Author Topic: Laminar Flow Separation  (Read 24214 times)

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Offline thundair

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Laminar Flow Separation
« on: May 08, 2008, 01:00:10 PM »
I was watching a show about supercavitation where a torpedo was launched with a blunt nose and air was forced out of it. This put a air bubble around the body that ended at the tail to allow control with the reattached fluid flow.
That being said:
 I wonder when you see the laminar flow of most airfoils detach about 20% in, and reattach for the control surfaces. It seems that once it detaches and the parasitic eddies start to form, I question how critical is the nose piece that allow the smooth entry.
In truth it just moved the drag further down the liner.
Has anyone done any studies on engineering a planed detach to make a pocket if you will, just big enough for the liner and short enough to reattach to leave the trail free of parasitic drag.?/?..     :? 
This would only work at the designed speed as it would grow in diameter and length based on speed.
I was thinking along the lines of a hollow point bullet.

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Offline Harold Bettes

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2008, 01:25:45 PM »
Howdy All, :-D

The use of bleed air from the compressor(s) on jet engines has been used to change the shape of the airfoil on some US military aircraft. The wings were very thin units that had their shape changed by holes in the wings that used the high pressure bleed air for low speeds and landing where the changed shape aerodynamically allowed more lift than that of the skinny wings. :-o At the time the particular aircraft had covers that were placed on as soon as it taxied to the ramp and was considered a secret of monumental effort at the time. That was in about late 50s and throughout the late 60s. The starfighter is still flown today by the German air force. :lol:

The use of redirected air to change the drag characteristics is certainly not a new technology. :roll:

The reshaping efforts of some fluids controls systems is a technology that is under constant change even up to the pliable skin techniques that seals use. :evil:

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Offline tomsmith

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holey wings
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2008, 02:22:39 PM »
If I remember right, the idea of perforating the tops of wings with thousands of itty bitty holes and bleeding air through them didn't work out.  They kept clogging up, for one thing.  By the way, does anyone remember skin radiators as used on thirties racing seaplanes?  That did work.  The problem with using them might be slicing yourself on the fins; they would also probably be hard to make.
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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2008, 10:20:13 PM »
I have been mentally messing with the idea of a multi stepped body that, at given increments would "skim" off the air flow just before the transition to turbulence. This skimmed off air from these steps would then be directed into a common graduated internal body tunnel that would vent behind the vehicle.

I see no reason that after every “step” in the body, airflow would not be attached and depending on the Reynolds number and hypothetical speed of the vehicle the flow could remain attached the entire length, if the steps were placed at the correct distances and at the correct height for the desired speed.


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Offline interested bystander

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2008, 11:47:51 PM »
Waaay beyond our comprehension!

Next subject!
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Offline tomsmith

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2008, 11:40:57 AM »
I think Jonny is talking about "sharkskin" like some high tech racing bathing suits are using.  I.e., roughness in the right direction.  Then again, maybe not.
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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2008, 12:45:47 PM »


Here is a crude 3d rendering of what I was talking about.

Just before the air flow would become turbulent it would be "controlled" by being skimmed off and directing it into the internal tunnel. Once the flow is directed into the tunnel the flow past the transition would then be attached.
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"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2008, 12:55:22 PM »


Here is a crude 3d rendering of what I was talking about.

Just before the air flow would become turbulent it would be "controlled" by being skimmed off and directing it into the internal tunnel. Once the flow is directed into the tunnel the flow past the transition would then be attached.


I understood what you are getting at, but wonder about a couple things.  First turbulent flow comes in all kinds of degrees of turbulence.  When the flow separates and becomes turbulent I feel on a good shape this is very minor turbulence.  Now if you could duct the air into the tunnel were is it now going to go.  One is it will could have bad aero in the tunnel and two it has to come out somewhere.  Now on a car that is really dirty in the back you could put it there and maybe that is what you have in mind.  On a lakester or streamliner where you can really work on the back of the car you have a problem with how that tunnel and air would exit.  Also you would have to be skimming air off of the whole surface if the idea did work and that would mean that the tunnel would have to be everywhere and likely cause the car's frontal area to increase and then you might loose more than you picked up with a better Cd.

These are my observations and just based on a gut feeling, so don't let them slow you down it trying your idea.

c ya,

Sum

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2008, 04:08:22 PM »
I agree with Sum, once the air is "skimmed" from the outside it is now inside the body and still causing drag. Doesn't look to me that we have gained anything. At the speeds that a typical B'ville car goes even on the best streamlined cars the air becomes turbulent almost immediately, the Reynolds numbers are based upon a length dimension and velocity, so at 200 mph the number gets high pretty quickly and the air is turbulent. It is not the fact that it is turbulent that causes drag, it is when it is turbulent and unattached, that is what make drag. If you look at Cds on streamlined shapes you will see that they actually go down after the air becomes turbulent (but still attached).

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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2008, 04:17:41 PM »
Laminar flow is something you see in the wind tunnel under controlled circumstances. The air you are piercing is rarely just sitting there. If there is any wind at all you are piercing a turbulent environment.

Take a model of your vehicle and plunge it into the pool at a high rate of speed. What? A big splash? Dang, you'd think it would go into it like sliced butter.

Theory, theory, theory. Just go out and run. Once you break the existing record then maybe you can go to the wind tunnel and fine tune it for better.
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Offline Loose Goose-Terry#1

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2008, 08:20:05 PM »
I agree with Sum, once the air is "skimmed" from the outside it is now inside the body and still causing drag. Doesn't look to me that we have gained anything. At the speeds that a typical B'ville car goes even on the best streamlined cars the air becomes turbulent almost immediately, the Reynolds numbers are based upon a length dimension and velocity, so at 200 mph the number gets high pretty quickly and the air is turbulent. It is not the fact that it is turbulent that causes drag, it is when it is turbulent and unattached, that is what make drag. If you look at Cds on streamlined shapes you will see that they actually go down after the air becomes turbulent (but still attached).

