Landracing Forum
El Mirage => El Mirage Rules Questions => Topic started by: Brammofan on November 16, 2012, 09:52:47 AM
-
I just ordered the SCTA 2012 rulebook but, pending its arrival I have a question. Disclaimer - having run a couple forums of my own, I am aware that my ignorance of the general subject matter here makes me a target for ridicule, but I'm really trying hard to learn about the various classes, records, and venues. So, with that disclaimer, my question:
Is there any reason why an electric motorcycle would be entered in the Omega class rather than the E or PE class?
If it will help with the answer, here's the reason this question has come up. An electric motorcycle with an APS frame recently ran at El Mirage. When I looked at the time sheet online, I saw that it had the 'engine classification' of Omega and the body designation of APS-O (Now, I'm not sure whether the 'O' in 'APS-O' stands for Omega, or not).
My "newbie" guess is that there was a previous record for electrics that this team decided it could not beat, but they discovered that the Omega class record was beatable.
Any info or guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
-
Here's an equally ignorant answer. As far as we know it's the ONLY class for a "sit on" electric motorcycle. If we ran it with no streamlining at all or the production superbike bodywork it would be in the same class.
-
Here's an equally ignorant answer. As far as we know it's the ONLY class for a "sit on" electric motorcycle. If we ran it with no streamlining at all or the production superbike bodywork it would be in the same class.
First of all, thanks slimjim for your reply. Just to clarify, are you saying that the Omega class is the ONLY class for a "sit on" electric motorcycle?
The reason I ask is, according to a part of the rulebook (that I found online) that I'm reasonably certain that applies:
Chassis and Body Descriptions
ALTERED (A)
A: Altered is for specially constructed and purpose built race bikes.
B: INNOVATIVE AND UNIQUE DESIGN IS ENCOURAGED.
C: Aerodynamic front fairings are not allowed.
C: May use 1 or 2 engines of any design.
D: May use non-motorcycle engines. (PRIOR APPROVAL REQUIRED)
ALTERED PARTIAL STREAMLINER (APS)
Same as Altered(A) with:
A: Aerodynamic fairings allowed. The rider must be visible per the rules.
B: Modified Class motorcycles with custom APS fairings fall into APS.
C: May use 1 or 2 engines of any design.
D: May use non-motorcycle engines.
So that's why this bike was "APS" - it was definitely not a "production" model. But the "O" in "APS-O" -- is that the designation for "Omega"? If so, then I suppose my question is, why was the bike not classed as APS-E?
The rules:
ENGINE CLASSES FOR MODIFIED AND ALTERED MOTORCYCLES
7.D.4.19 Electric (E):
Same as class (PE) with unlimited design and modifications allowed.
7.D.4.20 Class Ω / Omega(O):
An engine using a thermodynamic cycle other than Otto, Two Cycle or Diesel. This class includes steam and turbine engines. Entry must comply with all applicable frame class requirements. Entrant must submit complete power plant details to the technical committee for safety evaluation at least 45 days prior to the meet.
and then, this section, which would seem to require that the electric motorcycle be designated as, well, an electric motorcycle:
7.K Electric Motorcycles
The LTA, in cooperation the NEDRA (National Electric Vehicle Drag Racing Association) has developed EV motor classes to allow for a compilation of land speed records from around the globe specific to electric powered vehicles. While we do maintain an affiliation with the NEDRA, it does not extend beyond the sharing of records.
The NEDRA rules are specific to ELECTRIC DRAG RACE VEHICLES. NEDRA members must comply with all LTA competition rules and regulations to compete at LTA sanctioned events; just as they must comply with all NHRA rules at NHRA events.
The rules below are a combination of NEDRA and LTA rules. LTA rules have been substituted where the LTA rule must be followed. Any rule on which NEDRA is mute shall be governed by the LTA rules in section 2 and 3. If any discrepancy is found between rulebooks, the LTA supersede all NEDRA rules.
