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Author Topic: The worlds fastest Weslake.....well maybe!  (Read 48026 times)
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2010, 11:13:25 PM »

Briz, decades ago I did almost exactly what you are doing with that primary sprocket or pulley.  This is what I learned.  The hard way.

It is very important to locate an original sprocket, washer, nut, and nut torque specs.  The sprocket can be worn out.  This is not a problem.  Carefully note how the engine side of the sprocket seats on the shaft.  Look at the washer type and how everything seats on the outside of the sprocket when the nut is tightened down.

This is critical.  The friction between the engine side of the sprocket and the seat, when the nut is fully tightened, conveys a significant portion of the rotating torque from the crank to the sprocket.  In some cases, all of the torque.  This takes a big torque load off of the splines.

This experience taught me to pay a lot of attention to all aspects of the sprocket.  Assuming the sprocket center section is OK, it may be cost effective to remove the teeth and to weld on a pulley.

This might not apply exactly to your situation.  It is simply something I learned years ago on a Matchless.
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Briz
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« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2010, 06:35:30 AM »

Wouldn't really apply here WW. The spline is one that Weslake invented for themselves I think. No chance at all of finding an original sprocket, even if they made any in the first place.
Mick Butler who drag-raced one told me that he had a special one made.
The whole thing is so beefy that I doubt there'd be any problem anyway. Theres certainly a lot more meat there than on a HD big twin.
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Rex Schimmer
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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2010, 12:04:31 PM »

 Looking at the pic of the output shaft it looks like the spline is a square tooth spline, i.e. the shaft was made by using a horizontal cutter with the shaft mounted in an index head and each spline was individually machined and it appears that the cutter was square not involute so you could possibly make a sprocket with a milling machine and an index table. You would have to design the sprocket to pilot on the ID of the shaft not the OD but if the splines are square making a sprocket should be pretty straight forward.

Rex
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Briz
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« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2010, 02:57:09 PM »

Thats pretty much what I've done Rex.
Made a trip down to Gloucester last Friday to see Dave Perry at Antig. One of only a few with knowledge about these engines. Helpful bloke; actually had an engine sprocket to fit, so I grabbed it.


However.... I'm not going to use it now!
Reason being that its nothing like what I need - the pulley needs a huge amount of spacing away from the engine to line up, so I spent Monday machining these bits:

The main adapter is EN16T. I milled the splines in the rotary table. It locates on the minor diameter of the crank spline.

Next thing is to make a support plate that'll bolt up to the engine & box and carry bearings directly behind both pulleys.
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Rex Schimmer
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2010, 11:47:55 PM »

Briz,
You might want to consider an extra bearing to hold up the out side of the pulley, you have plenty of over hang.

Rex
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JimL
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« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2010, 12:19:42 AM »

This is REALLY interesting because I still daydream of making a twin engine coupling.  One fellow told me to use "well over" 180 degree belt wrap to take a lot of the side load out of the shaft and bearings.  Ever heard of that?  I suppose it puts some of the thrust or pull loads into the bearing of an idler (he said some systems have idlers at both ends, to protect shafts and bearings).  I've not run across any reasonable cost sealed bearings that can tolerate 10-12000 RPM, though I guess if the bearing idler was big enough, it would help.  I've noticed on production cars that the bigger the belt loads (multi-rib accessory drive), the bigger the idler or tensioner pulley diameters....probably for the same reasons.  On the stuff with very high load alternators, they now have one-way clutches in the pulley, to prevent overrun loads on the accessory drive (due to high inertia in the heavier armatures during frequent upshifts with rapid engine RPM reduction).

I miss points, condensors, generators, and hand chokes. sad
JimL
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willybuilt
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« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2010, 05:36:31 AM »

Hello Briz,

I have a DOHC Weslake the same as yours, I have engine # 1 of 6 built ( eng # J-101) with the only gearbox that was made. The bike has never been started. The man behind building the DOHC Weslakes was Ron Jones. The engine were built by Brian Valentine of BVR, son of Ron Valentine who designed the Weslake speedway engine.
What engine number is yours, I have only heard of 2 or 3 other engines.
Regards
Alan
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Briz
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« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2010, 06:55:19 AM »

Hi Alan. I've been trying to get in touch with you! You're in OZ, right?
You have the ex- Peter Toogood project? The one at the bottom in this page:
http://toogood.org/pages/motorcycles.htm
How is the project progressing? Looked an intersting build.
Mine is number 5 (J105)
Number 4 was built into a featherbed frame with a HD 4-speed in the late '80s by Alan White. Featured in a magazine. Not been able to get in touch with him yet.
I now have a heap of info about the origins and the history, but not much technical data other than the basics.
Did you get any such data with yours? I understand there was a good deal of paperwork that went along with the no. 1 project.