Rex

 :-D How about using vortex generators like those used on the top side of the wings of aircraft to break up the laminar airflow and "create" controled turbulance? :?

Terry
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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2008, 12:34:38 AM »
OK, there is no way to say this without sounding arrogant so please accept that I'm not trying to come off that way.

I am a professional aerodynamicist; I deal in physical reality and proven science.  In the area of subsonic flow applicable to LSR from 100 to 500 mph there is no theory, only well known aerodynamic principles that have been proven for over half a century.  It is regretable that this long-proven science is not taught in any easily understandable form for racers.  Since it isn't a lot of folklore rules the pits, especially outside of the big money series.  Colleagues of mine, some of whom are the finest aero scientists in the world, work on the aerodynamics in IRL, NASCAR, and other series that can pay for their work.  All of this said, some fundamental principles would help the people posting here make better aero decisions and more stable and faster cars.

There are three terms that get bandied about a lot: laminar, turbulence, and separation.  To understand the basics of subsonic flow, let's start with the correct pairing and definitions:

The boundary layer is the thin layer between the skin of a vehicle and the free stream, the flow that is going around the vehicle.  In subsonic flow, everything important happens in the boundary layer.

Laminar flow refers to the flow within the boundary layer all going one direction and in an organized fashion.

Turbulent flow refers to the flow within the boundary layer mixing both vertically and laterally in a not-so-organized fashion. 

Turbulence is a generic term for disorganized air flow.  It is not used by aerodynamicists since it can mean anything from wind shear, to vortex flow, to separation.  These effects should be referred to by their proper terms.

Attached flow refers to a boundary layer that follows the contour of the vehicle.

Separated flow refers to a boundary layer that has detached, or separated from the vehicle surface and is no longer influenced by the shape of the vehicle.  Separated flow includes both organized and disorganized flow.  Organized flow includes vortexes that are stable such as flow from a vortex generator.

Now for the hard part:  Laminar flow can separate without becoming turbulent, and turbulent flow that is attached has less drag than laminar flow that has separated.

So to describe the condition of the boundary layer at any given point on the vehicle, flow is always laminar or turbulent and separated or attached.  This is not semantics, using these words incorrectly will guarantee poor performance.

Most streamlined LSR vehicles have laminar flow over the first few percent of their noses.  Then the flow hits some surface imperfection and trips to turbulent flow.  Turbulent flow has more energy in the boundary layer than laminar flow and therefore tends to stay attached.  Unless it encounters something blunt or sharp, the flow will accelerate as it flows around the widest point of the vehicle.  As it does, it loses pressure and this sucks the flow to the surface.  So it stays attached and has low drag.  Once the flow reaches the area of the vehicle where it has to contract, it must slow down to free stream velocity and recover the lost pressure from the high velocity.  As the pressure in the boundary layer increases, it can separate.  If this pressure recovery happens too quickly or is combined with pressure recovery from another area (like a parachute fairing or wheel strut) the flow will separate.  Separation causes high drag.  In most cases, a small amount of separation creates more drag than the skin friction of the entire rest of the vehicle.

If the flow hits something blunt or sharp, it can separate.  Once separated, the flow is almost impossible to re-attach.  Separation is the largest component of drag on every LSR vehicle I have seen with the sole exception of BUB 7.

Supercavitation refers to the use of air or ionized gas to reduce the shear forces in the boundary layer of a WATER borne vehicle.  Hypersonic air vehicles ionize the boundary layer due to aerodynamic heating and this reduces drag at velocities that we will not see in lsr in our lifetimes.

Sucking the boundary layer into the vehicle and venting it out the back reduces drag and takes power.  Suction is especially effective when it reduces or eliminates separation.  In particularly good designs, suction can create negative pressure drag, or thrust.  Unless the suction is part of the rules-legal engine system, I would protest it as a second power source and win the protest.
Laminar flow is something you see in the wind tunnel under controlled circumstances. The air you are piercing is rarely just sitting there. If there is any wind at all you are piercing a turbulent environment.

Take a model of your vehicle and plunge it into the pool at a high rate of speed. What? A big splash? Dang, you'd think it would go into it like sliced butter.

Theory, theory, theory. Just go out and run. Once you break the existing record then maybe you can go to the wind tunnel and fine tune it for better.
Dean LA is right about the most important thing: TEST.  The one thing I can add to that is to put yarn tufts on your vehicle.  Run it and photograph it; video is good too.  The yarn tufts will make the boundary layer turbulent, but as I pointed out before: it already is.  Separated flow will show up like a sore thumb with yarn at as little as 60 mph, so we can (and SHOULD) do this long before we ever get near Bonneville or Elmo.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 04:15:54 AM by Blue »

Online John Burk

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2008, 01:10:21 AM »
Blue

Does dumping exhaust through flush ports in the forward sides of a streamliner lower drag because it's hot or does it increase drag by creating seperation ?

John Burk

Offline Harold Bettes

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2008, 01:46:24 AM »
Blue and All, :-D

Well stated. 8-) Hoerner would be proud of your very practical approach. :-o

Land borne aero is indeed much different than the aircraft that so much more has been studied. Excepting the common ground of terms and conditions, most folks don't want to take the time and effort to test, but you laid it out very well. :lol:

Regards to All,
HB2 :-)
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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Laminar Flow Separation
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2008, 09:21:22 AM »
Very well stated---you or any of you buddies---worked with EXPOSED wheels--as on a lakester????????   :-D
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