NEDRA Class Validation:
While all electric vehicles will compete in an appropriate LTA class for LTA records, the EV Technical Director will certify the NEDRA class for their records. For NEDRA record certification, participants must be NEDRA members.
Electric Power Class Designation:
Electric power shall be designated in the LTA records as a fuel type: i.e. M/E-48 = Modified/Electric-48 volt.
-
Wait a minnit -- I'm cornfused. You've started the query under the El Mirage Rules thread -- and you're quoting the Loring Timing Ass'n rulebook. In which sanctioning body/venue are you interested?
-
Ah... there's my problem. :oops:
Perhaps I better wait until my SCTA rulebook arrives in the mail.
-
Ah ha! As you stated you are a newbie and therefore have made the common mistake that the organizations have some sort of rulebook consistancy. The LTA uses a modified ECTA rulebook. LTA runs 1 and 1.5 mile events on pavement. The ECTA runs 1 mile events on pavement. The SCTA runs 1.3 mile events on dirt. The SCTA-BNI and USFRA run 1, 3 & 5 mile events on salt. SCTA & USFRA use the same rulebook and record database.
The SCTA does not list the E(electric) engine class as an option. And, yes - the O stands for Omega, electric, steam, diesel, etc., any non-Otto cycle power plant.
Hope this helps,
DW
-
Thanks. Yes that does help.
I spent all morning over on the El Mirage pages of the SCTA site and was in "learn all you can" mode. I probably should have done the same at landracing.com before posting.
Thanks again.
-
I'm an electric newbie, but have both a MC and Car that run off batteries getting dressed up.
Electric classes aren't well-defined yet for the SCTA. There are max weights for cars that are way low, but no limits whatsoever on bike weights. There are no production-based classes, nor a definition of the difference between a motorcycle motor and a car motor. You can currently (har) run unlimited weight and motors on bikes. Cars are limited. Kind of backwards. There are no safety rules yet either that address the differences in technology.
The odds of getting more classes aren't good, I've never met anyone in 5 years who got a class added.
There is a lot of electric racing going on today, and lots of venues to race your electric. I'm almost done with our electric MC, but will Run For Fun, or T/O, just for kicks and to get a time-slip.
-
Pat,
Your second paragraph is full of a lot of no.There are also no entries or expressed interest in expanding the category. The exisiting weight breaks for cars are FIA mandated.
DW
-
The first part of the class description concerns the frame class.
P production - M modified production - A custom or race.
Production is showroom stock appearing - internal modifications (mostly) allowed. Partial streamlining or not doesn't factor in, as long as it was sold that way.
M and A classes are with no streamlining.
The PS modifier adds partial streamlining.
Also S streamliner, SC sidecar and SCS sidecar streamliner.
The dash separates the engine class.
P production (always gas) showroom stock appearing - internal modifications allowed.
F fuel - G gas - B blown
P pushrod - V vintage
and O omega
Don't expect rules to be changed for electric anything. Zero interest. These are car guys.
-
nevermind
-
Pat,
Your second paragraph is full of a lot of no.There are also no entries or expressed interest in expanding the category. The exisiting weight breaks for cars are FIA mandated.
DW
I respect your opinion Dan, and I know you mean well.
The FIA rules aren't Elmo rules. A serious 1100lb 4 wheeled electric racer can be made under FIA, but not SCTA.
The FIM rules are weight based as well, but the 3-4 MC electric classes aren't weight based.
Nothing I posted was incorrect based on the RTFM.
-
Pat,
My point was that when the car, non-Otto cycle, classes were put together well, actually combined, the decision was made to base them on a weight allowance. The rules makers at the time had no direction as to which way to go. The final decision was to use the International standard. I am aware that there are differences between cars and bikes. The bike Omega classes were to be based on a single chassis configuration. I have no idea why we are where we are now.
