Landracing Forum

Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: TheSteelMan23 on October 23, 2011, 12:44:23 PM

Title: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: TheSteelMan23 on October 23, 2011, 12:44:23 PM
I am designing a streamliner build with two Small Block Chevy motors. They will be sitting nose to nose in the center of the car and then each one will be linked to the corresponding front or rear differential. My question is how do I link the motors together to ensure that they are turning equal RPM's? Are there any available gearboxes that anyone knows about or maybe a belt drive? Or is this something that I am going to have to get custom machined? Any ideas?
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Captthundarr on October 23, 2011, 12:54:27 PM
Neat idea, lots of custom machining in your future. As I see it the motors will have to be offset a little and a gear mounted to the snout of each crank. As one engine rotates the gears are meshed and the other engine will rotate in the opposite direction as needed. Belts or chains are out as they will not allow counter rotation.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: TheSteelMan23 on October 23, 2011, 01:03:02 PM
I really want to keep them inline, if I have to machine it I will have to have the in and out shafts inline and then reverse the rotation with a gear cluster off in the side of a box to reverse the rotation. Sort of a transfer case looking thing. I was really hoping that something was available though.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: RichFox on October 23, 2011, 01:45:44 PM
I believe that some of the twin engined cars built before are not linked. The ground is what links them together. Sort of like a train with more than one locomotive. Works for UP and should work for you. If I have failed to convince you of that, you could always look into running the forward engine with reverse rotation as is done on many boats. Then you could use commonly available couplers to link the engines.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: hotrod on October 23, 2011, 01:50:39 PM
The Burkland 411 streamliner has 2 chrysler hemis mounted nose to nose with one of them running reverse rotation, but I am not sure if they are coupled at the crankshaft snouts or if they are free to run independent of each other. You might want to talk to one of the folks that has worked on the 411 to get the details of how it is set up.

Larry
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Rex Schimmer on October 23, 2011, 02:17:30 PM
Check with MSD as I hear that they have an ignition system that will keep both engines running at the same speed and as Rich says they are linked by the ground. I would think that if you could get them close via the ignition control then the ground link would take care of the rest.

Rex

Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: TheSteelMan23 on October 23, 2011, 02:44:35 PM
Thanks for all the ideas, it definitely gives me some things to ponder. My two reasons for wanting to link them is concern for what the car would do if one end got a large amount of wheel spin independent of the other and also how bad it would probably get if you had a single engine failure. I originally was going to couple the two and run RWD only, but I think it is best to run AWD if I can.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: revolutionary on October 23, 2011, 06:29:47 PM
If it were me, I'd probably get two cranks with BBC snouts that were double keyed and just make a dampened coupler to join them. You could also do it with two coupler ends joined with a u-joint.  Basically making it a v16. Cams are easy to find in reverse rotation cores. Nothing too crazy.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Glen on October 23, 2011, 08:52:07 PM
From a safety standpoint I think two engines coupled like you plan could be a major problem if one engine fails and locks up the other would more then likely fail as well and what happens to the drive train.Best to talk to Tom Burkland regarding what they have.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: SPARKY on October 23, 2011, 10:19:15 PM
I would run them as 2 seperate systems---and in light of what Glen said  I would not think of running them with out the ability for them to FREEWHEEL if something happens to one of the other  :-o
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Vinsky on October 24, 2011, 12:51:46 AM
   
If you have been following the Marlo Treit's Liner build, there are lots of good ideas there that could be applied to twin engined liners.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on October 24, 2011, 10:10:55 AM
If you don't couple them then you have the problem of running out of sync with each other and the difference in sync can cause major harmonic difficulties.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: ChrisLenahan on October 24, 2011, 12:26:04 PM
I would think that two engines running in reverse rotation would create a lot of stress on any connection between them due to torque. Even if the engines are solid mounted to the frame there will be some flex as the engines try to rotate in opposite directions.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Captthundarr on October 24, 2011, 02:17:12 PM
I would think that two engines running in reverse rotation would create a lot of stress on any connection between them due to torque. Even if the engines are solid mounted to the frame there will be some flex as the engines try to rotate in opposite directions.

Clairifing :one engine running in normal rotation . the one facing backwards would be running in reverse rotation. ie both turning in the same direction
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: TheSteelMan23 on October 24, 2011, 02:34:21 PM
Well I guess I will ask the question... What are the common setups used in a multiple engine AWD liner? Or is there no such thing as a common setup?
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: JimL on October 24, 2011, 11:52:58 PM
FYI, go to this link, to the bottom of the page, and click on the video line.  It takes quite a while to load, be patient.  This is two engines connected by gear drive, no load, and it self destructs.  This thing shelled the gears and broke an engine block at less than 5000 RPM.  You'll hear the gear noise start clanking, and then both engines are running out of phase as the front engine starts to break up internally.

