Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Jon on March 13, 2012, 12:38:19 AM
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Hi
Been lurking & asking random questions for a while.
I'm putting together a Streamliner bike slowly, this is a low(ish) $ build compared to a lot of the builds I see on here.
Plan is to do all work myself if possible, I've got hobby size lathe & mill, old Mig that I bought 20+ years ago and a folder I made just after I left school.
With Lake Gairdner washed out I'm spending a couple weeks working on it, have a few more random questions & thought I may as well put them all in one spot.
My design is based on NACA66 low drag airfoils, 600mm wide at the widest point, 800mm body height +100mm of ground clearance, 4m long.
Height is so I can see over a 23" LSR tyre width is to fit the current CBR1000f motor and possibly a Bussa motor later.
I started off by cutting out a series of ellipses to represent the body shapevery 250mm along the length.
Latest in ellipse drawing equipment (did I mention I'm low tech)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/30abab30.jpg)
Front profiles;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/3c391bce.jpg)
Rear profiles;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/e246ee37.jpg)
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I set these up along my build table and started mocking bits up inside;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/0f6b7546.jpg)
The ellipsipses that were cut out I cut in half and used to make the core of a body plug to throw a mold off.
After pricing expanding foam etc my father mentioned he had seen lifesavers making buoys from beanbag balls when he was young so I used them and PVA glut to bulk out the mold;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/4bf4596d.jpg)
I plastered over that and sanded it into shape;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/9a1ebe1d.jpg)
Then put a layer of glass over that;
Front;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/105a1c56.jpg)
Right front 1/4"
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/77ecf696.jpg)
Tail;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/c7bc0878.jpg)
Pretty happy for my 2nd ever fiberglass job, 1st was at school, teacher reconed it caught on fire cos I used too much hardener, I still recon it was a lightning strike.
jon
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He's one of ours, and,
he fits right in. :cheers:
Clever, creative and with a sense of humour,next thing we know he'll be going fast.
Good to see you've started a diary Jon, looking forward to meeting up in person some time.
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Intuitively that shape sure looks right! :-D :-D :-D
Nice work.
Pete
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Nice one Jon
G
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Thanks for the kind words guys, I get a bit random every now and then so if you see something I'm doing is a bit off please stick the boot in.
I bought 1 1/4" DOM tube for making the frame.
Didn't go ChromeMoly, figure if I get the design & welds reasonable the DOM will stand up ok.
The main hoops are ellipses to follow the body shell.
After ringing a few specialist tube benders I worked out the answer to " Can you bend some ellipses for my rollcage/frame?" is Click.... Beep.......beep. Sooks.
A guy who builds boats in a little industrial area has a tubing roller & a dirty shed.
He now has a clean shed & I got to use his roller for a few hours;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/ac317b44.jpg)
I rolled the whole tube length to the biggest radius then worked my way into the middle in stages tightening up the radius in stages.
The first one (in pic) took about 3/4 of an hour with lots of in an out of roller and testing in the profile.
I wrote down the measurements for each segment & the others the same took about 10 minutes each.
The halves will joint at the widest point and their joins wil intersect the belly rail joins.
Pic of the rear ellipse halves trimmed and laid in the shell profile at that point;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/5c3e9cd9.jpg)
The rear engine mount, swingarm, rear suspension, chute pull mount stays & chute tubes all tie into this hoop.
The main ones follow the top and bottom better, old mates roller couldn't come in tight enough to get the tighter radius.
Made a jig up for my lathe and chucked a 1 1/4" endmill to notch my tube;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/86f73e2e.jpg)
Dint be picking on my favorite G-clamp either.
Jon
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I'm new to this TIG welding thing, I've run the odd bead with a MIG & stick but never used a TIG before making a couple tanks for Dave's bike.
I did a couple test welds today on the offcuts of the tube that I rolled;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/286e18de.jpg)
I then went looking for a press to break them to see if I was happy with the strength before I started welding anything real.
While going around I called in at a guy who builds rally cars.
I'd never met him before but he took the time to have a look and he recons it looks fine but my welds too big, he gave me some advice on filler rods gas flow and stuff which should help.
I did a weld this size thinking that the fillet should be at least as big as the wall thickness of the tube.
Any advice would be great, should I stick with my gorilla welding or go thin fillets?
He didn't have a press but I found a shop that did, same test piece after a bit of abuse;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/89405dab.jpg)
The bends in the ends away from weld were already there from the rolling job.
Thanks in advance.
jon
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Very cool Jon. 8-) I'll be watching this one. :cheers: Wayno
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Your welds are just fine. I sometimes think a lot of guys doing tig welds are too busy trying to be artists instead of working on structural soundness. I like your theory relating to wall thickness. Play with the gas flow until the weld doesn't look burned and the puddle looks clean. All should be good.
Pete
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Jon, my metric math skill are limited but the widest point in you body is about 23.4 inches.... while a hayabusa will fit in that width, the wide parts of the engine sit a bit low, at the bottom of your ellipse. It might stick out a bit. Is it long enough, 13 feet seems a little short to fit all the stuff in, you may need another meter or 2. Not criticism, just asking... I've worked on a few vehicles with everything tight fitting, Max's bike it like a jigsaw puzzle, pieces go in in an order :|
Love the shape, nice looking work... keep up the good work
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Thanks for looking guys, if it turns out 1/2 as good as your projects I will be happy.
Wayno; I'm keeping an eye on yours too. :cheers:
Peter Jack; my kids tell me I'm an artist of the BS kind, I'll mess about with the gas flow some & see how it goes.
Think I'll stick with the bigger fillets, unless someone can tell me a downside.
Stainless; going on the measurements I have a Hayabussa motor should fit (just) if I put the lengthwise frame rails in the right spot.
It is pretty short & its going to be a tight fit, bit of a cross between Tetris, a Soma cube and a Rubiks cube to make it fit.
Didn't see your comment as criticism at all, if I didn't want feedback from people who have done itI wouldn't be posting on this forum.
jon
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The new Triumph 675cc triple has a shape that might work well in those dimensions. They are good engines.
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Jon
The other big thing you have to fit in is the fire bottles
and they're not like the fuel and water tanks
they only come in one shape
G
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Thanks for the segue Grumm :cheers:
Made up the fire bottle mounts this am out of 20x3mm FMS.
They go up the back of the firewall;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/363e1dad.jpg)
The fire bottles were one of the first things I bought as I figured they are one of the bigger things to find a home for, bought them uncharged and supplier will charge when I'm ready to go.
I got a pair of the bigger 10lb Coldfire bottles, had to have 11lb+ and couldn't see the sense of buying 1 10lb & 1 5lb to save a couple $.
I'm plumbing the system in one loop with 4 nozzles in the engine bay & 2 in the drivers compartmment.
I know most people have split systems for drivers and engine compartments.
My theory is everything that can catch on fire is behind me, the only way I'm going to know I'm on fire is my but is going to be getting hot or the cabin is full of smoke.
About this time I want foam everywhere.
Thinking of running an interlock so if I hit the fire system it pulls the chute, if im on fire I want to be stopped as well as covered in foam.
Did a bit more today, will update after I cook a feed.
jon
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Started the day off making the fire bottle brackets;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/4ca5bbb0.jpg)
Cut the tails off the half ellipses & tweaked them a bit to get the alignment spot on and beveled them to get a decent weld;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/22fff614.jpg)
These and a couple others are the only full welds I'll be doing until I get it all tacked up as they will be covered by the side rails intersecting.
I'm drilling a 6mm (1/4") hole inside each join so that the all the tubes are linked.
I'm not planning on running compressed air, I'm going to purge and charge the frame with nitrigen when I'm finished & fit a pressure gauge, if I loose pressure the frame is cracked somewhere.
If I need to run air later I will use the frame, guess people charge their frames through a drier so that no moisture gets pumped in?
When I bought my mill 2nd hand it came with a bit of tooling, among it was a digital angle meter thingy.
Bit gimmicky I thought, I found a use for it today, getting both ends notched at the same angle;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/b4189b5a.jpg)
Must be getting old, heaps easier to get spot in than a spirit level.
By the end of the day I had the main cage hoop & the rear suspension mount hoop with the mid rails & bottom rails tacked up;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/6e3cdabb.jpg)
The bottom rails are wide enough to let the front wheel turn between them, I will be putting a very bottom rail under the drivers comapartment for extra protection.
Dave did some surgery on his bike with a 9" cutoff wheel, guess he will update his thread.
One minute he's helping me square things up, never he has a 2 piece bike. :-o
jon
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Jon,
Bike looks great. Really like the way you did the tube ellipses.
Back when I had a job we would test weld penetration by sawing thru weld joint, grinding very smooth then using dye penetrate to see if the weld is sound.
Al Teague had two big lights in the cockpit. Yellow for oil pressure. A heat sensor in the engine bay set off the red one.
Hope you come to Bonneville someday so all us yanks can see the bike first hand.
Gaday, Terry
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Jon,
Are you planning to make a mold off of your plug or are you going to just over lay the plug and then spend lots of time sanding? Might be nice to have a mold, that shape is killer! There might be someone interested in making a lakester with the shape. My guess is NACA 66018 for the shape. As much as Dr Goggles and The Rev give me crap about reading "The Leading Edge" by Tamai my guess is that you may have turned a couple of pages in this book also.
Looks great!
Rex
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Now I know how they must feel at AA :roll:
"Hi, my name is Jon & I've read The Leading Edge by Tamai"
It's even worse than that I have bits of pages marked that I reread very now and then.
(shuffle feet uncomfortably and sit down)
Forgive me Goggles, I'm a simple Queenslander (that was born in SA & lived in western NSW for 20+ years so I'm a bit confused.)
Getting to Bonneville oneday is a dream I have Terry, first got to get it built and get it out on the best salt in the world :-D hopefully the tide is out next year.
Going to get a decent finish on the plug and take a mold off it Rex, there's only two sorts of streamliner bikes I've been told.
Ones that have fallen over and ones that are going to fallover.
Dave and I kicked around the idea of running the same shell as a lakester but were now coordinated enough to keep twice as many wheels pointed in the right direction.
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Hey Rex, that's not giving you crap...in fact far from giving, we're taking something.
I always say the same thing about the gospel according to Goro, do not drive a motor vehicle or operate heavy machinery after reading it.
I would also steer away from making binding agreements or financial decisions too......I can just imagine you blokes frottering yourselves over your favorite pages......... :roll: :roll: :roll:
" The Executor wishes to inform the court and all applicants to the estate that the only realized asset is a copy of Goro Tamai: The Leading Edge"
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C'mon Googles your safe here, it's not that hard to say.
"My names is the good Dr Googles and I too have read Tamai's book"
"I still have it here and read it when no-ones is looking"
Not much to look at today, started o the drivers compartment and spent a bit of time working out the angle of the front bar to get max distance in front of my helmet and still meet the 120 degree rule.
From there I could work out the spacing to the next bottom 1/2 ellipse, I want the the base of the front cage hoop to intersect it;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/02ecfcec.jpg)
Rolled up a small ellipse for the front.
Knocked off early and went indoor climbing with my kids for a few hours.
Hope to finish tacking up the main bars tomorrow and start working out diagonals.
Jon
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Got the rest of the main rails and the front roll hoop tacked in today, looking from front;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/e0f67345.jpg)
We both had a bit of a test fit to see how it was getting back under the front hoop;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/5f5d6b83.jpg)
We put the mockup front wheel well in after this and feet can go a bit further forward.
Going to put in the bars to tie the roll hoops together then weld it up and start on the diagonals tomorrow.
I have two stupid questions today.
I read that people put all their diagonals in the weld their frame, how do they weld the joint that is under wher the diagonal intersects?
Surely don't leave it unwelded??
How do you get the diagonal in?
Cut one side of the notch off on one end, put the diagonal in and weld the cut off bit back on?
Firesuit and Hans ordered yesterday, checking out yoga classes soon
jon
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Have you hooked up with Roscoe yet?....dunno If I've asked you that?
That bending under the hoop is a great way to incentivize a diet, I've never been winded with so little effort.
Get back to the shed.
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always interesting watching a machine evolve. :-),
"up yours too Bunji" :-D, (last photo)
when Luckie first moved up here, i stored his Little Liner in my garage,, would often sit in it an set the world record, :wink:,, often thought that if i was to build a liner, too always keep in mind that if a major incident occured, how difficult would it be for the medical attendants to extract the rider, look for ways that may make it that little bit easier,,,
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always interesting watching a machine evolve. :-),
"up yours too Bunji" :-D, (last photo)
Bloody Dave; does bugger all for the day then flips the bird in a pic.
Hard to get good help :-D
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I caught up with Ross before I started building, some very nice workmanship there.
Might see if he can come and do first tech inspection when Bones is up this way if I've got enough done to warrant a look.
I'm a bit winky about him inspecting my work after seeing the quality of his, might have to see what he drinks :evil: :-o.
Went back down the shed to do some measuring, note to self, endmilling tube notches makes sharp cuttings that are attached to bare feet. :|
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Jon, put the inner cockpit liner in as soon as possible so your test fits are closer to real. the extra 1 1/4 you enjoy all the way around gives ya a false sense of size.
Looking great, don't think anyone will criticize your work in tech.
The easy way is to weld in diagonals as you go... :cheers:
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That's why you'll often see that the diagonals often go from tube end to tube end instead of corner to corner. This was brought up several years ago on this forum and I know some were cutting off a corner of the diagonal tube and then welding it back on after the diagonal was installed. That's about the only way that everything could be 100% welded because even if you insert the diagonals as you go there's part of the vertical tube can't be welded where it meets the diagonal.
Life and racing are full of compromises. :| :| :evil:
Pete
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Hi Jon,
Been following your build thread. Good on ya!
Your aerodynamics look pretty good. I might comment however, on the overall size. I built two complete streamliners that never made it to the salt, the third one did. Don Vesco was the pilot. The year 1996. The main problem was that he couldn't see out of it. Had to increase the roll bar height by 3". I used a 21" tall front tire. For a person to be able to see over the tire, the minimum distance between the inner liner of the cockpit and it's bottom concave, to the top of the roll cage metal cap must be at least 30". My riders can just barely see over the nose of the Vincent streamliner. When you check your visibility, make sure you have a current approved helmet, and are fully clothed in fire suit, gloves, boots, and all. Depends on who you have do your bubble canopy, but distortion is a problem due to the amount of lexan and the thickness you'll be looking through. This, coupled with abrasion, limits visibility a lot. Your body shape is similiar to Sam's E-Z Hook. Sam had to insert a distortion free piece of plexiglass in his bubble lexan before he could see well enough to feel safe at 350+mph. More than one liner has been built in a garage, and all seemed well as far as visibility, until put on the salt and subjected to real time. Al Teague, due to his canopy configuration, and depending on the time of day, when suited up in the liner on the line, pointed to the glare area on the canopy, and one of the crew members would put a bit of duct tape on the canopy. Needless to say, visibility is as important as is the engine being able to fire up. In either case, if one ain't right, you ain't gonna go nowhere.
All the Best,
Max
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Hi, Here is a picture of Sam's Bike around 1970 maybe 1969 anyway it was deem illegal to run after 1972 or so because he could see forward the tire and steering were in the way, anyway looking at your bike it looks all most like it. there is a picture of the bike he is running now.
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Jon,
As Peter said the "easy" way is to not make the diagonal intersect both tubes, but just because it is easy don't make it the right way. If you can't get the tube to fit in then cut one side of the "fish mouth" install the tube and then weld the side of the fish mouth back on. I feel that it is worth the effort as this is a much superior joint both from the stiffness and the strength stand point. Look at the attached link which shows the construction of the a state of the art off road truck and really show how tube structures should be done.
http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php/31417-Something-New!!
Pretty long post but well worth looking through for the information is gives. Good info on TIG welding also.
Love your build ~!!!
Rex
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The emergency crews in SCTA/BNI have two types of cutters to remove a roll cage. I have removed several 6 point roll bars using the Champion cutter in less then two minutes. The newest cutter is a Jaws of Life but I haven't used it. The thing is in 99% of the crashes the driver/rider is stabilized in the vehicle and then the roll bar is removed to allow the EMT's to put the driver on a shorty back board prior to lifting him out. There has been a lot of thought between the SCTA/BNI emergency response team, the fire dept. and the ambulance-EMT'S. Also in many cases body panels and other items must be removed to access the cage.
I have seen only a couple of crashes where the driver got out before the emergency people arrived. The other thing is a car that have stopped on it's roof is not something a driver wants to do is unlatch belts and fall inside the car.
always interesting watching a machine evolve. :-),
"up yours too Bunji" :-D, (last photo)
when Luckie first moved up here, i stored his Little Liner in my garage,, would often sit in it an set the world record, :wink:,, often thought that if i was to build a liner, too always keep in mind that if a major incident occured, how difficult would it be for the medical attendants to extract the rider, look for ways that may make it that little bit easier,,,
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Jon, put the inner cockpit liner in as soon as possible so your test fits are closer to real. the extra 1 1/4 you enjoy all the way around gives ya a false sense of size.
Looking great, don't think anyone will criticize your work in tech.
The easy way is to weld in diagonals as you go... :cheers:
I second that and I also have to remind you about "grey-out",my first drive at any speed on the salt had me completely unable to see because the roll cage padding was buzzing the helmet, it's not difficult, it's impossible to see.
Make sure you get as much room as you're allowed in those areas....research what padding is available.
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Thanks everyone for looking & giving feedback and advice.
I wasn't sure about starting a build diary after reading others, mine will be pretty basic.
I'm not that good at writing a good story, people can make grass growing sound interesting, I can make a sunset sound bland.
Dr Goggles; I found padding to fit 1 1/4" last night after searching for a while, is the buzz only while your resting or as soon as it touches? (don't feel special about being up the top, you posted while is was writing my reply and I can't scroll down the bottom of my post to edit it on my phone)
:cheers:
Stainless; I hope to get the tub lined as soon as my driving gear turns & I finalize the seat angle.
Peter Jack; I want to get the diagonals right into the corners, think I'm going to do it the hard way (& normally a couple times) :)
Max; I've been keeping up to date on your engine work, it's great to know your coming back again this year, hope it goes well for you.
I have a firesuit on the way, still trying to source a helmet, I'm wanting a Snell SAH2010 one with forced air, probably a bit of overkill but I don't want to buy one and have a rule upgrade make it useless.
I "think" I can see, I live opposite a big wall of a shopping centre, when I put the table together I sighted along the table and there's a line on the wall at horizontal from the table, that's my test mark, if I can see that I think I'm ok, I have a front wheelwell mocked up out of MDF.
I'm using a 23" tyre, I couldn't find any 21", I've been told they've been dropped.
Visibility does worry me some, as you said I'm going to be looking through the screen at a shallow angle.
I haven't found a maker for my screen yet, I've been told there's a company that makes screens for kit planes and stuff about an hours drive away.
Must remember the duct tape and the sun thing, thanks for comment on aero, it's all just thoughts and BS until I give it a run.
I'd like to get some CFD yaw stability advise but it adds up quickly, probably not as quickly as redoing the whole thing though.
StWheeler; thanks for that, how is Sam's engine upgrade going? He was kind enough to answer some questions I had about steering lock angles a year or so ago.
Rex; thanks for that, think that's what I'll do (won't be as pretty though).
Recon I'll cut and tack all the diagonals in and when I start welding it up remove them in pairs, weld the main tubes and then tack the diagonal back in and weld the cutoff part of fishmouth back.
Glen; I'm going to fully sheet my tub and rollbar section, the back will be the firewall, is it still possible to cut the hoops off, not hoping to use your services but noone else does either.
Thanks
jon
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Insert Quote
Thanks everyone for looking & giving feedback and advice.
I wasn't sure about starting a build diary after reading others, mine will be pretty basic.
I'm not that good at writing a good story, people can make grass growing sound interesting, I can make a sunset sound bland.
Dr Goggles; I found padding to fit 1 1/4" last night after searching for a while, is the buzz only while your resting or as soon as it touches? (don't feel special about being up the top, you posted while is was writing my reply and I can't scroll down the bottom of my post to edit it on my phone)
From what I hear it really depends on how well isolated things are. For us there is no resting, it starts the moment you touch the padding.Phone?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z187/fourdoorshitbox/red_phone.jpg)
computer?
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z187/fourdoorshitbox/mp_main_wide_EarlyComputerMarketing.jpg)
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Then I have to leave my cup of tea and walk upstairs and turn it on, plus I haven't finished putting stuff away and sweeping before I restart my lifelong study on the angle of repose of stuff I put down while I'm trying to build something :roll:
You recon it's coming from motor/driveline or from the ground?
I'm going to have about 1" of compression & 1" if rebound travel each end.
The motor is solid mounted though and is going to have to contribute to frame stiffness, there's not enough room to run diagonal braces past it.
Think I'm going to run into the top motor mounts from both ends with diagonals.
You sure are modern in Victoria, those models haven't come out in Qld yet.
It's not only cream that floats to the top :-D
jon
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Jon regarding the plating on the cage to the frame if the plate is welded all around the top rails to the loops it is very hard to remove the cage. Myself if I was building a new car or modifing an old one I would use the bolt on roll bar cover like the NHRA has on the top fuel and funny cars. They can be removed quickly with a couple of wrenchs and still give the driver the protection needed and the Emergency people access to the cage.
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Thanks Glen, my full drivers compartment will have stitch welded on skin.
Inside from midrail down in the seat area, outside from midrail up on the head shoulder area and midrail down on the feet leg areas.
Firewall will be welded to the back of cage with a couple small humps to let shoulder harness straps go around a cross bar.
Another day with a couple more tubes.
From the front wheelwell looking back;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/1d482812.jpg)
Cross at the firewall will have to come out again to allow welding of main joins first.
The cross above the engine will be cut later to fit flange & bolt connectors so it can come out to pull the motor, does anyone sell these in 1 1/4" or am I going have to make my own?
Side view;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/fae76adc.jpg)
Would like some opinions on the diagonal brace running up from the bottom of the main hoop please.
There isn't room to run it all the way to the rear hoop past the motor, it will intersect the front engine mount plate, thinking the motor should help tie it into the rear hoop.
Thanks
jon
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Jon, could you use bolt on plates to add stiffness around the motor. They could be installed toward the outside of the tubes and still add significant strength.
Your build is looking really sweet!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Hi Jon, it's me again. I've just read all the posts up to this point, and I went back to the picture of you sitting in the cockpit area. I mentally drew a line from your eyes forward on a parallel with the upper horizontal 1 1/4" frame rail. It appears that you're looking at your hands, and your knees are slightly above that. If this is your riding position, you WILL NOT be able to see out of the liner. Your hands on the steering should be no less than 6" below the eye horizontal plane. Your knees should be below that by another couple of inches.
I couldn't quite understand the dimples you suggest to put in your fire wall for shoulder harness seat belt brackets. The two shoulder harnesses must be bracketed, drawing a perpendicular line from your eyes straight down, and bolted below the seat plate as close as you can get to that plate. Your shoulder harnesses are bracketed a goodly distance down your back from your shoulders. Locating the bracket at shoulder height to the fire wall won't work.
Steering: You mentioned you talked to Sam Wheeler about lock to lock on stop adjustment. That's really not important. The important thing is center steering. The king pin angle of the center steering should be set at 42o. Don Vesco told me that 20 years ago, and I've used it ever since, never had any indication of a front end wobble. The steering ratio, handlebar to front wheel, should be 4 to 1.
Another guy who built a real small liner as of late, is another fellow running a Vincent. His name is John Renwick. He built and tested the liner in England on an airport runway. He reported no problems. When he got to Bonneville, suited up and tried to make a pass, he couldn't see out of the cockpit. Couldn't see over the nose, and couldn't steer the thing. We swapped fire suits, as he thought my rider's fire suit would give him more room. That didn't work. They chopped the nose bump off for suspension clearance, duck taped the hole up. That didn't work. They made extension brackets on the rear swing arm to give the liner more of a tilt forward. That didn't work. Finally they had to remove the canopy totally, and on my advice used a fixed location on the mountains and pointed the liner to that point, as the salt was only visible some three or four hundreds out. This would be the salt directly in front of the bike. That worked, and they made a run.
Sorry about some serious discouraging remarks, but that's the way I see it. Only trying to help. If you go to my website www.vincentstreamliner.com click on build diaries there's a lot of info there.
All the Best,
Max
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Now mind you this is a roadster guy talking -- this may not apply. Last year at El Mirage we had to move our shoulder belt attachments twice to get them in conformance. It ended up that they are almost horizontal to the ground -- and comply with the manufacturer's instructions of being 0º to -10º to horizontal. I think if you watch the video of Danny Thompson's Mustang crash, he had them much lower that just allowed his upper body to go forward more easily. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
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Thanks for the feedback guys
Peter Jack; Good idea thanks, will see how it looks in that area after I get the motor and swingarm mounted.
Max; My feet end up a bit further forward than that, I'll do a bit more work on that area so I can get them in the right spot, dummy up the seat back a bit better and put the mockup wheelwell in and post some more pictures.
With the seatbelt I plan on running round the rail ends on the shoulder and straight ahead crotch strap, still not sure on the hip and underleg straps. When I get back to work I will print a picture and mark up where the belts are going to run.
How much lock to lock do you run? I'm setting up to run 10 degrees either side, a bit less will let me take my feet further forward again and drop my knees more.
I was planning on running 2:1 steering, I will put in another couple of holes to try different ratios.
I've read your liner build diaries, as you say lots of good info there, that's why I appreciate your feedback and opinion.
Stan Back; the seatbelt requirements for me will be the same as you i would think as the bike liner belt section just refers to the car section, it would have been hard yards changing your mounting points at the lake?
Do most people have their seat back straight or curved?
I was thinking to keep it as straight as I could so that the harness held me against it, putting more of a roll in my back will move my but back slightly for the same head position, which drops my knees.
Thanks for looking and saying it like you see it.
jon
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Eagerly waiting for the drawings. I've always said, "Where there's a will there's a way." Remember, when you run a rubber tire on the front, you'll have to have a scatter shield. A steel bulkhead would probably work. If your feet are forward of the tire, and it sounds like they probably are, that's going to take a little work. After the year that Sam went 355 mph and blew out his front tire, he had a problem that there were no other tires that size available. He called me up and asked how wide the Goodyear was that I was running when fully inflated to 110 lbs. I gave him the measurements. He wasn't happy. Too wide for him to get his feet in there. I was running a 4" wide, 15" rim. We talked about if he went to a 3" wide could he make it work. He decided to go with an aluminum front wheel. The first wheel didn't work. He redesigned it, and it appears that he now has one that is working. Three years ago I built an aluminum front wheel, haven't needed it yet. Maybe someday.
You talked about your helmet, saying you were going to buy a ventilated helmet. I'd suggest that you not do that. Try to keep the outside dimensions as small as possible.
You asked about the seat, whether it should be formed in a curve. Most definitely. A problem that you'll run into, which we all run into, is when the full face helmet buries the bottom part of itself into your chest when you tilt your head forward to see out of the thing. The curve in the seat helps a lot there, and like you say, it'l scoot you further back and lower your knee height. You are for sure going to have to get your knee height down, your head up higher, and your hands down further.
Your seat belt should be designed so as to pull up on straps to tighten. I had to build two custom roller straps that fasten to the frame at the bottom by the rider's hip.
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My bike is a modified partial streamliner and I have learned a few things that might help. First, is to build in extra clearance around the wheels to accommodate future changes in wheel and tire sizes. I do not have this and it is a source of trouble. The limited clearance narrows down the tire choices I have for rubber with high speed ratings.
Second, give yourself a reasonable amount of room for scratching itches, fidgeting, etc. A fellow gets wider and stiffer and it is hard to fit in something that was a tight fit when a person was younger.
Third, set up the engine mounts with plates and spacers so a variety of motors can be fitted. The Norton Featherbed frame is an example. There must been dozens of different engines fitted into those frames over the years. My setup can only run one motor. The frame bolts directly to the engine and this is a big handicap.
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Thanks.
Max: I'm running Goodyear D2283 23x5x15 tyres both ends so it's pretty big when trying to fit it in and see over.
Based on feedback to a question on tyre growth I asked a while ago the top of my fender is 26"; 23" of tyre + 1" of compression suspension travel 1" of growth +1" of jon you messed up your maths again.
Its pretty wide by the time I allow for side clearance between the tyre and yoke and for the 10 degrees of steering lock.
Yes my feet are up beside the wheel, a few inches in front of the axle.
I will put some curve in my back when I mock up the seat next, just been using a straight board.
I'm going to get Strouds to make me some belts when I get the lengths sorted, he will recertify his belts if they're still good.
Wobblywalrus; I've read and been keeping up with your thread, nice mmetalwork skills, how is the screen going?
I'm running a LSR car tyre so hopefully I don't have much trouble with it.
It is a pretty snug fit, will be my incentive to keep the weight off.
I'm welding in plates with spacers for the front mounts and tabs for the back mounts, any motor upgrades will involve a bit of microsurgery with a cutting wheel.
Pic of front wheel mounted and inflated to 70Ppsi;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/8f03ef67.jpg)
I was planning on shaving it on the shoulders to get a bit more radius but think I will run it as is.
Cheers
Jon
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Got front wheelwell cut, shaped and tacked up today;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/6d7207d9.jpg)
Being not much of a sheetmetal worker I made a wooden form;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/8f56863e.jpg)
Drilled a hole in a piece of offcut from my build table, locked a clamp bolt down on itself on my mill/drill table, sat the piece of offcut over the bolt and drilled a heap of joining holes in an arc.
Went to local hardware & got a 25mm rounding router bit and dressed the edge.
After cutting the 2.5mm sheet I drilled a hole in the centre of it and slit into the edge of the steel every 50mm then just shaped it with a hammer.
Put a slight bend in the centre band every 25mm as I don't have aroller and tacked it together.
Front view with helmet where my head ends up;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/8bbbef42.jpg)
View from where my eyes end up;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/47d55317.jpg)
The wall is 40m (yards) away , horizontal with my build table is about 1/3 of the way up the vent (grey square)
No sit in shots as I'm home alone.
jon
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Hi Jon,
As shown in the frontal shot, if your tube rails are parallel with the earth, take another shot exposing the bottom of the frame rails. A similiar exposure on the bottom will give you a more true line of sight needed to see over the front fender. In the picture you show, it appears to me that the pilot will be looking at the sky. That was Black Lightning's problem the first time we took it out, Don Vesco riding. The only way he was able to ride the thing at all, was to look out to the side and follow the black line. The problem with that situation is that they pretty much eliminated black lines.
Best,
Max
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Jon, Remember SCTA Bike Liners now have to be built to CAR rules :?
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Wow Jon you aint hanging about I am truly impressed nice one!!
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Hi, not much to show for the day.
Went steel and helmet shopping.
Went to roll some more tube but the guy that owns the tube roller was using it.
Messed around getting the front wheelwell right forward, pulled the profiles down and cleaned up some;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/b4c7cb6e.jpg)
Max; I'm pretty comfortable I can see ok, time will tell I guess.
Sitting in it I can see at least 1' below horizontal at 40 yards, side view of mockup;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/c00a03c9.jpg)
Sparky; Rollcage still 1 1/4" though for bikes?
Oz; Thanks, you going to make the salt this year?
Cheers
jon
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Hi Jon,
If vision isn't a problem, with the aero you have, you're going to go real fast. I wish you the best.
Max
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NO!
Jon, I don't think so, Bike Liners now have to be built to Car specs---that is one of the reason lots of Bike Liners now run BUB ONLY!
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Hi Max
I've still got the issue of looking through a lot of screen at a very shallow angle.
I'm sure everyone else was pretty confident they could see fine as well, I might be chasing that alloy wheel you have yet.
Still have a lot to do to build it, test it etc, I have no idea wether it will be aero stable yet., if I get all that sorted I then need to make some horsepower!
How is the prep Black Lightning coming along, the motor work is looking good but as you said there's a lot more to it than that.
I will be cheering for you & your crew this year
Sparky; this is a problem (for me), could you do me a favor and look at 7.H.4 please?
I could be building a garden ornament
A very nervous
jon
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11/4" tubing, .090 wall.
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Yup I will be on the salt in August come hell or high water,are you going over Jon
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NO!
Jon, I don't think so, Bike Liners now have to be built to Car specs---that is one of the reason lots of Bike Liners now run BUB ONLY!
That made me look in the rule book twice. 7.H.4 page 123 in the new (Blue) book , it's still 1 1/4 inch tube 0.090" wall thickness
G
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CRS---I posted anyway even when I could not find my book----sorry for the heart burn!!! I will wait untill I can find the book next time!!
What the Hillman do car guys know anyway!!!
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Hi Max
I've still got the issue of looking through a lot of screen at a very shallow angle.
Hey Joh is there any way you can put a window outside your knees?It's all well to see straight ahead, but you also need to be able to pick up the track markers, you'd be surprised how far across the track you can get blown even in a car.Sometimes there's a bit of haze and the point on the horizon that you were looking at is not there,when it's shitty like that I've found it easier to drive via the side window.....
Amazing amount you've got done, and I think Max is right, this looks like it'll go.
And just b/w you and me Jon ...."and cleaned up some"........I think these seppos are getting to ya :wink:
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Sparky, you are actually more right than wrong. Bike liners must meet the all of the car safety rules except tube size. helmet, belts, fire equipment, parachutes all the same...
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Thanks guys
Fredvance; thanks, do you know of any good books on Bussa motors?
If it proves stable I wouldn't mind putting one in oneday, bit to go yet though.
Oz: Good stuff, much left to do? I won't be there, money I spend on the trip is money I can't use to build.
Grumm; thanks, you only read it twice, I recon I can recite it :0
How do I prove wall thickness at scrutineering?
Can I get a log book early so that someone can sign it off at a part build tech inspection?
I won't end up with any open ends.
Sparky; I should get some done now, you got me wired that I won't sleep for a week.
Thats why they put us bike guys up the back of the book, we always start reading there, that's where the cartoons are.
Goggles; past the 120 degrees? I was planning on sheeting my whole roll bar.
Hope I didn't piss Max off, I "think" I'm ok but he's built 8 more liners than I have.
I have to clean up everyday, if I don't the spageti of leads mixes with the offcuts, tools and other pieces of random dross take over and I spend 3/4 of the time trying to find the last thing I put down.
Stainless; that and 2 chutes needed at 50mph slower for some reason.
Thanks
Jin
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Goggles; past the 120 degrees? I was planning on sheeting my whole roll bar.
Hope I didn't Plymouth Max off, I "think" I'm ok but he's built 8 more liners than I have.
I have to clean up everyday, if I don't the spagetti of leads mixes with the offcuts, tools and other pieces of random dross take over and I spend 3/4 of the time trying to find the last thing I put down.
There's a couple of things I've noticed, and you will well note that I have limited experience and none in a bike liner. First of all the lower limit of your vision in these things we build is affected by the proximity of the near field, that is, in the heat of the moment, when everything is bouncing around a bit it is very difficult to focus on the lower extreme of your screen because there are things there right in front of your face and your eyes spend a bit of time focusing in and out. So if the most important part of your vision is right there at the bottom of your screen it'll be hard to get used to.Secondly your brain always likes a second point of reference.When you take off and your brain is going a million miles an hour but you're still going thirty it's handy to be able to look out the side and go "yeah, I'm in the right place...I can concentrate on other things", as soon as you go any faster those weird doubts only multiply, it only takes a fraction of a second but it helps you focus.
The greying out thing isn't a gradual thing either, it doesn't make things a little blurry it's like getting stuck between TV channels......perfect picture then SNOW.After my first low-speed test track run in the tank I thought we'd be unable to use it because of the greying out.
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Look at ISP helmet/cage padding. If you dig up the John Force interview he said after adding ISP it was the first time he EVER saw a whole run without buzzing his head! Talk to Bob, he is a huge help. Charles put me onto them as well as seeing thier products in cars such as The Flower of Scotland and the Poteet and Main liner.
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Thanks guys
Goggles; How far from the bottom of the screen do you look through?
Tman; thanks for the lead, I will try and find an Aus supplier.
Thanks
jon
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Random question for the day;
What are the pros & cons of the different harness latches?
Thanks
Jon
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Jon, you won't have room to make one of the twist latches work, your elbows won't let you do that in close quarters. I'd suggest a simple duckbill....
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Jon, you won't have room to make one of the twist latches work, your elbows won't let you do that in close quarters. I'd suggest a simple duckbill....
Stainless, can you expand on this? Jack Costella said the same thing to me and I stare ar your crotch on a daily basis with a pic you posted of the Bockscar :-o :oops:
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[quote author=Jon link=topic=11024.msg186343#msg186343 date=1332201360
Grumm; thanks, you only read it twice, I recon I can recite it :0
How do I prove wall thickness at scrutineering?
Can I get a log book early so that someone can sign it off at a part build tech inspection?
I won't end up with any open ends.
[/quote]
Jon
I've only read the 2012 SCTA book twice, the DLRA 2012 and the SCTA 2011 I know chapter and verse
I'm fairly familiar with both the car and bike sections just because
I suppose you could email Carol (there's a link on the DLRA site) and ask for a logbook
Although, I think the SCTA logbooks might be cheaper and they are almost the same
For DLRA, bring a sample of the tube and some will say OK, for SCTA, don't worry, it WILL be sonic tested because it's new
and they will also sonic test some of your welds.
And don't let Goggs call you Joh just because you live in Queensland
G
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Thanks guys
Stainless; thanks for that, there isn't a lot of elbow room & please don't send me photos of your crutch, I believe you :)
Grumm; might get a DLRA to save dramas, he calls me Joh again and I wont fix it next time my spellcheck wants to call him Giggles, "don't you worry about that"
Not much to look at today
Got the frame about 1/4 welded up;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/ff82ea0a.jpg)
Started off with the trendy TIG mini welds, cant like the look of them, if its ever tested I or one of my family will be in it, welds are going to be at least 1/8" (tube wall thickness)
In 7.H.4 it has "The roll bar shall be braced with a tube of same dimension on each side."
Does the cross above my motor cover that rule or do I need an additional brace?
Got the 2.5mm sheet for rollcage above midrail cut and crimped.
Just sitting on until finish welding & sorting out seat;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/4e86fec6.jpg)
Figure 2 and 3 in 3.B.1 shows an open corner.
I'm happy to do this on the front corners but want to fill the back corners in for fire protection.
Cheers
Jon
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Look at ISP helmet/cage padding. If you dig up the John Force interview he said after adding ISP it was the first time he EVER saw a whole run without buzzing his head! Talk to Bob, he is a huge help. Charles put me onto them as well as seeing thier products in cars such as The Flower of Scotland and the Poteet and Main liner.
Oi, this padding of which you speak is it the stuff they list as "soft outer padding for 7800 series"? That sounds like what we's after if it works 'cause once we install the HANS we are going to be REALLY stretched for room and the leeway to avoid getting buzzed.
Jon the stuff you have to use, the SFI rated padding is about as hard as a composite cricket or hockey ball, if your helmet touches it it gets buzzed.That crap that looks like the floaty things for the wading pool is fine buzz wise but for a endless list of practical reasons( all the important ones) you can't use it.
How far from the bottom of the screen?....well because we are trying to get these things we build as low(total height) as possible everyone builds them with the minimal clearances, the maximum layback, the least height over whatever is front of you. So, by the very nature of what we do I think most people are looking out the bottom of the available "window"......What I didn't mention earlier is your eyes work best pointing straight ahead....as you get to looking further and further down they don't handle bumps and vibration as well, and they tire quicker too.At least you've outed yourself as human and sat up.....when people start talkin about face down driving I get queezy.
Our visibility is pretty good on the track, but there are lots of factors in there that can make it bad. Condensation , the angle of the sun, just being tired and having sat in the hot car for 45mins sweating , with a headache....jeez I dunno....that's why I mentioned the side view as calibration.....Something hit the visor of my helmet in 2010 that I reckon was a drop of salty water from somewhere at the front of the car that had been picked up by the air coming through the nose vent.....I could see the markers but I couldn't read the tach or the GPS. that is something I'm going to try and guard against...
Rod Hadfield was foolin with something and took his eyes of the track in his Commodore soon after leaving the line at Gairdner in 03 I think and looked up to see track markers very close to the right of the car so he started driftin over to the left .........after a bit he couldn't see the markers and realised that he was OFF the left side of the track and what he'd seen were the LHS markers.... I think the story then finishes with him showing all sides of the car shortly after.....others might know the story... :wink: :wink: :wink:
For the onlookers Joh refers to "Joh Bjelke Peterson" he would equate to a Southern Governor, google him and his quotes , he was a sworn enemy of the English language.
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I've got a Simpson Pro Rage coming if you want to borrow it to see if it works in your car I can post it down Goggles.
I was surprised how hard the SFI rollbar padding was when I was getting a helmet, then they had some stuff that looked like recycled pool noodles.
Does anyone have experience with Orange Aid?;
http://www.stbarinc.com/orange-aid/index.html (http://www.stbarinc.com/orange-aid/index.html)
Or Kirkey?
http://www.kirkeyracing.com/index.php?link=details&wh=30&pn=99021 (http://www.kirkeyracing.com/index.php?link=details&wh=30&pn=99021)
They both look slightly softer than a cricket bat (baseball bat for the Sepos)
Tman; do you have a link on the stuff you've been recommended?
I couldn't find ISP in the SFI list, was thinking it might be a range rather than a manufacturer.
Thanks
Jon
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The latest SFI-45.1 High Impact Roll Bar Padding is a bit harder than the old "pool noodles" or "pipe insulation".
ISP -Innovative Safety Products- http://ispseats.com/index.html
Geo
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Hi Jon,
Why in the world would I be mad at you? I'm having a hard time getting my head around that one.
However, I'd like to make one comment that seems applicable. My dad once said to me, "Son, do you understand all that you know about that?"
Max
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Jon, What an intriguing build this ---max I like your pop already
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That orange Aid looks like an interesting option.
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Howdy Jon,
Correction. I've built 9 more streamliners than you have, as you haven't built one yet.
Granted you're tripping along at a brisk pace, generating parts faster than most solo attempts do. I'm impressed with that. However, you've yet to experience most of your challenging moments, and quite a few "Oh Shitters". Study up on periscopes. May come in handy.
#:^)#
It appears that the last couple of feet of your liner shell is quite narrow. I assume that these will be doors that open for the shoots. Have you thought about what type of shoot deployment you intend to use?
Max
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Jon,
First let me say what a great build this is.
Now for my two cents. May I suggest you keep the engine completely stock for now. You will have your hands full just learning how to get the bike down the track without having to deal with a modified or race engine.
Your bike will go very very fast with the stock setup. In the beginning, it's all about being able to start the run, make the pass and get it stopped again.
Remember, a motorcycle streamliner's native position is not uprighton it's on it's side. Having more power now is the last thing you need to thinking about now.
Respectfully from an experienced motorcycle streamliner pilot,
Gary
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Hi Jon, it's me again. Gary is right as rain. Start off with a stocky Huyabusa, and like Gary said you're gonna go real fasssst.
Don Vesco went 303 mph, the first motorcycle to go over 300 mph on gasoline. The power plant was two Yamaha engines that produced 86 hp. each, giving a total of 172 hp. Don had a pretty good aero, but I suspect not as good as yours. I feel if you can make everything work and get it all inside of that little shell, one stock Busa motor will nudge 350 mph. So like Gary says, start with that, learn how to ride the thing, (which can be pretty exciting) learn your routine on how to get in the thing, suited up, and enough stuff out of the road, i.e., handlebars, canopys, and so on. That brings back memories of the location of my outrigger lever.
Don, one of my riders, would hit the thing almost every time and the liner would flop over on it's side raising it's skids. Hartmut, my other rider, had a big laugh, but when he got in it on it's side it went. He hit the same lever. That was one of those "Oh shitters", I had to redesign and relocate the skid lever. Toggle switches on the dash were broken off many times while riders were getting in and out of the tight fit of the liner.
Remember, in your build everything has to be accessible from the outside, ignition switches, fuel shut offs, fire extenguishing.
Max
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I have to agree with everything Max says, as a person that has been in the timing stand since 1983 I have seen a lot of MC liners go down and slide for ever. As Max says the skids require a lot of design attention and mounting strength. Some like the skid some a small dia. wheel. The main thing is you want something that won't dig in. Look at what others have done and talk to them on the actuation system. Another area is the drag chute tow line length as it needs clean air so it doesn't fly or whip.Keep up the great build.
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Between this thread, Jons bike and Max's input I want to build a bike liner! Truly inspiring. Keep the photos and advice coming. There are lots of us following this thing! :cheers:
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Correction. I've built 9 more streamliners than you have, as you haven't built one.
However, you've yet to experience most of your challenging moments, and quite a few "Oh Shitters".
Exactly Max, this why I was worried that you would think i wasn't listening and not bother commenting anymore.
I think I nderstand the amount I know about motorcycle streamliners.
I recon I could write it all on an Asprin with an axe and leave room for pictures, very little.....
Jon
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Thanks guys
Max; current plan for chutes is spring loaded doors with a Stroud spring launch pilot chutes pulling out the main in a Dbag; I have a fair bit of headscratching on this still.
High Gear; I'm running an old CBR1000f engine straight out of a second hand bike to get going.
Only after I have 1/2 a clue of riding it and all the rest of the bike sorted will I start chasing more power.
Was thinking no bodywork and some training wheels a couple feet wide and 6 inches off the ground doing slow runs on a short track until I can start and stop without falling over before I put the shell on.
Lots of preflight and bailout drills getting body memory for where everything lives before I even run it.
Glen; someone told me (can't remember who) "there's two types of streamliner bikes, those that have fallen over and those that are about to".
I was going to run wheels, changed my mind to skids.
Less things to go wrong I think and smaller to fit when retracted.
I emailed and talked with Bob Stroud for a while and he sent me a chute, haven't measured the tether line but it seems LONG.
Tman; you have a pretty cool build happening, look forward to watching it's progress.
The input from people is great, I have changed several things from peoples comments already and have very little done.
Thanks
jon
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Thanks, I know from working on mine that even after you add more space these things are STILL tight!
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Jon, you're going to have a limited space back there for the chutes. About four years ago I ordered two chutes from Stroud and had them sent to the Wendover Nugget, as at the last minute I decided I needed a back up pair of chutes for the Bub Meet. I had my chutes made by Stroud, they were special made. I just assumed that they had records, and I would get an exact copy of the ones I had previously had made. When I picked them up at the casino, they weren't anything like my chutes. They were the Stroud spring loaded pilot chute type. All way to big, and wouldn't work at all. I'd already paid for them, so they were the same kind as Ack was using for Ack Attack, so I just gave them to him. My point in telling you this is that a much smaller pilot chute and deployment system should be employed. You are really going to be limited for space, and every place that you can save an inch in diameter and an inch in length, do it. I promise you won't regret it.