DW
-
I have no idea what the classes are in other sanctioning bodies since I'm only interested in running with the SCTA for now. I've heard that our bodywork wouldn't be legal with the FIM or AMA rules anyway so if you planned on running both you should look into that. I think the FIM/AMA record is around 190mph (I'm guessing here) and the SCTA record is 215mph. At this time we have no plans to run the BUB event but we are going to be at speedweek.
-
Pat,
My point was that when the car, non-Otto cycle, classes were put together well, actually combined, the decision was made to base them on a weight allowance. The rules makers at the time had no direction as to which way to go. The final decision was to use the International standard. I am aware that there are differences between cars and bikes. The bike Omega classes were to be based on a single chassis configuration. I have no idea why we are where we are now.
DW
Fair enough. While electric racing didn't get big until recently, it has been going on for over 20 years from what I read. I'm so new to the game, that I didn't even race an electric car until this month. I was impressed.
It's going to get a lot bigger, and if it migrates to the LSR in number, you are going to have actual production cars running against streamliners, and 4000lb motorcycles running against bikes with license plates. The more weight, the more HP. Battery + motor weight = HP. Unlike cars, there is no displacement, fuel, or supercharging. There are 2 ways to deal with it. Volts of battery and weight. Volts is like displacement, and weight is like fuel/supercharging. I can run 200v, but without a lot of batteries, it can't make big power. I can run 48v, but at a fixed weight, can't go very fast.
At some future point, it will have to be either be adjusted, or just reduce electric entries. Few can afford a full unlimited streamliner project.
There are a lot of experts in this field and I'm not one of them yet. If classes get altered in this area, you need to find somebody with experience, but won't cherry pick rules for their team.
IMO, the DT class was a similar issue. Minitrucks, unibodies, miditrucks, and full sized trucks run in the same class with the same engines. You'd have to be an idiot to run a full sized truck. But some people will run what they like to drive, regardless of class structure. I don't buy or build a racecar or bike for a specific class, never have. I buy what I like, and dial up the performance.
It is refreshing to see that many of the later DT entries have been full sized trucks. It shows I'm not unique in that school of thought.
While it might be a Band of Idiots, they have fun. Hopefully electric racers will see it the same way. Running with a major handicap just to have fun.
I think that is the most common bond in sportsman level racing, to have fun regardless. Not number of wheels, body shape, or locomotion. Adrenaline.
-
Thoughts:
Cars/bikes get a displacement check.
Making a frame as light as possible to load it as heavy as possible can be a hazard.
Having the weight rule based on the battery weight would be a displacement check.
I will lend a 10,000lb precision portable scale to the SCTA (permanent loan, as long as it's used for electrics) if they decide to do battery weight, not vehicle weight. It's very accurate at all weights, and easily portable. It will weigh a tire to 1 lb accurately, but also weigh 10k. When somebody sets a record, they would have to remove the battery and weigh it in impound/tech. It's AC powered, but I can make it DC powered.
If it becomes unnecessary, I want it back. Located in Norco, weighs about 100lb IIRC.
-
Pat,
Your point about Production cars running against streamliners is valid when the class is weight based. Up until recently, and the interest is still way low, the technology has not been a LSR hot spot. The increase in electric and Hybrid vehicles in the public will no doubt spur interest. Up until now no one has presented or asked for modified rules. We should be pro-active but it is difficult to get management involved when they have in excess of 50 years experience and are pretty much settled in their ways.
I recently recieved an email from England from a group of Le Mans type racers who want to run at Bonneville. Their question was about where would their sports car with diesel, Hybrid power and KERS techology fit. Unfortunatly, I had to inform them that Hybrid power sources are allowed in Production classes only where the green power is OEM. KERS, not allowed, diesel runs against gas if no class for the fuel exists. This is not a formula to move LSR into the next decades.
The answer? I don't have it, nor do I have the background to make it happen. All in all, we are what we are. A bunch of hot rodders designing, building and driving our dreams and there is nothing wrong with that.
