Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: JimL on November 19, 2011, 12:41:45 AM
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This bike will replace Dan Wagner's 2011 MPS-PG-650 record bike. Engine improvements have been completed, chain drive conversion in process, new chassis is 1995 Honda CBR600f3. The 1978 CX500 chassis used for this years bike was extremely unstable, which prevented Dan from using full throttle during his record runs.
- engine is leaned forward, similar to my APS-PG-750 record bike (which is now APS-PG-650 for 2012, with an identical "destroke" engine as seen in Dan's bike)
- rear shock tilted more vertical to accept large weight increase (the CX650 engine is much heavier than the 600 engine was, plus extra battery, water tank, electric pump, etc)
- photo of my square check to perfectly align rear wheel with steering head and front wheel. This enables perfect engine alignment and countershaft sprocket alignment.
- new 14.3:1 piston shown with one of my previous 13:1 750 class pistons to show pin offset for the de-stroke crank. The pistons crowns look offset, but are actually centered. The angle across the crown/valves is 22 degrees turned from wrist pin alignment (strange engine).
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Jim,
I always enjoy watching and learning from your builds. :cheers:
Lots of interesting fabrication.
Cheers,
Scott
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This is the motor (CX-500, CX-650) that will eventually hold many if not all of the pushrod gas class records. Big bore, short stroke, twin cylinder, 4 valves per cylinder, water cooled. Makes our old British bikes look prehistoric! I recognized this before I started my BSA build, but I am more familiar with the simplicity of the BSA single, so that's where I started. So far, so good. I might be able to hang on to my records for a little longer!
Your alignment technique looks interesting. It looks like you're using the rear wheel as "true center", and aligning the rest of the bike to it - - seems difficult because the head stock and frame which are not necessarily plumb would put them in a different plane from than the wheels. I used a straight line on my jig, actually the edge of my jig (like snapping a chalk line on your floor), off to one side of the bike's centerline, and used a spirit level vertical and measured over to center points on the frame, wheels, triple clamps etc. Ideally, a rotating laser level, like we used to use to erect 20 story buildings (which you can rent from a good rental store) would be nice. They have a target that can be attached to a rod that is held horizontally at a given distance from the rotating beam, which beeps when on target. They seem to be accurate to about an inch in 200 feet. Or I thought about erecting a flat sheet of MDF board vertically at a given distance and using it as a reference plane. I don't know how other people do it - - no one here to ask. I don't believe that a small degree of error on a motorcycle frame makes much difference at the speeds I go in a straight line, but it's still nice to try to get things aligned properly the first time.
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The way you do it is pretty much the way most do it ...
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I used a build table for the APS bike, dead flat, plumb bobs, digital leveling, etc. This particular bike was a running, straight, stock CBR. The measurement method shown is checked both sides, 6 points of rear wheel rotation, to put the rear wheel dead straight in the bike. That gives me my datum line for countershaft sprocket alignment. The rear wheel is rotated to check various points (vertically) at front of the frame area (squaring tool must pivot on the axle line to do this).
Just in case, I also checked steering head, both sides, after dead true on rear wheel (perfect) and then checked front wheel, from both sides, for dead true at straight ahead (also perfect). After several hours of checking, I find that...as usual...Honda builds nice bikes.
:cheers:
Regards, JimL
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Jim,
I'm sure you got it right. You might actually have some straight wheels as well, unlike the spokey things I use!
Tom
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Jim,
If you put the old motor into a modern chasis doesn't that make it an A bike not an M?
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M- is a modified stock chassis (using "similar" geometry, which I won't change at all) with same brand engine (such as "Honda in a Honda"). They don't require the engine to be the same year and/or displacement as the original part. Though I'm moving the upper rear shock mount, rear suspension isn't even required for M- class, so that also is non-issue (unless the seat height is set too low, but we'll probably use stock seat because it's in good shape).
Regards, JimL
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Wheel alignment does not need to be mental. Simply coast down a long hill with no hands on the bars. The wheels are out of line if you need to lean to one side in order to go straight. Simply adjust the wheel alignment until you go straight without leaning to the side.
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until you go straight without leaning to the side . . . or crashing.
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Jim,
I'm sure you realized that the CBR used the motor as a stressed lower frame member, and your CBX motor doesn't connect to those lower spars in your photographs. I think you will need to replicate the lost support from the non-existent motor.
Wheel alignment does not need to be mental. Simply coast down a long hill with no hands on the bars. The wheels are out of line if you need to lean to one side in order to go straight. Simply adjust the wheel alignment until you go straight without leaning to the side.
Unless you're on a BSA single cylinder bike, which has the motor offset to the left about 1-1/2". Likes to turn left, OK on a NASCAR oval. Interestingly enough, it still seems to handle pretty well at speed.
