Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Rocket123 on April 19, 2012, 01:55:38 PM

Title: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Rocket123 on April 19, 2012, 01:55:38 PM
Haven't had the car out in a few years and reading through the rule book I see "Gussets are required at junctions of hoops and shoulder rail" also that plate gussets must be 4' per side. My gussets are the kind you can buy from Summit or Jegs that are about 2" per side I have quite a few . My question is where do I need to put in bigger gussets it is a nascar style cage so I would need two where the top hoop meets the main hoop and I am not sure what shoulder bars are? TY
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: zenndog on April 19, 2012, 01:57:26 PM
pics?
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Fordrat31 on April 19, 2012, 02:12:35 PM
Do you have the lastest rule book? There was a change made to gussets;

"Gussets are required at tube junctions of hoops and shoulder rail. Gussets shall either be made of plate, tubing or fabricated from sheet. Plate gussets shall be made from mild steel, .125 in. minimum thickness and 4 in. per side, preferably stitch welded on the outside of the tube junction. Tube gussets shall be a minimum of 1 in. O.D., round steel tubing with a minimum .120 in. nominal wall thickness although it is recommended that tube gussets be of the same O.D. and wall thickness as the main roll cage material. Tube gussets shall be constructed such that the outside edge of the tube gusset be at least 4 in. from the tube junction point, see Figure 3. Gussets are required at all shoulder bar attachment points. Grinding of welds is NOT permitted, see Figure 2. Gussets may not be used as aerodynamic aids and shall not exceed 6 in. in length without prior technical review and board approval."

Could be wrong but I think Nathan put in for this rule change, in my opinion I think it was needed.

Mike
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Rocket123 on April 19, 2012, 02:23:29 PM
Yes, that rule is the reason I am asking I just need to find out where they are wanting them. then I am planning on putting tube gussets and leaving my existing gussets. The way I read it I would need to put them where the top hoop meats the main hoop and if I were to assume I would put them where the top hoop meets the bars that come down through the dash. It says required AT ALL shoulder bar attachment points. Whats a shoulder bar. TY


Hopefully pics soon
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Rocket123 on April 19, 2012, 02:39:26 PM
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff81/Rocket1231/2012-04-19_12-08-39_740.jpg)
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff81/Rocket1231/2012-04-19_12-09-58_114.jpg)
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff81/Rocket1231/2012-04-19_12-55-03_961.jpg)
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: SteveM on April 19, 2012, 03:50:20 PM
The gussets are required to be open at the corners (I believe to allow the "Jaws of Life" type shears to get at the tubes if necessary).   

The line about Shoulder Bars is confusing to me, also.  If someone could point out what the Shoulder Bars are in your photo, that might be helpful.

Steve.
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Rocket123 on April 19, 2012, 04:02:44 PM
Quote
The gussets are required to be open at the corners

OK so I will have to cut the old gussets out. I only want to do this at the required junctions and leave any other gussets as they are. TY
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Glen on April 19, 2012, 04:07:51 PM
The gussets need a corner open for drain and salt build up from causing rust at the joint. The roll bars can be cut above the gusset. I have cut a few off with no problem.
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: zenndog on April 19, 2012, 04:11:20 PM
Interesting, I figured they were to add strength but still leave the joint a little give if put to the ultimate test so the cage didn't just bend above the gusset and leave a nice strong looking joint in the center of a crumpled up roll cage.
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Fordrat31 on April 19, 2012, 04:19:56 PM
The gussets need a corner open for drain and salt build up from causing rust at the joint. The roll bars can be cut above the gusset. I have cut a few off with no problem.

