Author Topic: CB radios for the Salt  (Read 22623 times)

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Offline edweldon

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CB radios for the Salt
« on: September 01, 2008, 11:50:21 AM »
This was a year of general aggravation over CB radios.  Among others my own experience is sending all 3 of mine (cheap junk from Radio Shack) to the dustbin.  All I want now is quality and equipment that is reliable for transmitting. Cost is no longer a consideration.  Anyone have suggestions and comments?  (I got one good suggestion from Jim Rice, a Cobra model)
What brand/model?
What features?
Fixed vs portable with a charger or 12volt connection?
Best antenna?
Are the more expensive models repairable or are all of them just "throwaway?
Should some kind of electrical isolation from a vehicle's electrical system be used? (like running a 12VDC power supply off an inverter?
Does anyone know of a model that has dual or multiple channel scan that allows 2 or more user selectable channels besides 9, 16 and 19?  Or should I just plan on having a second radio to monitor the alternate channel? (maybe one of those portables destined for the dustbin)
Beyond this are there good tricks to employ at the Salt to get optimum CB performance?
What is the practical range at Bonneville?  Can a CB reach the tower from the 7 mile?
How's the best way to know which channel the Tower is monitoring/broadcasting from besides asking one of the starters prior to making a run?
BTW, I'm getting tired of the bulk and unreliability of cigarette lighter plugs.  Anyone have suggestions for readily available plug and socket systems for managing the tangle of wires in the front seat?
Is it possible to come up with an easily buildable gadget that would shine an indicator light when the CB was transmitting a strong signal (intentionally or unintentionally)
Any good ideas will be much appreciated by myself and I suspect lots of others.
Ed Weldon

Captain Eddie's Day Old Fish Market -- home of the Bonneville Salt Fish
Featuring the modern miracle of mechanical refrigeration.

Offline Sumner

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2008, 12:09:42 PM »
This was a year of general aggravation over CB radios.  Among others my own experience is sending all 3 of mine (cheap junk from Radio Shack) to the dustbin.  All I want now is quality and equipment that is reliable for transmitting. Cost is no longer a consideration.  Anyone have suggestions and comments?  (I got one good suggestion from Jim Rice, a Cobra model)
What brand/model?
What features?
Fixed vs portable with a charger or 12volt connection?
Best antenna?
Are the more expensive models repairable or are all of them just "throwaway?
Should some kind of electrical isolation from a vehicle's electrical system be used? (like running a 12VDC power supply off an inverter?
Does anyone know of a model that has dual or multiple channel scan that allows 2 or more user selectable channels besides 9, 16 and 19?  Or should I just plan on having a second radio to monitor the alternate channel? (maybe one of those portables destined for the dustbin)
Beyond this are there good tricks to employ at the Salt to get optimum CB performance?
What is the practical range at Bonneville?  Can a CB reach the tower from the 7 mile?
How's the best way to know which channel the Tower is monitoring/broadcasting from besides asking one of the starters prior to making a run?
BTW, I'm getting tired of the bulk and unreliability of cigarette lighter plugs.  Anyone have suggestions for readily available plug and socket systems for managing the tangle of wires in the front seat?
Is it possible to come up with an easily buildable gadget that would shine an indicator light when the CB was transmitting a strong signal (intentionally or unintentionally)
Any good ideas will be much appreciated by myself and I suspect lots of others.
Ed Weldon



Ed I had a cheap Radio Shack for years and an antenna under the running board (for looks definitely not performance).  I could hear Glen fine from anywhere and he heard me when Hooley spun about 2 years, but last year I don't think he heard me when I called when Hooley had a near spin.  This prompted me to change things this year.  On an earlier thread it was mentioned more than once that the antenna was the key to the system. 

I ordered a magnetic mount Wilson Little Wil after the Wilson line was recommended.  I got a SWR tuner or trimmer also, but that didn't seem to make much difference.  With the same radio I was able to hear truckers and such way further than with my old antenna setup and was able to broadcast miles now.  Fortunately I didn't have to ask Glen permission to enter the course to retrieve a car this year, but felt that if the need arose he would have heard me.

I had an external speaker setup on the CB also and during the meet I was moving it in the truck and pulled on the wires and I think shorted them.  It no longer worked and the CB barely worked then.  I went to town to the truck stop by the Rainbow and bought the cheapest Cobra CB they had for about $50.  I need it since it was also the smallest and would fit where my other one was.  With it and the good antenna I could still send and receive very well and had no problem hearing glen for quite a few miles down the interstate on the way east when I left on Friday.

