Supercharger stageing, compounding,

[jdincau]

Your blower must be driven by the same engine that drives the car See 4.FF...."powered by the primary engine"  No deal. You can't do it.

  There could be an argument in AA streamliner or lakester as they are allowed multible engines AND the rule book states ''innovation is unlimited''

               JL222

Not any more, for 2010 it was changed to "Innovation is encouraged, within the rules".

[RichFox]

Your blower must be driven by the same engine that drives the car See 4.FF...."powered by the primary engine"  No deal. You can't do it.

  There could be an argument in AA streamliner or lakester as they are allowed multible engines AND the rule book states ''innovation is unlimited''

               JL222

I will never dispute your right to stand in the hot sun arguing a lost cause. Go ahead and build the car and drag it out.

[McRat]

If you wanted to run aux powered supercharging in a streamliner, you could run two drive engines.  One engine (AUX) would supply electric power, pump fuel, water pumping, supercharging, then be connected to an electric drive motor to apply any surplus power to the wheels.  There is no rule concerning how much drive output an engine has to have.  The aux motor would be a small, cheap, reliable, stable motor.  Like an LS1, SBC, or I4 on gas.  Since you would be most likely running AA with it, it would not have to be accessible to teardown, and should last the life of the car. 

Why would you do this?  Possible advantages:

Safety - The "hair on fire" engine would not have a blower or turbo mounted on it.  No risk of blower backfire and less fire risk.  In case of emergency, the fly-by-wire engine can be killed instantly (even automatically with fire sensors) and more reliably than the HOF engine.  Suddenly all fuel is cut, all air is cut, all power is cut.  Killing the aux, can be done very easy, and with various switches.   

Accessibility - You should never have to play with the aux engine, and the HOFE would be naked.

Turnaround - For FIA events, you only have to look at one engine that is more accessible.

Constant blower speed, pressure - No belt worries, pulley hassle, easier jetting, and programmable boost changes simply.

Form factor - Both engines forward profile could be smaller than a dressed supercharged engine.

Easier plumbing - the aux motor is pretty much a stand-alone family car engine, electric fly-by-wire.  The plumbing you need to worry about would be simplier.

Cost? - Let's say you want 2000rwhp.  Assume 30% parasitic and drive losses.  You would either need two 1300HP engines, one 2600HP, or an aux setup, plus a 2000HP or less HOF engine.  The aux engine should also contribute enough power to make up for any driveline losses, and then some.  You would also need only one supercharger.  When it's time to rebuild or replace, you are only concerned with the single HOF engine.  There are off the shelf, 100,000mi warranty engines, with outputs up to 630+ HP and a form factor of a N/A SBC.  But you probably wouldn't need that much.  A 430HP engine is much cheaper, and would probably get it done.

Crankshaft - Driving large amounts of accessory power on the front of a crank while pushing huge power on the back needs a crank that is far stronger than one that just drives out the back.

Driveline - Single engine driveline with no accessory considerations.  The aux engine can be mounted anywhere with no concern for driveline issues.

Testing - You can test the aux engine separately (although little would needed), and the single HOE would be lower output for testing.

Starting - Fire up the AUX motor, use it's electric to assist forward motion, then the supercharged air would start the HOF engine.  Shouldn't need a push start.

Braking - Assuming a RWD HOF setup for low drive losses, put the AUX electric motor(s) on the front wheels.  Reversing the field on the motors will gently retard wheel motion without risk of brake overheating. 

[bbarn]

What if you were to run a turbine APU and use the bleed air to drive your turbos and your accessory/PTO to run your mechanicals? I believe the question was leaning a bit more in that direction. If one were to use a "hybrid" approach, big piston engine (AA) and small turbine engine is it a safe assumption it would be running in the turbine class, even if the turbine was not your primary source of mechanical/wheel power?

[McRat]

That would be really trick, but I doubt it would be "legal" for either the turbine or piston classes. 

Without the primary power source being a turbine, it really isn't a turbine-powered racer.  And it could not run piston classes either.

Isn't there an "unlimited powerplant class"?  For wheel driven projects that don't fit any of the powerplant rules? 

[Stainless1]

FIA does.... record currently a smidgen over mach 1... 763 and change I think 

[McRat]

FIA does.... record currently a smidgen over mach 1... 763 and change I think 

Naw, wheel driven.  What's Omega Class?

The fastest ground vehicle when over 6,000mph, but I don't think it holds any "records".

[Dynoroom]

FIA does.... record currently a smidgen over mach 1... 763 and change I think 

Naw, wheel driven.  What's Omega Class?

The fastest ground vehicle when over 6,000mph, but I don't think it holds any "records".


I've always wondered why the United States Government never made a return run with there rocket sleds..... 

[McRat]

I think it's because the USAF doesn't trust the French...   

[dw230]

Pat,

Your reply #77 has a lot of good ideas.

A piston engine with a second turbine engine driving the accessories instead of the wheels would fall into the ci range of the piston engine. The aux engine does not have to drive the wheels.

Section 2.A Engines(underlined is the key wording)
"For any engine to be considered for cubic inch (cc) requirements, the engine shall have contributed to the propulsion of the vehicle."

The rule is pointed to cubic inch rerquirements to make class, not the number of engines used.

DW

"

[jl222]

 The history channel had a program on the worlds most expensive car last night ( and others) a 1939 Auto Union grand prix racer at a Paris auction valued at 12 million euros. They finally showed a shot of the motor 12 cyl and two roots blowers ''staged'' one directly bolted to the other this in 1939!! They didn't say anything about the engine but I believe they had to be 11/2 litres if supercharged.

                           JL222

  Looking up Auto Union on the web it looks like 3 litres max, 460-485 hp and could spin tires at over 100 mph.

[jl222]

  Bumping this topic to the front page so Desotoman can find it and hopefully post his supercharger temp calculator.

   JL222 

[desotoman]

John,

Here is the link.

Tom G.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm

[Constant Kinetics]

The compound engine was the prerunner of the gas turbine, once they found out that they could get more power out of the turbine than the engine they just went to a combustion chamber for the hot gases and "Bobs your uncle" you have a gas turbine!

Rex

         Hey, Rex, your giving away all my secrets. (jk, many people have built the same thing i'm doing now) I'm using 2 Holset OTR diesel turbochargers each with it's own combustion chamber plumbed in between the compressor and exhaust turbine to power an exhaust driven turbine to turn my back wheel. In essence, 2 1/2 turbos, no motor