Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Moxnix on October 14, 2012, 10:38:48 PM
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A build diary. Hmm. Does that mean I have to stop sucking wind and complete a project? Always thought it would be a bike of some sort, long, low, with all the best elements of properly going over 2 with a big guy and four underhead camshafts working pushrods I could get from (now) former chief bike inspector Tom out at the BNI meets, Jack D. via email, and looking at what bikes that made big numbers in past decades from S&S, etc.
It was the trip to BUB that did it. That, and a business opportunity to continue with a diesel aircraft two-stroke with turbocharging program.
Category 1, Group B3, Division C, Class to be determined by engine size, Type 2: forced induction.
Now, to take the collection of scribblings on restaurant napkins and index cards, engineering tablets and the occasional brain fart written down on a snippet of paper while driving forth and back from the salt flats, run them through the cerebral grinder and come up with a chassis. Long, low, and roomy enough for a 6' plus galoot to have an iced latte cup holder close at hand, hence up-sized from the garden variety sarcophagus that cuts the wind muchy goody.
I stopped in Salina, UT, to ogle the belly tank of our man Elmo Rodge, thinking a bike chassis running under the back cover would work a treat. Or, with single wheel forward, a bolt in trike system w/ belt drive. Hmm, still a lot of food for thought being digested on that route.
And then, and then, and then that red TR6 with front wheel drive at World Finals gave me pause for thought (nod, nod, wink, wink to Stan Back when he stopped by the Landracing.com trailer and took time for a chin wag on said subject).
Now one finds oneself considering one of the great hordes of unfinished Bede 5D projects littering garages and barns across the purple mountains and fruited plain. Build a legal cage to fit.
But, the front part of the cycle-car will house, under an aero front of undecided nature and design, an fwd with Hayabusa or some such turbocharged motorcycle engine between cockpit and front end.
Of course, if the air-cooled aircraft boxer motor gets far enough along, then it gets the engine compartment. Of the three in development, 260 hp is the largest air-cooled model. The already certified 450 hp drone motor developed for the guv'mint is better held back for a light-ish helicopter as I'd like to see a redesign and balance the crank w/o tungsten slugs.
Well, there it is. As soon as I sweep the remnant webcast audio parts off my drafting table the doodles will appear on paper, though I expect to upgrade to new design software from what's been on the on the iMac since Methuselah.
If I don't post for awhile, it's cause I'm out earning a living. But ideas on a chassis will be welcome and considered. Blatant insults will be taken to heart and I'll throw my hands in the air, stop work, and wander to a corner seat to drink my Missouri red plonk while feeling sorry for myself. No, I'll just crawl back in my sanctum santorum and keep figgerin' the adds and take aways.
I was going to call the first, now abandoned, M/C project, "Natty Bumpo" with a nod to James Finemore Cooper. Now, I dunno. Maybe MoxNix Cycle-car until it's time to fill in the entry paperwork and add decals.
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As a newbie to the boards, itll be interesting to see a build like this from the start. Im hoping that maybe by this time ill be able to start my own build diary. Looking foward to future updates Mox.
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Just DO IT 8-) 8-) 8-)
Show us the paper napkin.....make it a board-build :wink:
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I've a big white board on the wall.
Mandeola transaxle might work well with the air cooled boxer flat 4.
The wife has plans for the (my) garage. I think I'll do the build in Mukilteo, WA.
Firefox sent me a pop-up this morning to go buy a new computer as mine, operated by running two sticks together, will not run newer version of their software. My designer bought himself a new one last fall. Gotta' keep up with the contract help.
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http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Codes_et_reglements/RECORDS_DU_MONDE_Eng.pdf (http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Codes_et_reglements/RECORDS_DU_MONDE_Eng.pdf)
Group B3 Cycle-cars
3-wheeled vehicles making three tracks on the ground forming a complete integral unit and having accommodation for a rider and
passenger.
A cycle-car is a motorcycle with 3 wheels differing from a Sidecar in that 2 of the wheels are mounted on the same geometric horizontal
axis. These may be on the front or rear of the vehicle and shall ensure stability of the vehicle.
Steering must be by handlebars with a minimum length of 500 mm or by a wheel with a minimum diameter of 300 mm.
The passenger can be by the side of the rider but not necessarily in the same frontal alignment. He can also be placed behind the rider.
If bodywork does not enclose the wheels, wheels must be protected by mudguards.
Category I
Motorcycles propelled by the action of one wheel in contact with the ground.
