :roll:
Promoting what? GM and Dodge refuse to get involved with diesel racing. It's an image problem for them. The engineers wanted to, but their bosses canned it. They help in secret when they can.
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StanBack, you have very sweet car. No intent to insult the car. Let's race. You'll win easy. It's all power to weight.
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You guys talking about this truck?
B(/DT) Hajek Motorsports B. Hajek 8/11 169.331
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/22/ford-f-250-super-duty-sets-diesel-and-biodiesel-land-speed-recor/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/22/ford-f-250-super-duty-sets-diesel-and-biodiesel-land-speed-recor/)
I can't find any references to Ford sponsorship. Of course, Ford Motorsport (no "s") was changed to Ford Racing 15 or so years ago.
Mike
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You guys talking about this truck?
B(/DT) Hajek Motorsports B. Hajek 8/11 169.331
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/22/ford-f-250-super-duty-sets-diesel-and-biodiesel-land-speed-recor/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/22/ford-f-250-super-duty-sets-diesel-and-biodiesel-land-speed-recor/)
I can't find any references to Ford sponsorship. Of course, Ford Motorsport (no "s") was changed to Ford Racing 15 or so years ago.
Mike
No, this one:
(http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ford/1202dp_180_mph_2011_ford_f250_scorpion/[/url)The truck’s final evaluation was done at Lockheed Martin’s 200-mph wind tunnel in Smyrna, Georgia, before the Super Duty was shipped to Bonneville.
Can you rent that tunnel?
At least they used a diesel pickup.
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Bug in board software for hyperlinks.
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ford/1202dp_180_mph_2011_ford_f250_scorpion/
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That is the one I was thinking of, we have discussed it here in the past.
You guys talking about this truck?
B(/DT) Hajek Motorsports B. Hajek 8/11 169.331
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/22/ford-f-250-super-duty-sets-diesel-and-biodiesel-land-speed-recor/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/22/ford-f-250-super-duty-sets-diesel-and-biodiesel-land-speed-recor/)
I can't find any references to Ford sponsorship. Of course, Ford Motorsport (no "s") was changed to Ford Racing 15 or so years ago.
Mike
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Wow. [url} is busted good.
The Hajek Ford is a perfect example of a DT truck, for that class, and congrats to them. It is a diesel pickup that has been hotrodded to go faster without serious body modifications.
However, the way rules are printed in the book, you MUST have either an engine swap or non-OEM supercharging, or a Quick Change. This is under Gas Coupe.
That's just plain dumb.
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Wow. [url} is busted good.
The Hajek Ford is a perfect example of a DT truck, for that class, and congrats to them. It is a diesel pickup that has been hotrodded to go faster without serious body modifications.
However, the way rules are printed in the book, you MUST have either an engine swap or non-OEM supercharging, or a Quick Change. This is under Gas Coupe.
That's just plain dumb.
You may think it may be dumb but it is the rules you have to play by.
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Pat: 5.F.4...typical diesel truck...engine and drivetrain swaps are permitted...In this class, all other rules will be the same as Gas Coupe and Sedan class...typical of street machines that may be purchased from any automobile dealer.
Trent: The SCTA record looks valid to me. I'm not into burning food, so I don't know about the biodiesel record.
BTW, the guy looks like he's not quite at the Poteet level, but he seems to have lots of money for racing: http://hajekmotorsports.com/ (http://hajekmotorsports.com/).
Mike
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Pat: 5.F.4...typical diesel truck...engine and drivetrain swaps are permitted...In this class, all other rules will be the same as Gas Coupe and Sedan class...typical of street machines that may be purchased from any automobile dealer.
Trent: The SCTA record looks valid to me. I'm not into burning food, so I don't know about the biodiesel record.
BTW, the guy looks like he's not quite at the Poteet level, but he seems to have lots of money for racing: http://hajekmotorsports.com/ (http://hajekmotorsports.com/).
