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Author Topic: Whats the problem with The Unlimited land speed record?  (Read 28141 times)
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Mooseman
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« on: March 29, 2009, 09:14:01 PM »

Please delete this if it is inapropriate I am not meaning to push any buttons . I was just reading old threads and noticed that there seems to be a dislike of Unlimited land speed record attempts especially those done by teams outside america. I am not trying to cause an argument or push anyones buttons . It just got me wondering thats all .

As someone who would love to oneday go for a world speed record of somekind oneday , I found it strange some of the things I have read in past threads.
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willieworld
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2009, 10:08:33 PM »

mooseman  i cant speak for everyone but most of the lsr people i know are wheel driven racers---jet and rocket vehicles (and prop driven....sorry franklin) dont race at any scta event and there is no place in the rule and record book for them.....most anyone you included can set a record with a minimum expense vehicle ---my wifes bike cost 3000 dollars and broke the fuel record at bonneville and el mirage in 08.......its kind of like top fuel dragsters at nhra    fun to watch but only a handful of people have the money to get involved--the ultimate land speed record is like that --as far as goofing on the foreigners are concerned ...you wont find a group of people more patriotic than the people in lsr and more honest i might add--- just some thoughts       willie buchta
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willie-dpombatmir-buchta
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2009, 10:39:24 PM »

Willie, you couldn't have said it better.

We shouldn't dis-courage efforts of sincere , knowledgeable, individuals like the F104 guys in Washington or certainly the next British attempt by Noble/Green et al, but there's been a lot of recent CRACKPOT posting regards never-could wanna-be 100,000 squirrels in a cage (made that one up - POSSIBLE???)  or: big light on the back that when you turn it on Newton's law applies, efforts by people in their DREAMS. A lot of 'em posting well-known dead projects to the point of BOREDOM.

Don't get discouraged, Mooseman, there are honest efforts out there -just examine them a bit for sincerety  and believability.

Let me assure you -sincere efforts will get help and support like you won't believe from this website!
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Mooseman
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2009, 12:20:10 AM »

Willie, you couldn't have said it better.

We shouldn't dis-courage efforts of sincere , knowledgeable, individuals like the F104 guys in Washington or certainly the next British attempt by Noble/Green et al, but there's been a lot of recent CRACKPOT posting regards never-could wanna-be 100,000 squirrels in a cage (made that one up - POSSIBLE???)  or: big light on the back that when you turn it on Newton's law applies, efforts by people in their DREAMS. A lot of 'em posting well-known dead projects to the point of BOREDOM.

Don't get discouraged, Mooseman, there are honest efforts out there -just examine them a bit for sincerety  and believability.

Let me assure you -sincere efforts will get help and support like you won't believe from this website!

I can fully see what you mean , I can understand it being a bit hard to believe when someone comes on and says some far fetched not so thought out idea . I am 20 years old and don't have any racing experiance yet but I oneday would love to have a go at the unlimited land speed record. Seriously though I fully see what you mean .

I was talking to somebody the other day and I said "Hey I should make some little scale models of differant body designs and strap rockets to them and see how they react at speed" then a couple of days later I was watching a documentary on the thrust ssc team and it turned out they had the same idea .

From a fan view point land speed racing to me reminds me of people who climb mountains , what do they get out of it , not much really but they can say to themselves that hey they did that . You know sort of like a personal achievement .
 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 04:11:47 AM by Mooseman » Logged
grumm441
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2009, 04:46:59 AM »

Maybe you could strat with this that is is for sale on the DLRA forum
Gray

http://www.dlra.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1016
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2009, 09:39:25 AM »

Moose, it is OK to dream that dream,, most of us did until reality set in... so we race the stuff we can because we either cant raise 20 million bucks or don't have that much in our wallet.  shocked 
Most of us enjoy watching the chase to the ultimate speed on the ground but it is easy to get tired of boisterous claims, especially from those that have not even tried any of it.  LSR is what you make it, it is a participant sport.
Be safe, have fun and then go fast   wink
Hope to see ya on the salt  cool
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2009, 05:02:33 PM »

YUP! I agree............Ed
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Mooseman
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2009, 05:12:28 PM »

Haha thanks for answering my question , I haven't been on here long and have allways been fascinated by land speed racing even though I am actually a drag racing fan . I just didn't quite understand some of the negative comments directed towards some of the unlimited attempts but now that I see where you guys are coming from it makes sense now . I am deffinitly going to have to get into this land speed stuff eventually this is really cool stuff .
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Mooseman
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2009, 05:13:53 PM »

YUP! I agree............Ed

Goodluck to you guy's!
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« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2009, 04:08:37 AM »

Moose, a little insight from someone who came close to trying with a viable effort and had to pack it in.  (for those who do not know, I was program manager and chief engineer of the Fossett LSR).

The absolute LSR (Steve called it the ALSR, some took exception and thought it should be the ULSR; the term "Unlimited" is applied to several other classes of wheel driven vehicles, so "Absolute" makes more sense), is a rarely pursued record.  More people have died attempting it than have held it, although this includes a lot of pre-war fatalities.

