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El Mirage => El Mirage Rules Questions => Topic started by: Monolith on July 19, 2012, 09:09:46 PM

Title: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: Monolith on July 19, 2012, 09:09:46 PM
Hi, all,
I have a couple of old 60's GM trucks and I'm trying to decide which would be better to turn into a race truck. I'd be running E/PP if I could, and was wondering if the panel would fall into this category.
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: Stan Back on July 19, 2012, 10:51:17 PM
Great question!  We've got a guy in our club that runs a Austin Panel (I don't consider it a Sedan Delivery) in Gas Altered.

Anyone?
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 20, 2012, 01:01:46 AM
Opinion:  I'm just a truck racer, and member of the SCTA, NOT an inspector or official -

Your first step is to get a rulebook from SCTA-BNI.ORG and read it page for page, ESPECIALLY the front.

There is a lot of safety equipment to buy.  I spent about $20k on safety equipment for a pickup.  You could do it for far less, but it's still not going to be a cheap date or simple.

If you are good with the universal safety equipment rules, then here's what the book says:

Production Pickup allows a shell so I THINK you could do it.  5.E.4 /PP "Aftermarket bed caps are allowed but should not offer an aerodynamic advantage".

You have two possible paths:

1)  Contact someone from http://scta-bni.org/contact.html , I think it's Mike Manghelli, and get a decision if it qualifies as PP.  Send pictures.  You should keep any correspondence and pictures in your logbook (you need a SCTA logbook for your truck at all times).

2)  Just show up with PP on the window, and register it as PP.  You might get protested, but if it looks like a truck, I doubt it.

Now, be aware, a normal Sedan Delivery is NOT a truck I've been told.  If it was based on a car chassis, it's a car.  El Caminos are cars, my old '57 Ford Sedan Delivery is a car.  The only exception is VW Rabbit trucks as far as I know.  From what I remember a 65 Chevy Panel is a pickup with a van bed incorporated.  It has the truck frame and nose.  A 57 Ford SD is a 57 sedan with van bed on it.

Note, your safety rules are based on the existing record or minimum.  128mph for Bville and 118 for Elmo. 



Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: Monolith on July 20, 2012, 02:22:10 AM
Thanks for the replies!
I have the rulebooks for the last 2 years as well as the current one. I refer to them pretty regularly in an effort to understand what it's going to take to prep a race vehicle and to avoid asking common or obvious questions. The bed cap reference is EXACTLY what got me thinking about the panel. And it's certainly a truck-truck chassis, drivetrain-most parts interchange with pickups of the same series. It's not a sedan delivery. Hopefully the folks in charge will agree. I'll follow your advice and write an email submitting documentation. I'll post what I find out here.
Thanks again!
Baz
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/m0n0lithik/Jakes%20Projects/9d391d57.jpg)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/m0n0lithik/Jakes%20Projects/9d391d57.jpg)
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 20, 2012, 02:55:48 AM
Have you joined a club yet? 


Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: Monolith on July 20, 2012, 03:59:32 AM
I haven't. I've been trying to get to a Roadrunners meeting but work schedule has prevented it.
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 20, 2012, 05:18:39 AM
I haven't. I've been trying to get to a Roadrunners meeting but work schedule has prevented it.

I'm a Roadrunner too and run into the same issue.  My days are sometimes longer than I want them to be, and I don't get to pick which days are too long.

You need to join a club ASAP if you want to run Elmo this year.  The course workers are club members, everybody works who wants to race.  With the RR's, it's once a year.  I do patrol later this year, and I'll probably do a "course walk" or two I hope. 

I'm probably not the best guy to give advice (I can tell you how to screw up), but I probably can help some.

Jerry from the RR's sends out minutes of each meeting via email so that helps.

Bonneville is next month, so our next meeting is at a restarant.  I forget which one, so I'll post it in this thread tomorrow.  The Sept meeting is at Ed Martin's garage the second Tuesday of the month.

If you haven't attended an event yet, you should do that.  Sept 16 is the next.  Tech and setup is Saturday, racing is first thing Sunday morning.  One of us will give you the grand tour if you ask.  Bring a bicycle or a dirtbike if you can.  There is a food truck on Sunday, bring water, a hat, a chair and sunscreen.  You can pit with us, we are about a 1/4 down the track from the start line next to the return road, there is a Roadrunner flag there.





Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: dw230 on July 20, 2012, 12:40:12 PM
A pickup truck is just that - a pick up truck. A van, panel truck, SUV, station wagon, etc. is a Production Coupe, a Gas Coupe, an Altered, whatever, depending on the configeration. A 'bed cover' is what covers the bed of a pick up truck. It is not a cargo box behind the cab.