The first parachutes on my streamliner number three used a pyrotechnic deployment, no pilot chute. It consisted of two four inch aluminum tubes, a foot and a half long, two pistons, one for each cannon, two 12 gauge single shot shotguns (the ones with the hammer), the barrels were sawed off completely and the stocks removed. The guns were welded to a four bolt flange that bolted on the back of the cannon. The piston was four inches in diameter and used Chevy rings made out of 7075 T6 aluminum. The shot from a light load shell was removed, the shell was filled to the brim with glue from a glue gun. This provided a wad with sufficient weight to move the piston with enough velocity to spit the entire umbilical cord of the chute, and the chute some 10 ft. out the tube. I used solenoids out of automobile door locks to pull the trigger of the 12 gauge. This all worked really well, and was the smallest parachute assembly for both high speed and low speed chutes that I've built. Just food for thought. Easy to do and it works.
Max
P.S. While I was testing this contraption, I had it all in a vice, I hadn't made my piston yet, so I used a hedge ball wrapped in a sock. Fired the thing in a vice, the cannon was pointed towards the garage door. Put a heck of a dent in it. I was happy, but the landlord wasn't.
#:^)#
P.S.S. BTW, so the piston doesn't fly out the back of it you have to put a ring stop on the end of the cannon. A 1/8" lip works just fine.
P.S.S.S. Henry Louey, when inspecting the bike on the salt, made me write on the side of the liner, "CAUTION, PYROTECTNIC CHUTE DEPLOYMENT SYSTEM, STAND CLEAR"
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Max
You would never get away with using a sawn off shotgun in Aus
The gun laws are way too strict
I would say you would need a license just for pyrotechnics in Aus
G
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Max;
The chute tubes do take up a bit more room than i first hoped
I made a couple of 3" pilot chute launch tubes a while ago;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/564275c9.jpg)
The hose clamp was just for testing, the spring when relaxed goes to the end of the tube.
Depending on wether I'm short of width or length room I might make a pair of 2" ones.
As Grumm said Aus gun laws are pretty strict.
Will visit some more when I get there.
No work on bike today, firesuit turned up, Dave & I went and caught up with Ross for a while.
Random question for today;
Is aluminum ok for electrical contacts or will the salt oxidize it too much?
Jon
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I think using aluminum for electrical contacts would just be encouraging a lack of reliability and you're probably going to be chasing enough gremlins without building in some intentionally. :roll: :roll: :evil:
Pete
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Jon
you better get on with it
It looks like you've got six weeks
G :-D
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Thanks Grumm!!!, I was freaking about having 40 weeks minus Speedweek this year instead of 52.
Great news though, for this year and ongoing.
Jon
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Ok Jon, I spoke to John, the manufacturer of the Orange Aid padding today on the phone. As usual in my quest I came away smarter after our conversation! VERY helpfull gentleman! His son happens to be a surgeon so there was some pretty serious developement of the product. The Orange stuff looks well suited to what we are doing. He was also generous enough to state that the ISP padding is VERY good stuff as well. That says a lot when he will give a thumbs up to a competitors product. I am sold but that only makes my choice harder ISP or OrangeAid!?!?!?!? Orange has the better price and can be used on other bars in the cockpit.
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Thanks for the info Tman, think I will get some Orange Aid.
Pipe roller guy has been at a boat show flogging off boats so have been chasing bits.
Redid my chute tubes so that I can start on the back of the frame;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/454541dc.jpg)
Going left to right;
(1) 125mm (5") tube that Stroud supplied my chute Dbag for.
(2) Made a twin tube out of black steel, where I need to run my tubes there's not 250mm (10") of height.
Canned it for 2 reasons, was never going to keep the inside finish good enough that the bag would slip easily & was a bit too small to slide the bag in easily.
(3) Made a twin tube out of stainless, top tube is 125mm wide tapering to 150mm (6") the whole thing has about an inch of taper lengthwise, (25mm) "1 bigger. Gives me a bit more clearance the end I need it more & Dbag should come out a bit easier.
I know......chute tubes are meant to be round, the chute I have is new like me and doesn't know that so please don't tell it.
Been mocking up front suspension and steering with rosejoints, wood & curtain rod, think its working now.
I will post pics up when it's a bit more together.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, Just a little input. The Team Vesco streamliner has the chutes that basically lay in a tray with the air fired pilots in their own tube, one high speed and one low speed chute. The high speed pilot has a 40 ft. long tow (teather) line and it pulls the main canopy out into clean air. Look up teamvescoracing.com for a lot of the car info. Keep up the good build. I like 99% of what you have done.
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Thanks Glen; I will have a look, I haven't seen that site yet.
I'm interested in the 1%, might not be smart enough to change it but interested:)
Thanks
Jon
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I don't like the plating around the roll bar to be welded 100% along the bottom. As I mentioned earlier it can be bolted on and if needed the roll bar cutter can be used in an emergency. It will also give you extra room to make adjustments to the belts,and padding etc during the build.Having access to anything is in your favor.
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Thanks Glen, I haven't welded the sheet on yet.
Main reasons I was going all the way down are;
Fire protection, it's not much use having a firewall if it's not sealed, I'm going to try and track down fire resistant foam strip to go around the main hoop to seal against the body for fire and smoke protection.
Impact protection, want to line the whole drivers compartment with material strong enough to keep stuff out if it goes wrong, the fiberglass shell will offer me no protection.
Torsional stiffness, sheeting in a frame adds a lot to torsional stiffness for the weight, I want the front and back wheels to be able to communicate with each other without the frame putting it's twist on the conversation.
Your comments and Goggles about visibility have got me thinking though.
Thanks
jon
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Thanks Glen, I haven't welded the sheet on yet.
Main reasons I was going all the way down are;
Fire protection, it's not much use having a firewall if it's not sealed, I'm going to try and track down fire resistant foam strip to go around the main hoop to seal against the body for fire and smoke protection.
Impact protection, want to line the whole drivers compartment with material strong enough to keep stuff out if it goes wrong, the fiberglass shell will offer me no protection.
Torsional stiffness, sheeting in a frame adds a lot to torsional stiffness for the weight, I want the front and back wheels to be able to communicate with each other without the frame putting it's twist on the conversation.
Your comments and Goggles about visibility have got me thinking though.
Thanks
jon
Lots of good points there Jon. I have listened to Glen talking about extraction many times, my thought is to add cut-outs in the plating so the jaws can get in for a good bite. Any thoughts on this Glen?
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Your comments and Goggles about visibility have got me thinking though.
Thanks
jon
....because of the inability to shift your weight, which you have already mentioned there is a greater sense of security in what you can see. Plenty of silly low-speeders have damaged bike liners for reasons that are related to the low speed handling.Feeling right in the drivers seat helps a driver concentrate better on the job at hand........try walking through your house at normal speed looking through a piece of glad wrap(Saran wrap) tube, you're off kilter, defensive and expecting the unknown to lurch in front of you.With everything else that's going on you don't want to feel like that when you're strapped in.
I agree with your reasons for plating in, but Glen has more experience than anyone at seeing and dealing with the results so his opinion is gospel.
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Regarding the integrity of the plating, round or nicely radiused holes can be cut thru the plating without significantly reducing it's shear strength, to allow visibility or access. Acrylic or polycarbonate windows could be used to cover these holes if sealing against fumes is deemed to be an issue. Acrylic can be broken out in an emergency to allow access to rollbar tubes; polycarbonate can't. Just some thoughts from an interested observer.
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All this talk of rockets, shot guns & hand grenades deploying chutes is a little out there but you still have to conform to rule 3-N on page 34 of the salt bible.
If you're going fast enough to use a chute & the pilot spring is loaded, there's enough air going past the vehicle to deploy the thing.
Don't try to over engineer things, remember the Kiss Theory.
Some years ago we were on the receiving end of a Vesco chute rocket at the start line, luckily nobody was hurt.
Sid.
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Hi
Goggles; will check out reliable options for sealing the firewall to the body and make a decision from there re plating or not.
Koncretekid; Agree with you re holes with a decent radius in the corners, the acrylic is a good idea thanks.
Sid; This thing is as KISS as i cam make it, I'm going spring launch pilots, as above the only question is wether they're 50 or 75mm (2 or 3") depending on the shape of the area they end up. If it wasn't for the need to deploy a chute automatically at 50 degrees I wouldn't have anything more complex than a pull cable.
The plate on the rollbars will be one of the last things welded on so have plenty of time to navelgaze about it.
Cheers
jon
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Got the motor squared in and mounts made and tacked in today.
Front mount;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/b3eac0e4.jpg)
Made it this long to spread the load over more of the tue and to tie in with the diagonal brace coming from the front, will see how much room I have to run a brace from here down to where the rear motor mount/swingarm mount cross tube goes.
Rear motor mounts;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/d6cabca3.jpg)
Tube is that hight so that swingarm directly pushes on it, the rear mounts are under tension so a little extra length won't effect them.
The washers between the mount and motor will be replaced by a machine spacer and tacked on so that it can't get lost.
I was going to mount the swingarm pivot concentric with the output shaft but it will be a pain to change ratios, swingarm pivot will be in line between axle and countershaft at ride height so chain slack shouldn't change much over an inch of travel either way.
Got the drivers compartment tub crimped and sitting in;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/868fa00e.jpg)
Had state election today so had to vote, didn't give us much of an option, they were all poloticians.
Cheers
jon
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Hi Jon,
Your build is really looking good. I like it. What do you have in mind for your rear swing arm? The E-Z Hook machine had to go through a major frame reconstruction this last couple of years due to frame flexing, which caused ill handling at speed. Another bike similiar to your construction was a Vesco machine. He was having the same problem. His remedy was to put roller bearings on the end of the two swing arm tubes which lay against flat steel runners attached to the frame. This helped, but didn't solve the problem, as the flex of the swing arm under power was then transmitted to the frame, and the frame only slowed down the flex, but didn't stop it as the frame flexed a little bit. When I built my streamliner Don Vesco told me to build all that stuff back there as strong as you think it won't bend, and then add more braces.
A couple of more questions. What type of system are you planning to use to prevent bump steering? Are you planning to leave enough room for later turbo charging the Busa motor? Will you be driving off, or are you going to be pushed up to speed? Will you be using the same tire on the rear as on the front?
Max
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Thanks Max
Swingarm will be fairly conventional box section, I machined up pivots and mount bosses yesterday but the piece of 20mm bright bar I had for pivot shaft has turned up missing :| so no tacking that up till Monday.
The swinarm pivot shaft will run the full width of the bike with an extra pair of bosses that will be gusseted from the midrail all the way down to the bottom rail to try and spread the load and push on the strongest parts of the frame. You can see both rails in the rear engine mount pic.
I'm trying to do something a little different with the front wheel action (+ I don't have the skills to make a hub centre steering), I think I have it working but no pics until it's made out of something better than scrap bits of wood, curtain rod and techscrews.
I'm planning room for a turbo and intercooler for the Busa motor, anything between the motor and fire bottles will be able to find a new bit of realestate if needs.
I hope to drive up, I won't be making near the torque you are but a 6 speed box will help, I'm a bit winky on getting towed.
Yes, same size front and rear tyres, the wheel will bolt up from different sides front and rear so a single spare can be driving or driven and get the rotational direction right.
Thanks
jon
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I'm a bit winky on getting towed.
what about being pushed?
nice build.
bf
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Sorry Jon, I don't understand your automatic deployment or the 50 deg thing but I guess I don't need to. Just didn't wana see a mate get led astray. I don't have the time to follow other peoples builds too much, all of my free time & half of my sleep time is spent on my liner.
Looking good, stay focused.
Sid.
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Hi
Saltwheels; not too keen on that either, currently don't have structural strength back there to push, The frame going back there will take the pull from a chute will be fine. When I get it settled and start chasing some higher gearing I will see how I go.
Sid; thanks, it's a bike thing, 7.H.13 auto chute at 50 degrees with a closed tail and 80 degrees with an open tail.
Do you have a build diary going?
Thanks
jon
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Not much building today, had Queensland branch DLRA meeting, was the first time I'd met most of the guys.
Shaped up the gussets for the extra swingarm pivot bosses;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/f053ddd8.jpg)
Made out of 5mm (3/16"), follows the inside curve of the ellipse and will be stitch welded.
Cleanup and bit more shopping tomorrow before back to work on Tuesday.
When Speedweek was cancelled due to high tide at Lake Gairdner I set myself the target of getting the frame and suspension arms tacked up.
Got close, weekends and evenings from now, about 40 weeks to Speedweek.
Cheers
Jon
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Jon,
It looks to me like your swing arm pivots will be midway between lower and upper horizontal frame tubes. I would add diagonal tubes in front of the swing arm pivots upward to upper frame tubes and downward to lower frame tubes to stiffen up the pivot points. In other words, triangulated to carry the forces into the main frame. Keep the swingarm movement to a bare minimum to keep chain length consistent (I guess that's obvious).
As for center hub steering, it sounds to me like you have the expertise to make, get made, or borrow one, as they are (I believe) considered to be the best solution, and should be easier to fit now, than to try to retro-fit later. Maybe someone with more knowledge will chime in with a simple design, which I, too, would like to see.
Tom
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Ok, I see your bike liner rule, I like the way it's written, "when it's laid over" not if!
No build diary on my liner. It's a AA/BFS 4WD with a 605 inch KB600, plan on being on the salt next year, a year late.
Goggles has a couple of pics he might share with you.
Sid.
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Thanks guys;
Tom; Agree fully about trying to spread the forces back into a stronger part of the frame, they're isn't much room back there for gussets beyond the ones I've shown. The motor is only a couple mm from the crosstube.
Them along with a fairly solid swingarm pivot shaft at 20mm (13/16") I hope will be up to the task.
I originally looked at a hub centre setup, hopefully I can get my front end tacked up over Easter, if it doesn't move the way I want I will looking at it again I guess.
Sid; I will probably test the trigger mechanism a few times while learning to ride it.
Sounds like an interesting build will harass Goggles for pics.
Thanks
jon
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tried to send you some pics....the bigbizzo email address doesn't like my email ( fourdoorshitbox) "contains profanity "....if you have another email let me know..... :wink: :wink: :wink:
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Only work email sorry Goggles, might have to get anotherone happening.
Will PM you Dave's
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I'm not surprised, mine wasn't happy with fourdoor in either.
PM me your email Jon & I'll send you a quick skwiz.
Sid.
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I'm not surprised, mine wasn't happy with fourdoor in either.
PM me your email Jon & I'll send you a quick skwiz.
Sid.
Thanks Sid; fully sick Bro, sweet as build eh.
For the non kiwi's (including me) that means "really nice project you have there sir with some tidy looking workmanship" I think.
I never have been able to understand how thongs could be called Jandals.
Cheers
jon
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John
have you thought about using an earls fork type front end .
Much easier to fabricate and easy to adjust trail. Have a look at he Buddfab liner front end.
I would use this if I didn't have my hubcenter done.
cheers Bones
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John
have you thought about using an earls fork type front end .
Much easier to fabricate and easy to adjust trail. Have a look at he Buddfab liner front end.
I would use this if I didn't have my hubcenter done.
cheers Bones
I'm going to dig out my alfoil hat again Bones.
Im going monoshock via linkage to try and keep the width down as I have a 5" wide tyre.
I'm also playing with the converging angles and lengths of the bottom links,I want the bottom of the tyre to shift opposite direction to the turn to shift the balance into the turn some.
At higher speed/lower steering angles I don't think it will do much but I've convinced myself that it well help me get up off the skids.
As with the rest of my build, totally unproven.
Hope to have the steering action and swingarm in steel this weekend, then start on the shock linkages.
Cheers
Jon
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Jon,
Love your build and you are really "getting at it!" I don't know if you ever happen to look at other parts of this site but I was just reading a post from Dan Warner regarding a missed record and there is a site that got posted that may be very interesting to you.
http://www.counterman.net/vanceb.htm
There are some great build pics of the build of the really neat HD liner that Vance Breese built and also read his comments when he crashed.
Rex
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Thanks Rex
I'm pretty committed to being at Lake Gairdner in 2013 so I need to maintain momentum.
Opportunity presented itself about 18 months ago that I had some free time and needed a distraction, I started sketching the shell, reading a bit if stuff and working out what size major components were and working from there.
I did see the work that Dan Warner was putting into getting the record corrected, nice to see that people care enough to get the history right.
Thanks for the link, very interesting read.
Thanks
Jon
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I think you nailed the Kiwi twang there Jon.
I dunno about the jandal thing either but they're called flip flop's over here on the big island. A thong is a whole nuther animal here that goes up the butcrak.
Sid.
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C`MON, Sid! They`re called Jandals `cos that was the name of the company that made `em first. I preferred the Para Rubber ones myself. Good Grief that was aloooong time ago....
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Sounds like the Ezy Hook front end which is similar to an old LCR road racing sidecar, but with a much narrower tire.
The top and bottom pivots are offset which gives the contact patch in the center of the tire, but when you turn the wheel it lays over a little bit.
cheers Bones
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Sounds like the Ezy Hook front end which is similar to an old LCR road racing sidecar, but with a much narrower tire.
The top and bottom pivots are offset which gives the contact patch in the center of the tire, but when you turn the wheel it lays over a little bit.
cheers Bones
Like I said I'm not that good at explaining things sorry, think budfab with the top bearing on a rocker and monoshock, bottom arms shorter so they have a smaller arc to exaggerate the lean.
The lean is generated by the side of the yoke on the inside of the turn moving back towards the frame mount so the link is pushing it away lateraly, the outer side of the yoke moves further away from the frame mount longitudinally so the link is pulling it closer lateraly, the top pivot can't move sideways so the yoke and wheel lean.
Rake is calculated by drawing a line through the top pivot and a point where the bottom 2 links would intersect if they were extended.
Trail is measured as normal.
Hope to have pics over the weekend.
Cheers
jon
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Met with Paul from Gazi Suspension today re shocks.
http://www.gazisuspension.com/products.html (http://www.gazisuspension.com/products.html)
They are Brisbane based and make good quality Twinshocks, they are just starting to get into monoshocks.
After talking weights, suspension travel and linkage ratios he is going to see if they can make something to suit.
Cheers
jon
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Hi
Does anyone know of a Push button FIA approved Isolation switch?
The FIA approved switches are sprk free and have a second set of contacts to cut the ignition.
Im looking for a cross between this Push Botton Isolator Switch (http://www.thetoolboxshop.com/0-605-45-250a-rated-at-24v-emergency-push-button-battery-isolator-2316-p.asp) and this FIA Isolator Switch (http://mcgillmotorsports.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=977).
I want a push button so that i can mount it flush with the body at the back of my canopy so anyone can just hit it and cut everything, I'm planning on having a similar flush mount push button that works the fire system.
I can find push button twin contact isolation switches but figure if I'm buying one I should try and find a FIA one if they exist, if it's spark free it shoudl also be fairly salt resistant in the contacts.
thanks
jon
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Jon,,,have you thought of feeding the voltage thru a push button switch which is normally closed, to an electro magnetic switch, then to a relay , then to all your 'lektrics ? once the button is pressed,,it'll kill the power to the relay switch,,which would drop out, and stay out.
Well done on your build by the way mate, lightning fast construction,
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Jon,
See if you can find 3M brand Fire Barrier Moldable Putty. It is great for filling small firewall voids.
Gary
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Thanks guys
GenyShovel; your supercharged 250 sounds and looks awesome, hope to catch you at the lake in May, I think it's going to be a bit fresh.
I started off with something similar to what you mentioned when I heard that the isolator switch needs to cut the motor as well as isolate the battery. Trying to make my build to KISS rules, if I don't have something it can't break and I don't need to buy a spare one.
I like the MOSFET switches that Tony showed in Wayno's electrical thread but they're a bit spendy for an isolate switch, if I can't find a push button FIA isolator I think I will go with a key one.
How is the Hill these days? I did School of the Air on a property between Tandou and the river when I was young, then 1 year at North School before we moved to SA. I came back and mechaniced (is that a word) at Tandou for a couple years (about 18 years ago I think going from the age of my kids).
Gary; thanks for that, I will track some down. Have you used any strip foam type fireproof material?
I want something that I can put a line around the inside of my body to seal the gap between it and the main hoop. They must make something for sealing fireproof doors in buildings.
Cheers
jon
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Thanks guys
Gary; thanks for that, I will track some down. Have you used any strip foam type fireproof material?
I want simething that I can put a line around the inside of my body to seal the gap between it and the main hoop. They must make somethingbfor sealing fireproof doors in buildings.
Cheers
jon
Jon, here is a tip Glen told me about. Make sure the body/firewall are sealed AND ATTACHED solidly together. If the skin comes loose fire can get past the sealer into the cockpit or fluids can seep forward upon decelleration. I take everything Glen says seriously.
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Thanks guys
Gary; thanks for that, I will track some down. Have you used any strip foam type fireproof material?
I want simething that I can put a line around the inside of my body to seal the gap between it and the main hoop. They must make something for sealing fireproof doors in buildings.
Cheers
jon
Jon, here is a tip Glen told me about. Make sure the body/firewall are sealed AND ATTACHED solidly together. If the skin comes loose fire can get past the sealer into the cockpit or fluids can seep forward upon decelleration. I take everything Glen says seriously.
Thanks Tman, I take Glen's advice seriously too, he has a good point about cutting the cage which leaves me relying on either some sort of seal between the main hoop and the body only or a bolt on section of roll cage skin in the corner that can be unbolted if they need to cut the cage
Mine won't be too bad in the bottom 1/2 as the rider's compartment tub will be fully sealed up to the midrail height from the friewall forward past my feet, i still want to seal between it and the body though so that stuff can't come forward under the rider's compartment under deceleration .
Thanks
jon
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He meant keeping the panels on in the case of an engine explosion. Sudden poof, body panels separate from the firewall seal if they are not attached and fire/fluids can get through between gap in firewall and body panels.
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Trent- an event such as you just described could ruin your whole day.
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Trent- an event such as you just described could ruin your whole day.
That is the most understated thing posted today!~
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Trent- an event such as you just described could ruin your whole day.
That is the most understated thing posted today!~
Youd probably abort that run anyway :-o
It's that sort of hiccup that was part of my thinking of having the whole rollcage and drivers compartment tinned in.
That and my bodywork itself will offer no protection in if turns to custrard.
Then Glen pointed out that i was making it difficult to cut the top off if needed......
Cheers
jon
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Hi Jon,
You mentioned in one of your posts that you are going to actuate the fire bottles externally with a push button switch. I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure that the rules used to state that any electrical actuated solenoid, like say a pin on a fire bottle, had to have a back up mechanical way to pull the pin. I think it was the same with parachutes. The idea being that if there was a fire going on, the mechanical pull cable would last long enough to operate the fire bottles, where an electrical system would pretty much melt and become inoperable before the safety people could get to you.
One other thing about the fire system. A ten pound bottle, if fired in the cockpit, wouldn't allow the pilot to breathe. Don Vesco wouldn't ride my steamliner without a shut off valve that he could reach easily to shut off a discharged fire extenguishing bottle to the cockpit. He had a problem one time when he did have to fire the fire bottle. No problem with the fire, but he did have a problem with holding his breath until he could get the thing shut down, and the canopy lid up.
Best,
Max
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Jon,
Can you use the fire seal from a safe to seal your firewall? Liberty uses stuff that expands 3X when subjected to fire.
Dale
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Thanks guys
Max; fire system is fully manual, the outside release will be a mechanical pushbutton the works directly on the bottle. Pretty easy to do with the bottles vertical.
Parachutes will be manual release, spring launch pilots, the tilt switch requirement is the only reason I'm putting a solenoid on the main.
The filling cabin with smoke and/or foam is why I was looking for a forced air helmet, 2x10lb bottles of foam with 6 nozzles, 2 of them in the rider's compartment will have 6.66lb in the rider's compartment (20/(6/2)).
A mortorycle streamliner needing the same amount of fire agent in the rider's compartment as a full cabin car seems a little excessive but I guess it's a case of don't have to like the rules just need to comply with them.
Dale; thanks for that will check it out.
Cheers
jon
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Less than optimal day today.
The smoke came out of a few components on the main board of my TIG.
Found out that Hayabusa output sprocket is about 10mm more from centerline than I thought.
20mm wider swingarm wasn't going to fit in the body so shortened swingarm by 25mm and changed adjuster system.
Worked out that my swingarm angle was now a bit too steep.
Dropped the crosstube that holds the back motor mounts and swingarm mounts by about 16mm (5/8").
End of the day, new TIG and swingarm tacked up by not mounted;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/572f2c43.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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Must have been a Lucas Tig? :-D
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If it's a brand name machine new or rebuilt boards are usually readily available. This is often the reason it pays to blow out the welding machines on a regular basis. The metallic dust created in welding conditions isn't conductive to long life of electronics.
Pete
(Who doesn't blow out his machines often enough.) :roll: :roll: :|
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Note to self, blow out welder when I get home.
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For those who are now going to do the dirty deed, and it is, the best way is to unplug the machine, take off the cover and then do a thorough job getting into all the little nooks and crannies. You won't believe the amount of dust that's worked its way in there.
Pete
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Jon, back to firebottles, put a small (1mm)single nozzle in your small cockpit. If you can design a manual shut off control in the loop as Max suggested it is a great idea. Multiple nozzles will put too much agent in and run out quickly. I'll try to remember to take a pic of Max's shutoff when I'm over there mid next week.
Scooter is looking good, keep up the good work.
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As Peter was saying on the newer welding machines that have control boards, cleaning them on occasion is a good idea. If you can take the boards out easily you can actually wash them with soap and water then dry with a hair drier. Another thing is to plug them in and out a couple of times to clean the contacts between the board and its holder. When I ran the maintenance dept at a big CNC machine shop washing boards was a standard operation on Saturdays when we were doing PM. The other way to prevent "smoking" welders is to own one that is so old that it does not have any of this fancy control board stuff, like my 1960s Airco 460 amp unit I bought from North American surplus in 1980! Weights a ton, literally, but just keeps laying the beads.
Jon, you build is really starting to take shape, and I have to say it is inspirational for my part as it is making me get off my fat a$$ to get my lakester started.
Rex
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Doin well there Jon I aint suprised smoke came out of your welder not many people work as quick as you do! a touch of hyper activity I reckon or very strong erm Coffee.
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Thanks guys
It was no surprise to me the smoke came out of the TIG, it is one of the cheap fleabay 4 in 1 things.
I bought it a couple years ago cos i wanted to teach myself to TIG, for different reasons it just sat in the box until I started this a couple months ago, plugged it & nothing....
Pulled the cover off and was surprised how poor the quality control was, boards with big bows in them with an offcut of plastic wedged in to stop it vibrating, fan housing broken even though the packaging was undamaged.
I found the problem was a poorly crimped wire and new it was only a matter of time that it was going to die. When the smoke came out I pulled the cover off and decided to cut my losses, might fleabay it in case someone wants parts.
Bought a Weldmaster 200p (http://www.weldmaster.com.au/products/mig/tig/i-tig-200p-vrd/) from a shop a few blocks away, he uses one himself and it's got 3 years waranty.
Tman; I think it was made by Ruucas Ercectrical
Peter Jack; i think I might give it to the local night school for they're electronics class, used to blow gear out regularly when growing up, our shed was dirt floor and it was a weekly ritual.
Stainless; Thanks, for some reason I thought the rules said 2 nozzles in the riders compartment, it doesn't, I will go back to one. I was plumbing my fire system in a continuos loop so everything coul feed from both ends, will check with tech here if I'm allowed to run a tap.
Is much happening to Black Lightning other than the engines? Would be great to see a thread on it again, the detail and finish is artwork.
Rex; Just water with something like dishwashing soap?
I think I must have bought my MIG/stick in about 1982, to adjust amperage it's got a jump cable that you swap between plugs, it's a SAFMIG mono bl. I toasted the capacitors in it about 5 years after I bought it making a scrub clearing blade for a bulldozer, replaced them with some bigger ones and a couple diodes and it's done the job since, it's worth fixing if it dies.
Hook in, today may be the best "one day" you have.
Oz; Thanks, I'm lucky they hadn't discovered ADHD or whatever it is when I was a kid, they would have pumped me full of pills, this project has got me going again, I hope to do some test runs on Lake Gairdner next year, I recon moving it from late March to mid January is a conspiracy started by Dr Goggles :evil:
Best go and do something.
jon
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Hi
I'm confused, that's nothing new.
Ross's fault this time (he pointed it out to me anyway), I have the SCTA rules because the DLRA rules are same but a year delay. (yep were a bit steady down under but it's handy to have a years warning on changes)
So, Ross tells me "wait there's more" and mentions Bub and FIM.
Is Bub run under FIM rules?
If I build my bike to suit SCTA and Bub rules am I covered or is FIM a third set of rules. (I can't read French)
Are any of the rules mutually exclusive between groups so you can't comply with both at the same time?
Not saying I'm going to get to get to Bonneville or Bub but I want to build it so I could if I ever bought a lotto ticket.
I found the 2012 Bub rules this am and at a quick look couldn't find any showstoppers, appears SCTA is stricter.
Thanks
Jon
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"But wait theres more", :-D, BUB also run under the AMA rules,,, all these orginisations with their differing eeffin` interruptions are a pain in the butt, :|
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There is an English version of FIM rules. The 2012 BUB website is up and running. They usually have a link to the FIM rules.
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I found the BUB rules Wobbly, their link goes to the FIM site and I couldnt find anything to do with speed trials.
Got my swingarm welded up and wanted to fiddle with the swingarm angle so I needed to get a wheel on an axle.
I had the front hub nearly finished but wanted to narrow it up to let me make the front axle caps wider to help support my bottom control arms.
Had to redo the bearing bores, I'm always winky about them but I have a system that works for me;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/00655c68.jpg)
I set my dial indicator on the toolpost and get right on size a couple mm small then come up with light 1/4mm (1/2mm diameter) cuts on power feed, to keep the depth(length) right I put a Niko mark on the bed and remember what the longitudinal travel is on the handle, when it's near the niko mark I watch the longitudinal travel handle and pull out powerfeed when it's right.
First time I've used a rotary table, I got a 6" one with some dividing plates, there was a lot if double checking and was pretty happy when I counted back to the first hole from the last one and it lined up;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/b592f20b.jpg)
I'm running 2 x 6804 hybrid ceramic bearings each side, im using the same bearings front and back so I only have to carry one set of spares.
Bit of fiddling and I got the swingarm angle at 9.5 degrees, a bit less than I would run on a road/trackday bike but probably a bit steeper than I would have liked;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/784b0c06.jpg)
Haven't made the back hub yet, still working on a brake disk mount that will let me take the rim off, I want the sprocket and wheel to both bolt directly to the hub for KISS.
Cheers
Jon
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Must have been a Lucas Tig? :-D
Long ago I told the proprietor of a local restoration shop about a friend swapping a Chevy v8 into a Jaguar. He said the man should have kept the Jag engine and swapped in the Chevy wiring. He had a wall poster saying the reason the British drank warm beer was because they had Lucas refrigerators.
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:cheers:
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Hi
Glen and I have been talking offline about how to sheet my firewall and rollbars and have it so that it can be cut off if required, this what we came up with;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/58e54261.jpg)
(at least I think it is, make sense to you Glen)
The corners will be radiused, about 20mm overlap all the way around for bolting and sealing flange, sorry for the crap pic.
My Pro Rage HANS eventually got shipped by Simpson yesterday & I have 3 sticks of Orange Aid rollbar padding on its way.
When it is all here I can put the rollbar padding in and all my gear on and finalize my seat and belts.
Will take HANS and Orange Aid down to Lake Gairdner if any of the guys there want to see if the Pro Rage will work in their vehicle.
Cheers
jon
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Jon you are far enough along that you should consider a rotisserie.
As your build progresses it would save you much more time than it would take to build one.
Check the www.Target550.com build diary. Post 01-15-2012_156 and 01-30-2012_157.
The principles are quite well shown in those two posts. Your build is not very heavy
and it wouldn't have to be too stout.
Just consider it. Listen to G'Pa FREUD.
FREUD
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Buy two cheap engine stands and make heads that mount to the frame. I have done this and it works great
Jon you are far enough along that you should consider a rotisserie.
As your build progresses it would save you much more time than it would take to build one.
Check the www.Target550.com build diary. Post 01-15-2012_156 and 01-30-2012_157.
The principles are quite well shown in those two posts. Your build is not very heavy
and it wouldn't have to be too stout.
Just consider it. Listen to G'Pa FREUD.
FREUD
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will heat from the headers affect the fire bottles?
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Tanks guys
Freud and Tman; I built a table about 700mm (2'3") high and 900mm(3') wide so it's not too bad to work on.
Saltwheels; I'm going to wrap the the headers to keep the heat down, if it's not enough I will get a blanket.
Dave picked up some steel for me yesterday;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/092f27c4.jpg)
Today I turned it into a blank for the back hub;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/3d0f63c9.jpg)
My little lathe has a decent throw but inly a small chuck so had to bore them on the mill.
The bottom flange is for the brake disk, it will have an adaptor bolt up to it as the flange has to be small enough for the wheel to go over it.
Centre flange is for the wheel mount, wheel bolts up from the bottom side.
Top flange is the sprocket carrier, it's that thick so I can machine a step in it to locate the sprocket.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, the sizes aren't shown, keep in mind the smallest rear sprocket you can mount will determine your speed capability unless you leave room for a jackshaft. I don't remember if you mentioned one for later. The lakester can go down to a 24, with that combo a 20-24 busa will be limited to around 357 MPH at 0 slip
I attached our speed calculator, it works for bikes and cars for you and all to play with. To add your 600, just copy the sheet and then change the gearing numbers. Be sure to put your new Primary Ratio in the calculator. (Car guys, your primary ratio is 1, the drive and driven is the teeth on your pumpkin or just use your ratio)
Axel Sjogren, one of our team members put this together... he also has driven our lakester 208 on the short course. :-D
have fun :cheers:
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Thanks Stainless
I'm going to run a 30 tooth back sprocket with the CBR1000 motor, that coupled with some sprockets I have coming via Oz (the supplier wouldn't ship outside the EU) will give me from 165 through 25 in about 13mph steps.
Pretty sure it won't pull 250, the cbr1000f (hurricane) was rated at 123hp at the crank when they new.
I don't plan on doing anything to the motor for the first year.
The sprocket mounting flange "should" be wide enough for me to machine it again to fit up a sprocket flange to suit the Hayabusa chainline on a smaller PCD.
I've asked the distance from centerline to centre of chainline on a Bussa and have 4 answers to choose from.
If people are bored and have a Bussa laying around I would appreciate a some measurements so I can see where the majority says, I don't know much about Bussas, they may change between models.
I have a CAD model of a Bussa motor that I used to get the major dimensions but it doesn't have an output shaft sprocket.
Thanks
jon
Thanks
jon
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They don't change between models, just 4 of us giving our interpretation of what we see
I may be able to get a busa club guy in your area to drop by pm me your addy or ask here
http://www.australian-hayabusa-club.com/MyBB/index.php, lots of QLD members
The earlier gsxr750-1100 have a much smaller sprocket mount than the busa, busa limits you to a 35 sprocket,1100 a 30, maybe even smaller, but i have a 30 on the 750
Also there is an overdrive gear set available for the busa , TTS or Robinson supply them , 5th 7% od is less than reliable as it only replaces one of the 2 gears, 6th 12% od replaces both sides
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Thanks Maj
I think the easiest to get measurements to give me what I'm after are;
Distance between swingarm inner faces.
Distance between swingarm inner face and centerline of sprocket.
What's the biggest front sprocket you can run on a Bussa?
Changing ratios by only changing one gear sounds kind of wrong.......
Not saying your wrong, saying it sounds very wrong thing to do.
Thanks
jon
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Hi Jon, I hope I may be able to help with the Busa wheel measurement. The Suzuki TL1000 and the Busa share the same wheel. Part number variations pertain to paint colour only.
I've measured a wheel fitted to a bike with wheel correctly torqued etc. The centreline of the wheel (using rim not tyre) to centre line of the sprocket is 115mm. Swing-arms on these bikes are not symmetrical at either the pivot or axle end.
I'm enjoying the build. Cheers.
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Thats the way they come.... tooth angle is changed to have more teeth in the same diameter but its a compromise as gears seem to pit on the faces , and about 1/2 the guys i know that have run them either don't put OD 5th in or take it out when they find pitting
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Thanks guys
RGN; See your in Aus, you around the Brisbane area? Thanks for the measurements.
Maj; Are the guys getting much service time before they run into pitting?
I haven't looked into Busa gearing yet, can you run a 20 tooth front?
Not a lot to show for today;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/0db3ab2b.jpg)
Turned up including bearing bores, still have to do bolt patterns for wheelstuds, sprocket bolts & brake disk carrier.
I think there's enough material in the sprocket mount flange to remachine later for the extra offset for a Busa chainline and a smaller sprocket. (no fingers crossed smilie)
Cheers
Jon
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No Jon, down in Melbourne. One day I'll move up further north... the cold and I don't agree:-)
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Jon, yes a busa can run a 20 front. We have run that size with our 20 inch rear wheels. That why it was on the calculator for max speed.
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Thanks for that calcualtor stainless!
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switching gears a little here, a few pictures of the fire extinguishing shutoff valve in Max's scooter that I promised.
The vavle design protects it from accidental shutoff, the first pic is on
The second is off. The is not the primary actuator, it just allows rider intervention when the system is activated and the operator does not want to pass out from lack of oxygen, it allows some regulation of the amount of agent.
I would personally only have one nozzle with a small hole in this size cockpit. When you fill most of the vehicle's cockpit space with rider/driver you don't need all of the agent to spray out quickly. The small single also makes the agent last a lot longer. I have been thinking of a way to incorperate a shutoff into the Lakester, just have not figured it out yet.
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Jon, as you're thinking about a rotisserie, think about this. :-D It doesn't have to be extravagant. Wayno
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You can also do this. Wayno
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Jon, Do you ever sleep? Amazing how much you have done in such a short time. Gets me motivated.
This site has some good drivetrain and speed calculators for bikes. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/gearspeed.html
Has a chain/sprocket calculator also. You can even calculate tire growth and wheel spin.
John
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Wayno.........brilliant on the plywood for the bike frame.
That's good thinking. The plywood is strong and the bike weight is not out of the question.
No doubt it will serve a good purpose.
If it is built early on in the assembly it will be most useful.
FREUD
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Thanks guys
RGN; The most sought after real-estate in Melbourne is in Queensland :)
Stainless; thanks for the calculator, I will have a play with it at work, I don't have Internet other than yuppiephone @ home.
Max and Stainless; thanks for sharing, I will add this to mine and drop to one nozzle. As you say by the time you fit a rider in one of these there's not a lot of airspace, they're all different other than being tight everywhere.....
Wayno; I saw that, top idea, hopefully my shape wont cone to rest on its roof but i can you that for my laying over bailout drills. How is your build coming along, it's one of the ones I hope to see an update on when I log on.
John; Thanks for the kind words, I sleep plenty; on the train to and from work is good for 40 minutes each way.
It probably looks like I get a bit done cos it's a fairly simple build and I only work on one thing at a time while I think about and collect bits for the next bit.
While I'd like a rotisserie for a big project I probably won't end up with one for this.
There's only about a dozen welds that I can't get to easily on the table and I don't have a lot of room.
I'm working in a double garage with a post in the centre, and another in the middle of the doors.
The build table goes up one side of the centre with little lathe, mill, vice, pedestal grinder and storage racks between it and that side wall and a small bench at the end.
The other side back wall has my rollcab, MIG with TIG on top, storage rack full of plastic tub with tools in them then an old bookshelf with consumables on it intrudes in to the laundry.
The the other side wall has steel leaning against it and the body plug sitting on a couple of camp chairs, Dave's rollcab, his CBR1000f M bike and other projects in there quite often see us with the cars parked in the street and working in the driveway.
Under the build table is Streamliner bits, home for the dropsaw and other "useful" items that need a home.
The tubing for the frame hangs in the roof of the BBQ area, homemade folder sits next to the rainwater tank and it's invariably raining every time we need to fold something.
Short version is I don't have enough room for the table and rotisserie at the same time.
My cousin was moving house last weekend and getting rid of a frame we made up to support a couple of 135hp outboards while he refurbished his Sharkcat, bonus, will be the start of a trolley for the body plug so I can work on it outside, it has a bit of work before it is good enough to make a mould
Cheers
Jon
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I have used this calculator and it works exceptionally well.
http://www.cosportbikeclub.org/misc/SpeedCalc.html
Joe
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John mine are TTS not pitted, fitted in 04 , but seen little use, i drag raced the bike between salt meets for a couple of years but it was only in 5th for a very short time , and i can count the number of runs at the salt without taking my boots off
Another Aussie busa thats had a few more runs has removed his after the first season, not sure what brand, don't think it matters all that much , if you want overdrive gears just get top gear and learn to live with a bit of a step from 5th
My fave gearing calculator
http://www.gearingcommander.com/
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lovely bit of turning on the hub Jon,Could you get a couple of bits of drain pipe and make a small frame for them to use as rollers to turn it like a set of steel pyramid rolls without the top roll, Alternativley do what I do and bribe buddys with beer and make a day of it!!
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Thanks Guys.
Maj; why do they run overdrive boxes rather than just smaller sprocket on the rear?
Machining the cush drive to take a smaller sprocket has got to be easier & cheaper than splitting the box.
Oz; Now there's a good option :cheers:
Family day yesterday, very nice.
Drilled rear hub holes and made disk carrier today.
The rear hub was too tall to fit in my mill with the chuck on the rotary table so took it off and then pulled the top travel stopper off the column of the mill to get the last little bit.
From sprocket carrier end;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/9d1507a9.jpg)
Bit bulky this end but has enough material to remachine to take a sprocket in line with Bussa output shaft.
Brake disk end;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/208b1641.jpg)
The two Niko marks next to the bolt circle are for jacking bolts as it's a size for size fit.
The 5 holes were originally to fit an extension bar through so that I can check the wheelnuts (lug nuts I think you guys call them) but the shape of the rim centre won't let me get a socket in there so they will have to be big enough to get a 1" socket through.
Side view;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/8dfa44de.jpg)
Made myself some work today by basic mistake, I always nag at Dave when he's milling "lock all the slides that you aren't turning", so....
Talking to a guy while setting up the brake adaptor mounting bolts trying to divide PCD by 2 then count turns and remaining millimeters while saying yep and nah in the right gaps in conversation.
Didn't lock the longitudinal travel and it crept a fraction while I was doing the boltholes.
It fitted together but one bolt was snug, it was an 8mm bolt in 8mm hole so only the thread undersize for clearance.
Could have drilled them 8.5mm for clearance but it's a slippery slope when I start doing that so welded up the holes and started again.
It feels heavier than I would have liked but it's strong and simple so I'm happy, it can diet later when I have nothing better to do.
Cheers
jon
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Nice! distractions are always a pain and sometimes its good to work alone but the amount of hours that goes into a build can sometimes make a build a bit lonely from time to time.
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yeah but when you have a SENIOR (what's left) :cry: with ADD you need the second mind around just to keep one ROUNDED up :?
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Jon, parts with really tight clearances can corrode together and are very hard to take apart. This was a big problem with some things I made when I started the build. Lately I have been building with some extra clearance and smearing everything with a light film of marine grade anti seize. An 8.5 mm hole for an 8 mm thread is not unreasonable.
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you'll be finished that thing before I get our diff reassembled.......
I always nag at Dave when he's milling "lock all the slides that you aren't turning", so....
Talking to a guy while setting up the brake adaptor mounting bolts trying to divide PCD by 2 then count turns and remaining millimeters while saying yep and nah in the right gaps in conversation.
"Jon, Jon, hey Jon....oh I was gonna say mind that thing with your head, that must have hurt any way....like I was saying.....do you remember the time when...."
At that point you look at your friend and wonder where they've hidden the beer or food they should have brought with them and hand them a broom, "walk around behind that for a bit and try to keep your gob shut, I'm trying to concentrate"
Yeah. OK I'm going.
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When you get to the salt that little extra weight on the rear may be helpful!
I get more things done in one pass when I turn off the radio or TV in my garage!
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The annoying bit is I got the PCD & the turns on the dividing head right and just did a really basic stuffup, anyway it happens and it was salvageable
Wobbly; I expect it to be a bear to get apart but hopefully at some stage it will be running at 5,000rpm+ so want it located fairly well, hence the jacking bolts. While I'm building I'm putting together worklists, part of the get home list is to remove the brake disk carrier so that it doesn't have much time to get too attached.
Goggles; Don't think so, I expect your finished welding already?
You've played that game before by the sound of it.
Old Scrambler; I'm in the not too heavy camp when it comes to the heavy or light debate, especially unsprung bits that rotate.
Cheers
Jon
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Hi
Fiddly day today;
Drilled and tapped holes for jacking bolts and disk mount holes in the brake carrier.
Made the bearing and axle spacers for the back wheel.
Shortened the back axle, need some stainless threaded rod to finish the adjusters.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/3224a984.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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Hi
Slack attack today; BBQ breakfast on the beach set the pace. :-) :-)
Dummied up the chute tubes and chute tether mount stays;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/95aa1d7f.jpg)
Made the chute tether anchor;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/cdc217a3.jpg)
Started making the battery;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/0d68118e.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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Good to see, you're a man possessed.
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40 weeks till Speedweek 2013. :-o
Does anyone have a rough formula/ rule of thumb for fuel requirements based around blown hp running on methanol?
I worked out 10litres should do me for a blown Busa fueling each run but would like a sence check.
Thanks
jon
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2 and a half gallons should be plenty ; at least for the short course.
others should be chiming in.
I think my 120" gets about 12 miles to a gallon. and that's low balling.
on gasoline.
franey
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Jon, no good info on methanol, but running the busa blown gas we used 1 gallon per run... You may be cutting it close. Max carries 7 gallons of methanol for his 180 ci.
You might want to have 15 liters... just in case... its better to have a little too much than.... well you know
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Thanks guys;
Stainless; do you know how much Max uses a run?
How much Hp you making with the Busa if you don't mind sharing?
10l will be plenty for gas I think but don't want to have to remake the tank and move everything if I need a couple more, like everyone else space is at a premium.