First, understand that most people on this board are interested in the ALSR, it just doesn't dominate their overall LSR experience.  IM<HO, the lack of direct interest from the wheel-driven LSR participants is a lack of relativity.  Wheel driven LSR uses subsonic aerodynamics, and is dominated by the need for downforce to create traction and internal combustion power to match this traction.  Distance vs. speed is long and acceleration and deceleration are slow relative to the ALSR.  Most wheel-driven LSR is on the salt of Bonneville, which is a variable surface whose characteristics dominate the design of the vehicles.  Combined with the fact that many people here can, and do, build their own LSR vehicles on minimal budgets and race for no recognition other than personal satisfaction and you can see how disconnected the niche of the ALSR is to them.

The ALSR is different.  It is dominated, even conceptually, by supersonic aerodynamics, the need for stability over downforce, and truly obscene speeds leading to far higher acceleration and deceleration levels than most drivers would be comfortable with.  There is no such thing as a survivable crash at speeds of 600+ mph let alone 1000.  Everything, wheels, tires, bearings, structures, aerodynamics, engine types, systems, etc. etc. etc. relates only slightly to wheel-driven LSR.  There are many racers and fabricators in wheel-driven LSR that are smart enough to be rocket scientists in the ALSR if they spent their lives on it and not on WD-LSR.

And that's one of the rubs.  It takes TIME (far more than money) to learn things.  Most of the people that post on these boards have spent their lives on WD-LSR and many are really good at it.  Unfortunately, this doesn't make them good at ALSR technology.  They are interested, it's just not what they do.

The second rub is harder.  Again, IM<HO, the ALSR is a "Catch-22":  Those who know what questions to ask and how to solve them are not going to do it and those that want to do it don't know what questions to ask let alone how to answer them.  This is not to put down anyone currently trying to break the ALSR from Noble, to Schadle, to McGlashen, to Stakes, or even me.  I do not have any credibility (other than the established supersonic air vehicle design database) to stand on a soapbox and proclaim myself the omniscient judge of all things ALSR.  If anyone does in this sport, it would be Noble.  Although I don't agree with his last two record breakers and his current design- he set the last two records.  QED, he knows what he is doing.  I do have strong opinions about how it should be done, referenced to the existing design database, and I am critical of efforts that ignore this. 
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Mooseman
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« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2009, 05:28:25 AM »

Thank you very much for that post , I look forward to reading your future posts .
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 05:46:30 AM by Mooseman » Logged
PorkPie
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« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2009, 06:16:16 AM »


 If anyone does in this sport, it would be Noble. 

Eric,

Richard (Noble) was the guy who got the right people together - John Ackroyd on the Thrust II (1983 record with himself on the wheel), Ron Ayers (Thrust SSC - Andy Green set two records in 1997 - the last was breaking the sound barrier) and Gwynne Bowsher (he was on both cars) plus some other. Also it is so that without Andy the Thrust SSC may be never set a record.

The ALSR or ULSR or outright record (as the British call them) had to be seen in the historie......

In the twenties when Segrave set the record with the Sunbeam (Tiger) he used a car which was used at the race track - it was not a special construction.

From there on the LSR was set by special construction like the Bluebird (Campbell) Babs (Thomas) Slugh and Golden Arrow (both Segrave). After 1935 we had the Monster cars like Thunderbolt and Railton as the record holder.....the racer starts the "technology" and "science" in the LSR historie.

The wheel driven records was coming to a limit....see the increase of the wheeldriven record since 1947!

Than in the sixties the jet age start...there was cheap surplase jet engines lying around (!) which gave a very cheap power to weight rate......and the engineering was sometimes more sheer luck than high tech......the Three Wheeler SoA was at first undriveable and went after some big trouble into the windtunnel...not before......

Like No Risk No Fun Breedlove and Arfons pushed the record to a new level and from there on again the increase of the record was very less up to 1997 when Andy packed another some miles on.

Looking on the racer which set the record in this time you can see that the cost and science increase in a very progressive curve.

The SoA and the Green Monster was still Hot Rodder built in the backyard.......the Blue Flame was the first real trust powered science car......and with the Blue Flame the ALSR split away from the low budget record which a Hot Rodder could afford.....also the size of manpower which was now necessary was outside of every Hot Rodder teams.....there are teams which shows a exception - I mean
Ed Shadle (NAE) and Rosco McGlashan (AI).....but if you see how long they are working now on the project due to the missing budget and may be manpower, too......this two teams are keep alive by volunteers.......


With all this historie it is may be easier to understand while the ALSR isn't anymore so interest for the normal record breakers at the salt, sand or pavement........they still looking on the ALSR.....but there is always the note in the background.......this is far out of the range what they can afford.
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« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2009, 08:40:25 AM »

moose
The greatest dreams are always unrealistic. do it anyways.
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Mooseman
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« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2009, 08:38:29 PM »

moose
The greatest dreams are always unrealistic. do it anyways.
mike
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Those are the words I like to live by .
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turbocox
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2009, 04:42:01 PM »

I've been sitting in the background on this site for a while now, and feel Confident to post, (there are some very clever members on here) And I Don't want to look to silly embarassed

I agree with ALL the replies to this thread.....From some very knowledgeable people

BUT....

without the dreamers we wouldn't have the likes of Seagreave,Cobb,Campbell,Breedlove,Gabelich,Noble and Green.

What I'm trying to say is Dreaming doesn't cost a penny, Do lots and lots of study, LISTEN to ALL that give advice to you, and you won't go far wrong.

Maybe just maybe you'll become a record breaker in time grin

Don't ever stop dreaming!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 06:24:04 AM by turbocox » Logged

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