Tom
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Correct, I'm adding a lower cradle that will use the same mounting method that has worked well on my A- bike. The V-twin has to "insert" from the left, due to the strange location of the motor mounts. Actually, the mount pattern is "around the crankshaft" similar to a front wheel drive automobile. In the original shaft drive orientation, it appears that the back case of the engine is the strong point. When the engine is disassembled, it reveals the "front" (my "right") side mounts are the beefy ones into the block. The back case is a really thin shell (my "left" case). That is why I'm able to make the chain drive conversion work....not much load on that left case.
Basically, the frame will have a cradle bolted to the original CBR engine mount areas. Most of the engine load will carry in the cradle, and the cradle becomes the lower stiffener from steering head to swing arm pivot area, along with the CX engine block.
Regards, JimL
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Jim,
Actually, I probably miss-spoke when I said that Honda used the motor as a stressed lower frame member. I don't know that and shouldn't have said that. I should have said that it appeared that Honda used the motor as a stressed member. Sorry, but you have taken the necessary precautions, anyway. Sometimes the engineer in me gets ahead of my mouth, or my mouth get ahead of my brain.
Tom
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I'm waiting to hear from SCTA what build method will be allowed. The new rule about the perimeter tubes could be interpreted a lot of ways, so it's time to wait and see.
Regards, JimL
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Always amazing how the first idea is the best. When I first started this, I envisioned the engine leaned forward and both carbs and exhaust below the perimeter frame. Then, I thought "wouldn't it be cool to have the rear head above the frame". Of course that idea led to questions about welding mounts to the top of the perimeter frame (and the new rules).
I was looking at the thing tonight, and realised the countershaft sprocket wouldn't line up. To make a long story short, I dropped the engine lower, and forward, and everything will work. A bolt on cradle will fit it to the stock CBR mounts, and the carbs and pipes will fit without reworking the gas tank. Saves repainting the frame, also!
Meanwhile, got the APS-PG-650 bike fired up today. It started well (I was a little worried about the starter running against the new 14.3:1 pistons), and sounds great. Tomorrow I'll put the fiberglass back on and load it on the trailer, ready for Speedweek. Gotta' move fast; won't have a work space or a house after the first of the year! :-P
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You'll be the first homeless competitor! Enjoy the Bend in the Road.
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We're really looking forward to "full timing" for a while. I'll be watching the board with my iPAD when I stop at those McDonalds for my "chocolate chip cookies and WiFi!" :-) :-)
It is interesting, looking at the new Modified rules, and thinking of a few of the bikes that will be moving into A class. It looks like there will be more noticeable difference in the appearance of A and M bikes, and it will be a lot of fun building to the "new M"class.
JimL
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Where are you moving to, Jim?
Tom
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1996 Winnebago 29ft Brave, actual position of the rig will be determined as we go, but starting near Yuma (BLM land) and then heading east/south with the weather. The A- bike, trailer, and gear will go to LaJunta, Colorado, along with Dans M- project at whatever stage I get it. About late June/early July I'll be in LaJunta for a while and we'll all go to SpeedWeek from there.
The M- project is moving along well, with the chain-drive internal enclosure finished. I've found almost 5/8" improvement in the sprocket position, which will make the bike easier to correct lateral CG. This has to be nailed before I can finalize engine position. I'll try to get a few more pictures up, with a little more progress, before I bail. Thanks for the interest and thoughtful comments; it's useful when you're working alone and hoping you've not missed something important. I still miss Willy "looking over our shoulder" in these Build Diaries. :-(
Regards, JimL
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Engine mounts built and engine hung; uses the original CBR mount points with all bolt-in method. The engine will come out similar to an old Super Hawk (take every thing loose but 2 forward and swing down.) The engine position wound up very like a Ducati (except this engine is 80 degrees, not 90.) Rear exhaust header will be inside the bend in the right side mount tube.
Countershaft sprocket position is improved, as planned, and I'm also shortening the water pump cover to allow the carbs to position closer to the heads. My APS bike is too long for intake tuned length. Perhaps I'll modify it if time allows.
Stock tank and seat fit just fine, and the rear shock "more vertical" mount will clear the tank as well. 8-) The swing arm will get about 5 more inches (a little less than the 10% rule). I still have to pull the engine back apart and change to the closer ratio CX500 trans (chain drive gearing options make that useful).
Regards, JimL
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Jim,
Is the CX motor mounted entirely from the right side? If so, I would beef up that new tube spar you have added which fastens the motor to the frame to resist twisting. Also, I'm sure you have already studied the fact that with the new motor position, oil pickup may need to be modified or a new oil pan made or both. Just an observation.
Tom
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Looks great. Can you expand on the 10% rule a little more?
