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Author Topic: turbo motor build  (Read 41736 times)
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Jonny Hotnuts
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« on: January 05, 2009, 08:59:49 PM »

Here is the start the turbo motor build.
My pop and I have gotten more than a few heated arguments about building our own motors. Initially he felt it was going to be too complicated and we should rely on a builder with experience.
We have (to put it lightly) had to deal with an unreal amount of problems with engine builders, their quirks, crappy work and the lack of the ability to get something done in a hand grenade time frame (a year later we are still waiting on things…..SSS and his crank sort of deals). I have always felt we should know the motors and learn how to build our own, even if it ends up costing us some money with a broken motor here or there.



I was able to hollow a spot out in the garage....its not much room but its not outside!
This is the motor we used our first year and is stock less the 2 intake cam mod and no pair valve.



After pulling the valve cover I notice a bolt was missing on the cam covers.....
We had an "engine builder" do the 2 intake mod for us and was wondering why there was a bolt missing.

Turns out the bolt was only partly missing....the other half was in the head. I wonder why no one told us they broke a bolt off and just replace the valve cover.....

After about 20 mins and some work I was able to get the broken bolt out.
This is an example of just another problem we had with other people doing or work....



Heres a shot of the motor with a few parts off of it.
Not shown in the pic is the starter clutch plug that our engine builder used thread locking loctite on and had to pie cut it from the center and tap out the sections......nice.....



2 intake cams cleaned up.....
Will be asking about cam degrees for 2 intakes used with turbos when I get closer to seeing these go back in.

Now....its cold and I am going back in the house!

~JH
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 09:03:27 PM by Jonny Hotnuts » Logged

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"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
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« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2009, 09:12:32 PM »

Keep on posting your progress. You are doing a great job so far. Also, please tell us what your plan for the engine is - i.e. what kind of turbo, plenum, electronics, gearing, etc.

Don
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Stainless1
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« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2009, 09:22:13 PM »

JNuts, Do you have adjustable cam sprockets?  Couldn't tell by the picture... When installing 2 intakes it can be easy to screw that up and bend a valve.  What are you planning for the inside of the motor?  How much boost are you planning?  Tell us more.  It is a good idea to know how to work on your motor, can come in handy at measurement time...
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2009, 11:40:20 PM »

Jh,

we never run 2 intake cams with our turbo engines. Do a search on sh.org and you'll find that dennis tried running two intake cams and lost 30 hp.
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Seldom Seen Slim
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2009, 12:21:48 PM »

JH, what's your wife got to say about camshafts on that nice marble counter top, which I assume is in the kitchen?
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 12:27:38 PM »

JH, what's your wife got to say about camshafts on that nice marble counter top, which I assume is in the kitchen?
Slim,

Try to stay on topic here... tongue
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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2009, 01:18:13 PM »

Oh, sorry.

JH:  What's your wife got to say about those camshafts from your turbo motor build resting on the marble counter top?

JN:  There.  Is that better?
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Jon E. Wennerberg
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McRat
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2009, 01:26:47 PM »

Not sure if would have helped, but if something is Loctite'd, heat it up with a propane torch till you see some smoke, then try it.  Loctite is a plastic, and it melts.

If you can get away with using the kitchen, try washing motorcycle parts in the dishwasher on HOT.  I think that's the reason I was kicked out of the house when I was 16. grin
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4-barrel Mike
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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2009, 02:39:17 PM »

Lucky guy.  When I was 16, I was the dishwasher.   afro

Mike
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Jonny Hotnuts
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2009, 05:07:43 PM »

Quote
Also, please tell us what your plan for the engine is - i.e. what kind of turbo, plenum, electronics, gearing, etc.

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4665.0.html

The turbo is a master power T70.....this is not a garret T70. For Garrett size comparison it’s just a bit larger then a GT35 but not as big as a T66 (it is however, a big turbo).


As far as the engine goes there isn’t much I am not planning on doing with the exception of leaving the head stock (less 65 psi springs and ti retainers), no billet crank and not using a multi-stage lockup style clutch.

I am (and have been) waiting for our undercut, big shaft tranny with drum mod.
I am making a call a week.....always seems that "it should be here tomorrow" and has been for about 5 months.

All common stuff is being done to the motor....pistons, rods, studs along with all the little stuff like HD pins, high flow oil pump gear ect. and really I am to the point that if the motor needs it I am going to do it, even if it puts my arse in a bind.


Quote
Insert Quote
Oh, sorry.

JH:  What's your wife got to say about those camshafts from your turbo motor build resting on the marble counter top?

JN:  There.  Is that better?

What she doesn’t know.....    wink


Quote
Insert Quote
Jh,

we never run 2 intake cams with our turbo engines. Do a search on sh.org and you'll find that dennis tried running two intake cams and lost 30 hp.

