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Author Topic: Just another streamliner  (Read 3755 times)
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adamadam
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« on: March 24, 2009, 06:42:35 AM »

Hi Guys,
Well, after thinking about building something for a while I finally put saw to wood and started to mock up a streamliner. I followed Sumner's lead, and last night started to make a frame out of some 40x40mm pine, and a body out of cardboard. As you may or may not be able to tell, the idea and general shape is very closely related to Costella's Nebulous theorems. I'm not ashamed of copying/borrowing the shape, I love their lines, and how they look. They seem to go pretty fast too.

So I'm putting this up to gather advice, both good and bad while making this streamliner. Its a long road, and this is all a first for me. I have a fair bit of experience around motorbikes and the like, however my welding needs some work. I plan on tacking up the frame on a jig then getting an experienced hand in.

Ive attached a stitched together photo of my work over the past two nights. I welcome advice on the frame structure, especially on tubing size and triangulation. I figured 42mm tube for the main structure, especially roll cage. I am considering square tube to make it a little easier to work with, round does look nicer though, and I have a mill and hole saw for cutting the angles. While I don't want to completely over engineer the frame, I don't want to risk safety for the sake of a few KG's. For now I just want to go fast, breaking records can come later. In case your wondering, I do fit into that wooden frame, its a snug fit though. Tip to the rear of the firewall is 4.8m (16ish feet), it just looks a bit small in the photos

Oh, and I plan to have a motorcycle engine out back. Maybe a Vmax or cr500 maybe. Behind the driver is 620mm, so that's what I have to play with. For wheels Im planning 15x4.5's or so out back with Goodyear LSR's, Unless I can get away with front runners up to a certain speed? For the fronts, I was planning on two solid wheels in line, similar to Speed Demons setup.

Anyway, that's enough rambling for now, any feedback is welcome. I'm new to this so please go easy on me.

Thanks
Adam
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Stainless1
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2009, 07:21:33 AM »

Adam, stretch your design another meter or so, you will be a lot happier with the additional room for fire equipment, cooling system, etc.  plan it all out before you start.  Remember to build for the fastest record speed you will attempt for the life of the car, not how fast you think you will go.  You might want a turbo later so build it extremely stout.
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Stainless
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MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Sumner
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2009, 08:47:08 PM »

Hi Adam,

Good start.  I have a couple thoughts and a question.  You say streamliner, but the back of the car looks like a roadster.  Is it going to be a rear engine modified roadster?  If it is a streamliner I would pay more attention to the back of the car as in many ways it is as important or more important than the front aero wise.

Also I don't think you are gaining anything with the small Costella type front as the frontal area is going to be determined by the largest cross-section which appears behind the driver where it normally is.  Now I'm not saying to make the front of the car a square the same shape as the wider cross-section, but I see no real advantage to try and make it that small up there.

I'm not one to question Jack's cars as they are extremely fast, but the dip behind the front wheels seems to be a place for separation of the air from the body.  I'm wondering if the dip is there on mainly the red car so that the driver can see better as it is an extremely low car at the helmet vision line.

I agree with Stainless add some length to the car.  You will need it for the safety stuff, water tanks, turbo and intercooler, ice water, etc,.

I don't know if you posted this or not, but where are you located?  Outside the U.S. with all the measurements in metric?

The best of luck,

Sum
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dbradley
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2009, 09:00:15 PM »

I think his email server is "down under"...............
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adamadam
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2009, 03:16:03 AM »

Yeah, I'm from down here in Australia. A fair way away from Bonneville, but the DLRA has quite a few open records that need setting. Its only once a year, but its better than nothing.

Sumner,
Thanks for the advice, I had some concerns about the aerodynamics, and I've also had some emails about the design. It might take a bit of testing and trial and error to get rid of the separation. The main thing that determined the rear end were the wheel/tyre size and my head. It is intended to be a streamliner shape, I envisaged the rear as more of a Poteet/Main's speed demon style.

The other streamliner design I was tossing up with was the old long thin rectangle, similar to the JCB streamliner and the Buckeye Bullet. These guys seem to go quite fast, the buckeye bullet did 315mph with a 500hp electric engine. I figure 500+ hp owuldnt be too hard to get out of the right engine.

I think this design would be much roomier for safety systems and the like. It would be easier to accommodate a range of engines, and probably easier when it comes to fabrication, especially the skin. It would also allow me to run full size tyres front and rear. What are your thoughts on these designs? Would it be much safer? easier? faster? better? This design seems a bit more proven, however, the wetted area probably wouldn’t be a lot better, but the cross section would probably not be much more, if any.. I guess the bottom and rear could be designed to reduce drag too.

I might whip up a prototype tomorrow, just to play with sizing and stuff, then post some photos. I like to do the design stuff in real life, Even though I have an I.T degree, I still think there's something about making a real prototype. It gets me more excited and motivated too.

Adam

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Peter Jack
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2009, 05:39:00 AM »

The JCB car has a fair bit of aero work under the front to get rid of the air under the nose. Racecar Engineering had some pretty good pictures of it when they did the write up on the car.

Pete
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Dr Goggles
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2009, 06:25:09 AM »

Hi Adam,
I've got a couple of suggestions and they are by no means aimed at you personally.I'm going to put them down line by line because I'm not(for once ) up for an essay right now.

