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Author Topic: rebuild diary  (Read 13848 times)
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bak189
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« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2008, 04:06:33 PM »

Sorry Willie,  in roadracing sidecars we "fly the wheel" all the time.......if done properly it is perfectly safe.......and in roadracing it is done with a passenger in the chair....................................................................
The sidecar record I set in 1991 at Bonneville....on running both way (in those days we ran up and back) I flew the chair wheel to the point that the wheel had stopped and when I set it back down it was a real thrill (no ballast required by SCTA/BNI...maybe this is why FIM/AMA has a ballast rule to keep it a real 3 wheel sidecar)
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bak189
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« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2008, 04:25:26 PM »

I should point out that if you want to "fly the wheel" (and it is easy to do under SCTA/BNI no ballast rules) one has to build/set-up the sidecar outfit a certain way................................cheating..NO
just smarter....... then the other guys.........................
Having been in sidecar roadracing for 50 years
certainly has been very helpfull in the last 38 years in LSR..................................................................
 
Retired now..........the secrets are out......................
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willieworld
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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2008, 05:25:13 PM »

bob  maybe you are "smarter" than me but i cant for the life of me see any advantage in flying the sidecar  --my sidecar has 1 sq. ft. frontel area if the wheel is on the ground or not --rolling restence not enough to bother --you could also drive your car on 2 wheels but to what advantage ---when you compare roadraceing sidecars to lsr sidecars you are compareing 2 different vehicles  to 2 differant types of racing and i think a properly designed lsr sidecar will out run a roadraceing sidecar power being equel   just my openion  willie buchta

and dont forget the ballest (132 lbs) doesnt have to be carried on the sidecar
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 05:28:07 PM by willieworld » Logged

willie-dpombatmir-buchta
bak189
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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2008, 06:27:14 PM »

Willie, you right that a LSR sidecar most if not all the time will out run a roadracing sidecar in top speed, in fact, this was proven last year at the BUB event, when we had 2 of the latest roadracing outfits run in RWYB.  And you are also right regarding where the ballast for FIM/AMA can be mounted.......in fact the 132lbs. can be mounted in such a place to help
"fly the wheel"  But you are wrong regarding the drag/rolling resistance of the sidecar wheel.
A sidecar has one corner steering....one corner driving.....one corner dragged along....and even if it feels like the outfit is going in a straight line
it is not.....for one thing we have 
 toe-in on the chair-wheel.....Drag!.....and the outfit
is always "driving" into the sidecar side of the outfit....something you noted a few months back.....keeping the chair wheel off the ground will make for a faster run,......but you got to know what you are doing.........this is why we have
3 times National Roadrace Champion Larry Coleman driving our outfits.
I alway like to quote my late friend Mike Burns
(himself a outstanding all around sidecar racer and LSR record holder)  " A sidecar is inherently a unstable vehicle.....but it will stand up by itself"
RIP...Mike
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John Noonan
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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2008, 06:50:43 PM »

Regarding, using flat expanded metal for the sidecar 12x32 platform...............we found in racing our smaller displacement  (350c.c. and smaller)
sidecars at BNI (where no ballast is required)
the "solid" platform effected the handling by
 "lifting" the sidecar..........using expanded metal corrected this problem...............on the larger displacement outfits there must be enough weight.........so the "normal" platform works just fine...................................................................................
P.S. On Johns awsome 216mph outfit the platform
is high off the ground this somewhat prevents the chair lifting.......plus he may be using some ballast in the chair......................................................
Or he may be "flying" the chair wheel.........only John knows for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Bob,

I usually find your comments and knowledge enlightening however in a few of your posts regarding me you have stated I either "could be" or "maybe" flying the sidecar wheel on our bike.
 When you have a platform such as mine that is very stable you have no advantage to "flying the wheel" as at the speeds we are running and also the height of the platform it would not handle (not too mention the drive wheel is a flat profile and if I was on one side from "flying" the bike would not be able to have the required traction needed) however maybe when running at a much slower speed like your own Turbo Charged Hayabusa sidecar (160mph?) you can run with the wheel "flying" ?

  As you know this side car platform now has the fastest 3 records anywhere 209+ 212+ and 216+ mph, as I stated before if you think I am running the third wheel off the ground on any run you are incorrect, I will refrain from stating that you have been drinking like I did the first time you brought this up however if you make comments like this again I will wonder as to either your mental state or your sobriety.

Take my word for it, the wheel stays on the ground, I do seem to remember that your sidecar did fly the wheel one time about a 100 feet from the starting line however I seem to remember that it went back "down" quickly.

Have a great day.

J
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bak189
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2008, 08:17:39 PM »

John, we have to be nice on the NEW forum, so I won't bother to answer your insulting remarks about my drinking habits and mental state or your remarks about my SLOW sidecar record set
in 1991 with a Kawa/Turbo......that was before you were born.......Right...............................................
See you at El Mirage this Sunday............................
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John Noonan
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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2008, 09:50:16 PM »

John, we have to be nice on the NEW forum, so I won't bother to answer your insulting remarks about my drinking habits and mental state or your remarks about my SLOW sidecar record set
in 1991 with a Kawa/Turbo......that was before you were born.......Right...............................................
See you at El Mirage this Sunday............................