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Yes, the right side is the main mount (heavy part of the block); that left case is thin and hollow. My A- bike only uses a single left mount near the countershaft sprocket, outer shaft bearing. This bike has 3 mount points on the left side, including the primary upper (behind the perimeter frame), and two forward (one is just below the original CBR mount). That long lower left case mount bolt is only holding some of the "pull load" of my chain drive conversion.
The right side has two additional mounts that are behind the perimeter frame......got bolts all over the place! The engine block is actually part of the upper casting (only on right side), and the big lower case is all very thin, similar to the left case (normally back case). During my first build, I broke a lower case while prying on what I thought was a mount hole with a short screwdriver!....learned my lesson.
The oil pickup on these is in the front of the lower case (very front of the sump). I also tilt the engine in my A- bike for the same reason....get the oil pickup well covered.
10% note - that's max wheelbase addition for Modified class, typically in the swingarm.
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thanks for the clarification.
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Geeez NRHS, how can you type...it's 9 degrees below zero, there :-o(just talked to my mom, down the road from you).
brrrrr, it's so cold here in SoCal that the girls have got T-shirts on, over their bikinis. :cry:
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Cold in Colorado? Snow?
We had to come back to Nova Scotia from Colorado just to warm up! If we don't stop getting this "global warming" trend, I'm going to have to mow the lawn again.
Tom
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Who did the crank? offset ground or billet?
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Castillo did the crankshafts, weld up and offset ground to 59.85mm stroke (only had to move about 3mm because the original engine was only 680cc with .020" overbore). The crankshaft is a simple single pin type, with plain bearings.
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Just a couple of pics to show how well this engine fits the package. Added more mounting on the left side, top shock position roughed in, finished the seal carrier and seal installation in the chain drive conversion, finish mounted the internal baffling for the chain drive (ready to install sprockets and chain at this time, but bike will get swing arm stretch in Colorado). The flat water pump cover can be seen in the left side photo (for carb float bowl clearance). I moved the water inlet down, and added a bleeder point in the upper curve of the original impeller case (these cooling systems are very hard to bleed; my A- bike has to be hung vertically by the back of the frame.)
Also one pic of unusual project sharing some time; helping a friend from Holland with his 6-cylinder, fuel injected Kawasaki. He's turning it into a Cafe Racer.
JimL
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One of the "worry spots" has been the rear cylinder headpipe. Today I found some "tight" mandrel bent tubes and started some hand-shaping of a generic exhaust flange. I was able to fit the pipe between the head and perimeter frame with a nice radius. The pipe can be removed and installed without moving the engine or any of the mounts/tubes! I made my own end ring, with weld knobs behind it, spaced to allow the pipe to twist into the port and then accept the flange (which has one closed slot and one open slot to allow the "jigwaw puzzle" to go together.)
I have not put the angle-end on the pipe, to turn the exhaust outward (footpegs have to move back, so it will come later). This pipe is using 18" header length and 14" shallow megaphone length. The front header will be much easier, and the megs will be stacked, one below the other, with exits through the lower section of the fairing.
Regards, JimL
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Carbs will fit, and still have room under the tank.
JimL
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Handlebars will be mounted lower after the fairing is fitted and steering stops in place. This is a pretty little thing, despite the strange pushrod engine!
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Very creative build.............Certainly looks to be a challenger in the 650 class.
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We hope so, it will be running against the record Dan set this year. This is the same engine, but a little more serious power upgrades, plus chain drive instead of shaft. This bike will also be a "bolt-in" candidate for my "half-a-680" 340cc single (my 680cc gave us a couple of 159+ miles, this year). That little motor will have to wait for future years, and lower gears (poetry). :|
Regards, and happy Holidays!
JimL
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Jim, this is in response to your saying there are problems with getting power at over 10,000 rpm. Most of my experience is with British stuff and 10,000 rpm means an exploding motor. I never thought about how to get power at those engine speeds. The following are some things I read about or heard during discussions.
The engine math we use is based on average values, for the most part. The actual things happening in the engine vary above and below that average. The calculations might show the average mach numbers at the valves to be slightly below sonic. In reality there might be some places where it is sonic and this will hurt power.
Proper fuel atomization can be a problem with some delivery systems at high engine speeds.
Flame front speed is dependent on the properties of combustion and not rpm. Possibly at high rpm the peak pressure spike in the combustion chamber is occurring too late in the cycle. The piston is too far beyond TDC. Some additional spark advance might help.
This is about all I know.
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That's what I'm thinking. I've been pretty conservative with the timing, but I know I'm getting late, now that I'm starting to burn and distort exhaust valves. I'll have to step up a little on fuel, and burn earlier, and hope I can "climb out of the hole" on 4th-5th gear upshift. That's catching about 140mph, now, and I'm just about falling off the cam on the shift. Funny how the power band gets so narrow as the speed creeps up (it's mostly just plain "lack off cubic inches" in my little engines.) Perhaps someday I can build a skinnier bike.
