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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 505548 times)
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2865 on: August 30, 2017, 10:06:14 AM »

We got up at 4:00 PST and got in line at land's end.  It was still fairly dark when the bike was set up and we went to pre-stage right after the rider's meeting at 7:00.  The first and only run was around noon.  It was a rough track that turned real soft and rutted during the flying mile.  The engine was revved till the needle hit the peg and the rev limiter kicked in at the top end of fourth and then I shifted into fifth.  I did this a few times.  It would not top out in fifth.  The bike did well handling wise until decel when it went into a tank slapper.

A last minute switch to FIM did not give me enough time to rebuild the tail to the new FIM rules.  I left it off and used the stock seat instead.  This raised my head 3 inches.  Plus, the aero was really hurt without the tail.  Weight distribution was too front heavy and this caused the decal speed wobble.  The bike was seat up bad.  "Run it naked" was Tom Mellor's advice.  I was pretty used up by being in leathers on a hot day for six hours so working on the bike was out of the picture.

The 145 I ran was less than my lifetime best of 146.  We packed up and left.  There was nothing I could do to make the bike faster and the track would not get better was my guess.  This year I will retime the cams to bring the power peak down a thousand rpm, rebuild the tail, make triple clamps with 2mm less offset, and have some high compression pistons made.  This is a "development year" as they say and I now know about a streamlining setup that definitely does not work.  A record run in 2018 is the goal. 
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« Reply #2866 on: August 30, 2017, 03:29:58 PM »

Wobbly, plan your work and work your plan!  cheers cheers cheers
As you have discovered, the battle plan changes as soon as you engage the enemy!  angry shocked grin
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2867 on: August 30, 2017, 10:10:01 PM »

The suspension is setup right, that is for sure.  It was a good meet.  They did the best they could with the track.  The salt was thin.  A problem with this is that if it is overworked with drags and sledges to try to get it smooth, it breaks apart and becomes a total mess.  A lot of fast times were set and records broken so it was not a bad handicap for those who knew how to deal with it.

We took the day off and went exploring.  Gretchen wanted to see the Rocky Mountains.  Most all in the vicinity have Basin and Range geology.  The closest Rocky Mountains I know about are the Sawtooth in Utah north of Wendover.  We drove west on I-80 to Oasis and then went north through Montello to Rosette in Utah.  At Rosette we drove west up to Dove Springs Pass.  We climbed up a knob to the north of the pass, looked around and then walked back down.  Then Gretchen decided to climb to the top of Marble Canyon Peak to the south.  Gretchen is 20. Wobbly is considerably more vintage.  Eventually I got to the top.  There are outcrops of pure white marble.  It is definitely a part of the Rockies.       
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Frank06
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« Reply #2868 on: August 31, 2017, 01:02:07 AM »

The suspension is setup right, that is for sure.  It was a good meet.  They did the best they could with the track.  The salt was thin.  A problem with this is that if it is overworked with drags and sledges to try to get it smooth, it breaks apart and becomes a total mess.  A lot of fast times were set and records broken so it was not a bad handicap for those who knew how to deal with it.

We took the day off and went exploring.  Gretchen wanted to see the Rocky Mountains.  Most all in the vicinity have Basin and Range geology.  The closest Rocky Mountains I know about are the Sawtooth in Utah north of Wendover.  We drove west on I-80 to Oasis and then went north through Montello to Rosette in Utah.  At Rosette we drove west up to Dove Springs Pass.  We climbed up a knob to the north of the pass, looked around and then walked back down.  Then Gretchen decided to climb to the top of Marble Canyon Peak to the south.  Gretchen is 20. Wobbly is considerably more vintage.  Eventually I got to the top.  There are outcrops of pure white marble.  It is definitely a part of the Rockies.     
WW: I talked to your daughter briefly when you were at tech but by the time I had a chance to drop by to meet you, Tom told me that you had already left.  I wanted to admire your bike up close; maybe next time!  Good luck with the mods.  Frank

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2869 on: September 03, 2017, 11:25:11 PM »

Hi Frank.  We took Weds off to go exploring and I went back on Thurs to take pictures and socialize.  What bike are you running?  I may have talked to you and both of us did not know it.

