Landracing Forum
Loring Timing Association (Maine) => Loring (AFB) land speed venue => Topic started by: blackslax on November 20, 2011, 06:44:25 PM
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I guess the cat's out of the bag with the ECTA OHC Twins announcement.
So, Guess I can announce that the LTA has two new MC Classes - Twins (all twins) and Classics (air cooled 1956-1986) Here are the sections from the rulebook:
7.D.4.4 Production Twin (PT): (LTA ONLY)
Same as Production (P) for single and twin cylinder engines only. Pushrod and OHC engines with cylinder angles of 0 – 180 degrees allowed.
7.D.4.5 Production Twin Blown (PTB): (LTA ONLY)
Same as Production Twin (PT) with an original brand factory installed turbocharger or supercharger is required.
7.D.4.13 Twin Gas / Fuel (TG) and (TF):
Any 4-stroke motorcycle engine with 1 or 2 cylinders. Unlimited in design and modification. Pushrod and OHC engines with cylinder angles of 0 – 180 degrees allowed.
Subject to the same limitations as (G) and (F) respectively.
7.D.4.14 Twin Blown Gas / Blown Fuel (TBG) and (TBF):
Same as Section (TG) and (TF) above with a supercharger or turbocharger required. Subject to the same limitations as Classes (BG) and (BF) respectively.
7.D.4.6 Production Classic (PC): (LTA ONLY)
Same as Production (P) for 4-stroke air cooled engines manufactured between 1956 and 1986 inclusively.
7.D.4.15 Classic Gas / Fuel (CG) and (CF):
Any air cooled motorcycle engine manufactured between 1956 and 1986 inclusively. Extensive design and modification of engine allowed. Alteration of cooling fin design, size and placement is allowed. Any system designed to enhance cooling is not permitted. (This includes, but is not limited to water injection, nitrous oxide or water spray systems, radiators, enlarged oil capacity or modified oil systems.)
Fuel delivery may be modified or upgraded but OEM carbureted bikes must remain carbureted. OEM fuel injection may be retained, modified; or replaced by carburetors. No non-OEM engine management allowed. One distributor or magneto allowed. Computers are allowed for data collection purposes only.
7.D.4.16 Classic Blown Gas / Fuel (CBG) and (CBF):
Same as (CG) and (CF) above with a supercharger or turbocharger required.
These new classes should get a lot of dust off those old bikes and give a competative field for torque monsters.
We are also working on another Class for cars and bikes but we are still hammering it out, so stay tuned.
All the best and have a good Thanksgiving.
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Will these fall only under Production Motorcycles or will these motor combos be allowed in A, M etc?
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Will these fall only under Production Motorcycles or will these motor combos be allowed in A, M etc?
It is open to all frame classes.
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Hello all,
I would like to thank the people that helped to make sense of the technical issues involved in creating these new classes:
Joe Daly - Motorcycle Technical Director - His expertise is the reason heads up bike tech and as always, his pragmatic "in the real world" approach clears the air very quickly on details that bog things down.
Scott Guthrie - His historical knowledge of LSR racing, how the rules are manipulated, and how to set a level field to keep the classes competitive was a great help.
Kevin Cameron - Cycle World Magazine - Kevin, while not an LSR person, knows more about the technical issues of motorcycles than anyone alive today. His knowledge was crucial to the conversation.
Now to answer all of the IMs I've been getting:
1) Answered above - Joe Daly, Tim Kelly, Scott Guthrie, and Kevin Cameron developed these classes.
2) Classics end in 1986 because it was at the beginning of a revolution in engine technology and a the shift to water cooling.
3) Classics are air cooled because the VAST majority of bikes from this time period were air cooled and water/oil cooled bikes would have a distinct advantage that render aircooled bikes uncompetitive - they can dissipate heat more efficiently; therefore they can produce more power.
4) Twins are not just V twins because there are many parallel and opposed twins that would like to compete.
5) Twins are OHC and pushrod - Yes this could give the OHC an advantage, but there are many engine sizes in the 350-750cc range where there are not a lot of OHCs. The main contention that I have heard is that Pushrods will not be competitive. My answer is that if they feel they can be competitive, run. If not, run in Pushrod. It's just like helmet laws, "Let those who ride decide."
6) Single are with twins because this is the torque monster class, not the horsepower class. Or as my friend Todd Richards (red and gray haired guy at the starting line) refers to it, "Low end $hit class."
I hope that this answersmost of your questions. If you have any other, please feel free to contact me.
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I have always felt that the non-competitive classes cheapen the rest of the records. They all look like records in the books.
It just makes more work to keep track of everything.
Might as well add bracket classes too. Don't forget participation ribbons for everyone.
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We allready get participation ribbions, they are called timeslips :-D
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Tempt me to rebuild my 64 Norton! :-P
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Kool. I like the classes you are bringing in here.