Ok, that is where Group B3 is listed. But not in the records.
That would be like a Can-Am Spyder with a single rear wheel drive and two front steering wheels.
http://www.fim-live.com/en/sport/world-records-attempts/events/ (http://www.fim-live.com/en/sport/world-records-attempts/events/)
In the list of records Group B3 is listed as Category II "Motorcycles propelled by the action of two wheels in contact with the ground."
There is a record listed for a Lehman Trike in partially streamlined. That is a two rear wheel driven vehicle.
Under streamliner BuddFab is listed with no name, speed, date, only BuddFab. And that's a sidecar, not a cycle car.
No other records are listed. Looks like a world record is yours no matter what you run.
It looks like it has to be a Category II to drive both wheels fwd or rwd. Category I drives a single wheel.
In the rules the only group in Category II is A1 Solo Motorcycles. In the records the only group in Category II is B3 Cyclecars.
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Moxnix I live 10 miles from Mukilteo, WA. May meet u face to face before we meet on the Salt.
FREUD
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Let the sparks start flying. I vote for building it in Webster, so I can come by and help.
Steve.
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Hmmm, Webster close enough to where the FlatCad is for me to help too!
Good luck with the build! :cheers:
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Dean, I've got my 10-year old BUB FIM Classification Flowchart, so I'm a bit late on progress from my original interest.
Looking at 2014, have the FIM contact info for to whom pictures and progress reports will be sent so as not to have to re-invent the wheel.
Double the traction for a FWD/fwd/front wheel drive and steering just seems prudent compared to a single rear wheel drive vis a vis Morgan, etc.
Looking at a front module for the engine and drive train, center cockpit module for the cockpit, and rear module for the wheel and crisp aero off the back, sorta like a pub dart with a set of covered wheels out front, airfoil over the suspension.
Open record. Yes. But if it comes out well, you and I will both know if it's actually fast or just another minimum for the next racer to surpass with less cubes. Besides, I'll just run it, gun it, see what it can do, hose it off at the truck stop and drop it off on loan at the new museum to be critiqued by people far more experienced than I. Perhaps I'll learn something.
Freud, I'd like to do it in Mukilteo, so I don't get yelled at here at the maison de sante (crazy house), and drag my oldest out for a bit of trout fishing on occasion.
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Re-reading build diaries. Back in a few weeks.
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The FIM wants to see pictures of your ride a couple of months before the meet. There also is a lot of paperwork and a physical with a stress test and an electroechocardiogram. A competitor needs to ask Linnea for an entry packet, last year's is OK, and read it completely. Then it is a good idea to plan a schedule so everything happens when it should.
My best advice is to keep everything real simple and work on one thing at a time. As an example, at first I would build the rolling chassis and get it sorted with a totally standard NA engine and minimal electronics. This might take a year or two for a busy person with a life besides racing. Then I would work on the motor. The trick is to develop the chassis, add power until more chassis work is needed, then work on getting the chassis right, then add more power, etc.
It took me several years until I was organized enough to run FIM and I have a relatively simple build.
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Bo, thanks for the advice. That's why I'm thinking 2014, and not sure I'll be the driver, anyway. I've considered an easier route to expedite progress, but it would mean a single rear drive wheel. Luckily, all the threads that can keep one up late perusing have so much reader/racer input, a prudent approach may have all the little things noted and taken care of by default. FIM has the extra hoops, certainly, but no other organization offers the cycle-car class. This project will have mulling and conjecture in design, as a distraction from livelyhood responsibilities and obligations, I'll just have to see what shakes out. Motorcycle engine, NA, is a given, unless the diesel is ready.
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Max, please note that the ECG requirement is for racers over 50 years old. Also note that you must be a member of (whichever) countries' sanctioning organisation - in this case, the American Motorcyclist Ass'n. For help other than what you'd get from Linnea you can contact FIM Charlie (Charles Hennekam, Switzerland, but very good English) at charles.hennekam (at) fim.ch. Charlie is ofter out of the office for weeks at a time, but he will be able to help in many ways. He attends the Shootout - and I imagine he goes to Bub's, too.
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Thanks. A different chap was at BUB doing the FIM oversight. Can't race at BUB w/o AMA membership and an AMA sticker on your bike, too, so that's a given. If I send progress photos and such to Drew, here in the States, I believe he will cover the Swiss end getting it. Build for SCTA, add the FIM requirements, and feel the vehicle is skookum chuck safe, take the stress test, then pay the entry. Or, find a driver under 50. Less than two years. So little time. No kidding.