Jason, I have done a bunch of searching about this and you are correct that the general consensus is that it is for most applications it is not worth it to have the duel intake mod for a turbo motor. It has been reported that you can get a few more top end HP but loose HP on the bottom vs. the stock exhaust cam.

There are however some supposed to be exceptions to this....and the one factor is turbo size.
Even dennis agrees you can make better HP with the duel intakes IF you have a turbo large enough.
I was not able to read in detail why the big turbo makes a difference but for some reason everyone agrees that if you run the duel intake mod to see any benefit it requires a large turbine.

I will in fact look into this with more detail and will not compromise the build because I already have the 2 intakes with sprockets. I may consider getting turbo cams by Web or Megacycle if this proves to be necessary.

Thanks for the heads up.....

Quote
Not sure if would have helped, but if something is Loctite'd, heat it up with a propane torch till you see some smoke, then try it.  Loctite is a plastic, and it melts.

After trying to remove the cover (with the correct key) the inside of the hole stripped and da.mn near broke my hand.
After removing the cover and seeing it from the backside I fould that it damaged the plug by streching the metal.
It was only after removing it that I fould it was caked with Loctite.

Good info about heating it, will try it in the future but in this case it was too late!


Quote
Lucky guy.  When I was 16, I was the dishwasher.   

Mike

Gosh Mike did they even have automatic dishwashers back then?

LOL








« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 05:16:21 PM by Jonny Hotnuts » Logged

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Andy Cooke
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2009, 07:13:18 PM »


There are however some supposed to be exceptions to this....and the one factor is turbo size.
Even dennis agrees you can make better HP with the duel intakes IF you have a turbo large enough.
I was not able to read in detail why the big turbo makes a difference but for some reason everyone agrees that if you run the duel intake mod to see any benefit it requires a large turbine.


It's largely due to the ratio of pressure in the exhaust manifold to the inlet runners, with a sufficiently well flowing turbo you will have less pressure in the exhaust manifold (TIP - Turbine Inlet Pressure, also called EMP - Exhaust Manifold Pressure) than in the intake.  This allows you to run more overlap than with a lesser flowing turbo - overlap and backpressure (relative to intake) equals an engine full of exhaust gasses.  Twin scroll housings also help in this respect; since manifold pressure isn't constant, but a series of pulses and the scrolls keep them apart.  I realise that your turbo is big, but I'm not sure that your turbine is that big, I also don't know what kind of LATDC you have with your cams, you should measure it.  Personally I'd build the engine with the milder cam, and log TIP and MAP to see whether it's worth looking at the bigger exhaust cam, the risk-reward ratio is all wrong with hotter cams until you know how your engine/turbo is working.  I've wasted a lot of money gaining the knowledge of those few words.  You already have more than enough stuff to play with - cam timing, fuelling, ignition timing, boost, cooling...

If you get time you should plot the lift curves of your cams, I've done about 30 now for my engine, and it's explained a lot about why some cams work on my engine and some don't, it's also highlighted a lot of BS spouted by cam makers and experts.

Andy cheers
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Jonny Hotnuts
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2009, 08:40:33 PM »

Andy....funny thing is that today I checked shipping rates @ UPS to send you a package.

Your explanation makes sense to me....I was thinking all day "how is it that an identical cam with slightly more lift could be detrimental to performance".



Here is a pic with my helper "Captain Muddy Paws" guarding the motor (I assume from cats).



Head and jugs off the motor.....had to make a quick run to AutoZone to get a 1/2 to 3/8 impact adapter. Those head bolts wouldnt budge with my 3/8 impact and had to step up to the 1/2. Even the 1/2 impact didnt like them very much and had to jack the PSI on the regulator.

I also noticed the plastic on the cam guide is checked. I doubt this is the way they should be and think I will replace the tensioner and guide.
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"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
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(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2009, 09:13:45 PM »

I'm with you Mike---I was Mama Smiths oldest baby girl Bill  grin when it came to things around the house---I did my share of the housework rolleyes!!!!!!!!
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bak189
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« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2009, 12:20:06 AM »

Ever used a breaker-bar?Huh?
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Stainless1
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« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009, 12:25:30 AM »

I'm with you Mike---I was Mama Smiths oldest baby girl Bill  grin when it came to things around the house---I did my share of the housework rolleyes!!!!!!!!

Retire, but be sure your wife/girl friend/soul mate/ life partner still has to get up and go to work every morning while you sleep in, you'll be doing your share of housework...  undecided
Oh, I forgot the topic police.  
How much mechanical work do you get out of the dog?  Does it hand you tools when you are working on your turbo motor
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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