DW
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 20, 2012, 01:42:41 PM
A pickup truck is just that - a pick up truck. A van, panel truck, SUV, station wagon, etc. is a Production Coupe, a Gas Coupe, an Altered, whatever, depending on the configeration. A 'bed cover' is what covers the bed of a pick up truck. It is not a cargo box behind the cab.

DW

You are probably right, but ...

How do you define a pickup?  And a Bed Cap?

A van is seldom a pickup.  I've owned several of them, mostly Fords, but a couple of GM's as well.  They share nothing with the pickup but the engine and sometimes the rear axle.  Nothing else.

Isn't it up to the racers in PP to decide?  That's what happened with Hudson DT entry.  It wasn't even close to legal for DT, yet since nobody protested, they ran it, and everyone enjoyed watching it run.  Heck there was a tilt-body "pickup" with a boat engine in it that was called a pickup.

Tech is for safety, it's the driver's responsibility to enter the right class as he interpretes the rules.  If some disagrees, they whip out a checkbook, and have the SCTA officials decide.

Not trying to bust your balz Dan, but classes appear to try put similar vehicle in groups.  That truck is more truck than coupe.  It's NOT a car.   It has the aero of a brick, worse than a pickup, and you think it should run with the Civics?   I'm thinking the reason they outlaw cars that are made into pickups is because of an unfair aero advantage.  That isn't the case here.  I know if I was running a truck, I would not protest it.

Just my opinion, which is worth what you pay for it.
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 20, 2012, 01:47:25 PM
PS - Recently I towed a 8,000 lb trailer with my "pickup" with 8 tires in the bed.  Try that with a Rabbit.   :evil:

If you're going to define a Pickup Truck by what a Pickup Truck really is, then few qualify.  A Pickup Truck can haul big loads and tow trailers.  If you are going to define them by aerodynamics, there is no difference between a fiberglass bedcap and a factory steel one.
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: salt27 on July 20, 2012, 02:24:00 PM
I thought the term "bed cap" in the rule book was refering to a tounneau cover.

  Don
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 20, 2012, 03:00:02 PM
I thought the term "bed cap" in the rule book was refering to a tounneau cover.

  Don

It already says panels or tonneau covers earlier in the paragraph.  Then it goes on to say Bed Cap, and does not specify a height, it just says, No Aero Advantage.  I can prove a cap is no aero advantage over a tonneau cover.  I run both.  Tonneau is much better.

In any case, if someone thinks it's unfair, they can protest.  It's a very visible feature, so no tear-down.
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 20, 2012, 04:28:10 PM
If you have to run in the E/PRO class, your safety equipment must be for 180mph, and you cannot set a record below 180mph.  Several rules change when you go past 160 and 175 IIRC, and you will have to comply with them. 

If you are able, drop the engine to 3.0L and go for F/PRO.  This is 156mph safety rules, which are much cheaper.  The engine has to be of a type that would have come in that pickup of that year, but IIRC, you can "kill cylinders", ie - pull 2 pistons at opposite sides of the firing order.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Do it for fun, or buy a junk car that is much smaller to run PRO.  Frontal area is a beach.

And that's the main thing, having fun.  We are not curing cancer.  We are taking our hotrods out to the safest place imaginable, a big dry lake bed, and mashing the go pedal.  I would do that before I even knew the SCTA was doing the same thing.  Just crack the whip and watch the scenery fly by.

When it stops being fun, is when it's time to find something that is.
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 20, 2012, 08:07:15 PM
I haven't. I've been trying to get to a Roadrunners meeting but work schedule has prevented it.

Here's the scoop:

"In lieu of our regular meeting, which falls during Speedweek, we will be having a dinner get together at Olivia's Mexican Restaurant in Riverside and NOT AT our usual meeting location, the Ed Martin Garage. This is a "no host" affair. Most dinner entrees run around $11 to $16 and a la carte items are less. Olivia's website link and menu: http://www.oliviasmexicanrestaurant.com/
Dinner is at 7pm, Tuesday, August 14th at Olivia's Mexican Restaurant, 9447 Magnolia Ave, Riverside, CA. Please RSVP by August 13, to Jack Masson if you and/or guests plan to attend. Jack's phone is 951-737-9449 and e-mail is: j.masson@ca.rr.com


We will be back at the Ed Martin Garage for our regular Club meeting on September 11 at 7pm."


Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: Monolith on July 20, 2012, 08:28:07 PM
Here's the answer to my question in the thread title:
Basil,

A panel truck would run in the coupe and sedan class.   The vehicle is
required to have a bed for the pickup class.