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Max, this is long overdue.
Imagine the unimagined, and make it move.
You've been serving the LSR community for a long time. Go belly up to the buffet.
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Chris, tomorrow I've got a business meeting at the corner of walk and don't walk that will either be a waste of time or allow me to escape the clutches of she-who-thinks-she-must-be-obeyed. If it goes well, I can perhaps move on with life and reclaim my former stature as a hobbyist, rather than this prolonged indentured servitude about which there was nothing written on our Canadian marriage license. When I get back to having hobby cars for which I answer to no one, maybe buy another airplane, and travel on my schedule, not that of senior management.
And, I can have the project in the safe hands of a guy in Mukilteo, so she never sees it. Hoo and rah.
Do you want this audio stuff sent to your house or the store?
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Addy sent. I've got an FM receiver put aside, and I think I found a new mixer.
Chris
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FIM Charlie...does not do the BUB Meet........Are you planning on using a passenger????? About 30 years ago I build a Cycle-car for a Brit using a Vincent engine for power.....ran fast and straight on UK. airport runways......
if I recall at 148mph..............................................................................
That is faster than most solo bike Vincents..........except for a few..............
Good luck with the project.....................................................................
PS> make the driver and passenger ride in a kneeling position....makes for a low profile........(passenger behind the driver)
PS>PS. Make it with a fairly long wheelbase.....for safety..........................
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Bob, long is a given, and I'd like to avoid single rear wheel drive. My penchant for & experience with Morgans has me thinking it would only be a solo job. My old stuff was pretty flexible in the chassis. S&S may be arranging to have one at BUB in the future as they supply the X-Wedge for the new version out of England. Hadn't thought of passenger seating, until you mentioned it. Two would add some ballast for traction, no question. A kneeler-cycle-car, now that is something to chew on.
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Interesting project. Sorry I didn't meet you at BUB, but it's hard to identify someone by an avatar of an old Morgan!
Two wheels up front solves a large problem compared to a motorcycle, which always seems to have the front wheel in front of your face. This means the top of your helmets is about 36" off the ground (because the minimum wheel size is 15") if you want to be able to see where you're going (very important). I'm thinking you want a nice low profile motor, like BMW, Gold Wing (can you make those things run?), or even an inline four if you can get it laid back or maybe sideways with shaft drive to the front. BAK says make it a kneeler; maybe go one step further and make it a lay-down, but you will need to add a chest rest and a chin rest to keep your head up. Keep us posted.
Tom
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Max, the USFRA lets all sorts of odd vehicles run. Maybe there might be some opportunities there.
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Sorry I missed you, Concrete. I was on a short leash behind the radio announcer's trailer. Bo, I like the WoS meet, but who knows. FIM has the class for cycle-car and if I focus on that, it's more affordable. By the way, the world's fastest sidecar, Hayabusa powered, is on eBay under race vehicles, 224 top speed so far. Hmmm . . .
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you could do worse :wink:
not hard to convert that to cyclecar if you didn't like the sidecar
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Sorry I missed you, Concrete. I was on a short leash behind the radio announcer's trailer. Bo, I like the WoS meet, but who knows. FIM has the class for cycle-car and if I focus on that, it's more affordable. By the way, the world's fastest sidecar, Hayabusa powered, is on eBay under race vehicles, 224 top speed so far. Hmmm . . .
Found that one, interesting sub-section to peruse.
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"Max, the USFRA lets all sorts of odd vehicles run. Maybe there might be some opportunities there."
For what record? They don't run FIM and the SCTA does not have a class for the configuration.
DW
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If you goal is to someday run the Diesel..............consider the Gold Wing...........BACKWARDS
Fairly narrow wheelbase for a frontend with single rear steering..........it would handle like a tail-wheeled airplane. Recline in front of the motor or kneel / lay over it. I'm older than you, but I'm offering to ride (drive) the trike. Slender tire profile all around. The hard decision and engineering will be the front drive for one or two wheels.
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The eBay item would be interesting to convert to rwd, 2 rear wheels, enclosed, as long as it's not delegated to a trike class. I'd like to see the front end, likely an Earles, which would work quite well for my needs. Coupla' Goodyears of appropriate size and Bob's yer uncle. If it passes FIM scrutiny.
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I think a vehicle with 3 wheels leaving 3 sets of tracks would be considered a trike right?
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Hey.....I got a fast sidecar for sale at half that price.....can also be made into Cycle-car
By the way......rear wheel steering does not work....been there.....