I will never again try to hook two engines together by gear, and I probably won't try any kind of coupler that would allow uneven crankshaft acceleration during firing.  I'll be using a solid crank arrangement with two blocks joined....but I only have 2 cylinders per engine.

I still don't know a good answer. It seems like some good setups do the coupling after all the driveline stuff has started smoothing out the power pulses. Definitely beyond my ability.

http://home.earthlink.net/~leinfam/id2.html

Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: RichFox on October 25, 2011, 12:01:40 AM
I don't believe MTs old twin Chrysler had the engines connected or the 4 Pontiac except the front drive engines connected and the rear drive engines but not front to rear drive. The B&N "Rinosorous" was for sure not connected. I think Burklands is connected by drive belt to a shaft running along side the engines. Maybe not.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: TheSteelMan23 on October 25, 2011, 07:09:30 AM
FYI, go to this link, to the bottom of the page, and click on the video line.  It takes quite a while to load, be patient.  This is two engines connected by gear drive, no load, and it self destructs.  This thing shelled the gears and broke an engine block at less than 5000 RPM.  You'll hear the gear noise start clanking, and then both engines are running out of phase as the front engine starts to break up internally.

I will never again try to hook two engines together by gear, and I probably won't try any kind of coupler that would allow uneven crankshaft acceleration during firing.  I'll be using a solid crank arrangement with two blocks joined....but I only have 2 cylinders per engine.

I still don't know a good answer. It seems like some good setups do the coupling after all the driveline stuff has started smoothing out the power pulses. Definitely beyond my ability.

http://home.earthlink.net/~leinfam/id2.html



It's a shame that setup didn't live long, it was great looking work. It sounds like the best way to link them are by rotating one in reverse and coupling them at the snouts. I got some good advice from people that are very familiar with this. The gear drives seem to eat themselves alive, as you unfortunately found out. Love the CB by the way, reminds me of my BSA Super Rocket
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: SPARKY on October 25, 2011, 07:51:39 AM
RF, your comparison to the trains is good--two independent engs in the same frame---in my opinion, one of them could be not running, idling, not in gear,---the other eng is still going to be doing all it can do---the accleration rate and the top speed will be less :cry:   there have been lots of engs coupled as well as all kinds of ways to couple them  YMMV
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Interested Observer on October 25, 2011, 09:05:28 AM
Why would you want to mechanically connect the two engines in the first place?  In this day and age, controlling the two rpm rates electronically would seem to make a lot more sense, eliminate a doomed mechanical element, and allow a variable and probably desirable bias front to rear in the wheelspeeds. 
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: RichFox on October 25, 2011, 11:34:45 AM
RF, your comparison to the trains is good--two independent engs in the same frame---in my opinion, one of them could be not running, idling, not in gear,---the other eng is still going to be doing all it can do---the accleration rate and the top speed will be less :cry:   there have been lots of engs coupled as well as all kinds of ways to couple them  YMMV
Same thing on much of the heavy equipment used in dirt work. Scrapers have had separate engines front and rear for around 50 years. Seems to work for them. Who remembers the very large  autoclave that passed Wendover some years ago with one very large tractor pulling it and two normal size pushing? The whole idea of needing to insure the engines are  producing the same power is wrong. The ground will keep the rpms the same unless there is some highly unusual occurrence. Iveo's 4 Buick dragster had two engines driving the front and two driving the rear. It would smoke the front tires for the full quarter but could not break the rears loose. Due to weight transfer. Still it made lots and lots of passes. Not a problem.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Dynoroom on October 25, 2011, 12:11:17 PM
The first picture is Mickey Thompson's original Challenger Pontiac drive setup.
The 2nd & 3rd are of the Motion 1 that had no connection between the engines at all.
The last shot is the coupling of the Buick's in Ivo's 4 engine car.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: RichFox on October 25, 2011, 12:30:22 PM
Mike. I see the two engines chained togeather but were the front and rear engines coupled? So that all four were coupled I think like a pulling tractor.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Dynoroom on October 25, 2011, 12:36:47 PM
On Ivo's or Thompson's? I think one side pair ran the front driveline and the other side ran the rear driveline in Ivo's application. Thompson might have driven all four engines with his quick change setup. Anyone?
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Glen on October 25, 2011, 02:16:39 PM
Thompson's car 4 engines, 4 transmissions and 4 quick changes. the 2 front engines drove thru the 2 transmissions and quick changes as did the rear set up,There was a axle between the QC's and each axle at the drive wheel had a over drive gear box. All transmissions were shifted at one time thru a network of linkages. The front and rear engines faced each other nose to nose and not coupled as they had the blower drives to contend with as well. A lot of monkey motion in that car as was the Summers Bros and other multi engine vehicles. It ain't easy to make it all work. It was a home built masterpiece for sure.

