Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: EVLEE on April 17, 2006, 11:49:52 AM
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My name is Lee A. Jordan I have been working on racing cars of one kind or another since I helped my brother work on his 64 Galaxy 406 with duel 4bls.at the drags. I have work for different road racing teams from Champcars to 24Hrs. of Daytona. Since I first saw the Goldenrod in Hot Rod Magazine I have been in love with Streamliners!! This interest has sat dormant till my friend Roger Schroer was asked by The Ohio State University Buckeye Bullet team to drive there (EV3)Electric Powered Streamliner to a record of 314mph!! I have helped Roger with his racing(SCCA) cars since 1988. I now want to design and build my own Electric Streamliner and go for the EV1 RECORD at Bonneville in 2007 of 132mph. I am hopping to go faster than the EV2 Record of 213mph.
EV1 Streamliner has to weigh 1099lbs. or less without driver so I figure 1300lbs with driver and 180hp to 220hp depending on how many Batteries I can fit in to the car at 1099lbs weight.I am trying for as little frontal area and low CD as possible. I am willing to chat and listen to anyone that may have an Idea or interest in my Project.
Thank you Lee :wink:
http://www.metroevents.com/jordaneng/index.htm
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Lee
Enjoy the challenge of building in the lightweight class. I am too far away to give much help and my electric effort is on water!
You may read the magazine Racecar Engineering - this month (May 2006)they are running an article on an electric hillclimb car (uphill tarmac timed event) which has to be light and powerful. You may enjoy the piece although the companies involved are British.
The Speed Record Club magazine Fast Facts did run an article on 'Volta' when it ran in 1993 (back copies are available - www.speedrecordclub.com).
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Lee,
have a look at this web site
www.oneliterlandspeed.com
This is streamliner where I'm involed, with the 60 cubic inch unblown engine the racer was a little bit over 1300 pounds.
If you like you can contact me directly by e-mail, so as other racer/builder done, and I will give you my ideas and opinion for your racer.
You can explain it or you can send sketches/picture at added files.
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This is streamliner where I'm involed, with the 60 cubic inch unblown engine the racer was a little bit over 1300 pounds.
I have a question. In 1997 they set 2 records in the same day (gas and fuel un-blown). How did they do that? Was it the last day of the meet? Not at speedweek where you qualify one day and make the return run the next?
Just interested,
Sum
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At salt events after you qualify and complete a record you may have the engine sealed and the record put on hold. You can then run another class. If a record is set in the second class the engine is measured for both records.
The date posted as the record date is the date on any and all certification forms.
One thing to keep in mind is that if you chose this option the first record you set may be broken and certified at a higher speed. This event will negate your record and you must requalify on the new record. If a red hat is at stake this could cost a club memebership.
It's your choice, set and certify a record or hold off the certification to a later date.
DW
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Malcom ,I Get Racecar Engineering Magazine and familiar with hillclimb cars. Some hillclimbers over here use older Formula Fords chassis.I will be using front&rear hubs from one.I will need all my skills and as many tips as I can get to help me fit this car under the 1099lbs. rule !!
Pork pie, My Car will have a similar layout and if I think I can spare the weight my suspension will look something like the VERY COOL GREEN CAR!!
I am Irish and just love Emerald Green!! But I bleed RED WHITE & BLUE!!!!
I am hoping to reach a similar speed with my car?? I have to weight 200lbs less and carry batteries instead of fuel. I will read about the hillclimb car.I have been busy and have only looked at the cover of the magazine.
Lee
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I have a question. In 1997 they set 2 records in the same day (gas and fuel un-blown).
Sum,
the records was set the last day of the meet.
Terry, who set the second (fuel) record, got his licence from the year before, when he set out first record on gas (it was the fourth run of the car ever), Don who set the gas record done his licence runs, when he qualified for the record, after the return run the next morning we went into the impound and the engine was sealed with a wire and lead.
Than we done the paperwork for the fuel class, went back to the line, Terry qualified for the fuel, back into the impound and back to the starting line for the return run. Was a damn hard day, to make the car twice race ready in always 1 hour - sweat out.
Overall the car set in his first ten runs three records, was not too bad for some old greenhorns :wink:
This explain that we set both records the same day.
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Lee,
yup, our car is about 200 pounds overyour limit, but therefore we have a radiator, transmission and the engine in. A electric motor is not this weight, also the batterie are not this heavy - if you make a quick change for the batteries, you can reduce the weight - two sets of batteries if necessary - if you run national records, you got enough time to charge the batterie in the impound, except if you qualify the last day of the meet.
The other advantage, you need no air box and naca's for the cooling. So the concept of the frame design can be much easier. Due to this that we got the wide engine in - which gave as the "wide" of the car, we got a lot of reinforcements in, which you can't see, to eliminate the weak frame around the engine.