DW
-
Pat,
Your point about Production cars running against streamliners is valid when the class is weight based. Up until recently, and the interest is still way low, the technology has not been a LSR hot spot. The increase in electric and Hybrid vehicles in the public will no doubt spur interest. Up until now no one has presented or asked for modified rules. We should be pro-active but it is difficult to get management involved when they have in excess of 50 years experience and are pretty much settled in their ways.
I recently recieved an email from England from a group of Le Mans type racers who want to run at Bonneville. Their question was about where would their sports car with diesel, Hybrid power and KERS techology fit. Unfortunatly, I had to inform them that Hybrid power sources are allowed in Production classes only where the green power is OEM. KERS, not allowed, diesel runs against gas if no class for the fuel exists. This is not a formula to move LSR into the next decades.
The answer? I don't have it, nor do I have the background to make it happen. All in all, we are what we are. A bunch of hot rodders designing, building and driving our dreams and there is nothing wrong with that.
DW
Here's the thing. Some people love lakesters. Some love streamliners. SOME love Roadsters.
I hang out with a group of 15,000 diesel racers, I've shaken hands with over 1000 of them. Before, it was a group of 40,000 Camaro and Vette racers.
We love our diesels as much as anyone loves their Roadster. We love our F-bodies and Vettes as much the same.
Now, much to the dismay of my existing friends, I'm heading towards electrics.
I fell in love with LSR in 2008, even though my background isn't LSR. My friends think it's dumb. :-D
These electric racers are as rabid as any Roadster guy. Given the chance, they would flood LSR the first time they go. It's like crack cocaine.
Make the field, they will come. Some dumb Kevin Cosner movie? It's true though.
I would not have run LSR if there weren't a class for my truck to run. The class was there, so I ran, and loved it.
It remains the only truck vehicle in the world that has run in sledpulling, drag racing, and LSR. And won.
Sorry for the Hijack!! :evil:
-
We're hearing a lot of talk about rule structural changes from someone who, I am told, hasn't met their obligations to their racing organization.
-
The class exists already and there really aren't enough electric anything entries to justify making a bunch of new classes. Here are all the Bonneville Omega records for motorcycles that I know of.
APS-O Paul Thede Lighting Motors Lighting 08/11 215.960
M-O Saline E-Solex E-Solex 08/11 20.055
MPS-O Saline E-Solex E-Solex 08/11 19.893
SCS-O Saline Elecktik AGN1 08/12 98.0
Looks to me like a Brammo could come clean house in the M classes.
-
LSR has roots that go waaaay back.
Despite the technology that is making killer speeds, we still love the flathead.
We cherish a technology that has been dead longer than most of the racers have been alive.
Electric? Go ahead, tell me how many pure electric vehicles you saw yesterday. In the last week? Month?
The sales are abysmal because no one wants them.
If you guys want to race, the omega class is there for you. Don't expect any interest for the near future. Or distant future either.
If you have hung out at the timing trailer for a run by Fast Freddie or Teague and feel that nitro vibration go right through you, that's excitement.
Make the field, they will come.
It doesn't work that way. Bring the vehicles in enough numbers and then we will talk about making a field for you.
-
We're hearing a lot of talk about rule structural changes from someone who, I am told, hasn't met their obligations to their racing organization.
You have no idea what a Private Message is, do you?
No, the Road Runners insulted my wife right from her first event. Lack of class.
Didn't you notice she stopped talking to you misogynists? Guess not.
I was stupid not to quit then. Actually, I was stupid not to flatten the prrick.
-
We're hearing a lot of talk about rule structural changes from someone who, I am told, hasn't met their obligations to their racing organization.
You were lied to. Nuff said. You have a PM. I would not read it if I were you.
EDIT: Just ignore it. My fault for not taking action when I should have.
PS - Any board with class forbids private message to be read to others. Any moderator who is good at running a website won't do it. Check our site. You get banned for it.
Do you want to tap my phone also?