I think with a little google research you will find a lot of info. On top of all of that Mickey was an honor to know, a real seat of the pants hot rodder and driver. Like Steve Jobs his head was always full of ideas and plans.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: 55chevr on October 25, 2011, 05:24:03 PM
Glen would know the Challenger deal.  I am sure he was there.  I do recall that the Ivo-s set up was each side coupled nose to tail and then drove an axle. One faced front and the other faced rear. If I recall the HRM article back in the 60-s.   
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: John Burk on October 25, 2011, 10:07:54 PM
Thompson tested the Challenger at a drag strip . I remember reading before hand they decided if  it spun the safest thing was to go to full throttle and let it spin harmlessly to a stop . It did spin and Mickey stayed with the plan and saved it .
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Tman on October 26, 2011, 11:30:45 AM
Thompson tested the Challenger at a drag strip . I remember reading before hand they decided if  it spun the safest thing was to go to full throttle and let it spin harmlessly to a stop . It did spin and Mickey stayed with the plan and saved it .

And there is a few photos of the tires after the spin, major carnage but they held up considering.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Jack Gifford on October 27, 2011, 12:04:56 AM
Thompson tested the Challenger at a drag strip ...
I would have said that it was at March AFB; but then again, my memory ain't the greatest...
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Mr411Fan on October 27, 2011, 08:06:52 AM
I'm not versed on the deep technical aspects of the Burkland setup, but it gave virtually no trouble during all the runs the car made.  One engine had a special cam/crank for running backwards.  The engines were connected via a special coupler/shaft arrangment, essentially having them act as one V-16 with ablility to transfer power out each end.  Putting the pinion in the differentials on opposite sides allows forward motion on the front and rear axles. I remember Tom pointing to the shaft in between the engines "floating" when the engines were both "happy" and in sync.  Yes, if one engine has a problem it will drag the other down, but it's no different that one big V-16 running clutches/transmissions out each end.  I would contact Tom for details.  It was a very reliable setup that never failed as far as I remember.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Mr411Fan on October 27, 2011, 11:51:06 PM
Correction, I should have said ring gear on the opposite side of the pinion.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Bob Drury on October 28, 2011, 12:41:14 AM
  As strange as this sounds, If my memory is correct Tommy Ivo's twin engine Buick powered dragster ran with the flywheels intermeshed, or maybe I am having another flashback..........
                                                            Bob
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Peter Jack on October 28, 2011, 03:28:13 AM
I have the same memory Bob, and my memory's only slightly older than yours. I'm sure we're right! :-D :-D :roll:

Pete
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Graham in Aus on October 28, 2011, 04:10:33 AM
It's a long thread, but this guy:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=533613

Has joined two via the flywheel starter ring gears!

Lots of info here!

Cheers  :cheers:
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: desotoman on October 28, 2011, 03:20:55 PM
 As strange as this sounds, If my memory is correct Tommy Ivo's twin engine Buick powered dragster ran with the flywheels intermeshed, or maybe I am having another flashback..........
                                                            Bob

I don't know about Ivo's car, but I do know the Twin Bears Howard's car was that way.

Tom G.

Photo courtesy of Hot Rod Magazine.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: John Burk on October 28, 2011, 03:21:25 PM
Photos at the link below of what they say are the 1st 10 twin engine drag cars . Goggling "TwoToGo" there is also page 2 and 3 .


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%22twotogo%22%20first%20ten&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwotogo.homestead.com%2FTwoToGopageone.html&ei=-_yqTubDJcfr0gH_xIGDDw&usg=AFQjCNEJ6FR1HoGi35LABFYF8BxGWzRPYA&cad=rja
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: RichFox on October 28, 2011, 05:44:53 PM
It's been a long time, but as I remember the Hayward Head Hunters car it had Cadalic engines. And of course I remember the Bustle Bomb as having a Flathead in front and a Chevy six in back.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Glen on October 28, 2011, 06:34:44 PM
John, thats a great web site of two to go cars.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on October 28, 2011, 08:04:46 PM
  As strange as this sounds, If my memory is correct Tommy Ivo's twin engine Buick powered dragster ran with the flywheels intermeshed, or maybe I am having another flashback..........
                                                            Bob

I don't know about Ivo's car, but I do know the Twin Bears Howard's car was that way.