Mike
There was one bogus claim for a made up record as well as the official stuff.
Here is the thread http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,10249.0.html
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OK, need to repair a machine. Last words from me on the thread:
True B-20 or biodiesel sold at the pump has less energy than #2 diesel. Veggy oil is lower than both. I would not be surprised if he sprayed it. It's common in diesels to spray nitrous, more so than cars.
StanBack, I'm kidding about the race. But my SCTA DT entry did drive to El Mirage, then race, then drive back, and still drives on the street, and is smogged and registered. It was my daily driver until the cage wrecked for street use.
It is still quicker 0-130mph than a ZR-1 Corvette. By a lot. And it's slow by today's standards. It's vintage now.
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I've only had it for just over 50 years. The roadster was street-driven for about 40 years. It has driven to drag races and driven home. And driven to El Mirage. It's still currently licensed and street insured. Doesn't have to pass smog. It's built now for El Mirage and Bonneville, although it's seen twisties in its days. It's fun to run the long course over 200 with a currently licensed and class legal vehicle.
On the street, it tends to blow my red hat off.
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You guy's are starting to get cranky. Viagra will do that to you.
Stan has a excuse, he is old and us old guy's tend to be cranky when we forget our Metamusil.
The rest of you need some Doggie Downers.......................... Bob
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Pat - same truck
Stan - same guy
4 Barrel Mike - I pointed out the same thing in a PM before I got to this thread
All - I doubt this will be the last we hear, unless Pat changes his name again.
DW
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Sounds like a guy in Flordia is giving him ideas, maybe a diesel powered pusher propster is coming new class DPPPPU. :evil: :roll:
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Stan, put a chin strap on it. :-D
Bob, stay away from the vet... go back on you regular meds
Pat, the only change I saw to DT was external down bars allowed... race within the rules or submit changes
Dan, if I get to Freud's BNWR I'll buy you a drink :cheers:
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Minor trim item removal is restricted to the /VGC class.
This is in 5.B.4......Isn't it ment to say "Minor trim item removal is restricted IN the /VGC class" I thought the vote was to keep door handles, hinges; etc. I thought the minor trim was nosing and decking.
As for Ameican Iron I thought Mike was nuts....but I do know where a '66 396 with a short crank is....Hummmm........JD
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... it says you have to have a rear floor or aft bulkhead...
But, the first sentence of 3.E says "no open driver's compartment".
Jack, that's exactly why I've never built a race car without first going to at least one event so I understood how the rules were being interpreted and enforced. Sometimes how the rules are written and how they are actually used are what appears to me to be very wide apart. This goes for most forms of racing.
Context counts! 8-) 8-)
Pete
not only does context count but reading the rule in it's entirety also helps. this new rule requires that all cars now have either a rear floor or bulkhead. what's so hard to understand about that? do you really think there'd be a rule outlawing open cars?
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do you really think there'd be a rule outlawing open cars?
Now that's funny. Tony :cheers:
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do you really think there'd be a rule outlawing open cars?
Now that's funny. Tony :cheers:
[/quote]
Only if the engine wasn't in front of the driver.... :evil: :-D vic
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Lets reread this again JD
The rules in these classes are identical to the respective Modified Category classes, except that only 1948 or earlier bodies with XF, XO, XXF, XXO, V4 or V4F engines are allowed. In all classes except VGC, fenders and running boards may be removed if it can be done by unbolting the fenders from the body. Pre-1949 bodies may have a 3 in. beauty chop. Pre-1949 cars shall have radiator/grille shells of the same manufacturer as the body, e.g., Ford on Ford, Chevy on Chevy, etc. Air Dams (4.CC.1) are not permitted in the Vintage Gas Coupe and Sedan classes using vintage engines. Minor trim items, door handles, exposed hinges and rain gutters may be removed in the Competition Coupe and Altered classes only. Minor trim items may be removed in the Gas Coupe classes.