To the readers, anything you say to Jim Kitchen in private isn't.
-
"PS - Any board with class forbids private message to be read to others."
All I know is what we were told at our meeting about missed patrols. Feel free to straighten us out about that. I think maybe you got a pair of noids.
-
Looks to me like a Brammo could come clean house in the M classes.
The thing about the M-Ω records is that they were done on a production based electric moped
for someone to run against that record, they would have to run a bike of which there were more than 500 produced
This somewhat limits what can be run and it is also why most of the bikes that run Ω are A-Ω, APS-Ω, S-Ω or SCS-Ω
G
-
Could a mod clean up the non electric posts?
Thanks!
-
Could a mod clean up the non electric posts?
Thanks!
Every once in a while somebody shows up that is severely out of sync with the rest of us.
Yes, we are a highly critical bunch and VERY opinionated.
That doesn't mean you can request the above. That never happens.
Conversations go off topic all of the time. Cranky, out of line comments happen. Some have been banned here. (Where are you oh Propster?)
I've read every one of your posts. You're a smart guy. So are we. I certainly wouldn't compare anything going on here to other forums.
I've been hammered a number of times. I have an attitude too. (Nothing like Kent, mind you. :-o)
Sit back and enjoy the ride. Keep posting.
-
We arrived at 6am with everything to do patrol and rescue. We did what we were told to do at the start. If anyone would have mentioned to retrieve cones prior to the end of racing we would have brought the right stuff and got er dun quick. That's not what occurred. We both ran dual staff at the checkpoint from before the race started until after it was over.
However that misunderstanding has nothing to do with electric racers.
I offered to do the cones after I learned it was an unspoken duty after at a future event. I won't make the same error twice. If you belong to an Elmo club and want somebody to pickup all cones Pm me and I'll do it. I've set up and retrieved thousands of cones when it was needed. Not just SCTA. Mostly for other racing.
-
I'm in Florida with fat fingers. Anyone who needed to slam me should have done it earlier. At least nobody has said I don't help other racers and I drive like a chi head (going off course or other stupid driving).
Find anyone who says I don't pull my weight or drive dangerously.
I'm 2000 miles from home. I will continue this later.
-
"PS - Any board with class forbids private message to be read to others."
All I know is what we were told at our meeting about missed patrols. Feel free to straighten us out about that. I think maybe you got a pair of noids.
I belonged to an Elmo club for 5 years, 2008-2012.
I worked 4 patrol sessions.
I did about 10 course walks and picked up a lot of debris.
One time my foot was swollen to double it's size and purple. The first doc said I was fine. Later it was found I had a broken shinbone. Yeah, that was painful but I did it, and found glass and pieces of metal on the track.
I put reflective tape on the barriers after someone drove through them. Nobody could make a decision, so I did it because it was needed.
I was asked to wind Bville wire, so other than a 30 min break, I worked hard at it and pulled my weight.
I did a course prep when asked.
I pickup up cones twice. Once when not asked, another when I was asked.
This exceeds the "one duty a year" by over double.
But in October, after the race patrols, I did not pick up cones, but I worked 2 patrol duties. Nobody told I was going to be picking up cones before Sunday, or Sunday morning, or at the patrol meeting, nor was it printed on the patrol instructions. We found out at the end of the race, but there was no way to haul the trailer 30 minutes after the event. So I made a stupid decision to leave. I apologized profusely to multiple people, and asked that I could make up it.
Apologies aren't accepted. Repair is not accepted.
I've picked up thousands of cones in the last 13 years of "cone" type racing courses, and laid out courses. Elmo has just a few cones.
When a very dedicated and well-liked SCTA member publishes that I don't work, it hurts.
Even though I've tried to make up for it, that's not going to fly. I'm sorry again.
It appears that the story has been spread to other clubs, so now I guess I'm out of the game. Nobody wants a lazy racer who won't work.