Thanks
Jon
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Hi Jon,
Try that, no pumping losses included:
Air requirement per mn, normally aspirated
(Cyl in litres + Head in litres) x number of cyl x rpm/2 (4 stroke) = AR
Then Boost ratio:
(atm pressure (14.7) + turbo boost)/turbo boost = BR
Then air requirement per mn, with turbo:
AR x BR= ART in litres
Then weight of air in ART = (ART/1000) x 1.2) = ARTW
Then Methanol bit:
ARTW / 6 (meth to air mix ratio) x .792 (specific meth gravity) = meth needed in litres per mn
Hum, thinks it's right!!!
Patrick
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How many hp are you aiming at ?
French Owl is probably right but math was never a strong point of mine so i keep it simple
12.5cc/hp/min will get you in the ball park, then add a safety margine
Are you counting your amps, methanol pump if electric will use about 15-18 at a reasonable boost level
water pump about 4 :wink:
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who was it who said "the only time you can have too much fuel is when you're on fire" :-D
G
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Thanks guys
I will be aiming for 15l, should do the job and not take up too much room.
thanks
jon
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Maybe a decision point on fuel load; when you come out of impound after first half of your record, its nice to be able to go to the line without the fuel truck pass. One less distraction right before the run, and maybe one less chance for a problem when the bike was perfect on the up run.
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Thanks for your confidence JimL, I hope your right oneday.
I'm not wanting to carry excess weight and I'll be chasing ice etc between runs anyway.
Cheers
jon
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Hi
Orange Aid SFI rollbar padding turned up last week;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/cfd4bae2.jpg)
It's not "soft" bit its way better than any of the other SFI approved stuff I've seen in shops.
Simpson Pro Rage turned up yesterday;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/cfd4bae2.jpg)
Had a quick test sit before going to work this am, it is pretty unobtrusive for getting in and out and when sitting in the bike, pleasantly surprised.
Will try and get a pic of shoulder/neck/helmet area before Dave goes back on roster.
Will take both the Pro Rage and Orange Aid to Lake Gairdner in May if any of the Aus guys are interested in having a look.
Cheers
jon
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methanol- fuel class.
your gas- fuel class.
both = no stop at the gas truck line.
franey
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jon,
maybe it's me; but I don't see the difference in the pics in reply #193.
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My Bad, Simpson Pro Rage;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/96b6e6e2.jpg)
I will be running petrol (Gas) until I need to run fuel to make more hp.
First year will be standard motor to settle bike and learn to ride.
Cheers
Jon
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Been doing non bike stuff most of the weekend, helping stepfather inlaw move a bus he converting into a mobile home.
Redid the rails under my feet to drop my feet down and forward a little more;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/df35c8df.jpg)
Bottom rail closest is new rail, one on the other side is old rail.
Skinned the leg feet area;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/2ebeaf1d.jpg)
The skin in this area is on the outside, skin in the seat area is on the inside.
It switches inside to outside at rail that goes down from the front rollbar tubes.
Tacks were still warm when i put on my SFI shoes and oversize test helmet;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/52887625.jpg)
It's the first time I've known 100% that I'm going to fit, I've sat in there and thought my foot was in the right spot but never been sure. :)
Cheers
jon
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Is that the tire between your legs? Tony
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Is that the tire between your legs? Tony
Umm...yep :)
In a 2.5mm tub.
Anyone used a Go Power DA-512 dyno?
Think I just picked an old ratty one cheapish that I can upgrade next year if my bike is looking for more power rather than rebuilding bits.
Cheers
jon
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That the one in Gumtree ??
750 ft/lb should do it without upgrading
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That the one in Gumtree ??
750 ft/lb should do it without upgrading
Yep; going to catch with the guy Wednesday Arvo.
If it's not stuffed mechanically I will just stash in under my table for a year so I don't get distracted.
Its a bellhousing mount but I will put it in a frame and run a jackshaft from the output shaft.
Cheers
jon
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fitting in is NICE that is what we are doing on the lakester now making sure we still fit as we fiddle with adding the "systems" brakes, strg. throttle trans shifter guages FIRESUIT :-o
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Jon, I have a few pictures of Max's riders compartment to share with you. I also have a question. Where is the steering going to fit through the wheel well, will it still leave room the the legs in the firesuit.
The pictures
Looking forward from the front roll bar
Measurement of cockpit length at center of seat to front foot rest and throttle...
center of seat to handlebars (raised)
-
More pics
floor to handlebars (raised position)
back headrest to front of bar
bottom of seat to roll bar
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More pics
Floor to handlebars lowered
Front of bar to handlebars
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Thanks very much for sharing Max and Stainless, I really appreciate it.
I will print them off and post some comparison measurements over the next few evenings.
The wheelwell will be welded into the frame and will be structural, the steering column will pivot from the top/rear of the wheelwell without going wider.
To change my front tyre the front yoke will be dropped out of the bottom of the bike.
Thanks again for your help.
jon
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That is nice that you are fixing up a bus. It reminds me of my hippie days. I lived in a bus, too.
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Picked up an old water brake dyno today, a Go-Power DA-512.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/8bb34135.jpg)
The guy I bought it off purchased it new in 1979 for apprentice training for a company that he was working for at the time.
Pulled the outlet plugs to see if there was much wear or cavitation inside;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/f9c73413.jpg)
Can still see the casting and machining marks inside :)
It used to live at Weipa, anyone who has been up that way will know that it is covered in fine red dust.
Going to clean it up, drown it in WD40 and stash it somewhere that its hard to get to so I don't get distracted.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/910fc7ec.jpg)
Plan to put it back to close to original and tee in some data logging and have some weird ideas on load control that will have to wait.
Cheers
jon
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:-o :-o now that is a FIND :-o!!!
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Jon, better put some access ports in the wheel cover for cleaning out the salt between runs.
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Jon, I'm curious as to why you have the wheel base so short that the front wheel is parked up against your nuts?
Sid.
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Thanks guys
Sparky; I'm pretty happy with it, I stashed it in a box under the bench today.
Stainless; I'm putting a 200 x 300 (8"x12") hatch in front/top, the front and back go straight down from the longest point and it's pretty wide.
Sid; keeps them warm :)
I have some weird theories.
I had a bit of time to sit around some books and spend a bit of time searching the www a couple years ago.
Im trying to get about 50/50 weight distribution on my wheels, and Im trying to keep the total weight down.
I'm one of the heaviest single components so trying to get my weight as far forward as I can.
I got a bit of time to get back to the bike today.
Got the back yoke and rocker tacked up;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/18abe8fe.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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Weird theories are common place around here so you're in good company, hopefully you dont end up singing saprano! :|
Wheelbase ads straight line stability plus allows better aerodynamics & a little lead in the front could counteract your fat arse.
Your rear swing arm looks to have a bunch of angle in it, thats going to want to unload the rear end & possably create a wheel spin problem. All this could add up to being one squirly bitch.
Sid.
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I was pretty worried about the swingarm angle as well Sid and commented the same a few pages back.
It's not as steep as it looks in that pic, I don't have enough room on that side of the bike to take a square on pic.
I was worried that it would have too much antisquat and jack the suspension up while driving then unload too much if it started to spin.
I emailed a few of the frontrunners in streamliner bikes and got the same feedback from them; the coefficient of friction on salt is too low to jack the suspension much, especially as the chainline is a lot closer to parallel with the swingarm than on a road geared bike.
Yeh it's short, wheelbase and overall length, wheelbase is similar to Sam Wheelers bike but less hanging outside the wheelbase.
Again from my weird ideas;
I don't want any straight sections in the body, it's plan view is a NACA low drag wing just wide enough to fit the motor in.
I dont know if im heading in the right direction or not , time will tell I guess.
jon
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Sounds like you're up to speed with it mate. High drive angle will make a car loose on the salt, sounds like it's not such an issue for a bike but like you said, the angle is deceiving.
I dont have much time to follow builds in depth, I'm just busy working & building the liner. I don't even have a TV, no time to watch it.
I eyeball your build & a couple of others once in a while, just the stuff that interest me.
Sid.
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I dont have much time to follow builds in depth, I'm just busy working & building the liner. I don't even have a TV, no time to watch it.
I eyeball your build & a couple of others once in a while, just the stuff that interest me.
Sid.
Words of a special construction freak, living in my idea of paradise.
Doors? fenders? TV?
meh!
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I dont have much time to follow builds in depth, I'm just busy working & building the liner. I don't even have a TV, no time to watch it.
I eyeball your build & a couple of others once in a while, just the stuff that interest me.
Sid.
Words of a special construction freak, living in my idea of paradise.
Doors? fenders? TV?
meh!
Amen, same thing here on the ranch. Minimal Am radio, no TV but a good internet connection.
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I dont have much time to follow builds in depth, I'm just busy working & building the liner. I don't even have a TV, no time to watch it.
I eyeball your build & a couple of others once in a while, just the stuff that interest me.
Sid.
Words of a special construction freak, living in my idea of paradise.
Doors? fenders? TV?
meh!
That would be nice,,,,,, any update pics Sid.
People ask me "did you see this or that on TV?", standard response now is "sorry i didn't catch it, i have a real life"
Whats with the reality TV thing, none of that stuuff is remotely like reality.
Im definitely not "up to speed on it" Sid, if it doesnt work out I'm in for some major rework.
I'm just trusting a couple of guys that have built bikes gone pretty quick that recon it should be OK.
Cheers
jon
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Not much to take pic's of at the mo Jon, I have more out of the chassis than in it right now. I did the big direction change with all the driveline stuff so I'm building adaptors for the rear t-case & overdrive unit. The front t-case is down at B&J getting the front overdrive unit. I spent two long days carving on a piece of 8 inch round bar to come up with the trans adaptor. I'm not a machinest by far, just a mountain man with some machinery.
When it comes to your liner, you'll get heaps of advise on how it should be done. Logic is your best tool to weed out the stuff you dont need & never forget mate, "keep it simple".
Sid.
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Hi
Got the chute tether frame in 1/2 made today;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/4a6f073a.jpg)
There is cross and vetical tubes going where the back of the chute tubes is as both the top and bottom tubes bend in there;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/1331a2cb.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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In the off season this thing can double as as a mailbox to handle the "poster tubes" :-o
Jon keep on-- keep on the internet is up to being as addictive as TV I just noticed in the last 13 years I have logged over 37 days on this site---wow
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In the off season this thing can double as as a mailbox to handle the "poster tubes" :-o
Jon keep on-- keep on the internet is up to being as addictive as TV I just noticed in the last 13 years I have logged over 37 days on this site---wow
Slacker, in a couple years I have 22 days! Wait?................................ DOH!
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Jon, I'm having lunch & checking out your crap. Some things you need to know about chutes. The further back from the rear wheel the attachment point is, the more leverage the chute has to pull your vehicle sideways in a cross breeze when it hits. Secondly, the attachment point hight idealy needs to be on CG to avoid lifting the nose or the tail. A touch low is a truckload better than too high.
The breeze is never straight on, there is always a slip angle.
Your mail box looks pretty big, how much chute do you plan on packing?
Sid.
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Thanks guys.
I sent the top pic to my kids just after I took it, my daughter said it looked looked like a mailbox too..
I'm fortunate that I know nothing about chutes beyond 1 tandem skydive for my 40th so I contacted Bob Stroud.
He put together a chute package based on my guesstimated weight and speed.
I only have a low speed chute at the moment, hopefully oneday I will go quick enough to need a high speed chute.
It's a ribbon style chute in a D-bag with long tether lines, the tether lines take up more room in the chute tube than the D-bag.
They are not a tight fit in the tube, volume or cross section wise.
The tubes have a 20mm (3/4") taper over their length to let the D-bag slide out easier.
I will take some pictures and measurements of the chute today.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, you may wish to take a look at this
http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=22
I was wondering how you came up with the height for your tether mount without having most of the bike together. It could be more "interesting" than you're looking for if it's wrong. :-o Wayno
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Thanks Sid & Wayno
Doesn't everyone use the cam tunnel height or wouldn't that work in a OHC semi reclined bike¿ :-o
I've taken the weights and COG locations of most of the heavy items; me, motor, fuel tank, cooling system, wheels, fire system, landing gear and using their weights x&y moment arms worked out where I think COG height will end up.
Like the rest of my bike it's my best guess to start with.
Chute dimensions;
Canopy diameter 1.75m (5' 2")
Pilot to D-bag 3m (10')
Main line to bridle 13m (42' 6")
Bridle lines 2.5m (8' 2")
Makes the canopy 15.5m (50') from the tether, the tether is 0.6m (2') behind the rear axle.
Canopy;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/3c70ad94.jpg)
Chute;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/94f01131.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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Doesn't everyone use the cam tunnel height or wouldn't that work in a OHC semi reclined bike¿ :-o
gives as good as he gets :wink: :cheers:
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Somewhere on this site there's either a picture or a link to a picture of the Ack Attack streamliner hanging from a crane by its chute attachment point. The rider is installed so that it's pretty easy to see whether the attachment point is in the right location by the way it hangs.
Pete
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Food time again in the high country. :roll:
The cam tunnel thing is aimed at a pushrod auto type engine, CG is what you're looking for.
If you make the ends of your four links bolt up to the frame, you'll be able to adjust the tow hight down the road if you need to.
In my opinion, all the chute companies tend to hook us up with too much canopy, their job is to get you stopped.
Test your chute off the back of the ute so you know what you have before you toss it out the back of your bike. If they behave well in the turbulance behind a road vehicle, thats a good indication.
Ribbon chutes tend to be less problem than long panel cross form.
Sid.
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There is probably a better picture out there, but this should give you an idea. Tony
http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=177621
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Thanks guys
Sid; thought a kiwi would pick Ausi sarcasm
Ive seen the Ack Attack pic, you won't be seeing me copying that anytime soon.
Got the rear suspension rocker mount done today between shortening the grass and other stuff;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/568f1ed0.jpg)
Still got a rear gusset and bolt boss to weld on.
Cheers
jon
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I lived in Sydney for 10 years before I came over here. That whole hanging thing is a little extreme, not to mension risky.
Sid.
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I Dunno, Sid, your Hiway `chute test stories seemed about as risky..... :-D :-D
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Been thinking about the ute test for the chute.
Bit of open road between here and Lake Gairdner. :evil:
I currently have pilot chutes in seperate tubes, to further simplify my bike I would like to launch the pilot chute from the main tube with the spring attached to the pilot chute.
Similar to the pilot launch drag chutes, is anyone using them for LSR?
I'm guessing the pilot chute would get knocked about a bit by draging on the salt while slowing down with the weight of the spring in it.
Any advice/experience would be great thanks.
I want to keep the D-bag/pilot chute system, I don't want to launch the main chute by spring or air.
Cheers
Jon
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I Dunno, Sid, your Hiway `chute test stories seemed about as risky..... ---- :-o thats why the have access roads!---been there do that :-D
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Most people using tube chute systems pack the spring type pilot in with the rest of the laundry. I've seen a few cars with seperate pilot system but don't see the point in complicating things any more than you have to.
I've built a couple of successful high speed systems this way in the past. The system on Al Teagues liner was idiot proof & faultless for 12 years & went beyond 400mph.
The pilots do get knocked around some but they last pretty good & they're not a lot of money to replace plus you need spares any way.
The chute testing that "cousin Paul" speeks of, was me testing my chutes with my blown Riviera at twice the speed limit. I packed them up in a cardboard box, sat them on my lap & when I got up to speed, tossed them out the window. It was interesting, got the results I needed & gave the local farmers something to talk about. My nabor came along for the ride on the second day, he still talks about it. I did repeated hits, increasing the speed each time. I wanted to know that they would fly straight, not spin or hunt.
When you deploy a low speed in front of a high speed, the high speed will collaps & hit the deck anyway plus you will tend to get burn marks on the low speed canopy from sliding down the high speed tow line.
Tossing out a high speed is a gentiler way to settle into the laundry without the big hit & then if you need it, use the low speed. I would expect this would be more critical on a bike liner.
Sid.
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Not risky at all Sparky, a long wide county road with no driveways that looks like it's built for testing something!
We too Steve's Cobra Torino over there too.
Sid.
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My pilot chute is spring loaded inside the main chute tube. I "test drove" it in the shop the other day and it shot out straight and true about 8 feet. That was how long the cord was to the main bag. Wayno
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Thanks guys, I appreciate your advice.
Simpler is what I was after, if I dint have a part it can't break. :-)
I will carry spares, if I get a meet out of a pilot chute I will be happy.
I have plenty of length in my main tubes, the springs taper so I'm guessing when they're packed they're pretty thin?
Thanks
jon
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I Dunno, Sid, your Hiway `chute test stories seemed about as risky..... ---- :-o thats why the have access roads!---been there do that :-D
you left your glasses in the shed yeah?
Not risky at all Sparky, a long wide county road with no driveways that looks like it's built for testing something!
We too Steve's Cobra Torino over there too.
Sid.
Wish I had one of them.....
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Nice stuff Wayno, I like a little art work in race cars too. :cheers:
Sid.
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Nice stuff Wayno, I like a little art work in race cars too. :cheers:
Sid.
The chute door is cool, I thought it had old Customline V8 badge on it but its slotted in, very nice.
Envy you guys with 4 wheels that can have just a cable pull for chute release, I can see why we need to have a tilt switch chute release but it makes it more complex.
Talked to Bob Stroud this am and have a couple of main tube spring launch pilot chutes coming.
That will make the chute area a lot simpler and cleaner, still need to make an interlock trigger so the tail opens if I pull either chute, think I have a pretty simple system sussed.
Going to hook the tilt switch to the slow speed/bigger chute for maximum stopping, does that make sense?
I see the Bub rules for the chute tilt switch is different to SCTA/DLRA rules; it's at 40 degrees rather than 45 my tilt switch is adjustable but just going to set it at 40, if I get past that the bike will assuming it's natural state anyway I think.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, the 'chute door on my car is the center of a 1936 Ford hubcap. Wayno
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If the low speed is your only chute, then thats a given but you don't want to be outside your low speed range when that happens.
& I say "when" because you're a coupla wheels shy of being a race car.
What are the other bikeliner guys doing?
Sid.
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Not sure what the others are doing Sid.
I thought I read somewhere that Bub7 has both chutes in the one tube, one behind the other.
I'll ask the proven runners what they are doing.
Having it switch from one to another at different speeds is too complex I recon.
I will only be running one until I ever get over 250 so no decision to make.
If it gets out of shape enough to go past 40 degrees I recon I want the most out that I can.
Cheers
jon
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I think that chute they hooked you up with might be a bit of a surprise at 250, considering your lack of weight. Too much chute could screw up an other wise good pass but if it's on it's side, I think you're right about the whole bigger is better thing.
With a cross form chute, you can delay the blossom & reduce the hit by taping the shroud lines together about a foot away from the canopy. This allows it to go all the way out & hit before it blossoms. I use electrical tape & go around twice. It might be a little different with a ribbon chute.
Again, do some testing out the back of the ute & see what you like. You don't need to use the pilot for this , just toss the chute out & let the tow line feed out of a cardbord box or a piece of pvc pipe. Once you like what you see & it repeats, then hang your mail box on the back corner of the ute & test your whole system.
Sid.
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Jon, just posted over on Max's thread, but here it is again.
Both chutes fire if the tip over is activated. Max's tip switch has a separate mercury switch circuit for each chute wired to fire the pilot pneumatically when tipped. They do not require master power to be on, they are wired straight to the battery through a fuse of course.
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Thanks guys.
Sid; My kids have been hassling me about trying the chute behind my ute since I first got it.
I'm driving to Lake Gairdner rather than riding so might give it a shot, there's some pretty vacant roads around Burke and Cobar.
Stainless; thanks to you and Max.
Sam Wheeler and Mike Akatiff were kind enough to get back to me and they throw both chutes as well.
Both chutes it is, if I get to needing 2.
Cheers
Jon
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Kids know best how to have fun, I still have a big chunk of kid in me.
I've been to Burke, "vacant roads" is an understatement mate.
Sid.
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I still have a big chunk of kid in me.
Sid.
I think that would cover most of the LSR community?
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Yep!! Cool huh?
So are you the first crazy fuc.... I mean are you the first bikeliner in Oz?
Sid.
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Yep!! Cool huh?
So are you the first crazy fuc.... I mean are you the first bikeliner in Oz?
Sid.
I hope to never grow up.
There's a few of us crazy fuc.... I mean bikeliners in Aus that I know of, most of them a lot further on than me.
Lucky Keiser has run with his Merlin Vee twin then a 351 clevo (I think), its retired and in the Laidely bike museum and he now has his 2nd bike running.
Ross has his 3 engine Voodoo Rocket build diary (http://www.dlra.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1314) on the DLRA website.
Bones has a build under way that we get the occasional glimpse of in the background of other pics but he isn't giving a lot away.
The grapevine says there's a multi Bussa engined project on down south, I've heard 2&3 engines, Grumm says 3 and he wouldn't take the piss.
I'm the jony come lately.
I've posted a question in Sparky's build about harness's.
I haven't used anything more complex than a 5 point before, any experience or advice on what to do or avoid would be great.
Mounting preferences, latches, 7 or 9 point pros and cons, 2" or 3" shoulder straps with a HANS etc.
Someone (think it was Sparky or Stainless, I have Craft on names sorry) recommended not using the twist type release in a small riders compartment, Bob recommended twist release.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, my belts are done exactly the way Sparky's are. I hope he's right. :lol: Mine are where they are to get the belt loadings in the right places and to fit in where they need to be. Wayno
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Thanks Wayno, which buckle did you go with?
I found this googling on the train; http://www.schroth.com/installation-instructions/en/03_anchorage_locations_and_geometries.htm
Looks like straps 3&4 go under the HANS then 8&9 over the HANS.
they also have a chart for the widths of straps 3,4,8&9 that I think I will use.
Thanks
jon
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Yep!! Cool huh?
So are you the first crazy fuc.... I mean are you the first bikeliner in Oz?
Sid.
I hope to never grow up.
There's a few of us crazy fuc.... I mean bikeliners in Aus that I know of, most of them a lot further on than me.
Lucky Keiser has run with his Merlin Vee twin then a 351 clevo (I think), its retired and in the Laidely bike museum and he now has his 2nd bike running.
Ross has his 3 engine Voodoo Rocket build diary (http://www.dlra.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1314) on the DLRA website.
Bones has a build under way that we get the occasional glimpse of in the background of other pics but he isn't giving a lot away.
The grapevine says there's a multi Bussa engined project on down south, I've heard 2&3 engines, Grumm says 3 and he wouldn't take the Plymouth.
I'm the jony come lately.
Cheers
jon
Yep, there is a three Busa bike liner being built in this state. The guy building it , Ken, doesn't have much time for the internet, he's too busy. But I've seen it and it's real
G
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Jon, I went with the rotary buckle and i like it. Wayno
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Jon, in a small vehicle think about the distance to work things associated with the belts. the duck lever latch is the easiest to reach and move when you are tight and restrained. The rotary can be a pain when your elbows cant move outboard. Our laps have 2 adjusters on each belt, cross pull and up pull, if you have only one or the other you will have issues (Sparky take a note here). The cross pulls are good for initial buckeling in, the up pull for final tightening. When the lakester belts get back from DJ Safety I can post a picture if you would like. Make sure you shoulder belts have the adjusters a couple of inches from your helmet. The cheek belts are the anti-submarine belts, the crotch belt is there to hold the lap and shoulder belts in place. When you are in riding position, draw a line straight down the front of your body, where it intersects the floor is where that belt mounts, not down and next to the boys.
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Good tips Stainless, thanks for chiming in. :cheers:
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We incorporated a 1" x 3" wood dowel on the end of the strap that unlatches the "duck lever". It sure is easy to find among the other strap ends and bunched up fire suit.
-
Thanks guys
Hope to get seat made and harness measured and ordered this weekend.
Thanks
jon
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Heres a little more opinion for ya Jon.
The way that your belts adjust is logic, you have to be able to sinch the driver down in the vehicle.
I personally don't like camlock type. I was trapped by a stuck one after a crash back in my Sydney days & they had to cut the belts to get me out. I woulda been effed if it had been burning. I favour the simple latch & lever.
Sid.
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Thanks Sid
Between you and Stainless looks like I will get the latch and link, I was originally going to go with the twist release as I thought it looked easier to work with.
Thanks
jon
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I agree on the lever, the twist to release is hard to manage with gloves and arm restraints.
-
In most of the lay down vehicles, you can't actually see the release mechanisim when you're strapped in so put something on the tear tab that you can feel with your gloves on.
Sid.
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Not much to look at this weekend, redirected to family stuff Saturday arvo & Mothers Day today.
Got seat back mocked up and 2 sets of shoulder belt mount tubes tacked in.
Measured up and emailed off order for 9 point harness, Strouds are holding my pilot chutes to send all in the one package.
Went with Strouds as they will inspect and recertify their harnesses, they will be kept in a Esky with the my helmet, Head and Neck Restraint, fire suit, chute and some mothballs for 51 weeks of the year.
Cheers
jon
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They probably don't know what an Esky is over here mate, moth balls, maybe!
Sid.
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Hi, been a while since I posted.
Spent a week servicing ute, sorting camping gear etc to go to Lake Gairdner then packing it all away again when it was cancelled.
Chucked some camping gear on my Guzzi and went for a bit of a ride in central Queensland going nowhere in particular, around 1500 miles, the guy I was going to ride to the lake with and his mate came as well, was a good break.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/6a61e6df.jpg)
New pilot chutes, harness and arm restraints turned up in the mail while i was away, minor hickup with the harness but its getting sorted so all good.
Got back onto my build yesterday, started machining up the front axle mount;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/960fb42c.jpg)
The small blocks weld onto the front suspension yoke, the lower control arms rose joint onto the bigger blocks. Pretty steady going on little mill/drill, the big blocks will go on a diet after it's all together and I get a good visual on the load paths.
Will put a couple sheets of paper between the mating faces of the big/little blocks before boring them so that they clamp the axle tight.
Cheers
jon
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You were going to ride that to the lake?
Bahahahahahaha
G
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Grumm, I don't think that's exactly what he said. :roll: Wayno
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He's right Wayno
That is the bike I was going to ride to the lake for the February meet before it was cancelled.
It wouldn't have been the first time I've spent 5+ hours to do 100 mile on an inappropriate bike through bulldust and sand, hopefully not the last either.
Cheers
jon
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Hey Wayno
Moto Guzzi people are special
G
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I stand corrected. :lol: Wayno
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(http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/7433/54242910151177293118312.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/54242910151177293118312.jpg/)
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Plant must be running ok if you surfing the net.
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Arent you at work too?? :-D
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Got the seat belts fitted up today;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/a1226f04.jpg)
Dave is more photogenic than me, especially when he has a helmet on.
Shoulder straps;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/12699c07.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/05810721.jpg)
Top straps are level with top of shoulder without neck restraint, they will be moved in to 195mm (7.7") centres.
Lower straps are 100mm (4") down from the top ones.
These dimensions are recommended by Bob Stroud and are the same as in the Scroth online manual.
The firewall goes directly against this barwork and will have dimples to allow the belts to pass around the bar.
Lap and Anti-Submarine belts;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/13b5ed1f.jpg)
Lap belts going down to horizontal rail which is fractionally narrower than my hips.
Anti-Submarine straps go back to the vertical bar.
These will have dimples in the metalwork so that there is more than fiberglass to protect them when it assumes it's natural position.
The straight ahead strap will get it's final position when the front suspension and steering is finished.
All straps will have positive stops so they can't slide sideways.
Cheers
Jon
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Jon, in the side view of the shoulder strap, do you have enough "wrap"? You say the strap is level with the shoulder. Wayno
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Jon how are you going to protect the belt that is exposed on the out side of the hoop--maybe run inside of the hoop to a designated strap attachment bar?
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Thanks guys;
Wayno; I queried Bob's install instructions several times thinking I had misread them, then again thinking they would be different because of the seatback angle.
The message from him was consistent; " Top belt horizontal from top of shoulder, bottom belt about 4" down from there"
I searched for a manufacturers install manual for a second opinion and found the SCROTH install manual which describes the same and has some very good tables on how wide to have the HANS belts apart and a lot of examples of what not to do, interesting reading...
I have stretched their guidelines a bit, the top belt is down slightly, about 25mm (1") and the gap between the bars is 100mm (4") where Bob said 3-4"" and SCROTH manual says 60mm (2 1/2").
Both of these are from SFI suppliers, the bottom belt "looks right" to me, the top belt is "as per manufacturers instructions.
I have emailed the same pics to Bob Stroud, if you see me moving them you know I have an email from him saying; "You Goose, not like that!!!!"
Pic from the SCROTH manual;
(http://www.schroth.com/installation-instructions/en/images/image_042.gif)
Sparky; I'm putting welded steel cover around them made out of the same material as my rollbar headplate, it will be welded directly to the frame and to the welded in tub liner.
Thanks
jon
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Jon,
I am with Sparky regarding the side belts around the main rails, a bespoke (now that is a word I never thought I would ever use!!!) tube or solid bar bracket inside the main rails looks to be a much better thought, keeps the body off of the straps and doesn't require some sort of bubble in the body for clearance. Remember "laminar flow"!
I love your "X" members in the main roll hoop, well done!!!
Rex
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.
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I see you have the Orange Aid padding mocked up!
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Thanks guys
Rex; I'll mock up what im planning on doing next weekend and let everyone have a look, basically a 2mm FMS box over the belt wrap area.
I think I have enough room, shan't be none of that bubble stuff happening, the email I CCed you on bounced, do you have a working email address for Bruce?
Moxnix; Nice, I haven't ridden a 1000cc Guzzi, a bit tourquier than the 850s I guess.
Tman; yep, definitely not as hard as the other stuff I've seen, wouldn't call it soft though.
Cheers
jon
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It was a V1000 Convert, w/ 2 speed automatic, tarted up with odd bits from other projects into a sheep in wolf's clothing.
Very much enjoying your build on here. Cheers,
-
Random question for the day;
Can a motorcycle streamliner be 2 wheel drive?
A couple of us were talking rubish and it came up, I dont have the room/time/money/skill to do it but seemed like an interesting question.
Cheers
jon
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DLRA rule book says "power shall be transmitted through the rear wheel only,steering shall be done with the front wheel only"
I been reading it to see what I can get away with on my bike :-D
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Random question for the day;
Can a motorcycle streamliner be 2 wheel drive?
A couple of us were talking rub(b)ish and it came up, I don(')t have the room/time/money/skill to do it but seemed like an interesting question.
Cheers
jon
7.5.4 Streamliner
"......Power must be transmitted through the rear wheel only. Steering must be done with the front wheel only."
Just how much fun are you interested in having?
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Just how much fun are you interested in having?
All of it, but I'm willing to share.
I thought streamliners (2&4 wheel) were meant to promote experimentation :'(
I'm guessing the 4 wheel guys are alowed to use all wheels to drive, never read the front of the book.
Cheers
jon
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JON, There have been lots of folks that showed up with and were shocked to find out they were illegal by "definition", some even found out in impound-- or later
-the definitions ---define :-D
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I'm with you Jon, I would have expected a bike liner to be able to run 2wd but front end geometry required for a driven wheel might make it undrivable. My liner is a 4wd animal.
Sid.
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Jon, a lot of the rules were written based on crashes and litigation.... 2 wheel guys write most of the 2 wheel rules, although streamliners fall under the car safety rules so there is a mix. Rokon (?) made 2WD bikes way back when, good rough trail bike that went a little faster than walking speed, fell over a lot
I know some guys that built a rear wheel steering streamliner back in the 70's.. crashed it 2 years in a row with 2 different rear wheel configurations... the second time it crashed the video shows it barrel rolled 6 times in the air... the front wheel steering rule showed up in the book a year later :|
cool car though.... if I dare say... :cheers:
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SPARKY; Definitely.... If I'm ever lucky enough to park in the impound I would like it to be boring.
Sid; Animal is pretty appropriate, got any more pics to share?
Stainless; I can see the rear steer ending in tears, good for boats and planes, not so good for land vehicles above walking pace. The older rear steer Frontend Loaders keep you on the ball even at 20kph.
Is it an FIM thing that filters down and is unmovable or would it be something that could be discussed if someone if had too much spare time.
Cheers
jon
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Sorry Jon, no more picks of the liner but it's definately evolving into the weapon I envisiged.
Don't forget about the rear steer Thrust SSC.
I ran accross a yellow roadster at the salt a few years back that had front drive & rear steer. Now that was an animal!
Sid.
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I ran accross a yellow roadster at the salt a few years back that had front drive & rear steer. Now that was an animal!
That wasn't Stan at the 4 was it? :cheers:
Geo
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The 4? That's a long way out, even if you're stopping. Here I am seeking directions at the 2.
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Did you start your return run a bit early Stan? :cheers:
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Near as I can tell, I started it 4 or 5 times from that vicinity. Ended up giving it up, drove to the return road with a bunch of "helpers" chasing me.
(My one and only experience with a posi.)
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I ran accross a yellow roadster at the salt a few years back that had front drive & rear steer. Now that was an animal!
Sid.
Maybe the guy drove a forklift as his day job?
I guess that if he turned the seat around, and ran backwards it would be OK, and the Aero would probably be better too
Now getting back to Jon's bike streamliner build
G
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I ran accross a yellow roadster at the salt a few years back that had front drive & rear steer. Now that was an animal!
Sid.
Maybe the guy drove a forklift as his day job?
I guess that if he turned the seat around, and ran backwards it would be OK, and the Aero would probably be better too
Now getting back to Jon's bike streamliner build
G
Been done, the reverse body is against the rules.
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Well Jon, I was wandering around Youtube during lunch today & found another bike bike configuration like yours. It is the human powered category. Is that where the inspiration came from or do you just have a short shed?
Sid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClASxQ25Za0&feature=related
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Sid; You should be building not surfing the net.
The human powered vehicles were some of the designs I looked at while coming up with my shell shape.
Along with solar racers, NACA research papers, high efficiency aeroplanes, sailing boat hulls etc.
I have a weird collection of books, including Goggles favorite author.
Now get back to your welder. :roll:
Jon
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Theres two things I need to rest a few times a day, my feet & my brain. The computater is the perfect place for both. I put in another 15hr day today & it's almost midnight, one slave driver is more than enough around here, you.......
I'm goin ta bed, over here we're still a day late & about two dollars short now.
Sid.
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The human powered vehicles were some of the designs I looked at while coming up with my shell shape.
Along with solar racers, NACA research papers, high efficiency aeroplanes, sailing boat hulls etc.
I have a weird collection of books, including Goggles favorite author.
what? Morgan Hastings? ? ? ? that's not an easy book to find......certain taste too... :roll:
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That video was so annoying with the editing and music, I could only watch a little over a minute of it before it had to go. Would have liked to see what it was about, but I couldn't stand waiting to see. Oh well, it's helll getting old.
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Stan - and others, pardon this quick hijack:
I agree about the music that's behind so many videos and even power point shows -- it's annoying and doesn't contribute to my ability to get value out of the visual stuff. Maybe the person that puts the stuff together really likes the sound track -- but maybe I don't, and I'll either try to turn off the audio anyway or just not follow through and watch it at all. I don't want to hear your choice of sounds unless they contribute directly -- such as the roar of an engine on the dyno, or the audio from the people crashing into the fence and screaming in agony, but NOT the sound track from your headbanger band or the lullaby your great-aunt used to sing (unless said video relates to either of those things).
Okay - hijack has ended. If you wanna join me in bitching -- let's start another thread and take the chance that Dan W. won't object to further diluting the scope of the Forum.
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Yep, mute or exit or none of the above, your choice.
Sid.
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I sent my harness pics to Bob Stroud to double check my geometry, I thought the shoulder belts should come down lower.
His reply is that they're correct.
The 9 points are a pain in the a$s to get both sEts of shoulder belts tight at the same time, when I get them so I'm happy I'm going to trim the excess belt with a hotknife leaving 6" loose after they are fully wrapped back in.
I've cleared this with Bob and it won't effect recertification, this will let me put the belts in exactly the same at the start of each meet with minor fiddling to get them right.
I went pull down and pull up on the lap belt as per Stainless suggestion and with a Latch & Link system as per Stainless and Sid.
Very happy, thanks for your help guys.
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Finished machining up front axle clamps and tacked up front yoke today;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/11464e2f.jpg)
Front yoke tubes didn't quite fit in my dropsaw so had to do a bit of creative clamping;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/09905985.jpg)
Started getting the yoke mounts roughed out.
Cheers
Jon
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Not much to show for today, flying out for work @ 3:00.
Bottom suspension mounts made and tacked onto yoke;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/82429d4e.jpg)
Will add gussets after I get it in the bike and am happy with geometry and movement arcs.
Cheers
jon
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Not much to show for today
Ha. Your work rate is quite impressive Jon, as is your vision. I'm enjoying this build. :cheers:
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Thanks rgn; my progress is sporadic as this isn't my highest priority and my design is unproven.
Time will tell wether I have a functional plan and execution.
You building or planning a build?
jon
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...my design is unproven. Time will tell wether I have a functional plan and execution.
All designs are unproven until implemented. Without vision and a goal nothing would ever be achieved. I believe your build will be an exceptional culmination.
I'm educating myself atm. There is a lot to absorb in this land of giants. In the future I will build, next year I will front with a couple of road race machines and get a feel for the salt, and learn what I can from the experienced participants. Cheers,
Ralph.
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I agree Ralph, he is proving to be a bit of fabricator isn't he?
Sid.
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Not much to look at lately.
Weekend before last was work so I could take some weekdays off to get some stuff done.
Last weekend was a rockclimbing course with my daughter to set up anchors so we can go outdoors more rather than gym climbing.
I'm at a point where I have to stop doing fabrication for a little while if I'm going to run in February.
To run in February I need to order my screen in October, to do that I need a mold.
To make a mold I need to have the body finished.
To have the body finished I need to be 100% happy with my shape.
I'm 98.5% happy with my shape, expect to see some input from Woody soon.
It's like my chutes, I'm not afraid to get input from people who know their $hit.
It's still happening.
jon
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Jon, we are all behind you and know you can do it. Keep up the good work. :cheers:
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Jon;
Karabiners are handy for attaching lines to tow a race car. Lots of other stuff too, besides climbing.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I haven't seen your shape Mate but Goggs tells me you're a sexy bitch. Oh w-w-were you talkin about ya bike? Did I say that out loud? :-D
Sid.
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Thanks Glen, the support I have received from people on this site is huge, I hope to meet some of you oneday.
That explains his Facebook "preferences" Sid, I'll send you some pics, I'm not wearing Ugg Boots.
jon
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Jon, just fab the shell where the windshield will be, make the mold and send it out, and then finish the rest of the bod while they make the shield.
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I'm getting "maneuvered" by a Queenslander and a bloody Kiwi, if my friends hear about this there'll be trouble......
Jon I was looking at your plan view and wondered what Woody will come back with . I feel you may be able to afford more width at the front allowing you to start the taper sooner, avoiding the rapid transition to the tail.
I am not making any suggestions, or judgements on what you have and am conscious of a conversation I had with Greg Watters around tail design on fully faired bikes, it was based around the contention that there is a lull ( in incremental advances in the APS)at the moment because a few guys have handling problems and suspect they are due to their tail design.*
Something else we all have to remember is that the best aero shapes aren't necessarily the most stable, in fact the best are very unstable. This is one of the great compromises and like a good marriage it's in the compromises that the smart decisions are made.......hey I should know I'm 3 and a half months in. :roll:
* that statement was pulled straight out of my arse and is not the opinion of any riders
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Wobbly; hopefully i wont have to, fingers crossed.
Goggles: I'm glad you were checking out my plan and not my profile :0
The maximum width that far back was planned and not accidental, I think (hope) the tail closing angle is ok.
It's short on purpose, the lead on my welder is only 4m (13 foot) long.
NLF is not a myth.
jon
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Crow muncher's & bloody Kiwi's, tuff combo. :evil: :evil:
Sid.
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Jon;
Karabiners are handy for attaching lines to tow a race car. Lots of other stuff too, besides climbing.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Always have a 'biner or two with me. Handy stuff! People look at you funny if you carry your crampons and ice axes tho....................... :wink:
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How big will the screen have to be ? are you looking at a full aircraft style or a small window to see the track , If a small window is all thats needed you could probably do that yourself when the missus is out for the day
Gogs, i'm part way through making the new tail, let you know after WOS if it makes a difference
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Jon;
Karabiners are handy for attaching lines to tow a race car. Lots of other stuff too, besides climbing.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Always have a 'biner or two with me. Handy stuff! People look at you funny if you carry your crampons and ice axes tho....................... :wink:
Yeah, crampons and ice axes are pretty much single-purpose devices. But, like a parachute, when you need one you need one bad.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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No ice axes or crampons for me, lately though I left my Madock (Adze) at my daughters place while helping her and her fiancé remove some trees, a couple weeks later I needed it at home so my daughter met me at her station 1/2 way home on the train and gave it to me.
You get some weird looks on a train when carrying a Madock....
Maj; it will be a full canopy to meet the 120degree vision rules, I think I have found someone that will do something in PETG.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, the PETG is a good choice. It is easier to work with and has less tendency to form internal bubbles upon heating than the polycarbonate I used.
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Everything you read says "COG must be in front of COP" else you have a problem.
How does this vehicle have self correcting tendencies in a crosswind?
http://www.deltabike.us/forge-A/cross-wind.htm (http://www.deltabike.us/forge-A/cross-wind.htm)
To quote the above page;
"...The vehicle does NOT start to incline away from the crosswind direction, but leans automatically into the wind, the more forward the LCP (longitudinal center of pressure) the more leaning against the wind. The reason is, that the trail of the steering produces a steering moment into the wind by counterdeflection that causes a roll input at least 3 times greater than the moment ..." Arnold Wagner
The way I read this is;
The sidewind pushes on the body, this sideways force acts on the headstock, because of the trail offset this would steer the front wheel toward the wind.
Wouldn't precession cause the bike to lean downwind and to turn downwind?
What am I missing?
Thanks
jon
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The sidewind pushes on the body, this sideways force acts on the headstock, because of the trail offset this would steer the front wheel toward the wind.
Blonde moment.....
Steering pivot is in front of wheel contact point (obviously) the sideways pressure on the headstock will turn the wheel downwind; precession will then roll the bike into the wind.
So....for the same body sideways movement;
Less trail would create more wheel angular change and cause more of a lean in????
Does that make sense?
jon
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I am thinking the low-speed wind and steady side-pressure acts much like counter-steering at the handlebars. All is influenced by the amount of trail and the tire profile....including sidewall flex. Some level of correction can also be achieved by shifting rider weight on the pegs....or in your case.....on your arse :lol: :lol: :lol:
Stories from '59 tell about the Triumph Cub Streamliner that was leaned-over so far that the carb was starving for fuel.......now we have wind limitations for safety.
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Isn't the reaction described in the delta bike design competition link about body shape causing a desired reaction to cross wind more than the innate characteristics of a motorcycle or streamliner.
You could build this kind of compromise into your design I guess, but would you want to?
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Jon, some thoughts on tails are in the Team Go Dog, Go build diary. I did not want to hijack your thread. It might be a good idea to talk to Mike Akatif about this. They took the parachute doors off of their liner during record runs and the pointy tail became a truncated one. Handling was changed as I recall.
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Thanks guys.
I'm not planning on changing anything in my build re the steering, I was trying to understand the interaction that was causing it to roll (quite hard by the look of it) into the wind and then see if I wasn't doing the opposite of it inadvertently, that would exagerate the wind caused roll.
I "think" I'm ok, I need a fingers crossed smiley.
Thanks for that Wobbly, feel free to post whatever you want in my build, I do follow yours closely.
Will get some work done on my bike this weekend ( where's that damn fingers crossed smiley)
jon
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Well... Scratch getting stuck into build work this weekend.
Woody just gave me a heap of homework for his CFD analysis work, I'm impressed by the amount of detail that he is asking for.
Cheers
jon
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Well... Scratch getting stuck into build work this weekend.
Woody just gave me a heap of homework for his CFD analysis work, I'm impressed by the amount of detail that he is asking for.
Cheers
jon
:evil: :evil: in the detail!
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Not much to show for the weekend.
Did Woody's homework, tacked in a couple bars around my feet area, welded up a couple more that I was happy with and started shortening some stainless bolts for my rose joints.
All my rose joints will have a plate either side so that the bolt is in double shear, I want the bolts to have straight shank in the first plate, through the rosejoint and at least part of the second plate.
I'm using plated castle nuts as have some bad experiences with stainless to stainless threads even with neverseize.
One of the early pics back from Woody;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/5edc9ebf.jpg)
Wheel fairings are coming later.
I'm crap at CAD, I can make something in steel quicker than I can draw it on a computer.
I know you can do stress analysis and motion stuff to see if things work but not this little black duck.
My design goes; I need to do this, that looks about right, it's pushing/pulling that way, it moves that way, if it fails it's going to do that, measure, cut, tack, stand back and look and cut various bits of my anatomy depending how it looks.
I am going to do something you can actually see soon, honest....
Cheers
jon
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I'm with you Jon, CNC at my place stands for "cut n cardboard" but I can sure whittle some $hit.
Sid.
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Fair few emails going back and forth beteen Woody and I.
This was in the last one;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/c0618f7b.jpg)
I think it indicates that my overall design shape isn't too bad at a pre CFD run look.
To be honest I have NFI but it looks ok, black is bad but the tail being a little draggy can help with stability from some of the stuff I've read, I read too much.
I'm out in the field at the moment and was talking about this with one of my mates who's the chopper pilot.
He designs aeroplane paintjobs as a sideline, I generally like to paint stuff white but obviously not the go for a salt vehicle.
I like the large checker pattern from my last post so I gave Dan (the chopper pilot) that and a couple other things I wanted and he's going to sketch something up.
I'm not going to see if I can get sponsored by a toothpaste company as I keep getting told at work, they always end up getting rolled up from one end or squeezed in the middle.
Cheers
jon
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The "Ipana Liner" sounds good Jon. Can ya still get that down there? :mrgreen:
Sid.
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I think it indicates that my overall design shape isn't too bad at a pre CFD run look.
To be honest I have NFI but it looks ok, black is bad but the tail being a little draggy can help with stability from some of the stuff I've read, I read too much.
Looks PBG to me, if you've got drag anywhere that's where you want it, remember Sam has a tailfin......
From memory that is one of the cleaner CFD's Woody has put up, slight differential at the tip of the nose but that's about it.
Hey Sid, you can get it anywhere.....oh, BUY IT you mean......nah, only in Turkey it seems.
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Hi Jon, in relation to our nose shape discussion, here is a good link that goes into the topic. Seems for subsonic flight (as you mentioned) the parabola is king.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0151.shtml
If you paint it checked, not yellow and black... too crash test... :lol:
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Thats right Goggs, with the gift of the gab it can be got & still is bein. :-D Those bluddy turkey's!