Before you get rid of the radios try a good antenna (find the thread posted on this before Speed Week) and mount it for best reception,

Sum

Offline 836dstr

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2008, 12:29:50 PM »
Ed,

I tried a hand held CB and it was marginal even at El Mirage. I won a small CB at our Club (SDRC) Banquet 6 or 7 years ago, installed it under the dash and hard wired into the trucks power. I went to a Stereo shop and bought the best magnetic base antenna I could get. One of the keys is the location of the antenna. It seems to work best right in the center of the cab roof. Tuning the length of the antenna can also help. Just follow the advise of the salesman, or do some research

No problems and works fine at Bonneville. I just loop the mic cable over the steering column and it's out of the way. Undo the antenna cable after the meet and your are good to go.

Tossed the portable years ago.

Tom

Offline DCarr511

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2008, 01:49:20 PM »
Here is a link to a thread I stared last year on this same topic. I still have this radio, but its on a shelf. I replaced it with a Cobra Model 29 " Classic " that I bought off of ebay for 75 $ delivered. I am still using the same antennea which I plan on replacing one of these days. But for now it works good, have never brought it to the Salt though ... next year will be the test.

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2636.0.html

edit: ... The Cobra 29 hasnt been out to the Salt yet, but the RS Antennea has been and worked fine. It is still on the truck at this time. as I found I enjoyed having it when traveling the interstates.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 06:16:00 PM by DCarr511 »

McRat

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2008, 02:11:40 PM »
We had a fixed Cobra in the motorhome/chase vehicle, and handhelds elsewhere.

Seems they worked about the same, which is not-so-well.  I blame it on my laziness.  I took the RV to the RV dealer to supply and install the CB, they dinged me $700.  They did a piss-poor job of it. 

I heard the same many times, the install and antenna are the most import, the price of the unit is secondary.

Offline fredvance

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2008, 02:41:05 PM »
I bought a Radio Shack cb& mag. mount antennae. On the way to SW I stopped at Flying J and bought a cobra hand held. The rat shack hardly worked The Cobra was great worked almost to wendover.
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2008, 08:15:27 PM »
Some radio comments -- take 'em for what you want:

Our truck's CB is a Radio Shack, I think (I've had it for years and use it only at race events) and works fine.  It's wired to the 12VDC through the cigarette lighter.  There was a comment asking if the radio should be hard-wired to the 12VDC supply -- I don't think there'd be any advantage.  If you get electrical noise, such as alternator whine you might be able to install a filter inductor in the supply -- and the cheapest would be something like the transformer that radios USED TO USE, when they had tubes, to supply the low-voltage for the filaments.  I've done this -- worked fine.  If you've got spark plug noise you're likely to have a difficult time getting it to go away, but making absolutely sure your radio is well-grounded, at the radio itself to a nearby chassis ground, might help.

Antennas:  Bigger is better.  There's no way around this.  But installation is darned near as important as size, since the antenna must be well-located and well-grounded (assuming it is not a magnet mount style) to work efficiently.  If you don't mind a 7/8" hole in the roof of your support vehicle -- put in a brand-name antenna (Larsen or Antenna Specialists) with an "NMO" style mount.  It grounds itself, and when you remove it you can get a rubber plug to fill the hole.

As Nancy and I were driving to Bonneville a few weeks ago I turned the CB on and set it on Ch. 1.  I heard the course workes loud and clear from about Mile Marker 20 on I-80 -- which is about 12 miles or so from the point from which they were transmitting.  I said hello -- they heard me loud and clear.

SWR (tuning your antenna):  It's important, but if you buy a brand-name antenna (most any, for that matter) it'll come pre-tuned and will work pretty well.  The feedline length is important, too -- and again, most antenna kits that come with coax cable included have the length correct (it should be about 17').  Of much greater importance (and much greater variability) is the connector on the end of the coax cable.  If the connector is factory-installed it's about as good as it'll get.  If you install your own - because you cut off the factory one to thread the wire through the vehicle, for instance -- you probably won't get as good a connection as you had in the first place.  And the connector, if you do try to install it yourself -- is, for all practical purposes, not reuseable.  These days the easily-available connectors use plastic that melts when the connector is being soldered, and that melting makes the whole danged thing work less well.  If you must install a connector -- again, use a brand name with a phenolic insulator, not nylon.

End for now -- Nancy wants to go to the Truckstop/Salt Flats Cafe for supper.  I'll check in again later.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline ol38y

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2008, 10:11:12 PM »
Very good summary Slim.

I just want to reiterate the importance of the coax length. A very good antenna wil still work poorly if the coax is not the right length. Most antennas will say on the package what length coax is required for that particular antenna. Evan a cheap radio with a good antenna and the correct length coax will more then acceptable for the salt.

