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Author Topic: Water against detonation with Nitrous  (Read 28781 times)
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John Noonan
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286 200+ mph time slips. 252 mph on a dirtbike




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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2007, 11:49:51 PM »

2 one for each cylinder --another thing is when i flowed the jets i didnt want to waste nos so i just flowed them all with gas i know gas and nos doesnt flow the same but i was just looking for a ratio between the fuel and the nos jets--i should back up and say this i didnt flow anything until the race season was over  as a mater of fact i didnt even have a fuel presure guage until the end of the season when i flowed the jets--i did keep a good record of all my runs and the best ones were when the nos jets flowed 80 to 82 percent of the gas jet (both jets were flowed with gas as i said before at 6 lbs of fuel presure )  if any one wants i will give you a list of jets that i ran this year  --my engine is a stock 984 cc buell (harley) very mild head port and a set of 3 step pipes that i built --i did change head gaskets and the engine is 10.5 to 1 compression  3.50 bore with 3.125 stroke --i shift at 7000 rpm  --the nos is activated at full throttle ---------willie buchta
Willie,

What ya going to do to the be-last to get it a record or two?

What hp are they stock?

J
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willieworld
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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2007, 08:12:56 PM »

hey john  dont let anyone else read this--the b-last is a detuned xb9 (the motor i run) so for sure a xb9 head and piston and cams --with 10.25 to 1 compression the b-last should make 38 hp that should be enough for sheri --she will try and set the 500 cc sc-pg--- sc-pf---sc-pbg and the sc-pbf records  we arnt sure she can do it but if she can get close she will have a low start number     willie buchta
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willie-dpombatmir-buchta
John Noonan
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2007, 08:58:10 PM »

hey john  dont let anyone else read this--the b-last is a detuned xb9 (the motor i run) so for sure a xb9 head and piston and cams --with 10.25 to 1 compression the b-last should make 38 hp that should be enough for sheri --she will try and set the 500 cc sc-pg--- sc-pf---sc-pbg and the sc-pbf records  we arnt sure she can do it but if she can get close she will have a low start number     willie buchta

What kind of HP # can they be made to and still be durable and stay together.?  I saw the first blast when Buell was doing the testing and it looked like a bunch of left over Buell parts minus one cylinder.... afro
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Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2007, 09:34:24 PM »

--another thing is when i flowed the jets i didnt want to waste nos so i just flowed them all with gas i know gas and nos doesnt flow the same but i was just looking for a ratio between the fuel and the nos jets--i should back up and say this i didnt flow anything until the race season was over  as a mater of fact i didnt even have a fuel presure guage until the end of the season when i flowed the jets--i did keep a good record of all my runs and the best ones were when the nos jets flowed 80 to 82 percent of the gas jet (both jets were flowed with gas as i said before at 6 lbs of fuel presure )   ---------willie buchta

Willie, who says it doesn't pay to be lucky.  The ratio should be by weight, N20 to fuel (about 6:1 is OK, 5:1 is richer and loses HP only slightly), results all affected by pressure of fuel delivery and bottle pressure.  So you are probably running very rich, since you are comparing jet delivery and gas weighs more than N20.  But with that said, ya can't argue with positive results can ya....  grin


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
willieworld
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2007, 11:41:15 PM »

john you sound pretty intrested your not going to build a b-last for 08 are you --all of the parts are the same except the flywheels(single rod insted of two) the piston lower compresion and the head bigger combustion chamber  --motor has 3.50 bore and a 3.125 stroke 500cc the motor i run is 1000 cc same bore and stroke but 2 cylinders ----

stainless read my other post again --when i did my flow tests i flowed gas through the nos and the gas jets the reason for doing that was to make sure that each pair of jets that i had flowed the same (some did and some didnt) i ran a  smaller nos jet than gas --example when i ran a 16 nos jet i ran a 18 gas jet --the ratio was between these 2 jets and  both were flowed with gas --the biggest jets i ran were 28 nos and 32 gas --im new at this nos thing and that is the only way i could figer out how to do it without wasting lots of nos  it worked for me --i run a nos and a gas jet on each head  the motor made 77 hp on gas and 112 on the bottle -- lucky yes   willie buchta
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willie-dpombatmir-buchta
aswracing
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« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2007, 11:03:51 AM »

John is right, the Blast top end is made of leftover Buell tuber parts, not XB parts.

The Blast came out in 2000, well before the XB line which came out as an '03 model. So even though it's lower end is similar to XB's, and has the 3-1/8 stroke of the XB9, the top end is the older tuber stuff. The head is actually the old "Lightning" head, with a 62cc chamber and 10 degree squish shelf and smallish valves (1.715 intake, 1.580 exhaust). The piston is the 15 degree domed "Thunderstorm" piston. They paired the small chamber Lightning head with the domed Thunderstorm piston because shortening the stroke took away a lot of compression, and those were parts they had sitting around that could get the compression back to something workable. It's still only 9.2:1, though.

The factory mismatched 15 degree dome and 10 degree squish shelf creates something of a fuel trap at the o.d., but honestly, from the factory there's usually so much squish clearance that it doesn't matter anyway.

When they came out with the XB9 they did a better job, a pear-shaped 62cc bathtub chamber with flat (zero degree) squish bands on each side, and a bigger rectangular dome on the piston that sticks up into the chamber, giving 10:1. Not the best design, as fuel coming out of the squish band hits the dome and has to turn a corner, but it works reasonably well and it's easy to manufacture. Very easy to cut a 15 or 30 degree shelf into that head and use a different piston, though.

