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Author Topic: Water against detonation with Nitrous  (Read 29304 times)
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oz
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« on: December 27, 2007, 04:40:56 AM »

Will water Injection deter detonation when used with Nitrous as in, will ignition retard still be nescasary if detonation can be stopped using a water injection system activated with the Nitrous?
Any benefit from this or is it wasted effort?
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2007, 04:49:55 AM »

Detonation control is a must when using nitrous. Using water to control detonation, is really a cover up for poor detonation control. You can do it without water injection. One less system to complicate the system. Proper system setup with proper fuel and retard will work and has been proven in many LSR efforts.
Timing control, system setup, fuel, bottle pressure, engine setup are your main concerns. Anything else is is a cover up for improper setup.
Stick with small hp settings until you have a grip on system control and doing it consistently without engine failure. Nitrous is unforgiving. There have been successfull teams running it for 4+ miles on the salt on smaller displacement engines.

Jon
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panic
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2007, 12:26:55 PM »

The comments re complexity, parts left out do not fail, etc. of course are applicable.
However: using retard only will save the engine - but without a few explosions for testing, only an expensive one (J&S Safeguard) will do so without reducing power so far that the run is wasted (i.e., result is you learned nothing, won nothing, broke nothing). Just backing off 20 degrees is probably safe, but how about 15? etc.
Retard alone will also raise chamber temperature (mix burning later in the power stroke = heat without mechanical energy) - which means it must retard more to offset the nitrous.
Water alone will reduce power but reduces chamber temp, so you'll need less retard for the same degree of safety.
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1212FBGS
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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2007, 12:47:42 PM »

20 degrees.!... 20 degrees.?... you go boom buddy...
kent
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2007, 01:54:54 PM »

How about a better fuel...

Jon
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« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2007, 05:25:02 PM »

i think this nos thing is really simple---make sure what your jets flow i dont care what it says on the jets---know what your fuel pressure is with gas flowing through the jet---know what the ratio of nos to fuel is (by weight)and jet to that ---(my bike is jetted 80 to 85 percent nos to gas (BY WEIGHT) it makes 77 hp on gas and 112 on the bottle-i run 36 degrees total timing in the gas class and 34 degrees total timing in the fuel class --i have 6 lbs of fuell pressure all of the time --i always keep the bottle at about 75 degrees i want liquid comeing out those jets not vapor--no retard junk  no water junk  i keep it simple  --you have to make it to the end of the track 2 times to set a record 3 if you are a rookie--  i ran nos all this year 6 races at el mirage and 2 at bonneville i had a new speedometer in may today it has 149 miles on it  and dont forget to use that air fuel ratio guage  just my thoughts  ---one more thing i run 100 octane  76 pump gas       willie buchta

happy holidays   ride safe
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 05:27:11 PM by willieworld » Logged

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oz
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2007, 05:42:13 AM »

Thanks Guys I was just thinking that as I am only using about a 50-60 hp shot that it isnt going to be a huge amount of retard needed and maybe I could advance the Ignition a bit for more power whilst not on shot and overcome retarding the ignition when it comes in by using water instead of retardation
I have been listening to all that has been said on this Nitrous subject everything will be flowed checked and double checked just keep getting Ideas in the small hours and need to bounce them around a bit.

Cheers Oz
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2007, 08:34:37 AM »

Thanks Guys I was just thinking that as I am only using about a 50-60 hp shot that it isnt going to be a huge amount of retard needed and maybe I could advance the Ignition a bit for more power whilst not on shot and overcome retarding the ignition when it comes in by using water instead of retardation
I have been listening to all that has been said on this Nitrous subject everything will be flowed checked and double checked just keep getting Ideas in the small hours and need to bounce them around a bit.

Cheers Oz

If you are going for 50-60 HP have you considered alcohol??  A lot more forgiving,

Sum
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2007, 09:14:55 AM »

I did think about it but its something else i have no experience of "another black art"
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2007, 09:30:46 AM »

I did think about it but its something else i have no experience of "another black art"

Let's see what someone else might say, but I think it is a far less dangerous and more forgiving "black art",

Sum
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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2007, 10:57:53 AM »

Let me say this about that:having never used n/o I cant say from experience,but from what I hear if you are a little off you can break a lot of pieces, if you are a little off with alchohol you probably wont break anything and it is pretty easy to get close to right with alcohol.
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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2007, 03:45:30 PM »

"20 degrees.!... 20 degrees.?... you go boom buddy..."

It's certainly easy to be wrong, isn't it?
Were you at all concerned with the % of power from nitrous?
Size of the engine?
Original spark setting?

Evidently not.
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2007, 04:24:19 PM »

helloooooooooo  hey what dont you guys understand about my last post ----i did the resurch --i told everyone what i did --i never hurt my engine all year --never had it apart ( except in tech) --never even changed the plugs ---when i decided to run nos i went to my local speed shop the kid that works there set me up with the parts i needed i didnt buy a kit as i had a kit from a street bike --the important thing is to KEEP THE RATIO OF NOS AND FUEL CORRECT( just like a carb or fuel injection ) if you do that you wont have a problem --if you error do it on the rich side--the kid at the speed shop probibly deals with more nos in a week than most people do in a life time ---just my thoughts   willie buchta

if anyone needs more info i will be happy to oblige  as long as your not running in my class  LOL
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 04:26:28 PM by willieworld » Logged

willie-dpombatmir-buchta
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2007, 05:56:39 PM »

willie are you runnin 1 nozzel or 2?
kent
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2007, 07:22:10 PM »

2 one for each cylinder --another thing is when i flowed the jets i didnt want to waste nos so i just flowed them all with gas i know gas and nos doesnt flow the same but i was just looking for a ratio between the fuel and the nos jets--i should back up and say this i didnt flow anything until the race season was over  as a mater of fact i didnt even have a fuel presure guage until the end of the season when i flowed the jets--i did keep a good record of all my runs and the best ones were when the nos jets flowed 80 to 82 percent of the gas jet (both jets were flowed with gas as i said before at 6 lbs of fuel presure )  if any one wants i will give you a list of jets that i ran this year  --my engine is a stock 984 cc buell (harley) very mild head port and a set of 3 step pipes that i built --i did change head gaskets and the engine is 10.5 to 1 compression  3.50 bore with 3.125 stroke --i shift at 7000 rpm  --the nos is activated at full throttle ---------willie buchta
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