Mike Manghelli
SCTA Rules Coordinator
----------------------------------
Good thing I have a 1964 GMC 1000 as a backup. ;)
Thanks for the info Pat. And for making me feel welcome.
I've been to El Mirage a few times to watch. I wont be able to get a truck prepped for this season-maybe next if time and money are kind to me. I'm also going to try to get to the salt for at least a day this year if I can swing it. And I'll try like hell to make the next couple of Roadrunner meetings.
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: Monolith on July 20, 2012, 09:37:44 PM
Sorry about the quick response earlier, just wanted to get the ruling out there. I'm definitely going to start building a truck this summer. Do I pick up the log book before the build starts? Right now, I'm pretty much a one man show on this project-I'll have a friend or 2 to crew when the time comes, but I anticipate that I'll be building this thing myself-I'm no mechanic, but I'm a fast learner and have been messing with these trucks for a few years now. I can weld passibly, stick and mig, but I'm not certified.I'm a newbie when it comes to engines-but I'm in the middle of rebuilding a 250 and I have a spare. I'd be happy to help around your pit in september, Pat, even if it's just holding shade or fetching wrenches and drinks. I know I have a ton to learn, and am anxious to learn it.
Baz
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 20, 2012, 09:54:01 PM
Here's the issue, it's going cost a few thousand more to run in PRO than a class with a lower MPH, and you won't get anywhere near 180 at Elmo with less than 500hp, and that's being wildly optimistic.  Better guess would 700rwhp minimum.

A Dodge SRT-10 is more aerodynamic than any truck prior to 1990.  It has a V10 with 500HP.  Dodge engineers drove it to a top speed of 145mph for promotional purpose "Fastest Truck".  A modified version went about 250mph at Bonneville.

Let me look through the book.  Are you stuck at E engine size?

PS - Sometimes it's better to ask for forgivenness than permission.  Personally, I'd have stuck PP stickers on it.  I doubt with a 260ci engine you would break a record, so protesting would have been a moot point.

Now put a diesel engine in middle of it, and the MDT record is about 160, and you can run up to 750ci and unlimited turbo boost.  You'd have a solid shot at that.  Get a cheap 12v Cummins, run staged turbos on pump fuel, and you'd git-er-dun.

I'm planning on running a slow arse bike in Sept.  We might use "Casper" (our DT kinetic energy weapon) as the chase truck.  It will certainly beat the motorcycle to the end of the course.  You are welcome to be my Pit Crew, but to be honest, the boss is insane and the pay svcks.  But food and beer are free.

Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: fastman614 on July 21, 2012, 12:39:45 AM
As has been alluded to in earlier posts..... class legality is more academic than real if a record is not set. Remember - the rules state that it is the entrant's responsibility to be properly classified - NOT the thech inspectors" responsibility (although some inspectors do try to make it their responsibility).

Speaking of class legality, inadvertantly, in 2006, we had our lakester entered in C/ClassicGasAltered.....due to someone incorrectly entering the incorrect computer code (for the body) on the entry....YUP.... THAT IS WHAT THE WRONG CODE CAN GET YOU!.... anyway, we were 25 mph short of the coupe record and we were also licensing drivers so nobody really cared and nobody protested us.

What could happened though is somebody could run an obviously illegal for the class vehicle and get a first place trophy - and not really be eligible to receive it.... it used to say that the fastest car had to be within 3% of the record to get it (or was it a smaller percentage than that - I haven't looked recently)
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: dw230 on July 21, 2012, 10:40:37 AM
Thank you for your input Pat. With your insight it appears that I don't need to go to the races anymore. Please cancel my room.

I am reminded of an old saying, it's our ball, so our rules for the game. You know how to apply for a rule change, I have seen your suugestions in the past.

DW
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 21, 2012, 02:50:51 PM
Thank you for your input Pat. With your insight it appears that I don't need to go to the races anymore. Please cancel my room.

I am reminded of an old saying, it's our ball, so our rules for the game. You know how to apply for a rule change, I have seen your suugestions in the past.

DW

Love you Dan, and you are a cornerstone of LSR racing in the US.  I appreciate all you do.

Good luck at Bonneville this year, and hope everyone stays safe.  Wish I could go.  But like the last couple years, I can't.

But I race for fun, as do a lot of other folk.  Not to dis Monolith's truck, but it's not going to go fast enough with a normal engine on a budget to be a 175mph class safety risk.  Even an F1 engine probably would not do it N/A.   Running in a 175+ class is a lot more expensive, especially if you're never going to get close to there.  If I wanted to start racing LSR, I would not start with that truck.  I'd buy a cheap sedan and go from there, or run diesel classes.

Why?  It's too damn big.  It's a truck.  Sedans are far smaller, even the biggest ones. 

I didn't suggest running DT because as you said, the ruling is that it's a car, UNLESS you go modified.  Modified does not say pickup in it, any truck can run AFAIK.

I'm still looking through the book how he run his truck most effectively, and so far I'm coming up empty.

Dan,

If you had his truck, what would you do, assuming money and points are important to you?  What is your best advice for his situation, if he's in it for fun?








Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 21, 2012, 04:11:35 PM
Sorry if I offended anyone, it was not my intention.  My apologies.

Let's get honest, trucks are not race cars.  People who race trucks mostly do it because they love trucks, not because it makes sense.

Everybody knows what the fastest car is, and the fastest bike, and the quickest, but only the hardcore know what the fastest or quickest trucks are.

Think about it.  Why does SCTA even have truck classes?  It makes no sense, trucks are slow, and aren't designed to race.  Because there is a small group of hardcore truck lovers.

I'm one of them, but I love cars and bikes too.   

Guys race barstools, tractors, lawnmowers, etc, etc.

If the truck guys think Monolith isn't playing fair with his truck, then the truck guys will jump him.  El Mirage is about good times, and going fast in the dirt.  There is no prize money, no sponsors, no grandstands, no trophy girls.  It's akin to AutoX or Desert Racing.  It's all about the racing, the entertainment factor is with the crews, drivers, and hardcore race lovers.

Racing isn't always fun.  But it should be.
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 21, 2012, 04:15:57 PM
PSS - Dan, you know a LOT more about LSR than I do.  I'm pretty sure everyone knows that.  I'm just a SCTA member, a club member, a racer, and a worker. 

Smart people should listen to you, not me.  I'm a lesson on how do things the hard way.  :D
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: Monolith on July 22, 2012, 02:40:24 AM
I have a pickup that I'll be using as a platform for my E/PP endeavors( actually, I have a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton.)
My logic is this: I have the truck already, I'm familiar with this series of trucks, the record is at a lower speed, so I can build, drive, learn with less resources expended and at a slower safer level. If I decide to get nuts(which I probably will after a few seasons of this) I can always expand on the platform and go with a bigger motor or run modified.
I'll save the panel for a street worthy project.
I'm a truck lover as well, I saw that Ford Unibody this year and that really drove home to me that I could do this-that I didn't have to go out and spend tons of cash on a roadster, or spend years designing a streamliner from the ground up. I really appreciate the input and am happy to listen to the guys who know. I'll bet with some good solid effort I can get pretty close to 120mph in an old chevy truck, or at least have a hell of a lot of fun trying. :)
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: PatMc on July 22, 2012, 03:08:08 AM
I have a pickup that I'll be using as a platform for my E/PP endeavors( actually, I have a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton.)
My logic is this: I have the truck already, I'm familiar with this series of trucks, the record is at a lower speed, so I can build, drive, learn with less resources expended and at a slower safer level. If I decide to get nuts(which I probably will after a few seasons of this) I can always expand on the platform and go with a bigger motor or run modified.
I'll save the panel for a street worthy project.
I'm a truck lover as well, I saw that Ford Unibody this year and that really drove home to me that I could do this-that I didn't have to go out and spend tons of cash on a roadster, or spend years designing a streamliner from the ground up. I really appreciate the input and am happy to listen to the guys who know. I'll bet with some good solid effort I can get pretty close to 120mph in an old chevy truck, or at least have a hell of a lot of fun trying. :)

A pickup bed is way better than a van bed,  Too much area in the back that the air has to move into.

E PRO Pickup is a possible record, but not if you use a Panel Truck.  Get the body as low as possible before building the cage, use a bed cover, and there are other tricks I can help with.
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: Monolith on July 22, 2012, 03:20:00 AM
Be assured-I will be asking you a TON of questions!

Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: dw230 on July 22, 2012, 01:52:58 PM
There you go Pat. Monolith mentioned that he has a 1/2 ton truck and wants to run E/PP. That would be my suggestion.

The pickup classes were formed at a time when trucks hit an all time level of popularity. Witness the now deceased Pro Truck class at NHRA. NASCAR trucks are still racing, although you cannot see that from the empty seats on tv. Off Road trucks, show trucks, the number of vendors of truck parts at SEMA, etc. The classes were put into place so that those that wished to run a truck did not have to compete against an Altered or Gas Coupe. The difference in size was taken into consideration. As with all new classes, see Classic Category, certain restrictions were put into place in order to keep the class some what cost effective.

DW
Title: Re: What class would a 1965 Chevy panel truck run in?
Post by: Monolith on July 22, 2012, 04:57:07 PM

I'm planning on running a slow arse bike in Sept.  We might use "Casper" (our DT kinetic energy weapon) as the chase truck.  It will certainly beat the motorcycle to the end of the course.  You are welcome to be my Pit Crew, but to be honest, the boss is insane and the pay svcks.  But food and beer are free.


Let me know where and when to show up. I dont need much food or beer, just some insight and teaching from someone who's been down the track. Hell, I'd love to learn about bikes as well. Always been curious, never ridden one more than a block or two.