It has been said many times here , everything has been thought of , lots of it done, some of it worked.....so find as much LSR history as you can...the good the bad and the ugly, the bold and the beautiful,look at 'em and read what they did.Some very clever people have been at this game, there have also been some mad ones and some very rich fools, learn from their experiences.

If you're going to be true to what you wanted when you started you first have to finish.This can be horribly expensive, if you bite off too much you'll have a half finished thing that has sent you broke.

This game is a battle between power and drag, you need to convince traction to be your friend. Power you can get at the shop,most people have more than enough.Drag is something your design will dictate and your design is prey to thousands of different factors.Keep it simple , have a reason for everything you do, not a hunch.

The rules. There are very specific minimum requirements related to safety, learn them off by heart and begin your design there. They dictate the smallest possible area you can sit in.

Learn the basics of aerodynamics, it's not likely you'll ever get to a wind tunnel  so apply the knowns, the unknowns are bad science .

There are a lot of records up for grabs in the DLRA, but you're not the only person building something........have a really good look at the Budfab motorcycle streamliner, something along those lines is conceivable, aiming for 300 is a serious step for a self confessed newbie.

Go for it brother. If it wasn't for a shipload of naivete we would never have finished our car but that said I feel like the blind bloke who just walked across the freeway, I survived but I dunno what I was thinking when I started. wink wink

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Few understand what I'm trying to do but they vastly outnumber those who understand why...................

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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2009, 10:53:21 AM »

Go for it brother. If it wasn't for a shipload of naivete we would never have finished our car but that said I feel like the blind bloke who just walked across the freeway, I survived but I dunno what I was thinking when I started. 
 cheers cheers cheers 

WOW!!!!!!!  shocked   oh HOW TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!   cheers
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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2009, 05:50:59 PM »

Looks like the number of specialty built landspeed vehicles down here is going to increase quite a bit in the next few years.
Good luck ,
A well documented build is as good a read as any bestseller.. cheers
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Dynoroom
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2009, 01:20:44 AM »

Hi Adam,
I've got a couple of suggestions and they are by no means aimed at you personally.I'm going to put them down line by line because I'm not(for once ) up for an essay right now.

It has been said many times here , everything has been thought of , lots of it done, some of it worked.....so find as much LSR history as you can...the good the bad and the ugly, the bold and the beautiful,look at 'em and read what they did.Some very clever people have been at this game, there have also been some mad ones and some very rich fools, learn from their experiences.

If you're going to be true to what you wanted when you started you first have to finish.This can be horribly expensive, if you bite off too much you'll have a half finished thing that has sent you broke.

This game is a battle between power and drag, you need to convince traction to be your friend. Power you can get at the shop,most people have more than enough.Drag is something your design will dictate and your design is prey to thousands of different factors.Keep it simple , have a reason for everything you do, not a hunch.

The rules. There are very specific minimum requirements related to safety, learn them off by heart and begin your design there. They dictate the smallest possible area you can sit in.

Learn the basics of aerodynamics, it's not likely you'll ever get to a wind tunnel  so apply the knowns, the unknowns are bad science .

There are a lot of records up for grabs in the DLRA, but you're not the only person building something........have a really good look at the Budfab motorcycle streamliner, something along those lines is conceivable, aiming for 300 is a serious step for a self confessed newbie.

Go for it brother. If it wasn't for a shipload of naivete we would never have finished our car but that said I feel like the blind bloke who just walked across the freeway, I survived but I dunno what I was thinking when I started. wink wink

This is some of the best advice I think I've ever heard given regarding lsr, newbe or not. Listen grasshopper.... this is wisdom.
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Michael LeFevers
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2009, 05:44:15 AM »

Hi Adam,
I've got a couple of suggestions and they are by no means aimed at you personally.I'm going to put them down line by line because I'm not(for once ) up for an essay right now.

It has been said many times here , everything has been thought of , lots of it done, some of it worked.....so find as much LSR history as you can...the good the bad and the ugly, the bold and the beautiful,look at 'em and read what they did.Some very clever people have been at this game, there have also been some mad ones and some very rich fools, learn from their experiences.

If you're going to be true to what you wanted when you started you first have to finish.This can be horribly expensive, if you bite off too much you'll have a half finished thing that has sent you broke.

This game is a battle between power and drag, you need to convince traction to be your friend. Power you can get at the shop,most people have more than enough.Drag is something your design will dictate and your design is prey to thousands of different factors.Keep it simple , have a reason for everything you do, not a hunch.

The rules. There are very specific minimum requirements related to safety, learn them off by heart and begin your design there. They dictate the smallest possible area you can sit in.

Learn the basics of aerodynamics, it's not likely you'll ever get to a wind tunnel  so apply the knowns, the unknowns are bad science .

There are a lot of records up for grabs in the DLRA, but you're not the only person building something........have a really good look at the Budfab motorcycle streamliner, something along those lines is conceivable, aiming for 300 is a serious step for a self confessed newbie.

Go for it brother. If it wasn't for a shipload of naivete we would never have finished our car but that said I feel like the blind bloke who just walked across the freeway, I survived but I dunno what I was thinking when I started. wink wink



Excellent advice. 

                                      Max
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