Our sidecar outfit is going up for auction this comming Jan. 2013........................
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"Fairly narrow wheelbase for a frontend with single rear steering"
Not allowed under SCTA car rules. I did not research the bike side. As mentioned, does not work for LSR.
DW
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Jason...at Hellcat Customs made a very interesting "cycle-car" ....3 wheels (2 on the front....) and it can be leaned into the turns like a solo bike.....great engineering...
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DW is correct....not safe and does not work....we tried it with a roadracing sidecar outfit......if I recall......it was also tried in a LSR car, without success....... I believe FIM does not allow for rear wheel steering................................................
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Having driven a forklift, rear wheel steering would be of no interest. As long as two drive wheels in the rear are acceptable, front with steering or rear without, it gets interesting. When Bob put his sidecar up as an option months ago, I was still living in pushrod land. But, as a reluctant acknowledgement of horsepower and longevity, the "dark side" has the answers. And, an engineer who I work with used to race Suzukis. The plod (sic) thickens.
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Rear steering doesn't even work well in aircraft. That's why tricycle gear is much more popular. Ask a pilot of "conventional" geared aircraft about ground loops. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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My PA 16 Clipper up on the Yukon, I called it the "ground loop special."
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Just in my mailbox from Germany - the October issue of Oldtimer Markt has an 8 page article about the SIMA-Violet Cycle cars! Now these are 4 wheelers.
Michael
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Great article. Many of the early cycle cars in the US were also 4 wheels, light and inexpensive until mass production by Ford and such drove the cost of full size down. The FIM rule requires 3 wheel tracks, R, L and center, for record attempt vehicles. PM me your address and I'll mail a postcard of a fatal car crash in Granite Falls circa 1905, which I found in my garage this morning but will have to look for as I was packing things up to ship to Mukilteo.
People think of Morgan and the handful of imitators using M/C engines like Triking or Citroen based units. For a record, this are too short or too slow.
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There is a great Cycly Car thread over on the HAMB max
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Two wheels in the front with front wheel drive would be a lot harder to spin than the other way. A spin would be a bad thing on a trike. They are easy to flip upside down.
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It's gotta be like a liner or long lakester, fr or rr drive. And low. Low as possible. The fwd is possible w/ a bit of thinking, and an M/C engine. Still in the thinking and scribbling stage, but interesting options are coming into focus.
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The old rear bodywork from Brant Wright and Speranza WAS for sale a while back. Would be perfect for you.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,10796.0.html
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Why not make it long enough to add a second rear wheel? That way you could run as a FIM 3-wheeler and as an SCTA 4-wheeler ("car") streamliner.
Mike
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FIM cycle car sounds like a great project! We ran a 500cc car in 1970 that people thought was a 3 wheeler as the rear wheels were only 8inches apart. The basic design might still work well as a 3 wheeler, maybe better as you could close in the rear to an edge instead of the "Kamm" effect rear we used. Handling was good with smooth salt and not so good on rough salt. :-( I made a basic mistake in not having suspension and you need to force the CG down as low as possible as well as having the front axle run a very stiff anti roll bar. I would also run some extra ballast under the front axle to bring the lenghwise CG as far forward as possible. We ran 137 with a NA 500 Triumph flat track motor with about 48hp so the basic design works.
I will add some photos of the model and the car to give you some idea of the shape:
First the scale model which was slightly different from the completed car,
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/bubbamatt/Project-500-001.jpg)
This is the car before paint showing the fiberglass body.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/bubbamatt/Project-500-13.jpg)
This is a direct side shot at Bonneville:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/bubbamatt/Bonne-Project-500-012.jpg)
This shot shows the blunt rear which would not happen with only 1 rear wheel.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/bubbamatt/Bonne-Project-500-011.jpg)
Hope this gets some thoughts going, sounds like a fun project.....and fast! :-D
Matt Guzzetta
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More food for thought, thanks all. I remember photos of Matt's car, it's a very efficient shape, no question.
Friday the wife said she had a crew coming over to move things to storage from MY garage. Saturday they showed, I wasn't through grabbing, packing and stuffing my various important things into cubby holes, cracks and the garden shed. Good grief, I had my hands on that postcard last week and today it's prolly in the storage unit. Sorry Schruiber, I'll have to have an expedition to the storage locker asap. Now, how it is they left the lazy boy recliner, work bench and tools, and a double bed w/ matresses tells me I am going to find myself exiled to Siberia at some point. Please Brer' Fox, don't throw me in the briar patch . . .