A few talks with folks supposedly familiar with course prep give opposite answers.  One side of the spectrum is "the salt is thin and too much effort spent to groom it will cause the drag to break through and create a total mess."  The other is "the salt is thicker than normal and so hard that the drag skip over the dips and cannot make the track smooth."  Who knows?  What I saw and felt was similar to others and it was a hard and bumpy track with a soft spot on the middle.  As per experience running there for ten years, the track was rougher than I have ever ridden on.  One year the track we as soft so I had seen this before.  It was hotter than I remember.

As per suspension setup, a person riding a rigid bike needs to look at Royal Enfield's frames over the years.  The way they did their suspension combines the low ride height os a rigid frame with decent suspension offers by a swinging arm.   

 
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2870 on: September 04, 2017, 11:19:37 PM »

Wave action analysis with a stepped header, collector, and muffler is not done by the Dynomation 5 computer program I am using.  Is there another computer program that does this?
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« Reply #2871 on: September 05, 2017, 08:22:57 AM »

Bo, I was helping out with KillaJoule.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

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« Reply #2872 on: September 05, 2017, 09:27:17 AM »

Wave action analysis with a stepped header, collector, and muffler is not done by the Dynomation 5 computer program I am using.  Is there another computer program that does this?
Try EngMod4T by Vannik software. Will do this and more. You have to enter a lot of stuff and it takes some getting used to but best I can tell is the best consumer level ( not 1000's  or 10000's of $) software out there. Not totally cheap by some standards but for what you get is a real bargain. Was $400 in past not sure if that has gone up. Neels ( Vannik) is good answering questions and with updates. There is so much stuff in this you will be forever finding it all. (that is a good thing, not a complaint). He is in South Africa. Everything available by download. Don't remember how I did payment but you can work it out.
http://vannik.co.za/index.htm


edit: Just checked. He now takes Paypal so payment is easy.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 09:29:29 AM by jacksoni » Logged

Jack Iliff
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« Reply #2873 on: September 05, 2017, 09:33:01 AM »

Wave action analysis with a stepped header, collector, and muffler is not done by the Dynomation 5 computer program I am using.  Is there another computer program that does this?
Try EngMod4T by Vannik software. Will do this and more. You have to enter a lot of stuff and it takes some getting used to but best I can tell is the best consumer level ( not 1000's  or 10000's of $) software out there. Not totally cheap by some standards but for what you get is a real bargain. Was $400 in past not sure if that has gone up. Neels ( Vannik) is good answering questions and with updates. There is so much stuff in this you will be forever finding it all. (that is a good thing, not a complaint). He is in South Africa. Everything available by download. Don't remember how I did payment but you can work it out.
http://vannik.co.za/index.htm


edit: Just checked. He now takes Paypal so payment is easy.

+1 and Neels is awesome to work with. Responsive and an absolute gentleman. A rarity it seems in the motorsport arena.
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jacksoni
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« Reply #2874 on: September 05, 2017, 10:29:33 AM »

Wave action analysis with a stepped header, collector, and muffler is not done by the Dynomation 5 computer program I am using.  Is there another computer program that does this?
Try EngMod4T by Vannik software. Will do this and more. You have to enter a lot of stuff and it takes some getting used to but best I can tell is the best consumer level ( not 1000's  or 10000's of $) software out there. Not totally cheap by some standards but for what you get is a real bargain. Was $400 in past not sure if that has gone up. Neels ( Vannik) is good answering questions and with updates. There is so much stuff in this you will be forever finding it all. (that is a good thing, not a complaint). He is in South Africa. Everything available by download. Don't remember how I did payment but you can work it out.
http://vannik.co.za/index.htm


edit: Just checked. He now takes Paypal so payment is easy.