A few questions . . . . I notice that some of these new engine class rules specifically state that they are only for 4 strokes. Is it intended that all the twin classes and all the classic classes be limited to 4 strokes only? If not, will those allowing 2 strokes have a separate set or records for the 2 strokes and the 4 strokes as is done for the existing ECTA and LTA bike classes? Are all the engine displacement levels open to these new classes (50cc up through 3001+)?
Good luck with this. Wish I still had my old Honda CL175 . . .
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That post #4 is a bit rough.
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Since I have always been of fan of classic bikes, especially air cooled singles and twins, I like the new classes. It should get a bunch more people out to the races with their old bikes.
I must say I don't quite understand why bikes with fuel injection may modify their fuel injection or change back to carburetors, but the carbureted bikes may not not change to fuel injected systems. Also as a point of interest, how many bikes were made that fit in the production twin blown class? I can only think of one make (Honda CX 500 and 650 turbo), and they are as rare as hen's teeth. These two examples are also the only bikes in production blown pushrod class that I know of, so they already have that class sewn up. Are there any others?
Tom
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I must say I don't quite understand why bikes with fuel injection may modify their fuel injection or change back to carburetors, but the carbureted bikes may not not change to fuel injected systems.
Tom
Thank you Tom and everyone (well almost everyone) for your support of the new classes. The reason for rule above is to keep Classics from turning into a technology race. Just Like Classic Car class. If it had FI you can put in larger injectors, bore the bodies, etc. or switch to carbs. We don't want everyone switching over to engine management, power commanders, closed loop systems. That goes against the spirit of the class.
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Thanks to both the LTA and ECTA for giving me the opportunity to realistically run my Ducati for records on the East coast and my 500ex in a class other than production. The only negative point I would like to make, and it is a pretty minor one, is that it would have been nice it the designations were the same for both organizations. I like to use nice lettering for my class designation and it seems a little wasteful having to toss them in the trash a few weeks in a row in July when they are essentially running in the same classes at both venues. No big deal though as I am thrilled with the changes overall.
:cheers:
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Thanks to both the LTA and ECTA for giving me the opportunity to realistically run my Ducati for records on the East coast and my 500ex in a class other than production. The only negative point I would like to make, and it is a pretty minor one, is that it would have been nice it the designations were the same for both organizations. I like to use nice lettering for my class designation and it seems a little wasteful having to toss them in the trash a few weeks in a row in July when they are essentially running in the same classes at both venues. No big deal though as I am thrilled with the changes overall.
:cheers:
We are using different class designations because the classes are not the same. ECTA is OHC only, we are ANY twin.
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First, I like the new classes....great ideas. I have some questions/points on this class, however.
7.D.4.15 Classic Gas / Fuel (CG) and (CF):
Any air cooled motorcycle engine manufactured between 1956 and 1986 inclusively. Extensive design and modification of engine allowed. Alteration of cooling fin design, size and placement is allowed. Any system designed to enhance cooling is not permitted. (This includes, but is not limited to water injection, nitrous oxide or water spray systems, radiators, enlarged oil capacity or modified oil systems.)
Fuel delivery may be modified or upgraded but OEM carbureted bikes must remain carbureted. OEM fuel injection may be retained, modified; or replaced by carburetors. No non-OEM engine management allowed. One distributor or magneto allowed. Computers are allowed for data collection purposes only.
Unlimited engine mods, but no enlarged oil cooler allowed (oil capacity)? And yet you can alter the cooling fin design, size, and placement??
"Modified oil system" is very vague. Some bikes have inherent oiling issues, as from the factory. And you will find that the 1986 Suzuki GSXR series had a huge oil cooler and oil spray jets from the factory....but older designs had no such advantage.
I guess I don't understand why you would limit cooling on an air-cooled bike (with the exception of making it water-cooled, of course). That seems like a great place for some old-fashioned racer ingenuity.
Anyway, as I say, I love the general idea. But I think there needs to be some clarifications, and perhaps some further considerations. Then I will start shopping. :-D
Shane
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First, I like the new classes....great ideas. I have some questions/points on this class, however.
Unlimited engine mods, but no enlarged oil cooler allowed (oil capacity)? And yet you can alter the cooling fin design, size, and placement??
"Modified oil system" is very vague. Some bikes have inherent oiling issues, as from the factory. And you will find that the 1986 Suzuki GSXR series had a huge oil cooler and oil spray jets from the factory....but older designs had no such advantage.
I guess I don't understand why you would limit cooling on an air-cooled bike (with the exception of making it water-cooled, of course). That seems like a great place for some old-fashioned racer ingenuity.
Anyway, as I say, I love the general idea. But I think there needs to be some clarifications, and perhaps some further considerations. Then I will start shopping. :-D
Shane
Shane,
I don't think you need any clarification. You appear to get the letter of the rule very well. I think that the issue is that you don't necessarily agree with it, and that is a whole other matter.