Sid.
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Thanks guys, hopefully no toothpaste tube impersonations coming this way.
That pic isn't from a high speed CFD analysis yet so I'm expecting it too look worse as we go on.
I want to run a nose nozzle from the stagnation point but will have a bit of trouble getting the air past me.
Have a couple of plans, one should work hopefully.
Trying to get the exhaust out the back will be fun too.
Cheers
Jon
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The nose looks a lot like the nose on Al Teagues streamliner.
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The rules state;
"All electric fuel pumps shall have an inertial switch in the circuit to disable the pump operation."
Does my tilt switch that I have for my chutes cover this if wired in or do i need a seperate inertial switch.
Just been working on my wiring diagram in my spare time.
thanks
jon
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Jon, I would just wire a Ford inertia switch with close access for resting it in case it gets bumped on your push offs (its happen before and Murphy has a big book of laws on the salt). They only cost about $5 at the local pick -n pull and you probably have enough of them in the salvage yards there as well. Tony
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Thanks Tony
I have this as a tilt switch for my chutes;http://hmbe.com.au/assets/products/206/original/2-Axis%20Tilt%20Switch.pdf (http://hmbe.com.au/assets/products/206/original/2-Axis%20Tilt%20Switch.pdf)
I was going to wire it to not only pull my chutes but to cut my fuel pump and ignition also.
I think it complies in spirit with the rules but it isn't an "inertia" switch.
I dont want to have to hack into my loom after its done and sealed up.
Grumm, can you give me a ruling for DLRA please?
thanks
jon
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Hi Jon
Same as the SCTA
The tilt switch is for the parachutes and the inertia switch is for the fuel pump
you will need both
so 7.H.8 for the inertia and 7.H.13 for the parachute
however, I would also look at 7.H.20 the battery cutoff switch, and also at 3.K for the placement of the battery cutoff
Current model Ford Falcons ( the Australian car) have inertia switches in the left kick panel
or you can buy them from Summit Racing
this is usually the point where I start gibbering on about the use of Cole Hersey continuous duty relays to prevent voltage drop and for the ease of setting up multiple battery cutoff switches
The other Really important thing to look at , if you are running SCTA or DLRA is
http://www.scta-bni.org/pdf/2012%20Motorcycle%20Inspection%20Form.pdf
Because, this is what will bring you undone at the lake
G
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Thanks Grumm and Tony
I'll go to the wreckers and grab a couple, guessing most people are using the Ford ones, may as well use the same so can share spares.
I've got the inspection checklist in my toolbox, also got a custom combined one of SCTA/BUB.
Likely never get there but no harm in building to suit.
I've got the Cole Hersey solenoids from when we talked before.
Dan's paintjob;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/95aff1e2.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/55a90770.jpg)
Think this is what I'll run, thanks Dan.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, maybe these guys will sponsor you for air brakes! No chutes needed! :-D
I'm getting some more homework ready for you! :cry:
For all you lurkers out there, we are just prepping the CAD model for the first CFD pass. Once we get that done we refine the setup based on what we see, put in some more digital air, then blow it harder and at some angles to see what the responses are. So stay tuned! :cheers:
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Jon
If you get one from the wreckers, get the plug as well
G
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Goggles & Grumm;
Do the one you guys and most people run look the same as Tony posted?
Do you remember what the plug looked like so I get the same.
I will get a couple so I have a spare but if everyone is using the same I may as well get the same.
Thanks
jon
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The plug looks like the plug that is plugged into the one you get from the wrecker. :-D Wayno
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Wayno :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Jon, The Ford unit uses a 3-pin Pico connector part # 5756PT. Tony
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I guess I asked for that. :)
I'll be sure to wear my double plugas when I go and get them.
http://m.urbandictionary.com/#define?term=Double%20Plugas (http://m.urbandictionary.com/#define?term=Double%20Plugas)
They're not Jandals Sid
Thanks Tony, will help me get some terminals.
3 wires, do they have normally open and normally closed contacts?
Thanks
jon
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The OEM Ford one in front of me has two wires. Use the white/red & blue wires as shown in Tony's pic.
Mike
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The Kiwi Jandals were tripple plugas, one in the front n two on the sides.
Ahh... the memories...rubbing a raw spot on ya toe, spinouts, blowouts....
Sid.
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Goggles & Grumm;
Do the one you guys and most people run look the same as Tony posted?
Do you remember what the plug looked like so I get the same.
I will get a couple so I have a spare but if everyone is using the same I may as well get the same.
Thanks
jon
FWIW, the one we are installing has a white "T" shaped reset button on top. I forgot which car I took it out of, I've seen several slightly different looking switches over the years. They are a normally closed switch, a hit bounces a ball up to trip a lever over center to open the circuit, button on top resets the lever and switch. Think there is a thread on here somewhere with a link to more internal details.
Mounting space was limited for our use in a lakester so we opted for using female disconnect terminals directly on the 2 spade terminals in the bottom of the switch. Two on it now are a bit big, since installation I have found what should be a better fit: 16 -14 ga .110" Dorman #84547 gold plated. If you have the space you can probably get a pre tried switch and plug for what they cost, $5.99.
The switch is wired in line with the control side of the fuel pump relay. It will probably be a couple weeks before we get the whole car harness completed. If our plan doesn't check out OK I'll post an update.
Ed
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Thanks Ed
Some of Woody's homework has been around tyres.
Thought this may have been of interest to some;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/0a399ad5.jpg)
Goodyear D2283 (23.0 x 5.0 -15) mounted on a 4" rim, 75psi and supporting approx 300kg (660lbs).
The weight is as accurate as 1/4 of my XH Ford ute so it's a thumbsuck.
Small squares are 2mm, darker squares are 10mm (0.4").
Cheers
jon
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Jon, a SWAG is always better than a WAG! :cheers:
All that HP in that one little spot - tires are beyond amazing! :-o
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I would like to see that footprint at 200+ mph or even 300mph , they grow lots
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So would I Maj, bit of work before then though.
Been asked a couple questions about my front yoke;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/ade48387.jpg)
The lower control arm points are in so there's about 5mm gap between the rose joint and the wheelnut (lugnut) side of the wheel.
They are set back so that the virtual pivot point (where the two control arm centerlines intersect) give me the rake and trail I want.
Mounting faces of the bottom clamps;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/d3bb81dc.jpg)
The yoke tapers in so that the bit at the axle just fits over the tyre, two bolts up through each side.
Cheers
jon
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i realy like the simplicity of the wheel mount
I am trying these tires myself, shaving a little for a more bike oriented shape (could be a bad thing ) but wondering esp on the fast streamliners just how much the contact patch changes at speed
and if the 4" tire would actually become too small in the contact patch at very high speed, i know Assen shredded one last year at 260mph as he only had 1" clearance
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Would a steel belted radial like a metzeler expand less at speed?
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Thanks Maj, the whole thing is a KISS as i can think of.
By going Moninshock and having the yoke move with the wheel i have introduced bumpsteer but I dint have enough room to run a shock either side, legroom is tight now.
Was that a LSR tyre or Frontrunner Maj?
What pressure did they start off with?
They grow a bit between 50 & 75 psi, I haven't tried higher than that.
What pressure do most people run their tyres at?
I was recommended 75psi cold.
I'm not going to supporting that much weight compared to most but I'm going to run at that to reduce sidewalk flex and heat buildup.
On my ute there is a marked difference in sidewalk flex between 60 & 75 psi.
The must be racing tyres above 200 rule must limit tyre choices for sit on bikes?
cheers
jon
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Front lower control arms mocked in to check the geometry;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/818a9caf.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/04ad7817.jpg)
Straight ahead;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/24df030b.jpg)
Full lock, 7 degrees;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/8b6ea709.jpg)
Couldn't get a pic but at full lock the centre of the contact patch moves away from the turn about 10mm. :)
No I'm not running with the bolts tacked on, yes I'm bracing the mount in the bottom of the yoke and yes I'm going to replace the curtain rod control arms.
Cheers
jon
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Steel belted tires are in fact worse at speed due to the mas of the steel. It's built into a road tire to give it protection from road hazzards. Back in 1990 Goodyear actually stated that their steel belted Wrangler would go 400 if the tread was buffed down. In the real world, the steel came out of them at about 300. Needless to say, their statement was retracted at about the same speed.
Sid.
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d2284 at 80 psi
you making a lift with castors to turn it around ??
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Thanks Maj; It's going to be a pain to maneuver, trailer for the return road etc.
I was planning on using double acting master and slave cylinders or pull cables on either side for steering to make sure I got no bumpsteer.
The rules state fixed, gear or linkage, what is the history behind that?
I can see single cable where on direction relies on a push motion being not so cool.
Is this something worth enquiring or am I wasting my time?
Any linkage system I make will have some bump steer when not straight ahead.
Bump steer on a bike with relatively heavy wheels spinning at a reasonable rpm is something I would prefer not to deal with.
More email tag with Woody tidying up the model for CFD;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/a168577a.jpg)
Thanks
jon
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G'day Jon, fellow Aussie here, been following your build with interest. Regarding your bump steer dilemma I may be able to offer a solution. From the photos it's not completely clear to me how you intend to suspend the top of the yoke or where you intend to mount the springs/shocks. I am familiar with 'virtual' pivots or 'focusing' links. I'm assuming you'll have some sort of a top wishbone and will have the springs either mounted off the sides of the yoke or cantilevered behind the wishbone somehow. Regardless, I figure you intend to run a Steering arm off one side of the yoke attached to a Drag link connected to a Pitman arm. Standard fare for most vehicles. The problem being that the Pitman arm is reacting upon a fixed pivot point mounted on the chassis whilst the Steering arm is reacting on a pivot point that can alter subtly with suspension travel thus giving you the unwanted bump steer. An easy way to eliminate this problem would be to simply eliminate the fixed pivot point of the Pitman arm. Say you were to have a Steering shaft mounted vertically somewhere behind the front wheel, the top half of this shaft is in bearings and is rotated by a Drag link connected to the handlebars. Now, under those bearings you have either a Uni or CV joint and then the shaft below is allowed to simply 'hang' from the joint. At the bottom of the shaft you then have a double sided Pitman arm connecting two Drag links to two Steering arms one either side of the yoke. Steering angle of the yoke is now slaved to the Steering shaft angle and the Pitman arm is non rigidly mounted, 'swinging' backwards and forwards off the Uni or CV joint in accordance with suspension movements. I would incorporate a link at the bottom of the Steering shaft to prevent lateral 'swinging' of the arm although even that wouldn't effect the yokes steering. Even without knowing your current setup I feel something similar to this should be able to be implemented. Sure simpler than hydraulics. Cheers, Dave.
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Thanks Maj; It's going to be a pain to maneuver, trailer for the return road etc.
I was planning on using double acting master and slave cylinders or pull cables on either side for steering
cable steering is a reason that the bub 7 is illegal for scta.
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Thanks guys
Dave; what vehicles are you familiar with that run focus link steering? I can't find reference to many.
The top of the yoke runs to a single spherical bearing in a rocker running to a monoshock, this is to get the lean of the front wheel.
Worked up a sketch last night with a hinge action that will work but more moving parts than I wanted.
Hydraulic is pretty simple, think of a hydraulic clutch but double acting, not that unusual on agricultural and industrial equipment.
Saltwheels; One of yes, that's my question, unlike Dennis I can't afford to run my own event.
Cable can be safe if done properly IMHO, two properly rated pull cables are going to be way stronger than any person can hold onto.
I see Marlo is running Hydraulic similar to what I gad in mind and Dennis is running cable, might sit on it until after the Bonneville events are run and submit some drawings and numbers to tech.
Cheers
jon
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I hope the hydraulic is better than any i use in Agriculture, as i would not want to go faster than the 20mph mine are set up for and one even that is dodgey ;)
Agriculture does have some very good push pull cables , but sounds like there not realy an option .
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Not all things in agriculture are "agricultural". :-)
I was involved in the development of one of the first self steering RTK GPS tractors.
80 tone could keep on line within about 2" either way 24/7.
Have a look at Marlo's Streamliner, almost exactly the same concept.
No pumps, valves etc, two double acting rams, one is working as master, the other as slave.
The same concept has been used to replace long linkages on machinery for ages.
Cheers
jon
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Maj,
You are sure right about present day tractors, I rent a John Deere to cut my small field and if you notice there is no real connection between the steering wheel and the front wheels, the feed back link is the driver vision, the steering wheel position kind of just wanders around!. At 20 mph they are scary!! Now if you do something similar to the system used on Marlo's car you have a much better system if you do the details correctly.
Rex
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Jon
Could yo put up a few pictures of the front suspension, I can't see where the pivot for the wheel is.
I was expecting more like the Buddfab with a swingarm ( I'm only a sidecar rider)
Keep up the good work. I'll get back onto mine soon.
cheer Bones
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Rex; like ive told a few people and they've said back to me; the rules are the rules. Linkages it is.
Bones; the top pivot only exists in my head, it will go steel this weekend.
Think a monoshock rocker, shock behind the wheel and a spherical bearing on the other end of the rocker attached to the top of the yoke.
I don't have enough width to get a shock up each side of a car size wheel.
Like everything the answer is pretty simple when you stop doing what you are doing and stand back.
Thanks DaveL for making me start again.
Will throw up a Post-it note engineering drawing tonight.
Cheers
jon
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More info from Woody as he refines the model to reflect what I've built;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/e0f76f55.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/34de9223.jpg)
"Just fits" is good, isn't it?
Cheers
jon
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Jon, by 'familiar' I was referring to my understanding of the concept of 'virtual' pivots rather than the specific applications of it. That said, yours is probably the 8th or 9th time I've seen it used in an LSR vehicle.
As for eliminating bump steer with strictly a mechanical system, you would have to determine what level of complexity you're willing to except. Some simple setups almost eliminate it, others are fine when the wheel is straight ahead but suffer slightly when turned, only a few totally eliminate it. Naturally they're also the most complicated. I'll concede that a small amount of bump steer is probably acceptable but personally, I'd prefer to cancel it completely. The Aircraft strut style hinge linkage is also a good choice.
Good luck with your project!
Dave
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Jon,
It took my old head a while to figure out how your bike will steer. It looks to me that the whole wheel moves back and forth, and turns because of the geometry of the lower links. Does this not move the tire contact out of line with the centerline, and hence the center of gravity, of the bike? If a gust of wind hits the left side of the body, causing the body to lean to the right, you have to steer to the right to compensate, which moves the body further to the left. I think I'd want to find a big hill and coast it down to try out that concept. I may be wrong, but I wouldn't want you to get to the salt flats to find out.
On my little bike, I got a weave at 125 mph, for no apparent reason, so I know these things can happen.
Tom
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Tom check your neck bearings, if they are too tight it will make the bike weave.
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As you know Jon, I'm a streamliner guy, but it seems to me you are all tangled up in some confusing stuff here & from this end I cant see the whole picture..
The hydraulic slave cyl set up was tried on the Maro Special & found to be undesirable. It is also "illegal" under SCTA rules.
Not to try & re-engineer your wheel, but look at this from a car guy mind.
A single leading arm from behind the wheel to a kingpin in the center of the wheel with no KPI & caster of your choice & a stub axle.
Coil over shock mounted behind the wheel.
Steering arm on the stub axle, drag link back to the handle bar shaft with a length the same as the leading arm.
Simple to build, no bump steer & a lot less stuff you are having to build here.
There would be minimal caster change but is that an issue?
Sid.
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Looking at the rear wheel detail drawing, it looks like you are considering steering it from the rear? lol... Sorry... :-D
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I agree Sid, KISS it is.
You have "Engineering Drawings" in your email.
Hopefully the rear end stays behind me Sid.
When I was young I did speedway for a while, used to have a Roardrunner decal on the front guard and Wile E. Coyote on the rear, contrary to the cartoon Coyote did catch the Roadrunner a few times.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, the streamlined shell has a good shape. How do you see out of it? Is there a canopy?
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Thanks Wobbly.
The canopy runs from the nose back to the front of the roll cage, from the top of the wheeltub up.
There is a paintjob drawing a couple of pages back that shows the rough outline of the canopy.
Cheers
jon
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Re email.
I dont see why you need to steer it from both sides.
Whats locating your fork?
The extreme length difference in rocker arm & drag link will give extreme bump steer.
Looks to me like you need to take off your bike hat for a while & put on your car hat mate! Might help if its got corks on it. :-D
Sid.
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Thanks guys
Tom; didn't mean to snub you sorry, the wheel does move away from the centerline of the bike in the opposite direction it turns, all conventional fork bikes do due to the trail. It's only a slight movement at low input angles and obviously bigger at bigger steer angles.
At slow speed when trying to balance the bike I think it will help, at higher speeds I (hopefully) will be using lower input angles, will also be counter steering.
Sid; the two arms are to make the hinge link plate work (Thanks DaveL for the prompt)
I wasn't hiding anything when I didn't put my "engineering drawings" up, other than most of my stuff is done from very basic line sketches on the back of recycled paper while on the phone at my desk.
For everyones amusement;
Top view;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/17341e3a.jpg)
I haven't drawn the suspension rocker or shock that supports the spherical bearing.
Side view;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/1d6c6c87.jpg)
You can hardly tell the difference between my drawings an Woody's :).
OK, this is how it works;
Handlebars pivot on a vertical pivot (obviously)
The "hinge plate" hinges from the handlebars and has the tie rod bearings attached to the bottom.
This allows the two tie rod ends to move back and forth a little as a pair but they are at the same angle to each other as the handlebars.
The two rods go forward to the yoke and make the yoke turn the same amount as the handlebars.
When the suspension moves it will be in arc, with only one arm this would create bumpsteer unless the geometry is perfect.
It's pretty easy to get 0 bump with the wheel straight ahead but a bit more difficult to get it over the full suspension and steering travel matrix.
By having two arms that input steering by their relative positions rather than one arm that input's steering by it's actual position allows the use of the hinge plate to absorb the wheel travel arc.
The hinge plate shape is going to be a little tricky as I want the rose joints to be in line with the handlebar pivot when the wheel is at normal ride height, it will move back slightly in both bump and rebound suspension travel directions.
Simple, different but simple, two words that people use about me. :)
Cheers
Jon
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No Info from woody in the last 24 hours.
I think he's too busy signing autographs.
http://www.solidworks.com/sw/successes/customer-story.htm?record=Design-Dreams-LLC-1&id=5001 (http://www.solidworks.com/sw/successes/customer-story.htm?record=Design-Dreams-LLC-1&id=5001)
Cheers
Jon
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If a gust of wind hits the left side of the body, causing the body to lean to the right, you have to steer to the right to compensate, which moves the body further to the left.
Tom
Jon,
After making a CAD drawing of your steering linkage (without knowing any actual dimensions), I see that I was mistaken. Turning to the right moves the wheel center to the left, which moves the body to the right. I think this is probably better, but I guess you're going to find out.
Tom
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Thanks Tom, post the pic that you sent me here if you want.
Woody has the model pretty much sorted, made a run with course mesh to get a prelim look at things.
No rude surprises yet, the Yaw study is the info I'm hanging for.
Here's a few of the pics he's sent me:
Streamflow:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/e8be48d7.jpg)
Centre profile slice pressures:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/e2fec562.jpg)
Centre plan slice pressures:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/9c212a59.jpg)
The hole I'm punching in the air (or hope to):
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/6459f321.jpg)
Will put some more pics up and some data when it's done.
Cheers
Jon
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Looking great Jon. It's going to be very slippery, and very fast. I still don't understand why the rounded nose is superior when I look at these projections?
Loving the build and your openness in relation to it. Educational stuff. Thanks for sharing this. :cheers:
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Jon, are you working with this one shape, only? Are you also looking at others?
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Thanks guys.
rgn; I've learnt heaps from this forum, most of it from people sharing things and others discussing it.
I hope to be able to give a fraction of that back, hopefully when Speedweek is done people smarter than me can share what they see here and the rest of Woody's work.
(there's some stuff I'm not sharing ;) )
Wobbly; hope not to study other shapes, my main interest is in the Yaw study that is still coming.
Cheers
jon
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Not much real work happening in my bike at the moment.
Caught up with the guy I'm going to get to CNC my body plug, going this way to make sure it's exactly as per my design.
I only spent a few weekends on the plug I have and I taught myself some while doing it so I dint mind leaving it.
Settled on the wheel fairing design I will use;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/8606DCF4-E3D7-4076-AFD4-1DA6E43D7865-545-0000012F4A09FA50.jpg)
Nose and tail for the front wheel and blended teardrop for the rear.
Have the rules changed for cable steering on bikes?;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/B463C87B-02A3-4ADC-A4E5-5F3F98D18BC6-545-00000131848382D1.jpg)
I have designed a linkage with zero bump but would prefer to use twin pull cables as much simpler.
99% of non commercial size planes are twin pull cable so they're proven safe.
Cheers
jon
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Hello Jon, I love your project! I use Solidworks every day and it is a great tool to build complex machines with very little of prototyping required.....very cool. You are working on zero bump on your steering system and that is an important thing to havve on a motorcycle streamliner. We had difficulty on Don Vesco's bike when Don had to steer into the wind, the linkage would have zero bump at straight ahead, but any turning of the wheel introduced bump steer and sever wobbles and sometimes a tipover on the side. The system I designed for the liner gave us zero bump steer throughout the full suspension movement as well as during all steering inputs. You can get the full information by looking up patent number US4610461-zero bump steer on Google patent search under Matthew Guzzetta. The system was used on Don's liner and Don also devised the system on the twin Vincent streamliner. You are most welcome to use any version of the system on your machine, it is a positive system, simple to produce and has no flex or bending loads in the system.
Hope this can help your effort! :-D
Matt Guzzetta
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Thanks for your very kind words and offer Max.
I will be sure to check out your system and try and learn from it.
One of the rules I set myself was zero bumpsteer over the full suspension and steering movements.
A single track vehicle, bumpsteer and precesion would be a deadly combination I think.
I will pursue a twin pull cable system as my first option and go from there.
Thanks
jon
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Can someone explain(breifly how the twin cable system wroks? :?
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If you are going with housing type cables as per the picture, couldn't you have both pull and push on both steering arms ie: 4 cables? that way you could have the steering cables under tension? Personally I don't like the housing type cables, as there is always a degree of flex. Pull push on both side might negate this to some degree?
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Thanks guys.
The steering pictured is hub centre steering.
Twin cables are just a way of replacing a push pull rod.
A cable does a good job of pulling, I don't trust them in a push situation enough for steering as they tend to bind up. I'm guessing that is why they were banned in steering systems.
By having twin cables they are both set up to pull and all the slack can be adjusted out.
In the picture above to turn the wheel right you pull the right side of the handlebars back which pulls the right side of the wheel back, at the same time the left cable is going forward (not pushing, still under tension), when you turn left the opposite action.
The whole system is under tension slightly at all times so no deadband when going from one direction to the other.
Planes have used this system pretty much exclusively for all control surfaces since the Wright brothers.
The advantage of this system that I'm chasing isthat by using housing type cables is if the ends of the cable housings don't move relative to the master and slave cable ends they are free to move realize to each other without anything weird happening.
E.G. In the above picture the swingarm can move up and down whic causes the the wheel to move in a slight arc changing the distance between the handlebar pivot and the axle, because this arc isn't changing the distance between the steered hub and the cable housing anchor on the swingarm there is no bumpsteer.
Theoretically you can do it with one push pull cable but not while my a$$ is on the line sorry.
Cheers
jon
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Loooong time I've posted an update.
Had some stuff happening that's been priority.
Woody and I have been killing a fair few email electrons getting some wheel fairings sorted onto my body.
I've been a little particular about the shape of them but recon the end product would put a horn on a jellyfish. :0
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/624A9DA3-B552-4E41-A72F-47DBC185430E-567-00000091BE3DE5E7.jpg)
Woody's going to see what the CFD thinks of it then do the yaw study that started all this.
Cheers
jon
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Jon
one small thing you have to consider with the wheel fairings is that the streamliner must be able lean 20° each way
It's in the rules
G
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Looking good Jon. Any update on cable steering aspirations? :cheers:
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Thanks Guys;
I "think" the lean angle will be ok, at a single point look it clashes, at a unloaded tyre radius it is good.
I will build it like this then test it when fully loaded wet
May need to take to it some with a beltsander on the edges if my guestimate is wrong, rather do that than build it a bit higher and then test it and find out i could have gone a bit further.
The Cable Steering is a happening thing, I have a few post it note engineerign drawings on my desk.
cheers
jon
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http://ifasgallery.ifas.ufl.edu/entnem/walker/buzz/489sl.wav (http://ifasgallery.ifas.ufl.edu/entnem/walker/buzz/489sl.wav)
any reports?
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No crickets here Goggles, only because the spiders hunted them though.
Been a little distracted with other thing so not much real work happening.
Just got the first pass of the yaw study back from Woody, there's good news and bad news from my first squint on my phone, going to cut down a Forrest and print it all on A3.
I don't need glasses honest.
Done a few little odd jobs is all, front rocker is made up, top pivot is in the yoke, gussets made up for the control arm mounts of the front yoke, a bit slack really.
Cheers
jon
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A slight hiccup in my build.
This went to vote and apparently got passed at SCTA meeting 3rd of November:
Current Rule:
Shall completely surround the rider and shall be fitted in the rider’s compartment. Minimum diameter is 1 1⁄4 inches with .090 inch nominal wall thickness, mechanical steel tubing. No galvanized pipe, black water pipe or threaded fittings are permitted. The design of the roll cage shall incorporate the following features as a minimum: Two (2) roll bars, (one forward and one after the riders head), which shall be tied together and capped with a steel plate .090 inches thick. The cap shall cover the upper 140 deg of the riders head. The roll bar shall be braced with a tube of the same dimensions on each side. Rider’s head movement shall be limited to no more than 2 inches to each side, top or rear with the riders head in the normal position. Roll cage padding meeting SFI specifications 45.1 for round tube roll cage padding and SFI specification 45.3 for flat cage padding is required in the vicinity of the rider’s
Issue:
Motorcycle streamliner and motorcycle side car streamliner roll cage tubing size requirements
Rulebook Section: 7.H.4 Rulebook Page No: 123
Desired Outcome:
To bring motorcycle streamliner and side car streamliner tubing and cage requirements in line with the car tubing requirements
Reason for Chg:
The current tubing sizes on some streamliners and side car streamliners (Speed X weight X Mass) is inadequate.
Side Effects:
None, (Will not affect any streamliner or side car streamliner that is currently running in the SCTA or BNI).
Desired Rulebook Wording:
Shall completely surround the rider and shall be fitted in the riders compartment. Minimum diameter is 1-1/4 in. with .090 in. nominal wall thickness, mechanical steel tubing in a vehicle with speeds under 175 mph. In vehicles with speeds over 175 mph minimum requirements for the roll cage structure and the roll cage structure braces are 1-5/8 in O.D. round steel tubing with a minimum .120 in. nominal wall thickness or E4130 chromoly tubing with a minimum .095 in. nominal wall thickness, securely mounted, gusseted and braced within 5 in. of the top of the roll cage structure. ALL ROLL CAGE STRUCTURES SHALL BE DESIGNED TO PROTECT THE DRIVER FROM ANY ANGLE, INCLUDING THE BOTTOM AND REAR. The front hoop of the roll cage shall be at least 3 in. in front of the drivers helmet while the driver is in his normal driving position.
It is my understanding and that of a couple well known current Streamliner Bike owners that it does not have a Grandfather rule and that it makes all current Streamliner Bikes and all but 1 Streamliner Bikes non compliant.
A fair few of us contacted the tech committee prior to the vote, to no avail apparently.
I've heard that Sam Wheeler (the benchmark in Streamliner Bikes IMHO) went with an engineer to the meeting, I've not talked to Sam since the vote.
This rule change request was apparently accompanied by this;
Issue:
Clarification/general information
Rulebook Section: 7.A.9 Rulebook Page No: 106 Desired Outcome:
To add same wording as shown in the car general requirements
Reason for Change:
Clarify the process of requesting deviations to current rule.
Side Effects:
None
Desired Wording:
Add 7.A.9: “ALL DEVIATIONS TO CURRENT ROLL STRUCTURE RULES SHALL BE SUBMITTED TO THE CONTEST BOARD NO LATER THAN 45 DAYS PRIOR TO THE EVENT FOR REVIEW.”
This appears to give an out to the 1 5/8" rule, just to confuse things further.
I believe that a properly built 1 1/4" rollcage on a bike will stand up to impact forces without significant deformation beyond what my body's internal organs can stand.
I welcome safety inspection on my bike, one of the main reason this build diary exists is for peer review.
See you on the salt, with my bike....
Jon
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G'day Jon,
Does this portion not give existing bike 'liners a free pass?
"Side Effects:
None, (Will not affect any streamliner or side car streamliner that is currently running in the SCTA or BNI)."
I feel for the guys with builds in the works as much as those with existing vehicles and hope something can be worked out.
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Before I contacted the motorcycle tech committee I contacted a few of the top contenders to see if I was just put out because my bike is non compliant and that they gauged it as a decent rule upgrade.
I received a fairly detailed response from Mike Akatiff that I post here with his permission;
"Hi Jon:
The ACK Attack frame and roll cage is constructed with 1.250" 4130 condition N tubing with a .125" wall TIG welded with 316 stainless rod. It has survived 3 serious crashes two at over 300 MPH with no frame or roll cage structural damage whatsoever. The most violent crash occurred in 2011 while testing the traction control system the bike had no body and was going about 100 MPH the bike tumbled end over end a number of times and landed on on its back and side from about a height of 6 feet a couple of times. We could find no structural damage or deformation to the frame or roll cage cage after this accident. While the SCTA rules are designed to keep the amateur builder safe I believe the design of the frame and roll cage while taking into consideration the material characteristics of which it is made is much more important than just throwing out some number for tubing size.
Mike Akatiff"
I have removed a sentence at the end of this that is not related to this conversation.
This is the fastest bike in world and I believe the heaviest, it's come unstuck properly 3 times, 1 of those in a pretty decent way with no structural damage to its 1 1/4" cage.
Cheers
jon
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G'day Jon,
Does this portion not give existing bike 'liners a free pass?
"Side Effects:
None, (Will not affect any streamliner or side car streamliner that is currently running in the SCTA or BNI)."
I feel for the guys with builds in the works as much as those with existing vehicles and hope something can be worked out.
Hi Rob
I don't believe so, I got this in an email from one of the current front runners:
"It turns out that current running streamliners would not be exempt or grandfathered in as stated. The
wording may be changed to existing running machines will be analyzed for
crash worthy strength."
I haven't heard of the final wording since the vote.
jon
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Jon, the AMA and FIM rules are relatively stable from year to year and they make a lot of sense My favorite is the FIM. They were hard to interpret at first but they are straightforward once I figured them out. Maybe the DLRA could run FIM, too. BUB runs AMA and FIM at the same meet with no problems. The frequency and unpredictibility of the SCTA makes it hard for the home builder. We are lucky to have alternative organizations in the States.
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Thanks Wobbly
I have the BUB rules, I put together a spreadsheet that has both sets of rules (BUB beingFIM/AMA and SCTA) and am building my bike to comply with both.
I have no problem with rule changes to increase competitor safety, think this has missed the mark by a pretty big margin though.
Cheers
Jon
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Hey Jon
I have been following your build it's great.
I really like the Cable Steer you are looking at.
With the Rule change
"The current tubing sizes on some streamliners and side car streamliners (Speed X weight X Mass) is inadequate."
Is that 300mph x 1 ton x 1 ton = 300 what? or Metric 480kph x 1tonne x 1tonne = 480 what?
"Definition of Mass
A measure of how much matter is in an object.
A gold bar is quite small but has a mass of 1 kilogram (about 2.2 pounds), so it contains a lot of matter.
Mass is commonly measured by how much something weighs. But weight can change depending on where you are (such as on the moon) while the mass stays the same.
It is measured in grams, kilograms and, tonnes (Metric) or ounces and pounds (US units)"
Can someone explain this formula to me? :cheers:
Pete
DLRA
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Just caught this news.... Really quite unbelievable. :?
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With the amount of prep work it takes to get a streamliner ready and the wait for ideal conditions, the best venue for streamliners of any type is Mike Cook's event.
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The rule change was put up in good faith although if you read the submission it was probably not that well considered
It Stated it will not affect any vehicles that were currently running. So Mcleish's sidecar is either not running or complies
and what about the Yaccoci Costello side car was this year
The rule got up because the car guys thought it was a good idea, and there were more of them at the meeting
It makes it clear that the rule changes are not evidence based as the only accident evidence came from Ack
who said even a 300mph crash didn't bend it. Sam Wheeler took an engineer to the meeting to show the facts and that didn't help
When you look at the longest span of rollcage in a motorcycle streamliner it would be no more than a couple of feet long. compare this with 200mph car, or perhaps a truck, which uses the same size rollcage tube.
They also didn't consider that you don't just knock up a streamliner in between when the new rule book comes out and the first meeting
of the year. Some of these things have been in the build stages for a number of years. Now anyone building one or anyone who has one ready to go has to apply for a deviation.
I got this from One tech guy
Deviation blessings:
Just as a matter of history, I have been witness to racers seeking deviations. It is usually a hard sell,
usually including "engineering data" to back up the request. Sometimes the good ol boys get deviations, sometimes the "other racers" do not.
It's much better to have some hard & fast, black/white rules for a builder to follow and feel confident that his project will pass tech.
IF we pass that new frame rule, I think it should not come into effect for a couple of years.
Talking to Van Butler and Lee Kennedy.
They said if anyone is building a streamliner, they should just send them pics and they will tell you how to make it as strong as the larger tube size.
So get on with sending your pictures to Lee Kennedy and Van Butler
G
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I have no doubt the rule submission is well intended.
I cannot see how my bike needs the same size roll age material as a vehicle at least 2 times my weight.
I plan to be ready to run on the salt about 600kg wet, I doubt if there are any cars much under 1200kg.
I believe I'm a bit over 1/3 of the weight of Ack Attack, their cage has proven itself 3 times and is still straight.
My main hoop is an eclipse 760mm (30") high by 580mm (23") wide with diagonal braces and two cross braces, the longest segment is 320mm long (13").
My front hoop is the same eclipse as the main hoop, with the longest span being 380mm (15").
The cage will be full sheeted with the same weight material that is required by the rules for the head area.
Time to get drawing on CAD to put to the tech committee.
I'm crap at CAD, can make something in steel quicker.
A minor hiccup.
jon
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Interesting comment from grumm441 post: "Talking to Van Butler and Lee Kennedy.
They said if anyone is building a streamliner, they should just send them pics and they will tell you how to make it as strong as the larger tube size. " from this I am then assuming that the SCTA is accepting the design responsibility for frame designs. So from this it appears that you can make your cage from 1 1/4 tube but it has to be to the SCTA's design????
There are some times that "the powers that be" in the SCTA make changes that are not based upon good engineering and fabrication practices, the 1/4 inch thick base plate requirement for cages in unibody cars is a good example of their "if some is good then more is better" thinking and this appears to be more of the same.
Rex
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"The rule got up because the car guys thought it was a good idea, and there were more of them at the meeting"
Ah .... now I get it.
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Me too Joe. I find it not a good thing that the car guys haVE a major impact on our, motorcycle, rules!!
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Jon, why are you drawing it in CAD, send photo's
And I should make it clear that it wasn't me talking to Van Butler and Lee Kennedy, it was a good friend of mine
I wasn't at the meeting but was given several detailed reports
I was going to write a longer post but as Chief Motorcycle Tech for the DLRA, a job I share with Shane Gaghan, I have to remember that sometimes my opinions can be considered that of the club I represent.
G
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Jon, why are you drawing it in CAD, send photo's
G
A photo doesn't show where the remaining barwork is going to go.
Tempted just to finish the barwork for the cage area and then send photos.
jon
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How much work is it to replace the main members?
I can't believe this.
It has the ultimate fallback for it's proponents though....
" what, are you against safer racing?" :roll:
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How much work is it to replace the main members?
I can't believe this.
It has the ultimate fallback for it's proponents though....
" what, are you against safer racing?" :roll:
Pretty much my whole bike as I read it as not only the hoops but everything out past my feet.
Then I either won't fit in my frame or my frame won't fit in the shell.
Show me how it improves my safety?
This rule gets introduced and then;
"The cars are much heavier than the bikes, the bikes have 1 5/8" cages, the cars should have 2" cages!"
jon
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This rule gets introduced and then;
"The cars are much heavier than the bikes, the bikes have 1 5/8" cages, the cars should have 2" cages!"
jon
Geez Jon
Don't say that. before you know it......
G
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I have no dog in this hunt---but that hasn't stopped me before: :roll:
I suspect that the thinking is that Liners with 2 or 4 wheels have much more in common with cars than bikes, structure and shape and are running speeds that are very similar---therefore it makes sense that they should have similar specs and rules. YMMV
Jon as some one who rebuilt my old car 3 times: My suggestion, finish this one as a MULE PROTOTYPE run it with out the body to shake out the systems, Start the other car with the bigger tubing----MENTALLY My experience is that tons and tons of the stuff caries over---but there will be lots of things you will tweak or change on the second version.
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Thanks Sparky
There is a couple fairly major differences between bikes and cars;
If we say the speeds are the same the most relative difference is weight, my bike will will be about 600kg (1300lbs) when it runs, I believe that Ack Attack is the heaviest bike around as well as the fastest at 950kg (2100lbs, confirmed with Mike Akatiff).
I've not researched a lot on cars but believe from what others have told me that 2750 (6000lbs) is a fairly realistic number.
Ack Attack is roughly a 1/3 the weight of a car even if I'm out a bit on the car numbers.
The other is speed, 3 bikes have gone over 350mph I believe.
Just scanning the streamliner/lakester records quickly I saw 15 records over 350mph.
That indicates tha cars have a higher speed potential than bikes.
E=MC^2 is the most well known formula in the world I think.
In this example;
E is the force a rollcage has to withstand.
Made up of;
M the mass of the vehicle
&
C^2 the square of the vehicles acceleration (deceleration in this case)
If the vehicles mass is 1/3rd and speed is same, the energy is 1/3rd.
If the vehicles mass is the same and the speed is 4/5ths the energy 2/3rds.
IMHO if cars and bikes end up with the same size cage the bikes are oversdone or the cars are underdone.
If my bike comes seriously unstuck at a decent pace it's not a deforming cage that I'll be worried about, it'll be the deceleration of my body.
A stronger cage isn't going to make that safer.
Show me it's safer and I'll shut up.
jon
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This rule gets introduced and then;
"The cars are much heavier than the bikes, the bikes have 1 5/8" cages, the cars should have 2" cages!"
jon
Geez Jon
Don't say that. before you know it......
G
I've already got an 8 second cage in a 16 second car. My class calls for 1 1/2, I went 1 5/8.
If that were to happen, I'll be hunting up a 9" and a small block and go drag racing.
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I've been advised that 4,000lbs is a more realistic weight to use for a 4 wheel vehicle.
That gives 4000lbs for a 4 wheel streamliner and 2100lbs for a bike.
At those numbers the bike frame has to deal with 52.5% of the energy of the car at the same speed.
jon
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I'll say it, I know many of you have wanted to :-D Instead of worrying about the size of the tubing I think tech should be more concerned with the quality of the welds. You have all seen them on the salt, posted here and other types of racing. Crest looking welds, undercut, too cold birsheetesque, you name it. Whether drags, circle track or on the salt, I am always seeing welds that make me go WTF? How did that pass tech!?
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I'll back you 100% on that Tman! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Energy is absorbed when a frame flexes or bends during an impact. Extremely rigid is not always best.
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I've been told that the gusset rule is partially in place as a sort of fix-it for less than great (and some times incomplete) tube juncture welds. In fact, I'm absolutely no expert, but I've seen this work in a crashed vehicle.
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I'll say it, I know many of you have wanted to :-D Instead of worrying about the size of the tubing I think tech should be more concerned with the quality of the welds. You have all seen them on the salt, posted here and other types of racing. Crest looking welds, undercut, too cold birsheetesque, you name it. Whether drags, circle track or on the salt, I am always seeing welds that make me go WTF? How did that pass tech!?
I spend most of my time on the salt at Bonneville in tech, Motorcycle tech. all the new cars come thru the the cover next to us. Iv'e seen the car guys checking tubing thickness and weld thickness with the ultra sonic tester. then I look at some of the places guys building these things think that gussets should go. and they still pass tech.
Then we stuff like the Killacycle electric motorcycle streamliner sidecar. It spent a stupid amount of time in tech, and in the end she packed it up and went home because it was just made too hard for her. I had a very good look at it at BUB and I could see nothing that should have stopped it running at Speedweek.
I've been told that the gusset rule is partially in place as a sort of fix-it for less than great (and some times incomplete) tube juncture welds. In fact, I'm absolutely no expert, but I've seen this work in a crashed vehicle.
The we looked at the crashed car from Japan that the roll cage broke when it rolled over, fortunately, the only thing hurt was pride
G
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The electric sidecar went home because she couldn't ride it. Got lost on course and headed for the timing tower.
The gusset rule was put into place because a lakester driver flipped at El Mirage and while upside down the cage was ripped from the car, driver decapitated.
Thanks for your input,
DW
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I have pulled out of involvement from the rules committee decisions over the last few years but not on this one and the overbore rules..... i was there to express my opinion as well as a few others including an expert in roll over structures and even Sam Wheeler (who's "liner in now illegal to run with the SCTA).... Mr Warner made an accurate statement " I think this one has been voted on" even before the rule change was presented and opposition opinions were voiced and heard.... this was jammed through by car boys and voted on by car boys even before the meeting..... The whole rules change procedure process in all stinks of back door dealings which ultimately gives the credibility to the SCTA-BNI a black eye.... 2 months ago the president of the SCTA (not BNI) asked the clubs for ideas on how to stop the dwindling attendance and how to increase the turnout.... I have witnessed the screwing up of the A to M class rules over the last 8 years and how it affects the motorcycle riders and their decision if they should run SCTA or BUB events.... the growth of the BUB event and stealing competitors from the SCTA is proof.... the narrow mindedness of those creating these kind of changes don’t realize the effects..... Van lied in his proposal that this change would not effect any currently running SCTA vehicle and the clubs and board members blindly believed him.... He blindly saw that only 1 bike lined raced with the SCTA last year but overlooked the fact that there are a dozen ‘liners with log books that have raced or could race with the SCTA in the future.... the voters dismissed the presented statements of 10 KNOWN 'liners currently being built with intentions of racing with the SCTA..... the voting car boys didn’t care.... they just jammed the pre decided decision through.... the "effect" is, the 20 something bike 'liners would probably never race a SCTA event ever again.... Never see a 300mph bike liner at a SCTA event again..... "no big deal" the car boys would probably think, "its only 20 bikes, we don’t want them anyhow, makes room for 10 more roadsters we just voted in a new class for".... the "effective" reality is the 20 something racers will mother F the SCTA to all their buddies even the ones who are thinking of building a conventional bike, you know the ones who are unsure because of the ever changing "A" to "M" class rules... I can just hear the disgruntled bike 'Liner guy (including me) say " "F" them your bike probably won’t be legal by the time you build it, go race BUB"..... Continued diminished entries and disappointed spectators is the real "Effect" of this rule change..... These guys writing and voting on this and other rules have little to know regard of the long term effect ot the organization…. So yeah i have 4 bike 'liners and 1 car 'liner, none of the bikes will see a SCTA event again with 1 going to the Vegas auction in January...... Fiat them
kent
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The electric sidecar went home because she couldn't ride it. Got lost on course and headed for the timing tower.
The gusset rule was put into place because a lakester driver flipped at El Mirage and while upside down the cage was ripped from the car, driver decapitated.
Thanks for your input,
DW
General thought, not MC streamliner specific:
One thing that always puzzled me. How do racers get the inside scoop on failure analysis? People who are building a car/bike need to know this kind of information before, during, and after construction. Since some of the req's aren't always relevant to a given model, you need to know where to spend the money/time where it will do the most good. If rule X has never caused a death, but rule Y has, then move money/time from X to Y. We build to what we experience as risks based the crashes we know of. So some stuff is not SCTA req'd but is absolutely critical for the application to be safe. This will get some people angry, but there are some SCTA "safety" items that decrease the survivability on certain projects.
This is probably why some rules seem odd to outsiders like myself. We can't tell what is critical. When we get squawked in tech, we have no idea how important that rule is, if our vehicle doesn't need that feature that was squawked. ie - Traction Bar Straps that do nothing, since both ends are already 100% captive and cannot come off or drop down even if the bar breaks in two. They must be there, but we know they could not do anything, other than the "safety" strap fall off on the track. Yes, I've picked up nuts and u-bolts that were probably off the traction/suspension straps during course walks.
Did the lakester in question have a cage or a halo? They are not the same thing. A coupe cage has an outside skin, often steel on production projects, often with a cage structure integrated from the factory, and a lot more triangle in it. There isn't just a few bars like a halo, nor can they touch the ground in many cases without a complete failure of the entire body and frame.
Why did the car flip is also important; blown tire, too low, spin, driver error, chassis failure, etc? Better to fix what causes things to crash, than to attempt to make a car crash-resistant. You can never make a car crash survivable. You can only reduce the risk. The #1 thing to reduce risk is to keep the car under driver control.
Nobody wants to crash, get injured or die. So if there is information out there about failures, we stand a better chance. Again, it will get people mad, but keeping the info private increases risk and is very, very dangerous.
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Justaracer, the car that flipped has been discussed here. You can find the details in a search.
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...
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Tman the car mentioned happened in 1984 or 85. It was a old drag race rear engine dragster with .o49 rails and cage. It was the reason for the rule change to add gussets and not long after that to dis allow early RE dragster type chassis. That vehicle was the only one that I know of that lost the cage and it was a single loop type.
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Tman the car mentioned happened in 1984 or 85. It was a old drag race rear engine dragster with .o49 rails and cage. It was the reason for the rule change to add gussets and not long after that to dis allow early RE dragster type chassis. That vehicle was the only one that I know of that lost the cage and it was a single loop type.
Yes, I am sure you were the one that posted that info before. You also stated that it looked like the rails were thin from grinding and putting a new hoop on.
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Trent, I never posted that.
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OK, I am thinking of something else then.
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Fortunately my 2-wheel streamliner is only in CAD and the university has only done minimal work so far on aerodynamics. I had spec'd 1.5in OD tubing as a safety margin over 1.25in OD chromoly initially.
Given "NEW" rule is now 1-5/8ths -- should I just go to the car OD tubing size of 1.75in to be "safe" for the future if further rule changes?