In bold print the 1st sentence tells us that CC and Alt can remove a bunch of stuff. Sentence #2 tells us that /VGC can remove minor trim ONLY. This does not include the aforementioned door handles, exposed hinges, etc from sentence #1.
DW
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I must be slipping.................Pat is back with ANOTHER name change?
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I'm just trying to understand what this rule change in addressing with respect to windows...
The original roll up window hole may be closed in replacing the frameless glass window with polycarbonate
What is "the original roll up window hole"?
I am guessing that it means that we are allowed to weld a piece of steel over the factory window "slot", through which the original roll up window operated (at the top of the door)?.
I can see where that might make it easier to fabricate and fit a polycarbonate window, but I'm not sure about the meaning of this rule change.
Steve.
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If you are running in a class where flush mounted windows are not allowed the poly will be mounted to the inside of the roll up slot. Poly is usually thinner than the glass it is replacing. The resulting gap can be filled by welding in material or other means.
Same rules, more words
DW
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Gotcha.
Narrowing of the window slot is allowed, in order to close up the gap created by the thinner poly (as compared to OEM glass).
Steve.
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Sorry Dan didn't see it as a comma. I was sure what was meant but meaning something and sometimes writing it leaves things open......Thanks
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I must be slipping.................Pat is back with ANOTHER name change?
The movie quote is from Brokeback Drylake - "I can't quit you!"
:-D
I kill off my user so I won't waste time on the internet. But I actually like LSR.
My problem is most of my work is done on a computer, and via the internet. We do product testing. So I can't just turn off the web.
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Sounds like a guy in Flordia is giving him ideas, maybe a diesel powered pusher propster is coming new class DPPPPU. :evil: :roll:
The class is B/DAB = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9lSDpQ7RaY
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...
As for Ameican Iron I thought Mike was nuts....but I do know where a '66 396 with a short crank is....Hummmm........JD
When did the 502 BBC Truck block come out? This would be the cheapest way to make one with the largest possible bore to unshroud the the valves?
Roller cam, titanium rods, titanium valves, forged nitrated crank, then spin the snot out of it?
EDIT - DOH! 1980's was 502 truck block. 427/454 instead.
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"My minimum was set at 190 and voted on by the board. Yesterday I was reminded that the original proposal included a 160 minimum which I missed when I presented for the vote. The EM minimum will be set at 160, all safety regs apply." -- DW
Let's see. The record for XF/GR (flathead -- not to exceed 325") at El Mirage is 158.986.
The minimum for the new overhead class (not to exceed 372") is 160.
I don't think it will be much of a stretch to go 1.014 MPH over the smaller flathead record -- not trying the disrespect the great Jimmie Stevens motor.
Not eligible for points next year, but by the time the dozens of them get built, the results won't be pointless.
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According to the proposer there are already many cars sitting, with engines reving to run this class. No new cars need to be built.
DW
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According to the proposer there are already many cars sitting, with engines reving to run this class. No new cars need to be built.
DW
Yea right :roll:
JL222
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Then why haven't they run? Only one's the wiener.
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Stan,
The costs to run competitivly is too high.This new class will solve that issue and bring the roadsters out in mass quanities.
DW
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I can just see the masses of raoadsters showing up :-o , just curious though why they didn't limit the transmissions to vintage units as well? Tony
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Not my deal. Upwards of $7500 for a trans, pay Wayne Jesel $4500 for a valve train, on and on - where is the cost savings?
DW
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Sounds like a guy in Flordia is giving him ideas, maybe a diesel powered pusher propster is coming new class DPPPPU. :evil: :roll:
The class is B/DAB = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9lSDpQ7RaY
That is some funny shit right there!
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Sounds like a guy in Flordia is giving him ideas, maybe a diesel powered pusher propster is coming new class DPPPPU. :evil: :roll:
The class is B/DAB = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9lSDpQ7RaY
That is some funny Subaru right there!