The reason we chose to write the rules as they are presented is to keep the class competitive for the vast majority of motorcycles that were built in that era and keep the class affordable for anyone that wants to get their feet wet in LSR racing. There are always anomalies that will happen and there are some instances of bikes that will have an advantage in certain classes. We can't stop that. In fact, the bike you mention was brought up when we made the choice of what year to make the break because we have a '91 air/oil cooled that did 250 in September.
A lot of discussion took place with regard to what lengths would be taken by the open up the wallet crowd and we were given a great history lesson by Kevin and Scott about the lengths that drag racers went to squeeze out every inch pound of power that essentially turned air cooled bikes into oil/nitrous/water cooled bikes that happened to have fins which would go against the spirit of the class. It is the same reason that EFI is not allowed to be added.
If I were you, I 'd add an '86 GSXR to my christmas list.
AS for the vagueness of the modified oil system, We will present clarification.
Thanks and all the best
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Kool. I like the classes you are bringing in here.
A few questions . . . . I notice that some of these new engine class rules specifically state that they are only for 4 strokes. Is it intended that all the twin classes and all the classic classes be limited to 4 strokes only? If not, will those allowing 2 strokes have a separate set or records for the 2 strokes and the 4 strokes as is done for the existing ECTA and LTA bike classes? Are all the engine displacement levels open to these new classes (50cc up through 3001+)?
Good luck with this. Wish I still had my old Honda CL175 . . .
TO clarify, these rulesa are preliminary and subject to change: Like forgetting to add that they are all 4-stroke classes. (Sorry 2-stroke guys.) They are all open to all current engine sizes.
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How would this effect engine designs that were produced prior to 86 but continued on past 86? I.E. the Evolution Harley motor.
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How would this effect engine designs that were produced prior to 86 but continued on past 86? I.E. the Evolution Harley motor.
Really?
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How would this effect engine designs that were produced prior to 86 but continued on past 86? I.E. the Evolution Harley motor.
Really?
Yes, really. Sorry I had a question.
More specifically I have a pretty nasty EVO sportster engine, that I would gladly give anyone a $5 bill to tell it apart from is 1986 EVO counterpart, all though it is newer
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why wouldnt you run it in pushrod ...
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I could. Not to argue with anyone but cant all of these "new" class engines run in a current (pre these new classes) class?
Again, I really wasnt trying to start a pissing match. I will go back to my corner now
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There are two things to keep people from breaking the 1986 rule. Their conscience, and the S/N on the motor.
I would hope that the former would be sufficient, but the latter would be easily verifiable.
As for the point of classes that you can run in. You would be able to run in Twin, Pushrod, or Classic if it wre pre-'86.
That is the "let those who ride decide" paradox.
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First, I like the new classes....great ideas. I have some questions/points on this class, however.
Unlimited engine mods, but no enlarged oil cooler allowed (oil capacity)? And yet you can alter the cooling fin design, size, and placement??
"Modified oil system" is very vague. Some bikes have inherent oiling issues, as from the factory. And you will find that the 1986 Suzuki GSXR series had a huge oil cooler and oil spray jets from the factory....but older designs had no such advantage.
I guess I don't understand why you would limit cooling on an air-cooled bike (with the exception of making it water-cooled, of course). That seems like a great place for some old-fashioned racer ingenuity.
Anyway, as I say, I love the general idea. But I think there needs to be some clarifications, and perhaps some further considerations. Then I will start shopping. :-D
Shane
Shane,
I don't think you need any clarification. You appear to get the letter of the rule very well. I think that the issue is that you don't necessarily agree with it, and that is a whole other matter.
The reason we chose to write the rules as they are presented is to keep the class competitive for the vast majority of motorcycles that were built in that era and keep the class affordable for anyone that wants to get their feet wet in LSR racing. There are always anomalies that will happen and there are some instances of bikes that will have an advantage in certain classes. We can't stop that. In fact, the bike you mention was brought up when we made the choice of what year to make the break because we have a '91 air/oil cooled that did 250 in September.
A lot of discussion took place with regard to what lengths would be taken by the open up the wallet crowd and we were given a great history lesson by Kevin and Scott about the lengths that drag racers went to squeeze out every inch pound of power that essentially turned air cooled bikes into oil/nitrous/water cooled bikes that happened to have fins which would go against the spirit of the class. It is the same reason that EFI is not allowed to be added.
If I were you, I 'd add an '86 GSXR to my christmas list.
AS for the vagueness of the modified oil system, We will present clarification.
Thanks and all the best
To further this point, I spoke with Bill Warner this morning. (He is recovering nicely and we will see him this summer.) He did 311 on a bike that does not have a cooling system.......