There is room on the 20x20 floor space to loft a frame, and have a Wayno-style plywood rotisserie. When I stopped in Salina, UT, to see Wayne's tanker, I like the roominess, the "old" look, and the head scratching started on how to make it a cycle car with one wheel steering up front, my "pub dart" concept in my already swimming coco. A long back section added w/ all that's needed to hang an engine and (perhaps) belt drive couple of rear wheels on an enclosed rear axle. It's early in the game, so thinking this way and that way is allowed. A tank wouldn't look so good w/ a scabbed in forward section for engine and front drive. But, front drive will, indeed, have me more confident regarding spin problems, especially in a turbo set up that brings power on in a whoop.
My drafting table was removed from the garage. Okay, time to upgrade the office computer to something fancy with better design capabilities, since the iMac is so old I'm getting notices it will no longer accept Firefox updates. Plus, I need to be able to work remotely with an engineer across the river on diesel engines, so spending money on new tech is always one of the secrets to happiness.
For now, I'll gnaw on Matt's photos, thank you kindly for posting, it takes me back to the stretched BD 5D shape. Tman, the HAMB section on cycle cars is full of good stuff.
Thanks all. Time to wring hands and gnash teeth, and do a little work in the real world on the side.
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Matt, thanks for the photos of your "3-wheeler" we are running the ShopGirls car in a layout like that for the Shell Eco-Marathon; car is about 9 feet long. Any chance you have aphoto of the blue and white streamliner in this photo?
Herr Moxnix - sending you the scanned article about the old cycle cars this morning via pm
Thanks,
Michael
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Viele Danke.
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Yes, thanks for the PDF, Herr Schreiber. My first accomplishment today was to print out the 73 pages if FIM rules for 2012. And remind myself of the shape that works well in some avenues.
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Does this mean the build will be fuelled by Guinness??? :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Does this mean the build will be fuelled by Guinness??? :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
Why not? All the rest of us have a Team Beer! :cheers: :-D
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Matt, thanks for the photos of your "3-wheeler" we are running the ShopGirls car in a layout like that for the Shell Eco-Marathon; car is about 9 feet long. Any chance you have aphoto of the blue and white streamliner in this photo?
Michael, that is Don Vesco's streamliner with the new body in 1971:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/bubbamatt/Vesco-Blue.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/bubbamatt/Vesco-Blue-side.jpg)
It had a pronounced bulge over the front tire that year and that part was reduced in size in the next year.
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A room temperature glass of Guiness stout is the official beer of this project, yes. It's all I ever have in the garage, on a shelf, under a shop rag, so I don't have to share with senior management. She can have the Budweiser products as I can't taste them.
Great series of photos. Conversations some years back with Jack Dolan, before I even knew it would be a cycle car, went over some of the high mileage motorbike competitions and Battle Mountain type bicycle speed trials where 80 mph peddling is seen.
The Delta Wing car out of Indiana, both the prototype and the one entered in LeMans, rather renewed my interest. In the Human Powered Vehicle competitions, the 2 wheels forward models gave great early traction for sprints; the delta 2 wheels aft were more stable against side winds and ran straighter at high speeds. How this translates "up" remains to be seen. Rear drive is easier. Front drive is tempting.
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First, this is the official end of my cycle-car build diary, posted here with.
I'm heading out to parts unknown to work on my first love, diesel aircraft engine development, uninterrupted. It's gong to be a "virtual" enterprise on my end, not happening at specific location, but continuing to work with others who will be staying at their own facilities.
Our friends with the FIM here in the States have several resources to whom I can submit progress reports and questions over the course of the project. I like to think it will be at BUB in 2014 and the Shootout that same year.
Funny thing is how "easy" I believe this will be. Always give the hardest part of a project to the laziest person, who will find the easiest solution. Plus, I have at hand a decade of others experience and build diaries here on Landracing to refer back to. FIM rules for construction, such a small niche in a big arena. The "easy" is just reading carefully and always remember to color within their lines, not mine.
That's it. All my best to you LSR folk and your lust for speed.
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Moxnix (machts nichts);
Good luck with the diesel aircraft engine project. You probably know this already but the Germans produced quite a few during WW II.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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At the current rate of big-rig and locomotive conversion from Diesel fuel to CNG & LNG, you may be running in the VINTAGE class in a few years :lol:
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Moxnix... Power to weight will be the issue with the diesel UMMV