Rex; you're right, theres a lot of overhang which will be addressed. Because of the engines RPM potential (Dave Perry reckons they'll live at 10K) -and this relates to what JimL mentions- bearing speed is a concern, I'm going to have to use a 60mm ID bearing behind the front pulley, but most have a limit of about 7500rpm, Its only narrow 78mm OD ones which will go to 11000rpm. So I'll likely use a pair of these (at $40 each rolleyes)
I guess the smaller the difference between the inner & outer bearing track dia, the more rpms they'll handle.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 07:00:09 AM by Briz » Logged

thefrenchowl
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« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2010, 08:44:51 AM »

Hi Briz,

Only asking, don't shoot me straighaway!!!

Would it not be better if your pulley bearing is as far as possible from the crank drive bearing, inside the nose of the pulley, similar to what Sumo's doing on his twin Panther?

I suppose you're using a rather modern H-D tranny, hence the overhang where the alternator would be located?

Could you not reduce the drive overhang by shortening the clutch gear on the tranny? A 60mm ID bearing will surely eat a lot of power?

Patrick
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 08:48:03 AM by thefrenchowl » Logged

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Rex Schimmer
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« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2010, 10:49:33 AM »

Briz,
You don't need a very large bearing for the outside support, certainly nothing in the 60 mm size. You might consider remaking your retaining nut/sleeve such that it extends outside of the belt pulley and then make the shaft a standard bearing bore dia, say 25 mm and have the support bearing on this extended shaft. You would want to make sure that you have a good pilot diameter where it engages your spline adapter as I don't like to have shafts pilot on threads. Just a thought. Love your spline adapter.

Rex
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Rex Schimmer
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« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2010, 11:02:08 AM »

Briz,
Looking at your lash up I may be missing your thinking regarding an outer support bearing. Are you thinking about having the bearing around your extension shaft? This does look like it would require a large bearing. Most bearings are rated at maximum continuous speed and your application is really pretty intermittent. Probably calling one of the bearing companies would get you an engineer that could tell you if a 60mm bearing would live in your application.

Rex
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Briz
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« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2010, 02:32:59 PM »

Rex - you're right. I'm going to make a plate which will go directly behind the clutch / engine pulley. This is similar to what is used on aftermarket HD belt drive kits.
Since HD primarys have a bearing between the clutch and the rear drive sprocket it makes sense to do it this way. Especially since I'm going to have a electric start which will need such a plate for support.
I'll ask my local bearing suppliers about what you mentioned.

Frenchowl; the overhang isn't so much the result of there being no alternator, but more because thats how the dimensions stack up. With a 180 rear tyre the gearbox has to be in a set place. There isn't any scope for moving anything inboard except the possible use of Baker Drivetrains DSCC right-side drive transmission which moves the whole clutch assembly a couple of inches inboard and has the output on the right.  Unfortunately, these trannys go for megabucks and are probably not transplantable into the FXR case.
The only other option is to offset the engine, but this would unbalance the bike.
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thefrenchowl
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« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2010, 03:18:42 PM »

Hi Briz,

Had a look at my SKF catalogue, surprising!!!

The 60 x 78 x 10 you're looking at, ball bearing ref 61812, is rated at 9000 rpm, good for 8710 Newton dynamic.

I use usually the 25 x 52 x 15 ball bearing ref 6205 in me H-D cranks, that's rated 12000rpm and 14000 Newton dynamic, so the load doesn't increase necesserally with the size...

I also use, same place, a single lip roller bearing, same dimms, 25 x 52 x 15 ref N205, that is 11000rpm and 16800 Newton dynamic.

You would have to go for a 60 x 95 x 11 ball bearing, ref 16012, to get to 19900 Newton dynamic but revs fall to 8000rpm...

That's for open bearings. If you add oil seals, the speed goes down again...

Patrick
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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2011, 02:43:31 PM »

No physical progress; still working thru customer stuff, but I just had a very interesting conversation with Ron Jones, who was heavily involved in the weslake V-twin project. His firm supplied a lot of the hard parts that went into the engine; fronted the dough to have the crank-forging dies made and was responsible for the castings.
Amazingly the whole saga isn't over yet and theres still stuff in the wings, so to speak.
But the most unexpected aspect is that this engine I have here is basically a forerunner of the now defunct Excelsior-Henderson X-twin of the nineties. The Hanlon bros. (of E-H) bought the patterns etc, but the original development was done in England.
From a dark corner of the E-H website:
http://www.excelsiorhenderson.com/ehwebsite/photo/index.php?album=eh-company-archives/weslake-engine-co.-england
Transitional castings modded to accept starter etc:

Completed drivetrain; obviously a lot of changes happened before the bike went into production:
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Briz
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« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2011, 06:01:43 PM »

OK! some progress.
We have ourselves a drivetrain, a charging system and a crank-trigger ignition
Believe it or not, you're looking at over a weeks work to get this far.... rolleyes


The ignition triggers are 2 Ford Fiesta crank sensors (only one shown) mounted 50 degrees apart with a one-tooth rotor (turned from 4" dia solid bar!) keyed  onto the pulley extension.
Half a day was spent naffing about trying to make 2 Mondeo Duratek sensors work. They didn't!
Went with the 2x 78mm OD bearings behind the crank pulley. Machined the plate to the FXR's 11.3125" centres and was relieved to find it slipped over the 2 shafts perfectly!
Pythagarus and careful measurements wins the day!
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