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Author Topic: Single front wheel steering  (Read 22919 times)

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Offline Fred

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Single front wheel steering
« on: November 24, 2009, 06:20:27 PM »
I see some streamliners and motorcycles use of fixed axle steering through the wheel hub, I assume there is a bearing and pin assembly in it? Is there any information on this type of design out there or even a company or person who makes it for sale?

Thanks - Fred :?

Offline willieworld

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 06:43:40 PM »
fred you might ask kent  1212fgbs  he told me that he had plans for a hub center steer   willie buchta
willie-dpombatmir-buchta

Offline Fred

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2009, 11:44:48 AM »
Hi Willie,

Thanks for the reply, since I am new at this chat stuff would you mind suggesting how to contact Kent 1212fgbs?

Fred

Offline Freud

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 12:05:30 PM »
Try this website to reach Kent:

    http://www.motobody.com

FREUD
Since '63

Offline Blue

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 12:46:13 AM »
We had a "focusing link" on the Breedlove/Fossett car.  By adjusting the mounting points of the linkage, fully adjustable roll and trail were possible.  Contact me for a link to the designer of the last itteration.
"Doing the same thing as everyone else insures the same result", Shawn Fischer
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Offline F104A

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2009, 10:15:33 PM »
We designed and built our own system and it works quite well.
Ed

Offline Blue

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 11:42:18 AM »
We had a "focusing link" on the Breedlove/Fossett car.  By adjusting the mounting points of the linkage, fully adjustable roll and trail were possible.  Contact me for a link to the designer of the last itteration.
http://www.rotaryeng.net/roadable.html

A very good explanation of the focusing link and how it works.  For a dual tire front axle, the vertical links need to be angled to focus at the ground or above it.  The side links point at the pivot point, and the distance between this “focal point” and the tire contact patch is the effective trail.

The real question is whether the links could be attached to a frame for two wheels in-line.  Would effective trail be measured against the center between the two contact patches?
"Doing the same thing as everyone else insures the same result", Shawn Fischer
"Extraordinary ideas do not come from ordinary thinking", Dan Bond
"Don't compromise, optimize", Eric Ahlstrom

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2010, 10:05:43 AM »
I don't see why it couldn't be used on a 2 wheeled machine. It can be set up to achieve the same steering motion that the front wheel on a motorcycle sees. Seems to me that effective trail would be measured by locking the frame down rigid and swinging the steering through it's motion. The radius of the contact patch arc is the trail. Figuring out effective rake may be a trick, but it seems that rake in and of itself is not the most important issue as far as stability is concerned, as least if you believe Tony Foale.  http://www.tonyfoale.com/

http://www.rotaryeng.net/roadable.html

A very good explanation of the focusing link and how it works.  For a dual tire front axle, the vertical links need to be angled to focus at the ground or above it.  The side links point at the pivot point, and the distance between this “focal point” and the tire contact patch is the effective trail.

The real question is whether the links could be attached to a frame for two wheels in-line.  Would effective trail be measured against the center between the two contact patches?
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Offline bak189

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2010, 11:02:53 AM »
We have been making/building Hub-Centres for both solo M/C's and sidecars for many years............
You have to fully understand what it is all about..........and make it fully adjustable for the various
surface and track and/or street conditions..........if done properly it is the "only way to go" in both sollo's and sidecars..............
 










Question authority.....always

Offline Blue

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2010, 03:59:58 PM »
We have been making/building Hub-Centres for both solo M/C's and sidecars for many years............
You have to fully understand what it is all about..........and make it fully adjustable for the various
surface and track and/or street conditions..........if done properly it is the "only way to go" in both sollo's and sidecars..............
I've seen hub center setups at a distance for years, but never got close enough to one to understand how they work.  I've always thought they were very clever, and wondered about the forces on the hub (small focal point, high moment) vs. the focusing link (wide spaced pivot points, low moments).  Are there pictures, and how is trail (caster) created with the hub at the center; how is bump steer avoided in single-side systems, how do we deal with stiction in the center hub, etc.?

One big disadvantage/advantage of the focusing link is that high steering angles compress the suspension.  This adds "virtual trail" sprung and damped by the suspension (usually coil-over-shocks).  Great for LSR, not so great for a road racer or in the pits.
"Doing the same thing as everyone else insures the same result", Shawn Fischer
"Extraordinary ideas do not come from ordinary thinking", Dan Bond
"Don't compromise, optimize", Eric Ahlstrom

Offline willieworld

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2010, 07:17:07 PM »
Eric  from the diagram i cant figure how the focusing link works could you show a better diagram---i hope im not the only one , if i am please dont tell anyone  thanks   ============willie buchta



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=hub+center+steering&aq=0&oq=hub+center+steer&aqi=g1g-m2
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 08:50:58 PM by willieworld »
willie-dpombatmir-buchta

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2010, 07:26:44 PM »
That makes two of us Willie. :-(

Pete

Offline Blue

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2010, 02:15:38 PM »
Eric  from the diagram i cant figure how the focusing link works could you show a better diagram---i hope im not the only one , if i am please dont tell anyone  thanks   ============willie buchta
It's not completely intuitive, the guys who made the one for Sonic Arrow missed the fact that they set it up to be unstable in both trail and roll.

Look at it in plan view (from the top) and trace the angle of the side tie rods.  As we push the back of the swing arm left or right, the whole assembly rotates around a virtual pivot point that is where the two arms are pointing in space.  The arms should be set up so they point forward of the tire contact patch, the distance between that point and the contact patch is the amount of trail.  This should be at least 4" and 5% of wheelbase on vehicles longer than 100" for LSR.

Looking at it from the front, the vertical arms control the amount of roll.  If the arms are vertical, the tire will roll like a motorcycle fork.  For flat tires on 3 wheel vehicles, this is unstable.  Inclining the vertical arms to form a "V" with the focal point at ground level creates zero roll and a slight proverse roll at high steering angles.

Done correctly, there is little load on the arms and lots of load on the shocks.
"Doing the same thing as everyone else insures the same result", Shawn Fischer
"Extraordinary ideas do not come from ordinary thinking", Dan Bond
"Don't compromise, optimize", Eric Ahlstrom

Offline ack

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 03:19:52 PM »
Center hub

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Single front wheel steering
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 06:03:12 PM »
Fred
i have a few different designs including one that Mike made for me and a couple Vesco center hubs.... Mike can make one for you as well as Fred Hayes who drew programs for the Vesco hubs.... i also have a Bimota hub that is kinda neat but pretty wimpy for 300mph.... I also have a king pin style that is on the Breese liner..... what are your plans?
Kent