Regards, JimL
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Running smaller displacement engines and a narrow power band means gearing is critical. The great white dyno will keep you out of the power band in high gear if you miss the gearing by one tooth in the rear.
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I missed it by two, this year, due to my old eyes reading the numbers on the sprocket wrong, and my befuddled brain thinking, "...why am I cutting so much out of this chain?" :?
"Left the money laying on the table", as they say. I sure hope I've got this new bike figured about right; I don't have as many gearing choices available due to the shorter chassis creating a "close" spot at the swing arm sliders.
Regards, JimL
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Those Honda race bikes from a long time ago all used reverse cone meggas, as I recall. That might be what you need to widen the power band.
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JimL: now that I'm starting to burn and distort exhaust valves
I suppose your engine is still water cooled??? If so, the usual cause for valve failure in such engines is cooling water flashing out as steam in the proximity of the combustion chamber.
Usually caused by having not enough pressure in the system to prevent the water flashing. The practical remedy is to make the outlet water pipes on top of your heads a much smaller diameter to create a back pressure that will increase the temperature at which water will flash. Restrict by inserting a reducer.
Check how small the outlets are on this Miller supercharged engine:
(http://www.milleroffy.com/miller_boyle_7.jpg)
Patrick
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I missed it by two, this year, due to my old eyes reading the numbers on the sprocket wrong, and my befuddled brain thinking, "...why am I cutting so much out of this chain?" :?
"Left the money laying on the table", as they say. I sure hope I've got this new bike figured about right; I don't have as many gearing choices available due to the shorter chassis creating a "close" spot at the swing arm sliders.
Regards, JimL
Jim,
This is what I did to help me choose the correct sprocket. Red is the fastest (smallest), orange is next, etc. Easier to remember what color to use than try to remember the number.
As to your problem of burnt exhaust valves, I would re-visit your decision to flow the cooling water in the reverse of normal (thru the heads first). I think it is possible that some areas high in the heads may be starved for cooling water.
Tom
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Interesting and good thinking. I did have some air trapped last year (learned recently that I have to suspend the bike vertically to get it all out). I found no evidence of water getting through the head gasket, but steam is really a gas and I don't think I would have noticed that after wrestling off the heads.
I can easily go back to stock water flow (that's how I originally ran it, in 2010). I'll figure that out next summer; everything is packaged up to store, now, and I won't have access until about July.
Thanks for all the help and support, folks. It seems like I've learned more on this forum than all the schools in my life!
JimL
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It has been a while since I could work on this, but we are trying for Speedweek since my APS bike is ready and loaded. The first pic may not seem very interesting, but it is a real lesson in reading the rule book correctly AND looking at the manufacturers parts closely.
I had lengthened the swing arm early in the project, adding just over 5 inches to the stock 55.3" wheelbase. Sounds logical, but that is wrong. The rule book reads MAXIMUM wheelbase can be 10% over spec. Well, it turns out spec is with the axle slid all the way forward. This means you can only add 10% MINUS the maximum adjustment range in the swing arm. Today I took the extra wheelbase out, to bring me back to 60.8" maximum wheelbase. I took out enough to put the back of the window one-half axle width behind the max wheelbase.
When I reassembled and adjusted the axle all the way back, I could only get to 60.2" max wheelbase. I have now learned that the window in the swingarm is longer than available travel of the chain adjustors. It seems there is a little arrow, in the adjuster casting, on each side. Honda makes the window long enough to see the indicator when the axle adjusters bottom against the end caps. I'm guessing they want you to see that there is no chain adjustment left when the arrows hit the end of the window....not the axle. I hope this helps someone else figure out how to avoid my chain of mistakes.
The second photo shows our water cooling tank, since we dont have enough room ahead of the engine for a radiator.. Much more to do, but at least it is moving forward.
Regards, JimL
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It looks like you have a handle to move the trailer with the orange bike on it around the shop. A good idea.
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Actually, that is a bumper to protect the back of the bike, and it is pulled out of the receiver and installed sideways (to the left) with the "gloved hand" on the ground. It then serves as a stabilizer when I hoist the bike off the trailer and swing it over the left fender. The bike has a pair of heavy tabs under the front of the frame, which bolt it to the trailer (no tie downs needed).
This MPS bike now has a pair of bolt down tabs for the same purpose. I will post a pick when I finish the mount and have the bike bolted to the stand. I had it bolted to my flatbed when I brought it from Colorado last month. It was the only part of my load that didnt need constant attention on that long run.
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Coupla' pics from today. The "trailer mount tabs" are welded to the bottom frame rails (which are made out of .125 x 1" tube to hold those thick tabs) and the "trailer base" is made (and bolted to my table for now). The stock tank and seat fit just fine (which is easy when you use a stock frame). The cooling tank is mounted, fitting between the wheel and swing arm and extending under the swing arm pivot area. This will get a Dedenbear electric water pump, same as I use on my APS bike.