I can understand the new rules applying to new streamliner builds and yes it will cause us a headaches -- but I'm in disbelief they will outlaw streamliners (Sam's, etc) that have current logbooks and are running. I see no problem with grandfathering these in and giving them a 5/10yr window before they then are classified as illegal (or can be somehow widened??? to insert larger OD tubing to meet new compliance rules).
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I feel for this guys "liner build..... Mr Warner even warned those attending and voting that there were several people at the DRLA whom would be effected by this rule change as they respectfully mirror our rules.... those voting didn't care... my respect level for a few of them fell dramatically (im sure they don't care about respect from me anyhow).... But not my first rules meeting rodeo, ive seen it before.... In my eyes their 2 for 2 in back door rules jamming....
Justaracer, you ask how can you find out about failure analysis? Not from the SCTA or BNI.... every incident is closely held as per the cause, sometimes accurate rumors get leaked out but in most cases the unprofessional analysis of a incident shows up as a knee jerk rule change.... in this case no such incident of a 1.25 chassis failure has "EVER" been presented.... when i directly confronted Lee Kennedy about this and several comments about dozens of bike 'liner crashes without incident he commented " we just want to be ahead of the curve on this one" WTF!!!!
Knowing how the process works and witnessing it first hand, their is one last long shot in stopping this rule and that needs to happen this Friday night at the board meeting.... It is gonna take 2 (yes 2) very brave voting board members that feel as strongly as we do.... One will need to make a motion to withdraw the rule change for a year pending future analysis and information gathering and the other voting board member to 2nd the motion.... The motion could pass but knowing the board members its highly unlikely..... so expect this to get jammed through Friday and see it in print next rule book....
there will be no grandfathering in of old chassis.... to do so would be admission of a substandard spec as acceptable.... one of the most uncomfortable situations i ever saw was when Van Butler said he went over to Sam Wheelers shop and told him what he had to do too make his 'liner "safe" at 400mph..... OMG here is a wanna be engineer that probably cant even spell welder going over to tell a guy who has "built", "Raced", "Crashed" and Survived 3 beautiful streamliners how to build his liner!!!! OMFG!!!! that was embarrassing it see.... The second embarrassing statement was when Van said you could submit a design variance to the contest board 45days prior to the event.... My immediate thought was "OMFG did he just imply that the SCTA tech inspectors would now become design engineers to evaluate and approve chassis designs other than what they mandate is safe?" The SCTA would be very stupid to allow design deviation from published rule standards. To do so would open assumed incident responsibility and ultimately possible liability... But I saw them do this with the tire speed rating problem, it hasn't bit them yet, Russian roulette is not pretty... As someone stated earlier your chances are slim for a variance unless you are closely tied in and they like you (im out)....
This whole think stinks and is sad... all because someone who is tied in thinks their smarter than everyone else and needs a pat on the back for changing something that's not broke
Kent
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T G F B ----- BUB.
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very well said Kent. For me the Ezy Hook and the Akattack pretty much set the bar, their experiences are worth a Dodge sight more than supposition.
I would like to point out that this seems really bad for the US guys however in Australia we have one meet and it's run under SCTA rules, dead loss for the bike liner guys here.
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Crap Doc....
I know you guys kinda mirror our rules but man i hope you guys can head off this change.... maybe you can petition the DRLA to hold off a year to evaluate the effects of this rule... good luck
Just got off the phone with Craig Anderson, we've spent the last 2 years rebuilding his sidecar streamliner (flying Kiwi) to fit within SCTA specs. He has been racing AMA and FIM with Bub and wanted to add El Mirage and SCTA Bonneville to his race schedule next year.... He definitely doesn't want to build a new frame and definitely wont frankinstitch tubing over his existing frame.... He's not gonna race with them and i don't blame him....
kent
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I am another affected, just brought a part done liner that is pretty close to current SCTA spec , intending it to be included in our annual pilgrimage to Bonneville and hope to make Sept El Mirage again too.
If this goes as poorly as it looks Bubs and Cooks will get a lot of bike liners
DLRA use the previous yrs SCTA book but we can make rule changes ,
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Crap that sux Maj..... yep another dream of running for a record with the SCTA dashed.... as i said before, the SCTA did know of liners that this rule would affect... testimony was given at the rules meeting.... Van lied in his presentation to the rules committee members including the paperwork sent out to all of the clubs to vote on.... i think the correct information should be brought back to all the clubs for re vote but in reality the 12 clubs only get 1 vote each.... let me see if i can remember all of the committee's that voted on this "motorcycle" rule.... ummm.... oh yeah.... the Tech committee co-chairs (2 votes), the rules committee chair, the certification officer, the fire and fuel extinguishing systems specialist, special construction category chair, vintage car chair, vintage roadster chair, vintage oval track chair, vintage coupe and sedan chair, regular coupe and sedan chair, modified sports chair, truck and pickup chair.... ummmm oh yeah the motorcycle committee chair and the motorcycle head inspector.... like i said before most of these people had talked about this before the rules meeting..... opposition against this rule didn't stand a chance.....
kent
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Please exclude me from your list of voters. I DO NOT vote at that meeting. I do vote as a board member next Friday.
DW
Certification Officer
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Ok... I know you were there but i didnt pay attention to the fact you weren't voting at the rules meeting... all i witnessed was you trying to heard cats.....
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By pushing the rope.
DW
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It appears that the car racers would prefer that motorcycle liners race at other events. It is just not practical to change the infrastructure of a liner. The costs to run an event are extraordinary. The financial base is critical to continuing the Bonneville salt flats as a racing venue. In order to be financially successful you need all the entries you can get. Anyone thinking that they can eliminate any specific group in the interest of shorter lines is naive. Eventually the events will be shortened to reduce cost and then reduced in number to secure enough entries. There is a base of maybe 1000 entries and to gerrymander any away is silly.
Joe
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It's my turn to make a post here.
What I see in this thread is valid per the title -- a build diary. But there's also a bunch of discussion of rules and changes and such -- that maybe should go to a topic all by itself. We've got a main topic section for that: "SCTA Rules Questions". I'll create a thread there for "streamliner bike rules" or something - if one of you hasn't already done so by the time I get done with some engraving here at Kudos.
Both the build and the rules are valid subjects for this Forum - but let's make sure that folks that are maybe not interested in a bike build but would be very interested in the rules process have a chance to see the issue and discuss it. You start it - or I will, later. Thanks.
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"It appears that the car racers would prefer that motorcycle liners race at other events."
I don't believe that is the case. I think the proposed rule change was submitted in a misguided attempt to make the chassis safer. By requiring the same tubing sizes across the board it brings the rules into alignment for the fastest vehicles. The people sitting in a room reading several sheets of paper with requests for rules which will provide the requestor a personal advantage are easily swayed by a smooth talking sales person. It is a very long day and many of the people using their personal time and expenses travel great distance to participate.
I say "give 'em a break"
The SCTA does not pay for professional consultants or employees, there are no funds. For instance, the World Finals lost in excess of $56K. The people who are doing things like supplying their professional training do so because they have a passion for the sport. If you have expertise in a field specific to land speed racing then volunteer your help[. Negative postings, calling the people who are trying to help stupid and worse are not conductive to a healthy sport.
Your club recieves the proposals well in advance of the meeting. Participate if ypu care. Those not in a SCTA club can contact a friend who is and get the info there. This is like everything else in life, it takes a little effort to make something worth while.
DW
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For what it's worth -- the percentage of motorcycle participants at SCTA's SpeedWeek has increased each of the last few years.
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Changing rules because some "Misguided" individual that has influence all make good sense.... and in the end "it makes good toast!"
must see and turn it up.....
http://gawker.com/5959783/28-years-ago-the-today-show-aired-the-greatest-interview-in-television-history?tag=today+show
kent
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Note -- let's move this to the SCTA rules section. Pointless to screwup a good bike build thread!
New thread started here with the rule change statement per Slim's suggestion:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,12035.0.html
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Eva here.
Then we stuff like the Killacycle electric motorcycle streamliner sidecar. It spent a stupid amount of time in tech, and in the end she packed it up and went home because it was just made too hard for her. I had a very good look at it at BUB and I could see nothing that should have stopped it running at Speedweek.
The "endless" tech inspection of the "KillaJoule" electric motorcycle streamliner happened at World Finals 2011.
The tech inspection lasted all of tech inspection day and involved about 10 different tech inspection with at 11 different opinions.
It continued the following day in the they same manner, until the documentary TV crew showed up. At that point, suddenly, logic prevailed and all the paperwork was approved and signed within 30 minutes. It was unfortunately, at the very same moment the event was cancelled due to the rain.
The electric sidecar went home because she couldn't ride it. Got lost on course and headed for the timing tower.
The above is from a separate event - the very first we attended with the brand new (barely) finished streamliner (World of Speed 2010). Just couldn't get it to balance, as much as we tried. Passed tech then too.
After that, I went home and put on "the training wheel". :-) Now it runs like on rails! :cheers:
// Eva
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Ok
We have moved the tubing rant from Jons build diary to
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,12035.15.html
Ok
G
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On november 8 I posted "motor cycle streamliner for sale " .Idid that to generate some comment as i couldn,t find anything posted about this absurd rule change that worldwide had appeared to slip through to the keeper .Those in the Know of the rule change appeared to keep it to themselves . I am glad that it now is at least being discussed in public .paul penny Australia .
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Thanks for the clarification Eva. Too many events, too many years - they seem to run together.
I stand corrected,
DW
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Thanks All
Being a CAD Luddite I've gone for the TAP method.
Tape And Pictures.
Looking through the rear hoop facing forwards:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/B2A1C97D-A115-4551-9459-7E063E95BFDD-478-000000EE687D5577.jpg)
Looking from above the front wheel tub facing backwards:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/EE311E2F-5160-4D5D-9C0A-D4AE4B900ED3-478-000000EE93CCAAA4.jpg)
Side view:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/2D709FCD-0846-43E7-A7A6-FD32AB84C2F3-478-000000EE8B0FFC49.jpg)
Another side view:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/E1904E2D-39A7-4225-AE3C-C04BB188593A-478-000000EE7A7CB35C.jpg)
The tape represents 1.25" DOM tubing, the two longer ones from the top of the upright at the back of the wheeltub down to the bottom rail at the hoop they comes down from the front hoop then back up to midrail height on the back roll hoop will be rolled to follow the body contour, the rest are straight.
The whole roll hoop structure from the midrail up and the feet area (the non crossed square next to the wheeltub) will be plated on the outside using 2.4mm (0.94") FMS.
The rest of the riders compartment will be skinned with 1.6mm (0.63") sheet.
The lower control arm mounting points will tied into the the bottom rail, the wheeltub and the upright rail at rear of the wheeltub, the control arm will be boxed out of the riders compartment.
Going to submit to the Motorcycle Tech Committee now.
Regards
jon
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So, have those photos been sent to the committee? There is no requirement for anyone to look at a website or even Face Book.
DW
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Hi DW
Yes to the Motorcycle Tech Committee and to the SCTA Board (I think I got the right names from the SCTA site)
I know nobody is obligated to look at my thread and I wasnt trying to be as smarta$$ by posting the rule change here.
The pictures are on here for people to say "had you thought of ...." or "I'd do .... instead"
Cheers
Jon
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OK
DW
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Rolled the curved bracing tubes today and got them and a couple others trimmed and tacked in.
Looks a bit more robust than the tape:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/9B36936E-D19B-49F9-A5A2-1D5E598DA15B-348-0000002EBCD3FA16.jpg)
Regards
jon
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That's a nice toolbox in the background...
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That's a nice toolbox in the background...
Yours is it?
G
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Roll cab envy..... I was up your way yesterday Jon, was in a kind of a hurry though...had to buy a walk up ticket at BNE, needless to say it'll take me a while to recover from that $. :roll:
IAm watching eagerly and keeping my mouth shut on all the poloitics goin down right now.
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Dave's rollcab is very pretty, isn't it.
Im not sure if he doesnt like it quite enough to put his tools in there or he doesnt want to scratch it, his tools allways end up on my build table though, of course i would never leave them there.
I'm still using an old Cat toolbox I bought when I was 15.
I'll keep an eye out for you finger marks in the checking counter next time I go through Brissy airport Goggles.
Guessing you got a decent grip of the counter as they bent you over.
Shame you didn't have time to call in, I kicked the crickets out special for you too.
Want me to send the Pro Rage down?, I still have your snail mail address here somewhere.
Cheers
jon
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I like leaving my tools around, it lets me look over the shed and see all the places I've been. Makes me feel like I've been productive.
If you want me to take the pro rage to Melbourne I should be down before Xmas or early in the new year.
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Yes, I will borrow the pro-rage, for what I paid for that ticket I could have bought one, and a good bottle of champagne.
This morning after discussing the issue of some of our younger colleagues going over and above and setting a precedent that we didn't want to have to follow we, (the older guys ) came up with a motto........
Asinus in eam iam non poteris.
You can't take it up the a*** just once.
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If you bought Champagne they may have respected you in the morning.
Pro Rage is in the snail, I'll email you a tracking number.
Please don't sleep in it like Ross did, he REALLY likes them.
I'll tell Greg it's down that way, he may want to borrow it for a test fit as well.
If it's ok I'll give Dave you address and he can grab it when he's down that way.
He'll want to sit in your Tank and make car noises though.
I'm not sure what to make of your new motto, does that mean you intend to fly walk up tickets more often?
Cheers
jon
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I dont need to make car noises anymore, i downloaded an app on my phone that makes them for me. now i just press play and swing my hands around in front of me all crazy like. kind of like you when your driving.
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Does it dribble for you or do you still need to do that yourself?
Plants running ok then?
Did you see where Goggles bit the checkin counter when you were flying out?
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The plants not running at all, the whole field is shutdown excep 3 machines at CS2. its like this for a week.
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I dont need to make car noises anymore, i downloaded an app on my phone that makes them for me. now i just press play and swing my hands around in front of me all crazy like. kind of like you when your driving.
I thought that was you in the traffic
G
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Replacing Tape with Tube and adding more Tape:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/A3C36C95-56B0-46EC-A62E-9593B2EFCF06-2405-000001DC205E4A10.jpg)
The bars up the back that meet 1/2 way along a fore/aft tube are the seat back support.
Changing a couple of bars in the helmet area, they came too close together at the front and by the time I put rollbar padding on them they push my head down a long way.
The back will stay in the same point to intersect with the cross above the engine compartment, the front will move down pushing therm further apart, two extra bars will then go from the front down to the where the main hoop and midrail intersect.
Looking at the floor of the riders compartment:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/C5108772-F6B9-428A-9A6E-4D58A7190905-2405-000001E7FC0D75FB.jpg)
My butt goes pretty much on top of the cross in the middle of the picture, wheeltub is on the right.
Wheeltub:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/A0FBA98E-3228-412D-821E-01B28F91302F-2405-000001DD6969E1CB.jpg)
The two running up the back of the wheeltub will support the top suspension rocker and the handlebar mount.
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Safety boots?? :-P
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Safety boots?? :-P
Young people these days.....
How many times do I have to tell you, don't weld wearing Double Pluggas, the sparks go down between your toe and the strap and you'll get a nasty burn.
jon
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Safety boots?? :-P
Young people these days.....
How many times do I have to tell you, don't weld wearing Double Pluggas, the sparks go down between your toe and the strap and you'll get a nasty burn.
jon
Asbestos footsies.
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After a bit of rule clarification please:
I plan on having an ice water tank under my seat back.
Rules 7.H.6 and 7.H.17 both seem ok with it, I see a fair few cars with eskys in the drivers compartment, just want to check.
Thanks
jon
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Mike Akattif's post about the fire system got me thinking.
I'm running a Coldfire system, they make 3 different size bottles.
5lb which is 150 cubic inch and 2 different 10lb bottles, 1 is 300 cubic inch and the other 350 cubic inch.
I bought the 350 cubic inch bottles, this has turned out to be a stroke dumb luck.
The 5lb and smaller 10lb bottles have 30 cubic inches of capacity per lb.
If I get 11lb put in the 350 cubic inch bottle it has 31.8 cubic inches per lb of agent so still has more nitrogen per lb of agent than either of the other bottles.
An email to the local supplier resulted in a "no worries we can do that and tag it accordingly".
One of the ice water tanks just got bigger :).
Cheers
Jon
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2degree yaw study numbers from Woody.
Surface pressure plots:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/0F23C2ED-F0A1-4E0E-A961-6655F70F35D7-5274-00000688A7AFC5AB.jpg)
X,Y&Z forces: (http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/CF3170A2-4CCD-418A-86DE-075E1C511D31-5274-000006851305AC7F.jpg)
The resulting Yaw, Pitch and Roll:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/63400146-B6D9-4DBB-A3CA-3E905A64CF98-5274-000006845800576A.jpg)
Looks like most of the yaw input is coming from the nose of the bike rather than the tail which is fairly neutral.
Hmmmmm
jon
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It seems that you will need to look at a few different types of noses to figure out if the one you are looking at is optimal.
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Cut the top tubes out of the cage today and fitted new ones and diagonals.
I've decided to cut the cap plate into sections so that I can get decent welds on each tube to get maximum stiffness, will do all the riders compartment the same way, some inside and some outside.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/89200963-3E29-4FE4-A329-D4B784CDC7AD-1348-00000273462BB642.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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After procrastinating over Woody's CFD analysis I've eventually relented and he's doing a run with an extended tail, most of you will think it a little weird looking but it's has some logic, ;)
Will post some pics when Woody has it drawn.
Not that happy to extend the tail but that is what I got Woody to do the work for.
Decided not to try and make Lake Gairdner this February, I sat on ordering the CNC work for the body plug while the rollcage rule debate was happening (was on for a bit before it surfaced on the forum), now I'm into the silly season with no body or canopy plug.
I'll be at the lake to do some volunteering and learn some which can only be good.
cheers
Jon
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Jon looking good my friend. If you look back into Sam and Ack's, changes with added tail streamlining they both had some issues with the extensions. Wouldn't hurt to ask them. Keep up the good work.
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The BUB liner has a long tail. Somehow they got it to work.
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Thanks guys.
A day of welding, doesn't look a lot different than yesterday other than a lot of tacked tubes are now welded.
Top cap is on, first pair of internal panels are in:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/686FC65C-50AB-4074-B184-F2D31C410DBF-1348-00000373F2928741.jpg)
Ran out of gas about 15 minutes after the shops shut :roll:
Oh well, all tommorow untouched yet, sheet the seat back and firewall is the plan.
jon
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I was gonna say get some cheap bathroom scales, stick 'em under the bottle occasionally, do you use disposables?
we saw stuff didn't we Jon, yes, that no-one else saw 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
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we saw stuff didn't we Jon, yes, that no-one else saw 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
We certainly did, some seriously tough stuff, i didnt see the eals though....
Did you hear voices too?
I work in an office these days and most people are dressed a bit upmarket, a fair few guys wear cufflinks.
I'm a teeshirt and jeans guy, not about to change and now try and track down tees with 1/2 interesting slogans on them, got given one recently "I know the voices aren't real, but they have some great ideas"
Did you get my email?
Don't use disposables, Dave has a BOC account, I'll have to tell him he needs a new bottle :).
jon
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Don't use disposables, Dave has a BOC account, I'll have to tell him he needs a new bottle :).
jon
Don't tell him anything
just go and get another one on his account
G
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Well the accounts in my name so i had to get it, while dad doesn't have gas he works on my bike, it took me most of yesterday to get the gas... :evil:
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I always get stuff on my Dads BOC account
G
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Productive day yesterday, just not on my bike ^^^^.
He was pretty good, got me some alloy TIG rods, weird thing is don't need to do any alloy welding on my bike.
I managed to sneak in cutting out the firewall for mine while he wasn't looking.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, have you thought about taking your bike to the lake this year without the shell, just to test it, and at low speeds? Sort of like a rehersal when the actors wear their street clothes and do not bother with the costumes and makeup.
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Jon, have you thought about taking your bike to the lake this year without the shell, just to test it, and at low speeds? Sort of like a rehersal when the actors wear their street clothes and do not bother with the costumes and makeup.
Don't do it. Rocky Robinson and the Ack Attack crew could give you all the details about why you don't run the bike without the body. They tried a slower speed test without the body. Not pretty!
Pete
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I had thought about it Bo but canned the idea for a few reasons.
1. As Peter Jack said digging in rather than sliding may not be that much fun.
2. My desire to get there this year is not as strong as the one to get there prepared.
3. I'm going to have a ball meeting people, doing some volunteering and not having the pressure to try to achieve anything, hopefully help a few people in the pits.
Not much to show today, lots of priorities, none that were mine.
Managed to cut the other 1/2 of my firewall and tack the first 1/2 onto the frame.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/6C80A4BD-0203-437F-84F4-89C7D13EA6FF-3831-000005F7C1B4F577.jpg)
The humps in the bottom 1/2 are for where the lower of the 4 shoulder straps go, holes at the 1/2 way line are same and will be capped.
Will need to corresponding dimples in the fuel tank.
Drill holes in top 1/2 are to plug weld onto the roll cage tubes.
Cheers
jon
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Jon;
Your firewall looks pretty thick-- O.250"?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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its a bad idea to take anything that isn't registered or can't pass tech to Gairdner,because it can't be run.The 100 miles of of dirt road makes taking anything that isn't essential there foolish .... (like the scooter outfit Goggles?) ....and the best fun you can have there is as a spectator,there is no substitute for going unburdened ,with a hunger for knowledge,and a thirst for beer ..... it'll make the anxiety,stress and strain of having a racer there a whole lot easier to deal with. Yeah,I know you're taking Knackers' bike but that's no big deal.Once he's blown that up you'll have a five day salt bliss holiday.
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.
3. I'm going to have a ball meeting people, doing some volunteering and not having the pressure to try to achieve anything, hopefully help a few people in the pits.
Cheers
jon
Speaking of volunteering
We are a bit short of crew
G
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I had thought about it Bo but canned the IDE for a few reasons.
1. As Peter Jack said digging in rather than sliding may not be that much fun.
2. My desire to get there this year is not as strong as the one to get there prepared.
3. I'm going to have a ball meeting people, doing some volunteering and not having the pressure to try to achieve anything, hopefully help a few people in the pits.
4. I will have to settle Dave's mum down when he gets to race...
Cheers
jon
i think you forgot one dot point.
Firewall looks good. :-D
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.
3. I'm going to have a ball meeting people, doing some volunteering and not having the pressure to try to achieve anything, hopefully help a few people in the pits.
Cheers
jon
Speaking of volunteering
We are a bit short of crew
G
Apparently I'm one of your crew that's a bit short, got your clutch sorted?
Jon
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I had thought about it Bo but canned the IDE for a few reasons.
1. As Peter Jack said digging in rather than sliding may not be that much fun.
2. My desire to get there this year is not as strong as the one to get there prepared.
3. I'm going to have a ball meeting people, doing some volunteering and not having the pressure to try to achieve anything, hopefully help a few people in the pits.
4. I will have to settle Dave's mum down when he gets to race...
Cheers
jon
i think you forgot one dot point.
Firewall looks good. :-D
She'll probably kick you off and show you how it's done ;).
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Jon;
Your firewall looks pretty thick-- O.250"?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
The Firewall is 1.6mm (0.60") as per rule 3.F, there is no thickness requirement in the bike section 7.H.1 so I went with the car requirements. (up the back of the book car guys :-P )
I'm still struggling a bit with trying to meet this rule, the gusset rule, Glen's suggestions about needing to get the Jaws of Life onto my cage posts and my own requirement of having the whole riders compartment skinned for fire and impact protection at the same time.
It's not much use having a firewall that goes to the edge of the cage and nothining to stop fuel/flame coming around the side of it, I'm going to try and have a seal between the main hoop and the body but that is only as good as the body shell which is unlikely to be fuel proof if my bike decides it wants to assume it's natural position.
The two gussets for the main hoop are going to go backwards so that I don't end up with a fire hole in the rear corners of the cage.
The two gussets on the front are just going to be conventional gussets, again there is no requirement for gussets in the motorcycle section 7.H.4 so going with the car rules requirements.
Just to complicate it further my fuel tank is on the back of the firewall for best impact protection and balance so getting to the middle posts with a cutter isn't going to happen very easily regardless.
If it all turns to putty and I need to be cut out I think the easiest way would be to cut the nose off the bike at the front of the cage, hope not to test that theory any time soon though.
Jon
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Jon, I'm in a pickle. When I built the helmet containment thing in the tank I was looking at some SFI padding from MMS here in Melbourne, called them no dice , not even in Sydney AND he reckons it is 1 inch thick.....what is the stuff you got called, where did it come from? heeeeeeeeeeeeeeelp :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
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I only have the stuff for on 1 1/4 bars at the moment, I'll ask around here for some.
I got Orange Aid for my bars but they didn't have sheet.
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The Firewall is 1.6mm (0.60") as per rule 3.F, there is no thickness requirement in the bike section 7.H.1 so I went with the car requirements. (up the back of the book car guys :-P )
Jon
0.60" ! Now that is thick Jon! (Don't ya just hate those 'picky types'! :-P)
Looking good Jon ! :cheers:
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Different for us. When we were building it was suggested we use the heaviest plate we could afford for any particular part as when we were finished we would be needing some ballast and we would have few places to put it. Our firewall and our floor are 1/4 plate....our rear superstructure which holds the diff/axle tubes/fuel tank etc is 1/2 inch plate....that, is one heavy piece of kit.....
I found some SFI padding.It's on its way.
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Good stuff on the padding.
Yep it is 0.060", I am not building my bike with unobtanium to make it light but am wanting to keep it reasonably light.
The rollcage tubing is a fair bit heavier than required by the rules, same diameter but heavier wall.
One of the upsides of not going to the lake with my bike in 2013 is it gives me time to do stuff like this:
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=140895619558&globalID=EBAY-AU (http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=140895619558&globalID=EBAY-AU)
Anyone going Sydney -Brisbane in a ute?
Cheers
jon
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Hi Guys, I spent last night reading the local rules for the class I'm interested in running in, and my head is a little filled with questions. (nothing to do with this post)
I'm of the opinion that light as possible with aero that compliments hp to speed aspirations is the best way to go... probably.
Dr. I'm guessing that aero aids are not available to you belly tank guys. Would axle covers, struts and steering linkages made out of symmetrical sectioned material with a negative angle of attack in relation to the fuselage provide you with some down force not disallowed by the rules?
Sorry about the hijack Jon. Cheers.
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Hi Guys, I spent last night reading the local rules for the class I'm interested in running in, and my head is a little filled with questions. (nothing to do with this post)
Dr. I'm guessing that aero aids are not available to you belly tank guys. Would axle covers, struts and steering linkages made out of symmetrical sectioned material with a negative angle of attack in relation to the fuselage provide you with some down force not disallowed by the rules?
......funny you should mention that Ralph.Short answer no, then yes , and you get a pat on the head.
However, all is not the same, otherwise there would be only one type of fruit-tree.......keep reading.
If we had , say 2300hp, that may well be an idea.... if we had wheels inside the body........ if we had :roll: :roll: :roll:
Mass, rather than force from aero on the drive wheels is drag free, when you are hp challenged that is important....oh,oh, I hear engineers footsteps coming from every direction , I'm outa here..... :-o :-o
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Make sense... in a way. Aero comes into play as speed increases, weight requires energy to get it moving, it probably meets somewhere in the middle, but where does it end up... lol. (I know that's not a word) :cheers:
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My $0.02 worth, I do not want a large aero downforce on a single track vehicle, any yaw angle be it from a change in direction of the bike or from a side wind is not going to be that cool with downforce on a single track vehicle.
My accomplishments on the salt: 0.0000
jon
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At Bub's motorcycle streamliners wait at mile 0 for most of the day until there is nooooo crosswind.
Joe
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My accomplishments on the salt: 0.0000
Mine too! That figure means about 0 to me though. My aus scene personality rating is about = to -2.2365, I figure If I can pull it all together, what others think of me =0 I'll work at achieving my teams goals along with them, times running out. If I can't pull it together this year, I might turn up to annoy everyone, and I guess if I put my name down for some jobs, it will be pumping out the shit houses.
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I think I might be polluting the thread.
I agree with 55.
Such purpose built vehicles should not be asked to compromise. Design your Liner to do what you want it to do, within the parameters you feel are acceptable? A side wind that requires you to compromise design parameters, or performance logistics on the day should not be considered surely?
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Nothing is pollution on this thread, it's for the exchange of ideas and opinions hopefully, it's not to showcase or attract sponsors.
My whole bike is a compromise, I believe everybody's build is. The size is a compromise based on being able to see over the front tyre I chose, did I make the best compromise, will never really be sure.
Compromise on aero stability is a very conscious one, yaw/roll stability is more important than overall drag efficiency.
Woody's work has shown that theoretically I have enough available traction to steer my bike straight with a bit of a crosswind input wind.
He is currently doing some more CFD runs with a bit more tail, we run in the real world, a gust of wind during a run or the bike not going quite straight are both things that will happen, to ignore them or say I will input to correct it quickly enough enough to not unsettle the bike is foolish IMHO.
Cheers
jon
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Though I ride pretty slow, compared to many, I have experienced gyroscopic precession effect when leaning the bike into side wind and trying to run straight. Responding to the wind wasnt too difficult; trying to hold it was the surprise. Your mind says, "....leaned the correct amount, I can go straight.". Gyroscopic precession says, "....here, I'll give you a hand turning that front wheel!"
My son and I both had runs that took very strong push pressure on the right bar, to keep going straight with wind from the right. He had it leaned far enough to flatten the bottom of the exhaust and grind off my new heat wrap (@ 155mph, ah to be young and fearless again.)
You might enjoy reading about GP, there are formulas to calculate the force. Those are especially important for oceanic ship pilots to calculate rise and fall of the bow, when turning left or right in shallow waters. Apparently, the spinning stuff is pretty heavy in those big boats, and GP can pry the ends up and down quite a bit. Pretty interesting stuff, and.....for you it means, don't play in the wind. :-P
Great project to follow, we enjoy it and THX.
Regards, JimL
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Though I ride pretty slow, compared to many, I have experienced gyroscopic precession effect when leaning the bike into side wind and trying to run straight. Responding to the wind wasnt too difficult; trying to hold it was the surprise. Your mind says, "....leaned the correct amount, I can go straight.". Gyroscopic precession says, "....here, I'll give you a hand turning that front wheel!"
My son and I both had runs that took very strong push pressure on the right bar, to keep going straight with wind from the right. He had it leaned far enough to flatten the bottom of the exhaust and grind off my new heat wrap (@ 155mph, ah to be young and fearless again.)
You might enjoy reading about GP, there are formulas to calculate the force. Those are especially important for oceanic ship pilots to calculate rise and fall of the bow, when turning left or right in shallow waters. Apparently, the spinning stuff is pretty heavy in those big boats, and GP can pry the ends up and down quite a bit. Pretty interesting stuff, and.....for you it means, don't play in the wind. :-P
Great project to follow, we enjoy it and THX.
Regards, JimL
Just a question Jim,
Do you think any of the things you experienced with your bike could have anything to do with your front wheel being so far out in front and the wind/airpressure actually trying to turn the wheel by hitting/pushing the front wheel fairing?
I know about a little gyroscopic effects just from riding road bikes but im only just getting into racing on salt, one of the things i have been thinking about for my own bike is how much of the front wheel i can/should cover up and how it will affect me with a crosswind or pressure build up on one side of the front wheel compared to the other. It doesnt take a lot of wind on an area that big to become quite heavy.
Dave
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That is a consideration, however...wind was from our right, and after the first adjustment to get leaned into it, the steering pressure required was to the LEFT (pushing forward on the right bar). Other riders with large area streamlining have mentioned the same experience to me. It's also experienced with some street bikes at higher speed in side wind.
In 2010 I did experience the front end blowing away, in a giant low frequency wobble effect. That was my fault. When my twin-engine coupling gears failed, shortly before the event, I pulled the front engine and ran 750cc class with just the rear engine. That big empty hole in the front of the frame was not enough to keep the front wheel planted above about 145-150. Now, I have the engine more forward with a big water tank directly behind the front wheel. That keeps the front end planted well enough to lean into the wind, but then the there is more steering effort required. With little or no wind, you dont even have to steer at my speeds on this bike......just sit there wishing for more power.
Regards, JimL
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There is never enough power in the timed mile.
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Tony Foale has some interesting info on crosswind stability, from different bikes Naked's, Conventional faired bikes, Feet Forwards, Dustbins, and different suspension types and geometry.
Highly recommended reading.
jon
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Sometimes I think we have attached flow on the windward side of the bike and detached flow on the lee. The attached flow exerts less pressure on the side than the detached, and it pushes us into the wind.
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There is some interesting things happening on a bike in a side wind, especially when looking at the steering input caused by side loading on the headstock and the steering input it creates. I've misplaced my Tony Foale book again....
Anyway, latest from Woody, no CFD runs done yet.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/1C67CE5E-3B3A-47E9-8DD4-F0442AD32B37-8243-000008D628A4D744.jpg)
I did say it looks a little different, it's what I wanted and Woody reckons it makes sense, CFD results will tell us if we're heading in the right direction.
I'm interested in other's thoughts as always.
jon
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Your thinking got out of the box again! I really like the idea of carrying the rear wheel fairing further on back. Adding the additional area down low, closer to the point of traction, should minimize the effect of side wind. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Jon,
What is your convergence angle at the back? If your width at center of rear wheel is 14", you will need 40" in length from the center of the real axle to the rear end of the body to keep the angle down to 10 degrees, and 57" in length to keep the angle to 7 degrees.
I'll post it as a PDF and maybe someone else can convert it to jpg.
Tom
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you bike guys have my head spinning-- :-o-- I think you all just proved my point on why I run solid suspension---until it generates enough lift to not steer or fly---I just have to worry about how fast to depress my right foot 8-) much much simplerer
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you bike guys have my head spinning-- :-o-- I think you all just proved my point on why I run solid suspension---until it generates enough lift to not steer or fly---I just have to worry about how fast to depress my right foot 8-) much much simplerer
Minor Thread Jack...
Sparky, when you are trying to go 200 with 60 ci in an open wheel car you push the throttle to the floor faster than the motor can keep up with in low gear and leave it there until you see the 5 flash by.... YEWV
Back to subject
Wow Jon, this just gets cooler and cooler the more you guys play. I'm guessing you are not planning to push like Ack does although the right vehicle would be above the extended lower.... stay out of that box... it looks great
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Thanks for the kind words guys.
Peter Jack: the idea is length for yaw stability but down low for less roll input, waiting for numbers from Woody's smarts now.
Tom: my bike is a fair bit shorter than that, the flow stays pretty attached though, even in yaw the leeward side is attached so isn't correcting as much as I'd hoped
Sparky: us bike guys can't work out how to do scrub radius and wheel alignments, that's why we run single track
Stainless: if I'm ever lucky enough to be chasing decent numbers I'll be getting a push, I'd love to drive off but don't have the $ to throw at a 7th or 8th gear.
Missed bike transport by 24 hours with the written of Hayabusa, won't get it until mid Jan now :(, bah humbug.
Not as if I don't have plenty to go in with though.
Cheers
jon
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I'd love to drive off but don't have the $ to throw at a 7th or 8th gear.
A high hp-torque electric motor powered by lithium-ion battery with one way clutch tied into the drive system? Gear it like a conventional 1st gear for rapid acceleration to 60 mph... drop the clutch and call it a starter motor? :roll:
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And maybe get a Million Bucks from the government for building a hybrid?
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Hi Jon, DaveB gave me a link to this build diary and I've been enjoying it heaps.
Your research into attached / detached flow and drag in general brought something back from the dark recess of memory about a drag-reducing experiment on the hull of a competition yacht some decades ago - micro lines laid in parallel below the waterline. I looked for some confirming details on the web but could find nothing about that; If it worked and was subsequently banned there would be something written about it. The lack of information probably means that either the experiment failed or my memory was from a parallel universe.
There were related articles on golf ball dimples and the LZR fabric that Olympic swimmers use. Although the article I read said dimples help keep flow attached longer, I don't think they would help on something needle-like that doesn't spin (at least, not under normal circumstances), but fore-aft parallel lines...or you could be the first to achieve a LSR wearing a Speedo.
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Thanks guys
While the motor is out for the transplant a joey box isn't totally off the table, it will be of under house engineering standard if I can make it work.
There is another guy that's a fair bit smarter than me (doesn't narrow it down much ;) ) that's working on something very similar, might see if we can make a pair and a spare if we can come up with something that suits us both.
Just need to work out if I can now get 5kgs in that 2.27kg bag, was going to be fun fitting 4.54kg in there.
RGN: I like the idea of some electric drive happening but not in that manner, need a rule change first. (and get this bit built and settled)
Stan: Wouldn't take the governments money off them, they're obviously broke cos they can't replace my wheely bin.
Hi James: Welcome aboard, lots of very nice projects on here.
Your not going nuts (This time) search Riblets and I think America's Cup, 3M developed it for Boeing and used it on a race yacht but I can't find anyone in 3M that knows about it. Not that I did much looking ;)
Bringing your bike to the Lake?
jon
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Hi Jon
I think when Dennis Conner was Cup racing down your way, the TV guys were talking about a film that Dennis tried in a water tank and on a boat that had mini lines front to back.
Don't remember the final outcome of the product, sounded good though.
Don
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Jon
I'm not sure you need a rule change to run up to 3 motors, it would just be an issue of what engine class it would run in
G
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Jon
I'm not sure you need a rule change to run up to 3 motors, it would just be an issue of what engine class it would run in
G
Weirder than that, I'll tell you over a rum.
jon
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You should really include the rest of us rum drinkers! :-D :-D :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Hi Jon, out of interest, where does it say in the rules that an electric push off - starter is against the rules? A set up as suggested would as far as I have read not contravene any?
Edit: ( Is there a limit on starter motor size?)
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lets see now--do I have this right Jon---"You were doing 360---had hit the aero wall and your starter switch malfunctioned out of nowhere and you started picking up speed again, but when you popped your chute---that jolt must have helped it sort itself out?" :-D :-o :evil:
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RGN, as soon as the starter is used to propel the vehicle my bet is that the officials would rightly call that part of the propulsion system and if nothing else would probably cause class issues. Then again in a m/c streamliner that may not matter but I think it would. I don't think an electric motor plus an internal combustion engine fits any class.
Pete
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lol. Sparky, a sprag clutch like on any starter motor would prevent any forward speed beyond the limit of the starter motor gearing having any affect on the liners function.
Pete, I'm not sure if something that gets the vehicle going, but plays no part in the propulsion of the vehicle above the allowed push-out would be a problem...
I'm just putting it out there, the rules as I see them are to be worked anyway to your advantage. I've read about the easy-hook secondary gearbox, and thought if I was to build a liner myself electric would be far simpler. As far as I'm aware the liner rules state you can use any motorcycle engine combination you like, and as far as I'm aware an electric motor has no measuable engine capacity... they only have an output rating.
Cheers guys... :cheers:
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Thanks guys
I think there may be an Australian built bike liner that is doing something similar, it's not me though. Dave may chime in I think it was him telling me about it if we're "Lucky" enough.
I'm going to be flat out fitting a conventional battery system in let alone one with enough storage capacity to give anything a meaningful shove.
Riblets : http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/news/factsheets/Riblets_prt.htm (http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/news/factsheets/Riblets_prt.htm)
From the year you guys came down and got the mug back off us, we didn't really want it we just wanted to Plymouth you off some :p
I'll drink to that Peter Jack
Jon
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Thanks Jon - nice to know it wasn't my imagination after all.
Up to now, I hadn't planned on going to the lake. I'm fairly intent on putting the track bike back to street spec and make some room in the shed. It seems that I'm not as flexible as the young upstarts and am encumbered with a much more healthy concept of self preservation to be very competitive on the track. Trying to make a go with the wrong bike in the first place hasn't helped.
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There are a lot of us here like you - refugees from other forms of racing. A person ages and it is hard to compete. Or, a person has the memory of too many crashes. Here in LSR it is mainly the ability to think, imagine, design and build. That does not diminish with age.
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You don't have to come to lake G to compete
The chances of Goggles getting me into that car are slim at best, but I'll still be there
I go to Bonneville for Speedweek as well for the free drinks
RGN, it will not fit it into any class with two engines of different types. there is no 1350Ω class at present
you could ask for a deviation, but I think the 45 days are up for this year
if you put the electric engine in an F truck and pushed it it would be legal
You could try it on the chief MC tech guy but I'm sure the way he reads the rules it would be a no
I drink rum , but not that stuff you call rum in QLD, good in the parts washer tho :cheers:
G
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Got the bottom control arm mount gussets onto my front yoke:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/6D53D908-8B0D-43FD-9F23-4057FBBDA84D-909-0000013FE42A0D3C.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/2B8D1763-BD69-4DCB-9AF6-ADE6ED7961C9-909-0000013FDC682700.jpg)
The rose joints on both ends of the lower control arms will be between two plates so the bolts are in double shear.
Will leave the top plates off and the gusset not welded on the side of the tongue on the bottom plates so that I can tweak the angle of the plates so that the rose joint is mid travel at ride height.
Tossed the bits I had cut too short for the headstock rocker mount and got ones the right length tacked in:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/CD39B8D0-DE2B-4691-A30A-47CBF660426A-909-0000013FCDC29BBD.jpg)
The wheel tub is still only tacked up as it will need to come apart and out so I can fully weld the headstock area then go back, it will be welded to the cage.
Cheers
jon
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I've been putting off the front suspension for a while, haven't been looking forward to drilling a pair of 1" holes throughout my frame rails with a pistol drill.
Time to stop procrastinating today, I was even happier when I worked out my old Metabo with clutch is too long to fit.
I'm not big on product endorsement but can definitely recommend a Ryobi ONE if your in the market for a cordless drill.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/780642C7-1955-4F46-9858-B9286472D077-246-0000003CF751DFFC.jpg)
A couple of battery swaps, a few choice words and sore wrists later. (no cataracts though)
There is a solid boss going through each frame tube and fully welded, relieved on the top to get enough travel without binding.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/E60515FE-816E-43AE-BE83-0113A278F219-246-0000003CEAF8575C.jpg).
There will be a top plate tied into the frame and wheeltub.
Cheers
jon
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Jon,
I had to drill 5/8" holes in my 1" frame rails and use ferrules like you have made for the lower motor mount and it's a PITA. But it's not too difficult to start by using a small center drill first, then using a step drill. This works well if you can fit your drill within your frame rails. I, like you, couldn't. So as I opened up the outside with the step drill, I progressively (to try to preserve alignment) increased the twist drill size as to the same size as each step on the step drill. When I got it big enough for a 3/8" drill, I welded a piece of drill rod onto a standard 3/8"twist drill that was long enough to go thru one side, thru the lower motor mounting lug on the base of the motor, and reach the far side to ensure alignment. Ideally, you should try to find a right angle drill to drill from the inside. Those big twist drills simply do not like to drill thru tubing without catching and trying to break your wrist.
Now I just noticed that you have figured out a way to do this, but I'll post this anyway for anyone else who may have to do the same.
Tom
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Jon;
I usually use a small 1/8" drill to make a pilot hole all the way through both sides of the tubing. This way the hole centers are guaranteed to be in alignment. The trick is to make sure you are absolutely square with the tubing so the hole axis is not crooked. I made up a fixture that is a block of steel with a 90 degree groove down one side and it has a few small holes bored in the exact center and perpendicular to the groove. I put in a 1/8", 3/16", and 1/4" holes to act as pilot holes for drilling tubing. As you did, I use a step drill (available from Harbor Freight on sale for $10 for a 3- piece set) to enlarge the holes. An angle drill is useful for getting to the inside where space is limited. Your solution was clever.
The only way I know of drilling a round hole in thin sheet metal is to use a step drill, a counterbore, or a "fish-point" drill. Large holes can be cut with a hole saw but the edges are ragged. They can be cleaned up, of course, but it takes more time. I've never had success with trepanning since I don't have a mill. BTW, the very largest step drill is almost worthless-- its edges are not cut properly so it doesn't cut; it sort of pushes its way through the metal.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I too drill a 1/8 pilot hole in the tube and also have made a drill guide to ensure squareness and that the hole is in the center of the tube but then I use a Blair hole saw, which will cut a hole that is about .005 inches larger than the stated size. Very accurate and you can actually do a hole through a tube by drilling the pilot hole through the tube, both sides, and then using the Blair hole saw, which has a 1/8 diameter center guide, cut one side remove the slug and then reach thought the new hole, get the center guide into the pilot hole on the other side and cut the other side hole from the inside of the tube. The Blair saws are expensive but I think they are well worth the investment.
Rex
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I have a few drill jigs and use a lot of counter sinks and counter bores. I also have some very expensive aircraft hole saws up to 3" All have different pilots that really help with proper guiding thru tubing with pilot holes drilled thru the tubing, cut slow and good cutting oil.
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I didn't see where Jon was needing to make a hole in sheet metal bit since the question came up...if a ragged hole by a hole saw wasn't acceptable, a set of instrument hole punches would be just the ticket. Expensive but quick.
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2D;
We call them "chassis punches" here. Greenlee has made them for years. They were originally made to punch holes in radio chassis for tube sockets, etc.
They are OK but they do leave a bit of flaring in the panel-- it isn't completely flat any more. Of course you can get out the rubber mallet and knock it flat. Using a chassis punch on very thin stuff such as 0.020" aluminum causes problems; the clearance in the dies necessary to punch holes in thicker stuff makes them pull the material rather than shear it cleanly. I do use my chassis punches now and then for moderate- sized holes.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Thanks for pointing out easy it would have been with a hole saw, proper brain fart there.......
Went down this am to weld up the front suspension rocker support/headstock and realised it looked like it fell off the top of an ugly tree and hit every stick on the way down, cut it off and started again.
Pretty happy with the third attempt, very happy to have the front and back wheel both attached to the frame eventually.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/6E7C2CA4-5E09-44B3-B997-81BBAB2A3C05-790-00000061937FA282.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/3B6EFEA5-A207-4037-8351-C184A22EF144-790-00000061A0873573.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/E408454C-D20F-4BEC-987C-2082403834B4-790-00000061A8166F5E.jpg)
Start on the steering now.
Cheers
jon
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Is there something wrong with you if your happy to weld in a tee shirt so you can cover your tyre with your welding jacket?
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/3BBD7FD7-CDC7-4C5F-906E-127D2DA14A06-750-000000F5DEE42B7F.jpg)
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No Harbor Freight in Australia? http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=welding+blanket (http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=welding+blanket)
Enjoying this build.