When you build the frame, don't forget the cremona rules, this saves a lot of weight in the frame - a good cremona concept needs 30 percent less tubes.
As I offered before, you can contact me and I will check your ideas.
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This explain that we set both records the same day.
So if I have this straight the second to last day they qualified for a gas record. Did the backup and set the record the next morning (last day of meet). Then had the motor sealed, switched to fuel and qualified for a fuel record. Now since it was the last day they did the return run and qot that record in the same day and ended up with the two records on the same day.
Pretty neat :D . I'll bet that hasn't happened too often.
c ya, Sum
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Pretty neat :D I'll bet that hasn't happened too often.
I think so, too - and the party was so good as the day at the salt :wink:
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:lol: Hi
Well after getting down to facts and figures with the weights & measures.I will not be able to carry enough Batteries to run the AC Propulsion system(the bad news) that cost $25,000.( the good news) I will be able to carry around 12 batteries for a DC not AC system. My hopes of 200mph are not out of site but are going to be a lot harder to get to.My goal is still 200mph!! Club!!I have to fit me a DC motor and 12 batteries into a car around the size and 50lbs. more than EZ-HOOK !! MY first goal will be to make the class weight of 1099lbs. then the long course at Bonneville. I am finishing up my first Idea hand drawing tonight and should have it posted Sat. morning.
Lee
PS. Many thanks for all the Canopy Ideas and Refs. :wink:
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A new regulation for 2007 will be put into place for electric vehicles.
All electric vehicles will be required to have a audio system and play one of the engine sound cd's at volumn setting of 11 while on the race track.
When an electric car is running people in the pits think that the course is shut down because no sound is coming from that area. LOL
DW
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Dan, maybe a smoke generator would help.LOL
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Still can't hear it. On the list of top five experiences at Bonneville, sound is in there somewhere.
DW
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Here are a few first thoughts put down on paper.
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Electric vehicles are properly classified by DB.
The Sport Compact bunch have DB Drags all the time
and you need more room for the crowd than the entries.
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Elvee,
I hate to keep promo-ing this book but get a copy of "The Leading Edge" by Goro Tamai and I think that you my look at you design differently. Like your sketch and that is exactly where we all begin. When you have very limited horse power then everything is aero.
Rex
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At the moment my critical mass is about weight and how much power I can get ,How to package it with the least frontal area and lowest drag possible. I will get and read ,The Leading Edge. I like having the driver right behind the front wheels for view,short steering wheel shaft,and easy running of the shifter back to the transaxle.(like it normally is ran) If I can put batteries behind the driver and some more behind the rear wheels .I think that would help traction.I also want to have a very fine trailing edge similar to EZ-HOOKs tail(with the flaps that open to let the parrachute out.I would like to have more of a rounded body than the Buckeye Bullet ,Lightning Rod or White Lightning.With the driver at the rear it seams to me that those cars are just releasing to much turbulence off the back of the car.(narrowing the back of the car to quickly and losing laminar flow at a very critical place on the body?? Maybe it is just me?? Right now I just spittin in the wind and see where each idea lands. I would like to be under 4 sq.ft. frontal area. and have a CD of around .100 I think I will only be able to carry 12 x 900amp,12 volt batteries running a 144 volt DC motor.
I would like to run 26x4.5 Goodyears on the rear and 21x5 Goodyears on the front. Well it is off to half.com to buy The Leading Edge !!
Night all Lee :wink:
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Hey Lee
....don't operate heavy machinery or sign any legal documentation after you've been reading Tamai's book , you may be best doing it with a "buddy" in case you drop off and drown in your own drool , it's real heavy going ....good luck.
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Hey Lee
....don't operate heavy machinery or sign any legal documentation after you've been reading Tamai's book , you may be best doing it with a "buddy" in case you drop off and drown in your own drool , it's real heavy going ....good luck.
Hey Doc that book is like reading a comic book 8) , nothing to it if you have a PHD in math and physics :D . I can't get through most of the formulas, but the summaries at the ends of the chapters are a little easier. It is a good book though and I've picked up some things I would have done differently and hope that it helps me.
Ok Lee I have some comments on your drawings. Hope you have a thick skin and as always these are only my views and suggestions and it is "your" car.
I think you will have plenty of traction if all your weight (motor/batteries) is ahead of the rear axle, so on the first picture I would move the back batteries forward or will the electric motor run in either direction? If so could you turn the motor/transaxle around so the motor was behind the axle. Now I would only recommend that if the motor is lighter than the batteries you were going to put back there. The weight forward is going to help keep your center of gravity ahead of your center of pressure.