Wow I didn't know that either. I would think a shoulder bar is the hoop that passes over your head, closest to your helmet. I could be wrong about that. 
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: maguromic on April 19, 2012, 04:44:27 PM
What about cars that use saddle gussets?  There are quit a few of them out there, will they have to change over also? Tony
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Glen on April 19, 2012, 05:44:37 PM
Tony I guess that's up to the inspectors, this should be directed to the Tech. committee at SCTA / BNI & ECTA, I have seen all three types on cages.
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Bob Drury on April 19, 2012, 05:55:49 PM
  Tony, just remember that the requirements are for "minimums".
  In my case I used inch and a quarter round tubing spaced out six inches each way from all intersections of the main cage from front to rear.
  I have had many inspecters in the last fifteen years complement me on my cage.
  The only problem is that I powdercoated the entire chassis/cage assembly and now I would like to add a funny car style double hoop and can't do it without removing the entire body to grind off the powder coating...........             Bob        :-P
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Tman on April 19, 2012, 06:25:51 PM
What about cars that use saddle gussets?  There are quit a few of them out there, will they have to change over also? Tony

If it is a fully welded saddle clamp there is no way for salt to get inside anyway, moot point. There is a car in the build section and it had these gussetts. I believe the discussion said Kiwi Steve signed off on them.
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: dw230 on April 19, 2012, 11:57:34 PM
Saddle gussets are still OK for use. Shoulder bars are generally found in open cars such as roadsters or lakesters. Look at figures 2A & @B in your rulebook.

DW
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: NathanStewart on April 20, 2012, 01:47:59 AM
What about cars that use saddle gussets?  There are quit a few of them out there, will they have to change over also? Tony

Actually, when I wrote the proposed rule change I included some minimum specs for "saddle gussets" and for some reason they never made it into the book.
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: maguromic on April 20, 2012, 01:55:40 AM
Nathan,  Can you post your proposal on them?  We are leaning towards using them on the Firebird. Tony
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: NathanStewart on April 20, 2012, 02:06:51 AM
And to clarify further from what Dan said, a shoulder bar is in fact the bar that's at your shoulder in an open style cage.  Obviously the point is to strength the junction points where the cage hoops connect to the shoulder bar.  I honestly thought that mandating only plate type gussets was a little goofy and knowing that many cars have been using non-plate type gussets for many years I thought it only made sense to bring them in under the legal umbrella too and to use some common sense minimum specs.  Maybe I'll re-propose my rule change again to include the omitted "saddle gussets".

Rocket123, it looks like you've already got a same-as-main-roll-cage-sized gusset between your A pillar bar and your "shoulder" bar.  Instead of just worrying about what the tech inspectors want to see, why not think about where YOU'D put some gussets for additional strength and protection?  Does your top "halo" hoop have an X in it?  That's another form of gusseting.  Do you down bars (from main hoop down to rear section of car) have an X in them?  Does you main hoop (the one that goes over your head) have an X in it?  

I hate to be critic without seeing more of your overall cage design but I don't know how you got through tech without at least someone mentioning your undersized gussets.  It's not just a matter of meeting the letter of the rule (although you know you'll make it through tech every time if you do) but I doubt those 2x2 gussets are doing you any good.  Honestly, as a tech inspector, I'd rather see someone do something that makes sense versus just putting something some where because the rule book says they have to.  Just my opinion.

Don't forget to check out the last line of 3.A.3 while you're thinking about cage stuff.
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: NathanStewart on April 20, 2012, 02:12:49 AM
Nathan,  Can you post your proposal on them?  We are leaning towards using them on the Firebird. Tony

Made of cold rolled sheet, .125" min thickness, same coverage as described for tube and plate gussets (outer edge of gusset be at least 4" from tube junction point). 

You can actually see the part about "fabricated from sheet" in the rule book.  That part made it in.  The dimensions didn't. 

Or you could obviously plate in a tube gusset and get the same thing.  The idea was to be all encompassing and establish a min spec for all types of gussets.  I've heard lots of people say that the SCTA only allowed plate gussets because that's what was in the rule book which wasn't ever true to begin with but is now officially not true at all.
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: maguromic on April 20, 2012, 02:16:42 AM
Thanks Nathan.  That was exactly what we  were thinking.  Tony
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Jon on April 20, 2012, 03:45:05 AM
The saddle gussets would be welded along but not across the tube?

Thanks
jon
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Peter Jack on April 20, 2012, 09:33:31 AM
I would drill a 1/8" hole through each of the tubes in the area that the gusset will cover, then weld the gusset 100%.

