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Author Topic: Team Go Dog, Go! Modified Partial Streamliners  (Read 518603 times)
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2520 on: August 12, 2016, 01:44:30 AM »

This is the data listed on the upper right corner of the displacement sheet.  The flow data was measured at these lifts and theses are the degrees where these lifts happen.  Tom mentioned the degrees rotation at .040 and .050 lifts.  It would be measured from this displacement curve and it would be the distance above the horizontal line.  This is the actual lift.  The second picture illustrates this and where it is measured.  Lift does not occur until the tappet clearance is taken up.   

This is Larry, the intake cam that was in the bike during the dyno runs.


* 2016 Build 298.JPG (229.69 KB, 1280x931 - viewed 57 times.)

* 2016 Build 299.JPG (215.64 KB, 1280x960 - viewed 60 times.)
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2521 on: August 13, 2016, 10:18:00 AM »

These are the flow demand vs supply curves for Larry at 28 inches.  It does not flow all that bad.  I only got three horsepower with all of the modifications I did this year.  Larry was in the bike during the dyno pulls.  It is the only intake cam I have with functional tappet buckets.  Something else is wrong and it is preventing good performance.  The only thing to look at now is cam timing.

 


* 2016 Build 300.JPG (334.67 KB, 1739x1080 - viewed 59 times.)
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2522 on: August 13, 2016, 10:38:14 AM »

Fap!, as Major Hoople used to say.  The problem reveals itself.

"What I need is a good set of cams for land speed that will not eat up the valve train.  I will optimize the engine around them."  That is what I said when I ordered the cams eight or nine years ago.  Larry and its exhaust cam buddy, Zeppo arrived in the mail.  These are the cams in the bike for everything I have done for many years.

Larry has 238 degrees duration and the cam card says 244.  Larry opens the intake valve .050 at 21 degrees BTDC.  The cam card says 15 degrees.  The intake valve closes at at 37 degrees ATDC.  The cam card says 47 degrees.

Larry would be a moderate cam if it conformed to the cam card.  It is a very mild cam as ground.  It is so far advanced that it cannot give good top end power.  This explains why I have been struggling with this motor for years and cannot get it to go fast.

A new cam supplier is warranted.
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Sporty Dan
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« Reply #2523 on: August 13, 2016, 12:40:40 PM »

Wobbly, I'm glad you were able to find a root cause for the lack of power issues you have been having. Is there enough room to skip the cam chain a tooth on the gear? Or would that cause other issues?
As always I am impressed with the amount of research you do and data that you collect.  cheers
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« Reply #2524 on: August 13, 2016, 06:41:36 PM »

Wobbly,
1)  Per the description in reply #2522, I assume the intake close at 37 deg ATDC should be ABDC.
2)  On Larry’s graph, also assume the 0.50” lift should be 0.050”.

Working from the graph, it would seem that the IO timing is about 15 degrees BTDC, as per the cam card.  Also, close at 0.050 would seem to be about 30 degrees ABDC, which doesn’t compare with the card or your citation of 37 degrees.  Where are you getting the 21 and 37 ?
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2525 on: August 14, 2016, 12:28:54 AM »

The cam check shown here should be standard operating procedure for all of us.  My LSR career would have been brighter if I would'a done this seven or eight years ago when I bought the cams.  The expression "back to the drawing board" applies in my case.  That is my grandfather's board and triangle.

Moving the cam a tooth to the retard will be something I look at with the big program. 

The y-axis on the graph shows lift with zero valve clearance.  The clearance is .008 so I measured lift from the horizontal line drawn that crosses the y-axis at .008.  The card has opening at 15 BTDC and closing at 49 ABDC.  The measurements from the graph show actual opening at 21 BBDC and closing at 37 ABDC with 238 degrees duration.  The cam card says 244 degrees.

The tools I have are books from various authors like Vizard, PipeMax, and EnginePro.  All sorts of valuable info is in them.  None tell me at what degree the intake valve closing event should be for my engine.  This is a critical item and the only way I know how to figure it out is Dynomation.

So, I need a place to run the program with a nice big monitor.  The junk in the shed is rearranged so there is a tiny "office" under the stairs.  This is the official Team Go Dog, Go! research and development center.  The keyboard is an old laptop with the screen removed.  It uses Windows 7 which is an improved version of Windows 8 and 10.

       


* 2016 Build 301.JPG (169.7 KB, 800x600 - viewed 70 times.)

* 2016 Build 302.JPG (162.13 KB, 800x600 - viewed 67 times.)

* 2016 Build 303.JPG (139.48 KB, 800x600 - viewed 67 times.)
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2526 on: August 16, 2016, 09:46:10 PM »

My posts are pretty dull compared to speedweek.  The user's manual can be downloaded from the net without buying the program.  I will buy the software after payday.  The current task is to collect data to put into the program.  All of the intake cams are measured and now I am doing the exhaust cams.  This is Zeppo.  It is the companion to intake cam Larry and I have been running it for years.  The lobe centerline should be 105 and it is 91.  The duration should be 244 and it is 238, just like Larry.