Bob,

Actually I have followed all forum rules and only responded (once again) to your false, incorrect assumptions. And since you also are incorrect about my age I will tell you (try not to forget this time) I am 41...and you better get that swing set with wheels together to run a good number and still to this day I would assist you to either tune or build you a system to run the speeds you have been denying the rider..unless he is happy with running slower a Turbo Hayabusa for the last several years than with the old school mill from Kawasaki that he ran in 1991..either way I will look forward to seeing you at El Mirage.

Take care.

J

« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 09:53:15 PM by John Noonan » Logged
bak189
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« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2008, 11:08:16 PM »

41 years old...John I got it.....born in 1967...right?
I remember the year well....that was the year I made my first million dollars making and selling
M/C frames....................................................................
Sorry Willie, for John and I hyjacking the thread
See you both this Sunday...........................................
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John Noonan
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« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2008, 11:45:58 PM »

Actually it is called "hijacking" and the year was 1966 afro


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kontinental
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« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2008, 03:33:15 AM »

Frank, your sidecar looks great...............the 12x32
sidecar platform is also part of the rules for
the BUB AMA/FIM rules................as I have noted in the past the rule however, does not state that the platform has to be "solid"......we have used expanded metal.....cuts down air-drag...............
Good luck at Speedweek..........................................
Bak,
I'm afraid the additional weight of an expanded metal vs a plain aluminium plate would be a disadvantage for our 50cc small engine. undecided
And we use a part of the platform as a sponsors displaying surface !!... cheesy
Regarding the flying chair, and probably because of our platform important height (it was the target),
we didn't experience this problem during any of our testing sessions.
We've tested the outfit with different ballasts, the smaller one beeing 5 kg.

Frank.
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...ša va bien se passer... http://www.lestriplettesdebonneville.com
bak189
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« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2008, 10:27:01 AM »

Frank, you are right the steel expanded metal might be to heavy for your small outfit.  We do have alum. expanded here but it is hard to find.
Good luck, how fast do you expect to go???

John, I know that there is no way for you to "fly the wheel" with the big, flat tire you are using....
........I just like to rattle your cage......and it ALWAYS works.......the speeds you get out of your
'sidecar" are really outstanding......now make a igger platform and put Bob M. in the chair.........
anybody who can ride that big twin-engine Harley has no fear...........................................................
By the way I will be increasing the sidecar purse at the BUB this year......Money John......Real Money
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Super Kaz
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« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2008, 02:11:20 AM »

two more races in the dirt before bonneville -- i dont think john or anyone else who runs a sidecar would fly the chair not a safe thing to do      willie buchta

Being an Old rookie{at El mirage and Racing a side car} I can tell you Bak189 John's Bike was the smoothest most stable bike I can remember racing ,and it took everything I had to keep her under 5000rpm in 6th cry!It was like finally getting the Hottest chick on the Planet alone IN Bed,and Naked and I HAD TO BEHAVE angry or John , Bob ,and the Rest of my SDRC would have done BAD Things to me shocked!It's The Finest 3wheeeled side Hack ever built for LSR Plain and simple afro!
Hope to see you all the this weekend {GOD WILLING}!!!!!!
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kontinental
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« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2008, 02:37:39 AM »

Bak,

The top speed we've reached at sea elevation was 83 km/h, i.e 51,875 mph  shocked  rolleyes, in sidecar form.
We've had a test session in a French town that's also called Bonneville and is located at 1200 meters, which is close to Bonneville, Utah elevation.
The temperature and surface conditions were far from beeing similar, so the loss of performance was limited.
I'm currently corresponding with John Romero, that ran a 2-stroke non sidecar moped Express 50cc at Bonneville,
we will probably able to estimate the loss.

We are using a zero toe-in configuration on the sidecar outfit, along with the wheel far forward from the rear m/c one.
This seems to work fine for our small displacement and power engine, both in terms of rolling resistance and stability.
But the rolling resistance isn't zero : we've conducted a one-shot test run while removing the sidecar outfit, in solo form,
and I've reached a slightly higher (85 km/h) after only 300 meters (instead of 900 in s/c form),
then I had to cut the power since the sprocket ratio was obviously far too short  smiley.
We will be conducting a last test session on next Wednesday,
with the goal to test the m/c version regarding its stability and top speed habilities.

Our racing machine is called Saline Contender. http://www.lestriplettesdebonneville.com/Pages/Album/AlbumDetail.aspx?Rubrique_Id=7&Galerie_Id=185
Saline Contender will compete both in s/c and m/c versions, but with different mud guards,
since the rules are more restrictive in m/c, even in special construction class.

Regards,
Frank.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 02:44:49 AM by kontinental » Logged

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bak189
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« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2008, 09:53:11 AM »

Frank, many thanks for all the great information
Being that your outfit is small displacement and light in weight, zero toe-in on the chair wheel
will work for you.........................................................
Bon chance mon ami................................................
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bvillercr
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« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2008, 10:02:32 AM »

Now back to Willies rebuild. grin
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