Still struggling with the belly pan fit and various repairs to the fairing that we last used on the CX500 shaft drive bike. This is turning into a recycled cycle!
Regards, JimL
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First pic show front suspension in "bottomed out" position. I had to mold the belly pan to fit over the front cylinder, including the little bump for the plug cap. The bike will have about 1.5" front wheel travel.
The second pic shows the linkage for the ProLink in its "near maximum" rising rate position. This method is a simple way to limit travel on this type of suspension. The rising rate is ramped very quickly at this position of the arm, so rear suspension travel is limited to about 1" at the wheel. The third pic shows the simple method to accomplish this effect; simply make a stand to swing the rear shock up and back. That is what pulls the linkage into the maximum "increase" range of travel. I had to make a little room in the seat mount tube to clear the new position of the shock reservoir line.
Still plugging along. Regards, JimL
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But, It's not Orange???
G
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And the wires aren't yellow. :-D
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Jim,
Looks good. What method did you use to limit the front end suspension travel? Also, as I understand, the rear linkage is changed to cause the spring rate to rise at a faster rate than standard, by changing the geometry of the linkage. Is that correct?
Tom
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Tom, correct about the rear linkage. You are getting the rocker into its fastest ratio change range. Its not a hard tail, but its real stiff after about 1/2".
On the forks I used the same method we used in the flat-tracking days. Schedule 40 sleeves outside the tube for absolute stops, and Schedule 40 spring spacers to increase preload inside the tubes. The outside sleeve doesnt make contact, done right, except when tied-down for transport.
That was the fix for us poor guys that couldnt afford short Betors or Cerianis. In the beginning, we used to use steel or aluminum tubng, but aluminum against steel was bad and steel was hard to find in the right sizes. PVC or ABS never made rust inside the tubes.
I'm suspecting sliding a flat-tracker and running straight on salt have one thing in common: you dont want the bike changing attitude when the power is held on, or chopped momentarily. The wobbly bikes all had too soft front ends, it seemed. And maybe too much travel?
By the way, fellows, this isnt my bike so it wont be orange! :wink:
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By the way, fellows, this isnt my bike so it wont be orange! :wink:
Thank goodness we have got that cleared up :-D
G
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This sorta shows the paint scheme....still need to clear coat. I sure miss the good lacquer spray can paint. All we get now is pretty much junk. :x
This is the "storage" side of my garage. I had to pull the orange bike back apart due to a battery failure and an oil leak that showed up after I was smoking in the new exhaust paint and heat wrap. It's always something, isn't it?
I did get the engine buttoned up on this M- bike today. Closer gear ratios and a bigger cam for this year (same cam I put in the orange whale). I also had to move the footpegs forward, after correcting my wheelbase error from the first period of this build.
I dont know why the pic flips when you click on it. Another iPad "feature" perhaps.
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Manifolds built, carbs mounted, throttle worked out, and fuel lines routed for the Pingle remote shut off. There is a side view with the engine coolant inlet visible behind the carbs. The front view, taken between the forks, shows the height difference of the carbs due to the extreme tilt of this V-twin. The top view shows how much room is still available under the stock CBR tank.
Fun stuff, today.
Regards, JimL
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After two days of struggle, I finally found a place for the battery. Due to the chain drive conversion, the engine loses a lot of weight on the "new left side". The battery needs to live as far left as possible to help balance. This battery box swings away from the engine for access to the terminals. I will have to make a salt cover for it, but at least its in the bike, finally.
JimL
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Wow Jim. I'll bet you are the only guy who knows what everything on that bike does. A lot of parts in a small space.
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This seems to be the way of everything Bonneville. By the time you get enough cooling capacity for those long pulls, there is no room left in the bike or car. For my bikes, the biggest challenge has been learning to manage all that heat.
Every time I turn up the horsepower, I have to add more cooling, which is how my orange bike came to need the bigger cooling tank for this year. That bike will get a lot more difficult when I add the turbo and go back to 750 class! :-P
This thing is getting pretty close to firing up. Not much else to pack in.
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Finally fired it up last night. Pretty mean sounding thing. Starting this thing on a single battery is pretty dicey; a LOT of compression in this new set up. I run two batteries on my A bike, but this bike is a little short on space, you might say. :-P
A lot of work yesterday with both heads back off and the final drive case off...again. I made some carb changes, got the water pump mounted and pumping, a toe shield for the right foot, and a chain guard with side protection for the rider. You can see the red gas tank in one pic, sitting on my A bike trailer; just the tailpiece to finish fitting and the last of my spray can paint job to finish.
This bike hoists into my flatbed with the crane on the trailer. The crane swings out to the side of the trailer, I pick up the bike, and then back the flatbed under it and let it down to bolt its bracket to the truck. It gets transferred to Dans trailer when we meet on the salt.