I fiddled with one of these motors when they first came out. They're pretty tough. Here's what I ended up getting out of, at 515cc:



We took it to the salt flats once, but broke it. At the time, there were no single-cylinder ignition modules available that would allow me to raise the rev limit from the factory 6500rpm number. So I used a module off a Big Twin, that had a 5500rpm limit. Since it was only seeing half the pulses, the rev limit effectively was 11,000 rpm.

Well, we got the jetting dialed in, and my wife, who was riding, took off, and the motor was set up to be peaky as hell, and when it came on the pipe, it really came on the pipe, and spun the tire, and overrev'ed the motor, and dropped a valve. I found the tip of the valve (from the groove up) amidst the debris, it tore it right off.

I put it back together but never did drag it back out to the salt, eventually detuned it for street and sold it.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 12:35:54 PM by aswracing » Logged
willieworld
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« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2007, 12:40:12 PM »

the blast motor that i have has the early head design but with a large combustion chamber with a flat squish area and a flat top piston very nice numbers on the dyno but that cc would put you in the 650 cc class  --lots of rpm --i did the same with the ignition but changed the pick up to and went with a sportster screaming eagle ign module --what cams and lifters did you run   thanks for the info  willie buchta
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willieworld
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« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2007, 01:10:43 PM »

stainless are you saying i should run 6 lbs of nos to 1 lb of gas -- willie buchta
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willie-dpombatmir-buchta
John Noonan
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286 200+ mph time slips. 252 mph on a dirtbike




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« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2007, 01:57:13 PM »

Willie,

I will never build a blast however I would ride one if you or someone else built it.

J

PS, AWS thanks for the info as well.

Take care,

J
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Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2007, 11:04:38 PM »

stainless are you saying i should run 6 lbs of nos to 1 lb of gas -- willie buchta

Willie, I think that is the enrichment number I remember, but to safely stay on the button for 50 seconds or so, I'd shoot for 5 lbs. to 1.  I found wasting 10 to 20 pounds of N20 testing jets was a lot cheaper than flame cutting parts....  rolleyes  Like you we kept the it Juice, if you start at 750 to 800 PSI, the bottle will keep itself there during heavy usage.  Just our experience, yours may vary.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 08:17:02 PM by Stainless1 » Logged

Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2007, 12:01:03 AM »

Stainless yeah I'm with you on the temp of the bottle I try to keep my bottle at 70 degrees which is good for 760psi. I have some really complicated formulas that involves Hydrogen carbon nitrogen oxygen molecules and atomic weights. I can't even type it because its formulas but according to the formulas the chemically correct ratio of gasoline and nitrous oxide is 9.649 pounds of nitrous oxide to 1 pound of gas. For methanol it would be 4.130 pounds. For ethynol it would be 5.740 pounds. For propane it would be 10 pounds for butane it would be 9.930 pounds and for nitro methane  it would be 1.090 pounds.If you want the formulas I can possibly take a pic of them and post it???Now remember thats the chemically correct ratio. With gasoline there are alot of variables like the grade the additives ect. ect. All this math is giving me a headache I gotta go take some medicine.

Willie Buchta
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 12:45:28 AM by willieworld » Logged

willie-dpombatmir-buchta
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« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2007, 10:36:05 AM »

I have some really complicated formulas that involves Hydrogen carbon nitrogen oxygen molecules and atomic weights. I can't even type it because its formulas but according to the formulas the chemically correct ratio of gasoline and nitrous oxide is 9.649 pounds of nitrous oxide to 1 pound of gas. For methanol it would be 4.130 pounds. For ethynol it would be 5.740 pounds. For propane it would be 10 pounds for butane it would be 9.930 pounds and for nitro methane  it would be 1.090 pounds.If you want the formulas I can possibly take a pic of them and post it???Now remember thats the chemically correct ratio. With gasoline there are alot of variables like the grade the additives ect. ect. All this math is giving me a headache I gotta go take some medicine.

Willie Buchta

Willie, remember ideal ratio and what keeps the engine together are not the same.  Gasoline 14.7:1 may be chemically correct, but it won't race well. 
OK, here is something to consider, you add N20 and enrichment fuel to an already tuned engine.  The N20 is richer in oxygen than the air it displaces (it is going to displace the normal air in the cylinder).  You are spraying liquid that is expanding into gas.  Can you calculate the amount of air that is displaced?  How much of what passes through before the exhaust valve closes?  Not really.  The final A/F ratio in the cylinder will vary with RPM, Air Temp, Air Density, and a bunch of other factors.  But we have some help, N20 can run up to 100% rich before losing significant power, it will lose some power, the dyno can probably tell you the complete story for your application.  I would need to go through all my test and run notes to tell you what enrichment ratios worked best for us, but they are not where I live.  Memory tells me stay at 5 to 5.5:1 enrichment ratio and you will make the best power for the longest time.  It won't kill your motor unless you add enough HP to overcome rod or crown strength.  Again, your results may vary, I am not an expert, just a guy with a lot of Bonneville and N20 experiences.
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
willieworld
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« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2007, 12:08:07 PM »

stainless  im still on a learning curve myself --i think the only way to know where i actually was this last year is to flow the nos jets with nitrous oxide which i will do as soon as i get the chance --you are probibly right about me being rich though --better rich than lean --i will let you know  thanks  willie
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« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2007, 05:06:15 PM »

Nitrous scares me.   shocked
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« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2007, 06:00:36 PM »

it also does wonderfull things for ya Guy... hey were ya been..... and why didnt ya come down last time you were out.... ya butthead... grin.
kent
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