Mike
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That is a good decision, Jon. You will grow back, sort of, if some hot metal gets on you. The tire would be permanently damaged.
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Thanks guys.
No Harbour Freight in Aus Mike, there's a private guy a few blocks from me that does me a pretty good deal.
I'm glad your enjoying the build diary, sometimes I wonder if it's a bit too simple to be of much interest.
My thoughts exactly Bo, back to work tomorrow, others will be showing off their beach tan, I can show them my TIG tan.
Started on the floor today, first section is flat:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/480006E6-E367-4104-9EDC-86E01FD2C870-757-00000120D90E47C0.jpg)
Outer sections are curved, just marked of the wide end at 20mm (3/4") intervals and put a slight crimp from there to the point:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/035B4BA2-FF90-47C5-8375-BF9C4DBC3F66-757-00000120E2E11DB8.jpg)
Most of this skinning will be almost flush on the inside so if I'm rattling around a bit I'm leaning on flat panels rather than barwork.
Tonight:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/44F853A1-19BC-4C10-B841-CEAA1A6A996A-757-00000120EB113A09.jpg)
Sorry about the crap lighting.
jon
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I'm glad your enjoying the build diary, sometimes I wonder if it's a bit too simple to be of much interest.
jon
I can't speak for others but this build is not too simple for me.
Keep on posting!
Don
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I'm glad your enjoying the build diary, sometimes I wonder if it's a bit too simple to be of much interest.
jon
I can't speak for others but this build is not too simple for me.
Keep on posting!
Don
Well, we've pretty much not the thick end of this nailed down then. Jon, a year or so ago Don actually managed to trick me into doing something (sitting on the ground while he took a picture of me)(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=862.0;attach=28287;image) , so that's me and him who enjoy the thread but like I said there's Don, and there 's the guy he fooled...
Are you being immodest?....... between the cagey and the unhinged there are few doing this (Bike liners) and documenting it properly. That gives me hope for a couple of reasons. One is that anyone who skims over your build diary with the faintest thought that they might want to do something similar will get a pretty quick idea that they have some serious reading to do, two is that you have assembled a pretty hard headed and experienced email list that puts you at the centre of an info cabal that means just a casual email enquiry from a stranger can be answered with a certain authority because the people that matter are only one or two degrees of separation away. You're doin just fine, and we're all lovin it.....................
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That darn Gus took the picture, watch out for him, he is ruthless. :wink:
There he is front and center, look at that evil grin. :evil:
Don
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Never said he wasn't smart or ruthless( after all he can weld with his backside)........which makes me think you must have one hell of a smart wife Don, and I'm guessin she's a looker too.... :wink:
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Thanks guys
I look at some of the other builds going on, a mada$$ supercharged flat Cad that looks like he's going to tip the can, Robfreys rocket ship, an aero quality Mid engine, a Mowog that has a degree in engine science and I post another bent tube or piece of tin.
I'm enjoying it anyway.
jon
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That Tig tan will pay dividends. It's looking good, your build. We haven't seen the tan though.
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It's Friday night here and I was down at the club listening to jazz and yakking it up with my buddies. Too much fun. I needed to take a walk around town awhile before I drove home. I asked myself, "why would Denis have that big tail on BUB 7?" during my nocturnal stroll. Imagine that there is a side wind. It will tend to push the nose over with a tailless design. The side wind will also push on front of the BUB liner. In contrast to the tailless design, the wind would also push on the tail on the BUB liner. Consider the rear wheel as a fulcrum point. The wind pushing on the tail would produce a righting moment that would counteract the side forces on the nose. The long tail might be a good thing.
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Undoubtably that is why BUB and others have a long tail, and I may be forced into one.
The problem is as you say the back tyre becomes a pivot point.
Any tyre only has a certain amount of traction available, if its working hard pushing you forward and you then put a side load on it there is a risk it will decide to step out, that could be a little unpleasant.
No work on my bike today, helping Dave with his.
Picked up a J Type Laycock to see it if has a place.
Cheers
jon
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While waiting for the Busa motor to turn up have been working with Greg Watters on how to get another gear happening.
Greg's build diary is here: http://www.dlra.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2006 (http://www.dlra.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2006)
A proven runner on a sit on bike.
We look at a fair few options from making one out of a car gearbox, Lenco 2 speeds, drag bike 2 speeds etc. most of the were too hard, to big or to expensive or any of your imaginable combinations of those options.
Ideally what we were looking for would fit in the standard chain line width, be small diameter, strong and cheap.
In among our research we came across the Laycock overdrives that at first look had nothing going for them other than small and cheap.
Wasn't after an overdrive, we wanted underdrive and the sprag clutch locked up in the direction that we it would turn in a bike.
We looked at trying to turn the sprag clutch around but as always the real solution is simple.
Turning the box around so Input becomes output and vide versa we now have an underdrive box that turns the way we want.
It can't be that easy though as the box will now want to start off in direct and not have enough pressure to shift to low until moving at speed, that doesn't really help us much.
By having a look at the hydraulic circuit we have worked out where to plug a few galleries and drill one so that the internal pump only runs as a lubrication circuit at 20 psi rather than the 450psi it normally works at.
The shift will be done by CO2 with pressure to hold it in underdrive then releasing to go into direct.
Woodshed and Underhouse engineering at its best, strong, small and home built.
27% is a big gear step but shift it first then it's got I put and output shafts locked together and just along go the ride.
One downside is that the bikes CANNOT go backwards in underdrive, I stripped on today and remove a couple of the springs that hold it in direct and packed the pistons so that it is in underdrive, it works the way we want but will not rotate the wrong way.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/89E1631A-D361-4097-9017-8288F081C592-741-000001071EC64A87.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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Jon,
Just a couple of questions. Does the OD unit use 450 psi to hold the clutches, bans etc to keep it in one gear, OD or straight through? When you use compressed gas are you going to use it over oil so that you are not putting hp gas into the OD unit? When the unit is in direct is the outside gear locked or turning?
Great thinking and it looks like a nice set up, think it will take 600 hp?
Rex
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Laycock / Gear Vendor 101 for those interested or bored.
Talking in the direction that they normally run not back to front as they will be used in our bikes, it's because we're upside down.
Output shaft is connected directly to the ring gear;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/99BA80AB-C777-4B0D-B60A-7AD5181E67C9-741-0000011A3AA19781.jpg)
Youu can see the sprag clutch in the middle and the friction surface on the outside of the ring gear:
The planetary set is 19mm wide similar to some of the big $ units.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/D61A7019-F818-41CD-A149-0E199B764975-741-0000011A42180852.jpg)
The input shaft;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/ED34E806-6B2E-40DA-A600-7F8A6FD8692E-741-0000011A4992F3EE.jpg)
The eccentric runs a small piston oil pump, the spline engages the sprag clutch and the planet carrier, there is a oil passage to take lubricating oil to the gears.
The clutch cone and sun gear:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/1D801ECA-F247-4F44-ADA2-D787821B50BD-741-0000011A50891E74.jpg)
The outside clutch engages the steel section of the housing for overdrive, the inside clutch engages with the ring gear for direct.
The springs push against the main housing to engage it into direct by default.
The pistons push on the bar you can see between the two studs the springs are on to compress the springs and pull the cone to engage overdrive.
The sun gear is fixed to the clutch cone and is a bit wider than the planet gear so that it has full engagement when the cone carrier moves back and forth.
In direct the springs make the clutch cone lock the sun gear and the ring gear together locking the input and output shafts together.
In overdrive the pistons pull the clutch cone and engage it with the housing so that the sun gear is stationary, the input shaft turns the planet gear carrier. The planet gears running around the sun gear turn the outer ring gear and output shaft faster than the input shaft.
The sprag clutch is only really used to provide drive whil the clutch cone is not engaged with either the housing or the ring gear.
Clear as mud.
jon
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Thanks Rex
We were typing at the same time.
According to the Gear Vendor site Blowfish is splitting each gear with 2000hp so it should laugh at the hp and traction that we have.
Hope not to run a CO2 over oil interface, we can totally isolate the pistons from the rest of the system and hopefully just run CO2 straight to them.
One of the benefits of running it as an under-drive unit is that it will spend most of its time running direct with the clutch cone engaged by spring pressure, if anything in the CO2 system fails it fails to direct.
Also by going underdrive most of the time the gear system is locked together so not trying to turn energy into heat and noise.
This is a joint thing between Greg and I.
Cheers
jon
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And you have been doing most of the leg work
Looks good though, should have mine in about 2 weeks :-D
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High tech hydraulic circuit modifications:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/ADDC20CD-5763-4936-AAD3-37B84D6055E5-323-0000001EA7106E3E.jpg)
Red is the original circuit
Blue line is a drill hole to get fluid straight from the pump to the lubrication circuit.
Blue crosses are plugs, I just tapped part way with a 6mm taper tap and put grub screws in with sealant.
One of the plugs was pretty deep, didn't have a long tap, do now.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/F06B1033-BB32-4927-89EC-A73745C616BA-323-0000001EB7E182D7.jpg)
Piston actuator circuit needs this plug removed and tapped for CO2 line:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/09CAD54D-18B9-4E36-AC96-9261D8E5F79F-323-0000001F2B0E6E38.jpg)
Stupid question of the day:
Will I get reliable CO2 sealing at 450psi with a decent bore and O ring with a backup ring?
I have enough room to fit a backup ring, it currently doesn't have one.
Cheers
jon
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A backup O ring sounds good, however I would probably use one of those fancy square section X ish shaped rings from your local hydraulic
supplier
G
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Is it not possible to simply use a hand hydraulic pump to actuate the pistons? Release the pressure to get back to direct? An hydraulic brake master cylinder comes to mind, if it can supply enough fluid. If not, add a check valve and possibly an accumulator, and pump it several times.
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Jon,
That little plug you have to remove is a "Sherex-Koenig" plug which is a plug that is dropped into a drilled hole and then you take a punch and a BFH and wack the little steel ball that you can see. This drives the ball down into a taper bore in the plug which expands it and boy do they get tight!! I have seen them take 10,000 psi they are also a true MF to remove. Can't say I have ever seen one removed that didn't leave a real mess, any chance you could drill a new port next to the plug and use it. You might check the Sherex on the web but most of the info I have seen is only about the installation and not the removal.
Regarding your O ring at 450 psi it should be fine, I would suggest that you lube them well on assembly and maybe a little oil into the circuit on occasion. Be careful about adding a back up ring without checking that the groove is machined wide enough to accept the O ring and a backup. Check the Parker O ring catalog for dimensions. If the groove is not machined to accept an O ring and backup ring then if you put a backup ring in the narrow groove, and it will probably fit, you will find that the piston will probably not go into the bore and if it does (using the BFH for installation) you will probably shear rubber off of the O ring because the groove does not have sufficient volume to allow the ring to compress when it is installed in the bore.
Rex
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Thanks Guys.
I'll check them out thanks Grumm.
I definitely hadn't thought of that Tom and I had been trying to think of a non CO2 method.
I think I will go with CO2 now though as it will let me make a smaller main gear shifter which was going to be electric solenoid.
My skid retraction may become CO2 too now.
The groove is pretty wide Rex, I'll do some measuring and asking today, which would be better an O ring with backup or the square X ring that Grumm mentioned?
I don't mind modifying the groove or making new pistons if needed.
The little ball had a different name here last night, I can't put on here what it was called.
I spent a fair while trying to dive down the sides of it with a dremel and eventually noticed the material wasn't coming out like cast aluminium.
I got a punch a used the BFH method, the ball is in an drop in aluminium pocket and punched straight out the back of that to where it just rolled out the gallery.
Then just used a drill to an sneak the rest of the slip in pocket out.
I haven't tapped the hole yet until I decide on a fitting size, that will be driven by the control solenoids and main shifter ports so I don't end up with different sizes.
Cheers
jon
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A bit shorter today:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/BFA9F82C-B3D2-4272-AFF0-6D362327AFBB-425-0000002371093747.jpg)
Going to be a bit of work getting it inside the original chain line width with the rear wheel flipped over.
Sketched up some endplates:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/90CCEE26-82B0-466E-BD87-A5EE256B7C5A-425-000000238CD53C50.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/FF57E6BD-1683-4EB3-946E-977D98B1C947-425-000000239F121B78.jpg)
And outboard bearing plates:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/C3529107-0DE5-4687-B0A8-92DDBAEBF290-425-00000023AB996518.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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Thats working out better than expected, be easy to fit in the chain line of the std busa wheel at that width
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I bought a burnt/written of Gen2 Hayabusa on eBay before Christmas.
Since then I've been trying to work out wether I scored a slightly singed Suzuki or wether the only thing more badly burnt than the Busa was me.
Got it home today and still wasn't convinced either way at first look:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/4E8972FF-A03E-4496-A00A-23562D325E8B-1080-00000090C5B3E48F.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/05A3181D-A4ED-41DE-ABC2-F54410A8D396-1080-00000090BD7151EC.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/8B47E013-922C-41CA-81EB-D227F4705071-1080-00000090CD0985E0.jpg)
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After a couple hours stripping it and a quick squirt I think I did ok.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/16D7EA68-AD4E-491A-A8F8-86D1D073A8C8-1080-00000090D470BAC1.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/E42B3F8D-D8E5-43AE-B88D-295F30E79DB2-1080-00000090DB1456A8.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/7742D8E1-B461-41FE-B6C2-64EFEEBE5E07-1080-00000090E16A1FF5.jpg)
Dropped the oil, it's clean, throttle bodies are free, one fuel rail looks a bit suss, probably be fine but its got to go.
Only thing that's a bit of a bummer is the coil's connector plugs are beyond it.
About 1/2 the sensors are toast, there's more good electrical stuff than I thought there would be.
Went to pick up the alloy for the underdrive end plates and bearing plates but old mates saw was on the blink, tomorrow apparently.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, I think I have a motor wiring harness, it may not be pretty, and any stock sensors you need. start making a list, I'll find my old lakester harness.
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Jon, I think I have a motor wiring harness, it may not be pretty, and any stock sensors you need. start making a list, I'll find my old lakester harness.
Thanks Stainless
If it's Gen2 stuff I would be interested in any of the standard sensors and plugs you wanted to part with.
What I don't need to get running I will want as a spare anyway, including the ECU if your running something else.
Trying to track down a source for the pins for the original plugs but a full set of the shells would be great.
Thanks
jon
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Jon, it is all Gen 1 Busa, don't know if there are any differences, maybe one of the smart guys will chime in on interchangeability. I know the ECU is different, this is all pre 03 so not the popular to hack stuff.
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Thanks Stainless.
I'm not one of the smart guys but they are different, thanks for the offer though.
One of the smart guys did recommend I hang out for the Gen2 (2008+) bikes.
Getting a Woolich Racing Logbox (http://www.woolichracing.com/LogBox.aspx) to tune the standard ECU.
Thanks
jon
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many of the sensors and harness are not interchangable
better to get the correct model parts
Jon
Eastern Beaver is one of the best sources for oem type connectors , but still will fall short on a lot you will need
i have a stock of the commonly used ones for turbo conversion with editor and boost control on a gen 2
and the various 2 3 4 and 6 pin connectors (nice waterproof connectors for wiring that sees a lot of salt )
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Thanks Greg
I have tracked down ECM plugs and the plugs for the Logbox interface and have box of Weatherpack terminals for the rest of the bike.
I've used Weatherpack stuff on Earthmoving and Ag equipment a bit, if they stand up to that 24/7 and pressure-washer crazy Operators they should have half a chance with the salt.
Will be hunting for the rest of the plugs for the engine sensors, coil, injectors and stuff.
Cheers
jon
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.
Went to pick up the alloy for the underdrive end plates and bearing plates but old mates saw was on the blink, tomorrow apparently.
Cheers
jon
hahahaha , "old mate"....bloody Queenslanders.....
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Hey Jon. Jon
Try JayDee Auto cables in Bayswater http://jaydeeautocables.com.au/
They seem to have all sorts of motorcycle plugs and terminals and are who I use when I get stuck
G
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Motor looks fine Jon. It's always a bit of a risk buying the crispy offerings, but it looks like you did alright in this case.
Here is a link to a Ignitech. They make fully programmable ecu's with provision for nitro controllers, injection, launch control, fuel air etc...
If you go into products then down to motorcycle connectors, you may find what you need. There is a bit of a language barrier, but they are good guys to deal with, and the prices are good.
Loving the under-drive, and the build in general. :cheers:
http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm
Edit: Didn't see Grumm's post... thanks for the tip G.
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Thanks guys, I'll have a hunt at those places.
The Ignitech units aren't bad RGN, I have one on my little NC30, Dave is running one on his build and on his Monster.
Picked up my underdrive conversion kit:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/A1B3EE5D-E181-40B5-8014-22530DC63DF2-463-000000573F47CDC5.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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Since you are wiring this liner up from scratch, it might be a good idea to house as many of the connectors and miscellaneous small stuff in some salt-proof boxes. This is a little one I am making for the data collection system on the Triumph. The system and bike is not very smart so I only need a little box.
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Thanks Bo
What are you logging?
I'm not sure how my logging is going to end up. I'm getting a Woolich Racing Logbox that will log all the engine data an I have a Tech Edge Wide Band O2 sensor that can log 5 channels of data.
I have linear potentiometers for suspension travel and a couple other sensors.
I'm not sure if I'm better off with two data logs, one for the motor and one for the rest of the bike or trying to get it all into 1.
I hope to end up with the ECU and most other electronics that don't need to be in a specific spot in the riders compartment.
The addition of CO2 for the Joeybox shift is changing a few actuators that were going to be electric..
Cheers
jon
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Joeybox?
Have you got a small macropod on the end of your motor
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Young_red_necked_wallaby.jpg/200px-Young_red_necked_wallaby.jpg)
Although it looks more like a small yellow dog than a Macropus rufogriseus.
Speaking of yellow, if you need some paint for your liner, I hear Goggles has some spare
G
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Sorry, truck driving thing from when two boxes were common, main and joey, there was still a fair few in the oil patch when I first went out there.
I don't think he has any yellow paint left, I went to the local paint supply for some yellow paint and they said all their stock had gone to Sunshine.
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Jon, the plan is to get baseline readings on the engine in its most basic NA configuration. RPM, mixture, cylinder head temp, exhaust temp, and manifold vacuum. I am just guessing this is what I need. Logging is all new to me.
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Jon, the plan is to get baseline readings on the engine in its most basic NA configuration. RPM, mixture, cylinder head temp, exhaust temp, and manifold vacuum. I am just guessing this is what I need. Logging is all new to me.
That will give you a fair bit of info to work with Bo, for mixture are you running an exhaust O2 sensor?
Jon
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A wideband sensor from a Volkswagon. Ther are spigots on both headers. It is used on one header at a time to check each cylinder.
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Jon, I saw you're on SHOrg, I was thinking that was what you needed then I saw your post. If you need any help getting it shipped downunder let me know. If they want a character reference, I tell them you're a character... :-D
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Sounds good Bo, a few runs with that to get your fuelling spot on then the programmable ignition should get things pretty nice.
Dave is going to run this knock sensor on his bike this year;
http://www.viatrack.ca/ (http://www.viatrack.ca/)
We got the one that connects to a megasquirt and going to try and log that output, if its any good we'll report back.
The LED is meant to be "burn your eyes" bright, we will need that.
Thanks Stainless, I've just got the "I only post USA", so I may be after a hand, they haven't twigged to my weirdness over there yet.
I'm sure they'll catch on in time, I've been on my best behaviour.
Cheers
jon
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I will try one of those knock sensors, too.
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Jon,
I just saw an advertisement in "Racecar Engineering" for the new Motec m84 controller at 1185 British pounds
(what ever that is in real money???) which probably is not a bad deal considering the abilities of the controller. I would venture that this is an area where spending a little money would be called for and Motec is certainly one of the industry leaders in engine controls and data logging.
Rex
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Thanks Rex
I'll check it out, they do make nice stuff.
I'll be running a standard motor for at least a couple years I think.
I have a lot of learning to do and I'm not even sure my bike and I will warrant more hp yet.
Cheers
jon
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This Australian Streamliner Bike Build “page” (40+ pages and counting), and Jon’s liner build, are both massively cool! I have learned a lot to apply in my bike liner build. Thanks to all.
The overdrive/underdrive unit adaptation is quite ingenious. Jon, good on ya for being willing to share and for taking the time to do so.
The downside is that I have a couple questions…no good deed goes unpunished!
Laycock and Gear Vendor are two different manufacturers, as far as I can learn on the web. Right? I have seen Gear Vendor under/overdrive units mentioned in Hot Rod Magazine, and have been meaning to get edumacated about them. What are the tradeoffs? Cost is one I am sure; the Gear Vendor costs roundabout 2700 USD new.
I am curious about the advantages or tradeoffs of using (1) an underdrive unit versus (2) using an overdrive unit with a shorter (numerically larger) final drive to obtain a similar top gear overall ratio. I ran some numbers (below) to shed some light, but there may be other considerations that I am not seeing.
I may be exercising my gift for belaboring the obvious again, but here goes anyway. The tables below are based on Hayabusa OEM gearbox ratios. The percentage changes in the 6-speed stock box ratios are 26, 21, 16, 12, and 8 percent.
UNDERDRIVE. I calculated overall ratios using a 38/20 = 1.9 final drive ratio, which might be in the ballpark for a stock motor. With a 1.27 underdrive, the twelve available ratios listed in order of ratio are shown in the table.
Gear Drive Driven Gear Overall Change Change Change
Gear Gear Ratio Ratio re 1 up re 2 up re 3 up
1U 13 34 3.322 10.073
1 13 34 2.615 7.932 0.21
2U 16 31 2.461 7.462 0.06 0.26
3U 19 29 1.938 5.879 0.21 0.26 0.42
2 16 31 1.938 5.876 0.00 0.21 0.26
4U 21 27 1.633 4.952 0.16 0.16 0.34
3 19 29 1.526 4.629 0.07 0.21 0.21
5U 22 25 1.443 4.377 0.05 0.12 0.26
6U 23 24 1.325 4.019 0.08 0.13 0.19
4 21 27 1.286 3.899 0.03 0.11 0.16
5 22 25 1.136 3.446 0.12 0.14 0.21
6 23 24 1.043 3.165 0.08 0.19 0.21
I think I would try using 1U and then go to direct and up through the gears 1-6. The percentage changes in ratio would be 21, 26, 21, 16, 12, and 8 percent. Note that the underdrive first gear gives a pretty reasonable ratio step (21 %) to the next gear (first gear direct), actually a bit less than the 1st to 2nd step (26 %) of the stock box. Nice! The result is effectively a 7-speed transmission chain that should help at the starting line. The Gear Vendors website raves about gear-splitting, but I don’t see advantage in doing too much of that in this application.
OVERDRIVE. Using a 1.27 overdrive and a final drive ratio of 48/20 = 2.400 to obtain about the same overall drive ratio in top gear, the twelve available ratios are:
Gear Drive Driven Gear Overall Change Change Change
Gear Gear Ratio Ratio re 1 up re 2 up re 3 up
1 13 34 2.615 10.019
1O 13 34 2.059 7.889 0.21
2 16 31 1.938 7.422 0.06 0.26
3 19 29 1.526 5.847 0.21 0.26 0.42
2O 16 31 1.526 5.844 0.00 0.21 0.26
4 21 27 1.286 4.925 0.16 0.16 0.34
3O 19 29 1.202 4.604 0.07 0.21 0.21
5 22 25 1.136 4.353 0.05 0.12 0.26
6 23 24 1.043 3.997 0.08 0.13 0.19
4O 21 27 1.012 3.878 0.03 0.11 0.16
5O 22 25 0.895 3.428 0.12 0.14 0.21
6O 23 24 0.822 3.147 0.08 0.19 0.21
Here I think I would run through the first 5 gears without overdrive, then simultaneously shift back down from 5th into 4th and kick in the overdrive. This would be easier to see if I could highlight the chosen ratios. The percentage changes in ratios in this 8-speed scheme are 26, 21, 16, 12, 11, 12, and 8. The result is an 8-speed tranny with quite close ratios for the top four gears. This is useful to handle the high part of the drag curve, especially if the power band has been narrowed. The overall 1st gear ratio is about the same as the underdrive case.
The stock bike has final drive ratio = 40/17 = 2.353 and first gear overall ratio = 9.822, so the first ratio in either the underdrive or overdrive setup, at just over 10, is actually a little better for getting started. Which we will both need since our rigs weigh quite a bit more than the stock bike. An over/underdrive ratio a bit larger than 1.27 would be useful, but you can only have what is available.
Am I on the right track here? I suspect that you have probably ran some similar numbers. Comments? Is that snoring I hear? Did I do it again?
Larry
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So, the tables are all messed up. If anyone wants an Excel or Word file, email and I will send it.
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Larry thats pretty much what were looking at
Jon is favoring the underdrive and i am looking closely at the overdrive ,
not sure about the downshift with the range change , but i suppose its easy to range change then shift
But to use it as an overdrive there needs to be lots of work on either changing the direction of the drive with a gear drive on the input or a sleeve gear
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Thanks Guys
The underdrive is definitely a jointly equal project between Greg (maj) and I, it is just on my build diary.
The advantages of an underdrive and getting out of there as soon as possible in a run IMHO:
Big shift is first when you aren't pushing hard against the wind and can afford to drop the revs a fair bit, I would have liked a slightly bigger step but we are working with what we have.
Most of the run the box is in direct with the gear train locked together so stronger, not generating heat or sucking power.
Any failure in the gear change system locks you in high (with the Laycock).
The chain speed from the joey back to the wheel is a result of the wheel diameter and the rear sprocket diameter, if the the main gearbox to joey is 1:1 and the joey is run at top speed as 1:1 then the joey output sprocket is the size you would run on motor output shaft if you could fit it (often can't because of the clutch rod)
If you go overdrive the rears sprocket needs to 27% bigger which will increase the chain speed or the front sprocket needs to be 27% smaller which reduces the number of teeth engaging the chain.
The closer a chain drive is to 1:1 the better it will live IMHO, yes I have a lot of opinions, I'm not an engineer I just look at stuff and form opinions.
To go the same speed in top gear I see little logic in overdriving through the joey box to then just gear down in the chain ratios.
Using the example of 20/38 sprockets with an underdrive/direct usage, to get the same top speed with the joey as Direct/overdrive the sprockets end up being 20/48(.26 which we will ignore) that makes the chain run faster or 16(15.74 again rounded)/38 which works the chain a lot harder around the front sprocket.
Sorry, I'm $hit at explaining things.
The Gear Vendor unit is a P type Laycock, unit, first built under licence to lackock and then Gear Vendor bought Laycock out.
Cheers
jon
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Thanks to both of you for the further info. The efficiency advantage is a strong argument for the under-drive approach.
Is it feasible to do the overdrive option by turning the engine around, front to back? Maybe with a long swingarm that straddles the engine, if you are using suspension. Custom headers going straight back. Long chain run though.
Either way, the unit does increase driveline rotational inertia somewhat. I just got a copy of Tony Foale's performance modeling software, which could answer whether it is significant.
Jon, I see more ingenuity and good engineering choices in your build than I saw from most engineers during my career. Unique vehicles and solutions make LSR cool. It is fun to still be learning things at my age – helps to avoid an ossified brain (I hope, anyway). I try to return the favor when I can, hopefully without being too boring.
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Quoting Heliophile, "Unique vehicles and solutions make LSR cool. " More true words were never spoken and I think that is the reason so many people are so taken with LSR, myself included.
Rex
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To go the same speed in top gear I see little logic in overdriving through the joey box to then just gear down in the chain ratios.
You can get essentially identical lowest and highest overall drive ratios from either the overdrive or underdrive setup, and thus similar acceleration at low speed (without a push truck) and similar speed at the top end. Either approach, you can juggle sprocket teeth here and there (within space limits) to get the desired overall ratios. I should not have stipulated specific tooth counts; ratios are the important aspect. Underdrive system advantage is less lossy at the top end, which is very significant, and also you have developed a clear route to implementation. Overdrive system advantage is closer ratios at the top end and a bit wider at the low speed end. I was just exploring and questioning to understand the options.
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The ratios and motor needs is where Jons and mine differ somewhat
the 750cc motor we are using is a bit peaky in its power range , currently it has run 238mph as a motorcycle but its very difficult getting off the line and into the power range , and i think i would favor the closer ratios up top , but in saying that i just put smaller cams in to try and get it easier to use
the busa has so much more torque available, that even geared very high it has less of an issue moving .
Had not thought about turning the motor , not that far anyway, had very briefly considered turning it 90 deg
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I have a lot if learning to do and I'm not even sure my bike and will warrant more hp yet.
Cheers
jon
I think there are a few people (Maj?) who might be wondering if the "bike and will warrant more hp"....because we're getting the feeling you're in S.F.F territory with the combo you've dialed up in the body you're building. My rice farming friend and I had a chat on the weekend about progress, and we are, to say the least, watching with interest.......
Jon, I see more ingenuity and good engineering choices in your build than I saw from most engineers during my career. Unique vehicles and solutions make LSR cool. It is fun to still be learning things at my age – helps to avoid an ossified brain (I hope, anyway). I try to return the favor when I can, hopefully without being too boring.
Yep, it's right on the money, practical and clever there must be more than a few like you Larry who are building bike liners who have seen this as a revelation. All so neatly presented here too. Cool as.
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To go the same speed in top gear I see little logic in overdriving through the joey box to then just gear down in the chain ratios.
You can get essentially identical lowest and highest overall drive ratios from either the overdrive or underdrive setup, and thus similar acceleration at low speed (without a push truck) and similar speed at the top end. Either approach, you can juggle sprocket teeth here and there (within space limits) to get the desired overall ratios. I should not have stipulated specific tooth counts; ratios are the important aspect. Underdrive system advantage is less lossy at the top end, which is very significant, and also you have developed a clear route to implementation. Overdrive system advantage is closer ratios at the top end and a bit wider at the low speed end. I was just exploring and questioning to understand the options.
Thanks for the kind words guys.
I agree that you can get the same top and bottom ratios regardless of whether you overdrive or underdrive.
What I was trying to say was I can't see why I would overdrive the secondary only to underdrive it again it again to get the rear wheel speed back down again, I was just trying to show what I was talking about using the those numbers.
Eg: if you want a wheel speed of 4000rpm and the output shaft is 6000rpm and the main to joey 1:1 (easy maths) as a underdrive/direct you could have 20/30 sprockets on the rear chain(1:1.5 ratio)
If you went direct overdrive the joey output shaft is now 7620 rpm so now need a 1:1.9 ratio to get the rear wheel back close to 4000 rpm so you can either make the back sprocket bigger and have 20/38 or make the front sprocket smaller 16/30.
The bigger rear sprocket increases the chain speed, the smaller front sprocket makes the chain rollers move more to get around a smaller radius.
Both those are undesirable IMHO.
If you wanted to run the back wheel faster than the existing output shaft rpm the case may be different.
Thanks
jon
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Oh look, a castle.
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Re the Laycock:
Guys, I think I had a major brain fart or senior moment or something yesterday. I will claim I was loopy from pain meds (I am laid up with a strained back). Anyway, last night it hit me that rotating both the engine and the Laycock 180 degrees, with the same chain drive arrangement, still spins the Laycock as overdrive in the wrong direction, if I understand the Laycock design. Duhhh (blush). The Laycock only works when spinning in the direction that rear drive car engines spin, right? The possibility of rearward exhaust and not having to flip the rear wheel got me all excited and I did not think it through.
Dr. Gog, it makes me feel young again to know you are more than twice my age. Oh, wait...maybe you are 16 and just cannot type. In the S.S.F. acronym, I am guessing that the first letter stands for "seriously" and the last for "fast".
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FWIW, I ran across an article on an overdrive shifting difficulty that may be of interest.
http://www.hotrod.com/newproducts/hrdp_0604_gear_vendors_overdrive/viewall.html
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Thanks for that, interesting reading.
To run as an overdrive the sprag needs to work in the opposite direction, I believe Greg is looking at possibilities.
Cheers
jon
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Hey Greg
I didn't get a chance to talk to you at the meeting
How is your streamliner going
Do I need to come and look at it in the next three weeks
G
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G
your welcome to come and look anytime , but its not needed yet,
not trying to be running for Lk G , may try for August , but thats even a long shot
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Bit confused about battery isolation.
The 2013 DLRA (2012 SCTA) rule book says:
"The disconnect switch or a positive mechanical control (cable or rod) for the switch shall be located on the front or rear of the vehicle, operable externally and be clearly marked."
This is in bold so guess its changed since I started building and buying bits, this is in the car section, the Streamliner bike section is different but I'm not game to bet they will remain that way.
Does that mean that this is longer legal;
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?itemId=270954228600 (http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?itemId=270954228600)
I think I know the answer already.
Does any know of a good switch that is salt resistant, isolates the battery, grounds the alternator and kills the motor that can be operated remotely from the riders compartment and from outside.
Don't want have to run the main power leads any further than necessary.
Trying to build to suit SCTA/DLRA rules and BUB/AMA, thought I had it sorted, appears I don't....
Thanks
jon
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You can put it where you want & then put a cable or linkage to the required location.
Sid.
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It's both easy and cheap.
Our car streamliners also have to have an oil pressure activated kill switch acording to the new DLRA rulebook.
We are going to run a cole hersy continuois duty relay next to the battery with a toggle switch up the front.
that way we don't have the voltage loss involved with long battery cables.
then this is another one of those things that when I start talking about, people start looking at there feet and shuffling nervously
and looking for and escape route
probably do it for under a hundred.
G
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My GV is about 4 years old, when I bought it they set it up for B'Ville. I was told by Rick Jhonson that they did not recomend the AutoShifter at B'ville. If I can remember correctly, I think they enlarge a by pass and the B'ville modified unit does not have as much drag or "line pressure". Therefore it does not shift as fast as a normal "race" or street unit.
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There sure are a lot of weather problems there. Hope you are OK.
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All good thanks at my place thanks Bo, got a little breezy & wet.
Some people are doing it a bit ordinary, second time they have flooded in 3 years.
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Not got a heap of real work done on my bike lately, been distracted by a couple of other little projects.
Woody and I are killing email electrons again working on the yaw of my bike again after the Christmas/New Year break.
One cool thing to come from a recent software upgrade (I think) at the smart end is the ability to show virtual oil streaks on a pressure map (my input is generally limited to a very rough sketch and a cryptic message for the next run).
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/300mphYaw6deg2_1A_zpsc790fa08.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/300mphYaw6deg2_14A_zps51eaad19.jpg)
There is a lot of air crossing the top of the bike and staying attached nicely because of the profile, trying to upset that a bit with a "roofrail" from the canopy back is one of the next two runs.
This at first look will increase roll from the 6 degree crosswind and have little effect on yaw, but........
What i am hoping to achieve is to make it harder for air to cross the bike and upset the crossing air to increase the pressure delta between the two sides of the tail by reducing the pressure recovery on the leeward side and increasing the pressure recovery on the windward side.
Hopefully then we'll start to see some correction from the tail.
The tail extension is off again for now as there is such a small pressure delta that it isnt doing a lot for it's size, if we can increase the pressure delta it may come back, I'm trying one change at a time on the base model rather than just keeping adding changes so that the effects of one change can be easily seen.
Another cool thing is this pressure chart for the midline down both sides;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/300mphYaw6deg2XYPLOTS_zps11418fbe.jpg)
And from that a pressure delta graph;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/PressureDelta_zpsfcb3967a.jpg)
This confirms that nearly all the yaw input is at the front of ther bike and very little correction from the rear, because of this I'm trying trying to reduce its input rather than counteract it at the back where there is a very low pressure delta. That is the next run, the base profile is staying the same, front tyre is going to get a bit breezy.
A really handy tool for non educumacated people like me would be a "pressure delta map" that showed the differences of pressure between the two sides as a coloured rendering, , wouldn't it Woody?... :evil: :-o :evil:
It's probably obvious by now that I am fixated on pressure deltas across the bike, IMHO that is all that is important in a crosswind situation, a high pressure on both sides has no sideways effect, likewise for a symetrical low pressure pattern.
A pressure difference will try to shift that portion of the bike sideways from high to low pressure, the bigger the difference the bigger the push.
The closer to vertical that the two oposing points are the greater the sideways action for the same pressure differential, the only surfaces that have no sideways action from a pressure differential are a horizontal surface or a vertical surface that runs straight straight across the bike.
There is very few of these, a thin line along the top and bottom of the shell and the bottom of the wheel fairings are horizontal, the front and back of the internal wheeltubs and a thin line up the back of the tail are vertical across the bike.
I'ts never going to be "stable" but neither am I, a little less unstable would be nice though.
cheers
jon
P.S. Woody is patient as well as knowing his stuff, nothing worse than a customer with an "opinion"....
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This is going to be one very fast bike, and it's already been an interesting story.
Is there a chance you might be able to knock up a little yellow dog image that can be added to the CFD images...they seem lost without him......
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Thanks James, hopefully my bike and I can live up to the expectations I'm setting one-day....
Richard and Janet have taken young Spot away for the weekend.
I've been misjudging them some.
I didn't think they liked bikes much but when we got Dave's bike fired up the other evening it was only running on 3 so we thought if we gave it a bit of a blip it may clear its throat.
When we did that a few times they came out on their front verandah and were waving at us, it's good to have the support of your neighbours isn't it?
I'll put a pic of Dave's exhaust on his build diary.
cheers
jon
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This is going to be one very fast bike, and it's already been an interesting story.
Is there a chance you might be able to knock up a little yellow dog image that can be added to the CFD images...they seem lost without him......
Knock up a little yellow dog?
No time for that now, you need to get things ready to roll.
Take care of the dog when you get back. :roll:
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He has a bit of a thing for yellow at the moment.
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Jon, your tail is thin and small and there are pronounced concave areas where it joins in the fuselage. It might be ineffective 'cause it is in the aerodynamic shadow of the body. Note how the tails are on salmon and trout. The taper of the main body goes almost to the rear of the fin.
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Thanks Bo, the tail has pretty good pressure recovery in a straight line, problem is both sides still have good pressure recovery in yaw.
Run 6, 6 degrees yaw, poking along a bit: left side is Leeward side, right side is Windward side, the right side is flopped to make it easier to compare.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/57E07938-C8BB-4FB9-BCB9-0F3A8CBD2DA0-1715-0000027231F483EF_zpsd95e8bfb.jpg)
The back section of the tail on both sides is above atmospheric pressure but very similar side to side from the wheel back so very little yaw correction, no pressure difference = no side thrust.
I "think" that this is caused mainly by the air crossing the top in a happy state because of the body profile, I'm hoping the roofrail will stop some of it and at annoy the stuff that does cross to cause a bit more pressure differential.
This picture also shows where nearly all the yaw input is coming from, around the front wheel area, the back 1/2 of the bike from the line above "left side" & "right side" is that close to being the same other than the very top at the rear that not much is happening.
It is interesting to see a very small area of higher pressure air bleeding from right to left where the tail tapers up, visible as a small darker section on "left side", that combined with the top view with oil streaks a couple post back lead to the roofrail idea.
In the future list of runs if the next two don't show promise is a twin tail to get out into free stream air a little better.
Trying one thing at a time in order of preference based on what i think may work, what will stand up to the bike assuming its natural position better and the ease of doing it (plus it needs to look "right" to me)
Again a disclaimer, this is all bulldozer driver aero from my end, it's only what I think I see.
Woody may choose to give some real input.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, you're doing fine! You can drive my aero dozer any time! :cheers:
Analysis is a process of discovery not an event. The visibility gets us thinking about things in new ways! :-o
I can't even stir my coffee now without doing an analysis first! :-D
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Hey Jon, a few pages back you mentioned a tig tan. There is a smell that goes with it if done right. I got some strange looks at the supermarket while I was buying a few Cokes. Last question, have you done some mig while wearing sandals?. :-D This is a great thread. Thanks man.
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I used to stick weld in a pair of old sneakers....until one day, while I was welding up my horse corrals, I was feeling pain and smelling smoke. I flipped up my hood, and looked down to find BOTH shoes on fire. At that moment, I found a great confusion......trying to decide which foot to stomp out first!
That was the day I went and bought the heavy leather boots. If you find you cant decide, it is time to do something different!
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I learnt to weld when I was about 11 I think. Not long after that I learned that slag is hot. I dropped a ball down the inside of my sandshoe...all I can really remember was how much my dad laughed , I ripped my shoe off so fast it hit the roof of the shed and there was a smell of BBQ...still got that scar on my foot. Lying on the floor under a car is my favorite when a slag ball rolls up against you and you can't move, I have a very neat circular burn on my arm right now from that....then there is the ear burner...... I currently have nicely tanned inner arms all the way to my armpit.....mig tan....The worst one I've had was when working for a friend making some inserts for a fish control baffle(????long story) and I was welding mesh, crack, crack, crack.....thousands of them, no auto helmet, probably did half of them with my eyes closed....burned my eyelids, that was more than a little uncomfortable. Yep, I've done it all..pants, shoes,shirt..car, about the only thing I haven't set on fire is my hair.
If you need a hand on workshop safety I'm not your man.......
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There is a whole process happening outbin the world that I hadn't even imagined:
Someone thinks " I'll make an electric stirring coffe cup", thinks its a good enough idea that they are able to convince someone to fund making and marketing them, then someone buys them........ I do lead a sheltered life.
Thanks Tauruck, there is a distinct smell to a good MIG/TIG/Stick tan.
No sandals here, they must be a popular Sith Ifrican thing, I worked with a couple guys from South Africa and Zim, I could always tell when it was getting cold, they wore socks with them. Double pluggers do leave a nice line though, wouldn't be as nice as sandal patterns though.
One of the handiest things I learnt from an old neighbor is that full cream milk is good for welding flash eye pain.
Cheers
jon
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Hmmmm
Dave seems to left the computer logged on in his name, I probably should have deleted that and reported it in my name.
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One of the handiest things I learnt from an old neighbor is that full cream milk is good for welding flash eye pain.
I can't imagine catching a cow while blinded would be easy...
Good to see two generations (yourself and Davie) involved in, and enjoying racing together. :cheers:
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Dr. Goggs, you need to work on the hair aflame thing to catch up with the rest of us and you haven't lived until you've had a small slag ball dance around in your ear!! :-o
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The latter always happens when you're lying in a confined space so your head can rattle back and forth between two hard objects. :roll: :evil: :evil:
Pete
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Minor hijack: Dr. G, remind me to show you the tattoo I sport -- of me with my hair on fire.
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I can say with certainty; auto darkening helmets are worthless when you are kneeling in a flaming puddle of acetone. The bright orange glow, inside the helmet, causes the sensing to stop working. This leaves you temporarily arc blinded while trying to stagger out of the fire. There are a lot of strange sounds going on, also, which I still havent figured out. :?
Mysteries of life.
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Hair on fire? ...done that with a torch. :-P Also dropped molten solder down my shoe on another occasion.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I just bought an "auto darkening" helmet which I really like "except" when you are laying on your side with the TIG torch in your left hand ( I happen to be right handed) and that arm looped over a tube and I am pressing on the pedal with my knee and I am trying to see the arc and the lens that the helmet looks through to cause the auto darkening goes behind another tube and all of a sudden it ain't dark anymore!! lots of fun! You get to see stars for a few minutes.
Rex
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Took a stick welding class once and wore my Bonneville tee-shirt. Burned the SCTA logo right onto my chest! :-o
Hurt like Hades but sometimes that's just the price of dedication! :cheers:
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ya never think about MIG throwing so much slag until your tenny runner catches fire... I guess that's why the pros dress for the part... :|
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!!!!!
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ya never think about MIG throwing so much slag until your tenny runner catches fire... I guess that's why the pros dress for the part... :|
I have been safer in my sandals than my running shoes. With the sandals the slag usually rolls off but with the runners it catches in the mesh and kinda melts in! :-D
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You guys are stating to give me the willies, sandals, flops and tennys in the shop? OOooo.
Sorry, I am an industrail Safety, Health and environmental manager by trade. :-o
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As a tradesman (welder) watching a lot of the car and motorcycle build shows on TV scares the h*e*l*l out of me. I have no idea why a lot of those guys can still see after using unguarded abrasive wheels with no protective goggles and no one seems worried about skin cancer, welding in T-shirts, despite the fact that the ultra violet burns that you receive can be deep and serious. Just an observation that continues to amaze me. :roll: :roll: :?
Pete
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Yea Jack, no kidding. wonder how the pretty car build host would look blind in one eye and a 4" scar running up his cheek.
Now back to our regularly scheduled build thread........
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Every person has their personal safety levels that they feel comfortable with . Since I was in my late teens I NEVER work around power equipment/noise w/o my ear muffs or ear plugs. Learned that from a carpentry mentor. But I see guys with ALL the gear, long sleeves, faceshield etc BUT THEY GRIND AWAY WITH NO HEARING PROTECTION!!!!!!!!!!!! I always have eye pro as well as hearing pro.
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A person can get tinnitis. The ringing in the ears that never goes away with the accompanying hearing loss. Don't ask me about how I know. Hearing protection is very important.
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I apolgise profusely for jacking this thread but everyone who chimed in added value. We need to be safe when working with tools. I raced cars that ran Mazda Rotary motors. They say the pain threshold on sound is 121DB. These things were recorded at 125 going down the main straight at the old Kyalami. Fans used to take the opportunity to find something else to do that was further away. Now we have a fight over the remote in our house because the wife says it's too loud and I say screw it I can't hear a thing. My favourite stuff, NASCAR and then NHRA. I shouldn't be giving advice on apparel when welding but I've done the shorts no shirt sandal thing too many times. If you need a rush go plasy in the traffic. The most important one of them all is eye protection. You don't wanna be a deaf dumb and blind kid. I've had the foreign object in the eye thing twice. One time it was while wearing protective eyeware. The headache associated with this injury will drive you to suicide and i'm dead serious. Arc Eyes is nothing compared. I use motocross goggles for grinding. Welding in sandals is quite cool though, you do that jig that Anthony Hopkins did in the World's fastest Indian and your friends will love you for it.
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I'm sure Jon is on the road to the salt by now so you guys can probably just keep crashing around in here for a while.
Sid.
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On the road :-), good to be out of town :-D
1800km down, only about 650 to go.
Can recommend the parking bay between Willcania and Broken Hill, can't recommend the steak at Cobar Caltex.
Countryside not looking too bad, a bit on the dry side but better than I thought it would be.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/14/8u6a3use.jpg)
Cheers
jon
P.S. Highjack away, that's what it's for, we shan't be taking this thread too seriously.
I agree on eye and ear safety, it's not negotiable, a bit slack on welding jacket when tacking and fitting, shoes most of the time but can't do gloves much.