That's not who I aim, and never have been. I've organized complete events, set up schools for new racers, and worked hundreds of events in my racing hobby.
I'm told I'm not the kind of person that LSR is a good match for. Yeah, I can accept that. But I'm not lazy, I'm a very good (and safe) racer, and I have always helped other racers of all kinds when needed.
So I guess this is goodbye. No clubby, no raccy.
I don't mind that, but I do mind people who say I'm unprofessional. The racing community is actually under 1% of car guys. It's a small world.
I screwed up, but it was not something I could fix that day after the race. Both of us had to abandon important work to attend, and both had problems afterwards because we did not have 12 hours free, but worked our duty because we promised we would.
Again, if someone would have mentioned the cones at any time before the race, we would have done it.
PS - I apologize for hijacking this new racer's thread, but perhaps this is important to all racers. Ask a LOT of questions prior to leaving to attend any events. And I apologize ripping Jim a new one, that was immature, I don't think well when I'm hurt.
-
Every year there is a list of club duties published that have been approved by the clubs and their Reps. If you belong to a club they pass them out before the first meet of the year. They assign those duties to the members and you should know when you go to the meet if you have assigned duties. :roll:
-
Every year there is a list of club duties published that have been approved by the clubs and their Reps. If you belong to a club they pass them out before the first meet of the year. They assign those duties to the members and you should know when you go to the meet if you have assigned duties. :roll:
Correct. Every year I did exactly what was asked of me, and then some. I was told Patrol, PM, October. I did Patrol AM and PM. At no time did anyone tell me "Cones" until 30 minutes after the event, and there was no way to use the cone trailer. You would think since I was contacted 3 times prior to the event, that the subject would be mentioned so I'd be ready to do it. And we would not have told our wives we would be home before dark to fix problems at home if we knew.
Roll all the eyes you like.
Seems like you folk believe we didn't work the patrol all day, nor call in problems. That is incorrect. Nor were we requested to assist at the accident even though we had the equipment and training. Not just a single vehicle and a fire bottle and some gloves.
TIP: If Patrol is actually recovering cones after the event, spend $2 and print that on the Patrol instructions. Spend 10 seconds and mention it during the Patrol meeting. Heck, perhaps put it in the Elmo Procedure?
Like I said, I'm not a good fit for this kind of organization. I'm neither a mind reader, nor do I assume everybody is perfect. At work, I make sure we always a backup plan, because I can't tell a customer their work is not ready because something broke. It doesn't work that way in real life. Nor do I fire people because they are human. We have exact procedures for when things screw up, or I'd be out of business 20 years ago.
In order for us to screw up a job, 3 people and two machines must fail exactly the same. After 30,000 jobs this has not happened. It's a math thing.
More importantly this should have never been a point of discussion in somebodies tech thread.
But here's a question:
Which is worse:
1) Running off course because you can't see the track and refuse to lift the pedal.
2) Blowing out the back door, because you didn't walk the course.
3) Injuring someone in the pits because you do not know how to tow a vehicle.
4) Deliberately running an illegal entry to get an advantage over the other racers.
5) Missing part of a duty because you weren't told.
The answer is #5.
-
The class exists already and there really aren't enough electric anything entries to justify making a bunch of new classes. Here are all the Bonneville Omega records for motorcycles that I know of.
APS-O Paul Thede Lighting Motors Lighting 08/11 215.960
M-O Saline E-Solex E-Solex 08/11 20.055
MPS-O Saline E-Solex E-Solex 08/11 19.893
SCS-O Saline Elecktik AGN1 08/12 98.0
Looks to me like a Brammo could come clean house in the M classes.
I'm in that list next edition on my Zero S 2012. I doubt Brammo will be doing much of anything unless they actually put the bikes up for sale which they havent since they announced them in 2010. If I could break the ton on my 2012 Zero, brammos production bike probably wont stand up to the 2013 Zero after I get my hands on it. If Brammo is even starting to deliver in 2013.