Bet Glen didn't even know that these have running for nearly 10 years now. Low fuel consumption.
And it will make Jullienne Potatoes!
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... it says you have to have a rear floor or aft bulkhead...
But, the first sentence of 3.E says "no open driver's compartment".
Jack, that's exactly why I've never built a race car without first going to at least one event so I understood how the rules were being interpreted and enforced. Sometimes how the rules are written and how they are actually used are what appears to me to be very wide apart. This goes for most forms of racing.
Context counts! 8-) 8-)
Pete
not only does context count but reading the rule in it's entirety also helps. this new rule requires that all cars now have either a rear floor or bulkhead. what's so hard to understand about that? do you really think there'd be a rule outlawing open cars?
Blast from the past... for 2014 I'm going to propose that the word "lower" be added between "the" and "exterior". So it would read like this:
All driver’s compartments shall not be open to the lower exterior of the vehicle or track surface such that the driver is potentially exposed to dangers such as fire or debris as well as dust. A rear floor or aft bulkhead is required in all vehicles where applicable.
Does that help make it more clear that the point of the rule is to require a rear flow or aft bulkhead? Maybe "bottom exterior" would be better?
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Interesting........sidecar rule change 7.1....7.1.3.....regarding driver location..........when John Stege made his outstanding run a few years back and took our record this rule was NOT in effect....However his record was put in the book......I made note that his sidecar was NOT legal due to the fact that I had wanted to build a LSR sidecar with the driver kneeling INSIDE the outfit and was told not legal....not safe.......It appears it is NOW legal and safe.......BUT at the time of John's record run it was NOT LEGAL....and NOT SAFE.....but the record was still approved and is in the book..........Oh, well...................................................................
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Interesting........sidecar rule change 7.1....7.1.3.....regarding driver location..........when John Stege made his outstanding run a few years back and took our record this rule was NOT in effect....However his record was put in the book......I made note that his sidecar was NOT legal due to the fact that I had wanted to build a LSR sidecar with the driver kneeling INSIDE the outfit and was told not legal....not safe.......It appears it is NOW legal and safe.......BUT at the time of John's record run it was NOT LEGAL....and NOT SAFE.....but the record was still approved and is in the book..........Oh, well...................................................................
Bob,
If you were to look in one of his log books you will see where I wrote that I felt the bike did not comply with the rules at the time, I refused to inspect it and it was later inspected without any changes being made. Yes he has some great records also. :cheers:
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... it would read like this:
All driver’s compartments shall not be open to the lower exterior of the vehicle or track surface such that the driver is potentially exposed to dangers such as fire or debris as well as dust. A rear floor or aft bulkhead is required in all vehicles where applicable...
That's much better.
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... it says you have to have a rear floor or aft bulkhead...
But, the first sentence of 3.E says "no open driver's compartment".
Jack, that's exactly why I've never built a race car without first going to at least one event so I understood how the rules were being interpreted and enforced. Sometimes how the rules are written and how they are actually used are what appears to me to be very wide apart. This goes for most forms of racing.
Context counts! 8-) 8-)
Pete
not only does context count but reading the rule in it's entirety also helps. this new rule requires that all cars now have either a rear floor or bulkhead. what's so hard to understand about that? do you really think there'd be a rule outlawing open cars?
Blast from the past... for 2014 I'm going to propose that the word "lower" be added between "the" and "exterior". So it would read like this:
All driver’s compartments shall not be open to the lower exterior of the vehicle or track surface such that the driver is potentially exposed to dangers such as fire or debris as well as dust. A rear floor or aft bulkhead is required in all vehicles where applicable.
Does that help make it more clear that the point of the rule is to require a rear flow or aft bulkhead? Maybe "bottom exterior" would be better?
At the SCTA Inspectors Clinic meeting last Saturday (4/06/13), they had us pencil in "lower" in that exact place in the rule change handout that was distributed. So, I suspect the correction will be made in the 2014 rule books.