Tom G.

Photo courtesy of Hot Rod Magazine.

Howard's Cams Twin Bears Digger - Twin Bears - Hot Rods
 
Avoiding one major hassle of re-creating the car was that Donnie still had the coupler to mount a flywheel to the front of the lefthand small-block, which is turned around backward. The engines mesh together at this point, and a clutch is attached to the right-side engine.


Check out the picture here: http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_1008_howards_cams_twin_bears_digger/photo_08.html#ixzz1c7lClxxg (http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_1008_howards_cams_twin_bears_digger/photo_08.html#ixzz1c7lClxxg)

Crazy stuff!   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Kato Engineering on October 28, 2011, 10:51:40 PM
It is well documented that IVO had a side by side dual where one was blown and the other was injected.
obviously the injected unit was the reverse rotation engine setup
they were positioned "normal " and coupled at the flywheels.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: BHR301 on October 28, 2011, 11:09:39 PM
Kato Engineering..Not sure where you got your information but the Ivo twin was injected only, none of his multiple engined cars were blown.

Bill
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Kato Engineering on October 29, 2011, 02:14:20 AM
should have seperated the two statements..

it is well documented that Ivo had the side by side car.

..........

I do remember seeing a photo on another site of a side by side that one was blown and other was injected..

it might have been on H.a.m.b.
 maybe stan fox remembers this  posting  from a couple of years ago
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: John Burk on October 29, 2011, 02:43:37 AM
In the early 1960s a guy from NJ put together a street roadster with a pair of stock 327s mounted one behind the other . It ran 138 at the drags and he drove it to and from the strip .
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 30, 2011, 11:59:10 PM
The Herbert-Steen 4 engine liner has a reverser box in the middle between # 2 & 3 engines. The front two engines face rearward & the rear two engines face forward with a B&J & a clutch at each end. The system worked well with 2100 cu in making 6000hp.
 Sid.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: SPARKY on October 31, 2011, 09:46:57 AM
if that thing had 6000 hp and it worked well what was the problem  :?
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: TheSteelMan23 on October 31, 2011, 01:57:57 PM
"Roy Steen built and installed one of these in the Herbert-Steen four engined big block Chevy powered car with very mixed results. It would build heat quickly due to the internal friction of the rapidly cycling torsional loads and experienced numerous failures of the gears, bearings, and shafts."

This is some information that I was given on the Herbert-Steen setup. I haven't seen it and don't know about it but it does make quite a bit of sense to me now that it has been brought to my attention. Now I am up in the air as to whether I should build a AWD system that is not linked or whether I should build a two engined RWD setup. I do not have the budget to counter rotate one of the motors or to build a system to tie them together counter rotating.

Any Suggestions?
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 31, 2011, 03:23:18 PM
Sparky, the only problem the car has is a partnership problem. Now that Chet is gone nothing has changed, his part has gone to Doug & he has what appears to be another failing partnership in another liner project.
The car has never had big block Chevy engines in it. They are 525 inch Rodeck's with special high port heads. It was initially built with dominator carbs but in 91 when I started working on it, we changed it over to Hilborn units & also stretched it to accommodate the 7 speed B&J's. The Rodeck's made just over 1500hp each on the dyno at that time.
Steelman, the only real advantage to counter-rotating engines is that the chassis won't torque load one side & if you dont have machining capabilities you might not want to go there.
If you are in my neck of the woods, you are welcome to come & check out my liner build. It's a real low budget 4WD car, using lots off the shelf & junk yard parts. It's 35" wide, 31" tall & 43ft long, built to accommodate two engines but I only have one 605 inch turbo'd KB600 in there now. I'm in SE Idaho about 45 miles north of the Utah state line.
  Sid.
 
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 31, 2011, 11:00:06 PM
Steelman, looks like you'll need to pack an extra sandwich if you're going to stop buy. I'll send a reply to your pm with contact info.
  Sid.
Title: Re: How do I link 2 engines rotating in reverse?
Post by: Kato Engineering on December 18, 2011, 09:40:16 PM
back in OCT,28,2011
Mr.  "BHR301 stated that mister IVO did not have a side by side that had one blown and one standard rotation engine..

well, there are a number of photos of both of his side by side cars in "LIONS ...the greatest dragstrip" part three...