Still a few more days work and then start hustling to get my old truck ready for another run to Utah.
JimL
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Looking good Jim.
It will be at least one more week before we get our bike running.
See you later, Don
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I bet you can get yours running without hitting the valves on the pistons! :oops:
I swear this hobby is going to make me pull my hair out....wait...I don't hardly have any hair...I guess that solves that problem.
Give me a shout when you are about ready, and I will break away for a little visit to your shop. I've actually been splitting time with the bike project and my "cable tramway" I'm building on my property (took a ride on it Saturday last!) Pretty exciting, hanging your derriere on a Chinese winch with a plastic cable drum. :evil: We tested it by loading me and about 200 pounds of rocks on the tram, and having Jeanne run me down the track and back up. She thinks its a labor saving device for her to access her lower garden area, but I just like to build weird stuff. :wink:
At least it started and ran on the very first try, unlike a certain red motorcycle on my build table.
JimL
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Hi Jim
Can post a pic of your Tram as i like that ' Spiro Gearloose ' stuff too.
How in the heck did your valves hit the piston's, first guess oop's cam in the wrong place?
Neat looking salt bike too
G Don
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Bonneville projects teach you to fabricate! This project is planning for old age, when we can no longer carry a loaded wheelbarrow up and down steep stairs (which will be about Thursday, I'd say). I also have to be able to take my welder down to fix the crappy fence the previous owner cobbled up.
When finished, the "rails" will be concealed by weathered cedar, with x-style trestle bracing for appearance. The tram car will be dressed to look like an old mine car, and the winch will be enclosed in a weathered looking box. I run the cable to the car, through the bottom square tube, and then up to the opposite rail end. This gives the winch 2:1 reduction, mainly for slowing down the movement.
At the top of the bank (near the landing of the tramway) will be a garden shed, made to look like an old mine Assay office. Also, the sprinkler valve manifolds and control area (other side of the tramway, toward the fence) will be hidden in a rough concrete "abandoned mine" facing-box, with a weathered iron door for access to work on the manifolds and valves. This is all happening because the bank must be covered with the black rock I haul from a local quarry. They let me take a truckload for $10 if I load it. Fortunately, I have a homemade liftgate on my little flatbed!
Just a note... the 1 5/8" .120 wall galvanized (used to build the tramway) is cheaper than non-galvanized, around here. Go figure. :|
JimL
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Hi Jim
Yep this rac'n stuff is the perfect learning place for stuff you will never learn in a class room, as it teach's one to think outside the box
Your tram is really neat, thanks for the pics
Looking forward to seeing it all done
G Don
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Yes on the cam... one tooth off. Thats what happens when you clay check, confirm its good, and then have to tear back down for a different reason. You see, last year I bent the cam bolts (backed out of the gear) on my A bike and subsequently put them in with Loctite.
So....now I had this engine together, but got nervous whether I Loctited them. I pulled it back apart, redid the Loctite on the cam bolts, after removing the cam gear and cleaning out the Loctite I'd already done. By this time its late in the evening, hot, tired, and swatting mosquitos. Putting the cam in one tooth off was pretty much de riguer at that point.
Now for another lesson. Sunday night, just before I shut the engine down from the 30 second run without coolant (recommended to melt the glue on the headgaskets), it started fluffing the front cylinder. I had pulled the lever on the Pingle as soon as it fired, therefore the event did not seem abnormal. Today, I was putting firesleeve on the fuel lines. I use a small diameter punch in the fuel hose, to keep the fiberglass strands out of the fuel line (having stuck a float needle from this issue, two years ago). After getting the sleeve in place, I pulled out the punch. Chunks of gritty rubber fell on the floor.
At that moment I realized I had used this section of fuel line with some E10 pump gas run through it, about a year ago (transferring some gas). After cleaning out the carb (did both, just in case), I called it a day.
Gentlemen, if you have EVER had E10 in your race bike fuel lines, watch out.
Regards, JimL
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Not just e10.
I had left my float bowls full of race gas and they had a red dust like compound in them.
Don
P.S. Jim, when ever you want to come by just give me a shout.
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Hi Jim
Do you have room for Safety wire on your cam bolts, pretty bullit proof way to keep them in place
Plus i like to use a indicator for checking valve to piston, as the clay can give you a false reading and the idicator is right on
G Don
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Don, I think thats the tetraethyl lead, isnt it? I know it gets in the oil and stains the bottom of the piston crowns, whatever it is. I'll give you a call, got to go chase fuel line today and a Crepe Myrtle for wife.
G Don, I am not that skilled or advanced. Truth is, CP had my heads and previous pistons to build from and they were confident the problems of 2010-11 were solved. Last year I finally came home with a lesser damaged engine. The clay was just making sure the new higher lift-duration cam.