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Hey Jon-- you're on the wrong side of the road! :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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good luck on safe runs and weather.
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Should be a fantastic drive Jon,talk lots of photos!
P.S looking at coming over your way in June for the winter Nat's
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That's a long way to drive. Holding thumbs for you Jon. Go well.
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This is one of those times that "a bit on the dry side" is desirable Mate.
You got wifi out back there?
Sid.
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/14/ytuzeryg.jpg)
Just about to loose mobile signal, 140km to go.
I brought some parts wash to share with you Grumm.
Back on line in 10 days.
jon
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Hey, must be some super POWERFULL car wash down there! :?
Turned the hood of his car from blue to white :-o
Happy Motoring :cheers:
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Jeez that road looks pretty decent! I'm pickin thats north of Mt Ive.
Sid.
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Back on the yaw topic, if I may. Many NACA and NASA reports are available at the NASA Technical Reports Server at URL http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/search.jsp. References useful at typical LSR speeds mostly date from WWII and earlier, before jet engines enabled higher Mach number speeds. Several such reports are listed on my website, and I am sure that there are many more in the database.
A very readable report that is germane to this yaw discussion is Hoggard, H. P., “Wind-tunnel Investigation of Fuselage Stability in Yaw with Various Arrangements of Fins,” NACA TN 785, 1940 (Document ID: 19930081581, Accession Number: 93R10871). Jon is spot on with the assertion that hindering airflow over the top of the vehicle will counteract yaw. This is likewise true of the bottom of the vehicle. This report shows to what extent dorsal fins on the rear portion of the fuselage counteract yaw, which helps to choose fin location and height. Fins on the forward portion of the fuselage destabilize the vehicle.
I plan to use both dorsal and ventral fins on my streamliner, 2 to 3 inches high on most of the hear half of the body. I am toying with the idea of adding side fins, to act as dorsal and ventral fins just in case it ever happen that I am sliding on my side hoping to remain pointed downrange. I am told that it happens. :oops:
Disclaimer: Always keep in mind that wind tunnel data taken from a model suspended in a test section is not necessarily directly valid for a wheeled ground vehicle.
Another interesting NASA article is
Benson, Tom, “Determining Center of Pressure,” NASA model rocketry website http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/rktcp.html.
I recently noticed that my polycarbonate eyeglass lenses have pits in them, even though I wear a face shield and ear muffs when grinding, and a helmet always when welding or riding a motorcycle. I wear ear muffs for just about everything except listening to music and my wife, trying to save what little hearing is left after open pipes, guns, wailing amplifiers, and having an artillery simulator go off just as I came up out of a gully, back when I was young and foolish (I am no longer young).
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Thanks Guys, back in civilisation, the isolation of Gairdner is one of the attractions.
Had a great time at Speedweek, met and hung out with a heap of people I've met via this site, too many to individually mention without my goldfish memory missing someone.
Was pit crew for DavieB, he had a pretty successful week, guess he will post up when he has some time.
Did a bit of time in bike tech giving Grumm a hand, was going to take a heap of photos, took very few, found myself busy the whole week.
Cheers
jon
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Thanks Heliophile, I haven't read those two, will have a look.
On the keeping pointing downy rack when our bikes get tired is the main role of the chutes IMHO, slowing the bike on a good run is a bonus.
I tried 3 versions of mercury switches before I bought a solid state switch.
The roof and belly rail CFD runs are still coming, the naked front wheel has us heading in a better direction, now to get the back to behave some and it's CNC time for a body plug.
Cheers
jon
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The chute is certainly the first choice for stabilizing a 2-wheel liner in a slide. I have heard a few stories of chute failure, so side fins might be insurance, at the cost of a small increase in drag. Just a thought, I haven't decided.
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Jon, I hope you don't mind if I hijack your site for a few minutes. I have a question that I also posted under tech questions, but thought I might catch someone here who knows the answer.
The SCTA rulebook, motorcycle section, paragraph 7.H.13 Parachute, states that an automatic mechanism is required to actuate the parachute. The laid over angle at which the system is required to actuate is different for closed tail liners (50 deg.) and open tail liners (80 deg.).
One obvious difference between the two configurations is that the drag coefficient may be somewhat larger for an open tail configuration. However, I do not see that the drag coefficient should affect the lean angle at which the parachute deployment system is required to actuate.
I can still build my streamliner either way, but I am leaning (no pun intended) toward an open tail configuration because parachute deployment cannot be prevented by a door that fails to open.
Why is the automatic actuation angle requirement different?
Is there some difference between open and closed tail design that I should be aware of?
Can anyone refer me to someone who may know more about this?
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Hi Larry
Highjack away :)
My guess it has something to do with the door opening time of the closed tail and wether they can open when we're laying on our sides.
An open tail bike can throw its chutes laying on its side, a closed tail may have its doors held shut by the salt if its assumed its natural position (on its side).
I messed with several mercury switches and also made some, I would advise not using them.
A bit of a shake triggers most of the bought ones because the tubes are short.
I made a nice v tube one and a vibration broke up the mercury into small balls and it wouldn't reliably trigger, I would get well past the trigger angle about 2-3 times out of 20, nowhere near good enough to use on anything let alone for a safety item.
Looked at pendulums, rolling balls etc and couldn't find anything that I was confident wouldn't either false trigger or not trigger when it goes bad.
I ended up buying one (and a spare) of these;
http://hmbe.com.au/products/2-axis-tilt-switch (http://hmbe.com.au/products/2-axis-tilt-switch)
At Aus Speedweek I saw a fair few people having difficulty with licencing runs going over or under by a small amount.
I'm not running gauges just a few idiot lights as I don't want to distract myself.
Hummingbird are custom programming a GPS based speed alert for me.
I will be able to set the speed I want and the screen will change colour at that speed and then flash if I got 10mph above that speed, e.g. if I'm doing my 150mph licencing run I will set it at 150, the screen changes from blue to red at 150, if I go over 160 the screen flashes blue/red.
I will put it with the idiot lights just below screen level so I can see it in my peripheral Visio without looking.
The unit will also store max speed.
http://hmbe.com.au/products/gps-speed-alert (http://hmbe.com.au/products/gps-speed-alert)
If anyone is interested just tell them you want one programmed the same as Jon's Streamliner Bike.
I'm not sponsored by them, I've paid for mine, just thought someone may be interested.
jon
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I think you are correct, it is probably just a matter of having to get the door open before it is down. I cannot think of another reason.
I bought the hummingbird tilt switch (yup, and a spare) after I saw it on this diary a while back. Thanks for that. Cool bit, reasonable price, and they will ship to the US.
An obvious difference between the two configurations is that the drag coefficient could be expected to be larger for an open tail configuration. I found some published data (in Hoerner, Fluid Dynamic Drag, 1958) that says that truncating a streamlined body at a point at which the width is about 25% of the maximum width, which is equivalent to lopping roughly 10% of the body length off the tail end, increases the drag coefficient by only about 2%! I am guessing that the pressure drag increases and the skin friction drag decreases. It is a bit surprising that the drag penalty is not larger. Have you by chance looked at this in your CFD runs? Anybody else?
I have been thinking about using my Garmin GPS as a speed indicator. It doesn’t flash, and I don’t know if it has a speed upper limit. I see that the Hummingbird maximum warning set speed is 300 kph (180 mph), which is good for at least the first few license brackets. I like the screen color change and warning buzzer/flasher features.
I plan to use gauges, mounted outside of my vision line, and not look at them during a run. I want to document things like water tank and engine temperature and AF ratios for post-run review. I plan to record the gauge readings with my digital camera, which takes good videos. Not all of my gauges can send signals to a data recorder, which I do not have (at least not yet…). I will locate the tach (and/or shift light) and the speedometer just below or above my line of vision.
Larry
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Heliophile= Larry Pater? I forget but if you are, thanks for posting!
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The SCTA rulebook, motorcycle section, paragraph 7.H.13 Parachute, states that an automatic mechanism is required to actuate the parachute. The laid over angle at which the system is required to actuate is different for closed tail liners (50 deg.) and open tail liners (80 deg.).
I think it is safe to say that at 50 degrees the liner is going to crash, and at 80 degrees it already has. Personally I would want deployment to have started at 45-50 degrees. This would negate most chance of flush streamlined doors being trapped closed (if you were using them). While conventional central rear facing tubed parachutes may have a drag penalty, I think the simplicity in operational terms is compelling. I’m a fan of ballistics also. I have read there are some concerns regarding their use in motor sport, I don’t see the problem with a properly engineered system?
We are talking degrees away from the vertical? And are the deployment fall over angles flexible or fixed at the specific angles of 50 and 80 degrees respectively by the rules?
I’m thinking of a chute for a sit on bike I’m planning, it will be either part of the bike, or on the rider in the hump, along with an airbag. The humming bird switch looks the business.
This thread gets more interesting every time I check in. :cheers:
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Hi
If you ask hummingbird for the speed alert programmed the same as mine it will let you set the speed up to 999, which is the limit of the display.
What motor are you using again sorry Larry?
Have you looked to see if someone has hacked your model ECU?
The Hayabusa ECU has been hacked by a heap of people way smarter than me, this lets me do quite a bit with it, one of those things is hooking up a "Logbox" from Woolich Racing that logs all the sensors on the motor as well as a wide and O2 sensor.
I did look at "Kammback"ing my bike at one stage but it didn't seem hard enough ;)
I havens done any CFD work on it.
If your bored google "Kammback", it should get some very interesting reading and it explains the shape of the rear of a lot of modern hatchback cars.
The tilt angles are a maximum not a must.
I'm setting my tilt switch at 40 degrees, I believe I have 3/5ths of not much chance of getting back vertical from there, especially as my wheel fairings will touch down well before then.
jon
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I’m thinking of a chute for a sit on bike I’m planning, it will be either part of the bike, or on the rider in the hump, along with an airbag. The humming bird switch looks the business.
This thread gets more interesting every time I check in. :cheers:
And from what ive seen you're no stranger to chutes in unusual applications Ralph. . . . :evil:
however just mentioning that means a whole lot of people here are going to get spam from our least favorite know it all . . . . . .
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After a fairly large slack attack I got onto my bike today, not a lot to look at, mainly welding up tacked tubes.
Front suspension lower mounts and a couple of gussets to tie them back into the triangulated section of the frame;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/D95D3908-9859-4F83-96C2-FBA888D34852-269-00000012BD257397_zps390a6d48.jpg)
A couple of panels in the riders compartment;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/63A0CCFB-6637-4CFB-ACE2-2015B3BEAB6E-269-00000012C72AEFDD_zps4d73c702.jpg)
A job I've been dreading, welded up the front wheeltub and flapdisked the back of the welds inside the tub;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/DC5C104C-97B1-4300-AD9F-D2E1C0C57A75-269-00000012D60A96A2_zpsf760d538.jpg)
Hope to get the wheeltub in and welded and the foot well area skinned tomorrow.
Cheers
jon
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You're not welding the wheel tub in to the frame are you?
G
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You're not welding the wheel tub in to the frame are you?
G
Yep, it doesn't go in and out with the front welded up, I have to leave the front of the tub unwelded and spring it to get it there and finish welding it.
After its in I'll cut a removable hatch into the the top so I can get in clean it out, there's a whole lot more clearance than the grey liner.
I know I'll be cursing on the lake cleaning it out and you walk past and say "told you so" and you'll be right.
The whole front yoke & wheel assembly drops out with 5 rose jointed bolts.
jon
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I’m thinking of a chute for a sit on bike I’m planning, it will be either part of the bike, or on the rider in the hump, along with an airbag. The humming bird switch looks the business.
This thread gets more interesting every time I check in. :cheers:
And from what ive seen you're no stranger to chutes in unusual applications Ralph. . . . :evil:
however just mentioning that means a whole lot of people here are going to get spam from our least favorite know it all . . . . . .
To clarify:
I am well aware that RGN has prior experience using parachutes in unusual situations.
My reference to "our least favorite know-it-all" is in reference to a forum user ( FR) who has been banned previously and who regularly sends group emails to many people here that are usually opinionated and can often be offensive, I have finally worked out how to avoid the initial emails and now only receive them if recipients "reply-all". As a general comment if you do receive them please reply only to those people who you wish to see the emails, I for one am not one of them.
Thanks
Sorry to RGN for any confusion.
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Good God, Doc - is the ghost of Rot-loft still obliquely haunting your inbox? You need to perform a more thorough exorcism.
I guess I'm glad that aerodynamics are not an issue with the Midget - they suck, and everybody knows it . . . even us morons.
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Jon, the Triumph stream liner is shown in recent pictures on my build diary. They have the chute tubes sticking out of the back without any doors and in a location where they will create minimal drag. It looks like a safe arrangement.
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Goodness me Chis
you can't say his name. he will know and it will all start over again
Jon. I have spent some time helping Graeme with cleaning the salt out of those wheel tubs in previous years
I even knocked up an instant wiring loom for him one time at Mangalore
As I remember, the front wheels stopped spinning due to salt build up in the tubs
G
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Aggghhhh, I'm doomed, his name that shan't be spoken is in my thread!!
A sucking midget, lets not go there.
Bo: if I have trouble with my doors I'll extend my chute tubes, I'll try and get relatively reliable doors first.
Grumm: those tubs on Graeme's liner are very small, how big are the tyres on it, looks like a bmx tyre wouldn't have a lot of clearance.
I have quite a bit of clearance even allowing for growth if I get a bit of pace up.
Did you use yellow wire for Graeme's loom or was it before you learnt of the yellow wire's special powers?
Tubs in and welded, no pics.
jon
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Danny De Vito operates in Oz now??? :-D
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Aggghhhh, I'm doomed, his name that shan't be spoken is in my thread!!
I have quite a bit of clearance even allowing for growth if I get a bit of pace up.
Did you use yellow wire for Graeme's loom or was it before you learnt of the yellow wire's special powers?
Tubs in and welded, no pics.
jon
the problem was about rhe hole in the bottom of the tub
it was the size of the tyre that was poking thru it (yes that's right, we spell it tyre in Aus)
so the salt filled up the ledge under the tub
and the wiring was before my yellow phase
i did however have some yellow wire left over to tie up ypur horse collar
do dah, do dah
G
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Danny De Vito operates in Oz now??? :-D
20 ish years ago when I worked for the post office!!!!!
I used to deliver the mail to Danny DiVito at 1243 sydney rd
he lived right next to Jesus Christos at 1245
Who would've thought
G
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Goodness me Chis
you can't say his name. he will know and it will all start over again
"C'mon, Let's go to the stoning".
"How can I possibly make it any worse for myself!"
"Before we start, there aren't any women here, are there?"
Alright, l didn't know it was STILL an issue of this magnitude.
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Look out Jon -they're coming for you: http://www.bikeexif.com/custom-indian-motorcycle?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Bikeexif+%28Bike+EXIF%29
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RGN, you mentioned “ballistics” in your 9 March post. What is it? Chute deployment by an explosive charge?
A thought on putting a chute on an open bike. A sit-on bike has high drag, even if it has a fairing. I think that a chute is not needed, and could be dicey. Flat track and road race riders help slow down by sitting up. You probably know that, if you do not have a windshield, you had better have a good grip on the bars when you do sit up at high speed. I would think that a chute attached to the rider might pull him right off the bike. The SCTA rule book requires a parachute only for streamlliner motorcycle; they have low drag and so would slow down only slowly without one.
Jon, my engine is a 600 cc 4-cyl from a 2008 Yamaha R6. Right, I should surf for info on how to get ECU readouts. Anybody know?
As for trigger angle on the Hummingbird, I too was going to use less than 80 or 50 degrees, maybe as small as 30. I should never be leaned that far over when traveling in a straight line at speed with small cross-wind, and the outriggers will keep me vertical at low speeds.
I like the idea of welding in panels. I did the same thing. It makes the structure a whole lot stiffer and stronger.
Trent – yup, it’s me.
Larry
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Hard to remember everyones nicknames Larry!
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Look out Jon -they're coming for you: http://www.bikeexif.com/custom-indian-motorcycle?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Bikeexif+%28Bike+EXIF%29
Very nice, be good to see it on the salt, would have to run time only or does it fit in someone's rules?
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Jon, my engine is a 600 cc 4-cyl from a 2008 Yamaha R6. Right, I should surf for info on how to get ECU readouts. Anybody know?
Larry
Hi Larry
I'm currently looking at getting an AIM EVO-4 to log all the Gen2 Hayabusa K line data along with some other parameters, it looks like it connects to a 2008 R6 as well.
It's dearer than I planned for logging but I want all my logged data in one logfile rather than a couple of seperate systems.
Do a search on R6 reflash as well, it will let you get a much better tune and get rid of a lot of factory restrictions.
Cheers
Jon
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Look out Jon -they're coming for you: http://www.bikeexif.com/custom-indian-motorcycle?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Bikeexif+%28Bike+EXIF%29
Very nice, be good to see it on the salt, would have to run time only or does it fit in someone's rules?
I made a comment about the fairing on exif and they deleted it straight away. Knobdoodles. Time only. no
the only way it could run within any rules is with a sidecar on it. It's a bit of a shame really. Maybe they should've read someone/any ones rules first. Hang on, I'm starting to sound like a tech inspector now, "have you read the current rules?" My employer says the reason they call them a dustbin fairing is because they sound like a dustbin (trashcan) when they are rolling down the street
G
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Having the run data on the computer rather than a video would certainly be really useful. Jon, thanks for the AIM EVO-4 suggestion, I will look into it.
Another logging option might be a multi-channel digital storage oscilloscope, stand alone or a laptop add-on. I need to look into current offerings. I have one from twenty-five years ago, but the interface is a two-or-three-generations-old desktop plug-in card, dating from a time before laptops or USB connectivity existed. Not realistic to try to resurrect it.
One way to get around some of the factory restrictions for EFI bikes is a Power Commander. The new PC-V and AutoTune units together will suggest new fueling maps for user-selected guidance parameter values. Cost is around $1,000. Pretty useful at Bonneville, where the elevation is about 1,286 m (4,219 ft). By comparison, Lake Gairdner is 34 m (111 ft) ASL. Elevation and summer temperature at Bonneville combine to reduce air density (and thus available power) to about 80% of sea level. There was in 2012 a very good series of articles on EFI fuel map reprogramming in the magazine “Motorcycle Consumer News,” which is a great magazine, a bit expensive ($41/yr in US) because it has no advertising. The September 2012 issue described the PC-V and AutoTune.
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Larry
The EVO-4 isn't a cheep unit, more than I initially was looking at spending for logging but I'm pretty keen to have all my data in one logfile.
Being able to work with the data afterwards in a logical and relatively easy manner is just as important as capturing it IMHO. No use having a heap of data that is hard to work through.
Check out "re flashing" I think you'll be please rly surprised compared to the Power Commander in function and price.
Justin (the guy I got my flashing/logging unit from) is apparently working on non Suzuki bikes, may be worth an email.
Woolich Racing.
jon
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Some of the newer bikes are using secondary throttle plate control to pull back throttle opening in the top end of the rpm range
flashing can let you chang these settings among other things, Yamahas are one doing this
Flash tune in CA have flash kits for Yamahas out now, many other companys will flash your computer for you with a generic tune and reset various features to order
Woolich has a wide range of Suzukis , i think the Kawi zx10 and currently working on a large list of other bikes
capabilitys of getting into the original ecu and making changes there make the pc thing seem rather basic , but they still can have a place for fine tuning and are often used after a flash has reset basic parameters
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Maj, thanks, I will take a look.
-
Eventually got back to doing some actual work on my bike.
Got the footwells tacked up today:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/C7604187-C21A-44FE-AB69-9A18BDA723E9-1177-000001E712ABD93E_zpsc9dce55c.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/1E7AE45F-3EF6-4F58-A25D-DF7A7F8480A0-1177-000001E71B349CDD_zpse8d2dae3.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/87791160-8AA4-4F96-98B7-A0AD803D0AA2-1177-000001E722D41DD3_zpsab329c10.jpg)
Cheers
jon
-
Think the body is going to behave itself eventually going by Woody's latest CFD analysis.
He is doing a 2 degree yaw run and straight run to get some final numbers.
Ended up looking like this: (6 degree yaw run)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/DFAFC177-865B-4F2E-83E3-D67CA262C0C0-1177-000001EC21DE8416_zps750c8390.jpg)
I'd like to thank Woody for his help and patience with my project.
Going to catch up with the guy who is going to CNC my body plug from polystyrene as soon as I have the final CFD runs.
I could spend weeks trying to replicate my design or pick up something that is exactly as designed and symetrical.
Cheers
jon
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The motor on my little lathe died, hard to get good stuff these days.
I bought it when my son was 7, he's 25 now, it was used daily for a couple years doing starters, alternators, brake discs etc in a wrecking yard.
Think it's only capacitors, it's slowing up progress on the underdrive though.
Stripped down a loom for the motor, have some bits and pieces coming to fire it up soon, then into the frame.
Thanks for your help Rex.
Going to cut the rear suspension out to try and get some of the room I lost by fitting the underdrive, hopefully I can get the swingarm angle better with the underdrive.
I could just flip the back axle but that would be too easy.
Cheers
jon
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Most of the data logging gear turned up:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/633B9C3A-DD88-45E7-B7E7-C918CED0931D-1177-000001F440ACCB0C_zps1c2b8fd4.jpg)
Still a bit more on its way, I wasn't going to run a dash but it wasn't much more than the system without.
Cheers
jon
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Good to see you making some noise down there again Mate. It's normal for people to stand back & take a breath after a thrash to the salt.
Did you smooth-sheet the inside of your leg wells so the tubing doesn't get you when you drop it?
Sid.
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when you drop it?
Sid.
Words to live by. not if, when
G
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The riders compartment is sheeted on the inside other than the footwells that are sheeted on the outside for room.
There is a 1 1/4" step where it transitions inside to outside, I'm going to lay up a some SFI padding next to the step to spread out the load some.
Yes it will lay over at some stage, I'd like to try falling over in August.
Hope to finish the sheeting in front of the firewall next weekend.
-
Most of the data logging gear turned up:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/633B9C3A-DD88-45E7-B7E7-C918CED0931D-1177-000001F440ACCB0C_zps1c2b8fd4.jpg)
Still a bit more on its way, I wasn't going to run a dash but it wasn't much more than the system without.
Cheers
jon
How the heck did that get past without someone having a laugh at my expense....... :roll:
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It's because I'm not wiring it
G
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That explains why the thermocouple wires were on back order.
jon
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How the heck did that get past without someone having a laugh at my expense.......
Waiting for one of you down under to own up to it! :-D
At least those yellow ones will not matter if you mix them up.
Come to think of it, it went fast with the yellow wiring. :cheers:
Geo
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Come to think of it, it went fast with the yellow wiring. :cheers:
Geo
He's right!
You owe me a beer Bennett. :mrgreen:
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How the heck did that get past without someone having a laugh at my expense....... :roll:
[/quote]
:-D
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Jon, looking at those panels... It is a good idea to put drain holes in any places where water can collect. This way, it is easy to wash the salt out of the bike with a garden hose.
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Jon, looking at those panels... It is a good idea to put drain holes in any places where water can collect. This way, it is easy to wash the salt out of the bike with a garden hose.
x2 on that one Big Daddy-o......for the first time this year we pulled the wiring out of the car after the last run and packed it away.As usual we'd already packed up the harness and chute. I washed what salt I could off the outside of the car and we trailered it. When I got home I took off the cowl, opened the canopy and flooded it with a hose, easy. Then I put a quart of WD40 in my pump bottle and hosed it all over, it's the cleanest it's ever been.......we now have extra drain holes and instead of having to check everywhere it just drains......makes it much easier.
-
Bo / James
Thanks for that, will definitely do that.
jon
-
Eventually got back to doing some actual work on my bike.
Got the footwells tacked up today:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/C7604187-C21A-44FE-AB69-9A18BDA723E9-1177-000001E712ABD93E_zpsc9dce55c.jpg)
Cheers
jon
Wow Jon, is that small space between the wheel tub and inside of the frame the foot well?
I admit it, all I know about building a LSR vehicle is from what I've read on this website since February. I should keep my mouth shut (or push the keyboard away)...but I can't help myself.
Without seeing the size relationship of your boots in there I am thinking that you're risking bruising on your calves from the edge of the tub during even a good run. Getting tossed around after...well, you know...inertia of your knee/upper leg is enough to break a tibia/fibula.
Jim
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Wow Jon, is that small space between the wheel tub and inside of the frame the foot well?
I admit it, all I know about building a LSR vehicle is from what I've read on this website since February. I should keep my mouth shut (or push the keyboard away)...but I can't help myself.
Without seeing the size relationship of your boots in there I am thinking that you're risking bruising on your calves from the edge of the tub during even a good run. Getting tossed around after...well, you know...inertia of your knee/upper leg is enough to break a tibia/fibula.
Jim
I'm with Jim on that one
Also, I would be concerned about the wheel tub being fixed.
It might be more helpful if you could remove it so that you could clean the salt buildup out of it between runs
G
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Hang on Jon, you've already thought this through...you're going to provide some sort of bulkhead or resting surface on the inside of your knees to keep them from moving laterally, yes?
-
Thanks guys.
There's not a lot of room in there, that's why all my controls are on the bars.(Also because that's where they belong on a bike so i can find them by instinct)
I will be putting SFI padding same as around my helmet area on the outside wall next to my leg because of the step in the panel work.
The inside of my leg is close to a large flat surface being the wheeltub.
The top bar above my shin will have SFI rollbar padding on it.
When I go over I actually see the lack of room an advantage, I'd rather be shaken around in a snug fitting can than a loose fitting one.
As far as a removable wheeltub I'm going to have a car size tyre spinning between my legs, when I weigh up keeping that separated from me and it being easier to clean my sphincter being one of the closest residents voted for a fully welded wheeltub.
Cheers
jon
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As far as a removable wheeltub I'm going to have a car size tyre spinning between my legs, when I way up keeping that separated from me and it being easier to clean my sphincter being one of the closest residents voted for a fully welded wheeltub.
Cheers
jon
The "boys" too young to vote ?..I'd be finding something a little softer than SFI for the shin contact point or are you planning on wearing ya long boots?
-
The SFI padding I have is softer than the cricket bat stuff, it's Orange+Aid.
Boys don't get a vote, they got me in enough trouble.
You said you wouldn't tell about the long boots.....
jon
P.S. You written any good books lately Dr?
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I didn't show him the book
G
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Did I turn you onto the Orange Aid or vice-versa? Guys, this orange Aid makes most SFI "padding" look like the two by four that it is. In fact, did you know a pine 2x4 will pass the same test the SFI does on this so-called padding? 3 years ago I was hanging out with Eric/Nexussian as he was fitting padding on the salt, stuff snapped like peanut brittle when he tried to form it. Not what I would call padding in any way!
-
I remember we were discussing it Tim, I think we both bought it at the same time.
It really is like comparing chalk and cheese comparing other padding to the Orange Aid.
Not finished reading the book Grumm?
jon
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Trent, not Tim :wink:
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Trent, not Tim :wink:
Awkward.... That's actually pretty close for me sorry.
-
That's why we favor "Mate!".
Sid.
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Thanks guys.
There's not a lot of room in there, that's why all my controls are on the bars.(Also because that's where they belong on a bike so i can find them by instinct)...
my motorbike instinct would have me looking for a gear shift above/below the left toe. Just before the sphincter loses control my right toe would be looking for the rear brake no matter that it is actually at the right hand.
Jon, you aren't having a front brake are you? Detrimental on a loose surface in any case.
-
Trent, not Tim :wink:
Jon --- He has been called a lot worse.
Joe
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Trent, not Tim :wink:
Jon --- He has been called a lot worse.
Joe
Thanks Moe!
-
No front brake James, a rear disc connected to a front brake reservoir for my right hand.
Nothing much to look at:
Woody has finished the CFD runs and sent me the final model with the changes that we made to get it to run true.
Have sent P J Bowers (the who are CNCing the body plug for me) some fun vouchers, it should be ready in a couple of weeks.
The body is in four quarters so it fits in his machine and so I can transport it without damaging it.
Also getting another plug of the canopy area 5mm undersize so I can glass it and supply it to the guy who is going to do the PETG canopy for me.
The CFD work was all about trying to get something that had decent yaw stability, the first straight run hinted that the design had a bit of potential in a straight line, the first couple of yaw runs confirmed that it didnt like a crosswind.
We tried a few different things and came up with something that should be reasonably stable.
Ended up with a short tail on the bottom 1/2 of my bike to help provide yaw stability with less roll input.
The tail is about 1/2 the length that we initially tried when checking out options.
Did 11 CFD runs including the initial straight run, then Woody added the wheel fairings trying to mirror my rough sketches and much more detailed mind view and cryptic emails.
We then did six CFD runs at 6 degrees yaw with the bike teaching us (well me anyway) a few things on the way.
Once we were happy at 6 degrees yaw we then did a 2 degree and straight run to close the loop.
I'm no Aerodynamic expert but like everything if you change one thing at a time and retest the answer is in the data, in this case there is the numerical data and the surface and cut pressure and velocity maps as visual data.
I've never set foot in a wind tunnel but I don't think I could have achieved what we did without Woody's help and tools.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/EDCC3C47-F511-45D4-A3FC-5E6407754910-1310-0000016BA5F0B64B_zps59125bec.jpg)
Thanks Woody for your help and patience, I've enjoyed the interaction and am very happy with the outcome.
jon
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Great stuff Jon, looks fantastic!
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Jon, I love it. Wayno
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You have an intelligent approach to difficult and complex problems.
-
Really great to see. A fresh look with a lot of thought and r&d to back the decisions you've made so far. On the way Jon, mate, you're on the way. :cheers:
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Thanks for the kind words guys, getting there slowly....
Not got my rostered week of this month has slowed progress some, I do get it later though when I want it.
Cheers
jon
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Then stuff got real.....
Front left eigth:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/89467717-5BA0-4844-BDC9-D4F4A6032A97-227-0000000C10CB50D9_zps8bee9ee2.jpg)
Front left quarter:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/9F2206C3-2520-4D21-A2AF-A83AEE51E9DB-227-0000000C221DB543_zps00ed134c.jpg)
Steve decided to do it in eigths instead of quarters to make the job easier.
Yes I'm excited. :-D
Yes it's just a block of polystyrene. :-)
My baby is taking shape and I'm 600km away. :cry:
Cheers
jon
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Tick. :cheers:
-
Thanks for the kind words guys, getting there slowly....
Not got my rostered week of this month has slowed progress some, I do get it later though when I want it.
Cheers
jon
Slow, and this build Jon, don't belong in the same sentence. :cheers:
Tiny
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Then stuff got real.....
Yes I'm excited. :-D
Yes it's just a block of polystyrene. :-)
My baby is taking shape and I'm 600km away. :cry:
Cheers
jon
I sent a CAD file to the other side of the world and this appears! :-o
Virtual to reality - how cool is that? :cheers:
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Mate!! Looks like it might be upside down. :roll:
Sid.
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Left hand drive too :-D
-
It's because the chain goes up the wrong side.
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It's because the chain goes up the wrong side.
I thought it wwas always cistern on the left chain on the right,that must be something else :roll:
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It's because the chain goes up the wrong side.
I thought it wwas always cistern on the left chain on the right,that must be something else :roll:
Dunny, some will know some will not.
Sid.
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I'm flushed. :-D
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I think you have to be from down-under to understand this joke?????
-
The great Aussie Thunderbox..... :-P
(http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/55/5546/SW4LG00Z/posters/lewis-rachel-classic-australian-outdoor-toilet-dunny.jpg)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33202652@N04/3912983119/in/gallery-41188800@N00-72157622960192413/
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Mmmmmm........Gotta love that Long Drop..... :-D
-
cuppla redbacks, :-D
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The great Aussie Thunderbox..... :-P
(http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/55/5546/SW4LG00Z/posters/lewis-rachel-classic-australian-outdoor-toilet-dunny.jpg)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33202652@N04/3912983119/in/gallery-41188800@N00-72157622960192413/
I was broken hearted when I snuck down to Lake "G"'s one and only, to find the long had been taken from it, and replaced by an artificially scented plastic box less than 2' from my puckering dot ! :?
Tiny
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Hey Jon, looks like you build diary has turned to $hit Mate!
That'll teach ya to go off flying around the outback & having all that fun. :evil:
Sid.
-
Body plug ended up being 8 pieces rather than 4 because of the curves and tooling, a big thanks to Steve and Joel from the CNC place and to Woody for making it a reality.
Cut the tail extension from 6mm (1/4") marine 5ply, routered a 3mm (1/8") recess in both sides of the mating surfaces of the rear quarters:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/104B93C3-C77E-40F6-BE02-CAADE1CA1DC0-1151-000000FA0C4E57EA_zps555f73c6.jpg)
The tail piece goes into the body 500mm (~20") to make sure it's true with the centreline:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/D1F2F55F-EDAD-4B4A-9A62-2C9A9A268591-1151-000000F9FBEF10E2_zps85518978.jpg)
Got it glued up;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/7DA7D980-E3ED-423A-98B2-40ADE5288782-1151-000000FA19921798_zps72598b1c.jpg)
Bit of light sanding and spot filling tomorrow then first coat of glass hopefully.
Best thing I've bought lately, a set of 5:1 epoxy pumps, same number of pumps from each and the ratio is right, no more measuring cups:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/C29E367E-2B97-4792-AB07-2094C7B41FA0-1151-000000FE9DD3CFE3_zps38caf860.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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Looking good Jon - sure is tiny. You'll have to stop eating...and drinking. Think of how much more $$$ you'll now have to spend on this build.
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Think of how much more $$$ you'll now have to spend on this build.
Thanks James.
I do, and I get a burning sensation in my hip pocket.
I'm lucky that my kids know they aren't going to get anything when I toss in my chips.
The car is a VW Tiguan, one of those soft roader things, it's not as low as it looks.
That is how high it sits, the main body is 100mm off the ground.
jon
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Soft roader?
It got up Mount Ive with Dave driving
G
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Wanting to ring your girlfriend will generally increase the off-roading capability of someone else car.
jon
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Great stuff Jon did yer bits arrive?
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Thanks Oz.
The bits did turn up thanks, apologies for not telling you, thanks for forwarding them.
jon
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Looks great Jon
Cant wait to see it in the flesh!
Cheers Nicholai
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Looks great Jon
Cant wait to see it in the flesh!
Cheers Nicholai
Carefull Jon, I bet that "Kiwi" want's one. :evil:
Sid. :roll:
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You got to be careful of those Kiwis don't you Sid, I think Nicholai is crossing the ditch next weekend, hope to catch up with him while he's over this way. If someone turns up wearing Mint Sauce for aftershave that will be him.
Got the bottom half good enough to glass today so put a layer of bidirectional cloth and epoxy on.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/65C47EAC-A4FB-46D3-9169-B24A34B16FF3-195-0000000D1B20B01D_zpsb0fa8323.jpg)
The Conning Tower, I mean wheel fairing was a little fiddly but came up ok in the end.
Sand the overlap area and a bit of hand finishing and hopefully first coat of glass on the top tomorrow.
Cheers
jon
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Ill be over 6 to 10th of june, about 4 weeks to go! Does mint sause go with kangaroo!
-
:cheers:
-
Bluddy Kiwi's! You know the drill Mate, don't let him see the Keel!!
Sid.
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Excellent Sid!! Ha Ha!
-
A month away, never was good with numbers...
The silver will be tarnished again by the time you get here Nicholai :/ I'm not polishing it again.
I took the keel around to a mate's place Sid, along with the pet sheep, you never know what a fast lamby would get up to.
Kangaroo goes good with everything Nicholai, best with Dark n Stormies though.
Cheers
jon
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First layer finished:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/1560DC73-383F-43C0-839C-2C2F5B71F35D-826-000000CEFEB621BD_zpsfe7dfc6a.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/FCB0E111-32A0-4412-A7D9-EE73A8EF1780-826-000000CF0B474101_zpse9fae97e.jpg)
This layer is 45/45 cloth, next layer will be 90/0 cloth with the joins top and bottom.
Not sure how many layers to do, thinking 4.
-
Jon,
Sorry if I've missed this somewhere in your buld thread, but are you making a mould here, or is this the actual body? are you going to hollow out the foam or dissolve it or something?? :?
That shape is amazing, sort of organic somehow and defininately FAST! :cheers:
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Hi Graham
This is the body, there wasn't going to be a mold as I've been told its nearly always easier to fix a fibreglass part than start again.
That was until Sid said they burnt the body shell off a Liner he worked on, can't fix that....
Now have to work out how to throw a mold off it and think about fire detection.
Thanks, hopefully it goes ok when it's done.
Cheers.
jon
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There was a Don Vesco quote on here about fire. To paraphrase, "When do you know you are on fire? Trust me, you WILL know when you are on fire!"
-
Jon, fiberglass is its own fire detection.... you won't know till you are stopped just like in a metal body... but those little black floaty things in the air will be your major indication
-
There is a coating or similar to impart some fire resistance to fiberglas. I do not know the details. It was discussed with me a whole lotta years ago when I was considering making some fiberglas part.
-
There is a coating or similar to impart some fire resistance to fiberglas. I do not know the details. It was discussed with me a whole lotta years ago when I was considering making some fiberglas part.
It is a paint, Glen knows the name, Team Vesco uses it.
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Hi Graham
With all the hard work it took to build that clean body, it just might be a good idea to pull a mold off of it.
If you plan on running that class for a while, just in case just lay up a new shell in two halfs
Don
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Thanks Guys, I'm making it up a go along so I'm very open to suggestions.
I think I'll;
Glass the whole body as one piece.
Mark it up and cut it into the different sections, slitting saw on the shell and Hotwire the foam.
Lap and tidy up the joints.
Fit it all together and finish the outside.
Take it apart and make molds of the separate body pieces.
Carve most of the foam out, some foam areas will be left in and sandwiched over to strengthen them, e.g. around the tail extension insert.
This is all subject to change as I teach myself stuff, I've watched a few DVDs on building plane bodies and going to try and follow that.
This bodyshape is likely my only go at this, I'd like to give it a good go at making it decent.
jon
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A mold is a good idea for replacement panels for when it falls over
and I would hide the mint sauce. I've heard they are using it as aftershave
G
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A mold is a good idea for replacement panels for when it falls over
and I would hide the mint sauce. I've heard they are using it as aftershave
G
The Sheila's?
Sid.
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There was a Don Vesco quote on here about fire. To paraphrase, "When do you know you are on fire? Trust me, you WILL know when you are on fire!"
In a rear-engine car, you are the last one to know that you're on fire.
Trust me on that one-- my Porsche burned down after pedestrians let me know that the car was on fire. A quick look in the rear view mirror confirmed that diagnosis. :-o
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Thanks Neil
That confirms my suspicions, you soon know when you have no oil pressure too but there are slightly less expensive ways to find out it's low.
I won't have any mirrors to check either, wondering which of the different house fire alarm sensors would be the most suitable to hack in to.
Most of them are 9 volt, wonder how they would like 13 volt?
Cheers
jon
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I won't have any mirrors to check either, wondering which of the different house fire alarm sensors would be the most suitable to hack in to.
Most of them are 9 volt, wonder how they would like 13 volt?
You probably don't want to do that either. The house alarms are way to sensitive to put in an engine compartment where all the interesting fumes and gases would be continually sending false alarms. You'd never make a complete run! :roll: :roll: :evil:
Pete
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Jon, I had the bright idea of trying a remote temp sensor like I have at the house for indoor /outdoor temps. Turns out it had an update rate of something like 4 minutes. :roll: I'm pretty sure I'd know something was wrong by then. :wink: Wayno
-
you could just run a length of wire around the engine bay connected to the earth of a light
If it melts, the light has an earth and the light comes on
G
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I have a much more sensible suggestion. Hang a piece of bread either side of the motor, if you've got a fire in there everyone from Lake Gairdner to Adelaide will be able to smell burning toast. If that doesn't fill you with confidence then collect the trimmings next time you have a haircut and stick hair on the outside of your motor, the smell of burning hair will travel through concrete at a speed that exceeds that of light in a vacuum.
What? I'm just trying to be helpful.... :roll:
-
Stick a capilary gauge in there and get used to whats normal
be similar to the turbine motors fire wire
-
Thanks guys, plenty of good info there.
SFI rated bread is a bit of of my budget.
This does look interesting though, building on Grumm's idea.
http://www.systemsensor.com/pdf/A05-0288.pdf (http://www.systemsensor.com/pdf/A05-0288.pdf)
Cheers
jon
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Jon, I know some cars in the past that had systems where the air presser kept the chute and fire systems from deploying. The air line was then run close to potential fire areas if there was flames it melted the nylon air line releasing the chute and firing the fire system.
-
Thanks Sparky, sounds like a good option to explore.
Did they pin the systems safe at all times when the air could slowly leak down pressure?
Thanks
jon
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I believe Sid (that I stole the smoke detector idea from) ran a detector for a while, I'll hassle him some more.
I may have misunderstood him, it may have been a fire detector (which is a different animal) and I just thought was a kiwi way of saying smoke detector.
Looks like there is two types of Fire detectors; temperature threshold and temperature rise.
Greg's idea of a bourdon tube gauge is good but I don't want to be watching a gauge, a Murphy gauge would be a simple solution, just set the contacts a bit above the temperature that engine compartments runs at.
The FireWire looks good and simple and has the benefit of sensing for the whole length of the cable similar to Sparky's mention of the pressurised Nylon air hose.
Cheers
jon
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Jon;
There is a third type of fire detector- it looks for energy in the IR and UV and senses the flame flicker pattern as well. Walter Kidde Aerospace makes them (maybe others do too) and they are NOT cheap. Luckily I found one on the surplus market a while back and I will install it in my firewall, looking at the lower part of my engine. I've mounted a "FIRE" indicator on the instrument panel already.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Brainstorming this....how about ignition points mounted several places in the engine bay, all wired to the ground wire of a single big warning light. Put a piece of thermo wax under the lift tab on the contactor arm. If any one of them melts the wax, the point closes and the light turns on. You can test the "turn on point" with a heat gun...just adjust the points for more or less tension to have a little selection range. All you have to replace after testing is the wax (or maybe use a soft plastic or soft foam pad for your melt down material.)
Of course, the melt material is flammable but if it burns, then the points have already closed, the light is on, and youve hit the fire bottle. You could monitor a lot of positions for about $20 or so, and it would be easy to check and maintain. If you wanted a little more info, you could wire each point set to individual lights. If only one comes on, and nothing else happens quickly, you can make a judgement call. If they all start turning on, you know how big the problem is. I like that idea best...still cheap and easy, but maybe less likely to mess you up with a false problem.
I am not wild about the idea of automatic cutoff or chute deploy. What if you are using power to straighten out before pulling the chute at the right moment? I pulled the chute on the roadster, once, when it was too sideways (back in the days when you could sneak up to ElMirage in the middle of the week to test the car). I would sure never want to have that choice made for me, now that I know what a dumb move that was! The other side of the snap back is worse than the problem you started with, is the way I feel about it....cant say with authority...only tried it once and wouldnt again.
JimL
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Sounds good Jim
I'm definitely with you on the idea of the system warning of potential fire then I manually triggering the fire system rather than giving the system control.
I think I've tracked down some 180C (350F) sense wire, won't know for sure for a couple weeks.
If I get it the plan is;
Run power to a big red light
Run the other terminal from the big red light to one wire of sense wire.
Hook the other sense wire to earth at the same end as the light.
Run the sense wire through the engine compartment picking up the likely places a fire would start.
Run the end of the sense wire back to the riders compartment and terminate both wires to a momentary contact switch.
Add to the daily check sheet "Test fire sense system", when the momentary switch is closed the big red light will light up, if not there is an open circuit somewhere.
This won't stop me catching fire but hopefully can alert me that $hit is happening and reduce the damage.
If I can activate the fire system before it burns a hole through the bodywork I am carrying enough foam to completely fill the airspace in the body at least 1.5 times, including the riders compartment so if the fire isn't in there it's going to be at least 2 times the engine compartment.
Thanks everyone for your help again.
jon
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Looks like I need to help you guys before you go spending swillions of $'s on stuff.
What I used on Betsy was house fire detectors wired to a light (not smoke detectors). The whole system cost about $15 back then.
They have a snap disc switch in them, also known as POF (not "poof" :-D) proof-of-flame switch. They are available in different temperatures & normally open or closed.
Here's a Google link.
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_rn=12&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=uNsIrkOFg5Zb9KkzK70xIQ&suggest=p&cp=10&gs_id=12&xhr=t&q=snap+disc+thermostat&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=snap+disc+&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46340616,d.cGE&fp=b3bda988c724673&biw=1264&bih=621
Let me tell you the story behind this.
Back in 90 (I think) Al was making a run, Betsy ran great to about 350-ish & then started dropping cylinders. It was dropping cylinders because the fire was burning up the mag caps & plug wires. Later when we looked into it, it was obvious we had a loose fitting on the high-speed return line so it didn't affect performance but sprayed the mags with fuel. It did a lot of damage.
After that mess I decided to put this cheap warning system in. Al was skeptical towards the idea & figured the engine temp would set it off.
The next meet, first pass, the light comes on, Betsy's running great, Al figures the thing is a $15 piece of junk & completes the shake-down run with a typical 370.
He get's out at the other end to find he had a small fire around the blower from a leak at the barrel valve.
That $15 worth of stuff is still in there today as Betsy sit's in a museum wishing Al & the guys would come back. :cry:
Sid.
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Thanks Sid
I misunderstood "Fire detectors" as a Kiwi interpretation of "Smoke detectors" and lead everyone up the garden path sorry.
Sweet as Bro.
jon
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The two Vesco liners have the same system that Kiwi stated, I believe The Nish liner and others use it as well.
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Thanks Sid
I misunderstood "Fire detectors" as a Kiwi interpretation of "Smoke detectors" and lead everyone up the garden path sorry.
Sweet as Bro.
jon
It'd be ok if you didn't try n cheap-shot me while I'm helping you out!
Stopped by the P/O today & picked up the DVD's, thanks Mate.
Sid.
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Thanks Sid
I misunderstood "Fire detectors" as a Kiwi interpretation of "Smoke detectors" and lead everyone up the garden path sorry.
Sweet as Bro.
jon
It'd be ok if you didn't try n cheap-shot me while I'm helping you out!
Stopped by the P/O today & picked up the DVD's, thanks Mate.
Sid.
Thanks Sid, it was my mistake of not reading the email properly.
It's in the "Oz Un Zid rools uf ingagmint" that we must cheap-shot each other at every opportunity.
Cheers
Jon
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The fire detector idea is a good one -- another good one from this diary. Thanks Sid for sharing the info.