Pete
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: dw230 on April 20, 2012, 11:03:05 AM
When gussets were first added to the rulebook, I would guess approx. 25years ago, the chassis builders were using the plates. These were written into the rulebook and as time goes on new technology arrived.
As Nathan mentioned it was time to put into writting what was happening on the ground. The stitch weld is the preferred method of attachment.

DW
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Fordrat31 on April 20, 2012, 11:14:11 AM
I would drill a 1/8" hole through each of the tubes in the area that the gusset will cover, then weld the gusset 100%.

Pete

Can I ask why?

Mike
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Tman on April 20, 2012, 11:59:54 AM
I would drill a 1/8" hole through each of the tubes in the area that the gusset will cover, then weld the gusset 100%.

Pete

Can I ask why?

Mike

You need a hole for the expanding gasses when you weld something up tight.
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Fordrat31 on April 20, 2012, 12:20:28 PM


You need a hole for the expanding gasses when you weld something up tight.
[/quote]

That makes sense now! Thanks

Mike
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Rocket123 on April 20, 2012, 12:33:36 PM
I am going to weld in some tube gussets where the hoops meet and wherever else I think they would help. So do I have to cut out the old gussets? Could I drill a hole in the corner of the gusset? Even if you think they are not doing any good they are not hurting. TY


Quote
Don't forget to check out the last line of 3.A.3 while you're thinking about cage stuff.

Can this be part of the seat?
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: NathanStewart on April 20, 2012, 03:25:53 PM
No need to remove them if you're going to supplement them with something better.  I wouldn't worry too much about the corner deal on a closed car.  Open cars manage to get full of salt.  Just be sure to blow the corners out after an event. 

Yes, the helmet lateral movement limiting device can be part of the seat.  Just make sure it goes to the front of the helmet.  Many (most) don't. 
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Kiwi Paul on April 20, 2012, 11:38:29 PM
And don`t forget, you will have to do a bailout with your Hans Device ( if you haven`t already ) so make sure all your changes work with each other.....
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: jimmy six on April 23, 2012, 10:03:11 PM
I think the pictures on 26,27,& 28 are clear if you use them together. Fig 2 shows what a gusset should look like, stitch welded on the side of the tubing not in the middle.

Pic 4A and B show where they should go on those kinds of cages. Figure 1 would be hard to do since there so many bars.

The paragraph that starts "Gussets are"... state they are to be used when a shoulder bar has hoop joining it like figure3.

If all of your main hoops go to the frame in one piece I read gussets are not required. Personally I have added a few to my cage because I feel the triangleing could help and what's in the book is the minimum. My 6 hoops all go to the frame in one piece like many of the old cars.

You need to plan well and for the worst possible incident...........Good Luck
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Fordrat31 on May 05, 2012, 11:13:31 AM
Has any one found a place that sells a saddle gusset that meets spec (.125" X 4" sides)? I looked at A&A but the largest they have is 3.750"

Mike
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Tman on May 05, 2012, 12:02:59 PM
Has any one found a place that sells a saddle gusset that meets spec (.125" X 4" sides)? I looked at A&A but the largest they have is 3.750"

Mike

I have not, I love A&A, maybe we could talk them into doing a run?
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Fordrat31 on May 05, 2012, 01:36:17 PM
Has any one found a place that sells a saddle gusset that meets spec (.125" X 4" sides)? I looked at A&A but the largest they have is 3.750"

Mike

I have not, I love A&A, maybe we could talk them into doing a run?

That's a good idea. I will shoot them an email later today.

Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Tman on May 05, 2012, 02:25:59 PM

Cool, let us know what you find out. I am sure more here would like to order some.


Has any one found a place that sells a saddle gusset that meets spec (.125" X 4" sides)? I looked at A&A but the largest they have is 3.750"

Mike

I have not, I love A&A, maybe we could talk them into doing a run?

That's a good idea. I will shoot them an email later today.


Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: floydjer on May 07, 2012, 08:30:12 AM
The minor problem that I see is that even if someone made a gusset in that dimension, it`ll only work in a right angle joint.  The 4 " side is going to 'shrink" as soon as you fit it into any place that has an angle to it. Maybe if someone with a press brake (me) were to bend up rectangluar pieces that could be cut/fit to the joint? :cheers: Jerry
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: SteveM on May 07, 2012, 08:52:20 AM
I was just walking through our shop at work, and looked at some rectangular tubing that I thought might be capable of being cut into saddle gusset like shapes.  The biggest issue I could see here is that if I were to cut an angled section out of a piece of rectangular tubing, it would still consist of 90 degree corners.  I think the saddle gussets are formed with a radius to match the tube.

I need to noodle on it a bit more.  I wonder if a piece of 2 x 6 x 1/8" wall rectangular tubing would work for the starting stock for saddle gussets.  It could be cut to virtually any angle.  Would the square corners present a problem, as they would not "wrap" around the 2 tubes?

Steve.
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Peter Jack on May 07, 2012, 09:06:19 AM
A little work with a grinder or a lot of work with a file should make a perfect fit on the round tubing providing your cage is built from 1 3/4" or larger diameter tubing. I'd probably be looking for some 1" x 4"  or 1 1/2" x 4"  1/8" wall tubing if I was going that route. I'd probably be more likely to build my own from 1/8" sheet and form them with a press. The required die would be rather simple to build and the forming could be done in a pretty small press.

Pete
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Fordrat31 on May 07, 2012, 09:22:51 AM
I sent an email to A&A asking if they would be interested in making saddle gussets to fit with in the rule, this is the reply I received;

"sorry, our dies will not accommodate that size".

Guess were out of luck with A&A.

Mike
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Tman on May 07, 2012, 11:08:04 AM
Yeah PJ, I was thinking the same thing. Be real easy to form them on a press.
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Joe Timney on May 07, 2012, 01:21:07 PM
Just use tube gussets!
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Peter Jack on May 07, 2012, 02:47:46 PM
Way too simple Joe!  :-D :-D :roll:

Don't forget to drill vent holes into the cage so that your tungsten doesn't get larger as you weld.  :evil: :evil:

Pete
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: wheelrdealer on May 07, 2012, 08:59:46 PM
Fordrat

I use eMachineshop.com, they have a free basic CAD program that is pretty easy for us Non-CAD guys to figure out. They will laser, water cut  or mill about anything you want. As expected, the more you order the lower the per piece price is. If you know someone that needs similar gussets maybe you can combine the order. You can design, choose the material and thickness and the software gives you a computer genenrated price in real time. If you have something real complex you can submit it to the machinist for input on the best way to get your part made.

http://www.emachineshop.com/ (http://www.emachineshop.com/)

It is not the cheapest...some people have access to this equipment but I do not. I built some shifters to accommodate my seat position. it took about 8 days for my parts to arrive.

Just an option I thought I would share.

Bill
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: Fordrat31 on May 14, 2012, 11:15:14 AM
Fordrat

I use eMachineshop.com, they have a free basic CAD program that is pretty easy for us Non-CAD guys to figure out. They will laser, water cut  or mill about anything you want. As expected, the more you order the lower the per piece price is. If you know someone that needs similar gussets maybe you can combine the order. You can design, choose the material and thickness and the software gives you a computer genenrated price in real time. If you have something real complex you can submit it to the machinist for input on the best way to get your part made.

http://www.emachineshop.com/ (http://www.emachineshop.com/)

It is not the cheapest...some people have access to this equipment but I do not. I built some shifters to accommodate my seat position. it took about 8 days for my parts to arrive.

Just an option I thought I would share.

Bill

Hey that's a pretty neat business. You weren't kidding when you said they weren't the cheapest though...
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: wheelrdealer on May 14, 2012, 01:18:48 PM
Fordrat:

No not cheap, but I have used them twice when I could not find something that I needed.

Bill
Title: Re: Roll cage gussets
Post by: SPARKY on June 19, 2012, 10:53:23 AM
on my new lakester I was asked to cut out the "point" of my triangles so that the jaws could and the salt couldnot get into the corners  I will use a larger size strap for making the rest of mine so that it leaves some clearance and you can see the corner joints.