I like the second car but think the area for the driver is optimistically small/short. You have to package the front axle and tires in there and that looks like it would only leave about 5 feet for the driver and if the car is only 2 foot tall (your scale) you are going to need at least the drivers height, plus some for the cage. I've tried to get the height of my car as low as possible and a 30 inch height (not including ground clearance) has been about as low as I can seem to get and still provide helmet clearance under the top roll bar and the bars under me at the bottom of the car and still be able to see down the track with my head inclined and I'm not too large. I think Rick's red streamliner (Costella body) might be under 2 feet, but I'm not sure.
Be sure and remember room for the fire extinguishers. Plan for about a 6 inch by 3 foot tube for one chute.
Since these are plan views only it is a little hard to comment on aero at this point.
It is good to see you getting started and you have to start somewhere. Are you going to speed week this year? It really helps to look at the cars. Maybe you have already been.
c ya, Sum
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An early pioneer in Drags and LSR he was asked in a interview why he got to drive so many different cars. His answer was because he was relatively small. He fit where builders could not.
You should not build the drivers space so small as to take the range of motion to the extreme. Your restraint system can't protect you if your head,neck, and legs are at their limit already. :wink:
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I am now sure I will be able to run 14 batteries of 33 lbs. each.The first time out I think I will just try to beat the record of 132mph..I would like to go at least 175mph average.so I will save weight by not running a parachute for now. I can Fine tune the car for later runs above 175mph and run a parachute then.
Lee
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Getting a lot of info and help in selecting the right motor and Battery combo.
I am still thinking of not running suspension on one or both ends?? any comments on that idea?? :D If I do it will be Mono coil-over Fox shocks so I can change the springs and ride height if needed.will cost me a battery or 2 maybe ?
Lee :D
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Lee,
the question is, how hard can the batteries hit from the rough salt, before they are damaged. If you got no suspension, it could be that the salt kick the batteries function out......
The suspension cost you weight and space - but if it's necessary to get the right performance from the batteries - you better think about.
By the way, can you get me the measurements from your front and rear tire - what I mean - the diameter of the tire, how wide, wheel and rim size
- I like to check this with my concept - if it would be feasable with my idea.
Also the size of the batteries, how it will match inside the frame - to give you the idea how the rough dimensions will work.
Thanks in advance
Best wishes
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Front tires are 21 inches x 5 inches on 15 inch rims
Rears tires are 26 inches x 4.5 inches on 15 inch rims
Battery size is 6.5 inches wide x 11 inches long x 8 inches tall weight 33lbs.
I hope this helps Lee
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Bill Lyon
Former Goodyear Tire Engineer,currant TRC(Transportation Research Center in Ohio)Engineer and friend has enthusiastically decided to help with my little project!! It only took a few pints of Killian's !!! Bill has worked on and advised on a few Bonneville projects .
:lol: Lee
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Great to hear the project team grows, nothing like having someone else's commitment to spur on your own.
Any chance of seeing more drawings, sketches, ideas?
Reverend H+
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yes there is always a chance !!
Check out the bottom of page one for first ideas
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There are some guys in Florida that are running a twin engine (motor?) electric powered Subaru Impreza. This is a serious, for-real deal and they have been doing well racing the car in SCCA events. You may find their choice of batteries of interest because of their size, shape and weight. They get the batteries from Kokam. They ain?t cheap but you may find a battery like that will give you a lot of flexibility with the size and shape of your streamliner. Pound for pound they appear to ideal for what you are attempting. http://www.proev.com/P1News.htm will get you into their site. There are links to more info on the batteries.
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EvLee
Kokams look like the answer- epecially for the 500 kg record.
Energy Density!!!
Eyeball ran Hawker Energy off the shelf and was probably built for under 100K.
Dempsey used a grillion radio controled slot car type batteries and Coconi's controller and probably spent a qurter mil.
Impossible to equate Ohio State's budget 'cause of corporate help, etc.- and even though I witnessed the record, they kept covering things up in the pits re: batteries and controls!
It all boils down to "How much do you want to spend to fulfill your dream?"
Did you ever contact Don Arivett? He can avoid you making mistakes!
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I plan to spend less than $10,000. I still plan to buy Formula 2000 Roller for around $4000.use the steering,transaxle,brakes,uprights and maybe fire system.seat belts,? I can part the rest of the car on ebay to pay for the rest of what I need or save it if I want to put it back together !! Motor will be prepped by Jim Husted of Hi Torque Electric in Redmond ,Oregon USA
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com/
Jim has done some pretty cool mods !!
Lee
http://metroevents.com/jordaneng/index.htm
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I have decided on the donor car it will be a 88 to 90 Reynard FF2000 This Car has a very compact spindle and upright design that will help keep the car as light &narrow as possible.
Lee
Now all I have to do is find one cheap without an engine!!!