Another idea to supplement -- not replace -- the fire detector, one that I got from Tom Burkland, is to put one or more small thick polycarbonate windows in the firewall. A fire should be visible reflected in gauge faces, provided line of sight can be arranged.
Thanks also to y'all for the heads up on the Orange Aid material. It sounds like what I need.
Jon, your body –your streamliner body, I mean -- is beautiful. There is one other shape I like better, but it is not good for a streamliner. I notice that you do not have a fairing on the front wheel. What is your thinking on that?
Larry
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A thought occurred to me (two in one day – wow! ) regarding composite construction you were discussing. According to books on the subject, composite aircraft are built using about 12 mm thick polystyrene foam with two layers of fiberglass in epoxy matrix on both the inside and outside surfaces. Actually, carbon fiber is generally used instead of fiberglass; it is lighter and stiffer but not significantly stronger, and blocks electromagnetic waves, and is a lot more expensive. Epoxy isstronger than polyester. No fancy thickness gauge is needed when sanding the inside surface of the foam – a small nail or screwdriver pierced through the foam to the fiberglass on the outside works. Foam divots can be patched using a mixture of epoxy and microspheres. I wonder how much the panel will warp due to stresses in the outer ‘glass layer as the foam is sanded away. Anybody out there know?
I have seen claims that a 12 mm (1/2 inch) thickness of foam with two layers of fiberglass in epoxy (each less than 1 mm thick) on each side is as strong and as stiff as a 7 mm (1/4 inch) thick aluminum plate. I am not sure I believe that, but it is surely strong, and very much lighter by a factor of several hundred.
Larry
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First, you can't use Polyester with Polystyrene. The resin disolves the styrene. From my experience the Epoxy/Polystyrene/glass works well and if done right very little sanding is required. Epoxy and chopped strand mat are a bad match so don't even go there. Carbon is stronger than glass of the same thickness definitely. If you want to remove the foam be sure to have enough material on the outside layer. This is where the carbon comes in, no warping. You don't even need to sand the foam away. Use Acetone on the foam and it's gone. My suggestion would be to put a layer of peel ply down on the foam before laying up the glass. That way, when you remove the poly foam all you have to do is peel the ply away and you're left with a nice even surface requiring no finishing. Whatever glass you use it better be the best quality you can get and an aero spec twill weave material will give best results. For the foam core example you described, a 163gr/m2 fabric on a 3 layer layup would be best with the correct resin system. Some Epoxies are way stiffer than others but probably more costly as well. Get the correct hardener for the application as far as pot life goes. Faster for cold weather and slower for warmer. Hope this helps and the panel is as stiff as 7mm Ally but not quite as strong in shear.
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Sounds like good info, Tauruck. I detect that you have experience – mine is limited and underfed, just comes from books. Speaking of books, there is a list below, copied from the references page of my website. Far and away the best of the lot IMHO is the one by Zeke Smith. It covers issues Tauruck mentioned, things like material compatibility and peel ply and types of cloth and matrix, plus detailed practical advice on how to use them.
Lots of composites info is on the Aircraft Spruce website at URL www.aircraftspruce.com.
Hollmann, Martin, Composite Aircraft Design, Aircraft Designs, 2003.
Hollmann, Martin, How to Build Composite Aircraft, Aircraft Designs, 1993.
Loken, Hal and Hollmann, Martin, Designing with Core, Aircraft Designs, 2003.
McBeaath, Simon, Competition Car Composites: A Practical Handbook, Haynes Publishing, 2000.
Miller, Thomas, A Practical Application of Lessons Learned Studying and Working with High Performance Composites, CreateSpace, 2009.
Smith, Zeke, Advanced Composite Techniques: Lightweight Moldless Techniques for the Aircraft Homebuilder, Aeronaut Press, 2005.
Finch, Richard, Welder’s Handbook, HP Books, 2007.
Sacks, Raymond and Bohnart, Edward, Welding Principles and Practice, McGraw-Hilo, Third Edition, 2005.
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The fire detector idea is a good one -- another good one from this diary. Thanks Sid for sharing the info.
Another idea to supplement -- not replace -- the fire detector, one that I got from Tom Burkland, is to put one or more small thick polycarbonate windows in the firewall. A fire should be visible reflected in gauge faces, provided line of sight can be arranged.
Thanks also to y'all for the heads up on the Orange Aid material. It sounds like what I need.
Jon, your body –your streamliner body, I mean -- is beautiful. There is one other shape I like better, but it is not good for a streamliner. I notice that you do not have a fairing on the front wheel. What is your thinking on that?
Larry
According to the rule book a firewall must be metal. I haven't heard of an exception for a polycarbonate windows in a firewall. :?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Thanks Guys.
The fire detection is like a lot of things on this build, me using good ideas from someone else, thanks Sid.
Thanks Larry, I get that a lot :), oh my bike :(, I'm pretty happy with the shape.
Not sure if your near the coast but i recon that a front wheel fairing is the same as having a fin on the front of your surfboard. Everything's cool while your straight, as soon as it gets some yaw it wants to yaw more, we (Woody and I) kicked a few non winners to try and get it to run straight before it came off.
Thanks for the composite info Mike, I'm using Marine Epoxy and reasonably heavy non woven Bi-direction (yes directional Giggles) cloth, I can't remember if its 400gsm or 600gsm, I can weigh a square metre if your interested.
I'll probably mess around and sandwich foam between the barwork to give the body a bit more anti flex.
I have heard from someone else about a windowed firewall, can't remember who.
I couldn't see through a window in my firewall anyway, can hardly see the firewall when I'm in the bike and the fuel tank will pretty much cover the backside of it. Fuel tank is there to give it maximum crash protection and to be close to the COG so it doesn't change my balance much during a run.
Cheers
jon
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Another small piece of the puzzle.
A 120V 580psi 3way solenoid married with a 12v coil, I need around 450psi to hold the underdrive in low, low voltage high pressure pneumatic solenoids are a bit spendy.
Thanks to the interweb, a couple different ebay clearing house and Postman Rex this should do the job hopefully.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/69167ECF-A57A-447C-BFCF-A030080CABA0-111-00000002C8BCBAC3_zpse0a73b8a.jpg)
It looks like a normal on off solenoid but exhausts through the coil shaft when de-energised to let the springs engage direct.
Thanks Rex, I think the first few rounds are on me.
Cheers
jon
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Not sure if your near the coast but i recon that a front wheel fairing is the same as having a fin on the front of your surfboard. Everything's cool while your straight, as soon as it gets some yaw it wants to yaw more, we (Woody and I) kicked a few non winners to try and get it to run straight before it came off.
Cheers
jon
Jon, that makes sense. I think it is essentially the same problem as having a fin on the front half of the body. In my mind safety must trump both performance and cost when feasible.
I nevertheless wonder about the drag penalty of the partially exposed front wheel. Data I have found (books by Hoerner, Hucho, Katz, Barnard, Tamai, etc.) seem to indicate that drag increases by 20 to 100 percent when a body in brought into close proximity to the ground and rotating wheels are added – but most data are for 4-wheel vehicles that are not fully streamlined. The front wheel fairings recommended in The Leading Edge seem to me to incur the yaw moment problem.
Do you have any information on the drag increment due to the partially-exposed rotating front wheel of a streamlined motorcycle?
Do you know of a way to reduce rotating front wheel drag without incurring the yaw moment problem? Perhaps some sort of shield or flow deflector?
On a closely related subject, do you have any info on the drag coefficient of your {streamliner} body? Hopefully including the effects of ground proximity and rotating wheels, which are always difficult to determine accurately from either the wind tunnel or CFD modeling. It looks to me to be very slippery, maybe drag coefficient on the order of 0.12 (based on frontal area). I am under the impression that this is a difficult target to achieve for a ground vehicle. I hope to do as well, but 0.15 is probably a more reasonable expectation.
Too many deep questions in one post. Sorry. But the more we know, the safer we can be.
Larry
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Hi Larry
It's exactly the same as having a fin on the front half of the body, sticking down to the ground just makes it more effective because its harder for the air to try and spill.
I do have some Cd numbers, the work that Woody and I did was focused on yaw stability rather than drag minimisation. The Cd numbers aren't too bad, shan't be throwing them up anytime soon.
Happy to share any opinions related to safety though.
The straight running drag penalty for the front wheel fairing removal was a bit, I may have been able to get away with it in ideal conditions but chose not to, most of the work was done at 6 degrees yaw which is quite an angle.
Lengthening the tail wasn't an option for me because of weird theories I have about rear wheel traction, if you have enough tail and your COG is further forward than mine a front wheel fairing may work on your bike.
I am a bit hardheaded about doing things myself but I believe some of the best money I have spent on my bike is getting the CFD yaw studies done.
Sorry if I sound evasive.
jon
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Larry, it's all about balancing the aerodynamic forces for a given shape under specific operating conditions. Lots of rules of thumb and generalities that may or may not apply to your application. The drag coefficient is not dependent on frontal area. It is used to compare different shapes in conjunction with the frontal area - Cd * A. An egg and a sugar cube have the same CdA so you can put a bigger passenger & engine in an egg and go faster than a sugar cube. But if you round the corners of the sugar cube just a little bit and put a tail on it the drag goes way down so the real world solution is somewhere between the extremes. It's all just a packaging and traction problem in the end! :cheers:
For a single track motorcycle "fuselage" brought next to the ground the drag penalty is surprisingly small. And for the drag you get there is an even bigger increase in down force. Down force is not free but pretty cheap in this case! (L/D) When you stick the wheels in it (spinning or not) the drag and down forces change again. When you fair the wheels drag goes down but the yaw responses change negatively! :-(
My first impression of Jon's concept was that it was too short but Jon insisted on NO long tail. We went through several iterations and lots of digital discourse to arrive at the current solution which is a good set of engineered compromises. The interactions are just too complex - to be safe you have to test - not guess! :cheers:
BTW: I can testify to Jon's anality since I have a PhD in anality, too! :-D
OK, Jon now get this sugar cube running! :cheers:
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Had a visit from Nicholai (Fastlami) and a few of his mates, we also caught up with Ross and checked out the progress on his triple engine liner.
Was a good time and I look forward to seeing Nicholai's build, he has the skills to do the job looking at some of his and his friends current and previous projects.
Got a bit of time to do some work in my bike, been a little distracted lately.
Modified a shift drum to put Neutral on bottom so I can get an airshift to work reliably.
Trying to get Neutral which is a 1/2 shift between 1st and 2nd gears isn't going to happen with an airshift.
The standard drum has 5 shifts of 60 degrees each which made the job a fair bit easier. 2 shift-fork slots just needed extending by 1/2 a shift (30 degrees), the 3rd slot needed to ramp from 1st back to Neutral in the same distance.
The shift fork travels 6mm to go from Neutral to a gear, 6mm in 30 degrees = 1mm in 5 degrees so a bit of fiddling around then a bit of hand finishing with a die grinder came up ok.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/12152FDC-B88E-440D-AFC6-6D4794AA2832-2059-0000022AB079316C_zpsab152dac.jpg)
Then moved the shift star locating dowel by 1 full shift (60 degrees);
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/D3489ED8-061B-44C7-B8C0-F37B01FED3EB-2059-0000022ADA37AA0B_zps5f89c9ab.jpg)
Shift star bolted back on and fingers crossed and we have an Underhouse Engineering Neutral on bottom shift drum for a Hayabusa, you can see the 1/2 shift detent at the top of the star.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/2776DAD0-0E65-472E-A5ED-24423B88FBA7-2059-0000022AE8667267_zps3d8c1717.jpg)
Have a wide ratio gearset dummied up in, will have a go at undercutting it and then test the shift drum.
Some tool steel shiftrods going in to help live with the shock of an airshift and that's all the mods the motor will get before the first year, I wouldn't have opened it at all if it wasn't for wanting Neutral in bottom.
Cheers
jon
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:cheers:
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Got the trans dummied together today, shifts like a standard trans :).
It should; the only shift that is not original is from Neutral to first.
Did one for 750 motor today, drilled one of the holes to reclock the shift star then convinced myself I'd gone the wrong way so drilled two in the opposite direction.
Sure enough; put it together and I'd gone the wrong way..... :/
Lightening holes are good aren't they?
Going to have a crack at undercutting my trans dogs tomorrow.
Cheers
jon
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Did one for 750 motor today,
jon
:-D :cheers:
If you want a practice on any gears the 750 box is not considered fully functional , second was noisy , cut it to death if you want
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Got the trans dummied together today, shifts like a standard trans :).
It should; the only shift that is not original is from Neutral to first.
Did one for 750 motor today, drilled one of the holes to reclock the shift star then convinced myself I'd gone the wrong way so drilled two in the opposite direction.
Sure enough; put it together and I'd gone the wrong way..... :/
Lightening holes are good aren't they?
Going to have a crack at undercutting my trans dogs tomorrow.
Cheers
jon
Hi
As many pics as you can during the undercutting please.
I have always wanted to try it myself.
Thanks
Richard
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Jon, pay attention to making sure that all of the under cut dogs are in contact with each other and all of them are carrying the load. It is hard to do this. Lots of fiddling to get it right.
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Thanks guys
The undercutting is going to wait a while.
I'm running the motor standard until I settle my bike down and I learn to ride to ride it.
To do it properly I need to get a 5 degree reverse taper endmill, my little mill has a tilting head but the heal of the cutter would prevent me getting the results I want.
Rather than have the motor sit around open while I order a cutter I closed it up.
When I start chasing a bit more power the motor will be coming apart for other work as well, this is likely to be a couple years away.
With the right cutter and using a dividing head I should be able to get a reasonable job I think.
Closed the motor up and did a couple non Streamliner related jobs today.
Cheers
Jon
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Got a rostered week off and the forecast looks good so fibreglassing the body-shell is the plan.
Spent most of the afternoon with a sander learning how poorly I did the first layer of fibreglass, most of it is ok but I didn't get all the bubbles out in a few areas :(
Like anything new its a learning curve, no great loss other than a bit of time and a heap of sanding.
I think I over squeegeed a bit too as some areas are a bit short of resin in the top of the cloth, it's all wet but its got dips between the threads in the cloth.
The good news is it won't be hard to make the next layer better :)
Some more parts of the pneumatic system turned up, manifold with banked solenoids:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/A445E6DC-3310-42EA-A311-17B1EA3E8781-6111-00000672189964A4_zpse27f7861.jpg)
Manifold has more stations than I need but having spare spots could be handy over time, just need to make some blanking plates.
The wiring caps have LEDs in them and the solenoids have manual buttons on them to make troubleshooting easier.
Cheers
jon
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The Busa motor fits;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/32FA952F-DBFC-4A0E-9414-100A8EAB71C9-2680-000003289839F6CD_zps572e2494.jpg)
It's snug, if it wasn't the bike would be too big. :)
Cottam Engineering are starting on machining works on Greg's and my Underdrive units.
I won't mount the motor until the Underdrive unit is in, will probably need to redo the rear suspension to gain some room back.
Cheers
jon
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Jon, it might be best to buy some under cut gears. It is a lot of work to cut them. It is important to have radiused corners at the base of the dogs to reduce the tendency to crack there. In addition, the hardening is not all that deep on gears and it is easy to get under the hardening when they are undercut. I certainly would buy some professionally made racing gears if they are available.
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Thanks Bo
No off the shelf undercut dog gears for the gearset I'm running. Greg (Maj) happened across a gearset that gives me a fair bit bigger step from 1st to 2nd (bigger than the aftermarket 1st gears you can buy) and a slightly bigger 5th to 6th than standard.
It gives me about the same 1st to 6th split as the aftermarket gears you can get but a big split low and smaller splits up high is what I think I need.
I'm trying to track down a endmill with a 5 degree reverse taper (bigger on the end) so that I can get the undercut I want without digging the heel of the tool into the gear.
Fairly easy then to grind the tip of the endmill to a very small radius.
The 3 jaw i have on my little dividing head will grab the gears I have and let me get the offset and indexing right.
With the 5 degree taper in the endmill I can keep the mill head vertical and set up for different height gears without the offset from centreline changing.
I could probably pay someone to do a gearset cheaper than buying the cutter and the time spent getting my head around doing the first gearset (after playing with some junked gears i have) but I if I get it together ok I can then do others.
jon
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A couple little machining jobs today, it is a bit damp to be fibreglassing, that happens outside.
Dummied up the turbo and intercooler core so I can sketch up a plenum.
One of the machining jobs needed a bit of alloy and the that I buy alloy off told me today he's bought a waterjet and can work with DXFs.
The plan was for a highmount turbo but the bike told me today that low mount would give me more useable room.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/C78E015E-A30C-420F-AEFC-798A2528D64E-4810-0000055C25895D67_zps4b7a520b.jpg)
Pushing the motor forward 8" has tightened things up a little.
The turbo and cooler will sit in storage for a few years but I want to mount them and then keep building around them.
Cheers
jon
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Lookn good Jon, man that turbo's a monster :evil:
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Thanks Nicholai
It just looks big because its in a small space.
Got the intercooler/plenum sketched up:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/A5ED1F1F-B399-40BF-8BF5-264B58E72C57-5081-0000058A2F0388E7_zps475d822d.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/7EEBA3AB-41D6-4A8F-B7CA-B61910B35DA2-5081-0000058A4986A6F7_zpsd7d1dade.jpg)
The blue bit is the core, the angle from the core back to the throttle body is more acute than I would like but it seems normal for most Busa setups in bikes.
Just got to work out how to cut it into sheetmetal sections.
Cheers
jon
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:-o :cheers:
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You certainly have a way with words Sparky. :)
It's not that bad is it?
jon
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just amazed at what various builders are willing to study, attempt, learn and DO---I am in AWE Sir!! :cheers: :cheers:
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Jon, I spent the morning reading your build thread- :cheers: great work, and a lot of great tech info!
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Thanks Guys.
Your builds are both on my daily read list, I'm learning a lot from both of you and a many others from this site, both from the help I'm given so readily and from what people post on their builds or in response to there's questions.
Some seriously talented people on this site.
Cheers
jon
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Redoing a few things to get some room back from the underdrive.
Sketched up a new swingarm in Solidworks.
My tyre is 23" so started with a 27" tyre (2" of growth on the radius) and allowed 1" of clearance there with the chain adjusters right forward.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/962AEC8B-8A36-4726-B4A9-91B42D2B6BD6-1228-000000F4031B94FC_zpsc981f36f.jpg)
I'll fab it up from 5mm (0.2"), it'll be a little heavy but shouldn't flex.
Simpler than trying to go 4 link, there's no crossbar between the tyre and the underdrive unit.
Motor is now only 4" further forward rather than the 8" the underdrive takes up.
Pivots are concentric with the output shaft to help keep the chain tension even.
Cheers
jon
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You live near any pond or lake? The news says they caught a 19-foot long python in a shop down there and turned it loose in "a nearby wetland." Look inside your streamliner real good before you climb in.
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He has more chance of his son trying to sneak into the liner then a python.... :evil:
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He has more chance of his son trying to sneak into the liner then a python.... :evil:
Like you would fit
G
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He has more chance of his son trying to sneak into the liner then a python.... :evil:
Like you would fit
G
Patience, perseverance and a little bit of margarine...I recon i could fit.
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No ponds around my place Bo, it was a decent size python for around this area though.
I think he's dreaming Grumm.....
After a bit of to-ing and fro-ng on the underdrive units I think we're going with B&J Pro Sportsmans.
By going with pre-made units we get more ratio choices and more chance of getting a spare if things break.
The Pro Sportsmans are rated at 1500hp and lets Greg go to one end of the ratios at 1.22:1 reduction and me to the other at 1.566:1.
The Pro Sportsman needs about 250psi to select and hold direct, a loss of pressure has the unit select low but it freewheels on over-run so isn't going to lock the back wheel (hopefully).
The input and output shafts are both 16 spline 1-3/8", will get some wide slide on splined collars and weld them into sprockets, lateral location will just be spacers between the collar and shaft shoulder on the inboard side and collar and support bearing on the outboard side.
With the swingarm going out to the frame and input and output shafts cut level with the end of the outboard bearing there should be just enough room to remove the outboard bearing support plate and change sprockets.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/2SpeedandSwingarm_zpse3df1861.jpg?t=1373759891)
Sketched up the CO2 system;
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/StreamlinerBikeCO2system_zps9c29d238.jpg?t=1373759878)
jon
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Swingarm turned out like the sketches:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/1CFAB887-159E-412F-A195-6170AF23FCE4-1378-000001875CA6B226_zps7582f81b.jpg)
First time I've used Waterjet cut parts, very nice to work with.
Due to a bit of scope creep I'm making some new front suspension components and going to stretch the main frame 500mm (~18"), yes you all told me :-o.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/C89024B1-CE7C-4E55-A9D8-EE41FCBFB272-1378-0000018768D35454_zps395b2b4c.jpg)
Upright and lower control arm.
B&Js are ordered, hopefully getting shipped in a couple of weeks.
Side plates for outboard bearings on B&Js (Greg's and mine) are getting Waterjet cut and will need a minimal machining to counterbore bolt heads, helicoil threads and machine bearing recesses.
jon
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He has more chance of his son trying to sneak into the liner then a python.... :evil:
Like you would fit
G
Patience, perseverance and a little bit of margarine...I recon i could fit.
lose 20 kgs and then maybe
G
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Two out of three ain't bad, perseverance he has, margarine he can buy....
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Fuel and water tanks are also getting Wayerjet cut:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/9D145716-06A5-43A2-9027-1C915462B54A-1378-00000195AEB78CE6_zps5b1ef59b.jpg)
30L (8 US gallons, whats this wet and dry gallon thing) in the front compartment.
35L (9.25 US gallons) of ice water in the back.
Bilge pump in the ice water tank on the left hand side for the intercooler.
Engine water heat exchanger (oil cooler core) is behind the green panel on the right rear.
Water from the intercooler return dumps on top of the engine heat exchanger to get good flow around it and heat transfer.
Two holes in the top for putting ice in as the 11lb fire extinguisher bottle tube is an effective sideways baffle.
This bolts straight to the back of my rollcage and down onto the side rails.
Mainly to give it the maximum crash protection.
I know this will make it harder to cut the top off but that's secondary to having me and the fuel tank both still in one piece if when I go a$$-up,
All the hoses etc come out the top so it can all come out easily from the top to get deeper into the bike.
A removable diagonal x brace goes the full length of the engine compartment.
jon
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Really nice Jon, was just wondering the other day how your going.
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Jon, are you sure 18" is enough? 24 might be better... 30 might be best.... it is easier to haul a little extra air inside than not have room for something that might make it faster, safer or a little more comfortable for that 90 seconds of fun.
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Jon, your work is really impressive!
How much does that swing arm weigh? For sure it is strong but it looks heavy...at speed, how much do you think the inertia of it will reduce the amount of time the tyre is actually in contact with the salt? Is alloy an option rather than steel?
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The critical weight issue is the weight of the swing arm in comparison to the unsprung weight it supports. A heavier and well triangulated steel swing arm is not a big issue if it is supporting an elephantine mass.
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Good work Kiddo,
love the renders, love the swingarm and the tank idea sounds all v good, tough work doin all that with hand tools or do you have electricity in Queensland now?
Jon, are you sure 18" is enough? 24 might be better... 30 might be best.... it is easier to haul a little extra air inside than not have room for something that might make it faster, safer or a little more comfortable for that 90 seconds of fun.
Careful there Bob you'll get a lecture on wetted area if you're not careful, he's already added length without having too much of a sook about it, in fact he's dealt very well with the whole "joining the special construction club" thing overall, try not to give him the willies.
:roll:
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Thanks Guys
Stainless; Goggles is wrong, there was a lot of sooking before i admitted to needing a bit more room, I "need" about 6" for the scope creep the other foot is me already admitting defeat.
Contrary to popular opinion I think short is good for drag, more anoyed about having a parallel section :cry:, lack of planning will do that to you.
Thanks Jim, CAD and Waterjet (with crappy photography skills) can make anyone look good, first time I've used it and seriosly happy with the outcome, had to touch up two pieces with a flap wheel to get the fit i wanted, that was a reflection on my drawing abilities rather than the waterjet operator.
Solidworks told me it would be 12kg with a bias of the weight towards the pivot end, i think its a fair bit lighter than that though, I'll weigh it tonight.
I'm more comfortable working with steel, it has a more predicable failure IMHO opinion too, if the salt Gremlins are kind and I ever get up to a decent pace i think that a lot of the suspension is in the tyre at speed.
Bo; I agree completely, I'm going to have a fair bit of unsprung weight anyway, talking with Greg (Maj on here) and he pointed out that i need to take brakes a bit more seriously, now looks like my rotor will weigh about 9kg.
Thanks Pops; I think we got electrickery thing happening up here now, I looked out the front of my place last night and the telephone ploes looked like they were glowing on top, donchuwuryabout that.
Went down to NSW to catch up with my brother recently and they have phones down there that arent plugged into the wall.
You been reading The Leading Edge again Goggles?
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Just don't put the gearshift too far away
G
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Just don't put the gearshift too far away
G
You taking it for a run Grumm? Cool.
We're about the same height (I think) main shift is on the left thumb, underdrive to direct will probably be on the right.
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Really nice Jon, was just wondering the other day how your going.
Thanks Nicholai
How is the collecting and test rig coming along?
jon
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Jon, I would not worry too much about unsprung weight for a salt vehicle. My scooter had a about a 160 lb swing arm after I added 68 lbs of lead to the inside and 60 lbs on the outside. The tire stayed on the ground a lot better than it did with a 35 lb arm. You are not building a canyon carving street bike, you are building a very fast race bike for a relatively flat surface. Suspension reaction time can't possibly keep up after you exceed 150 or so. That inertia thing works both ways, it takes a lot more bump to push a heavy arm than a light one. You are going to have heavy springs and highly damped shocks behind all that weight... you don't want a compliant dirt bike suspension.
The Lakester has a lot of parallel surface.... seems to go OK... go ahead and give it the extra 6 now, it will be easier than in 6 more months. :roll:
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Thanks Stainless, not too concerned with unsprung weight, especialy after looking at successful sit on bikes, the sprung/unsprung ratio is pretty wild.
I cant put the extra 6" in now, i would be taking away the opportunity ofr you to say I told you so, (again) in 6 months time :cheers:
I think most peoples first post on my build diary was "add 2 metres", I'm a slow learner :)
jon
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Enough weight that the tire deflects rather than the suspension having to move should do it :wink:
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Suspension reaction time can't possibly keep up after you exceed 150 or so.
I've always had an intuitive feeling that I could never find enough hard evidence to back up so I've never jumped up and down much about this but it was the general idea that left us will no suspension........
Thanks Stainless, not too concerned with unsprung weight, especialy after looking at successful sit on bikes, the sprung/unsprung ratio is pretty wild.
I cant put the extra 6" in now, i would be taking away the opportunity ofr you to say I told you so, (again) in 6 months time :cheers:
I think most peoples first post on my build diary was "add 2 metres", I'm a slow learner :)
jon
that there is a successful application to the "Special Construction Club"Just don't put the gearshift too far away
G
it was a morning sickness drug... :roll: :roll:
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Just don't put the gearshift too far away
G
You taking it for a run Grumm? Cool.
We're about the same height (I think) main shift is on the left thumb, underdrive to direct will probably be on the right.
Dave would have a better chance
G
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Enough weight that the tire deflects rather than the suspension having to move should do it :wink:
Yeh yeh; you have all the local tyre and battery shops on speed dial in case you need a quick fix.
Believe you and Stainless are right (both have runs on the board) at speed suspension is nearly all tyre flex.
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Just don't put the gearshift too far away
G
You taking it for a run Grumm? Cool.
We're about the same height (I think) main shift is on the left thumb, underdrive to direct will probably be on the right.
Dave would have a better chance
G
Only one person going to have the joys of sliding down the salt wondering what happened in this ;)
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Just don't put the gearshift too far away
G
You taking it for a run Grumm? Cool.
We're about the same height (I think) main shift is on the left thumb, underdrive to direct will probably be on the right.
Dave would have a better chance
G
Only one person going to have the joys of sliding down the salt wondering what happened in this ;)
:evil:
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Getting ready to cut it in 1/2.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/F55F2A64-B8D9-442D-A61E-2FF6E7CFF07C-183-00000005F8EF64B3_zps6cda4b14.jpg)
Squaring it up on the bench with cheapie laser crosshairs.
Going to tack a foot to the back of the main rollcage hoop and screw it to the bench.
I'll tack a light RHS frame to about the tubes in the engine bay about 100m behind where I'm going to cut it with a foot down to the bench to keep the height right.
Then cut it and spread it 500mm, probably totally replace the bottom rails and sleeve and extend the top rails.
The bottom rails will still be straight, the top rails will have a horizontal bend in them at the join, this will right next to one of the top engine mounts so that the engine becomes structural and the main rails are all effectively straight still.
Cheers
jon
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Picked up the Waterjet cut plates for the B&J underdrive unit's outboard bearing plates and mounting plates today.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/131B5A81-E508-4949-95E4-3954FDEFA0F8-2192-0000029066220A39_zpse7a97894.jpg)
Just need finishing machining for outboard bearings, counter boring for caphead bolts any tapping other holes.
jon
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Quoting Jon:
I'll tack a light RHS frame to about the tubes in the engine bay about 100m behind where I'm going to cut it with a foot down to the bench to keep the height right.
That's a long bike.
FREUD
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Quoting Jon:
I'll tack a light RHS frame to about the tubes in the engine bay about 100m behind where I'm going to cut it with a foot down to the bench to keep the height right.
That's a long bike.
FREUD
Ain't it? By the way Jon. Those cheepie laser crosshairs is the way I built my car. After shooting optics for jig building I just kept that kind of thinking building my car. It saves investing in a perfectly flat floor. You can put the "floor" anywhere you want in space. :wink: Wayno
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Quoting Jon:
I'll tack a light RHS frame to about the tubes in the engine bay about 100m behind where I'm going to cut it with a foot down to the bench to keep the height right.
That's a long bike.
FREUD
Must have a big Garage
G
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Quoting Jon:
I'll tack a light RHS frame to about the tubes in the engine bay about 100m behind where I'm going to cut it with a foot down to the bench to keep the height right.
That's a long bike.
FREUD
Must have a big Garage
G
I feel obliged to get involved here.
Talk about buckling, first it was six inches, then eighteen...now in an effort to conceal your weakness you've gone metric.......100m, that's putting 10llb of Subaru in a 1000lb bag, you've changed man, you've changed. :-( :-( :-( :-(
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Must get a longer earth lead for my welder.... :0
At that rate my bracing will on the front fence a few houses over, you've seen a flaw in my cunning plan.
Might have to put a bit more thought into it ....
Cheers
jon
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Called in and saw Ross today, as usual our conversation went all over the place talking about his liner and other toys.
In among conversation was chute releases, a while ago I bought a couple of the old frame mount tenspeed pushy change levers for thumb chute releases.
I didn't finish cleaning up like I said I was going to Ross. :roll: :roll:
Made a couple of mounts for the chute release levers that double as Master Cylinder clamps:
Horizontal back view:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/81D3A979-DE2F-436F-BC65-EE6841603FFA-2082-0000028C9010D50A_zpsd0acbd84.jpg)
Top/back view:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/2FD76E8C-6ADA-4885-B88A-CF10373EDEFD-2082-0000028CADB27F60_zps45c89476.jpg)
Venhill throttle that was destined for a cafe project, ZX-14 radial master cylinders (nice and narrow on the bars), Fleabay shorty levers and Underhouse chute release, dummied up on a random clipon.
Clutch side looks same.
Cheers
jon
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Jon & DrG, my hat is off to you two--- on your "packaging". I have studied and restudied both your builds for inspiration :cheers:
I quit worrying about suspension with tires when I figured out what the reaction distance would be with GM's electrionic-magnetic shocks at 300.
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Thanks Sparky, if I'm able to give back a little help for the heaps that I've got from this site it will be good.
Seems to be plenty if successful cars without suspension but less so with bikes, wonder if it's to do with weight per wheel and bikes not having enough weight per wheel to have them flex over minor surface variations?
Same views as yesterday with switches, switches are set back on the bar to make them harder to bump and easier to work, switching horizontally for both the same reasons.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/570C09DB-D85F-4883-B93C-D96BFEA4C665-1340-0000014F7C9D4CA8_zps89990255.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/4AF560A0-52D4-4972-958E-6F70AE0CE4BC-1340-0000014F8A72175D_zps6e5a97c1.jpg)
Will knock some corners off later.
All double pole switches using both contacts for a bit better reliability.
Left Upper: Single throw, Underdrive, away from hand for low, towards for direct.
Left Lower: Double throw Spring return, Main trans, away for downshift, towards for upshift.
Right Upper: Single throw, ECU/Fuel pump, away from hand for off, towards for on.
Right Lower: Double throw Spring return, Landing Gear, away for down, towards for up.
Probably just seems random but operating earthmoving equipment allways has towards for up, on or upshift and my head is used to it.
Cheers
jon
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Probably just seems random but operating earthmoving equipment allways has towards for up, on or upshift and my head is used to it.
Cheers
jon
In my opinion that is very good reasoning. I've always felt the sub conscious mind can save precious seconds, or fractions of, when needed as well as help keep the working environment user friendly.
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A couple hours again today.
Most comfortable/best range of movement seems to be about 45 degrees downslope on the bars.
Made up a centre section for bars, same views:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/1B5E3CD1-22E1-49CD-A2C1-0C845D37ECAA-2302-000002AE98CEE3D7_zpsc2e7781c.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/56EE2CAC-7ECD-4869-B8E2-8767125D737E-2302-000002AE8F2235E4_zps0cfe1e10.jpg)
Clamps the bars like normal clip-on bars, helicoiled M6 pinch bolts, nylon pivot bush, will put a grease nipple in later when I have it fitted up.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/E968FF9E-F25E-4413-8090-2BBE13ADE2E5-2302-000002AEA662FCC6_zps8c906bda.jpg)
Cheers
jon
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A couple hours again today.
Most comfortable/best range of movement seems to be about 45 degrees downslope on the bars.
Made up a centre section for bars, same views:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/1B5E3CD1-22E1-49CD-A2C1-0C845D37ECAA-2302-000002AE98CEE3D7_zpsc2e7781c.jpg)
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/56EE2CAC-7ECD-4869-B8E2-8767125D737E-2302-000002AE8F2235E4_zps0cfe1e10.jpg)
Clamps the bars like normal clip-on bars, helicoiled M6 pinch bolts, nylon pivot bush, will put a grease nipple in later when I have it fitted up.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/E968FF9E-F25E-4413-8090-2BBE13ADE2E5-2302-000002AEA662FCC6_zps8c906bda.jpg)
Cheers
jon
Jon,
I have a few comments. M6 pinch bolts probably OK since handles are straight - - I found that I had to pin my bars to keep them from rotating. 45 degrees may not be that comfortable depending on your riding position. My bars are almost parallel but further arpart than yours. Will you have direct steering or use some leverage, i.e. 1 to 2 to get more turning force if needed? Some guys are comfortable with bars that close together, but not me! Just food for thought.
Tom
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Thanks Tom
The bars are pinned. In the pic of just the centre section you can see a 1/2 depth slot on the non pinch side of the bar hole, the bar has a dowel that slides in there to stop it turning.
I thought I would end up with flatter bars but sitting in my bike with just the two bars and a digital level on one of them I found the best range of movement was around 42 degrees, being lazy 45 was easy to make.
Because I can't move my shoulders at all the steering movement needs to be hand and wrist, being limited in the area my elbows can move meant a flatter bar had uncomfortable sideways wrist movement happening and steeper bars hard more throttle twist trying to happen with steering input.
Bars will be 1:1 ratio with the wheel.
I have a fair bit of room outside my hands on the bars at the moment, won't cut the bars until I have a made it along a course a few times.
Cheers
jon
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Jon,
When I said my bars are parallel (well, almost) I meant like this. I agree that flat bars would be terribly uncomfortable.
Tom
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Thanks to Stay'te, Maj and DavieB my Underdrive made it from B&J to me for the price of a bit of excess luggage and a bottle of Jimmy.
Thanks heaps guys.
The plates I'd made even bolt up :0
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/B6BC974D-852E-4192-9C93-0A5CEBE1C0BF-3144-000003712C788310_zps782e0454.jpg)
Now I have it rather than a CAD model I'd scratched together I can get it and the motor situated relative to each other and stretch the frame.
Cheers
jon
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I thought I would end up with flatter bars but sitting in my bike with just the two bars and a digital level on one of them I found the best range of movement was around 42 degrees, being lazy 45 was easy to make.
Lazy?.....hyperactive overachiever more like it........good to see you really do have a reason for leaving the 10lb club and joining the 15.;-)
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Stand back as far as you can, use the zoom, and enlarge the picture by cropping it on the computer. This reduces the distortion. I was told to do this with my frontal area shots for aero drag figuring. It works for other things, too.
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Thanks guys
Think your on the wrong thread Pops.
Getting slack these days Bo, Mungaphone camera straight to Photobucket to the forum without a cable or disc/card in sight :)
No bike work today:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/5B0EE4A7-832D-4D7E-9399-25E798D680C5-3197-00000383D3D3C8DC_zpsa06dae61.jpg)
Sailing on Moreton Bay with friends :)
jon
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Getting ready to cut it in 1/2.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/F55F2A64-B8D9-442D-A61E-2FF6E7CFF07C-183-00000005F8EF64B3_zps6cda4b14.jpg)
Squaring it up on the bench with cheapie laser crosshairs.
Going to tack a foot to the back of the main rollcage hoop and screw it to the bench.
I'll tack a light RHS frame to about the tubes in the engine bay about 100m behind where I'm going to cut it with a foot down to the bench to keep the height right.
Then cut it and spread it 500mm, probably totally replace the bottom rails and sleeve and extend the top rails.
The bottom rails will still be straight, the top rails will have a horizontal bend in them at the join, this will right next to one of the top engine mounts so that the engine becomes structural and the main rails are all effectively straight still.
Cheers
jon
Nothing wrong with cheapie laser hairs, believe me. That thing don't tell no lies brother. I couldn't do without it. Your project looks great and I'm interested in that underdrive. I'm subscribed. :cheers:
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Thanks Mike, watching your build with interest too.
Had to reclock the air port relative to the fill and drain port so thought I'd have a look inside and work out what spares I wanted to carry and so that I got a look at how it worked so I can troubleshoot it if it misbehaves on the salt.
General unit:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/B6C670A3-EBC9-4BBA-B41E-6C17313CB4B7-3988-0000047AEA3E2157_zps5c43b3a3.jpg)
Clutch pack:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/441D6860-F9EA-4732-9337-D8C1EA55F5B4-3988-0000047B075ABBF1_zps492819b6.jpg)
Sprag clutch and thrust bearing:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/097BB2D3-70D2-49B6-9892-958B6736025D-3988-0000047B1C739400_zps7fabcf66.jpg)
Very happy with the way it's built, they are proven units in drag racing with more hp and traction than I will have.
It will be easy to put a pump and cooler on if needed, should be ok though I think as it will be the first shift and then just a locked unit for the rest of the run.
Things I like other than it being simple and strong:
O ring seal between cases.
Common seal and bearing sizes.
Jacking bolt holes to split the cases that the case retaining bolts screw straight into.
Only downside which is not a reflection in the build but rather how I'm using it is that it has 8 mounting holes on each end and the 2 halves are held together with 12 bolts.
Means can only clock the air port at 3,6,9&12 o'clock.
Again definitely not a build quality issue, I was just hoping to set the air fitting at 45 from vertical.
Cheers
jon
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It's a really nice piece. Solid as a rock. Thanks for showing me the inards. In racing everything is a compromise but it keeps the brain working hey?. I really like the warning "no oil". I did a similar thing on my dummy Sportster motor but for different reasons. The wife didn't get it but Slinky did. Go figure. :lol:
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Thanks Mike, I will surely screw the underdrive up if I do t write on it until its full of oil.
Emailing B&J about what lubricant, guessing ATF but don't want to put anything in until I find out what the clutch frictions are happy with.
A couple of people have asked about my chutes since your thread that Stainless responded to.
My chutes are from Bob Stroud.
Bib recommended seperate pilots to get a strong/reliable launch.
My bike is short in room like any special construction vehicle for that and a couple other reason I cut the spring for the pilot launch spring in 1/2.
I then made a tube with a notched end so I could get the spring to almost bind when loaded and still be supported when released.
As Sparky said they are fun to pack, very versatile word fun....
I've drilled a hole across the tube that take a 1/2 rod that holds the spring at fully compressed, then notched a piece if wood so I can push the spring in and pin the spring.
End view with spring set and pinned ready to pack pilot chute with loading stick:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/10055911-22A0-42C6-A67D-D77C3F6E8451-4099-0000048F6D0D8980_zpsa6048aed.jpg)
Side view with spring relaxed:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/5D04FEFC-2E20-4835-A1BF-ABB24E0B40E4-4099-0000048E7C8CFBC4_zps402d6ef4.jpg)
Packed and latched with a nail:
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/8DCD0AC7-F61A-4D88-A4F7-0842D09B9AB9-4099-0000048F35A83F6D_zps981662d9.jpg)
Test fire, threw the complete pilot and tether 9m or 30':
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/B27E824C-39B3-4252-8E99-707F257E0399-4099-0000048EFC66C00D_zps2b957b57.mp4
Going on advice from several successful bike liners my tilt switch is throwing both chutes.
Both chutes are in deployment bags so will not open until the main tether is at full length.
Regards
jon
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Just our info Jon, we used BG Hi-Low 0-30 Synthetic in our B&J Trans. BG had one of their engineers call and talk to Mike before that oil was selected... had 4 quarts in a tank circulating through the trans.
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Thanks Stainless.
Did you have temperature logging?, if so did you get high temps?
What was your strategy with the two-speed, multiple shifts, big shift down early or smaller shift late.
I'm committed to a big shift early with the ratio I've chosen, just interested with others that have actually run have done.
Not sure if we can get BG lubricants here, will post up Mike's (B&J) recommendations are.
Thanks
jon
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Test fire, threw the complete pilot and tether 9m or 30':
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w278/jonra23/B27E824C-39B3-4252-8E99-707F257E0399-4099-0000048EFC66C00D_zps2b957b57.mp4
Going on advice from several successful bike liners my tilt switch is throwing both chutes.
Both chutes are in deployment bags so will not open until the main tether is at full length.
Regards
jon
Good test for sure - nearly a surprise to anyone walking on the foot path and the cars in the street.
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Jon, we ran their 4 speed, no logging but the oil was quite warm at the end of a run. I think Mike said he preferred motor oil lube properties over auto tranny fluid... but get that from the Strausburgs.
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Thanks Stainless
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Jon,
Another option for oil would be a good mineral base hydraulic oil, like the Mobil DTE series. I have used these in both motor cycle transmissions and also on large milling machine spindle transmissions with great success. They have great lubricating properties, good additive package and work well at elevated temps. I have run them in hydraulic pumps, which they happen to be designed for, at over 7000 psi and 200 deg F, pretty good stuff.
Rex
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Hey, surely there must be a heap of progress by now. Is life getting in the way?
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Thats what I was thinkin too Mate.
Progress has slowed down & I haven't had an email for yonks.
Sid.
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I was talking to Jon at a recent meeting of the Qld branch of DLRA, at Brisbane. I do know he has an awful lot on his plate at the moment.
Regards, Denis
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All good thanks guys, been a little distracted lately.
Decided a couple months ago that something else that needed to be right for me to run in Feb 2014 wasn't going to happen in time.
Just started doing some small bits again, nothing worth showing.
Cheers
jon
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When it runs, all will be forgotten, til then hang in there. :cheers: :cheers:
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Not to HiJack your thread, just looking for some thoughts on gear ratios before I have Robinson make them. Hope the 14 trans is working, Jon.
The gears are like $500 a set, so want it right the first time. And if there is enough interest in a set, like five or ten, The price goes down a little. Like a group buy?
Andit looks like the old 6th gear set can be installed in 5th's position so Only 4th and 6th gear need to be made.
Thoughts?
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj55/gmansyz/Gear3.jpg) (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/gmansyz/media/Gear3.jpg.html)
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj55/gmansyz/Gear2.jpg) (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/gmansyz/media/Gear2.jpg.html)
Thanks
G
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Any updates?
Bill
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Jon is out on "walk about" but on a bicycle for charity.
He will get back
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Jon is out on "walk about" but on a bicycle for charity.
He will get back
Walkabout....
Something about riding his treadly (Australian for Bicycle) from East to West across Australia for charity.
Australia being about the same size as the lower 48 States, and the middle being largely desert
He might be a while
G
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What follows is an email from Jon to all of his workmates;
Hi
Well……………… We made it.
We turned up in Byron Bay around 4:00pm on the Sunday the 27th without any injuries or major incidents.
A massive thanks to everyone who helped us along the way, especially our support crew of Ken Schoemaker, Reegan Cussworth, Ang and Glenn Whitehall and Ness Keogh.
We rode the bikes but they made it possible and were making sure the day ran smoothly before we started and after we stopped riding.
There were a lot of other people who helped along the way but I’ll not start mentioning names as I’ll people out because of my sieve memory.
Thanks also to Steve and Marshall (the other two nutcase riders) for putting up with my idiosyncrasies and supporting me on the not so good for me days.
We saw some amazing countryside and met some really interesting people along the way.
I didn’t throw my bike into the ocean at Byron, the place is too pretty to litter, my bike is leaning up against the wall at the back of my house, last seen with a couple of spiders eyeing it off.
It wasn’t about a bike ride though, it was about raising awareness of and money for Steve and Mozart’s charity Hope and Care for Little Souls, I believe we have raised a bit over $260,000 of our $500,000 target.
A massive thankyou for everyone who contributed to our fundraising efforts and to those who are still about to, every dollar is greatly appreciated, Steve and Mozart will achieve a lot from your generosity.
https://www.hopeacrossaustralia.com/
Thanks
jon
Jon Bennett
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It is nice to see that you made it OK. That is a long trip, for sure.
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Awesome.
God Bless you for doing the ride and raising that much. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Well done Jon! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Awesome! :cheers:
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Jon, truly awesome!
I am glad that you were not having to deal with a problem. Welcome home.
I have been away from my project for a year, dealing with house issues. Life happens.
Is it time to get back to work on the bike liners, mate?
Larry
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Jon, after seeing how close together your handlebar grips are, I advise you
to check the rules of the organization whose rules you're planning to "run under".
There may be an applicable minimum distance between your hands -- I don't
know whether that rule would apply to every class of bike. Just a thought.
tallguy