+1 and Neels is awesome to work with. Responsive and an absolute gentleman. A rarity it seems in the motorsport arena.

Hoffman- glad to see you noticed this and piped in as well. I know you use his software.
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Jack Iliff
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« Reply #2875 on: September 05, 2017, 11:14:24 AM »

I'll take a moment to dig through this later this afternoon, but I've done A LOT of exhaust simulations on a 500cc single cylinder application in EngMod4t as well have talked with Calvin Elston at length. Additionally, a friend of mine works with Calvin on stuff and another friend has used Calvin with fantastic results. I'll sum up what I have learned the last year in a bit.

Took a bit of a look through this. I can double up my engine combination in EngMod4t. It's for a SR/TT500 engine. I'll use my cam specs, head, etc, just to look for trends in exhaust patterns. This will drag out over a couple weeks as I'm traveling all next weekend.

It seems you're on the right track. Megaphones still seem to be preferred in the single cylinder / flat track world, but seem to be going out of vogue. You are on the right track with the small diameters. Velocity preservation is critical and this goes right back to everything Calvin Elston preaches.

I'm likely going this route, and running it into a smaller Burns muffler than what you have:


With my rpm range (peak at about 7k), I'll be placing it 10-12" from the head/interference.

Calvin did a header for a friend of mine with the Fueling A/R chambers at the first step location. The overall length of the header was within 2" of what it was before. The difference is the tubing off the head went from 1 5/8" to 1 3/8" to match the port exit area. Power was up 10-12% across the entire range and with down a jet size. This was his first time using the chambers in the primaries, but his theory and results with A/R devices like this, is the tubing even smaller due to his belief that you are removing reverse flow, and thus the pipe will have less mass in it.

In EngMod4t, I found stepping the pipe like you did provides a similar benefit as a proper megaphone / reverse cone, but without the bad (and it's lighter and easier to construct). A megaphone really only works with a reverse cone, which really acts as a A/R device. Also they need to be a bit longer than what you have.

To see where things are now with the factories, take a look at the exhausts on the factory Indian flat track bikes.






The factory V&H Harley XG750R (which is a unreliable dog) has a similar looking exhaust into a x-pipe, but without the big step (stepping up kind of like yours does).

I will likely do something really similar, but the double A/R chamber will be (in spirit) where that big step is. EngMod4T has trouble modeling these devices, but I can work it out via just regular steps, which is how the engine should see it. I'll build two pipes though and test back to back.


« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 07:43:59 PM by hoffman900 » Logged
JimL
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« Reply #2876 on: September 05, 2017, 03:42:55 PM »

One more thumbs-up on the stepped header and chambering.   cheers

That is what TRD built for my pushrod bikes exhausts, but with some shorter areas due to the much higher peak rpm.  The only thing I noticed (and later asked about) was the rather sudden power drop off at the end of the revs.  I guess that is ok.....it is pretty hard to get "something for nothing".

Also....still fun following your thread and many experiences!

Jim
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2877 on: September 05, 2017, 11:49:20 PM »

Jack, I cannot get a message through to Vannick.  His "captcha" spam filter does not recognize anything I type in.  Please send me a personal message with his e-mail address.
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WOODY@DDLLC
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« Reply #2878 on: September 06, 2017, 10:34:58 AM »

Wobbly, I believe the new Dynomation 6 now does stepped headers and other stuff. You should be getting an upgrade notice in the mail.
If you don't get Vannick's email PM me.
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2879 on: September 07, 2017, 09:27:14 AM »

An advertisement for Dynomation 6 came in last week's mail.  They mention megaphones as end treatment options for headers with collectors.  There is no mention of mufflers.

The dyno work says meggas are not a good setup for this engine and mufflers are.  This is backed up by my experience with earlier versions of this build.  Vannick's software literature says their program can look at other options besides meggas.  Now I have his e-mail and I will order a copy of his program today. 
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