Just my .02

Larry
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Offline hotrod

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2008, 11:31:00 PM »
Buy a good quality coax like Belden to get low line losses. You want the coax run to be as short a practical, to minimize line losses.
It is commonly believed that there is some "magic" length of coax but it is not true. You want to shortest coax run you can especially if you are forced to run one of the smaller coax sizes like RG58. Line losses on the smaller sizes is about double what it is for the larger and foam core coax.

The idea of a specific coax run length is based on a faulty understanding of how SWR works. It is just easier to get a low SWR with a coax that is a certain length in electrical wave lengths on some setups. A 1/2 wavelength piece of coax exactly repeats the true antenna impedance at its other end. It does not really change the impedance mismatch at the antenna though.

Get or borrow a quality SWR meter, run the shortest coax run you can with quality connectors using teflon or phonelic insulators, good soldered connections and good power and ground connections for the radio and do not settle for an SWR more than about 1.1 - 1.2. At higher SWR's your power losses go through the roof and your actual transmit or receive signal strength is way down from what it should be.

http://www.signalengineering.com/ultimate/coax_basics.html

Larry

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2008, 03:44:24 PM »
63 things you need to know about your CB

Measuring SWR and Things Every CB'er Should Know
http://www.firestik.com/Meas-SWR.htm#SWR%20Testing
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Offline Glen

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2008, 03:51:54 PM »
Wilson Antenna is about 2 miles from my house. They are great people to deal with. I have a Wilson mag mount on my truck and a Cobra CB. I can hear 20 + miles and have talked from the top of White Horse Summet in Nevada to the salt. The SWR match is critical. Making sure all connections are tight as well.
The Pilot station in West Wendover has a lot of CB items. The also sell a neat device that hangs on the mirror with a pull back feature that keeps the mic from under your butt.
Glen
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2008, 06:34:33 PM »
The "common belief" about a magic line length for the coax is true.  There is a benefit in getting the feedline cut to a correct length.  To some it may not be of much importance, but there is a benefit.  The correct length is approximately one-quarter of an electrical wavelength times the velocity factor of the feedline.  I say approximately because a few other factors, such as the connector, the quality of the connector, and other variables, make it difficult to specify precisely -- but an optimal length can be determined with appropriate test equipment. 

Now - will the average user be able to discern a difference between "the shortest possible" and the optimal length?  Not very likely -- in that in a feedline only a few feet long (it's difficult to bury 100 feet of coax in a car that's 15 feet long) the losses won't be much different from perfect to okay.

By the way, it's true that the loss in a small coax, like RG58U, are quite a bit higher than in one of the big lines -- like RG8U.  But at CB frequencies the difference isn't all that much, especially when considering that we're (again) only talking about a short run.  Make that line 200 feet long, like a ham might when trying to get from the radio shack to his 100-foot-high antenna that's mounted on a tower 50 feet from the house -- yeah, then there's a big difference.


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Offline edweldon

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2008, 01:28:17 AM »
A ton of good info here.  Many thanks, guys.  Much to chew on. 
I'm trying to figure out a place to mount something like the Cobra 29 inside my Toyota.  Also looking at the model 75 that puts everything in the handpiece and thereby solves the problem of where to put it.  I need to study the antenna selection and installation closely and try to understand the ground plane concept better.  I think I'll find most of my answers in that lengthy Firestick article. I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with the wire rat's nest in the front seat and those cigarette lighter connectors.
Ed Weldon
Captain Eddie's Day Old Fish Market -- home of the Bonneville Salt Fish
Featuring the modern miracle of mechanical refrigeration.

Offline DCarr511

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2008, 07:50:23 AM »
Ed.. I am going through the antennea choice again also right now. I want to keep a magnetic base, but I dont the cable going through my rear door anymore ... especially if I go with the larger cable.

I connected my CB power and ground at my fuse block, found an emoty KOEO ( key on engine off ) male connector and put a female spade connector on the hot wire and then used a round connector and found a small bolt that I hooked it uo to. Clean install and easy to remove if needed. No cutting, splicing or lighter plugs to fall out.

I have heard nothing but good about the Wilson line of antennea's .. can get a bit pricey, but worth it now that I keep the CB in my truck and use / rely on it while traveling.

Offline DahMurf

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Re: CB radios for the Salt
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2008, 10:44:37 AM »
We brought our portable handheld radio shack CB with us and it worked great for listening (when I could figure out what channel they were on). We didn't try to talk to anyone so no clue on the outward transmit. We were a spectator vehicle. The tow vehicle had the proper CB.


Click picture for link to Radio Shack Site


I believe the key to this unit working well is the add on antenna

Click picture for link to Radio Shack Site


This is a great option if you're mobile support but not the actual tow/chase vehicle. Many people inquired about it's use while we were out there so I thought I'd add this on as a portable option.

Debbie
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