As they say, "I'd rather be lucky, than good, any day of the week."
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That's a bummer Jim
Got replacement valves laying about?
How many did you tweak?
The tramway is pretty cool.
jon
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Did not bend any. The piston was chasing the exhaust valves shut, and the cam chain tensioner released on the ramp, allowing the cam and valves to "stay out of the way". It was hard enough contact to push the tensioner spring, not hard enough to bend valves...but I had to be sure it was ok.
Because CP worked from my heads, they got the piston relief to valve angle exactly right. I had perfect oil imprints of the exhaust valves on the pistons but no damage. Its a good thing the battery was low and it wouldnt start!
Here we are again, another case of luck better than smart. :wink:
Thanks, Jon. The tramway is really fun. There is something fascinating about standing there pushing a button and watchng heavy loads roll down or up. I actually built the entire railway on the floor of the shop, upside down. I dragged it out and down over the bank, and then flipped it over into predug holes. Leveled on jackstands and wood blocks, it was easy to poor the concrete and let it set up. The wheels are standard commercial gate rollers (inexpensive and easy to replace). I have a piece of that pipe mounted in the attic of the shop, with one of these winches on two of those rollers above the pipe. I can lift stuff and roll it sideways with one hand, or pick things all the way onto the attic floor. Great for working on bike projects. I put the spare CBR600f3 roller up there, by myself.
JimL
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A couple pics from this build, to show the simple overhead winch I use (actually built to load stuff in the attic). A better setup for bike building would be to have about 8 feet of roll bar pipe from above the middle of the work bench, to a point over the build table. You could pick bike engines or whatever right straight onto the bench.
I have been using this, during the build, to lift one end or the other (or the whole bike) when taking various bits on and off. Its very handy when trying to change suspension height setup. When I picked the bike up in Colorado (with engine in it, fairing mounted, etc.), we simply hoisted it up in the air, backed my truck under it, and let it down into the bed. No ramps, no back strains, no problems.
Winch = $99 at Harbor Freight
Wheels = $20 a pair at fence supply
JimL
ps...you can see there is another one of these that lifts my Hobie Kayaks, complete on the rack, on and off my Tracker. Four bolts and we are headed for the lake.
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JimL;
Great idea!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Jim, thanks for all the info and giving our project a look over.
Oh, and the fire sleeve and the book and the offer of a trolley ride (I declined).
The tank got bumped to next week, I'm starting to get a little antsy.
Thanks again, Don
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Your welcome, and the tramway is certainly safe. I hauled down 28 loads of cement today with no problems (built the lower landing a and caisson that keeps the dirt bank from migratng into the landing area.)
Good news on this bike project; it ran through a half gallon of fuel without breaking. I am puzzled why the exhaust is so loud (on both bikes) since changing the camshafts. It is actually pretty painful.
Does anyone know why the exhaust would be much louder after going big on the cam?
Thanks, JimL
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The exhaust valve opens at a time when there is more pressure in the combustion chamber. Also, there is more mix being pulled in and being burned so the combustion event makes more pressure, too.
The old Triumphs had easily adjustable timing on each cam. Sometimes, if the exhaust was real loud, the tuner would change the lobe center timing a bit to keep the pressure in the cylinder for a longer period. This helped the power. This tuning by ear was explained to me in the early 1970's. Hopefully my memory is remembering it correctly.
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I do remember the multiple, seemingly random, slots in the cam gears and cams. I watched a friend set up my T120 cams with a degree wheel and dial indicators (used the JOMO 15B cams popular for flat track).
He always claimed it was Triumphs way of avoiding the need for accurate production machinng. Just give the mechanic enough choices to make it close enough, was his theory!
Thanks for the explanation. I thought I might have done something wrong, but I've been in and out of these engines enough times that I know they are set the only way they can run. Hopefully, this cam issue was the reason we didnt have much top end power the last few years.
Hope your preparations are moving along ok.
Jim
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Heres what the bike looks like for M-PF-650 (or M-PG-650). Starting issue is fixed by virtue of a CX500 starter. CBR600 shifter fit right onto the CX trans. Still have to put on numbers and letters, mod the belly pan for the shifter linkage clearance, and get cranking on fitting two bikes onto my crane trailer.
Regards, JimL
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The engine has about 500 miles on it and it is broken in. The jobs in early August are to change the cams, carbs, and mufflers, do the jetting on the dyno, pull all of the street stuff off and put the racing parts on, put on the giant Cascades Moto stickers, bring the bike up to Cascade Moto for an exhibit on the 17th of August, load up, and get to B'ville. Everything is on schedule and there are lots of things to do.
The injuries and death back east make me sad. They also tell me I need to double check things, build and develop incrementally over a long period, and be darn careful about everything. Bill's mishap is of special concern. He is someone I admire and my streamlining is working slowly toward his shape. The job next year is to enclose the bottom and the back. I hope this full partial streamlining is aerodynamically stable.