The overlap is 47 degrees with a 94 degree lobe center angle and 238 duration, all at .050  This might seem to be pretty tight.  The Suzuki 1000cc GSXR runs a 90 lobe center angle with 80 overlap, so the cams might be out of spec, but not so far off as to be unheard of.  The Suzi has more duration, at 260 on both cams, so that might be how they make it work.  Both lift vs crank angle charts and the cam card are copied and sent to the grinder.  I am asking for a new set under warranty.  They clearly screwed up when they made mine.

These cams acted like ones with a lot of overlap, in hindsight.  A simple change such as going from one style of glasspak muffler to another yielded 8 HP.  Also, any sort of restrictive exhaust baffle caused horrible reversion problems.  Intake tuning was critical, too.  It had to be spot on to get HP.  Almost all of those over 200 dyno pulls were figuring this stuff out.  I am an idiot for not checking these cams during the initial install and a much wiser guy 'cause I did not.  They taught me a lot and at the very end I was able to get 90 HP from the motor. 
   
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2527 on: September 02, 2016, 11:11:26 AM »

The general rule for land speed racing is to do something on the bike every day.  The task for the last week or more is to walk down to the ABC market at 6 in the morning, buy a coffee and a hot rice bowl for breakfast, stroll across the street, sit on a bench overlooking Kapiolani Beach, and read the Dynomation users manual.  Tough duty, it is.  These Hawaiian assignments are rough.

The manual is at www.motionsoftware.com/downloads/Dynomation-UsersManual.pdf  It is 288 pages long and the Wave-Dynamics Analysis chapter at the back explains what I am doing.  The software will be ordered today and the first task is to model the engine I have and figure out what is going wrong.  The intake and exhaust systems were designed based on the cam card timing specs.  The cams are not close to those so the wave dynamics are goofy.  That is what I suspect and I will be able to find out if it is true.

Rose got on board the USS Harpers Ferry yesterday.  She will be puttering across the ocean to Camp Pendleton with Werner, our youngest boy, on the Tiger Cruise.  A hurricane will be passing by Oahu to the north when she is scheduled to depart.  That lady will have a story to tell about this, for sure.

. .  What I am doing is and
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2528 on: September 02, 2016, 11:46:10 PM »

This is a reference that is recommended to me by the fellow who builds my valve train.  I ordered a copy.  www.sae.org/search/?sector=AUTO&qt=camshaft+reference+handbook&x=6&y=4
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2529 on: September 02, 2016, 11:54:02 PM »

Another try.  Hopefully this works.http://www.sae.org/search/?sector=AUTO&qt=camshaft+reference+handbook&x=6&y=4
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2530 on: September 03, 2016, 12:01:49 AM »

My small brain cannot figure out how to post a direct link.  Google "sae camshaft reference handbook" and it will pop right up like a chipmunk that smells popcorn.   
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« Reply #2531 on: September 03, 2016, 08:19:09 AM »

Try this link: http://books.sae.org/b-966/

You might like this one, too: http://books.sae.org/b-945/

"The Automotive Aerodynamics Handbook"

Woobly, I guess you will be our go-to camshaft guy now!  shocked grin cheers
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All models are wrong, but some are useful! G.E. Box (1967) www.designdreams.biz
wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2532 on: September 04, 2016, 12:12:47 AM »

Woody, thanx for posting those linx. 
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2533 on: September 06, 2016, 11:35:22 PM »

The degree wheel I use is made for use on a crankshaft and I use it on the end of a cam.  This is recipe for confusion.


* 2016 Build 305.JPG (198.73 KB, 985x768 - viewed 43 times.)

* 2016 Build 306.JPG (197.07 KB, 629x600 - viewed 46 times.)
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wobblywalrus
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« Reply #2534 on: September 06, 2016, 11:52:41 PM »

This little chart makes things easier.  The degree wheel is set to TDC on the cam when the crank is at TDC in the overlap.  This way, the valve displacement vs crank angle drawings are easier to read.

Dynomation has a relatively simple Filling-and Emptying simulation, a much more complex Wave-Action simulation, and a hybrid that combines both of them.  The F&E simulation is the first one I will do and I need to describe the cams.  The program uses 10-point descriptions.  Four of the ten points are crank degrees for intake opening, intake closing, exhaust opening, and exhaust closing at 0.006 lift.  These are the seat-to-seat values.  Another four are these opening and closing points at 0.050 lift.  The last two values are the intake and exhaust cam gross lifts.  All are measure with no tappet clearance.


* 2016 Build 307.JPG (400.78 KB, 1920x810 - viewed 57 times.)
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