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Here is a pic of the bike ready for MPS class. The second pic shows my "streamlining parts supports" for both bikes. These hold the fairings (and for my orange bike, the tailpiece and front fender). This allows those parts to be bolted to the fender of our trailers, while on the salt flats, when running unstreamlined classes. I think this will be better than leaving the parts sitting loose in the pits, or trying to protect them in the back of a pickup with all the other stuff floating around.
Thats it for tonight. Tomorrow its time to get both bikes onto the floor and start modifying my trailer for the trip out.
Regards, JimL
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Pretty late loading up, this year. Last year was ready in May, but it has taken a while to finish this second bike. Now its time to start packing tools, equipment, spare parts... and do some mods to my spare 750 class engine in case one of these breaks.
This first pic is a pretty good testament to the difference between an A bike and an M bike, running the same engines. The second pic is a view of the other side of my trailer.
I had to raise the deck of the trailer, to fit these two "fat" bikes. That rear view is deceiving. The M bike is actually 1" wider than my A bike.
NOTE: I wont be towing them out to Bonneville with my old '62 Ford. That is a project for this winter, and I dont want to every take it on the salt!
JimL
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Here are a couple of pics showing my bike mounting method. This eliminates the slapping tie downs, slipping latches, and cut webbing. You cant get the bikes off the trailer with a box cutter in the night, either. :evil:
One addition, this year, is a rear "side steady" to take a little of the work off the two mount tabs. Probably not needed, but it keeps the rear of the bike from pumping up and down on bad roads or railroad crossings. I've hauled the A bike a lot of miles, over the last four years, relying on those two tabs; never had a problem of any kind.
The red bike has angle-iron guides, and center ramps for the base. This mount will be transferred to Dans low trailer. It will roll on and off that trailer with a shallow angle ramp. The tire guides help get it positioned for the tab bolts. A BIG positive for this arrangement, is that you only have to get one bolt in for the bike to be stable. Because the tires are between the rails, a single bolt keeps the bike vertical so that one person can go to the other side and rock the bike gently to slip the other bolt into place.
NOTE: I use 1/2" shouldered bolts, with a long shoulder ground to a taper, for those hold down tabs. This allows the smaller thread area to slip through a partially aligned hole. A 1/2" bushing is slipped over the taper area, after the bolt is fully seated. a flat washer followed by a Nylock nut completes the bolt down. The key point is using this tapered bolt method to prevent using too much force or physical strain when loading and securing the bike.
I still prefer the hoist method for my long, low A bike. It just seems so easy, compared to pushing up a ramp.
JimL
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Jim your bikes and set-ups are immaculate! I wish I could get to SCTA to see you run.
Tom
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Thanks, Tom, they are actually "20-foot" bikes. Anything closer and the warts start to show. The trailer is pretty rough, but I've been using the same one for the last 43 years. Fresh paint this year reduces the amount of ruined clothing caused by sitting on rust or splinters!
Regards, JimL
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I just realized I should add a note, here, for those following this thread. When it was time to remove the M bike from my roll around build table, I could not easily get it under my trailer crane arm. With the help of my son, I took a chance on that overhead winch you saw mounted in the attic of my shop. It was absolutely NO problem handling that M bike with the winch using a single snatch block. If a fellow used a 3:1 pulley reduction (and your rafters are strong enough; mine are double 2x6 in the winch area), you could probably pick up stuff sooo heavy... you could really scare yourself!
JimL
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Ray showed us a picture of your bike. It looks like you got there on time and in good shape. Keep us posted.
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All done, Bo, with three for the orange bike and one for this MPS bike. The red bike is hurt due to a water pump wire issue while trying for another record. It put in a nice 135+ in its MPS class. My orange whale had a pretty good result in APS-PF-650 with a gusty side wind down run at 148+ and a return run at 163.8. Best speed ever and not on my 750 engine. Hmmmm....
Anyway, we also bumped the A-PG and A-PF 650 records. Heading for home. Have a great BUB time!
JimL
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Now your showing some real serious speed :-) :-) :-)
When you have it all figured out the 500; 650; & 750 records are all in sight...........including the 180+ from Tom Mellor's Trident
How soft was the salt?
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My only comment regarding Jim is: TOTAL CLASS.
I was so happy to get to meet him..
FREUD
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Congratulations, Jim. It looks like you had a good meet.
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My only comment regarding Jim is: TOTAL CLASS.
I was so happy to get to meet him..
FREUD
Freud, you are correct and it is great to have him as a neighbor.
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Jim,
You've definitely raised the bar! I was thinking about bumping my motor up to 600cc by using the original long stroke crank for next year. Now I have to think about going gaining another 20 mph - - that will be quite a goal but will be fun chasing that Honda.
Tom